Rank 1 allowed in novice servers?! (Mobius discussion)
Вставка
- Опубліковано 4 лип 2022
- Coaching: mfy.gg/@stouty
/ st0uty (support the channel for free by dropping a prime sub)
/ discord (click "join" on my UA-cam channel to become a Stoutlaw for just £2 - this grants you speaking permissions and you'll support my channel)
/ chivstouty
/ stouty
Playing around in the noob servers as the rank 1 Mordhau player (nice one Triternion) whilst discussing my thoughts on the new upcoming first person melee game Mobius. - Ігри
this was a good Morbius discussion. My favourite part of the film was when Morbius used his bat ability to finish off Milo (the villain of the motion picture).
Mobius, contingent, Chiv 2 and Mordhau. Factions dueling it out over who can stretch the fanbase even thinner. Who will win?!
ad mortem
Isnt ad mortem something aswell?
Competition doesn’t stretch the market, it grows it.
cinis cause if it flops the art was cool to look at
@@SameDayTwice if given equally good products yes, but when they are all dogshit it's a different story
the games going to be the quake champions of the melee genre
f2p brings in people new to the genre > get stomped repeatedly > realizes the amount of skill needed to be good most leave some stay > player base dwindles forcing the noobs into matchs with the veterans > game only has the most devote of players left preventing new players from having fun > videos on youtube explaining why no one is playing because no one is playing
I think there's a lot that will go into making Mobius more likely to stick than is currently being discussed. I think a huge factor will be the fact that it will be free to play game, F2P games are notorious for having near-undying player bases as well as more frequent content updates that keep things fresh and keep people returning or giving it a try purely because of zero buy-in.
This genre has yet to have a game that has a fully functioning, highly polished combat system in my opinion, a lot of these games suffer either from very janky/unpolished animations, buggy and inconsistent combat, and mechanics that are like you said in the video, dead ends. There has yet to be a game that has all of the fat trimmed, as well as new mechanics that truly compliment the gameplay and let melee truly flourish as a competitive combat system.
If we can achieve a combat system that is essentially the counter-strike: source of melee games, where its a classic, go-to example/inspiration of a combat system done correctly with very minimal flaws, then I think that is truly the best shot melee has regarding breaking into a more mainstream appeal.
Finally, with a juiced-up SDK being available on launch, imagine the sheer amount of awesome user-created content that would be born when they have an incredibly robust and fun combat system to utilize when creating their mods. I think that alone could carry the game and allow it to stick, but I think we have the competitive side covered too.
A lot of what I've just said is essentially Ronguat's philosophy/genius regarding the project summarized, so don't attribute this credit to me but to him, I thought I'd give a small rundown here for people to get a better understanding of what we're trying to do and why we think it will work. Thanks for the videos covering the project Stoutlord and we appreciate the kind words, "brave and commendable" hits hard 💯
I think the big discussion is how the melee slasher genre is supposed to work. FPS games kind of had a working system from the start that was fundamentally simple but could be expanded upon. The core visions of melee slashers doesn't seem quite there. You can see from the 2 spiritually successors to chiv 1, mordhau and chiv 2, that the combat fundamentally changed, no one's perfectly sure what the right "core formula" is for the melee slasher genre. Mordhau tried to solve the jank from chiv 1, and tried to solve the feint meta through chambers, but couldn't create an identity in either its comp nor casual scene. Chiv 2 scrapped a lot of fundementals from chiv 2, they created a combat that's accessable, but has overly strong defense to where they aren't really any reading, even at high level play. These guys seem to think chiv 1 had it mostly right, it just needs to be polished and formatted into a FTP competitive style of game.
I'd like the raise the point that as much as a F2P is amazing, it invites an insane amount of cheaters, in a competitive focused game, this could be a very big problem very fast.
I hope they have a pretty high priority on a solid anti-cheat and report system, even Valve struggled to fight against cheaters with CSGO.
