From a woman’s point of view, her saying that the date was unofficial meant that it was not a romantic date. It was two people going out and doing something together, like buddies.She was telling him that she was not romantically interested in him, and that any time she spent with him was just as friends.
Yeah. Altough the relationship was saved, it all was so sad. I mean all those described events were just people hurting their closest and getting into detrimental relationships.
J L I don’t think you can taint Dr Todd Grande as ‘trashy’ because of the behaviour of his subject matter. He hasn’t sensationalised the material in any way, it’s merely an observation and analysis of human behaviour. Sadly, it does exist in our society and I think it’s more helpful discussing it than ignoring it. Education is empowering.
John reminds me a lot of my ex, who was diagnosed with covert narcissism. If Rhonda had reciprocated his affection, I guarantee she would have been devalued just like Sally. The fact that she was the perpetual "prize" to be won, so to speak, kept her on John's pedestal. The fact that he would rub this stuff in Sally's face and only stay with her because HE didn't want to be alone (bc who cares how Sally feels?) is the icing on the cake. So based on the info. given, I definitely would agree that the guy is most likely a covert narcissist.
There's a sucker born every minute now that I'm broke can you just give me some free money I'll go out with you I would have told her you should ask the guy that woke up with his thing in your mouth it wasn't me stop that grinning and drop that linen she would have at least had more respect for him
Official date means that you actually have a chance at...a future together, sex, care for each other, etc. An unofficial date means you’re just hanging out with each other like friends, only in this case, Rhonda has this guy figured out and was just using him all along. The fact that he could not see that is amazing.
I'm only a master's level clinician, but I see a lot of parallels between the pathology in this case study, with De Clerambault Syndrome. John appears to be obsessed, and it must have been pretty bad to still be in such bad shape after 20 years. I also thought about the possibility of Delusional Disorder, erotomanic type just because he did appear delusional, and his level of obsession was significant to say the least. I'd love to touch on John's attachment issues! There seems to be a social component to this type of obsession. Very interesting case!
"John" struck me as immature. That kind of idealizing a love interest seems like the kind of thing an adolescent would do to protect his fragile self-esteem.
Very well said. And he stayed at that same level or thinking about this girl, even as he chronologically aged. Then he developed delusions to fit his need to be the hero no matter what. In addition, he was fixated on her looks. He valued her looks for a few different reasons, and did not even apply good judgement about her becoming a criminal!!!
You're a good therapist, Dr Grande. You can tell this story of vapid, superficial and manipulative people with gentleness. Salute, good sir. Thank you! 👍🌹
Slightly random thought, but getting stuck on this woman and this rejection made me think of the Golden State Killer and his obsession with his ex-fiancee Bonnie. I'm not sure if we'll ever know exactly what happened, but it it made me think of someone with a clear personality disorder who got "stuck in a moment in time" as you mention, Dr. Grande. Like many, I've been following this and find this case fascinating for so many reasons. I hope that you'll be able to talk about it in an upcoming video.
I am a professional counselor and I surely don't know all this information that Dr Grande has provided here. I am learning a lot from this series. It is more informative than all my years working as a counselor. Thank you.
Are these actually grown up people? What immature, disfunctuonal people this cast of characters are! Sounds like a mini series of disturbingly sad proportions! 😦 WOW!!!! Just WOW!!! 🙄 The psychology of a person can be more alarming than one can possibly imagine! Birds of a feather huh?🐦 Sally and Rhonda seem equally as disfunctional as John in this sad tale of human foibles. I'm not judging...just an observation. Interesting story. 🤓
Yes very immature. If people only have a high school education, they don't endure as many self transforming hurdles as others who go on in school do, so they tend to remain small minded, unless they do things to grow their minds... I hope that I have not insulted anyone... I did not intend to. I am explaining how the guy in the vignette was holding on to Rhonda.
@@maidenmarian1 this can sometimes be true, I would be inclined to agree observing some people I know, although the case has been made at times that going on to further schooling keeps people in a kind of false adolescence longer. Social experience, self discipline, and personal accountability are essential no matter what the environment.
@@maidenmarian1 not really, there are so many paths he could have taken other than continuing education to improve his mentality. School has nothing to do with mind, and university is actually one of the easiest paths to choose. It's not much of a "hurdle". There are plenty of immature people who have PhDs, and vice versa.
As juvenile as this relationship presents, it is the reality of many clients' lives. It is as if something happens...and they are stuck in some kind of stage during which all things are possible..."let me remain in my fantasy". The drama immediately triggered thoughts of substance use..."let's focus on anything but how I feel...It's just too painful" Sounds like a whole lot of denial and external focus: "to focus on me is a train wreck." It seems sad.
I’m not certain one has to have a personality disorder to possess romantic delusions. I’ve known two women who had romantic delusions and they were both mentally ill and I mean seriously mentally ill. Not just a personality disorder. I think that romance is an irrational concept and even normal people can lack realism in this area of their life. Wonderful story and analysis, Dr. Grande and thank you.
"Official date" = possibility for sex if all goes well. Non-official: Intimacy is out of the question no matter where the guy takes you, how much he spends, brings you flowers, etc. Not gonna happen.
EEEWWW. Fire Horse, you are probably younger than I am and most likely male so this is how that would be understood in the male mind. (Not that there is anything wrong with that, I guess...) To me an "Official date" would have the Meaning that the possibility for a deeper relationship might exist in the future. An official date might be seen as future oriented. But in some person's minds it could mean sex. BUT Sex is not a lasting event nor is it something that ensures any future.
@@maidenmarian1 Surprise! I'm a woman, age 53! An American who has lived nearly 20 years in Paris so have dated men of all nationalities. Yes I agree under the surface we are all really searching for THE ONE but in the immediacy of the date, it starts with sexual desire. Romance = Desire, attraction, candlelight bubble baths and all the rest. This woman clarified "non official" date so as to not get the guy's hopes up. She would have felt guilty if he spent hundreds on a fancy dinner, flowers, whatever and she knew she was going to reject him.
@UCUZn8XigsbXlRdpgKpOXc7A Yes it does tell the woman something. It IS a badly ruined red flag if he does not pay for you. I just recently realized from another site all of the money we women spend to look good. You are correct. Boy I would LOVE TO LEARN your stories if living in Paris for 20 years.
This was fascinating to listen to with impeccable story formatting; providing contextual background, building up the archetypes, then laying out the assessments. While I love the entirety of your channel and resources, I wish you'd begin a playlist just for case studies like this. #bravo #encore
I just want to say that Dr. Grande has the best video intro of anyone on YT. Straight to the point. And about this case - when does the novelization come out?
This is one of my favorite channels also!! I am glad I finally got to see this one that I missed last week. This was great! I like how it teases out the various Cluster B disorders. I LOVED THIS!
