Gotta give a quick shoutout to Greg from Six Sided Discs who also made a great video on these discs! You can check it out here: ua-cam.com/video/qFZph0l0ymo/v-deo.html
If I had a Disc Golf disc company, I would make as big a bead PDGA will allow as possible provided we meet the PDGA requirements for each disc to be approved. I am talking about this and possibly making discs where the bead is so big the rim is also the bead and no other rim for the disc, different variants of how wide this bead as rim is.
I already solved your "possible concerns" on the shavings my dad was a cnc lathe guy for 50 years and I play disc golf and this was one of my business ideas. I will tell you how to solve it but I have one stipulation . Would like to discuss them further in email
THIS is why i love Trash Panda (among 10,000 other reasons). Dude is so stoked on the game, he makes a video on another companies disc talking about how great it is. I don't think anyone loves Disc Golf more than Jesse. This is how the sport grows.
For top level pros that often struggle finding the exact "run" of their favorite discs, this would solve that. Provide a copy for CNC and they create new ones. Could also eliminate the need to "beat in" a disc as CNC can cut out an exact new version of the "beat in" one. Top pros like Eagle & Gannon (plus others) who are total nerds about disc characteristics, now you can develop fast prototypes to exactly fit their arm speed and spin rates. I can see an innovative company like MVP partnering with CNC and then they could provide those discs to their pros. I bought one and it's amazing (CNC- as I'm at 6,000+ feet here in Mexico) Just like what happened with Jesse and his bomb drives,.I experienced the same thing. I appreciate Trash Panda showcasing this company and what they are doing to advance the sport.
Did you watch the video? The name of the disc is CNC, that's not the name of the company, MVP can't partner with a disc. 😆And you're not going to be able to replicate a 'beat in' disc. The magic of most 'beat in' discs is they eventually stop beating in, if you clone a disc at that stage it's just going to 'beat in' to something new itself. And they would first have to somehow capture all the exact imperfections in the disc created by countless throws.
Kind of... One thing you aren't taking into consideration is the differences between injection molding and CNC. Injection molding is shoving plastic into a mold, whereas CNC is taking raw plastic and shaving it to an exact shape. The reason certain runs of discs fly different than others is not just dome, but also plastic density, plastic density uniformity, dry time, humidity while in the mold, humidity while drying, not to mention exactly which mix of plastic was being used while the run was happening. You will never, ever be able to "copy" a 2022 Gurthie Wraith on a lathe, for instance. Too many characteristics to replicate beyond the cut out shape of the disc. And a beat in disc will have actual knicks and scrapes on it which you can't replicate very well on a lathe CNC, maybe a flat CNC. But if a touring pro were throwing CNC discs, it certainly would eliminate the need to find a certain run as they're all going to be very, very close to the same.
CNC still uses an injection molded blank that is machined to final form. Mold in stress is what causes variability in injection molded discs and, to a lesser degree, any variability in the CNC. The stress releases when machined to slightly warp the part. Compression molding and injection Compression molding (aka Coining) are two molding techniques that reduce mold in stress. If CNC used low stress molding techniques for their blanks, their variability would be improved. Low stress molding techniques would also greatly improve injection molded discs.
I bought 4 minis from you maybe 2 years ago and really haven't followed along to close to your journey, just busy, but I really love what you're doing foe this sport. Rock on!
I’ve got the CNC-, and it bombs. It was expensive, but worth it to support this idea becoming mainstream. We need to support innovation, same reason I support Trash Panda!
Very interesting concept for disc manufacturing. Thanks for the info. Also I appreciate your dedication to playing different courses around Colorado for these videos. West Creek doesn't get shown off very often.
The cnc seems like the future of disc golf for real. The consistency of final product seems potentially game changing. Covering a competitor disc because it's exciting for the sport as a whole shows you put the sport first so you've earned my sub
Really cool to see this! I sent Trash Panda some discs I had cut on a CNC, most cut from wood and one cut from a scrap of ABS. They were definitely not as refined as this, as I don't have a lathe-style mill to use. Your point about cutting and tension in the material: that is definitely a factor. We see this a lot with plastics and wood. Wood is a great example because of how organic and unique each tree will grow, there's tension in the material. Cutting away from this can relieve that tension (both in your benefit and to your deficit). The same can happen with plastics, and I think that's primarily controlled by how the material cools down after being made. I've made a run of wooden discs recently, and out of the 18 I made, I would say that 4 or 5 have some slight curve to them, so that on a flat surface they wobble a bit. I don't see that as a hugely detrimental thing, as I've seen some absolutely taco'd discs that people still throw well.
I think the “mold specific mystique” of the injection molding will never be out done. Idk maybe it’s bc I’m older but you come to love the little “mistakes” that occur as a result of an “imperfect” process and cherish the ones that fit you best like no other
Watched another video about ProtoFlyte awhile ago, and the only issue is they are very expensive right now because the blanks they use are expensive, and it takes orders of magnitude longer to CNC a disc than to injection mold one.
Was trying to buy a starter set today. It would be wonderful to have an option for a few extra bucks for your sponsored players' discs to be featured in like a 'player pack starter set' or something like that. A J-milly inner core, an Erica Dune, and for now just an O-zone. Would love you support all of you with one purchase!
