Grace or Works? Pastor REACTS to Latter-day Saint View
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- Опубліковано 29 лип 2023
- Do Latter-day Saints believe they have to earn their salvation? Pastor Jeff reacts to a talk given by Latter-day Saint, Brad Wilcox, discussing grace and works.
Watch Brad Wilcox's entire BYU Devotional entitled 'His Grace is Sufficient' here: • His Grace Is Sufficien...
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Hello Saints! My name is Jeff McCullough and I'm a Christian Pastor.
This channel is devoted to fighting criticism with curiosity as I invite dialogue between mainstream Christians and Latter-day Saints. Are Mormons Christians? What do Evangelicals and Latter-day Saints agree and disagree about? Join me as I compare and contrast the lifestyle, culture and beliefs of Mormons and non-LDS Christians.
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Seems like misunderstandings on grace go both ways when it comes to LDS / Protestant views. Do most Latter-day Saints align with Brad Wilcox's teaching on grace?
Please think on the repentance as of each is to bridge the gap between intentions and outcomes. (Sin, being a missed opportunity or outcome) @HelloSaints
I have had conversations with some who have had the exact attitude and belief in grace that Brother Wilcox talks about. I have also had lovely conversations on the topic of grace where our understanding and beliefs were much more aligned than different. Even some Latter-Day Saints do not understand our doctrine correctly, like the student Bro. Wilcox mentions in his talk. I think some people don't pay close attention in church. 😁
Even amongst ourselves, Latter-day Saints have very different interpretations. Brother Wilcox is too far on the "grace" aspect for me, and I think it's in an effort to reconcile Paul. Personally, I think all of scripture disagrees with Paul and Paul was pretty much wrong about it.
It’s difficult for me to speak concerning the whole church, or even the whole church in Utah. I wouldn’t speak for the whole church because there are 15 million different opinions and I have traveled a lot and lived in different states, but I still don’t feel qualified for that.
But I think this is a great topic, so I will try to explain what I think is the reason for this grace vs. works issue. We do works for exaltation, not salvation, but often when discussing this, we just want to play it safe and do the works for salvation.
Pastor Jeff, I want to understand your theological background. Do you believe in universalism?
@@Metroid-rg9pndisagree. Paul was spot on. The problem is too many people stop at Ephesians 2:8-9 and Romans 4:4-5. They forget Romans 2, Galatians 5:19-21, Philippians 2:12, Hebrews 5:9 and many more.
If Paul were alive today he would teach a fullness of grace, and yet the essential component of our own personal efforts, obedience, and covenants in receiving that freely offered grace.
Do our works matter in our salvation? Absolutely. Do they create, add to, or cause salvation to be given? No! However, do they enable us to be capable of actually receiving salvation and all it entails? Yes!
As a born again Christian, I have to say that I’ve encountered many, many Protestant believers who take hold of the gift of salvation but have not been properly taught learning to walk with Christ and truly follow Him - I’ve been a Christian for 52 years, and I am still learning what it means to truly worship our Lord and give our lives to Him. He’s not Santa Claus (as too many see Him as), and He’s not a “cool Dude” that sees the work in us as done once we’ve accepted Him and the great gift of salvation that He paid such a dear price for our sins. He gives us direction throughout the New Testament, but the Churches are falling short in training up His followers as He did His disciples. That is definitely an area the LDS church takes very seriously, guiding its followers in living lives that reflect changed hearts. Many of the things they do are things we should all be taking more seriously.
Thank you for saying this! Hebrews 5:8-12
Very thoughtful and sincere. Admittedly, I think there are also many LDS who are still not there, where Brad Wilcox is with grace, so Latter-day Saints also need more training with that. There is a reason that talk is so popular with the Latter-day Saints. It was a much needed talk and it still is.
Thank you for that! I don’t understand how people ignore ALL of Christ’s teachings of actionable counsel.
As a missionary of the LDS church, I came across many Evangelicals that really felt the deathbed confession was enough. I found many who didn't care about their language, what they did to their bodies, or how they acted towards others. When questioned about it, they would say, "Why should I care? Christ's grace is all I need." Their understanding of grace was lacking just as Wilcox was describing. Pastor Jeff's thoughts are great, but I think his view is as skewed as many LDS views of Evangelicals. Both seeing the best in themselves and not fully recognize the need for change and effort on our part.
Thanks for your comment. As Brad Wilcox pointed out in the video, a lot of us latter-day saints struggle understanding grace's role as well. While works don't earn salvation, I feel that everything God has taught us about life shows you are happier when you are working and trying. Our current prophet recently emphasized that "The Lord loves effort." Being engaged in trying to follow the Lord is a good way to live your life in general.
It's simple. If you aren't doing good works, you don't really have faith in Christ. You may say you do, but if you aren't following his commandments you're one those people who "draw near to me with their mouth and with their lips but have removed their heart far from me" Isa 29:13
Not necessarily. Works are important for sure. But it’s about the deisre of the heart. God doesn’t care how righteous you are. All he cares about is that your climbing the ladder no matter where you are on the ladder
Would you consider the fact that faith in action(or works) can change the heart as well as gods grace?
Did the thief on the cross next to Jesus living in paradise ever do good works? Was he ever baptized?
Members of the church of Jesus Christ are eager to be represented fairly in the Christian world. You are certainly a pioneer in this effort. Thank you for the work you do.
To venerate fiction to Gospel is blasphemy.
Hebrews 4:12
For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
@@Jozeemoss It's a good thing that members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints don't venerate fiction to gospel.
@@UpriseMusic He is making money on his videos, and he is very cool guy too. But I never trust church that tells you to stop reading anti-church media.
@@UpriseMusic Not everything he says is a direct challenge. He points out how we agree on far more than we initially thought.
@@pyrowolfcb4086
How do you test a prophet?
Deuteronomy 18:
21 And if thou say in thine heart, How shall we know the word which the LORD hath not spoken?
22 When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.
I had an experience that for me taught me a lot about Grace and is a similar but slightly different perspective.
As a 17 year old I went on a week long canoe trip with a church group. One day we hit a set of rapids and our canoe tipped over and me and a friend ended up on the wrong side of the river, stuck on a cliff face. Two of our leaders paddled over to us to rescue us. We had to climb a short ways down to get into the boat. Our leaders coached us "step there," "your almost there," "you can do it." We eventually got into the boat and then we helped paddle to the other side.
Reflecting on this experience I've learned a lot. Nothing I did saved me. I was saved 100% by my leaders. I believe we likewise are saved 100% by Christ. That being said i did have a "Work" to do. I had to get in the boat. It was a choice that required effort. It was scary climbing down a few feet to get in the boat, it wasn't easy but was necessary to allow myself to be saved. We have to choose to be saved, we have to put in effort to figuratively get in the boat with our Savior. Once I was in the boat I chose to paddle and help with what I could. I don't know if I actually made a difference paddling but I was grateful to be saved and paddled.
Grace is an extremally powerful and personnel thing and something I'm continually learning more about.
Marvelous example.
Wow! I love this example. Thank you!
Love this, reminds me of Moses holding up the serpent. All they had to do was look to live.
This is a great example. "Faith without works is dead. "
I have been thinking s lot ob this subject lately as I was reading from the letters of Paul the Apostle. Certainly empty works cannot save us, though they might be rehearsed and performed perfectly. Also, having faith to be saved without putting the works along with it will get us nowhere.
We must have faith unto works; faith strong enough to compel us to the works. Do you think you would do the work of peddling the bike if you had no faith that it would carry you? Will the bike carry you anywhere because you will it to by your faith, but refuse to work the pedals?
Love your example.
Being a Latter-day Saint, even I felt a little uncomfortable with the way Elder Wilcox portrayed the way evangelicals spoke. I see it as his attempt at humor, but I can see how it was disrespectful. I so appreciated the way to were able to speak of it in a forgiving and understanding way. Once again I am inspired by your "grace" in this process. I believe you are being directed by the Savior in your work.
while i agree with you statement, in many of my experiences, that is EXACTLY what many protestants have said and how they said it.
@@germanmarine6582I second that! I think Brad Wilcox is speaking in terms of what he has experienced too. It may not be what is taught by pastors like Jeff, but I'd argue that it's a fact in the understanding and living of many evangelical Christians, that they do uphold such a view.
This kind of discrepancy between transmission and reception also happens in the LDS Church. I think many LDS don't see things or live things the way Brad Wilcox puts it even tho Brad's teaching is coherent with the doctrine of Christ as taught by the Church. After all, the reason why this talk is so famous among LDS is because it reached more LDS and changed the view of more LDS than the Church had been able to do throughout its years of teaching.
That is what i personally experience. Brad Wilcox said it right.
Yes, there is misunderstanding and over generalization on both sides. Doesn’t mean we should be actively be miscasting other peoples beliefs. All in all it’s a great talk I just don’t see the need to cast shade on other religions.
I grew up in the deep South as a Mormon attending Baptist Bible School. I would say definitely that most were respectful and curious, but definitely some.....namely my own Aunt, that were a less tactful. I would say I got both equally, but we, as members of the LDS church can be just as dismissive or misunderstanding of our evangelical friends.
As a missionary for the Church in West Virginia, I met individuals who said that they could do anything they want because they were saved. They openly told me that. If you don't believe that, fantastic. But there r individuals in the Evangelical movement that believe it.
Also, I know you have read in Mosiah and in Alma regarding sin. After King Benjamin's speech, his people say they no longer have a desire to do evil but to do good continually. And the King of the Lamenites said he would give away all his sins to know Christ. That's the attitude. He will still sin. King Benjamin's people will still sin. But they didn't have a DESIRE to do evil. That's the key. No longer have a desire.
Oh that was a very helpful, and insightful comment! Thank you!
When did you serve in West Virginia I leave in September for my mission their
This was my experience as well. They would literally be taking crack while saying it too.
@jonerm2703 30 years ago. I served in DC South which included the area where WV, VA, and Maryland all meet. Romney is where I was.
@@jonerm2703 i served in Keyser WV which is part of the Maryland Baltimore mission
Jesus spent a lot of time during His ministry showing and teaching us exactly what to do and how to act. These things include praying to the Father, loving and serving our neighbor, forgiving and praying for those that despitefully use us and persecute us, being meek, partaking of the Sacrament in remembrance of Him, etc. As for me, those concepts require work. Lifelong work. And as Brother Wilcox explained, it's not just a sum total of kind acts or good deeds that saves us. We will never do enough for that. It's how those works help us become who we should become, a little better each day, line upon line, precept upon precept. And The Book of Mormon doesn't talk about being perfect alone, but being "perfected in Him." I love that we can have the Holy Ghost to guide us in our efforts. That too requires effort on our part. We need to stand in holy places, search the scriptures, pray always, and be receptive. I find a lot of comfort in this talk by Brad Wilcox, and I appreciate your efforts, Jeff, to find common ground in our beliefs.