“Official dates” are when both parties want to be with the other & romance is the specific intent of both parties. “Unofficial dates”/“hanging out” is when 1 person has clear romantic intent & the 2nd person agrees to spend time with the 1st person to see what kind of relationship they want with this person. Usually you end up “just friends” but occasionally this CAN lead to being “friends with benefits”, SOMETIMES it can end up as a “real relationship”... I hope that clears it up for you
During all story I took much more interest in *RHONDA* than in John, or Sally. First thought she was *narcisisstic, but rather later thought of SOCIOPATH.* Like it looked, she was at first using him for her own pettieness. Like her wanted adoration, but not carring... But during hearing this story, my guess, she 'dated' him to see how USEFUL could he be. Maybe Sally told her of her growing intetest and she wanted to controll Sallys potential happieness through John? It will sounds psychopathic, through and I rather don't see Rhonda as composed, highly funcionall...but jealous and self-entitled she probably was. Through not all psychopaths have to be 'high funcional' ... Also, not know much about Rhonda background, or John ones. As on both sides it could and probably was some type of COMPENSATION, especially in sociopath case, nurturing have high meaning... However, as Rhonda seems to used John AND most likely 'put spell' on him for her own reasons(maybe it was fun to her), John fall into obsession, which in some HEALTH cases could get much worse - I know I am looking through my own prism, but what his history is saying about him having, for example, epileptic(or autistic, or Asperger MILD as he seems socially active) tendencies? Not necessarly hard case, but epilepsy always lead to added impulses into brain and frontal or temporal added impulses can lead to growing obsessiveness, agressiveness, being impatient... So developing some Cluster B 'tendencies' . 😁 I had buddy that was in depression, that kept obsessing over long married puppy crush, but she gave him 'mixed signals' and he kept hoping. If Rhonda shown some DEPENDENCY on John and he had same White Horse Knight syndrome as my buddy - needing to FEEL needed, with Rhonda giving him glimpses of hope, he kept it alive... And Sally, through her own growing crush, maybe inferiority syndrome Rhondas 'being star' developed in her, became CO-ADDICTED in this relationship. She KNEW John prefered Rhonda. She felt inferior to her. So by 'winning him over' she wanted to defeat her, maybe? It is possible, Rhondas sociopathic personality lead into such un-ecsapeable Love Triangle, where one part made two others depended on her so much, her ghost is among them, even if her body is not... 🤔 But this is just a guess I am making without details... 🤔 *Had great time analysing Your analys as I love such cases!* 😁
Yes! And her choice of partners. Why would she select partners who have drug and law problems? It would be fascinating to identify what socio-psychological mechanisms lead to development of these "dead end" strategies in such seemingly valued individuals, now that it seems like it's more and more common. Is it connected to grandiose narcissism and feeling of entitlement, exploitation or abuse in youth or misleading allure of alternative lifestyles and possiblities presented in media?
@@henrykkaufman1488 I think what is guilt is what I call 'celebritisation' of current times. As in World Wide Web people are spreeding false picture of present and correcting it how only possible on global scale. So little kids see perfect world and try to be as perfect, that leads only to bigger isolation if they feel they are not able to... Not telling of all mental and neurological problems it leads to... And so we fall into duality of existing in two worlds, of which one we can't be 'good enough' for as others see us through prism of lances they put during operating in VR. So we only swim deeper into VR, which is false. In effect our real life is often unsatisfying and if it will go on, more and more people will drop even trying, as VR is growing more and more what we imagine 'perfect real' could be. So future generations are risking dropping imperfectness of reality for deciving charm of efortless virtuality. Like Japan that had about 20%+ of 40 years old virgins... 🤔 We still can focuse on smaller picture, but as we were nurtured into observing WORLD instead of SURROUNDINGS, it is harder and harder to focuse over SMALL, so imperfect picture... 🤔 And NO ONE want to be NOBODY in world, they THINK everyone is SOMEONE ...
Dr. Grande, I would like to know, why persons with strong narcissism have a capability to show extreme kindness and a (childlike) amount of innocence (far above average), when they are feeling happy and satisfied. Could you do a video like "Narcissist and proud of it/ok with it" or "The loveable aspects of high trait narcissism" No jokes, I'm serious as always. Have a nice day. 🐰
They are ensnaring by making themselves look lovable like a baby. It is a trap of course preying on nurturing nature of women. Some are good at it, they have been practicing lovable faces/behaviors for their entire lives. Some even look like infants. Big tall infants.
they have impulse control issues. they will only stop when sb. from the outside stops them because they can't stop on their own. deep inside they know that what they are doing is wrong even though they are too ashamed to admit it and talk themselves into believing that after all it's not so bad when they do sth. good as a repair.
I don’t know if it’s because it makes me feel better about myself or cos I feel like I’m educating myself but I LOVE content like this, discussing all the nuances of how fucked up people and their relationships are. Your videos are great in general but please do more of this style
Game playing. Have to remember all of this information about Ronda is reported by John. At the very beginning of the story he stole his grandmothers money to buy better clothing and get a different car. To look different. Appear better/different without doing the hard work to get achieve the results. He reports all of his old high school classmates have attractive partners.
I love these case studies, UC psychology in real life thank you you are totally awesome 😘 That sounds interesting the getting stuck part, I know that when people are indoctrinated into cults that has to be a factor, they are essentially stuck at that mental age. Just an observation
This is a great case study! To me, covert narcissism is the core of all cluster B and if there was a consstruct of pathological covert narcissism, this one would be a clear candidate for it! No devaluation, only idealization? That's more of a histrionic thing than borderline. He thinks he can fix her? well that's clearly a type of codependency that often comes with covert narcissism... think about it, no one could fix her but I can, it's where codependency and narcissism somewhat meet. I don't see borderline, anti-social, grandiose narcissism and histrionic pathology, but it screams pathological people fixer and covert narc. Modern psychoanalysis calls it the borderline representation, which is the other side of the grandiose continuum but doesn't necessarily mean BPD criteria will be met (as seen here). I feel it's simply where HPD/BPD/pathological covert narcissim/pathological codependency/secondary psychopathy meet and that is opposed by the grandiose, non neurotic representation of narcissism and psychopathy.
Doctor Grande: what are the causes of being emotionally stunted? What can an emotionally stunted adult do about their immaturity, if not insecurity? Is autism comorbid with having impaired maturity?
dasein I few up in a housiwith domestic violence. I don’t think I was emotionally stunted per se but had reall issues in relationships. Unsurprisingly I ended up in violent relationships. Many years later and lots of therapy I am in a wonderful relationship. I’m still receiving counseling fir many reasons, we’re currently working on me recognising and accepting my emotions. I’m a great mother and am very proud of the fact that despite all my problems I was able to bring my son up alone, in love and safety. I don’t know if that is in any way pertinent to your question
Seems John wanted what he could not get and the trauma of rejection bonded him to Rhonda. She uses poor John knowing he loves her and he settles for poor Sally who will never be enough. This can happen to a lot of people who cant accept that not everyone will love the way you want to be loved.He could have solved his problem if he went on to find a more attractive partner instead of marrying Sally.His fear of being alone means he will always settle instead of learning to love himself. It reminds me of the song 'if you cant be with the one you love, then love the one your with'.Great story.
Don’t know if it was mentioned down below but one thing that struck me was how John would “coincidentally” run into Rhonda at the mall or various places around town. Can you say stalker?? How about obsession with Rhonda, the one that got away? There’s also the long duration of his enmeshment with Rhonda. He perceived her as the ideal love that would always be esteemed as better than anyone else *because* of her rejection of him! She devalued him, so he valued her more for that. Narcs like to pursue what they can’t or shouldn’t have. Based on what I heard of the details in this case study, he is definitely a Narc!
I really like these videos much better than the famous serial killers and analyzing characters in movies. In other words I like real world/regular joes.
This shows that diagnosing someone from a far is not a good idea. Or yourself for that matter. I think John had a lack of selfrespect and self love and he obsesses over a persons beauty and exaggerates what he is entitled to. He also settles for someone he does not love. A sign of disrespect towards himself. He is in denial and avoided hurt by ignoring facts and changing it to fake info to make himself the hero. Have the patience wait for what you deserve. And the self respect to say no to someone who is not right for you. It is better to be alone loving yourself. Than with someone who dont love you or someone you do not love. Its funny how wanting an in your eyes attractive partner is really just wanting someone who is different from yourself the cause if this being selfhatred. By loving yourself and your lesser traits you Also become more open to loving someone else for who they are. Appreciate yourself and others for what they are. Give yourself the care you give others.