I come from the yoyo community and used to run a small company there. One of the first thing I thought when I started playing disc golf is “why is there no CNC machined discs?”. CNC machining completely took over yoyoing in the early 2000s mainly for it’s ability to make high precision machined metal yoyos but the CNC plastic yoyos also play significantly better than the injection molded counterparts. Now obviously the step up in performance and quality won’t be as big for disc golf since it’s a more simple design that’s easier to injection mold but the higher quality and consistency is definitely there and that’s not even going into how easy it’s going to be to prototpe the perfect disc everytime. CNC machining is here to stay and it’ll only be a matter of time until one of the big companies starts doing it. Just wait until they figure out they can CNC in China for a fraction of the cost without dropping quality.
Yeah man.. I sell some really wild looking multi-colored collectable rubber Vibram discs in that price range, but damn.. $40 for one of these discs seem to be way high.
The only way you're going to get the price of discs under control is for the PDGA to man up and set a bag limit... There's way too many people at amateur events lugging around 30+ discs. Likewise way too many pros are bagging 5 variations of one mold that are influencing amateurs. Set a very reasonable bag limit (say 20 discs) and suddenly demand will be checked.
The only way you're going to get the price of discs under control is for the PDGA to man up and set a bag limit... There's way too many people at amateur events lugging around 30+ discs. Likewise way too many pros are bagging 5 variations of one mold that are influencing amateurs. Set a very reasonable bag limit (say 20 discs) and suddenly demand will be checked.
So this is gonna be long and nobody needs to read it, but as someone super into disc golf and manufacturing, here are my brainstorm ideas right off the rip, with no respect for what might be reasonable: * This might open new materials. Obviously, you can make a wood disc, and that’s not very usable, but what about a plastic that might not mold well but can be cut easily on a lathe? * The software engineer in me wants to completely redefine disc choices with this. PDGA rules aside, there is no reason that someone couldn’t define an equation that changes the shape of the disc based on a user input, meaning instead of having discrete stability stops of the CNC-, CNC, CNC+, you say I want the CNC mold with a .56 stability or whatever scale they decide, and the algorithm just moves the parting line of the model and cuts your personal disc. Add some more variables, make it more complicated, and ask people to input 4 flight numbers, any they want for a disc, and the algorithm creates that geometry, and cuts it. But since we aren’t pulling from discrete models, you could input arbitrary precision numbers perfect for you. I want an 11.45 | 4.65 | -.78 | 2.12 driver, which is ever so slightly different than the other person’s 11 5 -1 2, but if they used my numbers, they get the same every time. Obviously, there is no perfect model for numbers to disc because we have a lot of discs that fly essentially identical but with very different geometries and feels, but I think a base disc shape that you modify to make a bit more or less stable an amount the user says is totally doable. Also, why couldn’t people start just designing their own “molds”, and the manufacturer is just that, manufacturing discs that users create. Yeah, I have my own custom designed putter perfect for my hands. Sure, I’ll even sell you the file, or open source it. Now my friends are even making extra on the side as a freelance disc designer. That world sounds crazy. I suppose I left behind the bullet points in favor of talking about this one idea, and i think this is complete science fiction now. I do think, however, that every company is going to start using a CNC lathe to prototype before paying for a mold, because I feel it is more representative of an injection molded disc than 3D printing. Apparently I’m not done. Is it possible to do a micro bubble plastic like blizzard or fission on a lathe? You’d need a bubbly block I suppose and that would likely have a weird surface finish, but… maybe? Also, custom engraved discs? Who needs a sharpie or even stamp for your name and number when they can just add to the design to engrave it in the bottom for you (not super possible on a lathe like a mill, but who’s to say a mill with a spinning table or something doesn’t have advantages… probably not)
Funny enough, I actually thought all discs were made on a CNC before I actually got into the sport, it was surprising to me when I found out how they’re normally made. But I definitely love the idea of this
Smart person here, the centrifugal force of the rotary along with the friction caused by the knife change the plasticity of the plastic you are using. This can lead to the disc having inconsistencies in the circumference. I just made this up idfk
From my conversations with ProtoFlyte, one of the coolest/unique things about the discs is the ability to fine tune the flight plate thickness. As manufacturing is not reliant on the flight plate to distribute molten plastic into the outer edges of a mold, as seen in traditional IM. This also has the same effect as MVP’s gyro tech.
so like in 10 years could you have a machine at the course that could make a disc you needed or even change one up like a more domey buzzz or a river top with a diamond bottom? would be so awesome. No need to keep stock on hand so maybe that could help with the price.
Would say depending on the set up and machine and tooling used you could produce the most constant disc and more easily modify without the cost of molds and mold maintainence. With softer plastics and uncontrollable variables of material and tooling flex while machining plastics. idk if a cnc disc is the way for consumer markets to thrive. Do believe it is a great idea in theory
I'm curious to see how the eventually balance out the durability with the machinability of the plastics they use. more machinable plastics tend to be less durable from a disc golf perspective.(out of the several types i can think of off the top of my head)
I thought this was a really great video. Normally I put these in the background, but I actually watched this one. CNC disc really made me want to try them and pick up the triple pack. But, then I saw the price and I'm not quite sold. Kind of breaks down to about $35 a disc, which I guess is okay, but I still prefer it to be a little cheaper. Sweet video though
I'd be curious to know if they can get consistency CNCing the same disc from different runs of the base mold from gateway. If they can, then problem solved. If not, then this is just a fantastic way to rapid prototype with the same variability of discs between plastic runs.
