Pastor's HONEST Reaction to 3 Nephi | Part 2
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- Опубліковано 11 лип 2024
- What does the Book of Mormon teach about eternal progression, damnation and Jesus in America? This is PART 2 of a discussion between Pastor Jeff and his Latter-day Saint friend.
Don't miss PART 1 of this discussion on 3 Nephi chapters 1-11: • Pastor's FIRST TIME Re...
Special thanks to Greg Matsen from CWIC Media for joining me: @CwicShow
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Hello Saints! My name is Jeff McCullough and I'm a Christian Pastor.
This channel is devoted to fighting criticism with curiosity as I invite dialogue between mainstream Christians and Latter-day Saints. Are members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints Christians? What do Evangelicals and Latter-day Saints agree and disagree about? Join me as I compare and contrast the lifestyle, culture and beliefs of Mormons and non-LDS Christians.
Chapters:
00:00:00 - Reviewing 3 Nephi 1-11
00:02:32 - Sermon on the Mount
00:06:09 - Sheep of Another Fold
00:09:10 - Jesus Blesses Children
00:10:48 - Sacrament in the BOM
00:16:22 - LDS Idea of Damnation
00:26:30 - Pastor Jeff's Favorite Chapter
00:29:52 - The 3 Nephites
00:32:11 - 4 Nephi
#LatterDaySaints #3Nephi #BookofMormon - Розваги
This is so fun and important! I'm looking forward to more conversations and a greater understanding of each other's faith.
Greg, you do an excellent job at explaining our beliefs and doctine.
I totally agree
I totally agree
@@cheyaweber704 I appreciate that, thank you. I am always a little apprehensive doing this, though I enjoy it.
Really appreciate your perspective in helping him understand it with the appropriate nuance.
I served a mission in Russia. There is a strong belief among the faithful Russians that Jesus Christ visited their ancestors. It was great to teach people that Jesus visited other sheep. They would always say "Yes, I already knew that"
I haven't heard about this. That's pretty cool.
@@halloweendad
Sorry
UA-cam keeps deleting
On latterdaysaintmag
Search did Jesus visit Russia after his resurrection. There is a great article and beautiful painting of Christ visiting the peasants of Russia. God bless.
I served in Russia as well. I was there from 2008 in the Russia, Samara mission. I heard the tales and read a story about him visiting the Russian peasants.
I've always felt that there were "other sheep" in addition to those in Jerusalem and the Americas. It's reasonable that in the vast world their would be "other sheep" that Christ is concerned about. I look forward to the day when we get to read their accounts of His visit and their history. More scripture -YAY!
Since Jesus Christ is the savior of the entire world, it only makes sense that he would visit his “other sheep“ in all other areas of the world.
Good discussion. Greg clarified a good amount to help Jeff understand, but Jeff has a great ability to understand what the Book of Mormon means. As an Adult convert at 33 years of age, many years ago, I found the Book of Mormon to make total sense - and true doctrine.
We can call it baptism. We can call it endowment we can call it sealing, but without Jesus Christ and his atonement it is just getting wet is just making empty promises and a marriage that only last until death do we part. Without the power of the atonement, nothing works
Yes...this!🤗
One thing I feel I should share that's important to clarify about our beliefs is that all of the blood Christ shed for us, both during and after the Garden of Gethsemane which includes while He was on the cross, is represented in taking the sacrament. And we tear the bread to represent His torn flesh. Greg does a great job of answering questions and is a great spokesperson and member of the church, but I think it's important to keep in mind as members we aren't perfect and can accidentally say things that aren't exactly right. I know I'm gulity of it. But sources like our church websites, the Gospel Library App, the Joseph Smith Papers, Saints, and other official recources of our church are going to always be reliable sources for answers to questions you may have regarding our church and beliefs.
The Joseph Smith papers say that Baptists, Presbyterians, Methodists, and Catholics are an abomination to God!!!!
I love 3 Nephi. It strengthens my testimony in my Savior. ALL good things come from God and His Son, Jesus Christ
This is BY FAR my favorite method for you to review and analyze the Book of Mormon, with the direct and immediate feedback from a member to provide context and insight!
Me too! Came here to say the same thing!
@@cindymacferran331 Me three
I read 3 nephi at first , later I read the entire Book of Mormon ,and the Book of Mormon convinced me to read the Bible, and now I love both so much , I have a testimony of both books , but more importantly, I love the savior and the human mankind, thanks to 3rd nephi, thank you Jeff nice video , I enjoyed it
Can you explain the racist discrimination in 1 Nephi 12:23& 2 Nephi5? And can you explain why the church discriminates with the priesthood comment with Black people until 1980 and with women up until this very day. And why the church discriminates against the LGBTQ plus community and segregates us from the temple& the “highest level of heaven”? Can you explain to me why Joseph would not let Jane Manning, James enter the temple, or the celestial kingdom as a married, or single woman, and instead told her that her only opportunity to enter would be as his eternal servant?!
@@danielclingen34Jane manning was not to be sealed as his servant. The only reason you would not make it to the Celestial kingdom would be if you chose to act upon sinful things, if you were LGBT+ and did not act on those feelings, then it is up to Christ and you where you will go. We all will have to ask Christ why Bringham Young took the priesthood away from the blacks and why it was not restored until 1978. My hypothesis on that would be that since the church was having issues with the government with other things and the perception that we would abolish slavery is why it was removed. And maybe because issues with the Jim Crow laws that were in effect after. Again that is a question we will have to ask Christ.
@@joeshriver778 There is no 'Celestial level' of heaven.
@@Elizabeth-rk3do yes there is, it is the third heaven Paul talked about. 1 Cor 15:40, 2 Cor 12:2.
@@joeshriver778 People thought of the atmosphere as being the first heaven. Outer space was the second heaven. The place where God lives as the third heaven.
I Corinthians 15 is not taking about heaven. The words: heaven, three, degrees, levels and telestial are not in the passage.
There is a unique glory/beauty of things God has created in the heavens. There is a unique glory/beauty of things God has created on the earth. Nothing about levels of heaven.
Revelation 21 and 22 tell us what heaven will be like. Believers will be all together on the new earth and new heaven serving God and Christ. Believers will be married to Christ. (Revelation 19:6-9) No one will be separated on different planets or levels. Women will not be sharing their husbands with other women for all eternity. The 'other women' will not be separated from their families so they can serve as part of your harem of women should you get to the 'top level' of heaven. God doesn't damn people who deny the eternal principle of polygamy.
