Oh no! When the narcissist goes to therapy, they learn new techniques to weaponize against you. They will start having boundaries that they will put in your face and claim that they "weren't being malicious" when they did something that hurt you badly.
My ex and I did couples therapy twice. In the second round it really became apparent that what she wanted was a referee to point out how bad of a person I was in all of her smug self righteousness. It ended up exposing to me AND the therapist just how far up the spectrum she actually was. 7 months in I asked for a divorce in an unforgettable session with the therapist. Her reaction? Rage. What does that tell you?
My narcissistic partner went to a therapy session, thought he was a guru, and then told me I was the narcissist. I tapped out of the relationship after that.
Oh yeah and I’m the parental alienating one after I begged him to take part in his children’s lives…their whole lives. But I’m alienating. I could just crumble into a pile of lava.
My late narcissistic FIL who saw a therapist most of his life thought everyone else in the family (esp me who saw through his BS and he couldn’t control )should see one because everyone else was the problem.
Mine got a BS in it. But it was prior to narcissism. He self diagnosed as a 'alcoholic model family' minus the alcohol, and cast himself as the hero. I was invisible and scapegoat. he was golden child who occasionally was truthspeaker. He came home a Raging narcissist just like my mother. I never got my brother back. he learned even more lies and fancy ways of hiding things. he was so full of himself and how he had tricked his professors he came home and told me he had 'raised me himself.' he didn't get a job until he was 19. I was waitress at 12. I cooked and cleaned he ran off with his gf. my parents paid money for his college food clothes and dates and gave me nothing. I paid rent to sleep on the living room couch. he had the largest bedroom for free plus student housing from my parents. also the horrible people at my job literally get pointers at our anti harassment lectures. I think therapy sometimes just teaches them more mean tricks.
My last therapist told me "oh y'know, you can try couples' therapy" after I told her how my now ex was abusing me. I asked him (knowing he wouldn't agree), he outright refused (as expected). I dumped him AND fired the therapist. 💅 Therapists who do not understand narc abuse are DANGEROUS.
My sister quit therapy when she had to be called out for her shtt, blamed me for it’s failure on her way out… therapist takes me aside and tells me” your family will never fill your emotional needs” that phrase really resonated
I wish I'd known this several decades ago when my late narc husband went to therapy for "anxiety and depression". I didn't know about, let alone understand narcissism back then. My late narc husband did the whole "my therapist said" gaslighting thing...and I believed him. Despite my caring for him during the last two years of his life he never stopped viewing me as the enemy. He was incapable of expressing love, gratitude or taking responsibility for his cruelty through the years. It sucked! I'm still working on healing from the damage he caused. This video is really helpful. 1) I now understand that it's likely that the therapist did not say all of those derogatory things about me. In addition he did not likely endow on my husband the wonderful wisdom and discerning powers my husband claimed. My husband was gaslighting me. 2) My anger at his therapist has evaporated, The therapist was a victim of my husband's sob stories and manipulation. I am able to have compassion for the therapist and let that go. Thank you for this much needed video Dr. Ramani!
It’s impossible to know but you can guess what they are telling therapists and people in general. It’s all constant effort to prop up their false self at any and all cost! I’m glad you’ve found some peace. ❤
When my ex husband started cheating on me, it was because the therapist said "He needs to focus on things that make him happy." He had just survived Acute Leukemia (cancer), I was there for him, caring for him and in the end I was "too fat to fuck" (Joke on him- Tinder loved me as a single, liberated 30 year old divorced woman. Also found other narcissists but got away from them as soon as the red flags showed (weeks) Thanks to Dr.Ramni, I escaped!)
If they or you go to an enabling therapist, you become the problem to be fixed. 😮😰😖 My former therapists didn't understand toxic relationship dynamics at all, so I fired them.
So true!! They know how to spin everything to make you out to be the bad one. They're great at charming the therapist into believing they are an innocent victim. Ugh..
So Brilliant. Best evolution of the When the Narcissist Goes to Therapy video so far. In my FB group, one woman was genuinely concerned because her narcissist had told her that he had personally called five therapists who confirmed that there was something wrong with her, and had a list of things they said she "needed" to change. I replied this was a bold faced lie. I had managed mental health practices for a decade, and there was no way any therapist would diagnose someone they had never met over the phone. She was shocked that he was capable of this kind of gaslighting, but was so grateful for the clarity. They will do and say anything!