Omg for like 5 minutes I thought everyone in the comments was memeing about and doing a morbius discussion
based
That was my fear with Mobius when they described their combat system. It seems like it's a solid system, tried and true but with nothing innovative. It look like a genuine atempt to satisfy the comp scene but with no intention on appealing to a broader audiance. It is nice for Vets and alike but I fear it will not catch with many people...
That's what I'm hoping for, every attempt to make the melee genre more casual seems to revolve around making it less interesting and unique. These games have the highest skill gaps/ceilings I've ever seen but what kept me coming back was the feeling of training and getting better.
@@twistedfox9445 But you'll run into the problem of always fighting the same people years after years with no variation. I've heard it was one of the things that killed the comp scene in Chiv 1 since it was such a small clique. I'm not saying that you are wrong but bringing new blood into a community is important. That's why I train absolute newbies in duel servers so they don't get discouraged and leave with a sour taste. Admittedly, you still want an open door so newbies can still try to get in, even if it is a competitive-only game. Mordhau tried this but quickly left the comp scene dry.
The only problem i have with it is that the name mobius sounds really stupid lol
It's morbin time.
If Morbius had never come out, it might have worked, but now... no
I still really like the idea of weapon damage being influenced by weapon speed/time, a late or early swing would have reduced damage compared to a full speed in the middle of the animation. So you can still drag or spam attacks and chip opponent away but, it'd be more effective to find the perfect opportunity for a max damage swing.
But maybe that's just me, idk.
As you said, dragging would still be viable and all hits would have a semi-rng damage value
This idea has been suggested and shot down over and over and over again. A damage multiplier to drags and accels would just make fights take forever. If drags/accels are in the game then they are really important to actually landing hits in mid-high level play, that or they aren't like maybe chiv 2, but then you are just spelling their death, and would make combat less consistent as sometimes you accidentally do late/early swings, so damage would be inconsistent.
Going to the ladder example. If they are important to the combat, it just extends everything to take longer to die. Mid-high level players would still drag, it just would now take 6 hits instead of 3 or whatever damage change, that or you encourage everyone to play with fast weapons and spam feints and morphs since that doesn't involve dragging, which is even less healthy than a drag accel meta.
@@Stouty Agreed, I didn't add into my comment, but I personally think if damage is done that way, miss should definitely be more punishable and the damage/time scaling would not be %. As in, damage would be seperated within sections of time, maybe in 3 or 5 ? Late and early at lowest damage , midswing max damage (and before and after mid-ish damage for 5, depending on how balanced it would be )
Thinking about it now, maybe that's a bit too complicated, but in my mind it makes enough sense because it's somewhat close to reality, if you were to hit as you start to move or at the end or a swing, you'd loose power in your strike.
@@danthezulu7707 I guess if this was simply added as is without any changes to the rest of Chiv or Mordhau I'd definitely see an issue, but i obviously don't think neither game has perfect combat or that my solution would somehow save them. I just like that base idea, the concept of timing/spacing your hits for maximum damage, fighting games do have some moves like that ( sour spot / sweet spot in Smash ); while they aren't as popular I don't think it's too out there to look at some of their ideas.
If the move is clear enough or the timings are seperate enough I think anyone can intuitively learn it. CoD players learn spawn timings and grenade cook times ( even semtex who don't have any indicator ) through playing, and while that's not exactly as accurate or demanding as swing after swing of a sword, I don't think it's out of the realm of possibilities. BUt then again, I'm not a game dev or a high level player, I don't know what's right, just throwing ideas out there.
@@Luckydeath973 Such a system already exists in the first iteration: windup, release, end of release. Adding further slices doesn't really fix anything but does make everything more complex
Always strikes me as weird that you can literally be one of the best players in the world, but nobody wants to take your stance on drags seriously. At this point I just think it's comp players not wanting to admit they suck because they practiced them so much.