Do they CNC from a frisbee blank? Do they save the removed materials to make more blanks? If so, could you essentially create a plastic "sour dough" of polymers for a special blend with a small bit of every disc ever made at that location within every future disc? If so, they should call it the CNC Infinity. PAtent pending
Sounds like we’ll get to a point where I can send in a disc that flies exactly how I want it to, and someone could CNC copy it so I have replicas as backups.
So i wonder if they might age differently do to the production? Can the blank molding be modified so they change less with age? I bet that can be improved, even if you cant avoid it completely.
OMG as if I needed another overstable approach disc, you gotta make a sustainable one?! 🤣 My wallet can only take so much abuse! 😅 This video makes me want to ask so many questions! I guess I'll just ask the biggest one on my mind - did the ProtoFlyte folks say anything about the potential to replicate discs that already exist? There are several molds I've thrown over the years that aren't made anymore, or molds whose shape has changed over the years due to either the mold itself being retooled, or the plastics and process changing (and not always for the better - LOOKING AT YOU, FLAT TOPPED COMETS 🤬). It'd be so amazing to be able to 3d scan a disc, have it translated to gcode or whatever, like happens with 3d scanned objects in 3d printing, and be able to consistently have a disc that matches a shape that's no longer in production...
Did the disc have machining marks on the surface? Or was it sanded smooth? Machining metal may be more consistent than injection molding plastic, but machining plastic may not be. It will depend on the quality of the blank- which has to be manufactured before it can be machined. I would imagine the blank might still be injection molded. And like you mentioned at the end, machining a disc will take longer than molding one, so the mfg cost could be challenging. It is cool that CNC is trying it. 👍🏽
Mass production of a particular disc mold will *always* be more efficient by injection molding. The only advantage in CNC production is if you’re only making a single disc or a very small batch. This won’t change.
I can imagine TP having a CNC machine to assist in the development of a new mold. CNC a disc of a proposed design and see how it flies. But then make 10,000 of them using injection molding.
Incorrect. The only advantage is not just for cheaper prototyping. You completely missed the concept of having infinitely uniform discs. This means 15 years from now you can still produce an identical flying disc as you did on the first day, with zero variability in those 15 years. Meanwhile a disc like the Firebird has probably had three dozen different flight variations.
I could not find and option on their website to select color and weight. If I'm paying a premium price for a disc that I should be able to select color and, especially, weight.
Ive been curious, does a disc golf company regularly do a 30 piece study with either laser scanning or a CMM? I would love to see a comparison between injection and milling using laser scanning to color map the deviations and the total percent deviation of each over a 30 part study.
I wonder what the implications are with patents on this? Like the destroyer patent is a “mold” right? Could you technically make a destroyer CAD file and sell that? Or could you modify it very slightly so it is basically the same, but different enough to be legal?
There are no patents on disc golf specific disc shapes anymore. The ones that existed expired years ago. With the PDGA regs on disc design being standardized, disc golf discs across manufacturers will share shape, features and dimensional sizing quite often.
The variation in manufacturing you mention is variable but statistically small and insignificant (unless it was truly a factory second). The consistency of this process is also moot since all discs take hits and change over time.
I think that the problem with CNC discs will be the blank chunks discs are lathed from. How do you ensure consistency between chunks, and between batches of plastic? And then we come to the real kicker: cost! It must take longer than 2 minutes of machine time to make a disc like this. This would mean a high manufacturing cost, and a lot of wasted plastic that would HAVE to be recycled. And my understanding is that re-grind premium plastic which is molded again tends to be more brittle, and liable to cracking over the medium term. This is why RPM only make mini markers from recycled Strata and Atomic plastics - they don't really stand up well to the abuses golf discs are regularly subjected to. I like the idea in principle, but unless the discs can be lathed in one whack, and then smoothed completely in another, without demounting it, then cost is going to be big issue. This is confirmed looking at their web site, and prices in the NZD 65.00 range, shows the discs to be very expensive to make. With freight, that is about triple the price of NZ-made premium RPM discs - which are very well made. I think you are exaggerating the inconsistencies of injection molding. MVP and HoD have very consistent molding, because no humans are involved in the process, which eliminates by far the most common things which affect the shape of the final product. And, it's also worth mentioning that golf discs are the product which push injection molding technology harder than any other. And the fact that manufacturers have made huge leaps in the last few years. I can see that trend continuing into the future, to the point that there is no market for a CNC made disc. I certainly can't see myself selling these at my disc golf store. Customers are quite price sensitive. And a disc that costs three times as much would need to be three times as good.
I broke my hand, and have grip issues, can you CNC a disc to fit my grip better? Or maybe someone else who wears a prosthetic? Can you shape a disc in a way that they could flick a disc better?
Pro looses her bomber CNC on a water carry... No worries the caddie runs to the CNC guy in vendor village who has her disc on file and makes one in the time it takes some pros to putt!
I have a question. Has anyone tested the speed at which a disc changes from an aerodynamic to a ballistic object? In other words, when you throw a putter for approach, it behaves like an aerodynamically. You have lift, drag and gravity acting on it. When you putt with it, if it's a short putt, it acts like a ballistic object. People putt nose-down, nose-up, hyzer and anhyzer, not to mention the turbo putt. At what speed does a putter stop behaving like a wing and become a skipping rock? Thanks.
with the scrapings excess etc why wouldnt they just melt it down and reuse it.. obviously they wouldnt be injecting molding into a disc but you just need a mold thats a solid block anyway
Tooling wears and the machine needs calibration. I feel like there would still be runs that come out differently as the tooling wears and the machine becomes uncalibrated.