To elevate fiction to Gospel is blasphemy.
Hebrews 4:12
For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
@@Jozeemoss
thank you for validation of our truth.
John 15:18-19
18 If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you.
19 If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.
@@joeshriver778
Victimhood does not grant authority over truth.
Jeremiah 17:
9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
10 I the LORD search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings.
I appreciate how well you addressed some misconceptions we Latter Day Saints have about mainstream Christians. You didn't get offended and just clarified what you believe. I really love this channel.
+
Same!
...this makes me feel good that you at least recognize Brad Wilcox's misunderstandings of the evangelical view. I'm sure he didn't mean harm by it, but it is important to understand the actual and accurate view of the evangelical perspective of the Bible and the gospel principles.
I don't think those are really misconceptions. Evangelical beliefs are like a smorgasbord, and in any discussion with them the first thing you have to do is discern which way they believe any particular doctrine. While Pastor Jeff does an admirable job in comparing his beliefs with Latter-day Saint beliefs, he goes astray whenerver he represents his personal beliefs as being those of all evangelicals. There is not one thing that Wilcox said about evangelical beliefs that I have not personally heard an evangelical advocate.
@@philmartin6627 ...sorry to hear that your experience with evangelicals has been exactly what B Wilcox was advocating.
If you are truly interested in the evangelical perspective, I'd recommend listing to and reading what is out there. I'd recommend Alistair Begg for starters. There are many great reformed evangelicals that teach the same Bible teachings that Pastor Jeff is sharing. The KEY is to know your Bible. The more you read and know the Bible, the easier it is to know when a preacher, pastor, priest or prophet is in align with the Bible.
From your response, I believe the reason you think it's a "smorgasbord' with the evangelicals and not with the LDS is possibly because you haven't spent the time to really understand what is being said. Evangelicals are just as guilty of this as well. Often, we use words that we think are the same but they have different meanings. Pastor Jeff calls this "talking past each other" and I think he is correct.
For example, the words: child of God, saved, begotten not made, created, sin, angels, the Holy Spirit, everlasting life, atonement, revelation, translation, etc. Each of these words has a slightly different meaning for the LDS than an evangelical. I was formally LDS for 39 years so I'm quite confident that these words are misunderstood.
Sometimes LDS don't know all of what the scriptures say and might have an opinion that is not what the church teaches. The same thing can happen with an evangelical believer.
For example, there are believers of Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon that are also practicing polygamy like the FLDS. I'm sure you don't agree with the FLDS teachings. On the other hand, there are evangelics that are TV evangelists who make millions and fly corporate jets taking peoples money in the name of God. I don't agree with that either.
Again, they key is to know your Bible(scriptures), pray for wisdom and let the Holy Spirit guide.
As a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, I really enjoyed this video. It’s nice to see someone truly building bridges between our doctrines and beliefs. Thank you!
@@OmegaMan28 what a weird comment. Considering members of the LDS faith believe that the Book of Mormon is “another” key world another, Testament of Jesus Christ and not the “only” testament of Jesus Christ. Members of the LDS faith very much believe in the Bible too.
@@OmegaMan28 also what is also weird about your comment is that it’s not Joseph Smiths doctrines. Your entire comment is ignorant and kinda annoying my man.
@@SFRR22D They are Joseph Smith's doctrines. He put his head in his hat, "read" the words on the same stone he used for his folk magic, and came up with the BoM. You can believe he was translating from the gold plates but you do know the church has now moved away from that teaching don't you? True it is still debated in the church whether he received the D&C by revelation or they were only his thoughts.
@@OmegaMan28 We believe the Bible to be the Word of God as far as it is translated correctly; We also believe the Book of Mormon to be the Word of God.
- 8th Article of Faith of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.
No need to worry my friend. Members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints love and abide by the Bible. We also love and abide by the Book of Mormon.
@@boysrus61 We haven't moved away from the fact that he translated the gold plates. It wasn't any folk magic. It was the power of God. The Doctrine and Covenants is a mixture of both history and revelation. A young farm boy in the early 1800s with a 2nd grade education could not make such a powerful record with a level of detail that would have been physically impossible if it were not for the power of God. He even managed to time Lehi's entire journey to the dot despite no maps of the ancient world being in North or South America. He even named a city that hadn't existed for thousands of years with the correct spelling. This level of detail could only be possible if he actually translated an ancient record.
I've loved Brad Wilcox's analogy of piano lessons ever since I first heard it years ago. I think often we can be incredibly hard on ourselves as we strive to overcome our weaknesses. Earlier this year I was contemplating the purpose of repentance in purifying our spirits and compared it to bathing our physical bodies. I have never heard someone say, "gosh, I'm just too filthy to take a bath." or "I'm just going to keep getting dirty everyday, so what's the point of bathing anyway?!" but we often say those very things when it comes to repenting of our sins and trying to become better through the grace of God.
I love the piano lessons analogy. Mom (God) paid for the lessons, but she (God) still wants us to practice. We’re not expected to pay her back, but the more we practice, the better pianist we will be.
@@davelaubman_BrandAmbassador Sooooo you feel pretty confident to say how Heavenly Mother feels. Please tell me more about her because there is nothing in scripture about her.
@@boysrus61 If Adam was created in the image of God, who's image was Eve made after?
To elevate fiction to Gospel is blasphemy.
Hebrews 4:12
For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
@@boysrus61 no, I have no idea how she feels. I could only guess 😆
Correct, there is nothing written about her. My suspicion is that God knew how his own name would be slandered and abused, so out of love and respect, he protected his wife from the dirty lips of men by never mentioning her.
The theory that she exists isn’t written in the scriptures, but is a consensus among our leaders because it makes sense with the rest of our theology.
@@Jozeemoss good point. Good thing the Book of Mormon isn’t fiction.
I think we need to be so careful in discussing "what other people believe". No matter how much we study, there are things we are bound to get wrong. Even living as a Latter Day Saint for 40 years now, there is so much that I learn and have to relearn everyday about how everything fits together. Faith is a lifelong process and we will never understand someone else's faith completely. Sometimes it's better to just focus on our own journey rather than discuss someone else's journey.
And be careful how you frame them. He kind of framed evangelicals as dumb or silly. I don't think he believes that or that LDS are superior to evangelicals, but that is how it came across.
To elevate fiction to Gospel is blasphemy.
Hebrews 4:12
For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
@@Jozeemoss
thank you for validation of our truth.
John 15:18-19
18 If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you.
19 If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.
@@adamslater7486…I was thinking the same thing actually
As the Bible says, we are "justified by faith." But Latter-day Saints (and many Christians) believe that's not a passive word, it's an active one. Jesus paid for our sins in full, but that's not a license to sin. Because He loved us so much, we show that we accept His grace by taking an active part in it, not just lip service.
Great answer
Can we start calling them “faith actions” instead of “works”? From my viewpoint, many evangelicals and Latter-day Saints are on the same page when it comes to the importance of doing things that demonstrate our faith, we just disagree on what to call it. I think evangelicals misunderstand us when we use the word “works” because they think it implies that we believe we can save ourselves, when in reality we believe just as they do that someone who believes in Christ will naturally do things that demonstrate that faith.
I feel the same way! We just have different lingo for the same things so much of the time.
I simply call it “Works of Faith”
There are 4 kinds of works, some save us, some don’t
Works of the mosaic law don’t save us. This is outlined in Romans 4:5 and Ephesians 2:8-9
Works of self don’t save us. This is outlined in Luke 18 and Titus 3:5
Works of Faith DO save us. These are works like believing in Jesus, trusting in Jesus, getting born again, getting baptized, and enduring to the end. John 3.
Works of LOVE 💍 certainly save us. These are works like prayer and forgiveness and repentance. Holiness. Friendship with God. Keeping God’s commands (John 14:15 / John 15:14) out of love, and having Jesus as LORD and not just Savior (Luke 6:45).
It is by grace ye have been saved through works of faith, not of ourselves, it is a conditional gift of God, not of works of the law, lest any man should boast. For we are his WORKSMANSHIP, created before time for works of LOVE.” -Ephesians 2:8-10
I also like to use the word “verbs”, because it rhymes with works and means actions
@@EricSmyth4Christ Yes, so well said!! I love how you pointed out that there are different kinds of “works” - that’s something I hadn’t considered before. The Bible is very clear that certain works are necessary for salvation, and to pretend otherwise is disingenuous.
@@davelaubman_BrandAmbassador Yes, absolutely! It’s a shame that “works” has become such a dirty word. It’s only through works (and not merely belief alone) that we can learn what we need to in order to progress. I love Bro. Wilcox’s usage of the phrase “We’re not earning heaven, we’re learning heaven.” 😊
Yeah, I was talking to a friend coming back from FSY and we went over how the argument between faith and works was based on semantics.
While growing up in the LDS church, I also gained many of the misunderstandings about grace, salvation, works, and trying to be "worthy" that the members Brad Wilcox spoke of. It is good to hear church leadership clearing up these doctrinal misunderstandings.
To elevate fiction to Gospel is blasphemy.
Hebrews 4:12
For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
@@Jozeemossthank you for validation of our truth.
John 15:18-19
18 If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you.
19 If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.
@@joeshriver778
Victimhood does not grant authority over truth.
Jeremiah 17:
9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
10 I the LORD search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings.
Thanks for making another great video! I have a lot of family in the Mormon church, and being able to watch these videos helps me to better understand their beliefs and have more in-depth conversations. It’s truly been a great unifying experience for my family! God Bless!
Works do not save anyone. Without Jesus Christ, no one is ever saved. LDS people and all people are saved by grace. Period. However, the most important thing is that people must have personal responsibility in developing their relationship with Jesus Christ. Words alone don't have the power to bind someone to Jesus Christ. Consider this "We are saved after all we can do to bind ourselves to Jesus Christ." Again, words alone lack the power to bind us to Jesus Christ.
I have attended evangelical churches since a teen and I have never heard Grace taught the way Pastor Jeff explained. I was taught that I could live as I pleased and that God didn't see my sins because of my belief in Christ.
I too find Pastor Jeff teaching differently from other pastors.
@@brettmajeske3525I feel they both have a misunderstanding of Eph 2: 8&9
Jeff's message of grace is the same message I've heard all my 68 years in the evangelical world. Edit: And as far as I know, none of our (Jeff's and my) various past or present denominational affiliations are held in common.
@@BellDavidE I suspect that there is more diversity among evangelicals, and for that matter within the LDS community, than either fully appreciates.
