Experiment: are feints readable? (the results will shock you)
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- Опубліковано 4 лип 2024
- Coaching: mfy.gg/@stouty
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Timestamps:
00:00 - Debate with Bear
04:02 - I try to read Bear's feints
08:32 - Bear tries to read my drags
11:29 - Repeating test with Redblue
14:51 - Conclusion (Bear coping)
17:22 - INSANE reads - Ігри
arguing with bear on his own terms
Lol
Are you Takara of 2009's FOnline?
@@smiechu47 yep played with /v/ and ran a big guns build
bear is a escaped lab experiment
@@KingTakara I was there as well, o7
it's literally insane how several people can read 10% of the swings in manip but then read 90% of the feinted swings and they can still argue about it
feints are definitely readable, but once read, the player who read the feint must be rewarded, if not, bad game design
well mordhau rewards you with stamina advantage
He said riposte are better than feint in every single way in vanilla
@@vBlue-someone should feint him with polehammer
@@felipdn3329 resourceful playstyle becomes obsolete due to stam on hit mechanic, it rewards bad players who chamber and feint all their stam away
wrong feints are not consistently readable 🥰
i love hearing stouty and who i assume is bear fighting for the time to speak waiting for each other to stop talking and listen haha
This Is What A Healthy Disagreement Looks Like
HI LOTH!!!!! (feints are readable)
@@Stouty Really wish this kind of discourse was more common in the US
stop farming me on hatchet
Healthy disagreement: bear calls stouty braindead and impossible to argue with, because he didn't agree with him after he repeated the same bad argument like 10 times
i have this same 50/50 vs read argument with a friend all the time about fighting games. a 50/50 is a random decision, a read is an educated guess based on what your opponent has done, what they have yet to do, how you've conditioned them to react, how they've conditioned you to react and a bunch more facets that make a read a lot different and interesting then a guess or 50/50.
reading in this genre doesn't refer to guessing
++++ yes yes especially the conditioning part so true
yea in this context read means perceiving your opponents option then reacting accordingly. e.g. a read in other genres would be thinking "my opponent feinted twice and it didnt work, he probably wont feint next time" then early parrying. in melee read means properly visualizing that your opponent hasnt feinted, then reacting with a parry in that miniscule timeframe.
50/50 chance of winning when you play the lottery, you either win the lottery or you dont
@@thestralner6335 so you spent all of those words to literally just say reading = reacting.
Reading is as OP stated, an educated guess.
To use an FPS game as an example. If you see an enemy run behind a wall, and there's bullet penetration, then you would shoot where you think they are around, even though you can't actually see them.
A pure guess is just running around a corner and automatically shooting even though you have no reason that an enemy should be there.
Man I appreciate that yall are experimenting with this stuff and are still working on deducing what's not skill/best for the mechanics in the genre. Best of luck on your game homie.
will bear get %50 of this videos revenue
It doesn't even matter if you fall for one feint every now and then in this feint spam experiment, in a real fight you're just going to punish them instantly after reading the feint. Bear was hard coping.
Every time someone called me a gambler for not falling for fakes made me just have a brain aneurysm, is it really just super dumb luck if you can do it consecutively? Honestly never thought too deep about it because it just seemed like something all the whiners spouted when losing, but thought most people would agree that drags are honestly just unfair. I never felt cheated out of a fight because someone killed me by faking.
i love the double read at the end right after he says that you cant read lol
You mean after he gets hit like 30 times lmao?
You are right, some people are better at reading than others. In mordhau I have fought a player who would always enter with a stab to overhead morph in facehug range. I would kick him every time he entered and he lost every fight. After a couple weeks he just refused to fight me, he never learnt. I met someone that would always gamble stab with rapier and shield, I would just chamber and quickly accel overhead and catch him every time. He never changed and stopped playing when updates ruined his play style, he would ONLY play that and had 600 hours, I never saw him in a duel or 3v3 game.
That's an interesting point if I am understanding correctly. I think duelist (you) see the game in a different way than average players (shield guy). I hardly care enough to try and analyze an enemy's attack style. I may after like our 10th isolated battle if they have unique armour on, but for the most part I would imagine the average player is reactive to the person in front of them and does not assume much.