Andreas Leon Landgren A resounding YES. It's better to be alone and love yourself than to be with someone who doesn't love you or you don't love. I think the person who feels they've settle will eventually be filled with resentment and bitterness.
I thought Rhonda saying she’d go somewhere with John, but that it was not an official date, is a good way for her to have responded. It makes it pretty clear where she stands, unless a guy is really thick-headed. She was not attracted to him on initial impression, but was willing to see if there was something to him that might change her opinion. Fair enough (of course).
Always nice to see you give the case patient your foremost concern Dr Grande Sorry I replied late, out of hope John would not present me a bubbly love heart in the comment section. (😍Rhonda and Sally but mostly Rhonda)
How do you diagnose an unspecified personality disorder? Are there a certain number of criteria that must be met? Is there a minimum number of personality disorders that that criteria must be drawn from?
Ok. What is the treatment that would help these people, and what is the goal of the treatment? Hello? I'd like to hear more than what's wrong with them. What is useful treatment and what do you hope to achieve, please.
Love these case studies. You should do MOAR!!! Sounded like a reeeeeaaaaalllly long love bombing (and hoovering? if the unofficial date followed by her finding someone else or prison counts as an unofficial break off) with a very high value target with Sally as back up supply. Rhonda was high value because of his friends comments. Like some kind of a status symbol. Devaluing didn't happen because he didn't succeed in getting her for long enough by the time the case study was written :p A rejected narcissist will hoover. If rejection happens before devaluing... She may probably seem irresistible - still idealized, has shown some potential for interest... Though while I can imagine a narcissist's child mind giving all the money he had to the object of his infatuation, I can't imagine the narcissist desiring her after being assaulted. Maybe Sam Vaknin has something going with his descriptions of narcissistic mortification with the narcissist idealizing the person who mortified him to maintain a facade of control ("I caused her to misbehave" rather than "she humiliated me") as a coping mechanism. Whatever it was, it sounded very NPD/Cluster B and if there weren't enough traits for diagnosis, maybe the DSM6 needs to chalk it up to John Personality Disorder. lol
Wow that's a sad case! I've never been married but I can't imagine being married 2 some1 who wanted 2 b with some1 else. I think I'd b way 2 proud 2 stay married 2 them!
Ikr! OMG I finally see why people don't like "let's just be friends" 😅 I've rejected and have been rejected, it happens. But either way I've been open to platonic friendship (within respectful reason). I do see how that could complicate things, even if on a smaller scale than this case study. I don't think I'll be saying "can we still be friends" again 😉
@Nikki Pettway I can understand that. I guess for me, if I'm rejected but they still want to kayak, hike or whatever, it may sting for a bit but I have enough self love and respect for others to honor their decision and still enjoy their company :) If I reject someone, I can't expect them to process it like I do. I find that disappointing because even healthy friendships are hard to come by and a lot of great people lose touch. It really seems like our society could use some quality authentic connections... at from my POV in the US.
@@o_o5002 OH I have so much to say about this. Some years back in my 50's this guy who was 60, came up with "I only want to be friends for now, You're a good person, I still want to go to the group weekly, but I only want to be friends for now." There was more but I will leave it there. It took me ten years to quit the group. This guy denied allowing me to get to know him outside of this group and at all. He never acted like any sort of friend except for a comment now and then. It was stupid. I was pissed off during our conversation and I did not hide it. He would not tell me why AND I WAS IRATE, WANTING AN ANSWER. I have rejected and been rejected too. It is an ugly business. I am sick of all of that. I also had a hope for a platonic friendship with this guy, but no way from this one that I am referring to. HE would rather stare at women than KNOW THEM.
Thank you for this ❤ Great case study! Could it be psychopathy? She is a goal. And he used her unattractive friend as a pawn to get close to the attractive one, which denotes: superficiality, goal-oriented behaviour and inebriated by the chase, lack of empathy, and no concern of how his behaviour could affect Sally, belief that others have more than what they deserve, his feelings don't get hurt from rejection, focuses on the bright side, and takes money!! Kevin Dutton for instance said he would not steal money from his grandma, and the guy here took it only after she passed away, which doesn't count. He was convicted, he PROVOKED the other guy, and got away with "menacing and disturbing the peace". He thought of himself as a R's hero... 😅😂❤
I grew up around country people and people going deaf. Sometimes, I talk loud due to that but docs who over analyze people will make negative assumptions about it. years ago talking loud around country people wasn't a big deal and city people who were bothered were viewed as being immature and easily offended. all rights reserved
That was very interesting! I can't believe how long his obsession for Rhonda remained. And then to learn of her very questionable character.... I guess in some cases, love (if that's what you'd call it?) really is blind. Great episode Dr. Grande! Thank you!
Great case analysis. I know that you have an extremely well developed clinical judgement, It seems to me a bit though that here you see all trees, but not the wood...? Or am I the one who is totally misguided here? This can be true, of course. So, why have you ruled out Cluster A, when you admit that there is delusional thinking going on there? Poor bounderies? A bit too trusty? Always optimistic inspite of contrary evidence? A lot of idealisation but no devaluation? Obsessed with one person only? (I think his empathy is also VERY bad). The guy suffers from de Clérambault resp. erotomania, I think. Maybe one sign for a cluster A disorder. Worth for further exploring maybe. I agree on what one commenter says: he is an immature person. He behaves rather like it is typical for a a teen or twen. He's acting out everything he feels. A developmental thing. I love that you don't like this "official date" wording, this is cute for a counseling professor* Imo the woman says very clearly, I don't see a candidate for a relationsship in you, you're not my man, just a friend (with or without sex), nothing serious. Usually a clear no go sign. Also love what you say in 19:22, since this is exactly what I criticise in clinical thinking. I guess, it happens quite often, that persons fit the criteria only subclinically but at the same time for very many disorders? This is dissatisfying for me personally. Thank you so much for doing these case studies, though you are not directly rewarded for it. Am very grateful.🙏 Have a great day. ❤ *not derogatorily said, I really mean cute 🐰
@@nyyotam4057 Thank you for your comment, in which you go even further in your questioning as I did.😊 I think I remember two types of the de clérambault syndrome, one as a symptom of the schizophrenic illness itself or its related personality types (schizotypal etc.)and one as a single delusion without any further psychotic reactions, but often lifelong lasting as a delusional disorder. I think Sally was with him in psychotherapy, so this person exists, even when it might be true that he misinterpreted her actions also, just like Rhondas. What makes me so sceptical of him being in cluster B is actually, that I think Rhonda herself is such a type of person - and he totally misses what she is trying to tell him. Would that be realistic if both are in the same cluster? Isn't there some basic psychological understanding between two people belonging to the same personality cluster that makes the forming of a delusion rather unlikely?
@@nyyotam4057 I don't see Sally as an angel. She is finacially dependent on him, ("help me with the bills") and sometimes middleaged women become to lazy to look for a new guy, because the dating is too time consuming and strenuous. I have also noticed that case studies are often a bit unrealistic, due to the fact, that they are written by therapists - and some of them aren't very realistic persons either. Thus these stories sometimes have a fairytale like style. P.S I'm 46, too. 😊
A very great and informative video, once again. Thank you for your outstanding work! Concerning this special case, I understand that all of the three main characters had their problems...but all I could think on various occasions was: Poor "Sally"!