D&C 132
Heaven is not about what you want but about submitting to what God wants. 💕
I think the biggest thing that we miss when we talk about works is their purpose.. We beleieve that our purpose on earth is to learn to love others the way God loves us. This is how we become like him. The covenants we make through baptism and the temple are designed to help us achieve that objective. We are here to learn and that’s the purpose of works. We develop through works, we are saved by Christ. Understanding that we existed before we came to earth and that our progression was incapable of growing without earthly experiences is crucial.
Evangelicals seem to be saying, we fell because of Adam and we need saving. Christ is enough. LDS says, our progression was incapable of growing so we came to earth in a fallen state. We need Christ to be saved, and we need Christ to progress and be perfected in him.
@@brannonburton5494 Christ imputes/gives his own righteousness to those who repent and believe. It is how Abraham and King David were justified before God.
Romans 4
I have been made perfect.
Hebrews 10:14
For by one offering Christ hath perfected forever them that are sanctified.
Do the LDS ever teach on the New Covenant that Jesus introduces at the Last Supper? The New Covenant is that He fulfilled all the other covenants and laws and ordinances so that we can find peace and rest IN HIS works, not our own. Until we're IN Christ (believing that HE paid the entire tab for our sin bill) we are outside of His peace and rest, both spiritually now, and in eternity.
James teaches about the subject of works in
James 2:14-24
14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food
16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
I love when Greg is in the videos! What a great discussion!
I was quite impressed with your comment about Hell. As a Latter-Day Saint, It has been my belief for a long time that Hell is not a place, but rather a condition of the spirit and not being in the presence of God. I love your videos and your perspective.
I read a book a few decades ago called "Return from Tomorrow" and the enlightenment that Hell is not a physical prison, but is a place where we have placed ourselves away from Christ, subject to those impediments/sins that we have subjected (and enslaved) ourselves to. Our own idols, if you will.
@@jum5238I read this as well, fantastic representation, great book.
Greg brought up such and important point and it seems that this is Jeff's stumbling block. Jeff says there's a lot in the BoM that he very much aligns with but because it may not be proclaimed from the Bible, he pumps the brakes. Greg's point about having Matthew's account only and then having Luke's account brings so much more. That's all the BoM is!
I get the sense, as a member of the church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, that Evangelical churches and other Christian groups impression of us and exaltation, is that we take away in a sense from the glory, from the power of Christ, because we covenant more and believe the promises we receive require us to fulfill them(still impossible without The Savior). What they don’t grasp is how much more Jesus Christ and Heavenly Father would give us if we might receive and take it. We don’t discredit all that He does and has done, rather we credit them with offering more than is understood
Dear Pastor Jeff...this channel is delightful! Thank you SO MUCH for addressing our belief and doctrinal differences with respect and desire for understanding. I so appreciate your approach and the cognitive effort you make to gain knowledge and increase your intellectual and spiritual understanding. 3rd Nephi 17 is my favorite chapter in the Book of Mormon! I felt The Spirit so strongly the first time I read it. It had a profound impact upon me. Now there are many other chapters that have become favorites. But that one is sweet. Thank you for the effort you make and the good you do to teach others of our Savior. I love Him. He is my best friend. He is my Savior and Healer and I love Him with all my heart. Thank you for being good and for teaching Christ crucified and the hope we have through Him. God bless you and your family. Merry Christmas!!!
Culturally we don’t use the cross but certainly recognize, honor, and identify with the meaning of it. In past eras some may have defended our non-use of it but really it’s just a cultural thing in my opinion. My dear wife is a convert and wears a cross from time to time that her mother gave her and I’m grateful she retains that.
Have you listened to Elder Hollands recent conference talk?
@@dl1130 Yes
@@dl1130Elder Holland explains why we don’t use it as an institutional symbol, but the meaning of the cross on a personal level should have deep meaning for all of us and looking at it or wearing it can remind us of that. The first presidency hangs a painting of the crucifixion in their meeting room. Check out John Hilton’s book “Considering the Cross” at Deseret book or look up his blog. It will expand your entire paradigm 😊
@@jerry_phillipsThere is nothing wrong with wearing a necklace with a ✝️ or having the cross displayed in your home. I grew up in the 60's and 70's. The cross was looked upon as if "evil". In my opinion, the church got it wrong! It's a win for Satan to devalue the Cross!
@@dl1130 I think we were a bit more clannish in our beginning which causes us to emphasize our differences. I know what the cross means to my sweet wife.
Remember that it is not the BOM that is on trial, it is the heart of the man reading it.
Does the heart of man want to forsake all and follow Jesus Christ or follow a religion?
John 10:27-29
My sheep hear my voice and I know them and they follow me.
And I give unto them eternal life and they shall never perish neither shall any man pluck them out of my Father's hand.
My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
Thanking God in everything will get you through anything praise God praying for everyone everyday God bless you all
I really love these videos!!! I love seeing the differences and having that bridge of understanding. Love your work Pastor Jeff. ❤
Having a guy like Greg on really adds an interesting dynamic that I really enjoy.
Great discussion. Even though the origin of the word "perfect" was discussed, I'm surprised the textual difference between Matthew 5:48 and 3 Nephi 12:48 was not brought up. In Matthew, the account is, "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect." To the Nephites, it is, "Therefore I would that ye should be perfect even as I, or your Father who is in heaven is perfect." Notice that Christ said added "I" when speaking to the Nephites, but not to the Jews. Even without knowing the word origin, we can ask ourselves what the difference was between those two addresses. Yes, Christ was free from sin ("perfect"), but He was when He spoke to the Jews, too, so why the difference? Either it was missing from the Bible, or He was not yet "perfect" when He addressed the Jews. The difference is that His holy mission was not complete when He addressed the Jews, but it was by the time He spoke to the Nephites. This is why I love having another witness of Jesus Christ. (I like how having the BoM was likened in this video to having only the book of Matthew, then adding Luke.)
Good point. Didn't get to it. Should have covered it.
Your discussion made me think of this scripture
Luke 13:32 King James Version (KJV)
And he said unto them, Go ye, and tell that fox, Behold, I cast out devils, and I do cures to day and to morrow, and the third day I shall be perfected.
That is because it says that the Lord appeared unto the Nephites 'after' He had already ascended to His Father in Heaven so having the Lord descend from Heaven to earth after the Father introduces Him makes sense of the difference, one being perfect (sinless) and the other perfected (complete)
@@CwicShow @mholt --- it was brought up. No it wasn't focused on, but I did pause the video and make some personal notes pertaining to both 48s. I appreciate the discussion and my heart can't help but ache that Pastor Jeff is seemingly reading it not with a questioning prayer in his heart, but a let's compare literary elements and cultural differences. Feel the word, know the word...on the other side of the coin, it would be so hard to give up a lifestyle if he were to join the Church of Jesus Christ and stop making money as a Pastor.