Devs listening solely to competetive players is what kills games
@@chiefgroundhogsausage1193 you obviously don’t know wtf you talking about lol. Devs are not listening to comp players and that why comp has their own combat mod
@@chiefgroundhogsausage1193 no lol, they know better than casuals
Why does stoutys opinion matter more than other top competitive players to you? The same logic can be applied "it's weird how stouty won't listen to all the other top players who think drags are a good thing"
I have practiced drags alot because thats what makes the games unique and fun to me. Whilst they don't look pretty the feeling while pulling one of is worth preserving imo
Christ the new armory is hideous
The problem with the melee combat genre, at least from my experience, is that a lot of the "outplay" potential revolves around making your swings and feints look as ridiculous as possible. Even taking aside the problems with 50/50 instant accel/drag mixups, to new players when some level 200 is ballerina feinting and wessex dragging zweis and mauls it just looks awful. Sure you're going to be able to fool the noob into thinking a swing is coming, but it isn't a fun or rewarding combat system, especially for the newer players who have absolutely no idea why a pole arm looked like it was inside their head but then it was a feint all along.
On the most basic, fundamental level, mordhau does a bad job at accurately notifying users of where their hurtbox is relative to the opponent's weapon hitbox: take lean back stabs for example, if done properly the sword barely looks like it's even moving, it's a raw JPEG animation, no riposte needed; pair that with someone doing 180/360 lean back stabs and it's almost impossible to read that a swing is even coming, and then said person can just feint out of it or morph and a new player is going to immediately panic, even high levels in NA get caught off guard by these tactics, even with thousands of hours on the game. The problem with most JPEGs in this game is that by the time you're actually being damaged, the animation doesn't look realistic enough to have been before your parry, it either looks like a swing isn't coming at all or that a swing hit you before it actually touched what should be your hurtbox. Show any new player these types of swings and they will be immediately turned off from the game, and I know from experience when trying to get people into it.
Honestly, if Mordhau just took the time to polish up some of the jankyness and solve some of the other problems you mentioned (mainly CFTP) then I'd happily spend my free time on the game, but logging on just to see the same Zwei casino dragging is just tilting and tiring.
Just so you know, intelligent responses to mordhau professionals are outright ignored. This is the downward spiral that begins when a community is falling apart. Just noob hunt, don't worry about problems, focus down on taking down what little noobs are left
Because destroying the community feels so good, they'd rather do that.
@@MrHocotateFreight Yeah, I quit playing a little after I made this comment as the game became very repetitive and stale, and ranked duels on NA were completely dead so it had no appeal at all. The devs are a joke and always have been so I never really invested any money into the game aside from the original purchase (half off on steam, luckily).
Melee fighters could be fun, but judging from the aftermath of Chiv 2 it seems like we just aren’t there yet in terms of optimization for new players. Maybe one day.
3:36 Hello
I agree with what you're saying about chambers and perfect parries. The high risk high reward tactic already exists which is simply making your opponent miss by ducking, twisting your body in a way or with footwork. You have to purposefully not block an incoming attack in order to do these things making it about as risky and skillful as it can be. With a chamber its difficult to balance but also adds in a lot of jank surrounding just straight gambling into attacks with a chamber or instant accels.
what is a mobius? like where does the name come from? what does it mean? i dont know!
depending on what comes first i think möbius will be where the people craving true comp will go, but contingent is where everyone will probably flock to later on especially if the things in your video about it like a single player campaign are in the game. That way even people not interested in any pvp will still try out the game and eventually give the pvp a shot which means the game has big potential for growth.
Fill me in on Mobius, I couldn’t find anything when I looked up Mobius game. Also, how far into the dev process are you with Contingent?
check stoutys previous video
Wait, they are making a game for Morbius?