It's low self esteem, probably generously given to them by their parents, who probably also had low self esteem. It's also personality and behavioral expressions of the low self esteem. What is the goal of the undescribed therapy?
@An Gry I like your first notion very much. 😊 Yeah, often psychology and psychotherapy is actually only about functioning, life satisfaction doesn't really matter. Your latter remark: yes, this might be true also, in case the counselor is a christian for example. Not true for all of them. Counselors have imo sometimes quite different ideological backgrounds on which they base their therapeutic technique on. Thank you for your comment.
I wonder if John just legitimately loved Rhonda? Is that even a remote possibility? It seems that he could see nothing negative in Rhonda despite the fact that she had a drug habit, used him for money, etc. Is it possible that he had her on a pedestal that just allowed him to see no fault in her? As for Sally, she was just crying out for some kind of attention from John and it appears that he had no real feelings for her at all. Very sad story.
He sounds like a fairly normal guy to me, aside from being obsessed with the same person for such an extended period of time. Based on what you've described, I'd be more interested in looking into Cluster C on this one; specifically OCPD if there is other supporting evidence. Some characteristics of OCPD can look like NPD on the surface, right? Is it possible that what you are calling delusions or cognitive distortions could possibly be optimistic and hopeful, yet obsessive speculations on reasons why he has not yet succeeded in winning Rhonda's affections?
i think the only reason that john doesn't have any extreme or violent acts in his history is because he married sally. he doesn't care about his wife or her behavior. if he had married rhonda, his obsession with her would have lead to intense reactive behavior and likely violence, because the woman he described would not have been faithful or frugal.
Sometimes women want to state that date is "unofficial" because they are worried about contrast between their uncertanity and guy's eagerness. I think because date is a mildly stressful activity this reduction of importance of date context makes them feel safe and less awkward.
There also is a factor of maintaining the reputation and on top of that, anyone's motivation is a bit diffirent but I think most of the times safety and comfort are the main factors. Notice: safety and comfort are things that, in a heterosexual relation, man is (again, generally) responsible for. So these types of situations are important and can bring loss or gain, depending on approach.
This, for sure. She could have just been using him like so many people are commenting, but when I was younger I tried to do what I think could be similar (not necessarily calling it “unofficial”, but... trying to temper the guy and lower expectations). I wasn’t looking for free food - I genuinely wanted to get to know the guys. It doesn’t really work and I’d probably just say no to someone like this now. IMO, unmoderated eagerness is a red flag and sign of boundary problems.
Honesty needs not to be cruel. I can't imagine how 'Ronda' would feel it necessary to break off with those words, unless something not shared by John made her angry.
Very informative video, thank you. What I want to know is can witnessing verbal and emotional abuse between parents and then splitting (not divorced but living separately) at a young age cause ASPD? I ask this because this has happened to me and I have almost all the characteristics of factor 2 psychopathy. I'd be very grateful if you could answer this :) I'm going to copy and paste this question in the comments section of other videos of yours I've watched in order to hopefully get an answer.
Excluding Sally from the equation, this story reminds me a lot of the movie, Casino, starring Robert De Niro and directed by Martin Scorsese. The main character played by De Niro is fixated on an attractive girl Who use relationships as transactional and is fixated on money and drugs. He marries her anyways and gets f’d over by her. His character is unbelievably forgiving and enabling of her bad behavior. The moral of the story is, the things men will do to have a pretty girl on their arm.
It's extremely cute to watch how eagerly some of Dr. G.'s subscribers try to help him out with this "official dating" issue. .. 🐰😊 Dr. Grande, there are three things in life one will never know: 1) what's in the sausage, 2) how the court will decide and 3) how people belonging to the opposite sex actually think. But anyway, I wish everyone a happy day. 🎉
Please do more case studies.
From a woman’s point of view, her saying that the date was unofficial meant that it was not a romantic date. It was two people going out and doing something together, like buddies.She was telling him that she was not romantically interested in him, and that any time she spent with him was just as friends.
This is the trashiest story ever- I mean who gets into these relationships... great video and eye opening!
Yeah. Altough the relationship was saved, it all was so sad. I mean all those described events were just people hurting their closest and getting into detrimental relationships.
@@henrykkaufman1488 The relationship was saved?
J L I don’t think you can taint Dr Todd Grande as ‘trashy’ because of the behaviour of his subject matter. He hasn’t sensationalised the material in any way, it’s merely an observation and analysis of human behaviour. Sadly, it does exist in our society and I think it’s more helpful discussing it than ignoring it. Education is empowering.
@@jemimac6054 yeah people do these things, unfortunately. Some guys never grow up in how they see the women around them...
Maristella yet, neither did Rhonda evolve beyond using her attractiveness to manipulate.
John reminds me a lot of my ex, who was diagnosed with covert narcissism. If Rhonda had reciprocated his affection, I guarantee she would have been devalued just like Sally. The fact that she was the perpetual "prize" to be won, so to speak, kept her on John's pedestal. The fact that he would rub this stuff in Sally's face and only stay with her because HE didn't want to be alone (bc who cares how Sally feels?) is the icing on the cake. So based on the info. given, I definitely would agree that the guy is most likely a covert narcissist.
I agree with you Mrs Richie. There is obvious cluster B pathology.
John's primary goal in life appears to be to find a girl who will impress his friends.
GREAT OBSERVATION!!! THANK YOU. So immature of him! So shallow of the guy...
@@maristella287 He wasn't the only shallow one? Rhonda rejected him because she was "worth more and could do better"
Thanks for cutting to the chase. I was going insane trying to figure this out.
@@Tele999zzz true. And ironically became the least desirable of the trio
Obvious cluster B pathology.
I laughed harder than It have in awhile with your official date comments 😂 great subject matter as usual. Wonderful channel
I JUST LOVED THIS video and like the official date part as it made me laugh too!
There's a sucker born every minute now that I'm broke can you just give me some free money I'll go out with you I would have told her you should ask the guy that woke up with his thing in your mouth it wasn't me stop that grinning and drop that linen she would have at least had more respect for him
He had obvious cluster B pathology.
Official date means that you actually have a chance at...a future together, sex, care for each other, etc.
An unofficial date means you’re just hanging out with each other like friends, only in this case, Rhonda has this guy figured out and was just using him all along. The fact that he could not see that is amazing.
I think your analysis is spot on. If you look around and pay attention there are a lot of intradynamics like this going on around you all the time.
I'm only a master's level clinician, but I see a lot of parallels between the pathology in this case study, with De Clerambault Syndrome. John appears to be obsessed, and it must have been pretty bad to still be in such bad shape after 20 years. I also thought about the possibility of Delusional Disorder, erotomanic type just because he did appear delusional, and his level of obsession was significant to say the least. I'd love to touch on John's attachment issues! There seems to be a social component to this type of obsession. Very interesting case!
Oh, now I see, you've had the same thoughts on this case.
"John" struck me as immature. That kind of idealizing a love interest seems like the kind of thing an adolescent would do to protect his fragile self-esteem.
Antony Drossos oh god. I remember adolescence and unrequited “love” as a particularly unpleasant phase of my life
@@india239 That's the thing; this guy is nearing retirement age & is still dealing with that
whould you like to explain that further
Very well said. And he stayed at that same level or thinking about this girl, even as he chronologically aged. Then he developed delusions to fit his need to be the hero no matter what. In addition, he was fixated on her looks. He valued her looks for a few different reasons, and did not even apply good judgement about her becoming a criminal!!!
You're a good therapist, Dr Grande. You can tell this story of vapid, superficial and manipulative people with gentleness. Salute, good sir. Thank you! 👍🌹
Exactly!!!!!