@charliecollins5658
With all due respect, the main reason Christians can not become Latter-day Saints is because they would need to change the God that they worship.
According to the LDS church, 'God' is an exalted man that came from another planet, had to work his way to Godhood, lives near a star named Kolob, practices polygamy, is, along with Mary, the literal father of Jesus Christ, damns people who deny the eternal principle of polygamy (D&C 132), threatened to destroy Emma if she didn't abide by her husband's adultery (D&C 132:54, 64), and worse.
The worship of a created being is idolatry. It is breaking the first and second commandments.
We are to worship the Creator.
On the other hand, the true and living God of the Bible, who spoke the universe into existence, including the star Kolob, offers forgiveness of sins, salvation, eternal life, and exaltation for free. That is how much God loves everyone!
Ephesians 2:8-9
For by grace ye are saved through faith and that not of yourselves it is the gift 🎁 of God; not a result of works lest any man should boast.
Romans 6:23
The wages of sin are death, but the gift 🎁 of God is eternal life through Christ Jesus our Lord.
Hebrews 10:14
For by one offering Christ hath perfected forever them that are sanctified.
By the way, the Doctrine and Covenants teach about paid ministry.
D&C 42:71-73;
D&C 43:12-13;
D&C 51:13-14;
Merry Christmas! 🎄
This is one of my favorite videos you've shared. Both you and Greg shared so much in a kind, thoughtful and understanding way. My heart feels the goodness in learning to understand other faith beliefs. We seems to be very aligned in our love of the Lord. Please continue the discussions. It was great to have Greg a part of the presentation. Thank you for your leadership in bringing our religious worlds closer together.
It's super inspiring to see two individuals with different beliefs having a respectful conversation with each other. This is a lesson in itself and a model of two people trying to follow Jesus. It would be cool to have these two gents "reacting" to teachings from the Bible as well. "Mormon and a Pastor react" sounds like a pretty awesome channel to me and a great buddy comedy :)
Pastor Jeff. I cannot wait to attend your baptism into the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. What a great and wonderful event it will be. Then as you share your journey on the covenant path with the world your work as a s a servant of the Lord will be a great blessing to so many in need of his blessings.
"Except a man be born again he cannot see the kingdom of God."
Jeff has been blessed beyond measure. Jeff knows that his sins have been forgiven. Jesus Christ has imputed/given to him his own righteousness. Jeff already has eternal life and will live forever with his Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. 💕
No one needs a church to get into heaven. Jesus is enough! 🙏🏾
LDS is a cult.
Now that he's in Utah, I think I'm ready to convert to HIS church.
You guys together bring a very special spirit to any conversation you have. I enjoy both of your channels individually and even more your joint conversations.
Keep up the great work, both of you.
Thank you!
"3 Nephi 11 is the Holy of Holies of Book of Mormon".
The analogy Greg gives of having the Book of Matthew and being given the Book of Luke was awesome! Ive never thought of that. You learn more as other details are better remembered. Thats awesome! Very good analogy. You learn different and more specific areas whwre they focus on more through Matthew, Mark, and Luke. Well said, Greg.
As far as the subject of progressing. Progressing is a process, even after this life to learn and grow to become like God. God's glory is the ever expansion of His family, which is interesting that one of the biggest promises he gives to one of his more perplexed Prophet is Abram promising him a posterity bigger than he can even comprehend. God's glory expands and light strengthens even more throughout the creative process. No matter what we aspire to become and eventually reach and become, we still only worship our Heavenly Father. We'll still likely take our seventh day to rest to worship the Father and His infinite love that got us to where we were through the power of the atonement. Even in the Celestial Kingdom, there will still be a Sabbath Day, that will remain an eternal commandment I feel.
As far as works, Greg's absolutely right. The temple covenants and the endowment need to be done, but that's still not enough, its the Grace of Jesus Christ that gives all of that power which then gives us light and knowledge, but it's the Grace of Jesus Christ having the fullness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, through the restoration, that drives us to make those covenants. Jehovah emphasized those in the Old Testament with covenant Israel, and then taught himself and PAUL taught in Acts: REPENT and BE BAPTIZED every one of you. Paul was talking about works. "Oh, that's wrong because he said by grace you are saved alone." Well, the Old Testament does the same thing, on one page it said Moses spoke with God face to face as one man speaketh to another and then turn the page and it says "no man can see God" so we see conflicting statements like that throughout the Bible, Old and New Testaments, but, yes, even with the covenants we make in the temple, it's the Grace of Jesus Christ that drives us to be that covenant making and keeping people to follow his word, but with the just God we see in the New Testament, we also see His mercy with what Paul taught the Corinthians in chapter 15 and 1 Peter where we see God's mercy, with the prophet Elijahs prophecy where the hearts of the children will be turned to the fathers and temple work will be done for those who didnt have the opportunity to learn of Jesus Christ here so, no matter where it seems like God is Black and White, he slips in that grey area too
No man can see Gods face unless the Holy Spirit is in him.
@@jerrysutton7293 You know, that concern comes up quite a bit and it's actually interesting you bring that up and the manner in which you bring that up. I think Greg would suggest that God is a God of law, that He is bound to it. Joseph Smith, Jr. taught that the Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man's and that man was created in His likeness and His image. The Son also has a body of flesh and bones, as tangible as man's. But, the Holy Spirit has NOT a body of flesh and bones, if it were so he could not be able to dwell within us. So, I think Greg might explain similar to what you're saying, that the Holy Spirit has a unique role as a distinct entity, just as the Father is distinct and has a personality and a role, and the Son is distinct and has a role, but put together they are one in purpose to fulfill the will of the Father, and the Father has given them those roles in order to accomplish The Father's purposes. Jesus taught: "I do the will of the Father who sent me." The Holy Spirit, as you suggest sanctifies us, cleanses us before God allowing us to be in the presence of the Father, if the Holy Spirit didn't do so, we may not be able to endure the presence of the Father, and I actually like that you point that out. We know that Moses saw and spake with God (Jehovah, the God of the Old Testament who later took on a tabernacle of flesh to dwell among men as Jesus Christ) face to face as one man speaketh to another. The Old Testament describes God as having a face, as having hands, and as having feet. On the road to Damascus Jesus is seen standing on the right hand of God and Jesus is identified as such and The Father is identified as such, the only personage not described is the Holy Spirit, which is likely doing as you said, quicking the individual to be able to see this.
In the Pearl of Great Price in the Book of Moses, however, we learn that as God speaks to Moses He's giving Moses what we might call "The Temple Experience" where God is showing Moses the earth and all on it but He tells Moses what Moses is beholding has its limits, that He can show Moses only so much and can't show Moses all His works unless Moses beholds all of His glory, which Moses as a mortal man is not able to do.