My wife grew up in Salvation Army, and switched to a Pentacostal Church as an adult. When we were married we took turns attending each others church. Jeff's explanation of Grace is not how my wife's church communicated their understanding to me, or to her.
I am not saying that Jeff is incorrect about what he believes and teaches, just that there is more diversity on the topic of Grace even within Evangelicalism than he expresses.
@@brettmajeske3525 Yeah, I hear what you’re saying. When I’m listening to Jennifer Roach on her channel and she makes a statement about evangelicals, sometimes I say, “What? That’s not my experience” (and sometimes I say, "right on!"). Evangelicalism is huge and diverse (hopefully diverse in mostly just the "non-essentials") and my experience is obviously limited. And what a person hears in the pews isn’t necessarily always exactly what the pastor was taught in seminary. But I can say that in my library I have books from many different scholars from many different conservative theological institutions who would agree with what Pastor Jeff said in this video.
@HelloSaints. I'm LDS and served a mission in England. Most of the people I had deep conversations with really thought that once they were saved, they could continue to sin. They didn't see Christ as a real figure that could change them. Sure, there are many of our beloved evangelicals that believe like we do, but there are many that do not. I think to make broad assumptions on either side isn't best thing to do. However, I've certainly had plenty of conversations to prove the point Elder Wilcox was trying to make. I felt you were quite "critical" on that point.
I had a girl tell me on my mission that Jesus died so we could have fun sinning. I felt bad for her. This was often my experience. Many would light up a joint or pop pills while telling me they were saved. It is because what we call a testimony of Jesus they call “saved”. But does a person truly believe in Jesus if they don’t believe Him enough to do His will?! I don’t think so.
There will be a lot of surprised folk waking up in Hell someday. People who claimed to be saved who loved their sin above all else I’m sure will be plenty.
@@BrendonKing everyone who sins is in hell. Their sin causes hell in their life and others. No one will be out of hell until they have attained holiness. Hebrews 5:8-12
Human nature is to be dense and cling to our own understanding of how it works together for our good. It is not until we surrender completely and unconditionally that we know the kind of grace that moves us in our core. Sometimes it comes bit by bit sometimes it comes suddenly. I am an artist and I have struggled most of my adult life trying to reconcile a non-existent career with the call I feel deep in my soul to share God’s beauty with the world through my creativity and imagination. When I finally surrendered to telling my story in words and pictures (I was focusing on the visual before because words are not my strength) I discovered a grace that has been healing my depression that came from an unfulfilled calling. Now I have more hope then even before. I think many people new on the path, or just returning don’t understand or can’t articulate it the way you and brother wilcox have. That’s probably where the hangups are- just in people and individual experiences with them. Too many just don’t fully understand what they are professing when they say they believe in God, the Bible, but don’t make time to read and study the nature and content.
I would like to know more of your story. I have felt and still do feel like what you have explained in just a few words. I feel unfulfilled as an artist, I pretty much have given up on the idea. Some of my issue maybe physical alignments but I'm sure it's not all of it. It possible mental and emotional and spiritual.
@@geralddavis3326 I have been working on a fictionalized version of it for about 3 years now and hope to get the first book out in the next 2 years (half way to my 100,000 words goal). It is the surrender to this and to whatever might come my way as a consequence of it (highly religious themes throughout the story) that is helping me heal, and the biggest part is God being in the details, Let go of struggle and just trust.
This is great! Thank you. I think he’s referring to some in mainstream Christianity who don’t think they have to do anything or misunderstand grace just like some in our faith misunderstand our beliefs. I feel like all believers are on a spectrum of understanding and why it’s good to understand the differences from those who are educated enough on both sides to point them out. Good video!
In the same vein, all latter-day saints are on a spectrum, learning as we go and interpreting and sometimes misinterpreting scriptures and doctrines along the way. Since Jesus’ grace is so comprehensive, maybe we could all practice a bit more grace with each other!
To elevate fiction to Gospel is blasphemy.
Hebrews 4:12
For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
@@Jozeemoss
thank you for validation of our truth.
John 15:18-19
18 If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you.
19 If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.
Totally agree, Brad is definitely referring to some, those other Christians he's spoken too and not necessary Evangelists/Protestant Christians. Just Christians who may go to church once a year and the rest of the time don't think of Jesus. I don't think Brad is having a pop at your faith Jeff.
My favorite video yet! Thanks Jeff.
I taught a lesson today on Sunday School about surrendering more to Our Savior. I love your comments on surrendering to The Savior so that He can help us transform and bear our burdens. I’ve always loved how much Protestants speak about grace.
Appreciate you Jeff!
To elevate fiction to Gospel is blasphemy.
Hebrews 4:12
For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
@@Jozeemoss
thank you for validation of our truth.
John 15:18-19
18 If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you.
19 If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.
I laughed when you said “is that what we sound like?”. Obviously not all Evangelicals say it like that, but unfortunately, we have had many people criticize us in a very demeaning way.
“JeSuS aNd LuCiFeR aReN’T BrOtHeRs!!!! Mormiiiiiiins, more like MORE ONS!!!!!!!!”
Is another one I get a lot
@@EricSmyth4Christ
thank you for validation of our truth.
John 15:18-19
18 If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you.
19 If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.
@@EricSmyth4Christ the problem is that Jesus and Lucifer are NOT brothers
@@Compulsive-Elk7103 It's really not a problem
it's two different religions/theologies
So I was LDS for 30 years. And I can see where there is confusion here. This talk links closely to the fundamental teachings of the LDS church, and that is the plan of salvation. Grace is a free gift which if we choose to accept, allows us to play the piano. Practice determines how good we get.
Or another words, where in the plan of salvation we go. Works are only necessary for us to progress after this life to inherit all the father has. Or another words become more like him. Ultimate goal in the LDS religion is to become like God. which means progression does not stop after we die. After we die we are severely limited on how we can progress without being in the physical body, which is why works are so important in this life to allow us to progress in the next. And one of the main reasons why LDS do work in the temple for those I’ve gone on before. This gift allows the person that’s already dead and does not have a physical body anymore to progress if they want to take it.
I’m not LDS anymore and have not been for awhile so if I make a mistake in this assessment I’m sorry.
Nicely said 😊
Thanks for sharing your journey of understanding and your own beliefs, Jeff! As a Latter-Day Saint, your points of view have helped me better understand my Protestant friends and have a better appreciation for our differences and similarities in beliefs.
To elevate fiction to Gospel is blasphemy.
Hebrews 4:12
For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
@@Jozeemoss
thank you for validation of our truth.
John 15:18-19
18 If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you.
19 If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.
@@joeshriver778
Victimhood does not grant authority over truth.
Jeremiah 17:
9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
10 I the LORD search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings.
@@Jozeemoss this is not victimhood, I revel in your hatred, because I know you would argue the scriptures with Christ Himself and hate Him
@@joeshriver778
Truth may sound like hate to those that are afraid of the truth. But Jesus said the truth shall make you free. God is not afraid of the objective and despises the subjective.
2 Timothy 3:
16All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
Why do Mormon prophets fail the test of a prophet?
Deuteronomy 18:
21 And if thou say in thine heart, How shall we know the word which the LORD hath not spoken?
22 When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.
Great video! I think what it really comes down to is mainstream Christians look at the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints and see us as ADDING to the simplicity of the Gospel.
I can relate to that, and definitely can see how people could come to that conclusion. For me, I feel that ongoing commandments, covenants, and revelations are principles that pull me towards the Restored Church.
Joseph Smith said, “When things that are of the greatest importance are passed over by the weak-minded men without even a thought, I want to see truth in all its bearings and hug it to my bosom. I believe all that God ever revealed, and I never hear of a man being damned for believing too much; but they are damned for unbelief.”
There are questions I have that only the Restored Church of Jesus Christ has been able to answer for me. I still have many unanswered questions, but our religion is a religion of answers and revelations and ongoing knowledge.
When I hear that the Bible is all we will ever have, and there can be no more world-wide revelations, I find that depressing and a bit of a gloomy outlook, especially given how different the world is now, compared to thousands of years ago. I believe in the Bible 100%, but I don’t believe it to be all that God ever intended us to have.
Maybe I’m mischaracterizing how mainstream Christians view revelation. I just want truth wherever it can be found. So if someone has a different perspective, I’m all ears. Sorry for the long post 😂
I’m a Protestant Christian and in church this morning, our pastor said that someone can study the Bible for thousands of years and still not gather all the truth and insight of God in it. It’s active and living and sufficient to understand the need for Jesus, how to be born again, and life the good life Jesus talked about, a life devoted to Him until he comes again.
@@maxstooksberry9458 I can definitely appreciate that perspective. I guess I just want more answers on more questions that aren’t addressed specifically in the Bible. I want to understand the character of God as much as I possibly can, and I want the grace to change my desires and my actions to live in accordance with that knowledge.
@@Paxmann92 we must be silent where the Bible is silent, and speak up where the Bible speaks up. To trust contradictory texts/doctrines from Gods word is to trust a lie
@@Paxmann92 nothing wrong with asking for more answers. But new revelation cannot contradict Gods already revealed revelation.
@@maxstooksberry9458 I don’t see it as contradictory at all. I don’t see anything in the Bible that supports sola scriptura. From my understanding, that was a tenet that crept in after the apostles were killed. That’s my perspective though. I don’t subscribe to the post apostolic creeds, and all of mainstream Christianity seems to hang on them. To me, the creeds are non-biblical. Again, that’s just from my perspective, giving context to our belief in extra-biblical scripture.
Thank you for your love, kindness; and respect for our church. I love your channel
Another great engagement of much needed ongoing conversations to find out where we agree with each other!
Let’s celebrate and encourage all that choose to bear the image of Christ!
To elevate fiction to Gospel is blasphemy.
Hebrews 4:12
For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
@@Jozeemoss
thank you for validation of our truth.
John 15:18-19
18 If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you.
19 If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.
I will say my experience with family critics of my faith mirror brother Wilcox' experience. You definitely gave me some clarity on what mainstream Christianity believes about Grace
My experience with Evangelicals is they try to tell me I am wrong and I do not read the Bible enough. I point out parts of the Bible which show I do read it, they get angry and I say I worship a false God and Jesus is not the same. They then tell me to read more of the Bible and call me names. So yes, to me the Evangelicals sound a like like how Brother Wilcox describes.
Jeff, might I ask you to talk to an Evangelical missionary with an LDS member and see how we are treated? You are an abnormality by far, try our shoes for a little please.