Holy shit never has each person in a friend-group so thoroughly and rightfully deserved one another.
no kidding, I can't feel sorry for any of them
Slightly random thought, but getting stuck on this woman and this rejection made me think of the Golden State Killer and his obsession with his ex-fiancee Bonnie. I'm not sure if we'll ever know exactly what happened, but it it made me think of someone with a clear personality disorder who got "stuck in a moment in time" as you mention, Dr. Grande. Like many, I've been following this and find this case fascinating for so many reasons. I hope that you'll be able to talk about it in an upcoming video.
Dr. Grande , I love your topics and how you explain everything in very understandable way. Thank you
Please keep it up!
I am a professional counselor and I surely don't know all this information that Dr Grande has provided here. I am learning a lot from this series. It is more informative than all my years working as a counselor. Thank you.
Are these actually grown up people? What immature, disfunctuonal people this cast of characters are! Sounds like a mini series of disturbingly sad proportions!
😦 WOW!!!! Just WOW!!! 🙄
The psychology of a person can be
more alarming than one can possibly imagine!
Birds of a feather huh?🐦
Sally and Rhonda seem equally as disfunctional as John in this sad tale of human foibles.
I'm not judging...just an observation.
Interesting story. 🤓
Yes very immature. If people only have a high school education, they don't endure as many self transforming hurdles as others who go on in school do, so they tend to remain small minded, unless they do things to grow their minds... I hope that I have not insulted anyone... I did not intend to. I am explaining how the guy in the vignette was holding on to Rhonda.
@@maidenmarian1 this can sometimes be true, I would be inclined to agree observing some people I know, although the case has been made at times that going on to further schooling keeps people in a kind of false adolescence longer. Social experience, self discipline, and personal accountability are essential no matter what the environment.
@@watcherwlc53 GREAT GREAT POINTS!!
@@maidenmarian1 not really, there are so many paths he could have taken other than continuing education to improve his mentality. School has nothing to do with mind, and university is actually one of the easiest paths to choose. It's not much of a "hurdle". There are plenty of immature people who have PhDs, and vice versa.
Agreed, this is about emotional development, not academic.
As juvenile as this relationship presents, it is the reality of many clients' lives. It is as if something happens...and they are stuck in some kind of stage during which all things are possible..."let me remain in my fantasy". The drama immediately triggered thoughts of substance use..."let's focus on anything but how I feel...It's just too painful" Sounds like a whole lot of denial and external focus: "to focus on me is a train wreck." It seems sad.
But most clients need to keep trying. If they do, they may finally achieve joy. I can say that if they are determined, it can pay off.
Literally me
Dr.Grande your killing me...figuratively not literally....No worries..thanks for informative and well balanced videos.
I’m not certain one has to have a personality disorder to possess romantic delusions. I’ve known two women who had romantic delusions and they were both mentally ill and I mean seriously mentally ill. Not just a personality disorder. I think that romance is an irrational concept and even normal people can lack realism in this area of their life. Wonderful story and analysis, Dr. Grande and thank you.
There are men with romantic delusions. Limerance is infatuation and obsession.
"Official date" = possibility for sex if all goes well. Non-official: Intimacy is out of the question no matter where the guy takes you, how much he spends, brings you flowers, etc. Not gonna happen.
Wouldn't say so. Altough I would say that if a man knows he wants sex before the date then he has smaller chance of getting it.
Nailed it.
EEEWWW. Fire Horse, you are probably younger than I am and most likely male so this is how that would be understood in the male mind. (Not that there is anything wrong with that, I guess...) To me an "Official date" would have the Meaning that the possibility for a deeper relationship might exist in the future. An official date might be seen as future oriented. But in some person's minds it could mean sex. BUT Sex is not a lasting event nor is it something that ensures any future.
@@maidenmarian1 Surprise! I'm a woman, age 53! An American who has lived nearly 20 years in Paris so have dated men of all nationalities. Yes I agree under the surface we are all really searching for THE ONE but in the immediacy of the date, it starts with sexual desire. Romance = Desire, attraction, candlelight bubble baths and all the rest. This woman clarified "non official" date so as to not get the guy's hopes up. She would have felt guilty if he spent hundreds on a fancy dinner, flowers, whatever and she knew she was going to reject him.
@UCUZn8XigsbXlRdpgKpOXc7A Yes it does tell the woman something. It IS a badly ruined red flag if he does not pay for you. I just recently realized from another site all of the money we women spend to look good. You are correct. Boy I would LOVE TO LEARN your stories if living in Paris for 20 years.
Had a choice of making a Popeye' s chicken sandwich or Dr. Grande. I chose the latter.
And the winner for best comment is...
Elizabeth Williamson 🏆 😆
Good choice!
you should have both... the sandwich to eat while watching🥪🥙🍗
Watcher WLC 😆
So how did he taste?
11:20
"Unoffical date" = She's only interested in free food and/or paid for activities.
"Offical date" = She might actually like you.
👌
Sad....
@@maristella287
...but true.
This was fascinating to listen to with impeccable story formatting; providing contextual background, building up the archetypes, then laying out the assessments.
While I love the entirety of your channel and resources, I wish you'd begin a playlist just for case studies like this. #bravo #encore
I'm already on the edge of my seat, and I'm just waiting for the video to load...
I just want to say that Dr. Grande has the best video intro of anyone on YT. Straight to the point. And about this case - when does the novelization come out?
(I know this is an old comment but) you spoke of novelization and then my mind suddenly jumped to Gone with the Wind, haha.
This is one of my favorite channels also!! I am glad I finally got to see this one that I missed last week. This was great! I like how it teases out the various Cluster B disorders. I LOVED THIS!
Great job! My son and I were glued to the screen!
“Official dates” are when both parties want to be with the other & romance is the specific intent of both parties. “Unofficial dates”/“hanging out” is when 1 person has clear romantic intent & the 2nd person agrees to spend time with the 1st person to see what kind of relationship they want with this person. Usually you end up “just friends” but occasionally this CAN lead to being “friends with benefits”, SOMETIMES it can end up as a “real relationship”... I hope that clears it up for you
This was an excellent watch - it's great as well that we're exploring beyond the limitations of stringent disorders and glimpsing into real lives
Wow. I'm speechless. Too much drama for me to process. LHM 😲
Thankyou for sharing your video, it’s been inspiring me to create my own content about psychology
During all story I took much more interest in *RHONDA* than in John, or Sally. First thought she was *narcisisstic, but rather later thought of SOCIOPATH.*
Like it looked, she was at first using him for her own pettieness. Like her wanted adoration, but not carring... But during hearing this story, my guess, she 'dated' him to see how USEFUL could he be.
Maybe Sally told her of her growing intetest and she wanted to controll Sallys potential happieness through John? It will sounds psychopathic, through and I rather don't see Rhonda as composed, highly funcionall...but jealous and self-entitled she probably was.
Through not all psychopaths have to be 'high funcional' ... Also, not know much about Rhonda background, or John ones. As on both sides it could and probably was some type of COMPENSATION, especially in sociopath case, nurturing have high meaning...
However, as Rhonda seems to used John AND most likely 'put spell' on him for her own reasons(maybe it was fun to her), John fall into obsession, which in some HEALTH cases could get much worse - I know I am looking through my own prism, but what his history is saying about him having, for example, epileptic(or autistic, or Asperger MILD as he seems socially active) tendencies? Not necessarly hard case, but epilepsy always lead to added impulses into brain and frontal or temporal added impulses can lead to growing obsessiveness, agressiveness, being impatient... So developing some Cluster B 'tendencies' . 😁
I had buddy that was in depression, that kept obsessing over long married puppy crush, but she gave him 'mixed signals' and he kept hoping. If Rhonda shown some DEPENDENCY on John and he had same White Horse Knight syndrome as my buddy - needing to FEEL needed, with Rhonda giving him glimpses of hope, he kept it alive...