But, I like how you stated it as you do. Pastor Jeff suggests the philosophy of the TRINITY. With his theory of the Trinity The Father is 100% God, The Son is 100% God, the Holy Spirit is 100% God. They are three different beings but 100% God. You're suggesting that they each are separate and distinct beings of glory and each have a unique purpose. That Holy Spirit has a unique purpose or a role that the other two aren't exactly able to fill. That the Holy Spirit being present enables us to be in the presence of the Father to endure His presence without an Indiana Jones and the Ark sort of experience. But, the Holy Ghost has Godly attributes that make him a God and a member of the Godhead, but is not THE God. The Son is the great mediator who assisted the Father in the creation and is the mediator who fulfilled the atonement as the great Sacrifice. He is our advocate with the Father and is subject to the will of the Father as he can only do what he seeth the Father do. He pleads with his Father asking if there's any other way to accomplish the Fathers mission of the atonement that what he's enduring in Gethsemane but says not his will but the Father's be done. So, Jesus is the embodied Jehovah, and has godly attributes and is a God, but he is not THE God. The Father is the greatest of them all. He is the grand architect, He is the Father of them all and is as the Hebrews teach the Great Elohim that is the head of the Gods. All things are done at His command, according to His will. He is the Father of our Spirits and everlasting to everlasting. The Alpha and the Omega. He is the literal Father of the Son but also the Father of the Spirit of the Son who has existed before and is eternal. The Father is THE GOD we worship and there is none other whom we worship and serve as the Commandment is given. All are subject to the will of the Father including the Son and the Holy Spirit, but the Son is able to speak for the Father or on behalf of Him, hence: Not my will but thine be done and all glory be to the Father. So, they're all God's and a part of the Godhead that are one in purpose, just as the First Presidency of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints govern the Church under the direction of the Great Jehovah, patterned after the order of Heaven. President Nelson is the President of the Church and is separate and is a separate and distinct man who bows to the will of the Son who speaks for the Father. President Dallin Oaks is the First Counselor who follows the instruction of the Prophet and has his own responsibilities and duties as President Nelson requests as given by the Son who receives it from the Father. You then have President Eyring who is the Second Counselor who has his own distinct responsibilities who is listening to President Nelson who does the will of the Son, who does the will of the Father. Listen to the First Presidency are the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles who operate under that chain of command. And the Holy Spirit is there to confirm the will of the Father and the Son nearing witness of the Father and the Son also able to speak for the Father to confirm His will and testify having such a profound impact due to the Holy Ghosts unique and distinct role and together, they all do the will of the Father whose the Grand Architect of the Plan of Salvation, all Members of the Godhead, distinct, but working together in purpose, becoming one in purpose and in mind, unified, as we as the Saints and spirit children of our Heavenly Father should be as one with the Son and thus with the Father.
I really like how you pointed that out. Excellent, sir 👍🏻
The sacrament is so very much symbolic of the atonement. They break the bread they do not cut the bread in pieces ahead of time, but break it in pieces to remind us of what the Savior said he would do.is very meaningful to us. Carol
Another solid video! Love this part of the scriptures 🔥🔥🔥
Very much enjoyed your conversation with Greg and the civil and friendly way you are both able to talk about and share your faith and beliefs. Thank you for what you are doing.
I love listening to you Pastor Jeff, and following along with you on your journey.
You're so kind and articulate.
I love these videos so much. Thank you Pastor Jeff for fostering friendship and understanding between our faiths. 💕
Jeff, I know you have pointed out at least two places in the Book of Mormon where it talks about the importance of work. I think it bears mentioning that the Bible echoes that same idea. See 1 Cor 15:58 "Therefore my beloved brothren, be ye steadfast, unmoveable, always abounding in good work . . .forasmuch ye know that your labor is not in vain in the Lord." Phil 2:12 "Work out your own salvation with fear..." 1 Peter 1:17 "the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work. " I would say that we are saved through the Grace of God, but we are judged according to our works. Why else is there going to be a final judgement? Also, after all we can do, we cannot save ourselves, or resurrect ourselves, we rely on the goodness and Grace of Christ for that.
Hi Pastor Jeff!
I recommend reading "Jesus the Christ" by James E. Talmage. There's a chapter about why we need a redeemer and more. It's LDS literature and has helped me understand the Bible and Book of Mormon.
How is ‘enduring to the end’ not considered works??? I think the real convo is what are the different works between the two religions because if mainstream Christians believe in enduring to the end, then we are all in a sense work based, am I right? Working to stay clear of sin, follow His commandments (atleast the 10 for mainstream), etc
When we talk about enduring/making it to the end as Evangelical Christians, we mean continuing to trust in Christ for our salvation. Whilst we intentionally want to live in the way that God has told us is best in the Bible because as our Creator he knows what’s best for us and it’s a way we can honour and worship him, whether we sin/break commandments/etc has no impact on whether we’ll make it to the end or not. It’s solely about trusting in the death of Christ to wash away our sins, and thus we would reject the concept of a works-based faith/salvation. Hope this clarifies that for you!
This is really cool! I'm glad I get to see the viewpoints of both sides as you discuss these different parts
Christ is the author and finisher of our faith. He created the plan. He is the plan. We can't boast anything of our own strength or understanding by merely following the plan he laid out for us and relying on him fully for every stride we make.
The works we perform aren't our own. They are his. By his grace, are we saved after all we can do. What is all we can do? Giving our will to him and choosing him. Choices which are shown within our hearts and through our actions.
Pastor Jeff, I applaud 👏🏼 your recognition of the significance of the differences between Jesus' Book of Mormon and similar Bible statements. After his resurrection, Jesus himself drew attention to the fact that he was now perfected, and his body (which we should remember) was now resurrected. Good catch!
Great episode. Love the dialogue.
If the Book of Mormon is true, it shows an even more deeply compassionate Christ than is understood in the non-Mormon Christian world as he demonstrated a deeply personal concern for all people in the world beyond his small radius of ministry in the Middle East. As an example, the 10s of millions of peoples in the Americas would never hear about Christ until the brutal conquistadores showed up 1500 years later had he only appeared in the Middle East.
I "found" another passage recently which resonates strongly at so many levels:
Zechariah 10: 6-12
Another great video. I just love seeing people with differing beliefs coming together with a sincere desire to better understand one another. Much respect to both men.
Dear Pastor Jeff: Thank you so much for your gentle and loving treatment of our most sacred beliefs. I have found, over the years, there is much more the faithful of all denominations have in common, than there is which we find different. You prove this to me. As a faithful and practicing Latter-day Saint, I am humbled to call you a brother and fellow believer, and I look forward to that great day when we all sit down at the table together. May you continute to be blessed in your service of Our LORD.