I’m not sure what he means. Having the patience to wait that split second to read if an attack is truly committed is definitely a skill. Seems like homie is used to spamming counters. It’s crazy how often I’m able to mix someone up by not countering or riposting, just a simple block followed by some footwork or a feint baits out so many misses.
How many fluke chambers this man got
I do this from time to time because I recognized it as a flaw of my own, definitely underrated to occasionally give up an initiative play like a riposte. Totally can melt your opponents brain for a second
I can see the commits too - you can read them. It's a "50/50" until you see it.
The trouble is that the window of opportunity to parry is like .2 seconds.
Which is a trainable skill like aim in shooters.
The idea feints are rng is wrong but I have to agree with Accel/decel being borderline RNG particularly when you can do both in an animation.
The whole thing could be resolved with speed based damage but apparently losing a limb to a sword lightly touching you is fun.
Drags should deal 60% less damage. Accels should deal 30% less damage
@@Paronakor drags could do less damage but take less stam and accels could be vis versa.
Videos about melee game theory are really interesting to me. It may also shine a light on the depth of the genre that many people aren’t aware of. Hope to see more of it in the future, especially for the next gen of melee games
Worst debate I've ever seen
the outcome of this experiment shows that reading the 0 stamina cost riposte drag isn't a 50/50 because it's in fact a 20/80
Reading feints IS something higher skill players can do. It's another form of skill gaping, and it's definitely a real thing. It's even a thing irl hence why there are things like world champion fighters and journyman fighters.
ify on in-game part reading isn't even close to the main diff between journeymen and champs lol
It’s sometimes impossible or very hard to expect a feint due to the amplified speed of some weapons bc of accels especially at a higher skill ceiling like stouty’s, and many more times it’s based on reaction time- and for some the grunt sound effect. Predicting a feint is pretty situational.
(Also, I’m not sure if I repeated some of your statements, just saying how I feel about it).
This is why (with a fast enough weapon) chambering can dominate feint situations. I read most of my opponents swings and if I see a crazy accel overhead coming, I go for the overhead chamber. Whether they actually follow up on the feint with a swing or not, you now have initiative and your opponent has to either parry (or, if they’re fast enough) chamber your swing back. Chambering is not the absolute best option for every encounter because it can make you easy to read/feel out in combat, but it’s a great way to put acute pressure on your opponent and can help you put them on their heels very quickly.
u are a great friend, I would lose my shit in front of a person like this and lose a friend in the process.
Stouty, have you tried PVKII? The combat system is similar to M&B but very different at the competitive level.
nope
Glad to see you're doing some Mordhau content. You have some awesome reads. Feints are harder for me to deal with. Drags I feel like I can mitigate easier with footwork
That's starting to make sense now, I literally cannot parry any of those ripostes because they just seem to be instant, especially the accel ones. I try to wait for it and see if they drag or accel but the accel one is so quick its impossible for me. I do better with the drag ones but still not a great success rate. I am learning to read feints, I think that just takes a lot of practice and learning the animations. So I'd say I agree with you Stouty.
Hi legend
Happy new year
I played a lot of For Honor and there was a lot of feint to soft feint action and thought people often call it gamble to read its more like a psychology battle to try and understand what your opponent thinking
"Ok so he threw 3 straight hits he'snot gona make the 4th"
And my favourite thing in fights is to use acsels and drags among side feints to manipulate what my enemy expect and its really fun
That's why i'm barely a violet diamond (idk the name)
I also bought chiv 2 and its really fun! Thank you for all the videos you made about this game they made me buy it for a new year and i dont regret
P.S.
Do you have any vid on a comfortable controls to adjust after mordau?
yessir check my guide playlist
For Honor is literal casino gameplay alas. The variables are so small that there is a good chance you can make a chain of 4 or 5 correct decisions, win and get biased that you "read" the enemy.
I don't understand how a person could watch the whole video, or better yet be present for the entirety of this "test", and still come away with the opinion of "yep both are 50/50"
Bear = Avg 2023 mordhau cope machine
i support you stouty, keep up the fight
Did you not play chiv? You have to mitigate the threat of another players offense, Through creating distance or other means. Ripostes and Feints should NOT by any means be readable standing still not mitigating a single thing.
and yet we see that feints are readable at such distances, whereas ripostes are not
@@Stouty The difference is you can use directional footwork on ripostes, Because the riposte is stuck in the animation you can abuse movement to run into or out of the draw tracer, With feints you cannot be directional as the animation could be a feint, morph, ect. So distance is the only form of mitigation.