Sometimes those misunderstandings cause us to be defensive. Then we fortify our belief with everything we can find to distance our belief with the other side. That's how the big division is created when, in actuality, we are not that different. As a LDS, honestly I find it comforting to hear an evangelical speak of grace when they are in their comfort zone and not pushed into a corner to defend the doctrine of grace.
To elevate fiction to Gospel is blasphemy.
Hebrews 4:12
For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
@@Jozeemoss
thank you for validation of our truth.
John 15:18-19
18 If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you.
19 If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.
Thank you Pastor Jeff, this was great. As a Latter Day Saint, it's important to be aware that misunderstanding and mischaracterization go both ways. As always, I love your deep and sincere testimony of Jesus Christ. Thank you for helping all of us combat criticism with curiosity. God bless ❤
Pastor Jeff, I love that you mentioned "relational reflection." As we develop and nurture that relationship with God (through prayer, reading and studying scripture, and living His teachings) our lives naturally reflect that change of heart. Our lives start to reflect His grace in us. Thank you for sharing your thoughts.
I consider this Talk by Brad Wilcox to be the best representation of our (Latterday Saint) understanding of Grace. I also confess that I have previously also viewed "Born again" Christians as being a little flippant in their commitment to being born again. It has often appeared to me that friends that have been born again undergo no characteristic, or lifestyle change other than their declaration that they are now saved.
Having said all of this, I have in recent months found great similarities in the members of our different faiths in that many "claim" the name of Christ, but fail to walk that path of that commitment. Ive noticed that the actual doctrinal difference, or principle of Grace that both faiths actually teach, differs only by the smallest degree of perspective.
When I have spoken to sincere latter-day Saints vs sincere born again's . . . both have a genuine desire to be more like our Saviour. The only major difference Ive seen, comes down to what our faiths regard as sinful, or at the very least, distasteful or repulsive to God. . . . So the percieved change in a Latter-day Saint verses that of a mainstream Christian is far greater due to our code of conduct . . . Things like Modest dress, music preferences, movie preferences, food and drink consumption, etc are all laid out in black and white within The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, where-as it's somewhat of a personal preference for main stream Christians. It Seems that as a mainstream Christian one can still hang out at the Pub with your friends on Saturday night and feel completely guilt free in church the next day. One can have an intimate relationship before marriage without facing feelings of condemnation or separation from the Holy Ghost. While these things may still be considered "bad", they dont appear to be Doctrinal in Mainstream Christianity.
Basically, our understanding of what Grace is, is very similar . . . its the discernement of what is right and wrong before God in our life as a Creature, Born Again in the Lord Jesus Christ, that most greatly separates our perspective of how committed another might be toward God. . . . Basically we ask the question: "How does your faith in Jesus Christ make you any different from the rest of the world?" . . . I believe Christ's followers always stood out, separated from the carnal traditions and customs of man
It's sadly true that a lot of people call themselves "Christian" but continue in sin because they really have an unrepentant heart that holds God's commands in contempt. Nevertheless, that is not the orthodox Christian teaching.
What is your best?? Well, It's the best you can do. Problem solved. :>)
Jeff... if faith and works was one's ascent to the top of a mountain of grace that is eternally high, faith the decision to take the journey and works the climb... all who attempt the task will be saved by the journey taken no matter how far they make it, if they did the best they could do. Gave it their best shot. Some people aren't as fit as others or various other realities so it's the diligent journey that the Lord loves and by His loving Grace... all who try are saved according to their journey.
"Grace [or] works"?? Nope... there is no separation between the two. It's always grace AND works just like it's always faith AND works. Not one vs the other.
Amen. :>)
Look, if anyone wants a really amazing understanding of Grace, discipleship, and works/actions PLEASE listen to or read the teachings of Neal A Maxwell. He was an Apostle 20+ years ago. He was a brilliant scholar and a humble servant. Honestly, the Holy Spirit was so strong when I meet him I had this spirit deep understanding of what being in the presence of Jesus would be like.
Member or not you can't go wrong partaking of his teachings on Christ and life.
God bless.
❤
One of the Master's truest disciples and master teachers.
No, you have no idea what being in the presence of Jesus would be like by meeting a church teacher. Comments like these are just crazy.
Thanks Pastor Jeff! The reason I subscribe to your channel is so that I can better understand Evangelical teachings. I feel that as Latter Day Saints we often keep to ourselves because we feel that other denominations are too different or that we are ridiculed behind our backs. Maybe we are sometimes but I find that there is more we agree on than not. I feel we as Latter Day Saints should be working more with others to bless Gods children. We are like two ships sailing to the same place. Life may be a little different on each boat but our destination is the same. That’s what we should keep in mind when we discuss beliefs with each other. I think we should be happy when someone becomes a believer. In whatever denomination works for them. Thanks again for fostering understanding. It gives me inspiration to go out and share with others our mutual belief in Christ.
Yes! And it makes me really wish I had spent more time learning about other religions before my mission so that I knew at what level and understanding to talk to people! Like Ammon used King Limhi’s understanding by talking about God as the great spirit. Or Moses telling the story of the creation formatted to mimic the creation story of the people he was teaching it to. And so on. But im glad im learning now so it’s easier now to talk to others of other faiths.
To elevate fiction to Gospel is blasphemy.
Hebrews 4:12
For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
@@Jozeemoss this is not helpful or useful in furthering meaningful discussion.
@@Jozeemoss
thank you for validation of our truth.
John 15:18-19
18 If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you.
19 If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.
@@joeshriver778
Victimhood does not grant authority over truth.
Jeremiah 17:
9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
10 I the LORD search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings.
Thank you for your time and openness. I belong to the church of Jesus Christ and I love learning the differences, but most importantly I am uplifted feeling closer to those who are following Christ too! We need each other in this day and age and I am so grateful for my Christian brothers and sisters!❤❤❤
To elevate fiction to Gospel is blasphemy.
Hebrews 4:12
For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
@@Jozeemoss Not relevant to my comment.
To clarify, I am grateful for the goodness of those, like you, trying to teach values to their families and being Christ-like even though I disagree with them in the various doctrine. …..just pointing out similarities …… focusing on the positive. We need each other in this day and age. I am not here to get into a Bible Bash session.
@@Jozeemoss
thank you for validation of our truth.
John 15:18-19
18 If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you.
19 If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.
@@joeshriver778
Victimhood does not grant authority over truth.
Jeremiah 17:
9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
10 I the LORD search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings.
@@brookenilsson How do you test a prophet?
Deuteronomy 18:
21 And if thou say in thine heart, How shall we know the word which the LORD hath not spoken?
22 When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.
Pastor Jeff, I think you totally rock. I love your desire to connect with and unite disciples of Christ. I recently had the opportunity to visit a few first world countries who are the homeland for some very beautiful people. They are kind and love life. Did I mention they are very good looking. :) Their countries are breathtaking. There was one comment made by one of our river guides in one particular area when we were apologizing for taking so much of his precious time taking our selfies. He said, "Don't worry about it; everything here in_____________is salary based." I pondered that for awhile.
My family also had the opportunity of having an exchange student from that particular country live in our home this past year. We noticed a lot of entitlement--whether it was cleaning her room, having a certain meal cooked, allowing her to do whatever she wanted, paying for items that she should have covered. As I reflected back to the particulars of our experience with this exchange student and the comment from our guide, I recognized that there country is a great place to live, but there is no way to actually "climb the ladder" or progress after a certain point. Everyone is on "salary". And that is good. That is socialism. I like that all people can have housing and food and clothing and all the things we need. But living in a capitalistic society has taught me that growth and change and progression are happiness.
I'm not always progressing on the finical ladder; quite the contrary. I look for opportunities to progress by sharing light, serving others, becoming more like Jesus Christ through his grace. Jesus Christ's atoning sacrifice enables me to change. Becoming more like Jesus makes me happy. He is God's son. He and the Father are one in purpose. The Holy Ghost is united in the Father and the Son's effort to bring others to the truthfulness of eternity.
Like any good parent, God wants to give us everything He has. He wants us to have the same opportunities He has had, the same glory and joy. He also knows that effort brings rewards. Sacrifice and effort increase our gratitude for that glory and joy. He won't just give us all that He has. He has given us the way. It is through the gift of His Son, that He has made our eternal progression possible. God wants us to choose Him. We are not perfect, but Jesus is. Through daily, sincere, repentance, we grow in His Grace. Grace is an invitation to progress. Grace is strength when I cannot run the race of life alone. Grace is a second chance. Grace is the ultimate gift of love.
Thanks Pastor Jeff!
Love,
A Disciple of Jesus Christ, a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints
One thing I learned from this video is as a Latter-day Saint, I need to be more careful about how I talk to other faiths. I felt Brother Wilcox was insensitive with his remarks mimicking other people talking about their faith. I know that in the past church leaders and even in the Book of Mormon and the Bible there are some very Hard speaking words towards other faiths. In this day and age, these words can be very hurtful and we need to do what ever we can to be respectful to those who are trying to get closer to christ but maybe in a way that we don't agree with. At the end of the day we are all children of God and He loves all of us, Jew, Gentile, Believer, Non Believer alike. This is why I love Pastor Jeff so much. I have learned so much to attack criticism with curiosity and I am loving it!
I’m very grateful for what you are doing. I’m LDS and I have a group of friends (of a few different faiths) and we all go to different kinds of churches together and discuss what we believe.
I remember talking to a born again Christian for the first time about this subject, and we both realized that our perspectives on this subject, and many others, were extremely similar, when I had previously (unrighteously) assumed otherwise.
We definitely put too much emphasis on our differences in religion. Though we have a few differences (and those can be important), we all strive to live like Christ did, and we should see each other as fellow Christians, just as I think you are showing us.
To venerate fiction to Gospel is blasphemy.
Hebrews 4:12
For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
To elevate fiction to Gospel is blasphemy.
Hebrews 4:12
For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
@@Jozeemoss
thank you for validation of our truth.
John 15:18-19
18 If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you.
19 If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.
Thanks Jeff, your explanation has pushed me back into the Mormon Church. I was about 2 inches from leaving.
John 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
Right here, Jesus says that he intends for all people who believe in the testimony of His witnesses can be equal inheritors with Christ in Exaltation. and what was it Jesus did before the last supper? HE WASHED THE FEET OF THE 12 APPOSTLES, AND SAID TO ONE OF THEM IF I WASH THEE NOT YOU WILL HAVE NO PART WITH ME.
Clearly right here he spells it out, he says RECIEVE THE WORK, OR YOU CAN NOT INHERIT YOUR PART WITH ME. THE TEMPLE DOES WASHINGS ANNOINTINGS AND OTHER THINGS LIKE THE WORK IN THE ROOM WHERE THEY WERE LODGED.