And Sally, through her own growing crush, maybe inferiority syndrome Rhondas 'being star' developed in her, became CO-ADDICTED in this relationship.
She KNEW John prefered Rhonda. She felt inferior to her. So by 'winning him over' she wanted to defeat her, maybe?
It is possible, Rhondas sociopathic personality lead into such un-ecsapeable Love Triangle, where one part made two others depended on her so much, her ghost is among them, even if her body is not... 🤔
But this is just a guess I am making without details... 🤔
*Had great time analysing Your analys as I love such cases!* 😁
Yes! And her choice of partners. Why would she select partners who have drug and law problems? It would be fascinating to identify what socio-psychological mechanisms lead to development of these "dead end" strategies in such seemingly valued individuals, now that it seems like it's more and more common. Is it connected to grandiose narcissism and feeling of entitlement, exploitation or abuse in youth or misleading allure of alternative lifestyles and possiblities presented in media?
@@henrykkaufman1488 I think what is guilt is what I call 'celebritisation' of current times. As in World Wide Web people are spreeding false picture of present and correcting it how only possible on global scale. So little kids see perfect world and try to be as perfect, that leads only to bigger isolation if they feel they are not able to... Not telling of all mental and neurological problems it leads to... And so we fall into duality of existing in two worlds, of which one we can't be 'good enough' for as others see us through prism of lances they put during operating in VR. So we only swim deeper into VR, which is false. In effect our real life is often unsatisfying and if it will go on, more and more people will drop even trying, as VR is growing more and more what we imagine 'perfect real' could be.
So future generations are risking dropping imperfectness of reality for deciving charm of efortless virtuality. Like Japan that had about 20%+ of 40 years old virgins... 🤔
We still can focuse on smaller picture, but as we were nurtured into observing WORLD instead of SURROUNDINGS, it is harder and harder to focuse over SMALL, so imperfect picture... 🤔
And NO ONE want to be NOBODY in world, they THINK everyone is SOMEONE ...
Thanks Dr Grande ! I always look forward for your next video! It's so interesting! 🙂
Dr. Grande, I would like to know, why persons with strong narcissism have a capability to show extreme kindness and a (childlike) amount of innocence (far above average), when they are feeling happy and satisfied. Could you do a video like "Narcissist and proud of it/ok with it" or "The loveable aspects of high trait narcissism" No jokes, I'm serious as always. Have a nice day. 🐰
I would also like to know this
As a diagnosed borderline who is mislabeled by fam as npd i would also like to know. And I make friends with npd trait personalities rather easily.
They're satisfied bc they're getting their supply, so they spew out love bombs. They're gross.
They are ensnaring by making themselves look lovable like a baby. It is a trap of course preying on nurturing nature of women. Some are good at it, they have been practicing lovable faces/behaviors for their entire lives. Some even look like infants. Big tall infants.
they have impulse control issues. they will only stop when sb. from the outside stops them because they can't stop on their own. deep inside they know that what they are doing is wrong even though they are too ashamed to admit it and talk themselves into believing that after all it's not so bad when they do sth. good as a repair.
I don’t know if it’s because it makes me feel better about myself or cos I feel like I’m educating myself but I LOVE content like this, discussing all the nuances of how fucked up people and their relationships are.
Your videos are great in general but please do more of this style
Same
You seem to be a very objective doctor. Salute to you! I'm sure your clients and fellow clinicians appreciate you!💪🏽💪🏽
Yes! Doctor Grande is the BEST-!!
🙂 What a great start to the day. 🇬🇧 a presentation by dr Grande while I get ready for the day.
That's our European privilege. I often do this , too.
Game playing. Have to remember all of this information about Ronda is reported by John. At the very beginning of the story he stole his grandmothers money to buy better clothing and get a different car. To look different. Appear better/different without doing the hard work to get achieve the results.
He reports all of his old high school classmates have attractive partners.
Yes. Thanks for that reminder. He is very sneaky.
Water attracts its own level.
Your very intriguing , the knowledge 🕊
Good video. Not often you chuckle! Thank you Dr.Grande for the educational videos.
Family background, work ethics and self image are always good standpoints for determining peronality disorders.
I love these case studies, UC psychology in real life thank you you are totally awesome 😘
That sounds interesting the getting stuck part, I know that when people are indoctrinated into cults that has to be a factor, they are essentially stuck at that mental age. Just an observation
This is a great case study! To me, covert narcissism is the core of all cluster B and if there was a consstruct of pathological covert narcissism, this one would be a clear candidate for it!
No devaluation, only idealization? That's more of a histrionic thing than borderline. He thinks he can fix her? well that's clearly a type of codependency that often comes with covert narcissism... think about it, no one could fix her but I can, it's where codependency and narcissism somewhat meet. I don't see borderline, anti-social, grandiose narcissism and histrionic pathology, but it screams pathological people fixer and covert narc. Modern psychoanalysis calls it the borderline representation, which is the other side of the grandiose continuum but doesn't necessarily mean BPD criteria will be met (as seen here). I feel it's simply where HPD/BPD/pathological covert narcissim/pathological codependency/secondary psychopathy meet and that is opposed by the grandiose, non neurotic representation of narcissism and psychopathy.
Doctor Grande: what are the causes of being emotionally stunted? What can an emotionally stunted adult do about their immaturity, if not insecurity? Is autism comorbid with having impaired maturity?
dasein I few up in a housiwith domestic violence. I don’t think I was emotionally stunted per se but had reall issues in relationships. Unsurprisingly I ended up in violent relationships.
Many years later and lots of therapy I am in a wonderful relationship. I’m still receiving counseling fir many reasons, we’re currently working on me recognising and accepting my emotions. I’m a great mother and am very proud of the fact that despite all my problems I was able to bring my son up alone, in love and safety.
I don’t know if that is in any way pertinent to your question
cluster A?
Trauma can cause arrested development as can substance abuse. SA can also result from trauma.
Go on to College and face many more challenges.
@Nikki Pettway This is a good answer.
His fate was to be with Sally,
A really uplifting way to see marriage 😂
Seems John wanted what he could not get and the trauma of rejection bonded him to Rhonda. She uses poor John knowing he loves her and he settles for poor Sally who will never be enough. This can happen to a lot of people who cant accept that not everyone will love the way you want to be loved.He could have solved his problem if he went on to find a more attractive partner instead of marrying Sally.His fear of being alone means he will always settle instead of learning to love himself. It reminds me of the song 'if you cant be with the one you love, then love the one your with'.Great story.
Wow, both John and Rhonda are a piece of work.
Pls clarify Dr Grande: people with cluster B personality disorders become fixated on a turning point in history or relatively common in ALL people...
It is relatively common with all people -
@@DrGrande That is what I thought.
Don’t know if it was mentioned down below but one thing that struck me was how John would “coincidentally” run into Rhonda at the mall or various places around town. Can you say stalker?? How about obsession with Rhonda, the one that got away? There’s also the long duration of his enmeshment with Rhonda. He perceived her as the ideal love that would always be esteemed as better than anyone else *because* of her rejection of him! She devalued him, so he valued her more for that. Narcs like to pursue what they can’t or shouldn’t have. Based on what I heard of the details in this case study, he is definitely a Narc!