Sid.
I love how respectful you've been through this whole process. I appreciate you being diligent in study and notes and thoughtful with your questions. You can tell you're really interested in learning to understand and learning to love one another. That's the goal.. bringing people closer together and closer to Christ. Excellent work.
Can of worms??
Jean jacket looks really good on you my dude
Also the point you make around 12:00 about Christ showing himself is really awesome, kinda of a steel man argument which shows a sincere desire to understand and that is so respectable
Thanks for sharing the MAJOR differences. This needs to be understood on both sides to help further conversations about truth.
Love the civilized conversation. I’ve learned so much I didn’t understand. Thank you for being an instrument in his hands to save all his children. The worth of a soul is Great in his eyes of our Father. Bless You ♥️
I feel like one of the authors of Omni, I feel like everything to be said has been said and would refer you to them. I loved this! It was respectful, and having Greg there helped me feel like it was a conversation and could hear both sides in real time. Very enjoyable!
In all things give thanks for this is the will of God praise God praying for everyone everyday God bless you all
At a mission conference back in the 80's when I was a missionary Elder Maxwell spoke about all the additional scripture yet to come forth. His view was there was a group from each of the lost tribes that Christ would have gone to, so potentially a record for each tribe. Also the completed JST, the other 2/3 of the gold plates etc. I don't think we'll get those things till Christ comes again, but who knows.
@Hello Saints, this is a great conversation btw, but I would push back on that other sheep as the Gentiles. As you noticed, the Lord used "sheep" and not goats or cows. Sheep knows their shepherd, they respond to his call. If other people are calling a specific sheep it would not respond. It only respond and obey it's own shepherd. That is how bonded the sheep to their shepherd. The sheep would know if it's the shepherd who is calling or not. So the fact that the Lord uses "sheep" or "other sheep" he would definitely refer to only the house of Israel or other people that came out of Israel because of His bond to them through the covenants He made with their fore fathers. So "other sheep" most certainly refer to other people of the house of Israel not gentiles. Lehi came from Jerusalem who's lineage can be traced back to Jacob.
His sheep are those who Hear His voice and follow Him. It’s those who believe in Him and become His disciples that would include the gentiles. All who accept Him become adopted in to the house of Israel. The house of Israel is no longer about needing to be a certain bloodline, most of the Jews (the only remaining blood Israelites in the promise land) rejected Jesus resulting in them being cut off from the house of Israel. It was largely the gentiles who accepted Jesus as the messiah after the disciples went out into the nations. He would have absolutely been referring to the gentiles when talking about His other sheep. His great commission before ascending into heaven was the command for the Jewish disciples to go out into the nations to adopt the gentiles into His house!
24:54 I think we are talking past each other when it comes to faith/works and temple ordinances. LDS believe just like Protestants that there is nothing we can do to EARN our way into salvation. That is clear. But, with regards to exaltation, Jesus has commanded us to make covenants and to receive ordinances. Just like the law of Moses - you are not saved or cleansed from sin by sacrificing an animal and sprinkling its blood on the alter, you are saved and cleansed by the blood of Christ which was shed for us. The law pointed the people to Christ and the people were commanded to perform those ordinances just like Christ has commanded us in modern times to be baptized and make covenants. This is why LDS will cringe when you say that we believe in a ‘works’ salvation. We aren’t earning anything, we are obeying and making covenants and then ‘relying wholly on the merits of Jesus Christ’ who died for us.
Exactly!!
@HelloSaints Jeff, I again applaud you. Here are a few things I'd like to say, your journey has been very impressive to watch. From when I began watching your journey, which is been quite some time at this point, until today you've made incredible understanding. I have noticed that, though you're not looking the potential of it being true, you have a rather large wealth of understanding of the beliefs of the LDS people. I have complete respect for how you've traveled in your journey. I also love that you have found knowledgeable LDS individuals that you both can converse respectfully. Applause to you sir. Without being a friend directly, I would call you friend I am sure. Thanks for what you do.
Best one yet!
The “turn the hearts of the fathers to their children and the hearts of the children to their fathers “ also refers to genealogy, not just temple work
Love these videos! It could be cool to see a video going more into depth on the Three Nephites
I love having Greg (who is well-versed, well-spoken and intelligent) there to immediately discuss/possibly correct a misconception or just to offer the LDS perspective on the spot.
This was my most favorite video that you've ever done! Such a great conversation! I'm starting to think you know my religion better than I do 😂
Good discussion.
Faith without works is dead
You guys have anything new to say? We agree, but not for the reason you think.
As a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints we rejoice with you in our mutual affection of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and of his resurrection and tender mercies. Thought I’d share a thought from the Book of Jacob in the Book of Mormon: 3 Now in this thing we do rejoice; and we labor diligently to engraven these words upon plates, hoping that our beloved brethren and our children will receive them with thankful hearts, and look upon them that they may learn with joy and not with sorrow, neither with contempt, concerning their first parents.
4 For, for this intent have we written these things, that they may know that we knew of Christ, and we had a hope of his glory many hundred years before his coming; and not only we ourselves had a hope of his glory, but also all the holy prophets which were before us.
God bless Pastor Jeff🙏
5:08 you have to understand Jeff, that we believe that all can be in God’s presence, but some will only be able to abide certain levels of his presence. Telestial persons can only understand and abide the Holy Ghost. Terrestrials can understand and abide the resurrected person of Christ. Celestials can only understand and abide the physical resurrection of the Father. To be exalted has to do with desire and choice. And people to one degree or another experience God on a level they are prepared for. Exalted is what you call sanctified or holiness. Testimony is what you call “saved”.
Well said.
Heresy
@@Compulsive-Elk7103 only to modern Pharisees
I love watching this knowledgeable pair compare and learn of beliefs ❤😊I am a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints
Greg's awesome and is a wonderful example of a faithful Latter-Day Saint. He is a great representation of the everyday lay member of the Church. And maybe that's the vibe you're going for. While his answers are good, I'm wondering, Pastor Jeff, if these discussions would be better served, or more fruitful, by asking the same questions of Latter-Day Saints who have the same scriptural and educational background as you do and can articulate more clearly Church doctrines and scripture.
For example, Greg's explanation of the Church's non-use of the cross and the sacrament was a little muddled for me and didn't fully represent my own understanding or feelings on the subject. To be fair, I wouldn't do any better trying to articulate my thoughts on the subject on the spot. And there would be comments just like this one, probably more critical, in the comment section. But I believe therein lies the problem. There is value in speaking with the everyday latter-day saint, but when it comes to more doctrinal questions, speaking to an LDS scholar whose job and passion is theology and scripture who can provide much clearer answers that clearly reflect, not just the doctrines of the church, but the general feelings of its members.