Cut down on waste and save time by borrowing from Clashes TONE design. CNC the rim from an already hollow tube. The CNC wouldn't have to waste all that time drilling out the inside and wasting 50% of the blank material. Then CNC the flight plate and glue em together, or injection mold the flight plate on.
Prototyping a disc using CNC looks like magical solution to development workflows. That said, Jesse, you usually don't miss stuff when creating great content, but I really think you did in this video. These CNC discs are still Injection Molded and come with all the same caveats - they are Gateway "Blanks". If disc manufacturing were ways to cook a steak: Injection = Sous Vide, Compression = Grill, 3D Printed = Stove top . These CNC discs are just Sous Vide finished with a torch. The manufacturing process is still the same, it’s the finishing that's different.
They do not "come with all the same caveats". Specifically, as Jesse mentioned, different levels of disc dome. A CNC'd disc will always be exactly the same shape as any other CNC'd disc provided the blank is consistently larger than the shape it is carved down to. You could make valid arguments about the injection molded blank contributing to different densities in the final CNC'd disc, but regardless they do not have ALL the same caveats.
@@lanepemberton8886 I don't think it was your intention, but you validated why I posted the comment in the first place. That is; 'because Jesse didn't mention it, people will believe this is a 4th way to manufacture discs'. That's not a jab at you, it was truly my point. I am in no way knocking this process and I am not arguing the benefits of micro adjustments for prototyping or consistency - it's fantastic. If Gateway gets the pelletized polymers, heats and removes the moisture, programs the injection machine to certain specifications which will affect the density, flexibility, tensile strength, durability, grip, etc. Then produce the blanks, the resulting "blank" is still an injected block of plastic... with injection molding caveats. If you were to take a 3D printed disc and remove the texture left from the 3D printing process via CNC, is that now a 5th way to produce discs? No. That is the point I was trying to convey.
The blanks will have time to set before they're machined, so the tolerance issues of injection molding are not carried through the lathing process. But in terms of energy efficiency, yes, the injection + lathing method is worse than injection alone.
Cost and production of prototype discs is cheaper due to not having to create a mold for injection molding process. You simply input the CAD file for the prototype disc and the CNC will cut it out pretty quick. Coincidentally, molds for injection molding are made by a CNC process. Injection molding is faster per disc, but only after designing and manufacturing the molds required, which is relatively expensive especially if the design turns out to fly different than what was desired. You then have to get a mold redesign and remanufacture - that's where it gets REALLY expensive.
The method is cheaper to produce prototypes and one-offs. But when you try to scale to production runs, you're not going to be able to have the same output rate per machine as you would with injection molding. If these catch on, perhaps we'll see the emergence of a true premium disc market where they can offer value beyond just a special plastic blend.
@@4dwyn Nope, have you ever watched the pros? Every open shot now is always a wide hyzer where the disc never really flips up. They want that overstability for dependable shot consistency because the flight track is repeatable every throw.
Gotta give a quick shoutout to Greg from Six Sided Discs who also made a great video on these discs! You can check it out here: ua-cam.com/video/qFZph0l0ymo/v-deo.html
If I had a Disc Golf disc company, I would make as big a bead PDGA will allow as possible provided we meet the PDGA requirements for each disc to be approved. I am talking about this and possibly making discs where the bead is so big the rim is also the bead and no other rim for the disc, different variants of how wide this bead as rim is.
I already solved your "possible concerns" on the shavings my dad was a cnc lathe guy for 50 years and I play disc golf and this was one of my business ideas. I will tell you how to solve it but I have one stipulation . Would like to discuss them further in email
THIS is why i love Trash Panda (among 10,000 other reasons). Dude is so stoked on the game, he makes a video on another companies disc talking about how great it is. I don't think anyone loves Disc Golf more than Jesse. This is how the sport grows.
I hypothetically love this idea!! Lol keep going Jesse!
For top level pros that often struggle finding the exact "run" of their favorite discs, this would solve that. Provide a copy for CNC and they create new ones. Could also eliminate the need to "beat in" a disc as CNC can cut out an exact new version of the "beat in" one. Top pros like Eagle & Gannon (plus others) who are total nerds about disc characteristics, now you can develop fast prototypes to exactly fit their arm speed and spin rates. I can see an innovative company like MVP partnering with CNC and then they could provide those discs to their pros. I bought one and it's amazing (CNC- as I'm at 6,000+ feet here in Mexico) Just like what happened with Jesse and his bomb drives,.I experienced the same thing. I appreciate Trash Panda showcasing this company and what they are doing to advance the sport.
Did you watch the video? The name of the disc is CNC, that's not the name of the company, MVP can't partner with a disc. 😆And you're not going to be able to replicate a 'beat in' disc. The magic of most 'beat in' discs is they eventually stop beating in, if you clone a disc at that stage it's just going to 'beat in' to something new itself. And they would first have to somehow capture all the exact imperfections in the disc created by countless throws.
Kind of... One thing you aren't taking into consideration is the differences between injection molding and CNC. Injection molding is shoving plastic into a mold, whereas CNC is taking raw plastic and shaving it to an exact shape. The reason certain runs of discs fly different than others is not just dome, but also plastic density, plastic density uniformity, dry time, humidity while in the mold, humidity while drying, not to mention exactly which mix of plastic was being used while the run was happening. You will never, ever be able to "copy" a 2022 Gurthie Wraith on a lathe, for instance. Too many characteristics to replicate beyond the cut out shape of the disc. And a beat in disc will have actual knicks and scrapes on it which you can't replicate very well on a lathe CNC, maybe a flat CNC. But if a touring pro were throwing CNC discs, it certainly would eliminate the need to find a certain run as they're all going to be very, very close to the same.