You think thats interesting look up Mandaeanism, and Ethiopian Orthodox. Glad you decided to stay.
…reading St John pushed you back to the LDS church? How?
@@gordianknot9595 what is your definition of "The Elite"?
@@gordianknot9595 Also in terms of Latterday Saint History there was Footwashings during the period when "The School of the Prophets" was active, prior to the Completion of The Kirtland Temple. Temple Initiatory Ordinances today pretty much represent the same thing. Even if such a practice exists I wouldnt call General Authorities. "The Elite." I wouldnt even consider such a practice to be Elitist.
From Church Article. "Washing of Feet."
"“ordinance of washing of feet” was a restoration of the New Testament practice “calculated to unite our hearts” and prepare the elders for an endowment of spiritual power."
@@gordianknot9595 To be Honest ive heard all kinds of things back when I was a Non Member, Nobody's Calling, and Election can be made sure and live unrighteously. Every principle builds upon itself. If someone lives antithetically to those principals set forth in the Sermon on the Mount they are going to find themselves being judged according to the knowledge they had. Honestly if you dont believe in the book of Mormon and never received a Spiritual Witness of it, thats fine. I read it and eventually did, and God used people at my old church to testify of Truth. Which means hes so much bigger then the average interpretation of the So called. "Mormon Church" as interpretated by most Christians which I myself once included in that presupposed a great deal. And validated by precepts I thought they believed which I would Find abhorrent and Antithetical as a Latterday Saint. Anyways take Care Gordian. Much Love.
I feel like the number one difference in our beliefs that causes us to not fully see eye to eye on this matter is that the Church of Jesus Christ believes we can progress even after this life, while mainstream Christianity believes, if im not mistaken, that we are done progressing and we are at eternal rest when we die. Because of this, I think there is a restriction to understanding the full potential of grace and Christ's Atonement in this life and why the Church of Jesus Christ of Later-day saints views are different than mainstream Christians beliefs.
Just a thought of mine. Awesome video, as always, Pastor Jeff!
I am a young Member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints thats preparing to go on a mission by the end of the year. I really find these video’s refreshing and hopeful to one thing thats scared me about going on a mission. Being criticized and put down and seemed as hateful. Of course there will always be criticism and i will he yelled at and hated for being a member. But the reason i want to go is to lead others back on the path of God by inviting others not forcing them. I hope what you are doing can help others understand us and our true belief’s and be more understanding and also helping us LDS members understand you guys our “christian cousins” just as president Gordon B Hinckley said on a interview with Larry King (im paraphrasing a bit) “we should not discriminate against other religions and just invite them with us and help add on to their good they bring with them” thank you Pastor Jeff for these videos God bless you 🙏🏽
Matthew 5:10-12
Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness’ sake, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Blessed are you when others revile you and persecute you and utter all kinds of evil against you falsely on my account. Rejoice and be glad, for your reward is great in heaven, for so they persecuted the prophets who were before you
Jeremiah 17:
9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
10 I the LORD search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings.
Joseph Smith wrote blasphemous fiction that is at odds with Bible and venerated it to scripture as well as uttered contradictious prophecies which disqualifies his authority. Joseph Smith's "translated"/defiled Bible along with other made up scripture is in opposition to the truth since the Bible was never lost. 1,000 manuscripts of the Old Testament oldest of which date to the Dead Sea Scrolls year 150 Before Christ. 5,800 manuscripts of the New Testament oldest being found again in the Dead Sea Scrolls year Anno Domini 70. Thats right, the oldest New Testament manuscript dates to just 35 years after the death and resurrection and validates the mainline Bibles of today! Unless of course one believes Joseph Smith set those 6,800 manuscripts right with his vandalised text.
God makes the Gospel simple for our protection. Things that are different are not the same. True Christianity bares all three witnesses of God (1Father, logos, logic, mind, reasonable) (2Jesus, body, archaeology, heart, tangible) (3Holy Ghost, feeling, soul, spiritual) The truth shall set you free but clinging to pride instead of leaving the Pharaoh is hard since the first step is always the desert.
Matthew 22:
37 Jesus said to him, thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
What ancient Egyptian Sounlike Like - and how we know
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Test of a Prophet: The Bible vs. Joseph Smtih
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@@Jozeemoss
thank you for validation of our truth.
John 15:18-19
18 If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you.
19 If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.
Your head and heart seem very prepared for your mission! A mission can seem so critical. I've watched many of my previous companions fall away from the Gospel and distance themselves from the guidance of the spirit and Christ. Learn how He communicates with you and I promise your mission will teach you more about yourself and more about the love Christ has for us as His brothers and sisters. These videos are fantastic
@@Jozeemoss The one thing you accomplish by your hateful posts is that you label yourself not a Christian. Jesus said, "By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, ye will have love one for another." John 13: 34-35
Haven’t watched the whole thing yet… but off the bat, a huge problem I often see come up on this topic is trying to talk about grace and works as opposing forces. The scriptures talk clearly that both matter in a Christian life. Both are a beautiful part of the gospel. Jesus has saved us. Jesus also wants us to keep the commandments. In a nutshell, that’s it.
I’m. LDS, and this is how I see it. When it comes to grace, I know it is necessary for me to return to the Lord’s presence, but I think I should make some effort as opposed to resting on my laurels.
This is why we don't have Laurels in the church anymore.
As a life time Latter Day Saint, this is my favorite Christian channel. Very informing and educational. Now my only insert is this, you, like our leaders have a deeper understanding of the gospel which makes it easier for you to explain principles and doctrines. Most misconceptions on both sides, comes from informations gathered from followers who think they know a lot but don’t, or some who is trying their best to explain the concepts, but can’t put it into the proper context. At the end of the day, we should all know that we’re fighting the same fight, and following the same God. I think the savior will be proud of us regardless ❤
I second that. I love choosing to all be in Gods army together as His children. Love this channel ❤
To elevate fiction to Gospel is blasphemy.
Hebrews 4:12
For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
@@Jozeemoss
thank you for validation of our truth.
John 15:18-19
18 If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you.
19 If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.
Thanks for this reaction! I have been sent this talk many times by LDS friends/missionaries and haven’t known the best way to respond to it. Thanks!
Thank you so much for this video. I have a much better understanding of what is being taught about grace from a protestant viewpoint. You're correct in that Latter-day Saints and Protestants often talk past each other. Every experience I have had with Protestant friends in talking about grace has seemed to be accusatory claiming that we feel that works are more important than Christ's grace. This is a pretty big reason why I think many of my faith have gotten the impression that works are of no level of importance to most Protestants. After hearing your comments that obedience is a reflection of new life we have in Christ helped me to see that perhaps they were just going by some misinformation given to them about what we believe. I loved this talk, and I appreciated your comments on it showing where you felt there were differences. I might also point out that Latter-day Saints also believe that obedience is a reflection of the Saviors grace in our lives and a reflection of surrendering ourselves to Christ's will so that we might become new Creatures in Christ. Yet, we believe that we are on the covenant path from thereon out, and we spend the rest of our lives surrendering to God's will. In this case, it is also a practice to become perfected in Christ. I've done a UA-cam video on this as well as more of a reaction to some real anti-Mormon pastors out there. I hope I come of as respectful as you have. Here is the link if you are interested: ua-cam.com/video/9j844Dkifyg/v-deo.html. I would love to get your take on it as well.
I find myself exasperated repeatedly at the screen, asking "But why?" and "For what purpose?" I didn't hear an evangelical answer to those questions.
If the goal is to "return" to a Garden of Eden existence and "rest", then why did we need to come to earth, endure the veil, and wrestle with change? We are required to become new creatures because we will not be returning to the old, spiritually youthful existence we once enjoyed. Adam and Eve's goal was not to return to the Garden of Eden. Instead of innocent children in God's kingdom, we will be asked to take a new role. That is where LDS beliefs diverge significantly from others. We believe our eternal goal involves becoming like God in a literal way.
Jeff, the more I study the doctrine and convents along with your videos, I think you are completely right.
From my study, It looks like there are two different kinds of salvation. One is Christ salvation for the individual, then the salvation of God the father is for the family. The second salvation is the, what you called, crowns. Christ Salvation gets us into heaven. Once in heaven we can be crowned with glory by God the Father by our obedience to God's laws. The crowning isn't earned by grace. It's simply granted because of our obedience.
@davelaubman_BrandAmbassador I agree with everything you said except the use of the word" few.". There is reason to believe at first it will be few. But in time, there is grounds to interpret the D&C for people to graduate from kingdom to kingdom. Otherwise, why do those in higher kingdoms minister to those in lower kingdoms if they can't progress? In time, who knows what is possible. I propose in time, more will eventually be in the celestial kingdom than any of the lower kingdoms. The word "eternaties", mentioned in the Temple, is not clearly defined in the D&C. The word itself is an enigma. If an eternity is forever, how is the word plural? Also, the word damned isn't permanent. Acording to the D&C those in Spirit prison are damned. But we know those in the spirit world minister to those in Spirit Prison. And, if those in Spirit Prison accept the fulness of the Gospel, are welcomed into the Spirit World. Thus, they are no longer damned.
And so I propose the possibility to overcome damnation in the two lower kingdoms is possible. Otherwise, why are they ministered too? It's logical to assume if those in Spirit Prison are redeemable from damnation, so is progression from kingdom to kingdom given that ministering continues after the final judgement. So given enough eternities, the Terrestrial and Telestial kingdoms will be empty. This making God's plan redeeming for all his children to live with Him again. In the end Satan would only win those that are perdition. A relatively small percentage of all God's children. And as such, God will have complete victory over Satan. Satan will be the looser, and God the winner.
So don't assume there will be few that eventually make it to the celestial kingdom. There are enough galaxies in the universe for every person that has lived on this planet to be given stewardship over. I may be wrong, but I might be right. I hope I am right. There are a lot of Terestrial people I want to be with in the celestial kingdom. Especially my four inactive children. I need hope in the possibility they will be with their mother and I if we make it into the celestial kingdom.
Thank you for sharing your views on this subject. I've struggled over the years to understand the subject from either sides and feel there is far more than I can comprehend. I appreciate this video.
This is why we have to have these thoughtful conversations. I spent years among our protestant / born again friends whom I love. In my growth, I had misconceptions about both the Latter-Day Saint views on grace / works and evangelical or mainstream views on the topic. Over the years, as learning continued, I found both parties had misunderstandings and misconceptions about what both I and the other side believed. We spent too much time trying to be right and not enough time listening to what is right. Learning fundamental principles of Christ's gospel is a lifetime persuit. The Holy Scriptures and prayer with real intent is the life blood of coming to understand. "And the Holy Ghost will teach you all things, and bring all things unto your rememberance whatsoever I have said unto you." Ultimately, personal revelation through daily feasting on the word and sincere personal, prayerful petition will see us through to understanding. In the meantime, let's love one another and band ourselves together under the banner of gratitude for Jesus Christ and his Holy sacrifice and hope through both His death and resurrection. We all have one thing in common... We love HIM!!