I'd recommend Jared Halverson of the YT channel Unshaken. He works in the Church Educational System, is a Divinity School graduate, and has many evangelical friends. My other recommendation would be Mike Day from the Talking Scripture YT channel. He's a self-professed Bible nerd and gospel instructor.
The closest I think you got to a discussion like that was your discussion with Jacob Hansen on his Thoughtful Faith podcast.
I agree!
I love the doctrine of eternal progression. Being in Gods presence must be great but there’s no way He or us would be happy for eternity not growing in knowledge and understanding. The idea of billions of us and just hanging out in a big room with nothing to do or learn would get old quick.
Except I don’t think God grows in knowledge and understanding, he already knows and understands everything. His glory (which can be interpreted as joy, excitement, zeal, purpose, meaning) is his work which is us. His work and glory is us. What allows God to be fulfilled in eternity is us and watching us grow and become like him because we love him and want to be like him. Not out of force. So our eternal progression will be the same. We will spend eternity helping others. If we don’t enjoy that now, we won’t enjoy that later, and God won’t ask us to do that, but we will be dammed in our happiness because of it.
That's a misconception of Christianity (admittedly many Christians haven't thought a lot about it), but as an evangelical I do believe we learn and grow in our knowledge of God, just as we do on this earth except perfectly. Life will be much as it is know except God's family is complete and we will be perfected without sin. The earth will remade and we will have glorified bodies. But life will be discovery and art and play, just as it is now. We just aren't gods or progress to be a God, because the highest joy is to image the one only God perfectly in glory.
I have appreciated Jeff’s reaction videos with Greg in them more so than the one’s with Jeff reading on his own, simply because I think Jeff can get his answers and clarifications on the spot, rather than just pointing out what does and doesn’t make sense to him.
It’s the difference of reading the Book of Mormon or the Bible with or without a missionary or a Pastor to help make sure your understanding what you’re reading, versus just reading on your own and having a lot of questions still.
I'm excited for The Book of Ether review!
“It’s not an ordinance path it’s a covenant path.” Profound-point made 😇
The sacrament is an opportunity each week for us to not only remember what our Savior did for us, but to repent, and take stock in thinking about how we can better improve our lives and keep our covenants
Love both these episodes! You guys jive so well together wish you two would collab on the regular! You could do shorts and call them a Cwic Hello. 😏
You guys are angels. Love you both!!
Listening to this I was thinking that as a member of the Churchy of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints I think the "works" piece might be better expressed as choices. For instance we believe everyone will have a chance to accept the temple covenants through proxy ordinances for the dead. So it is not like if you didn't do that in life your works fall short and you can't be exalted, rather you have to choose to receive the covenant and keep it. Christ enables us, but we have to open the door and choose to let him in.
You have two options plane and simple. You have damnation and the opposite of damnation is progress. Greg said it perfectly.
And that progress is also eternal learning
Jeff, imagine in the next life you get to learn forever be it astronomy, physics calculus etc The list goes on and on.
Imagine a life here, after where you no longer learn or progress, and as Christ commanded in both the new testament, and the book of Mormon.. be ye, therefore perfect even as your God in heaven is perfect. the opposite of that again, is damnation .
As a latter-day saint, I honestly don’t understand why this concept of eternal progression after we die, is extremely difficult for those outside of our faith to understand
We’re not talking five years we’re not talking 20 years we’re talking eternity
Jeff, let me plead with you after this life. You have the option to continue to learn and grow in progress. That is beautiful. ❤
I do think the idea of progression is a beautiful concept that’s unique to our faith tradition. I believe there is a lot of baggage we add to that, as is human nature, when we could just trust the simplicity of that principle and leave the details we still don’t know to God. I think we gotta fear a lot less, embrace grace, and trust. Keep it stupid simple is my kind of gospel.
You have to remember there is a justice side to God, not just mercy. And judgement stands between the 2. God is just, as well as merciful. Being just means that he will perform justice on those who rejected Him.
Have you been made perfect?
God requires perfection to get into heaven. You need the righteousness of God. Matthew 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect.
I don’t think God continues to learn, He is infinite in all the godly attributes. If intelligence is light, and is eternal, with no beginning or end, then this light in an eternal state would have to be so quickened to be outside of time and in all infinite space. There is nothing God does not know. I think where the progression comes in is in eternal offspring and creations. That is continually expanding. But His knowledge, wisdom, empathy, etc, etc, are perfect and infinite. How long it will take His offspring to reach this stage we do not know. Anyway, that’s my hunch on this.
@@RodneyAD Well said.
I really appreciate your videos and I commend you for your efforts. You are a good example of a peacemaker and bridgebuilder for Christ. I believe many will be needed and will follow your example of striving to better understand one another and our similarities and differences in our faith. One needs to look no further than the history of the Holy Land to know we need more understanding and peaceful respect for one another's differences and beliefs. I really believe we can all get along and experience a peaceful world society, so to speak, but its going to take a lot of help from the Lord and all those who labor with Him. Keep up the great work!
Pastor Jeff, I know you haven’t quite finished the book yet, but I have a question for you.
How is the Book of Mormon different than what you thought it was prior to reading it?
13:30 The cross is all about the resurrection for evangelicals. That is why we display an empty cross. He was the final sacrifice and paid the debt. Being NOT LDS and also married to an LDS woman, I believe their is too much emphasis on Gethsemane.
Good dialog. I was really hopeful you'd touch on 3 Nephi 24 when Malachi 3:8 was quoted. Its neat for us that tithes are touched on in the Old testiment, New testiment, Book of Mormon, and Doctrine and Covenants. Neat verses!
I think the supposed works based salvation of required temple ordinances is misunderstood. Just because we believe that Jesus commanded us to do certain things and receive certain ordinances doesn’t mean that we don’t believe it is only by His grace that we are saved. I’m not sure if this is the best way to explain it, but yes, we must do those things that He commanded us in order to qualify for Him to save us and to accept His atonement for us. But if it wasn’t for Him, it doesn’t matter what ordinances we do, we couldn’t be saved. He’s commanded us to receive those ordinances but it is still only through His grace that we are saved. I think in Matt 7:21 Jesus explains it better “Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.” That’s what the misunderstood scripture in the Book of Mormon 2 Nephi 25:23 means that “it is by grace ye are saved after all you can do”. There are so many more verses in the BOM that solely say “it is by the grace of Christ you are saved”.
Jesus Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures and that he was buried and that he rose again the third day praise God praying for everyone everyday God bless you all
Very interesting discussion, and I'm very glad Greg is going through this with you.