Again I am not sure what comp mod EU uses, And in vanilla's current state i agree everything is 50/50, and the state of the game is terrible, But assuming offense is strong, All the ideals of Mitigation still apply.
@@colton204 I would recommend taking a stats course if you think feints are 50/50 after watching this video. What are the odds of guessing a coin toss correctly 20 times consecutively?
@@Stouty The problem with the video is you are not entertaining the reality of the mechanics.
Feints are only readable given distance to the beginning of the animation release, Aka without any form of artificial mitigation or distance they are consistently unreadable.
Ripostes travel on a consistent path meaning as soon as they windup a riposte we understand where the animation is going to start and end, If you force yourself into their bubble and punish neutral manip by threatening to run into every swing, You can consistently mitigate pretty much all manip especially opn 500 release weapons,
Zwi feels best for manip because of the 525 all weapons used to have until the devs ruiend vanilla balance.
I'd love to have another conversation on this in discord if you are willing, I cannot explain perfectly over text.
@@colton204 OK but how come I read 20 of Redblue's feints in a row whilst stationary?
I can drag you in next time I'm streaming but I think the above question sort of ends the debate
How bear is able to still argue about this after all that is lowkey impressive
STOUT THE GOAT
Is there a resource for learning this game (mainly duels)? Like a guide, wiki, blog etc?
i have a 2022 settings guide, I also offer coaching
The whole skill in reading drags is footworking.
That's not reading, that's like saying I "read" a feint by double parrying after falling for the feint
@@Stouty this is an overly technical way of looking at the situation. What use case is there to stand still and hard hard read a feint?
Even that situation isnt static, standing still is a way to bait a kick. Standing still is still a "soft" read in that sense
@@Stouty Not particularly, I feel like footwork allows for that window that players have to read swing manipulation. Double parrying is only able to be done if you parry early, or the enemy mistimes their next swing after the successful parry. Using footwork should be the standard, it allows for a higher skill ceiling in duels.
@@True-Ru nobody uses footwork to read swing manip, they use it to run away after early parrying. That's gambling
@@Stouty and this is all Mordhau has become now
In Mordhau,
When someone feints you and it gets read, the bookworm gets a bit of stam advantage, as well as initiative (depending on the speed of the response). Also, in the taking of initiative, you can start a feint matching storm, where the duelers hot potato initiative back and forth to each other.
Note: If someone tries to steal initiative after reading a feint, they are still susceptible to a kick if they're within range (Maybe this is considered a gamble, but others call it footwork gaming, and I consider it that too).
At the end of the day:
Mordhau has a lineup of mechanics that are based around feints and reading that revolves around the initiative and tempo system (buffers). So this makes feints more skill based than all of the mitigation going on with swing manipulation.
Personal note:
I found that once I grasped the fundamentals and started to get a feel for how high level mord players abuse these very fundamentals, I was able to read their feints but not their swing manipulation, even after hundreds of hours in the game.
i reached diamond 2 w/ 500 hours and im starting to see what yall are talking about now. when it comes to drags
Even in Chiv 1 feints were readable with most of the 2h weapons and that was so cancerous for feints that people vote kicked you for using them in pubs. Never going to work 100% of the time but there's clear skill gaps in feint reads just like with anything else in these games. "reading" your opponents mind is another big part of feint reading as well
crushes brilliant game design at work
One thing I saw with the feints is that it does look noticeably better to watch. Everything that's happening seems to make sense. The looking to the sky nonsense to slow down your weapon looks awkward and totally counter intuitive, idk how people defend dragging, jesus christ.
ALSO: One more thing to note, an attack that's proper will have the character sound off when making a real attack. Something I noticed when watching this, when you feint, your character doesn't make a noise.