Stouty is a “drag king”
I think another unintuitive thing in mordhau is being able to feint multiple times in a row then still have a full damage attack when you finally release, seeing fights when it’s (feint->feint->feint->move away->move closer->more feints->drag) look so funky. I really like some things about mordhau but other things ruin it for me sadly. It’s not really the same genre but what I’ve liked about for honour is that it’s always clear what you are fighting against, whenever I’ve died in for honour it’s because I made a mistake or I’m just flat out worse than the enemy; one could make the argument that animation abuse and drags adds a skill gap which it kinda does but it’s kinda like slide cancelling in cod warzone: it’s really annoying to play against but isn’t that fun to pull off, at least in my opinion.
The most fun I’ve had in mordhau is when I had some chamber fights with someone is equally as shit as me and it felt so cool to pull off, in those fights I didn’t care if I died at the end because the fight itself was satisfying.
If they release this new fpm game I hope they intentionally make things that look cool and make sense actually be the ‘meta’, so encourage things that look just a little more like sword fights or at least stylised sword fights. I’m not sure how they could do it because it’s very hard to predict what players will abuse lol but if they’re not afraid to change things after people got used to them, then they could make a very polished game.
I feel like a lot of niche multiplayer games get trapped because there is only a small playerbase so even seemingly small changes can just make their game almost dead and without much competition they don’t have many incentives to make changes.
Yeah I’m really excited for Morbius
Stouty, walking on novice server with quarterstaff looks like you on retirement😭
Isn't Mobius the people that make Outer Wilds?
Oh lol i thought that was you. How did you like my epic swing manipulation drag excelsior maul throw? ;)
New information!!!
Hey stouty do you have a discord?
Because you are an enthusiast and upcoming developer of the melee genre i would like to discuss melee mechanics with you.
check my description
I think its very important for the melee genre to have a "forever game" thats competitive however i dont see it growing through those means. Substantial change would come in the form of single-player games that use advanced melee mechanics to enhance the immersion and complexity of the game as opposed to skyrim combat. That way people could have a greater appreciation for these types of titles and seek them out.
Kingdom Come Deliverance is a great foray into what you’re talking about
@@user-ns4zm8qe9p I'm aware and I think it's a good start however I think it if melee were to blow up it would also need to come in the form of a reputable brand name. Elder scrolls is a series that needs more fresh ideas in the combat department, so having and elder scrolls game deliver on satisfying melee would be monumental.
I'd love just Mordhau with better, more readable animations. Maybe turn cap while not attacking too to avoid model feints (IDK if that is the correct term, been some time since I played). But guys janking their view around to look as though they are attacking when not.
Personally I'm not interested in these new melee games because they sound a lot more competitive focused. I like my big team battles, ranged weapons and beating up new players even though I'll never get good enough to beat people in duel servers consistently. Hopefully the competitive crowd is large enough to make the new games work
morbius
All I want is a game that feels good to play and isn't a janky mess, chivalry 2 and mordhau fail to deliver. interesting to see what Mobius and Contingent bring to the table
as an anti drag AND anti flinch blocker i am not very well tolerated in discussions of the genre XD
there has to be the third corner stone
Morbius discussion
Where is my confirmed stimpee collab video?
have around 500 hours in mordhau and I want to know why everyone hates chambers so much?
gamble mechanic that is far too rewarding when guessed right
@@Stouty I only have 150 hours in the game but thought chambering was more of an anti-feint spam mechanic.
Stouty does whatever he wants in Mordhau
I hope Mobius turns out okay for those that are into that. I'm far more interested in big team modes personally.
Chivalry 2 and Mordhau both seem to be leaning into the casual-side alot more. I just want one melee game that embraces the autistic 1v1 and 3v3 community
Im surprised theres new players in this horrid lands named Mordhau
What's the estimated release date of Contingent?
contingentgame.com/faq/
yo this f2p game is a great idea, remind me of slasher pre alpha, I hope the animations i've seen are not defenitives cause is pretty bad let's be honest.The thing that you can punish the feints is just fuckign great (i hated mordhau for those), you should change the color in the kill feed at least. (everything is the same color, i bet it's not done yet).