CNC still uses an injection molded blank that is machined to final form. Mold in stress is what causes variability in injection molded discs and, to a lesser degree, any variability in the CNC. The stress releases when machined to slightly warp the part. Compression molding and injection Compression molding (aka Coining) are two molding techniques that reduce mold in stress. If CNC used low stress molding techniques for their blanks, their variability would be improved. Low stress molding techniques would also greatly improve injection molded discs.
Still waiting for someone to talk about that sneaky ET1 approval 🤫
August 19th tho?
Love these videos! You guys are living the dream, and with these, we can, too.
I bought 4 minis from you maybe 2 years ago and really haven't followed along to close to your journey, just busy, but I really love what you're doing foe this sport. Rock on!
Can't wait for TP's molds to start pumping out blocks of recycled plastic to be cnc'd
Absolutely love what you're doing for the progression of the sport and its sustainability. Keep pushing Jesse!
I’ve got the CNC-, and it bombs. It was expensive, but worth it to support this idea becoming mainstream. We need to support innovation, same reason I support Trash Panda!
Me too. Love it!
Very interesting concept for disc manufacturing. Thanks for the info. Also I appreciate your dedication to playing different courses around Colorado for these videos. West Creek doesn't get shown off very often.
The cnc seems like the future of disc golf for real. The consistency of final product seems potentially game changing. Covering a competitor disc because it's exciting for the sport as a whole shows you put the sport first so you've earned my sub
Really cool to see this! I sent Trash Panda some discs I had cut on a CNC, most cut from wood and one cut from a scrap of ABS. They were definitely not as refined as this, as I don't have a lathe-style mill to use.
Your point about cutting and tension in the material: that is definitely a factor. We see this a lot with plastics and wood. Wood is a great example because of how organic and unique each tree will grow, there's tension in the material. Cutting away from this can relieve that tension (both in your benefit and to your deficit). The same can happen with plastics, and I think that's primarily controlled by how the material cools down after being made. I've made a run of wooden discs recently, and out of the 18 I made, I would say that 4 or 5 have some slight curve to them, so that on a flat surface they wobble a bit. I don't see that as a hugely detrimental thing, as I've seen some absolutely taco'd discs that people still throw well.
h y p o t h e t i c a l l y
Was that a sneak peek at a new approach disc hypothetically?
I think the “mold specific mystique” of the injection molding will never be out done. Idk maybe it’s bc I’m older but you come to love the little “mistakes” that occur as a result of an “imperfect” process and cherish the ones that fit you best like no other
Watched another video about ProtoFlyte awhile ago, and the only issue is they are very expensive right now because the blanks they use are expensive, and it takes orders of magnitude longer to CNC a disc than to injection mold one.
...save some much money on R&D! 7:15
And to your point at the end of the video...zero waste! Regrind.
Love your work Jesse!
Notice the dumpy fade. Curious how the lack of certain stresses in the disc present in normal injection molding but absent here, affect the flight
I'm jealous you just crushed that hole! That's my home course, and I might have gotten a birdie once so far, I think lol! Love your content!
2:52 I have an opto jade and a christmas gold jade, and one of them is so absolutely domey, while the opto one is so much flatter.
Love the Inner core, stoked for a Zone/Harp type disc from y'all. If you can make it in super soft plastic I'm all in for it being my approach putter.
can those shavings just be re melted to new blank blocks?
Yeah, I’m pretty sure they get their blanks from Gateway and then send back the shavings.
Was trying to buy a starter set today. It would be wonderful to have an option for a few extra bucks for your sponsored players' discs to be featured in like a 'player pack starter set' or something like that. A J-milly inner core, an Erica Dune, and for now just an O-zone. Would love you support all of you with one purchase!
I thought I recognized the tree in the first shot but confirmed with the sticks. Westcreek.
Google Earth puts that one pin not quite 500 ft. Those are some generous tee signs. I would be interested to see them ranged for accuracy.
I come from the yoyo community and used to run a small company there. One of the first thing I thought when I started playing disc golf is “why is there no CNC machined discs?”.
CNC machining completely took over yoyoing in the early 2000s mainly for it’s ability to make high precision machined metal yoyos but the CNC plastic yoyos also play significantly better than the injection molded counterparts.
Now obviously the step up in performance and quality won’t be as big for disc golf since it’s a more simple design that’s easier to injection mold but the higher quality and consistency is definitely there and that’s not even going into how easy it’s going to be to prototpe the perfect disc everytime.
CNC machining is here to stay and it’ll only be a matter of time until one of the big companies starts doing it.
Just wait until they figure out they can CNC in China for a fraction of the cost without dropping quality.
agree! some folks sayinjg "it bombs" but that's not the point - the point is that it's consistent.
Fascinating stuff Jesse!
$40 is hypothetically way too much money for a frisbee
Yeah man.. I sell some really wild looking multi-colored collectable rubber Vibram discs in that price range, but damn.. $40 for one of these discs seem to be way high.
It is well worth it to support an innovative company like this. I will gladly pick one up with each paycheck for the next few checks I get.