18:10 how do you do this one?
omfg during the beginning conversation, i was thinking yall were talking in chiv terms and was confused. when it cut to mordhau it made a lot more sense (i was confused in understanding what yall stances were)
with footwork feints and drags are even more readable. Is it HARD though and does it require SKILL AND FOOTWORK(something bear might lack), yes.
what mol skin is that
1:55 nailed it and his response proves it as he's frustrated and angry so quickly in this argument he's trying to ice skate up hill on.
wow they are in VC together so cute the community is healing
can you explain how would one keep swing manipulation but remove drags in a melee game?
check out mount and blade. I don't think they have a perfect system however
My honest attempt would be to have a detection that makes it so that when you drag a swing out and your weapon doesnt touch an oppenent after a certain window your weapons damage is heavily hampered and if parried it would cause higher stamina loss. This would keep the technique but make it very risky to employ and incentivise accelerates to make sure you dont "over swing". This also wouldnt nerf cleaving through multiple people since if you do hit then the rest of your swing is unaffected. Really there should be a sweet spot for damage, stamina drain, and animation recovery in general for all swing animations to both prevent drags and startup strikes from becoming meta and put these techs into the niche techs that are not reliable or too high risk low reward.
@@Stouty oh yeah i have a lot of time in mount and blade. but like you said, not a perfect system and bannerlord felt like a downgrade to me.
in warband high level duels came down to footworking and getting around your opponent's defense. chambers were inconsistent, accels and thrusts had the risk of poking your opponent, leaving you defenseless.
I am not an expert. But I'm a logical thinking human being. So here's an explanation. If you were to literally keep your sword hanging in the air and then gently poke it against someone (by the delay that drag causes) wearing full plate armor, they WOULDN'T EVEN FUCKING FEEL IT. That should be a glancing blow, not a hit. No armor? 1 damage at best because nobody gets debilitated by a sword lightly grazing against their shirt. Make it still interrupt things even though it's not realistic so it resets back to neutral and you can condition them to think you're dragging and accel at an unexpected time for a clean hit. There's just gotta be a better way. If you want to keep the drags, fine. But make it so since its momentum is pathetic, they either deal less damage or the opponent doesn't get interrupted by it and is able to follow through with their own swing and whoever has the better aim on their swing wins the damage trade. People think simultaneous hit trades don't exist in historical combat and/or martial arts it seems...
I would love to see "read/reading/readable" defined because I have a completely different definition of the word in my head from fighting games.
In this case it's about possiblity to tell what's going on by looking on the enemy animations
No guesswork, it's being able to identify what the opponent's action is, after it starts, and react accordingly before their action finishes
In fighting games, reading is more like recognizing your opponents patterns and pre-emptively reacting to what you *think* they're going to do
@@000Mazno000 Pattern recognition is still important in duels. In a casual match not nearly as much. However when you are fighting best of 5 you absolutely will key in to your opponents fighting style and tendencies if you are skilled. This becomes even more important at the highest levels... Not as much with Mordhau because it's relatively small, but with any competitive sport, including fighting games, studying your opponents matches is a crucial component of success. Because of pattern recognition among other things.
@@ZaximusRex I never meant to imply it wasn't important, just meant to distinguish what Stouty means by "reads" in this case
Reading a feint is way easier than reading a riposte-drag just because a feint has one outcome - the opponent's animation stops. With a riposte, there are a dozen ways the animation could go in an analog of WTF is happening - are they dragging to my feet? Acceling to my head? Faking an accel but pulling back a long drag? And with the riposte, you have a split second to find out the flavor of their response. But once your mind can see an animation stop, you can simply not parry to survive a feint. It just takes some focus to identify the event.
in my opinion drags are fun and rewarding and i just started mordhau 2 or 3 days ago and im just even learning how to throw them but already i think they are fun maybe for a top player like you they are dull and repetitive and i understand how a casual player might hate dying to something like that but i still think drags have a place somewhere in fpm and i also agree feints are quite readable and arent rewarding enough to be used over drags if someone could find a balance which i cannot and have both be in the game i think it would be a great fpm game for casuals and also comp players but your solution of removing drags or atleast limiting their effectiveness seems like the best option love you stouty youre my baby daddy
It just doesn't fit with what Mordhau was striving to be from the start. Their whole motto was "fights that look like fights" and decided to allow stuff like that to exist anyways
Hey Stouty do you still play or enjoy mordhau?
didnt see him on the ranked leaderboard anymore yesterday but only means he didnt play ranked
Got back on both leaderboards yesterday but I don't play often and I rarely enjoy myself when I do due to the drag meta
'you cant read this'' as hes reading it
I picked up Chiv 2 from the steam sale after dropping 1000. My biggest issue is how they changed morphs from mordhau. In mordhau you had a chamber which would punish a morph. If you attempt the chamber equivalent in Chiv 2 against the first part of a morph you get hit
morphs punish chambers in mordhau
Feints are readable? Ill cross out one bit of cope, swap it for another
drags and accels can come out of a riposte but feints cant, just knowing when a person can feint already makes it easier to read sometimes
Can you parry Copium?