You are so refreshing! Thank you for what you are doing! As an LDS member I so appreciate the dialogue and the way in which you communicate differences!! I’m also learning more about your beliefs as you clarify misconceptions that we have! God bless you! Keep up the good work!
To elevate fiction to Gospel is blasphemy.
Hebrews 4:12
For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
@@Jozeemoss
thank you for validation of our truth.
John 15:18-19
18 If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you.
19 If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.
@@Jozeemoss The Lord repeated that very concept in several of the latter-day revelations he gave his servant, the prophet Joseph Smith, whom He personally called. To ignore the approximately 900 pages of new revelation the Lord has provided for these the last days when He was in the business of fulfilling the prophecy of Acts 3: 19-21 is rather foolish.
@@bobrussell8339 How do you test a prophet?
Deuteronomy 18:
21 And if thou say in thine heart, How shall we know the word which the LORD hath not spoken?
22 When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.
@@joeshriver778
There is only one truth all else is deception. Facts sound like hate to those afraid of the truth.
Matthew 22:
37 Jesus said to him, thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
Find God with the triad that is reflected in all of us (body, mind, soul) (tangible, logical, spiritual)
Jeremiah 17:
9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
10 I the LORD search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings.
Great video Jeff! Throughout watching your series I’ve been able to identify how really dysfunctional the conversation has been between our two groups. Each not fully understanding what the other is truly saying. I’ve had many evangelical folks tell me that they’ve been saved. As a result nothing matters from this point forward. This is where nuance is so important. And also understanding that this one individual can’t possibly speak for an entire movement. Similarly, Latter Day Saints won’t always understand doctrine in the same way.
These respectful conversations help clear up decades of misunderstanding. Though we won’t agree on many points of doctrine at least well then understand. Even better, we’ll find common ground; making us “no more strangers”.
To elevate fiction to Gospel is blasphemy.
Hebrews 4:12
For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
@@Jozeemoss
thank you for validation of our truth.
John 15:18-19
18 If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you.
19 If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.
Just wanted to say thank you for sharing your thoughts. I find it’s easy for us Saints to notice how we are misrepresented by others, but I think it is very important to know how we may be misunderstanding others’ perspectives as well. I so appreciate how you approach these discussions with openness, and with grace for our shortcomings.
Wow! This was so eye opening as an evangelical Christian. I had no idea that many LDS think that we believe it's all "I'm good. I don't need to be a light to this world. I don't need to follow Jesus in every aspect of my life. I don't need to honor Him with the things I do and say because Jesus already paid the price for my sin.". That's bananas. I would argue that any person who calls himself a Christian and doesn't bear the fruit of the Spirit is likely not a true follower of Jesus at all. They just have religion but not a relationship with Jesus. When you've totally surrendered your life to God, you can't help but show it in your life. You don't have to struggle to do good things, the Holy Spirit changes you from the inside out and it's just naturally what happens. Love God, love people.
Thank you for sharing your faith and witness of Christ here, and thank you for listening to Pastor Jeff to better understand us, as we (LDS members) learn to better understand and appreciate your faith. I continue to be impressed on how close we are to each other on so many points. ❤
Wow this is eye opening statement. Have you ever visited an LDS church or had a missionary over to talk about what we believe? I guarantee you that it’s only about Jesus Christ.
I think as long as we are striving to follow and do as God has commaded us, His grace is more than sufficient for us. If we truly desire to come to Christ, and want to follow Him with all our heart, Christ will fill that gap that seperates us from perfection. He knows we are human and He knows that we will make mistakes, and there is no way that we could make it back to heaven without Him. This is the reason why He offers His grace to us, because we cannot do it on our own. Through our effort to live a life of righteousness, He promises us that whenever we turn to Him with a broken heart and a contrite spirit, He will strengthen us, walk with us, and help us to be perfected in Him, because His enabling power to heal us is sufficient.
Philippians 4:13
3 Nephi 12:48
Acts 15:11
Beautiful words brother in Christ!
I grew up in the south. I did not have it happen to me, but I know someone that I grew up with that told me that others prayed for them on a daily basis because they had not been saved.
It may be the church that you deal with, but many, many people ask LDS Church members if they are saved.
absolutely love this channel! thank you so much for doing this!
Pastor,
First of all I really appreciate so much the way you approach the incredibly huge task of helping people of different Faiths come together in love and understanding. Thank you.
That being said, I need to say first that I am probably not as knowledgeable with as much understanding about as many gospel topics as you. I will say I study, as much as possible, and I love my Savior and ALL my fellowman.
And I want to thank you for your loving kindness toward members of the LDS church.
As you may have guessed, I am a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. I did not read the Book of Mormon until I was 45 years old. It truly changed my life because it helped me come unto Jesus Christ. Before that, I was a member of many churches and different Faiths.
As such, I never like hearing a person of any denomination try to describe the belief of a person from a different denomination they are not part of. You do a great job; and sometimes you fall a bit short. But I do not let that detract from the amazing man of God I see in you.
I agree that Elder Wilcox could have said it differently, like: many people in all Faiths do not fully understand the principles he mentioned. I think Scott Wilcox's intent was pure and to say many people, not just people who are not LDS.
Generally speaking, LDS members and members of all churches do try their best to study along a path where they currently stand. And they often fall short too.
Dang, it's so difficult to be mortal beings, huh? 😂
One of your best videos, it really help me to understand and accept God's grace. Thanks
26:10 but faith IS trying. Faith is not belief, but the SUBSTANCE or proof of what is hoped for. A person who doesn’t try has no faith.
Jeff,
He didn't say all Christians, just some Christians. I know there are many Christians of different faiths trying their hardest to follow Jesus Christ and live a good life. I'm thankful that you are a kind, gentle person trying to learn about the LDS faith. There will always be differences, but basically we are trying to follow Jesus Christ as well. Sometimes we get too caught up in what each faith does. We need to just focus on our Savior and to follow his example, and the Lord has told us in the Bible that you will know us by our fruits, and the way we live our lives so that we shine, so that others will want to know why we shine and we can share the wonderful message of the Savior. We are all on the same side.
Thank you so much again for being honestly clear. Love the fact that we are trying to learn the understanding of what it means to be followers of Christ. Greatful for explanation and being honest about the differences.
Everything Pastor Jeff talks about living in grace, how it changes our lives giving us purpose etc, is pretty much the LDS church's explanation for all of the works we do. So there you go!
There you go missing the point! This isn’t about did you do your best or all you can do. We are not filling in gaps. Jesus Christ showed us that we must go about doing good, that the spiritual and physical welfare of our fellowmen is as important as our own, and that we should show genuine concern and compassion.
Semantics, really.
@@Lola-sz8zu I'm not missing any points. I never said anything about "filling gaps." Pastor Jeff and Brother Wilcox believe in the exact same things. All you need to do is connect the dots and realize that Grace and Works go hand in hand. That's it.
@@Lola-sz8zu If works weren't important, how are you going to be judged in the last day? If someone says, "I believe in Jesus Christ," but don't follow the commandments and don't repent, do they go to heaven or hell? The "works" help us know if we are actually accepting god's grace into our lives or just lying to God.
@@jacobbuzan374 Philippians 3. I will be found in Christs works.
A very thoughtful interdenominational conversation among Christians. Thank you Pastor Jeff!
It's interesting to note that the first book of Nephi as a lot of emphasis on works, while the second has more focus on grace, where the inflection point comes after he quotes many Messianic prophecies from the Brass Plates' Isaiah chapters. It's almost as if this progression, not unlike the contrasting tone of the Old and New Testaments, reflects Nephi's evolution from a faithful adherent of the Law of Moses to the a "born again" Christian . . .
Scripture --> Interpretation
-- 1 Nephi 3:7 - "And it came to pass that I, Nephi, said unto my father: I will go and do the things which the Lord hath commanded, for I know that the Lord giveth no commandments unto the children of men, save he shall prepare a way for them that they may accomplish the thing which he commandeth them." This early scripture shows Nephi's strict obedience to God's commandments, reflective of a Law of Moses mindset.
-- 1 Nephi 16:28-29 - "And it came to pass that I, Nephi, beheld the pointers which were in the ball, that they did work according to the faith and diligence and heed which we did give unto them. And there was also written upon them a new writing, which was plain to be read, which did give us understanding concerning the ways of the Lord; and it was written and changed from time to time, according to the faith and diligence which we gave unto it. And thus we see that by small means the Lord can bring about great things." Here, Nephi begins to understand that faith and diligence can bring about miracles and guidance from God, beyond mere adherence to law.
-- 2 Nephi 2:6-7 - "Wherefore, redemption cometh in and through the Holy Messiah; for he is full of grace and truth. Behold, he offereth himself a sacrifice for sin, to answer the ends of the law, unto all those who have a broken heart and a contrite spirit; and unto none else can the ends of the law be answered." Nephi's teachings here shift more towards the importance of the Messiah's grace for redemption, highlighting a focus on the Atonement of Christ.
-- 2 Nephi 25:23 - "For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do." This later scripture emphasizes the LDS doctrine of salvation by grace, after all we can do, showing Nephi's full realization and teaching of the importance of Christ's grace.
-- 2 Nephi 33:4 - "And I know that the Lord God will consecrate my prayers for the gain of my people. And the words which I have written in weakness will be made strong unto them; for it persuadeth them to do good; it maketh known unto them of their fathers; and it speaketh of Jesus, and persuadeth them to believe in him, and to endure to the end, which is life eternal." This verse, towards the end of Nephi's record, shows his complete faith in the power and grace of Christ and his focus on teaching his people to believe in Jesus Christ.
-- 2 Nephi 31:19-20 - "And now, my beloved brethren, after ye have gotten into this strait and narrow path, I would ask if all is done? Behold, I say unto you, Nay; for ye have not come thus far save it were by the word of Christ with unshaken faith in him, relying wholly upon the merits of him who is mighty to save. Wherefore, ye must press forward with a steadfastness in Christ, having a perfect brightness of hope, and a love of God and of all men. Wherefore, if ye shall press forward, feasting upon the word of Christ, and endure to the end, behold, thus saith the Father: Ye shall have eternal life." This scripture really encapsulates Nephi's mature understanding and teaching on the centrality of Christ's grace. Here, he emphasizes the necessity of unshaken faith in Christ, reliance on his merits for salvation, steadfastness in Christ, hope, love, and enduring to the end.