Not if you only need to buy 3 discs instead of 12
The only way you're going to get the price of discs under control is for the PDGA to man up and set a bag limit... There's way too many people at amateur events lugging around 30+ discs. Likewise way too many pros are bagging 5 variations of one mold that are influencing amateurs. Set a very reasonable bag limit (say 20 discs) and suddenly demand will be checked.
The only way you're going to get the price of discs under control is for the PDGA to man up and set a bag limit... There's way too many people at amateur events lugging around 30+ discs. Likewise way too many pros are bagging 5 variations of one mold that are influencing amateurs. Set a very reasonable bag limit (say 20 discs) and suddenly demand will be checked.
So this is gonna be long and nobody needs to read it, but as someone super into disc golf and manufacturing, here are my brainstorm ideas right off the rip, with no respect for what might be reasonable:
* This might open new materials. Obviously, you can make a wood disc, and that’s not very usable, but what about a plastic that might not mold well but can be cut easily on a lathe?
* The software engineer in me wants to completely redefine disc choices with this. PDGA rules aside, there is no reason that someone couldn’t define an equation that changes the shape of the disc based on a user input, meaning instead of having discrete stability stops of the CNC-, CNC, CNC+, you say I want the CNC mold with a .56 stability or whatever scale they decide, and the algorithm just moves the parting line of the model and cuts your personal disc. Add some more variables, make it more complicated, and ask people to input 4 flight numbers, any they want for a disc, and the algorithm creates that geometry, and cuts it. But since we aren’t pulling from discrete models, you could input arbitrary precision numbers perfect for you. I want an 11.45 | 4.65 | -.78 | 2.12 driver, which is ever so slightly different than the other person’s 11 5 -1 2, but if they used my numbers, they get the same every time.
Obviously, there is no perfect model for numbers to disc because we have a lot of discs that fly essentially identical but with very different geometries and feels, but I think a base disc shape that you modify to make a bit more or less stable an amount the user says is totally doable.
Also, why couldn’t people start just designing their own “molds”, and the manufacturer is just that, manufacturing discs that users create. Yeah, I have my own custom designed putter perfect for my hands. Sure, I’ll even sell you the file, or open source it. Now my friends are even making extra on the side as a freelance disc designer. That world sounds crazy.
I suppose I left behind the bullet points in favor of talking about this one idea, and i think this is complete science fiction now. I do think, however, that every company is going to start using a CNC lathe to prototype before paying for a mold, because I feel it is more representative of an injection molded disc than 3D printing.
Apparently I’m not done. Is it possible to do a micro bubble plastic like blizzard or fission on a lathe? You’d need a bubbly block I suppose and that would likely have a weird surface finish, but… maybe?
Also, custom engraved discs? Who needs a sharpie or even stamp for your name and number when they can just add to the design to engrave it in the bottom for you (not super possible on a lathe like a mill, but who’s to say a mill with a spinning table or something doesn’t have advantages… probably not)
Funny enough, I actually thought all discs were made on a CNC before I actually got into the sport, it was surprising to me when I found out how they’re normally made. But I definitely love the idea of this
Knew it was gonna be about protoflyte. I really hope this takes off
Hypothetically this is awesome
Smart person here, the centrifugal force of the rotary along with the friction caused by the knife change the plasticity of the plastic you are using. This can lead to the disc having inconsistencies in the circumference.
I just made this up idfk
I mentioned this process to Dave Dunipace when the PDGA had a message board about 20 years ago and he said waste would be the biggest problem.
They also changed the shape and angle of the inside of the rim. Or what about an “on-the-go” CNC machine that could cut custom discs in the fly?
From my conversations with ProtoFlyte, one of the coolest/unique things about the discs is the ability to fine tune the flight plate thickness. As manufacturing is not reliant on the flight plate to distribute molten plastic into the outer edges of a mold, as seen in traditional IM. This also has the same effect as MVP’s gyro tech.
2:13 In the spirit: "Buy Fuse!!!"
Dude I love the concept of cnc I think you could make chunks of recycled plastic mill them down shavings are recycled
00:39 🔥🔥🔥!!
so like in 10 years could you have a machine at the course that could make a disc you needed or even change one up like a more domey buzzz or a river top with a diamond bottom? would be so awesome. No need to keep stock on hand so maybe that could help with the price.
Would say depending on the set up and machine and tooling used you could produce the most constant disc and more easily modify without the cost of molds and mold maintainence. With softer plastics and uncontrollable variables of material and tooling flex while machining plastics. idk if a cnc disc is the way for consumer markets to thrive. Do believe it is a great idea in theory
the waste can re used into blanks to turn more discs from
I'm curious to see how the eventually balance out the durability with the machinability of the plastics they use. more machinable plastics tend to be less durable from a disc golf perspective.(out of the several types i can think of off the top of my head)
What are the drawbacks compared to injection molding?
I thought this was a really great video. Normally I put these in the background, but I actually watched this one. CNC disc really made me want to try them and pick up the triple pack. But, then I saw the price and I'm not quite sold. Kind of breaks down to about $35 a disc, which I guess is okay, but I still prefer it to be a little cheaper. Sweet video though
if we took our molds, hypothetically, and pushed them together in minecraft, hypothetically
Super cool tech 😎
I'd be curious to know if they can get consistency CNCing the same disc from different runs of the base mold from gateway. If they can, then problem solved. If not, then this is just a fantastic way to rapid prototype with the same variability of discs between plastic runs.
how well do they stand up against tree's?
you forgot to give me the disc, hypothetically
Do they CNC from a frisbee blank? Do they save the removed materials to make more blanks? If so, could you essentially create a plastic "sour dough" of polymers for a special blend with a small bit of every disc ever made at that location within every future disc? If so, they should call it the CNC Infinity. PAtent pending
Any word on another et 2 run? I need more of em😅
Sounds like we’ll get to a point where I can send in a disc that flies exactly how I want it to, and someone could CNC copy it so I have replicas as backups.