Stouty can.
But what would combat without drags look like? Very hard to imagine in a Chiv / Mordhau environment, because everything is about timing and drags / accels are there for throwing the timing off. Remove them and you have "who has better ping to get least reds trying to read feints" left. At least on a high level. Also, how would it work? You literally can't stop drags from being a thing unless you remove swing manipulation completely. Lock the players viewport once attacking and even restrict his movement because you can still delay and accelerate by moving left / right. I think you'll need to come up with something completely different to actually get rid of them for good.
it would look like combat dev blog 2 presumably
Watching two players with thousands of hours on a game telling eachother they haven’t encountered tutorial-level game mechanics is funny
I agree with you but I think we can prove this. Gather some players and have them 1v1. Count every hit that isn’t blocked and see whether more hits come after a feint or after a riposte. This would Test during real fight conditions and if feints were so strong we would see them the most.
dude when it feints the weapon starts moving back to the static position but it sometimes looks like the swing is starting
Yup, there's clearly more technique to feinting than what most people suggest
@@Stouty I understand your interpretation. I think there should be a clear visible distinction between a resetting weapon coming off a feint and a weapon beginning to swing. Regardless of the angle from which you’re viewing it. The purpose of the feint is nullified if they look like they’re still committing to the attack when they’re not.
This was like an Aikido master in a streetfight. No youre not supposed to hit me like that xD
My thoughts exactly. When Bear puts him in a feint vortex, he just tells him he's doing it wrong even though he's got him trapped...
dragging in chiv 2 is soo much easier to read than in mord, its so unbelievably janky in mord
Next experiment: Gamble-parrying
Arguing with bear is like talking to a wall
I feel like you guys are using weird terminology. I'd call what you call "reads" reaction. If someone can parry a feint mixup everytime they are reacting. If you slowed the game to 50% you could simply see wether the swing goes past the feint point and then react with a parry, but that clearly isn't possible. "Reading" I guess would be when you suss out your opponents psychology and intentions, a lot of people aren't complete dice rolls. People fall into patterns you can notice, higher level players can suss out those patterns. Theres a spectrum where a player might use a combination of guesswork and reading, the difference isn't always clear.
I think what really happens at high levels is mitigation. Mitigating is using some action to make it where you don't have to read or guess. If you think someone might feint but aren't sure, you can chamber, even if your wrong you don't get punished (unless they drag). With drags you can read them with footwork, making the drag miss, but still blocking in case they accel.
>"Reading" I guess would be when you suss out your opponents psychology and intentions
That's gambling
> If someone can parry a feint mixup everytime they are reacting.
Nobody can do that without cheating, much in the same way no player will hit every headshot
bear is such a mordhau goblin with that biased pov
What if you're both right? Isn't the reward for reading a feint getting the riposte animation?
not exactly, reading a feint leads to more "gamble" punishes while reading drags has to be done with footwork and lucky extended parries. the game is busted in favor of drag/accel still.
If you read a feint you wouldn't get a riposte because there was nothing to parry. The reward is your opponent loses stam and you can potentially increase that stam gap further by punishing (attacking quickly with the small initiative window that occurs after a feint)
@@Stouty I'm referring to reading a feint then parrying their attack (if it comes)
Also are there any lessons from chiv 1 that could be applicable in this scenario in regards to spacing as a mitigation tool?
@@thejhonnie That’s not a reward cause if you parry a swing you lose more stam than the opponent due to stam drain. You can not read a feint and still get the parry, but if the opponent doesn’t commit you will just get hit
@@arkr1s482 but as stouty showed, if you drag off the riposte it's a free hit on your opponent?
good thing theres mitigation lol
i found you whilst you were playing darker and darker. i tuned in to your stream yesterday though, and all I heard was you and bear bickering and becoming argumentative over the simplest of things, are you 2 friends?
can't stand him
@@Stouty sarcastic, i like it. been binge watching your videos, they're great! nice work
Coming from mordhau where I would often feint, I’ve noticed that I don’t feint as much on Chiv because I just haven’t found it effective 🤷♂️
i think most of the time if youre fighting a good player their accels will be placed in such a way that it hits you as soon as it goes into release, so you dont realistically have a chance to read. most of the time when you parry an accel its because you can see where they are pointing and you can guess that its not going to be a drag/feint. if you want mordhau to have readable attacks you should probably have a bigger window after release and before it hits, during which you can actually read that its not a feint and wether its a drag or accel.