I've been looking forward to this video breakdown on this talk for a long time. I really enjoyed it. Thank you for your perspective, Pastor Jeff.
I appreciate your comments on the Wilcox video. I first saw this years ago right after he gave it, and I was touched by the words.
I loved the idea of being "saved by grace" and "changed by grace" and that Jesus has saved us" and that we should remember "also what He has saved us for." I've found the writings of N.T. Wright on us being freed, bought for a price, but "without paying attention to the larger elements in the picture, they can lead us into a private or even selfish way of seeing things.... Jesus died... to make us not rescued nonentities, but restored human beings with a vocation to play a vital part in God’s purposes for the world. Understanding what exactly happened on that horrible Friday afternoon is a big step toward making that vocation a reality.... Jesus died for our sins not so that we could sort out abstract ideas, but so that we, having been put right, could become part of God’s plan to put his whole world right."
Anyway, as I've met more people of different faiths, I have struggled a bit with not so much to doctrine discussed by Brad in this talk, but the way he talks about the beliefs of born again Christians. Some may feel that way, just like some in our church feel they have to do all we can do to earn grace. However, I find most of other faiths agree that we are saved by grace and know very well why and how we should live to follow him. Sometimes in our church we criticize other christian faiths, because we feel misunderstood, and some of the wording here shows it goes both ways.
I hope people of all faiths can take the time to really understand each other so that we (1) can appreciate how much we have in common, (2) understand where we differ, and (3) respect and love each other for the differences, and the growth it allows us.
I really appreciate your kind, and frank videos.
“After” all we can do = “Despite” all we can do…
That's a neat way of changing the definition of a word😂 mormons do it so often...I wonder why🤔
@@KnuttyEntertainment after you bow your head and say yes, you'll go to heaven. Not despite if you bow your head or not.
The meaning of that phrase is more like, after all we can, it is still Jesus who saves us.
@5maineloonsfamilypublishng415 thats the 3rd different interpretation I've seen so far
@@alesso_mesounds like you’re hitting some wrong notes. Keep seeking truth/learning. You can do it. Don’t give up.
I think part of what Brad Wilcox was saying about the "grace and beyond" point was that members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints don't believe that we are fallen because of Adam & Eve's transgression in the garden, as outlined in our Articles of Faith, "We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam's transgression." We believe that the garden was the reason for the separation of mankind from God, but that their fall was not why we personally needed a Savior in Jesus Christ. It is our own sinful ways that separate us from God without repentance; however, Christ's atonement can make up for that if we choose to accept His grace.
Your reference to Romans sounds a bit like a a semblance of "works," doesn't it? Another great discussion, Pastor Jeff!
Thank you for your insights. Keep up the good work. Thank you for not talking past each other and making it more understandable to both sides. I am really glad that I have continued to watch what you put out. Have a great day.
@Pastor Jeff, there were so many beautiful nuggets of analogies dropped by your analysis. Really lovely - thank YOU! I’m sincerely grateful for constant desire to learn from us as LDS members and also to bridge the gap of (a lot of) miscommunications between our communities. I hear your thoughts, concerns, explanations, experiences and your frustrations. Your words ARE inspiring, your desire and sincerity IS shining through. Keep it up & please, don’t give up, it’s too important!! 🙏🏻
32:32 That's one of my favorite things about this channel. As a lifelong Latter-day Saint, there are a lot of gaps in my understanding of other Christians' beliefs, of course understanding that each denomination has some differences in belief or method. This channel's been helping me see not just what's different but also what we all agree on, which has been really valuable.
Not all roads lead to Christ. Many "truths" are not accurate. "Original sin" cannot be found in the Bible. No sin occurred in Eden. The choices presented to Adam and Eve did not result in sin if they had made a wrong choice. Of course they made the right choice which had it's own consequence= the fall from immortality in Eden to mortality on earth. The power to procreate(multiply and replenish). But, becoming mortal now they become susceptible to be tempted in the flesh and commit sin. Little children are perfect in Christ and need no baptism. See Moroni 8. Pastor seems very sincere and deserves our love and respect notwithstanding his commitment to certain erroneous concepts as I have indicated.
Romans 5:12 - ‘Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned’
Romans 5:18 - ‘Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life.’
To elevate fiction to Gospel is blasphemy.
Hebrews 4:12
For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
@@Jozeemoss
thank you for validation of our truth.
John 15:18-19
18 If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you.
19 If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.
Thank you for your testimony of Christ! I appreciate your content. I feel that your work is helping us to all come to a unity of faith! I would love to visit your church sometime and hear you preach the word
I appreciate this forum for the opportunity to better clarify views and truths of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and Evangelicalism/Protestantism.
In my conversations with friends of other faith traditions, I find that there have often been two main sticking points on the subject of grace and works that cause us to ‘talk past each other’. One is, the definition of ‘salvation’. The other is how grace and personal accountability (or works) reconcile.
To set the stage, let me share some of the typical misunderstandings that have arisen in those conversations. I’ll use an example from my recent study of 2 Corinthians 5:10. One of the resources I value when reading the Bible is the traditional commentaries from leading Protestant sources that have been around for hundreds of years (famous names like Ellicott, Matthew Henry, Albert Barnes, and others.) Let’s start with the actual scripture verbiage for context (and, again, this is just one illustrative example on this subject.)
2 Cor 5:10- “For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.”
This verse is elaborated on in Protestant commentaries found in sources like the below link. biblehub.com/commentaries/2_corinthians/5-10.htm I’d recommend at least reading the first commentary by Charles Ellicott, written in the late 1800’s. The first interesting point he makes is his frustration with how the English translators chose to render a portion of it. But, more importantly to this topic, he discusses the seeming inconsistencies of Paul’s teachings where in some verses he refers to mercy and grace without qualification, while in others he refers to the criticality of accountability and works. Ellicott laments the theologies that have attempted to evade accountability and the role of works, and reinforces the importance of embracing and reconciling mercy and works. He ends his reflection by honestly acknowledging that he doesn’t exactly know how to reconcile these seeming “contradictory conclusions.”
Through continuing, modern-day revelation by latter-day prophets, apostles and continuing, living scripture, we have come to better understand and reconcile these truths, though, still not perfectly.
Coming back to where I started, the first place to start is in defining “salvation”. We learn through the Bible and modern-day revelation that the first definition of salvation is salvation from physical death. Christ redeemed all from death, without qualification. All who have ever lived, will be resurrected; full stop. (What we are resurrected to will be the point to follow.)
The second definition of salvation is salvation from spiritual death. Modern-day revelation, such as Doctrine & Covenants section 76, clarify this beautifully. We learn that the grace of Jesus Christ is even more liberal than Christianity may have ever understood or imagined. Verses 41-44 talk about the seeming vast majority who will eventually accept salvation from spiritual death. We learn that the minimum requirement (vs 110) is bowing the knee and confessing with the tongue. In this regard, LDS doctrine is not that different from our evangelical friends’ understanding, and potentially even more liberal.
Going beyond minimum salvation from spiritual death, comes the next question of what degree of resurrection we attain to? We learn from Paul in 1 Cor 15:40-42 that, “There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory. So also is the resurrection of the dead.”
Modern-day revelation elaborates on this further by helping us understand that there is a spectrum of degrees of glory, with the highest degree of glory being the “celestial”, where God and Christ dwell. We sometimes refer to this as the highest form of “salvation”, or “exaltation”. All are given the opportunity to qualify through their choices and accountability (the exercise of faith), though “few there be that find it” (or choose) that path. And, I have found no other faith tradition that is as liberal in providing ALL of God’s children equal opportunity to accept salvation and exaltation. In the end, all will choose the degree of glory they want to qualify for. Regardless of whether they have access to the fullness of truth while living on earth or not, all will eventually be given equal opportunity. A beautiful, restored truth!
Now, does the role of accountability reduce the role of the atoning grace of the Savior. No. Never. Not at all! His atoning grace is what makes any and all of it possible, whether 1) salvation from physical death, 2) salvation from spiritual death, or 3) the “what we will be resurrected to” part of salvation. With that said, He will force nothing on us. There is personal accountability and agency in keeping His requirements that He refers to as His commandments or law in progressing along that path to perfection. As we learn in Heb 6:1, “Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God…” (and the other basic requirements that Paul encourages Christ’s followers to move beyond toward perfection.) Peter wonderfully expounds on this further in 2 Peter 1, as he speaks of the other qualities we need to aspire to in becoming like Christ, saying, “...so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord…” That path of progress that beautifully combines His grace with our agency and accountability (or works), with the ultimate destination of becoming Christ-like and entering into the presence of God. How that interplay between grace and works in the context of the fullness of salvation (exaltation) fully works, I agree with Ellicott, that we don’t fully understand. But, I’m grateful for continuing, modern-day revelation that has opened the understanding further that both are indeed important, as Paul taught (even if at times taught paradoxically.)
Jeff, in my humble opinion. This path you have taken in Hello Saints, couldn't be better. I as an LDS member have learned do much more about my own faith. Hopefully this speaks for others of my faith. I believe there is a lot we don't understand on both sides. For all that is known by man. We don't even scratch the surface in understanding the infinite nature of Christ's life and the atonement. Very enjoyable learning this way.
To elevate fiction to Gospel is blasphemy.
Hebrews 4:12
For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
'He washed it white as snow!😊❤
I remember and love that hymn. Another chorus I love is " when the Blood ran red, and my sins washed white"
Great video brother!
Mosiah 27:25-26, Mosiah 3:19, Mosiah 5:2
Elder Todd Christofferson gives a interesting and well spoken talk on this subject as well as there is a talk on salvation on Church Website. I do not recall who spoke but he also spoke about similar concept of salvation and grace. 😊 It can be found in doctrinal area of website. I think of this doctinal teaching in a simple way. I am the wick of the lamp. Gods grace is the oil. He is the creator of the entire vessel. When I kneel to pray to Him, I am allowing Him to light my wick to bring his grace (light) to others who need it besides my own vessel I am in. It is really about surrendering to His will over mine. I know that might seem corny, 😏 but maybe someone can relate. ❤
To elevate fiction to Gospel is blasphemy.
Hebrews 4:12
For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
@@Jozeemoss
thank you for validation of our truth.
John 15:18-19
18 If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you.
19 If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.
This was a great video! I think it was one of the most enlightening so far from Hello Saints. When 'science' and 'religion' conflict, it is usually bad or oversimplified versions of both that are used in the argument. I am realizing that this is true also of doctrinal differences between The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and Evangelicals. While there are some real and important differences, it is no reason to contemptuously strawman someone else's belief. Which is why I appreciate this channel.