I really like these videos much better than the famous serial killers and analyzing characters in movies. In other words I like real world/regular joes.
I love your analysis of case studies, this one is particularly interesting!
Thank you again Dr. Grande:)
They do not take rejection well.😅. Thanks Doc👍
Nobody said *no and really meant it.
John got played by the woman he objectified.
@@Professional_444 he didn't pick up on the hints. "Unofficial date"
But.. what about Love? Listening to this one made my face invent a brand new expression.
This shows that diagnosing someone from a far is not a good idea. Or yourself for that matter.
I think John had a lack of selfrespect and self love and he obsesses over a persons beauty and exaggerates what he is entitled to. He also settles for someone he does not love. A sign of disrespect towards himself.
He is in denial and avoided hurt by ignoring facts and changing it to fake info to make himself the hero.
Have the patience wait for what you deserve. And the self respect to say no to someone who is not right for you.
It is better to be alone loving yourself.
Than with someone who dont love you or someone you do not love.
Its funny how wanting an in your eyes attractive partner is really just wanting someone who is different from yourself the cause if this being selfhatred.
By loving yourself and your lesser traits you Also become more open to loving someone else for who they are.
Appreciate yourself and others for what they are.
Give yourself the care you give others.
Andreas Leon Landgren A resounding YES. It's better to be alone and love yourself than to be with someone who doesn't love you or you don't love. I think the person who feels they've settle will eventually be filled with resentment and bitterness.
I thought Rhonda saying she’d go somewhere with John, but that it was not an official date, is a good way for her to have responded. It makes it pretty clear where she stands, unless a guy is really thick-headed. She was not attracted to him on initial impression, but was willing to see if there was something to him that might change her opinion. Fair enough (of course).
Seems like they need a new diagnosis here: a Cluster (B) F#$*!
As a Southerner I nominate: a Cluster (B) Y'all Need Jesus 😂
Always nice to see you give the case patient your foremost concern Dr Grande
Sorry I replied late, out of hope John would not present me a bubbly love heart in the comment section. (😍Rhonda and Sally but mostly Rhonda)
How do you diagnose an unspecified personality disorder? Are there a certain number of criteria that must be met? Is there a minimum number of personality disorders that that criteria must be drawn from?
Thanks For The Vid. Doc 👍 I believe The Unofficial date is a term we would call Going Dutch meaning Each pay ones own bill so to speak.✨
I wonder if John was co-dependent and fixated on fixing his next partner up when one relationship was dying out?
Dr. Todd Grande. Can you share with us how to improve as a socially awkward guy or a incel.
Get a makeover, cut hair trim everything,exercise try joining groups of interest and practice socializing... you can improve...
Ok. What is the treatment that would help these people, and what is the goal of the treatment?
Hello? I'd like to hear more than what's wrong with them. What is useful treatment and what do you hope to achieve, please.
Do more of these, great for perspective on all these disorders, to put them in context
I LOVE THESE CASE STUDIES DOCTOR!
Love these case studies. You should do MOAR!!!
Sounded like a reeeeeaaaaalllly long love bombing (and hoovering? if the unofficial date followed by her finding someone else or prison counts as an unofficial break off) with a very high value target with Sally as back up supply. Rhonda was high value because of his friends comments. Like some kind of a status symbol. Devaluing didn't happen because he didn't succeed in getting her for long enough by the time the case study was written :p A rejected narcissist will hoover. If rejection happens before devaluing... She may probably seem irresistible - still idealized, has shown some potential for interest...
Though while I can imagine a narcissist's child mind giving all the money he had to the object of his infatuation, I can't imagine the narcissist desiring her after being assaulted. Maybe Sam Vaknin has something going with his descriptions of narcissistic mortification with the narcissist idealizing the person who mortified him to maintain a facade of control ("I caused her to misbehave" rather than "she humiliated me") as a coping mechanism.
Whatever it was, it sounded very NPD/Cluster B and if there weren't enough traits for diagnosis, maybe the DSM6 needs to chalk it up to John Personality Disorder. lol
Wow that's a sad case! I've never been married but I can't imagine being married 2 some1 who wanted 2 b with some1 else. I think I'd b way 2 proud 2 stay married 2 them!
Ikr! OMG I finally see why people don't like "let's just be friends" 😅
I've rejected and have been rejected, it happens. But either way I've been open to platonic friendship (within respectful reason).
I do see how that could complicate things, even if on a smaller scale than this case study.
I don't think I'll be saying "can we still be friends" again 😉
yea me 2, i mean 2 b honest, b 4 i was married, i wanted 2 b with some1 who was down 4 me 4 ever, but now 1 ended up with th1s. :8
@Nikki Pettway I can understand that.
I guess for me, if I'm rejected but they still want to kayak, hike or whatever, it may sting for a bit but I have enough self love and respect for others to honor their decision and still enjoy their company :)
If I reject someone, I can't expect them to process it like I do. I find that disappointing because even healthy friendships are hard to come by and a lot of great people lose touch. It really seems like our society could use some quality authentic connections... at from my POV in the US.
I am happily single. I could never stand being second violin. NO WAY!! Get away from me if you are into someone else...
@@o_o5002 OH I have so much to say about this. Some years back in my 50's this guy who was 60, came up with "I only want to be friends for now, You're a good person, I still want to go to the group weekly, but I only want to be friends for now." There was more but I will leave it there. It took me ten years to quit the group. This guy denied allowing me to get to know him outside of this group and at all. He never acted like any sort of friend except for a comment now and then. It was stupid. I was pissed off during our conversation and I did not hide it. He would not tell me why AND I WAS IRATE, WANTING AN ANSWER.
I have rejected and been rejected too. It is an ugly business. I am sick of all of that. I also had a hope for a platonic friendship with this guy, but no way from this one that I am referring to. HE would rather stare at women than KNOW THEM.
I love the balance of colloquial terms . I am learning so much !
Thank you for this ❤ Great case study! Could it be psychopathy? She is a goal. And he used her unattractive friend as a pawn to get close to the attractive one, which denotes: superficiality, goal-oriented behaviour and inebriated by the chase, lack of empathy, and no concern of how his behaviour could affect Sally, belief that others have more than what they deserve, his feelings don't get hurt from rejection, focuses on the bright side, and takes money!! Kevin Dutton for instance said he would not steal money from his grandma, and the guy here took it only after she passed away, which doesn't count. He was convicted, he PROVOKED the other guy, and got away with "menacing and disturbing the peace". He thought of himself as a R's hero... 😅😂❤
Yet another great video. Thanks, Dr. Grande
I grew up around country people and people going deaf. Sometimes, I talk loud due to that but docs who over analyze people will make negative assumptions about it. years ago talking loud around country people wasn't a big deal and city people who were bothered were viewed as being immature and easily offended. all rights reserved
That was very interesting!
I can't believe how long his obsession for Rhonda remained. And then to learn of her very questionable character.... I guess in some cases, love (if that's what you'd call it?) really is blind.
Great episode Dr. Grande! Thank you!
Great case analysis. I know that you have an extremely well developed clinical judgement, It seems to me a bit though that here you see all trees, but not the wood...? Or am I the one who is totally misguided here? This can be true, of course.
So, why have you ruled out Cluster A, when you admit that there is delusional thinking going on there? Poor bounderies? A bit too trusty? Always optimistic inspite of contrary evidence? A lot of idealisation but no devaluation? Obsessed with one person only? (I think his empathy is also VERY bad). The guy suffers from de Clérambault resp. erotomania, I think. Maybe one sign for a cluster A disorder. Worth for further exploring maybe.