We separated in August. Now he’s on a 3 week intensive therapy retreat. Just yesterday he said the phd’s there are “worlds above” the therapists I’ve been seeing here and that he’s seen a few times. Now he’s armed with lots of new vocabulary and will be transformed soon. I’ll hold my breath! Also he has been eating up all the attention and supply from everyone being concerned for him and helping him with this retreat. It’s top-notch supply!
Oh yes the "my therapist said" is a big weapon. Our therapist told my ex-husband in our joint session "You have a sweet deal" with respect to how little he contributed to the relationship. My husband turned into "No, he told both of us we have a sweet deal".
Our therapist told my ex he had all the control in the relationship. When we were discussing it later he said that it meant he made the most money. The y really are infuriating and will never take responsibility for their horrible behavior.
I have known two people in recent years who made a point to tell me that they were in therapy, and they were on a "path of healing", and they were aware of their issues and committed to doing better. I didn't ask them about therapy, by the way, they brought it up on their own. So it all felt very honest and self-aware at the time. Well, later it became really obvious in both cases that their idea of "healing" is learning to feel better about the ways in which THEY have been hurt or mistreated, while giving absolutely not a single f---- about the ways they hurt or mistreat others. In fact, both would be angry if you tried to address something hurtful they did, no matter how calm you were about it. They'd "reason" that if you were "truly healthy" their ugly behavior wouldn't have bothered you, so the fact that you had even NOTICED what they did proved you were messed up and they were the victim simply by having to deal with someone as horribly messed up as you.
My ex husband came back from therapy with the '7 o'clock rule'. It meant that we couldn't talk about anything of importance after 7 in the evening. Seeing as my ex often didn't get home until 6 or 7 o'clock, I was supposed to bottle up everything that was going on between us. Of all the horrible things he did, this was the most significant in ending our marriage.
@susanparker9877 Hey, it's actually VERY straight forward! 😉 "When others hurt me, that just proves I'm the victim, and I deserve your sympathy and admiration!" "When I hurt you, that just proves I'm the victim, and I deserve your sympathy and admiration!"
Thanks Dr. Ramani for the great topic. This hits home. My ex and I went to marriage counseling before divorce. She continued on with "therapy" after we split. She calls me a year later to tell me that her therapist thinks I have Schizo affective disorder, and despite divorce, she is still concerned about my welfare and hopes I will seek help. I learned the condition exhibits delusions of reality and inability to complete tasks. I realized immediately what was happening in therapy.🖕🖕
it's like mobster who goes to church to do his confession. He will never tell the whole truth nor actually believe in the process, but who enjoys the image boost being seen there and getting to pretend he is a good christian despite his past and ongoing crimes.
I have been dealing with this for the last 2 months since I left my husband. Except for him, the line is "my spiritual teacher said"... thank you so much for your videos. It's very reassuring that I'm not alone in this toxic journey to freedom. ❤
Very true. I am a therapist. For 30 years, 2 therapists and treatment for my ex and co therapy for me (after 15 years his secret porn life was discovered by our son)…..the John Gottman tools, communication, love languages, sitting on the floor to allow him to feel big (he’s 6’3” and I’m 5’3”), his rages and threats of suicide with broken class and blood, had me traumatized and crazed because he could turn it off and on in a second, always I was guided to leave space for this suffering man. I was trauma bonded and had CPTSD from already from 2 narcissistic parents. My ex was familiar. I truly loved him and he was NOT in it to change. He doesn’t love. He uses and abuses, not willing to do his work so he doesn’t have to do what he did to keep supply vs someone genuinely able to cherish him. I’m the lucky one. I wasn’t destroyed by them, and for awhile I questioned that. Go for our loving selves everyone. First and foremost.
Therapist here as well. Ex-Narc used therapy language to hook me. I wish therapist survivors had our own support group, as there's been a whole other level of shame for not recognizing what was going on sooner.
I’ve also seen a emotionally immature man do this, he went to therapy as I suggested but then when we argue say things like ‘I will show my therapist this message exchange’ in a threatening way to prove a point rather than learn together. He would also only tell the therapist the parts that made him look good so naturally the therapist got a very distorted picture and gave advice accordingly.
My mother went to therapy because my brother paid for it. She went to one session, and came back saying she was doing everything right according to her therapist. She was cured already and never needed to go again....