A couple of things that struck me, the connection Greg made between dam and damnation, I've never heard that before. May be time to dig into the dictionary and word etymology.
Being a fellow Evangelical, I've never heard of Moses being translated, and that's not what I understand from the Bible. Likewise I thought John made it clear it wouldn't live on, but would die.
So it's a good discussion, but those are two points I've never heard before.
24:54 yes. There's nothing we can do of ourselves. However we believe he has prescribed certain steps (or works) to it. We are fallen and cannot earn our way to God. But Christ as our advocate with the father has negotiated a price that we can pay. He doesn't require nothing from us but he renegotiated a price we can pay to him. It's his gift to give as he prescribed it.
I had a wise teacher stating between paradise and damnation is that when we pass away we will have a perfect knowledge of our life. Having this perfect knowledge of our life, we look at what we could have had compared to what we ended up with. That is like taking a test and you did not study hard and got a bad grade and knowing if you would have studied more and got a better grade.
As we seek to keep our covenants, Our Savior promises that we can have his Spirit to be with us. As flawed as we are, this allows us to go forth with love and hope. We are, after all our Heavenly Father's children
Joseph Smith taught that in every kingdom after the resurrection the inhabitants will continue to progress forever. However, those in a lower kingdom can never reach the starting level of a higher kingdom. They progress within the confines of the possibilities of their kingdom and that is all. Those who are exalted in the Celestial Kingdom progress eternally. That is, they progress in the way God progresses. They have no limits.
Philippians 2:12.
Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
The Salvation distinction is a good one to understand and I am glad you guys really went through it. LDS beliefs really do believe in Saved by Grace ( it’s in D&C 76) in that all 3 degrees of glory are only possible through Jesus. That puts us all in the influence of God’s power in a direct way that is much more than what we feel in this mortal world. Attaining a degree of glory is a free gift of Christ. Which degree you go to is up to your works as far as keeping the commandments. In the CEL kingdom is where the literal presence of God would be.
When I die, I will be with my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. "To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord." 💕
Revelation 21 and 22 tell us what heaven will be like. Believers will be all together on the new earth and new heaven serving God and Christ. No one will be separated on different planets or levels.
@@Elizabeth-rk3do "To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord." I think the Pastor here might disagree with you on this.
@@CwicShow Jesus Christ would not disagree with me. 💕
Salvation which is given to all, is the resurrection and the overcoming of death. Exaltation requires that we live our lives according the Gospel of Jesus Christ which is to have faith.
Pastor Jeff, I think I love these Book of Mormon reaction videos the best as it gives very distinctive insight into how non-LDS scholars understand and think about when they read the Book of Mormon.
Being Perfect - We will no be perfected in this life; but we do strive to be excellent. To be good so that we can be more helpful to others around us. Elevate the group.
Blessing the Children - Greg didn't really seem to answer your question regarding this. I feel that chapter 17 is naturally something most people with children would find powerful. If I consider how I would feel if my own children were there with Christ and blessed of him, that's quite a wonderful, and powerful thought.
Body Shown - That's an excellent point. I hadn't thought of the difference in how he phrases mentioning the sacrament and his body before; but it does make it feel like we would rather focus on the new life (resurrection) rather than the death (crusifiction) of the Savior.
Faith vs Works - This topic is discussed quite frequently, and I really liked the reaction video you did on Brad Wilcox and how he explained this idea. He mentioned that Christ has already paid the price, like a parent has paid the price for piano lessons. And now it's up to us to see if we'll become a great pianist or not. Christ paid the price of sin for all of God's children. But that doesn't mean that all of God's children will go to Heaven. And the time and energy we put into this life in doing good and blessing the lives of others, will determine how far we go. God wants each of us to return to Him and has sent His son to pay the price of admission. It's up to us to decide if we will get there or not. He will not force anyone to Heaven.
Translation - In the Bible it does mention Moses dying and his bones; but in the Dead Sea Scrolls (The Ascension (or Assumption) of Moses) it mentions that Moses was translated.
Love the video, as always. Looking forward to more.
I cannot find any reference to the Ascension of Moses in the Dead Sea Scrolls. Can you please supply your reference? The work called the Book of Moses in an Apocryphal work that was not deemed authoritative to be included in the Bible. Maybe the mention of a translated Moses is one of the reasons since Moses quite clearly died in the Old Testament.
Faith in Christ is effort expended based on the hope He offers if we keep God's commandments.
Perfection is a process, not a destination. Even God prgresses through time. He created us. If we reach for perfection the he gains glory for our progress. Therefore our progress is his progress. Damnation refers to stopping progress. Also it's not "works based salvation", it's "works based exhaultation". Another example of translation was the City of Enoch.
Love the bridges being built. 💛
So in the end does pastor Jeff feel that this amazing testament of Jesus Christ can be made up by man, and not inspired and directed by Heavenly Father for the establishment of the true covenant path back into celestial glory?
Christians worship the true and living God who spoke the universe into existence from nothing, including the star Kolob that the LDS Heavenly Father came from.
The true and living God offers forgiveness of sins, salvation, eternal life, and exaltation for free if you are interested. That is how much God loves everyone! ❤️
30:53 there are references to Moses both dying and also being translated in the Bible, by the way. We see it as he “died in the Lord”, meaning that his mortal body wasted away, but he was not without his resurrected body. He was “twinkled”.
Ha ha, twinkled. I think only Mormons know that word.
@@mtgreengarden yup! That’s why I used it. Jeff can get exposed to more lingo that way so he understands us better. There are many moments where he says something he think is a “difference” but he words it and we’re like, “no we agree.”
I feel Greg missed an opportunity here to point out the difference between Matthew 5:48 and 3 Nephi 12:48. In the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus did not include Himself in the definition of "perfection", because His purpose was not yet fulfilled. But in the Sermon at the Temple, the post-Resurrection Savior included Himself as an example of perfection. Being in the presence of God as Jeff says at 21:30 does NOT constitute Perfection in our understanding, because being in Jesus' presence was at times basically the same (John 14:9) as being in the Father's presence, but Jesus was not yet perfected, let alone the disciples who were with him.
Question: How can there be a recognition that "perseverance is required" for salvation at 27:31, while also rejecting at 22:59 the notion of "having to do things" to gain salvation?
Jeff, I would love to see your complete thoughts on the differences between the Sermon on the Mount and the Sermon at the Temple. And I also think you'll have even more of an "AHA" moment as to the origins of some of our unique doctrines, if you were to read the Book of Moses--even just the first chapter!