I agree on what one commenter says: he is an immature person. He behaves rather like it is typical for a a teen or twen. He's acting out everything he feels. A developmental thing.
I love that you don't like this "official date" wording, this is cute for a counseling professor* Imo the woman says very clearly, I don't see a candidate for a relationsship in you, you're not my man, just a friend (with or without sex), nothing serious. Usually a clear no go sign.
Also love what you say in 19:22, since this is exactly what I criticise in clinical thinking. I guess, it happens quite often, that persons fit the criteria only subclinically but at the same time for very many disorders? This is dissatisfying for me personally.
Thank you so much for doing these case studies, though you are not directly rewarded for it. Am very grateful.🙏
Have a great day. ❤
*not derogatorily said, I really mean cute 🐰
@@LuciaInman Thank you so much, Lucia. 🙂
@@nyyotam4057 Thank you for your comment, in which you go even further in your questioning as I did.😊 I think I remember two types of the de clérambault syndrome, one as a symptom of the schizophrenic illness itself or its related personality types (schizotypal etc.)and one as a single delusion without any further psychotic reactions, but often lifelong lasting as a delusional disorder. I think Sally was with him in psychotherapy, so this person exists, even when it might be true that he misinterpreted her actions also, just like Rhondas. What makes me so sceptical of him being in cluster B is actually, that I think Rhonda herself is such a type of person - and he totally misses what she is trying to tell him. Would that be realistic if both are in the same cluster? Isn't there some basic psychological understanding between two people belonging to the same personality cluster that makes the forming of a delusion rather unlikely?
@@nyyotam4057 I don't see Sally as an angel. She is finacially dependent on him, ("help me with the bills") and sometimes middleaged women become to lazy to look for a new guy, because the dating is too time consuming and strenuous. I have also noticed that case studies are often a bit unrealistic, due to the fact, that they are written by therapists - and some of them aren't very realistic persons either. Thus these stories sometimes have a fairytale like style. P.S I'm 46, too. 😊
A very great and informative video, once again. Thank you for your outstanding work!
Concerning this special case, I understand that all of the three main characters had their problems...but all I could think on various occasions was: Poor "Sally"!
My favorite channel and Doctor...exceptional.
They reject themselves. They need to believe others don’t reject them. Their survival depends on it
Ego survival only. Those who are sensitive to rejection would do well to sacrifice their reputation for emboldened shamelessness.
It's low self esteem, probably generously given to them by their parents, who probably also had low self esteem. It's also personality and behavioral expressions of the low self esteem. What is the goal of the undescribed therapy?
@An Gry I like your first notion very much. 😊 Yeah, often psychology and psychotherapy is actually only about functioning, life satisfaction doesn't really matter. Your latter remark: yes, this might be true also, in case the counselor is a christian for example. Not true for all of them. Counselors have imo sometimes quite different ideological backgrounds on which they base their therapeutic technique on. Thank you for your comment.
@An Gry yeah I am starting to see that many marriages are not happy so there is just nothing to be envious about. So many people get divorced.
@@grayisgood It was an adjustment disorder. The Wife wanted him to see a therapist for the marriage.
Hi Dr. Grande.. Thanks for the interesting video. Have a good sleep 😃🇳🇱
i would like to see a picture of rhonda and Sally
Dc how pretty Rhonda is. She’s not worth any of that noise. Good video👍🏼
I know this comment isn't about this video but I would like you diagnosis of the character of Sarah Connor.
Love these case studies and your opinion Dr. Grande
I know this is Cluster B related, but the whole situation with all of them sounds more like Cluster F...
I wonder if John just legitimately loved Rhonda? Is that even a remote possibility? It seems that he could see nothing negative in Rhonda despite the fact that she had a drug habit, used him for money, etc. Is it possible that he had her on a pedestal that just allowed him to see no fault in her? As for Sally, she was just crying out for some kind of attention from John and it appears that he had no real feelings for her at all. Very sad story.
my wife's cheating on me but the girl I like (he once saved her life, apparently) lets me talk to her out of pity, life is great
Now I have to go rewatch Once Upon A Time In Hollywood.
Fabulous.
Love your channel
It seems as if the rejection in Hispanic 20s was so traumatic that it totally influenced his life from that point on. How terribly sad
Love these case studies
He sounds like a fairly normal guy to me, aside from being obsessed with the same person for such an extended period of time. Based on what you've described, I'd be more interested in looking into Cluster C on this one; specifically OCPD if there is other supporting evidence. Some characteristics of OCPD can look like NPD on the surface, right? Is it possible that what you are calling delusions or cognitive distortions could possibly be optimistic and hopeful, yet obsessive speculations on reasons why he has not yet succeeded in winning Rhonda's affections?
i think the only reason that john doesn't have any extreme or violent acts in his history is because he married sally. he doesn't care about his wife or her behavior. if he had married rhonda, his obsession with her would have lead to intense reactive behavior and likely violence, because the woman he described would not have been faithful or frugal.
Sometimes women want to state that date is "unofficial" because they are worried about contrast between their uncertanity and guy's eagerness. I think because date is a mildly stressful activity this reduction of importance of date context makes them feel safe and less awkward.
Are you sure you arent reframing this so it suits your...belief about someone? I am Just kidding. I Agree women want to feel safe.
There also is a factor of maintaining the reputation and on top of that, anyone's motivation is a bit diffirent but I think most of the times safety and comfort are the main factors.
Notice: safety and comfort are things that, in a heterosexual relation, man is (again, generally) responsible for. So these types of situations are important and can bring loss or gain, depending on approach.
This, for sure. She could have just been using him like so many people are commenting, but when I was younger I tried to do what I think could be similar (not necessarily calling it “unofficial”, but... trying to temper the guy and lower expectations). I wasn’t looking for free food - I genuinely wanted to get to know the guys. It doesn’t really work and I’d probably just say no to someone like this now. IMO, unmoderated eagerness is a red flag and sign of boundary problems.
Honesty needs not to be cruel. I can't imagine how 'Ronda' would feel it necessary to break off with those words, unless something not shared by John made her angry.
I feel like I’m hearing about a season of reality tv
Yaaay case study!! More of these please!
Perhaps you would consider going on an “unofficial” date with me, Dr. Grande. ☺️
Astheworldturns....the criminality irks me. Yes, a fixation on the rejection. One event. Wow
It's low class to tell someone you can "do better than them". Period. It is unnecessary, tactless and cruel.
Rhonda was a bitch...
Very informative video, thank you. What I want to know is can witnessing verbal and emotional abuse between parents and then splitting (not divorced but living separately) at a young age cause ASPD? I ask this because this has happened to me and I have almost all the characteristics of factor 2 psychopathy. I'd be very grateful if you could answer this :) I'm going to copy and paste this question in the comments section of other videos of yours I've watched in order to hopefully get an answer.
Excluding Sally from the equation, this story reminds me a lot of the movie, Casino, starring Robert De Niro and directed by Martin Scorsese. The main character played by De Niro is fixated on an attractive girl Who use relationships as transactional and is fixated on money and drugs. He marries her anyways and gets f’d over by her. His character is unbelievably forgiving and enabling of her bad behavior. The moral of the story is, the things men will do to have a pretty girl on their arm.
To boost their ego and self esteem. Men don't love men only care about ego.
It's extremely cute to watch how eagerly some of Dr. G.'s subscribers try to help him out with this "official dating" issue. .. 🐰😊
Dr. Grande, there are three things in life one will never know: 1) what's in the sausage, 2) how the court will decide and 3) how people belonging to the opposite sex actually think.
But anyway, I wish everyone a happy day. 🎉