I think you might be underestimating a new player’s ability to tolerate and pick up unfamiliar mechanics. Its important to remember that FPS games as a genre are pretty singular in their simplicity (excluding platformers or mobile games in the candy crush vein). It’s undeniable that the FPS is dominant, but there are several genres that have attracted robust and self-sustaining audiences while having a high degree of mechanical complexity, at least compared to The FPS.
I hear what you’re saying about drags. I still think they’re an integral part of the formula, but its undeniable that they’re responsible for some amount of player churn. But queued combos? Thats a very rudimentary mechanic. I can’t see why that should be changed.
Could you share more of your thoughts about that? The Melee FPS doesn’t have the 30 years of history that the FPS does, but even so, it’s been in existence for 15 years. Most people consider the formula to be fairly solidified at this point. A video sharing your thoughts to the contrary would be really interesting.
Thanks for the vids man, you’re doing great work this year.
Its existence whilst a decade old (starting with c:mw) is limited to ~4 titles (3 of which are from the same team) so I would argue that very little can be considered concrete other than the very foundation of realtime swings and blocking
@@Stouty I think they were referencing the age of chivalry mod which came out ~15 years back
@@clemtarpey1100 yeah id personally only count games rather than mods, seems like aoc was basically development time for cmw
bro i thought this was a morbius discussion not a mobius discussion
❤️I LOVE DRAGS❤️
Should I invest in contingent or mobius
contobus
@@Stouty 🙏
There are novice servers in Mordhau now? Official or community?
official
Def didn’t read morbius discussion
It is like an a new virgin jenre of games. Fully based on your skill (like OSU! - my favourite example to mordhau) game. Can't wait for a new better theb the Mordhau (and ofc similar in mechanics ) games.
I can tell you from my perspective as a more casual mordhau player that drags are 100% the reason why I dont main this game, super cancerous animations that are unreadable aren't a desirable mechanic to players who have no idea how to do them, how to counter them and for most dont even know they're in the game until you die to them.
Edit: I've had mordhau since release but only clocked 116 hours since then because it's only fun until I remember how horrible some mechanics are.
Its mobing time
First Person Martial Arts
What made chamber feint to parry so bad before they nerfed it?
It countered dragging in exchange for ten stam and made the mid tier player far more safe in their day to day experience. I miss it because in order to stomp casual I actually need to pay far more attention. It removed zero skill from the game, it made it harder to kill people who knew what they were doing and not much else.
I would fully accept a mordhau where dragging is toned down and chamber feint to parry existed. The drag lords get to do their drags and win some top tier duels that come down to stamina, the competent casuals are rewarded for their time investment and technique, the new players have an easier than most way to actually improve while still making the skill gap very apparent and cool, and I get to be among the top tier gamers because of my shifty playstyle and aversion to dragging.
To be real, I think the ideal formula is very much inside of both mordhau and chiv 2 rn, just needs to be brought to the middle of the two games' approaches with all the best features and support included from both games.
Timed block+CFTP along with all the ranged options made a very fun sandbox IMO, I miss the old unnerfed catapult too because it was both VERY fun and EASILY counterable because it made a crossmap noise that you could DODGE if you were paying attention. It was still a power weapon that people fought over though, it was the most fun weapon in the game because I'd get a friend to spot for me on the other side of the feitoria wall and I'd kill the entire enemy team on the point from across the entire map. It was beautiful and entirely counterable if they could win a melee fight over the catapult with me (they couldn't but you get the idea, it's not for lack of skill.).
chftp isn't even the main reason why chambers should be removed but yes it's just a gimmick that way too many players were crutching
Building a game to exclusively cater to Comp is stupid, and that game will be dead within half a year at the latest. Saying that "noobs will just watch comp players lol, they'll just copy them and like the game lol" may sound good in theory, but not in practice. Your game needs to be fun as is so that people will want to continue to play and get good at the game.