The statement made by Malachi that Elijah would return to turn the hearts to the father of the hearts of the fathers to the sons, is most often debated about because of the question asked and how it's answered in a New Testament about Elijah. Now you have taught me something new, that the statement and the Book of Mormon gives us clarification on the coming event of Elijah, and not being something that is already been done or taking place but will take place. Thank you
I haven't watched video yet, just looking through some comments.
I'm curious now what discussion took place in the video as we know Elijah already has come. He came to Joseph Smith in the Kirtland temple.
@@netherquartz8946 it was quoted by Jesus in the Book of Mormon is what I was referring to.
Love these videos. Love hearing the perspective of other Christians. With this video have two questions/comments:
1, Jeff said man was created to be in the presence of God. To quote Elder Uchtdorf, "If salvation means only erasing our mistakes and sins, then salvation-as wonderful as it is-does not fulfill the Father’s aspirations for us. His aim is much higher: He wants His sons and daughters to become like Him." Jeff, why can't God make man not only to live in His presence, but to make man to live like Him as well? What would keep an all powerful God who could create men to be like Him from doing that?
2, Jeff spoke about the teachings of the church being works based. Depending on our works, temple convents, it is determined which kingdom of glory we will reside in for eternity after this life. My very real and sincere question is, how is that different from mainstream Christianity? I have heard our taught by mainstream Christians that one is required to have Faith in order to be saved. I have heard it preached that one has to repent from certain lifestyle, ones that if practiced cannot inherent the kingdom of God. Both of those are things, to name a couple, are things one has to do in order to be saved. Not that doing those things save you, but doing those things invite Christ's saving grace into our lives. So if mainstream teaches that without it being works based, why is it that the lds church teaches works based doctrine when we don't believe works save us but shows God to which level of Christ's saving Grace one wants to have applied in their lives. Not worked based but more committed to God based. If mainstream Christians can say the works they are required to do (faith, repentance) is not works based why do they say ours is?
Anyways love the videos, would like to see Pastor Jeff's thoughts on "The Family: A Proclaimation to the World"
Love this series! Once you finish with the Church, you should start a new series with other lesser known (often criticized) religions such as Jehovah's Witness.
I agree. A large chunk of my family left the LDS faith and converted to JW. I have a fascination with these restoration faiths including SDA.
I love it
Greg Matsen (the LDS co-host) made some references to Gethsemane.
The Bible, Book of Mormon, Pearl of Great Price, and the Doctrine and Covenants
say nothing about the sins of the world being put upon Christ in the Garden of
Gethsemane. Instead, the Bible says "He himself bore our sins in his body on the
tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. By his wounds you have
been healed" (1 Peter 2:24, ESV).
Other verses also indicate the Atonement occurs on the cross (Matthew 20:28;
Mark 10:45, John 3:14; 15:13, 1 Corinthians 1:17-18, Galatians 5:11; 6:14,
Ephesians 2:16, Philippians 2:8, Colossians 1:20; 2:14, Hebrews 12:2).
Thank you for your comment. For us, the Atonment occurs in Gethsemane, on the Cross, and from the tomb. One cannot be without the other. While it is likely that Jesus also paid for our sins at least for a time on the Cross, we believe that Gethsemane was also key, and that perhaps the bulk of the payment and atoning for sins happened there.
By the way, this is from D&C 19:16-18
16 For behold, I, God, have suffered these things for all, that they might not suffer if they would repent;
17 But if they would not repent they must suffer even as I;
18 Which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and TO BLEED AT EVERY PORE, and to suffer both body and spirit-and would that I might not drink the bitter cup, and shrink-
This is almost certainly a reference to Gethsemane.
Having referenced this, there are many more references in the D&C and the Book of Mormon that speek of the Cross. We seem to distinguish Gethsemane because there are 10s of thousands of men who have been crucified. We want to show that Christ is not just a martyr, but the Savior of the world.
@@CwicShowDoes that mean that Jesus is God in the flesh or a created being the brother of Satan?
@@CwicShow Hello.
Thank you for your reply.
Regarding your comment - "While it is likely that Jesus also paid for our sins
at least for a time on the Cross, we believe that Gethsemane was also key,
maybe even more prominent, that the suffering and payment for sins on the Cross".
I was surprised by your use of the term "likely".
The Bible says "He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, that we might
die to sin and live to righteousness. By his wounds you have been healed" (1 Peter
2:24, ESV). Nothing in the Bible, Book of Mormon, Pearl of Great Price, or the
Doctrine and Covenants allude to the teaching that the sins of the world were put
upon Christ in Gethsemane. The atonement for sin is in connection with the cross.
I agree with you that D&C 19:16-18 is what Latter-day Saints believe happened in
Gethsemane, but again there is no teaching in that section about the sins of the
world being placed upon Christ. You mentioned verse 17 ("But if they would not
repent they must suffer even as I"). Page 14 of the LDS teaching guide, "The Plan
of Salvation" defines the Telestial Kingdom as: "Those who continue in their sins
and do not repent will receive a place in the telestial kingdom". The Terrestrial
Kingdom is defined as: "People who refuse to accept the gospel of Jesus Christ but
who live honorable lives will receive a place in the terrestrial kingdom".
These terrestrial inhabitants also sound like people who did not repent because
they refused to accept the gospel.
www.churchofjesuschrist.org/bc/content/ldsorg/content/english/manual/missionary/pdf/36950_the-plan-of-salvation-eng.pdf
How do you see the telestial and terrestrial people suffering like Christ did?
I see another peculiar statement in D&C 76:52. The gods who reside in the third
level of the celestial kingdom were washed and cleansed from all their sins by
keeping the commandments.
Really?
Largely enjoyed this. 2 small different perspectives as a member:
I've never thought of the sacrament as remembering gethsemane. Could just be me, but it seriously never crossed mind until this discussion.
- I think we oversimplify the dialogue about being in the presence of Heavenly father with heaven. Kingdoms of heaven are heaven...the difference is in how we relate with God and Their light. We're told in scripture that those in the CK will be crowned even with the presence of God, but later in this same section that all the kingdoms ....including the earth and sun now have "seen God moving in his majesty and power." It then also talks about how christ came but wasn't comprehended by those around him for who he was. Separation from God is spiritual death...and to me any kingdom is a form of receiving immortality and glory and is thus in some way in the presence of God. But what comprehended and how one engages with God will differ by what we are willing to take in and become.
Very cool. I believe it.
This is great stuff! For me it's quite plain: The entire planet is filled with God's children. He loves us all and so therefore went and visited many peoples to set forth His gospel, to love His children, heal the sick, and gather His people. I see the Bible and Book of Mormon as two absolutely true witnesses of that reality and will not be surprised if/when other cultures discover writings and further witnesses of Jesus the Christ.