They could even add in the scuffs and dents.
@@Munchylego to be fair, as long as you can properly render the imaging, that’s not out of the realm of possibility.
So i wonder if they might age differently do to the production? Can the blank molding be modified so they change less with age? I bet that can be improved, even if you cant avoid it completely.
OMG as if I needed another overstable approach disc, you gotta make a sustainable one?! 🤣 My wallet can only take so much abuse! 😅 This video makes me want to ask so many questions! I guess I'll just ask the biggest one on my mind - did the ProtoFlyte folks say anything about the potential to replicate discs that already exist? There are several molds I've thrown over the years that aren't made anymore, or molds whose shape has changed over the years due to either the mold itself being retooled, or the plastics and process changing (and not always for the better - LOOKING AT YOU, FLAT TOPPED COMETS 🤬). It'd be so amazing to be able to 3d scan a disc, have it translated to gcode or whatever, like happens with 3d scanned objects in 3d printing, and be able to consistently have a disc that matches a shape that's no longer in production...
I love the CNCi. Super comfy to hold. I'm not good enough to notice, but pro players could also get custom sets now too.
Very true! Also thought about this. Pros sponsored by them could get custom discs made so easily
Ahhh ye old WestCreek ❤
Did the disc have machining marks on the surface? Or was it sanded smooth?
Machining metal may be more consistent than injection molding plastic, but machining plastic may not be. It will depend on the quality of the blank- which has to be manufactured before it can be machined. I would imagine the blank might still be injection molded.
And like you mentioned at the end, machining a disc will take longer than molding one, so the mfg cost could be challenging.
It is cool that CNC is trying it. 👍🏽
Mass production of a particular disc mold will *always* be more efficient by injection molding.
The only advantage in CNC production is if you’re only making a single disc or a very small batch.
This won’t change.
I can imagine TP having a CNC machine to assist in the development of a new mold. CNC a disc of a proposed design and see how it flies. But then make 10,000 of them using injection molding.
Incorrect. The only advantage is not just for cheaper prototyping. You completely missed the concept of having infinitely uniform discs. This means 15 years from now you can still produce an identical flying disc as you did on the first day, with zero variability in those 15 years. Meanwhile a disc like the Firebird has probably had three dozen different flight variations.
Is it made from recyclables discs
Yeah. C N C is the future. They allow for personal sizing
So injection mold into a blank disc and carve it out. Recycle the waste to make more? Or does that negate some of the benefits?
I could not find and option on their website to select color and weight.
If I'm paying a premium price for a disc that I should be able to select color and, especially, weight.
Ive been curious, does a disc golf company regularly do a 30 piece study with either laser scanning or a CMM? I would love to see a comparison between injection and milling using laser scanning to color map the deviations and the total percent deviation of each over a 30 part study.
hypothetically speaking of course... please offer that new proto non putter/approach disc with and without a bead.
I wonder what the implications are with patents on this? Like the destroyer patent is a “mold” right? Could you technically make a destroyer CAD file and sell that? Or could you modify it very slightly so it is basically the same, but different enough to be legal?
There are no patents on disc golf specific disc shapes anymore. The ones that existed expired years ago. With the PDGA regs on disc design being standardized, disc golf discs across manufacturers will share shape, features and dimensional sizing quite often.
The variation in manufacturing you mention is variable but statistically small and insignificant (unless it was truly a factory second).
The consistency of this process is also moot since all discs take hits and change over time.
That it! Jesse x Jonathon. Needs to happen. And Johannes,I suppose.
How much? Missed price.
I have the Cnc- and the Cnc-i. They are my bombers
I think that the problem with CNC discs will be the blank chunks discs are lathed from. How do you ensure consistency between chunks, and between batches of plastic?
And then we come to the real kicker: cost! It must take longer than 2 minutes of machine time to make a disc like this.
This would mean a high manufacturing cost, and a lot of wasted plastic that would HAVE to be recycled. And my understanding is that re-grind premium plastic which is molded again tends to be more brittle, and liable to cracking over the medium term. This is why RPM only make mini markers from recycled Strata and Atomic plastics - they don't really stand up well to the abuses golf discs are regularly subjected to.
I like the idea in principle, but unless the discs can be lathed in one whack, and then smoothed completely in another, without demounting it, then cost is going to be big issue. This is confirmed looking at their web site, and prices in the NZD 65.00 range, shows the discs to be very expensive to make. With freight, that is about triple the price of NZ-made premium RPM discs - which are very well made.
I think you are exaggerating the inconsistencies of injection molding. MVP and HoD have very consistent molding, because no humans are involved in the process, which eliminates by far the most common things which affect the shape of the final product.
And, it's also worth mentioning that golf discs are the product which push injection molding technology harder than any other. And the fact that manufacturers have made huge leaps in the last few years. I can see that trend continuing into the future, to the point that there is no market for a CNC made disc.
I certainly can't see myself selling these at my disc golf store. Customers are quite price sensitive. And a disc that costs three times as much would need to be three times as good.