What is Mobius exactly?
an upcoming 5v5 melee game
i think capture the flag would be great in a fpm
Morbius
holy shit im at 10:09
Last time i searched for Mobius on steam i got hentai. Never again
When I saw another mordhau video I jumped. I thought you were taking a long break from the game
I only play for ranked/coaching or in this instance I was checking out new patch content
@@Stouty ah I see. Do u plan to make more ranked videos in the future?
@@bl00dfeindd0minium3 maybe
Well I dont think making it small and competitive is the gold standard for a good melee slasher game. In my opinion as complete casual to the genre making it simple and skill floor as low as it can get yet the skill ceiling should be endless. Golden rule for this is Rocket League (that game was made by 10 people) the prequel to it SARPBC was overcomplicated too with hidden mechanics to powerslide and car control but they streamlined it for a sequel made in on UE4 also made boosts less scarce but burned faster which meant if you want to do a cool goal you had to time it right which further increased skill ceiling. Thats what melee genre needs I think everyone especially Chiv 2 is overcomplicating it to the point of absurdity with tiny details. Why the hell do you need jab kicks shield bash, drag, riposte, chamber, in a game. I think more than enough would be accels, block, dodge, morph and thats it. Also I think having a comp scene naturally build would be great idea Counter Strike, Rocket League, League of Legends were not competitive from get go they became competitve through their community and solid mechanics.
rocket league is only an esport from the direct support of the developers, it's also a small scale game
@@Stouty Yea I know but focusing on a game making it as esport will detract alot of potential players since it will be obsessed with metas and overall create a toxic community. Instead having something with solid foundation and let competitive side grow with small help of devs by contributing to tournaments I think its way to go perhaps some small scale events
@@ValidatedPerson a solid foundation that grew naturally, like say Chivalry: Medieval Warfare?
@@Stouty Well I dont know story of Chivalry since I wasnt there in its inception. I think a Rocket League or League of Legends had a great foundation for esports tournaments because even though they both had shortcomings it was better naturaly evolved than lets say Overwatch or Heroes of the Storm both games were competitive from get go so they become esports and game and esports fanbase suffer for it. Same as Mordhau wanted to be competitive than they realized community would be small and they started to appease casuals and ultimately created a game for nobody.
@@ValidatedPerson Correct, hence why they should have focused on competitive
Nice facecam. 👍
wtf I just will pillage everyone and bypass the kick system hahahha
pillage
I like drags. And reverses and backswings and waterfalls and wessexes (i dont like back parries tho). They are smart outcomes that imo add fun (for the one succeeding ofc) and versatility to the combat. After all not a single game in this genre is even close to what real sword fighting looks like nor tries to be, so why not drags and other tricks as mechanics?
because you are in the vast minority
there's literally no reason other than the skill cap, it's too hard for newer casual players and too easy for older competitive players. since mordhau was switched to a mainly casual audience halfway through the alpha's development, they've been gradually lowering the skill cap so it's easier to pick up, leaving those who have mastered it with completely neutered mechanics. the only good defense for nerfing and removing these staples of high level melee slasher is that it leaves a percentage of the people who can't or don't care to learn in the dust, which, you know, is how a high level mechanic should work lmao. it's literally removing options from the pool of attack diversity because the majority of people don't understand and that's why mobius is being developed. swing manip will be intrinsic, those who understand its complexity will be paired with likewise opponents, while those who don't will have the same. it'll be effectively two different games with a bridge between for those who truly care to learn. flavor of the monthers will fight other flavor of the monthers, those who stick with it will be matched with those who stick with it then (ideally) everyone will be satisfied and no more people on reddit will complain about ballerina physics for the 1999999999999999999999th time
wtf is mobius
"noob hunting" and being mean to new players like this is why mordhau is rightfully dying and chivalry 2 is winning.