If a swing hits you directly after release, it isn't neutraled at all, and can easily be read by their body position and way their character is facing. I agree some weapons its very difficult to see though, thats why chamber-feints can work very well if you haven't been up against them a lot
@@True-Ru i dont think body position gives away everything, because although its hard, you can still move your body sideways for an accel and feint at the last second or do a late riposte drag that convincingly looks like you are doing a fat accel.
Sadly, IMO the red parries sort of makes it more RNG based to some degree,
as there is a window of it happening depending on the server and the two opponents pings will decide how big that window will be.
But that accounts for most, including feinting.
You need to move during the read otherwise it's guessing, if you follow the animation of your opponant with your body, you will have more time to react at the last moment.
Feint reading in Mordhau pushes the limits of human capabilities, but ripostes and drags are simply not competitive.
Two handers/large weapons have 250ms between feint lockout and damaging release, which gives you 250ms to read the attack. (50ms before windup ends = feint lockout, 200ms after release begins = damaging release)
So far I have tested Greatsword, Poleaxe, and Rapier.
Rapier has 225ms. Every weapon's feintable windup is the same, windup minus 50ms, but early release times may vary, such as rapier's. Its early release lasts 175ms instead of 200.
I will do more testing on more weapons tomorrow.
250ms sounds like more than enough time to read an attack, human reaction time can get down into the 150ms, right? True, however this is for simple reactions. Complex reactions like feint reading are a different story, add about 50-200ms to your usual reaction time depending on your skill, and, of course, add your ping to it as well. Most players are playing on 20-40ms, because that's really the best you can ask for if you aren't lucky enough to live next to a server.
A simple reaction is what human reaction time is generally measured with, and is a straight path, like clicking a button when a color flashes on your screen. There's a linear pathway in your brain: yielding for color > color flashes > ... > CLICK!!!
A complex reaction is not linear, it has conditions.
In Mordhau, you are not waiting for a color to flash to click, you're looking for a condition. If they feint, don't click. If they don't feint, click. It sounds simple, but it's not. Your brain needs to have a good sense of the timing and rhythm of the particular weapon you're dealing with so it can recognize the moment the attack is committed. That's not the hard part, the hard part is everything that your brain has to do that comes after that, you need to analyze a lot of visual information and a lot of different factors and ambiguities come into play, your brain makes last moment second guesses such as "was that a wiggle or did the feint animation begin?" "is that movement normal? wait what point of the windup am i in again?" which just add on more and more precious milliseconds to your reaction.
Once your brain has made its decision, there's still more to do. It needs to tell your nervous system and the muscles in your hand to either STOP or GO, and POISING to do one or the other is one of the big reasons complex reactions add a lot more time than simple ones, because when you're clicking a button when a color flashes, your finger is poised and ready to slam down that mouse button at the earliest signal, but the process of telling it whether or not to in complex reactions takes more time.
For simple reactions, your reaction time is: sensory input processing time + "did the color just change? yes? okay" + FIRE
For reading a feint in Mordhau, your reaction time is: sensory input processing time + timing errors + confirmation for visual ambiguities + final confirmations + sorting which signal to fire + FIRE
The point is, reading the unreadable in Mordhau is absolutely possible, but it's definitely pushing the limits of human capabilities.
Riposting and drags are too liquid to break down analytically like this as they contain many more variables than a feint. When parrying a riposte, you are basically guessing how they're going to footwork, counter footworking accordingly, and then timing your parry to protect you as close to right before the earliest POSSIBLE moment they could hit you in the next instant, as well as adjusting for other factors like how do they tend to footwork, do they have any patterns, am I even reading their animation correctly, they're human so what are the chances they're ACTUALLY going to hit me at the earliest possible moment they can if they accel, etc.