Really this is cool and could be huge for the industry. But the most pressing issue: WHERE CAN I BUY THE HAT??
I broke my hand, and have grip issues, can you CNC a disc to fit my grip better? Or maybe someone else who wears a prosthetic? Can you shape a disc in a way that they could flick a disc better?
Pro looses her bomber CNC on a water carry... No worries the caddie runs to the CNC guy in vendor village who has her disc on file and makes one in the time it takes some pros to putt!
I have a question. Has anyone tested the speed at which a disc changes from an aerodynamic to a ballistic object? In other words, when you throw a putter for approach, it behaves like an aerodynamically. You have lift, drag and gravity acting on it. When you putt with it, if it's a short putt, it acts like a ballistic object. People putt nose-down, nose-up, hyzer and anhyzer, not to mention the turbo putt. At what speed does a putter stop behaving like a wing and become a skipping rock? Thanks.
with the scrapings excess etc why wouldnt they just melt it down and reuse it.. obviously they wouldnt be injecting molding into a disc but you just need a mold thats a solid block anyway
Send them blocks of recycled material for them to use. 👍
What's flashing?
Let’s gooooo!
Tooling wears and the machine needs calibration. I feel like there would still be runs that come out differently as the tooling wears and the machine becomes uncalibrated.
Dope.
Cut down on waste and save time by borrowing from Clashes TONE design.
CNC the rim from an already hollow tube. The CNC wouldn't have to waste all that time drilling out the inside and wasting 50% of the blank material.
Then CNC the flight plate and glue em together, or injection mold the flight plate on.
So if I got this right… the CNC Minus will allow me to unlock 500ft?!
Hypothetically
@@ethanweaver1 sold!
Prototyping a disc using CNC looks like magical solution to development workflows. That said, Jesse, you usually don't miss stuff when creating great content, but I really think you did in this video. These CNC discs are still Injection Molded and come with all the same caveats - they are Gateway "Blanks". If disc manufacturing were ways to cook a steak: Injection = Sous Vide, Compression = Grill, 3D Printed = Stove top . These CNC discs are just Sous Vide finished with a torch. The manufacturing process is still the same, it’s the finishing that's different.
They do not "come with all the same caveats". Specifically, as Jesse mentioned, different levels of disc dome. A CNC'd disc will always be exactly the same shape as any other CNC'd disc provided the blank is consistently larger than the shape it is carved down to. You could make valid arguments about the injection molded blank contributing to different densities in the final CNC'd disc, but regardless they do not have ALL the same caveats.
@@lanepemberton8886 I don't think it was your intention, but you validated why I posted the comment in the first place. That is; 'because Jesse didn't mention it, people will believe this is a 4th way to manufacture discs'. That's not a jab at you, it was truly my point.
I am in no way knocking this process and I am not arguing the benefits of micro adjustments for prototyping or consistency - it's fantastic. If Gateway gets the pelletized polymers, heats and removes the moisture, programs the injection machine to certain specifications which will affect the density, flexibility, tensile strength, durability, grip, etc. Then produce the blanks, the resulting "blank" is still an injected block of plastic... with injection molding caveats. If you were to take a 3D printed disc and remove the texture left from the 3D printing process via CNC, is that now a 5th way to produce discs? No. That is the point I was trying to convey.
The blanks will have time to set before they're machined, so the tolerance issues of injection molding are not carried through the lathing process. But in terms of energy efficiency, yes, the injection + lathing method is worse than injection alone.
You can also control color much better
Did I spot a beaded putter there.... Hello.
Today, but not within the next 5 minutes
So if the cost and production method of these discs is so much more efficient why is the cost of each disc so high ?
Cost and production of prototype discs is cheaper due to not having to create a mold for injection molding process. You simply input the CAD file for the prototype disc and the CNC will cut it out pretty quick. Coincidentally, molds for injection molding are made by a CNC process. Injection molding is faster per disc, but only after designing and manufacturing the molds required, which is relatively expensive especially if the design turns out to fly different than what was desired. You then have to get a mold redesign and remanufacture - that's where it gets REALLY expensive.
The method is cheaper to produce prototypes and one-offs. But when you try to scale to production runs, you're not going to be able to have the same output rate per machine as you would with injection molding.
If these catch on, perhaps we'll see the emergence of a true premium disc market where they can offer value beyond just a special plastic blend.
I like the idea, but doesn't this method create way more plastic waste?
Reductive manufacturing (CNC) lends itself to recycling the "fall off". Just say'in 😉
Anyone that has owned 2 Innova discs, knows that injection molding is inconsistent.
West creek
That's pretty cool!!
Westcreeeeekkk!
I’m not really understanding the hype. Sure it can be more uniform. But I don’t think it’s that big of a deal.
Video starts 2mins in just a heads up
$40 a disc.....Hell to the nah...to the nah nah nah....Hell nah!
I'm glad you mentioned that you can make discs more domey. I dont know why manufacturers WOULDNT make all of their drivers domey
Not everyone wants a straight flight and disc to stand up.
@@cup_and_cone Mhmm ok. Not everyone wants a disc that bombs glides for days?
@@4dwyn Nope, have you ever watched the pros? Every open shot now is always a wide hyzer where the disc never really flips up. They want that overstability for dependable shot consistency because the flight track is repeatable every throw.
I really wish our community had not adopted "parting line height". The underside of the wing is what matters.
Explain