Yes, I do believe in his teaching. Brad Wilcox is not only a BYU professor, but one of our Church leaders (General Young Mens Presidency), watching over our young men. He has also been a mission president. What he teaches is what latter-day saints believe, or should believe.
@danascully7358 I thought it was interesting he chose to cut our the clarification on "after all we can do" as that is one of the biggest things evangelicals misunderstand. Brother Wilcox clarifies, with no uncertainty that such a statement means "despite all you can do." I think that is the most important point to clarify. I know he has yo be brief, but that is #1.
I think I see a very clear difference now in LDS views about heaven vs the evangelical view. Evangelicals believe that heaven is just people in God's presence and while that's true there is an underlying utopia to that belief. People being in God's presence does not automatically make heaven, otherwise there'd be no need for God to have thrown out 1/3 of the hosts of heaven. Similarly, if the garden of Eden was heaven, Adam and Eve would not have made decisions that would lead them out of there.
God knows that heaven would stop being heaven if He let anyone dwell in it. So in order for heaven to remain heaven, not only God has to be there, but also the right kind of people have to be there too. That's why Christ asks us to practice and learn heaven so we don't go in there unchanged unto corrupting heaven again.
Well put
Another excellent job of analyzing what’s really behind the back and forth rhetoric between LDS and Evangelical. Thanks, Pastor Jeff! ❤️
Brother Wilcox’s comedic personality often comes through when speaking. He’s so funny and laughs and smiles easily, especially when speaking to the youth. Even when he’s having a serious conversation (like with the video of him discussing our beliefs with a pastor on stage with a full audience) he can’t help cracking a few jokes. But he always knows how to bring it back to the principles in sincerity. Love him for his ability to teach the doctrine this way.
The Alpine fireside shows he actually thinks people will buy what he sells wholesale with little opposition.
@BrendonKing- hello. I don't think Wilcox was trying to wholesale anything during the Alpine fireside. I think he was completely oblivious to his White Privilege and how it came across as
arrogance. I also think that was a wake-up call for him. Hopefully he has more humility now.
@@micheleh3851 He said nothing wrong. There is no such thing as “white privilege” in 2023. Maybe in 1823, but not today, so that excuse is done. People are just too reactive and offended over everything now.
@@BrendonKing well, that’s one point of view, (but not the correct one).
@sdb816 - With all due respect, if you ask any person of color they will tell you that White Privilege is alive and well in 2023. The fact that you can't see it is probably exactly the same reason why Brad Wilcox didn't see it.
Thank you Jeff! Always appreciate your approach and your well spoken research. Thanks for teaching on inaugurated eschatology. Completely new to me.
I loved this whole breakdown, and I see so many similarities! For example, you mentioned how you don't quite agree with the concept of "trying", but you consider this "faith". The LDS church teaches that faith is a principle of action, and if we fall short, I would consider that "trying". 😄 If I go back to the Hebrew word for repentance, "shûb", it means to turn-from or return (to Him). To me, this implies action, not just belief. Same with the Greek word for repentance, metanoia, which is a transformation of body, mind, and spirit. So while repentance is not the same as grace, as people take His grace into their lives, these words of action are applied. Again, thank you for your teaching, feedback, and wisdom!
Another good video. Obviously we are still talking past each other and misunderstanding each other. At least there is good dialogue like this.
I’m sure we would both like to see each other saved by the grace of Jesus Christ.
Presbyterian/Non Denom turned LDS here, I would hope no member thinks we are saved by anything other than the Grace of God. Works are fruits of faith and things that enhance and deepen our relationship with the Lord but they are not what saves us. The Bible and the book of Mormon emphasize how this is the way by which men are saved.
I SO agree that we have a problem of talking past each other. And I truly appreciate your work and efforts to help with that problem!
I think it’s a good example of how Wilcox’s discussion shows that Latter-Day Saints may tend to overgeneralize the “Evangelical” ideas in efforts to explain themselves. I love how you’re helping people talk to one another instead of past one another.
Jeff, as a Latter-day saint, i believe that heaven, for you, will be almost exactly the way you have described in your videos. We're not at cross purposes, you're just describing the Terrestrial Kingdom. You'll be with Christ, no marriage, peace and rest, and no real continuation in progression. As a Latter-day saint, i don't think I'm better than anyone else, i just have a lot more responsibility with the information i have with the covenants I've made. I may disagree with some of your beliefs Jeff, but i think you are an honorable man doing a good work, spending your time bringing people together rather than dividing. I love you for it brother.
This is awesome! Thank you so much for highlighting this talk by Brad Wilcox and also clear up misunderstandings between other Christian beliefs. This is what we need more of - focusing on our commonalities as opposed to what sets us apart and building on our similarities.
As a member of the Latter Day Saints I appreciate this channel and all your efforts. I found peace and forgiveness when I was directed to this church. Now feeling the Love Christ has for me daily, I finally at long last understand what the word and emotion fully means.
I can not say enough about how much i appreciate the way you approach and discuss these previously very touchy subjects between LDS members and mainstream Christianity. I am learning so much from you, and I'm amazed with the way you constructively teach your beliefs.
I personally LOVE this talk, and have taught from it many times (I taught early morning youth seminary for 4 years), and i truly appreciate your thoughts and comments on it. You are amazing!!!👍👍
@raptay29 Thanks ... it's pretty amazing how we all tend to hear and listen better when we simply, lovingly speak with each other.
As a loyal but very imperfect member of the Church Of Jesus Christ Of Latter Day Saints, and a year long subscriber to your channel, I just love watching your content. You have been such a great example to ALL Christians how to be Christ like despite any differences we may have in doctrines and beliefs. I love that you regularly ask everybody commenting to be respectful. Thanks for all you for humanity 🙂
To elevate fiction to Gospel is blasphemy.
Hebrews 4:12
For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
Hi Pastor Jeff, just wanted to say that I really appreciate your thoughtful responses and have enjoyed watching the videos. As a practicing member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, yet growing up in the mid-west with a significant religious (and very mainstream Christian) presence, I know first-hand how often people of different religious experiences can "speak past" one another when sharing their understanding of the Gospel and scripture passages - and especially when ardently defending against mis-characterizations of other's (and their own!) faith tradition beliefs.
Your approach is refreshing and much needed in a world where unity and respect are severely lacking. Please continue helping foster the discussion, as many in the LDS community need to know that it - is - possible to create space for mutually edifying discourse and relationships with brothers and sisters inside and outside of mainstream Christian circles. Let's fight criticism with curiosity!
@c4iro Amen!
Excellent job! Thanks again for building these bridges!
20:09 It’s great to learn that trying to be more like the Savior is taught in evangelical churches. A few thoughts on this:
1. I’m glad because I grew up Catholic and this was definitely not something that was reflected in the fruits of the people around me, nor did it feel like something that was even emphasized in any way. I often heard people say to justify bad habits or bad behavior, “I’m not a priest” or “I’m not a saint” or “I’m not the pope”.
2. It surprises me to hear that this is taught, yet from my understanding baptism is optional in evangelical churches. This is something that the Savior taught by example and commanded his disciples to do for ALL nations baptizing them in the name of the father, the son and the Holy Ghost (Matthew 28:19-20). Not just “some nations”, or those who “opt in to baptism”.
That whole optional thing is mostly Presbyterians due to the Calvinism. It has to be mentioned that Reformed is a catch all word. Among Eastern Evangelicals and Messianic Jews we hold strictly to the teachings of the Messiah Yeshua.
@@darkforgiven360 that’s helpful to know. Thanks for sharing!
I'm not sure which Catholic church you went to but at every Catholic mass I've been , we read the bible , and we receive the body and blood of our Lord and savior at every mass
Receiving communion , makes us become like the savior!
I love holy communion, I know that Christ is truly present in the sacrament. I could never leave my catholic faith , I would not be in communion with Christ.
I think it's important to note the differences in understanding of a concept or doctrine from the perspective of church leaders (Brad Wilcox and Pastor Jeff) compared to the average members of the LDS and Christian communities because they are definitely NOT the same. As Bro Wilcox pointed out in his talk, an LDS girl had the wrong idea about grace and he had to teach her. Likewise, I'm sure if we pulled a random person from Pastor Jeff's congregation they would likely have a more difficult time explaining the concept than he would as a pastor.
So not to defend the condescending tone Bro Wilcox used describing how other Christians talk to LDS people, but his characterization of what was said is anecdotally more accurately reflecting what I've experienced that the average everyday Christian vocalizes when trying to discuss the matter.
I served a 2-year mission in Orange County California where Mega churches are huge (Saddleback Church and Mariners Church) and I can't tell you the number of times I heard people while talking in the streets say the kinds of things that Pastor Jeff said are a mischaracterization of what mainstream Christianity teaches. And I believe he is correct in saying that those things are not the official doctrine that is taught, but as I said, there appears to be a discrepancy between official teachings and comprehension from the community at large on both sides (LDS and mainstream Christianity).
I remember vividly one particular conversation I had with a man who lived in our apartment complex and asked us what we were doing. We explained that we were missionaries teaching people about Jesus and the first thing he asked was "Are you saved?" When we told him yes he seemed very skeptical and started questioning us about grace. It, unfortunately, turned into a bit of a bible bash because this man claimed that there was absolutely nothing he could do to lose his salvation because one time 20+ years ago he said a single prayer and was "saved." He literally (I am not exaggerating) claimed that he could spend the rest of his days "KICKING NEWBORN BABIES DOWN THE STREET" and he would still go to heaven and enjoy eternal bliss because of that single prayer he said 20+ years ago.
When we talk about "works" or "trying" is as imperfect humans who live in a state of sin, we must work or try to overcome the state of the natural man. That when we realize we have sinned, we are blessed with the ability to repent for our acknowledged sins. We need to continue to self assess our behaviors and actions, daily. We all fall short, but by grace are forgiven.
Thank you Pastor Jeff for sharing this episode on grace including Brad. As a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, I've had several relationships with members of various Christian sects who shared that their understanding and belief of grace is (as Brad described) simply accepting Jesus as theirs personal Savior and that is the end no matter what sin follows.
I appreciate your clarification and I agree with another Christians comments that, by my own experience, the concept of grace as taught in your episode from an evangelical standpoint would bless many Christians lives for those parts of grace to be taught more clearly in all of Christianity. Your views on grace as shared here are much more in line with what we believe in our Christian teachings in our LDS faith, compared to my other Christian friends who have shared their evangelical understanding of grace. I have no doubt every Christian religion, including ours, have room to grow in teaching clearer principles of Christ and the point of us being saved and how that becomes exemplified in our lives. ❤ Thank you!