Ripostes are an extremely complicated attack to defend against, and while they are fun, I don't think they belong in a competitive fighting game that wants to take its competition seriously. Because while reading feints as it stands right now is extremely difficult, it's at least one dimensional. Drags are not competitive, broken down they are far too chaotic.
very useful information
Considering average reaction time of a gamer who plays every day is around 180-200ms, doesn't that prove some things are just literally unreactable in the heat of the game? Let's say you're a god level CS player with insane reactions. You can hit the CTs crossing mid doors on dust 2 EVERY TIME. You need around 170-180ms reaction time for that. And literally nobody keeps up that level of reaction time every single time they react. So even with those reactions, you are unable to react to stuff in Mordhau for example. And I think there's only one big culprit to this. The animations are WAY TOO wonky and goofy. You have to condition yourself to literal excrement level in terms of animation and gameplay design to be good at Mordhau. It's no wonder people quit.
@@Inaluogh Yeah basically. There's two sides of this argument, there's those who believe that this inherent masking of animations is part of the game and what makes it skill based, and there are those who don't understand how something like this can be skill based in the first place. Which, both sides are right in their own way, but the real conclusion is that Mordhau is niche, and likely always will be.
You can definitely make an educated guess if someone's gonna feint which could be considered as reading but it's also a little risky bc you could be wrong
that's a gamble, not a read. You can't gamble 20 times in a row correctly
Great video, Elon!
The true answer to repost drags is early chamber as though they're going to accel and if they do you get the chamber , if they feint you get tempo, if they kick you can kick or ftp, if they drag you can feint, footwork and chamber again.
except chftp costs 30 stam (was nerfed over a year ago)
@@Stouty well if you're a true degenerate (like me) you might consider using the dodge perk. When your opponent swings you try the early chamber and dodge sideways towards their swing, if they accel you get your chamber, if you don't get your chamber because they footwork or drag you immediately dodge again in the opposite direction forcing a hit before the drag hits you.
It's not an optimal strategy but I've been vote kicked numerous times by players who don't know this trick as it looks like I've removed the turn cap from their perspective.
btw its great that you comment and interact with the community :)
got bored after bears 1000th contradiction
but the thing is even if feints are more readable in a lan setting and stoutly could parry 75% of feints in a lan setting, that is not marketable to the public. Average ping is around 20 to 40 ping depending on your location, some people play even higher and will never get an opportunity to play mordhau at a lan. The only way to make feints readable for a feint reliant game is to have client side parrying. In the end, swing manip and feints need to be countered with proper use of footwork and reading, not just reading like shown in this test.
There are other potential online solutions, like roll back in fighting games
My conclusion on mordhau since 2020 , you need to early parry every single swings otherwize if you read correctly you will have a red parry.
Get optical internet - I thought I removed the red parry command when I first tried it
Only if you have bad internet. Mixing in a chamber every now and again really improves your skill, as well as parrying later if you read it well. Parrying early allows for more susceptibility for falling for drags
@@Stouty man wtf u talking about. I played an year or near at server which was in 1 kilometer from my home, that was 4-8 ping, AND STILL THERE WAS REDPARRYS
@@REtoX_NSK I know, that's why I said at first
But isnt it more about the animation of the game rather than the concepts? Never really played another melee game besides mordhau, so I cant compare it to anything else.
The result actually shocked me. My guess that in low and mid play that it would be the other way around, idk about high play (assuming that you are the elite and a step above high play)
conceptually a tiny block window will be harder to accurately use vs a floaty riposte than reading a normal swing
I always wondered if a possible way to fix dragging and the high level back n forth counter feinting is a sort of "held counter".
Pretty much, like normal counters in Chiv 2, when you attack while blocking your attack specifically becomes a counter. But now players can hold that counter attack as long as they want (maybe it drains STAM like holding block).
The only way for the attack to actually go through into its release phase (when damage is applied) it must be hit with the correct countered attack from an enemy, otherwise its interrupted, or if the player never gets hit, the attack will go into a recovery when they let go of the button.
This for one makes it so as long as you learn patience, you can hold your counter until a dragging opponent hits you, as long as you did guess the counter attack correctly.
For second, this will practically replace the whole counter feint meta, as you just couldn't feint out of the counter anymore. its either you guess correct and hold until you counter, or you guess wrong and get hit while you're in recovery of canceling the counter back into block or whatever other action.
Tell me what might be bad about this, cause I would like to hear if it can ever be a system in perhaps a future melee game.
Feints cost stamina and can be punished heavily with chambers. If a player tries to chamber a drag he will either miss and get hit/parry and waste even more stamina or just chamber regulary and get hit by the next accel/drag
This is why you chamber morph into feint into accel, then cry yellow tears of stamina ^^
Feinting is something you can condition and adapt. Dragging is deceptive.
Swing manip should just have better resistance/lockout to where you initially angle the attack so you can't just freely move around the swing in any direction making weird janky animations.
make it too stiff and good players wouldn't get hit once before stamina depletion
Stout u still playing that game?
only to coach
Answer: Yes
bear doesn't understand what a scientific experiment is
Debate aside, seeing Stouty wasn't doing so good in Chiv2's TO in the first clip actually surprised me
wasn't really playing, just running around whilst focused on the conversation
The Dark and Darker playtest is over... Stouty resorts back to bullying men with bigger foreheads than his own..
What is the dispute about? Axels and drag more than feints. Without skill, brain and mother, I took first place using axels and drag. When it came to stronger players, then if the fight was not equal, and due to a combination of circumstances I seized the initiative, that is, not due to the skills of the game, then I could consolidate an accidental advantage by consciously using axels and dragging.
Axel and drag poison mordhau and chivalry, that's a fact. Mordhau feints are also not good, they are very choking in the beginning, and in the end, together with the super fast axel, it is still an extremely strong thing on a one-handed weapon. Broken animations and much more.
If all this is repaired, then feints will be given the opportunity of 50 to 50, but with incomplete damage. And in the case of axel and drag, it is forbidden to change the camera when the weapon is already in the stage of impact.
Or fix it some other way. Confirms the problems that I outlined and their reality, and the fact that the axel and drag is a bigger problem than feints that slowed down the release of weapons by 25 in the latest patches. But this is not to say that it would help a lot.
Game needs rollback to prevent red parry
I just chamber and footwork. Pros dont expect a chamber to their riposte-reliant gambling. Its a stamina management sim game to me
5:19 "red parries, I'm counting those as reads because in a lan environment I would have parried that" 7:07 "the fact that I'm seeing red parry numbers means I'm reading it"
Stouty smoking that sweet copium haha, if you red parry it means you parried too late whether you have 8ms or 80ms lmao
except on 0 ping the input would be accurate
@@Stouty While this is true I imagine 99% of the playerbase isn't playing on lan which means you need to parry earlier. I just disabled the red parry notification so I won't over think it.
sure but for the purpose of this test it made sense to count them
@@TheVocoderGuy its a measure of reaction time and whether or not someone could feasible react fast enough to parry a feinter. for the purpose of understanding swing manip client-side, it makes sense to compensate for ping that might offset results. though i agree that the argument being made by the mordhau players might hold up based on their personal experiences, there is an objective difference between luck and insane reaction speed
Bear crazy one swing manip
Damn I would love to taste bears's teeth with my hands. Its like speaking towards a kid
Think you guys need to consider distance. The closer the enemy is to you while feinting the harder it becomes to read. Sometimes it’s impossible and does become luck based. But if you use footwork and keep distance from the feinter, I feel it becomes easier to read the attacks.making it not imbalanced.
Watch the final chapter. Distance makes things easier but it's clearly possible for top players to read even at facehug
@@Stouty sorry, I main executioner, so at close distance I usually go for a kick. Isn’t kick the fastest move on the game, making it the best option in almost every up close situation
@@trymii5396 can be baited by walking back
@@Stouty hmm, light armor enjoyer?
Most intelligent mordhau player
"why do you want to remove a feature?" bruh, you also want to remove a feature
Good thing mordhau will never have a massive esports scene as so many mechanics are janky and broken.
i've never seen so much copium 😭
Gamble read feints? I can read them just fine and 100% of the time I kick my opponent out of feint spamming (edit actually not 100% cause I do miss my kick sometimes and leaves me open for them to get a free hit
try a fast wind up weapon, then you wont need to risk missing kicks
@@Stouty I usually use billhook but I switched over to evening star so I tend to kick a lot especially when they're all up in my face
I really dont understand how can someome play Chivalry after Mordhau.. That physics is sooo wierd here and feels absolutely unreal. It can have a huge amount of other super stuffs, but is not a physics the main thing?