Being with my ex narc for the past 8 yrs. made me observe this very pattern. I think they wanted to feel very important in a way that is disturbing. Instead of building trust with their intimate partners, they destroy the trust that they built with you (in that case lying when they tried to put you in their pedestal). Once they have a committed partner, they can’t stand being loved authentically by one person. Instead they go on and prey on other women that is susceptible to their love bombing. My ex narc was a compulsive pursuer in a relationship. He would go back and forth to the women he were involved before or try to meet women in complicated situation so that going public isn’t an option while having you as their main supply. In the end they destroy the very person that loved them. They are like toddlers testing your love for them. Showing and telling them you love them isn’t enough, they will cheat on your face to make you feel inadequate even if you are more than they deserve. They want to test your love for them so they keep hurting you and when you have enough of their abuse, you leave. Then they tell you, ‘you never loved me because you abandon me’. Well in fact it’s their actions and narcissistic behavior that made you leave or in other cases they discard you and will give silly reasons of the discard. Mine would use, ‘she’s crazy’, ‘she’s a nega-star’, ‘she insults me’, ‘she cheated on me’ et al. So with this pattern of infidelities and emotional abuse (who knows what else) it’s better to walk away. I did walk away and is now rebuilding my life with our daughter. We are struggling financially because I’m not earning enough to provide for my daughter but now we get to laugh and bring with us sunshine every day. No lies, no abuse and no fake love. We only live once, forgive yourself and move forward but never forget the lesson that narc abuse taught you. That is to respect yourself to walk away from what’s hurting and destroying you. That you deserve a life of solitude, happiness and love. Hugs*** :) Additionally I got to know about my narc husband bad ways when I reach out to a private detective digitalinvestigate@gmail. com for help he did a perfect work for me I can see everything he’s doing on his device.
I’m in shock reading all of that because it sounds exactly like the man I was dating for three years. When I finally moved out because I couldn’t take his bullshit anymore he blamed me for abandoning him and now he tries to blackmail me to stay in the tendency agreement so he can keep the apartment. It’s a nightmare. I’m deeply sorry for you and wish you all the best.
Been there with a family member who is a narc. I suggested therapy after she had a "suicide" attempt. A few weeks in she was already using all of those tricks. Much later I started to connect the dots and realized there was no suicide attempt at all. I should have realized sooner, but I was so used to being gaslighted that I doubted myself even when evidence was right in front of my face.
@@robekpl There were a lot of things that didn't make sense, contradictions and persistent strange/toxic behavior. When she told me about the suicide attempt, a lot of the details weren't adding up, there were a lot of contradictions, the timeline of the events wasn't making any sense, the reasoning was odd, then she said it was the first time she had a suicide attempt when she had already told me a few years prior that she had two suicide attempts, so that was very suspicious too. A few months later she admitted she "used to" fake panic attacks and a lot of things started to make sense.
My narc went to therapy as per one of the conditions of our reconciliation. My understanding is that she spent more time talking about being a victim in different areas of her life and not how certain behaviors of hers caused me to almost leave her.
Went to therapy with my ex . He viewed himself as a co therapist trying to fix me so I would realize how wonderful our relationship really was . Finally , after about 4 appointments, she said to him that they were going to focus on his issues for awhile. He told her that he had no issues and never went back again . 20 years later he drunk dials me crying to tell me how grateful he is to me because I " made him the ( wonderful ) man he is today ." Never regretted the divorce ... and he was just drunk dialing to compliment himself 😂
Great video Dr. My husband went to AA and came home telling me how messed up I was . this went on for years so beware to anyone when they go into self help groups then they become gurus that know it all
When my narcissistic ex went to therapy, he gaslit the first one as bad as he gaslit everyone else in the world. He enlisted the second therapist to create a game plan to leave me. In retrospect, I'm grateful, but at the time, I was pretty offended that I paid someone to coach my spouse to leave me instead of working on his many many issues.
Oh yeah, exactly this. Mine started out playing the victim, got their own therapy sessions with MY therapist turned my therapist onto their side, played the I've got arrested development and you can't expect me to be better right away, I'm going thru deep depression. My therapist says....until they dropped out of therapy right after being lightly held to account. Then my therapist got it but I still didn't. For years I still didn't. Painful. Not the move if you can help it. Unless you can walk away from the relationship, don't expect anything good to come from them getting therapy. You'll be pleasantly surprised if something does, but if they are truly narcissistic, that positive change isn't likely to stick without fallout elsewhere.
Strong power word = NO. Don't be afraid to say no! NO is hard to say because it sets boundaries right away and can sometimes cause people to respond with mean things to you that may cause you feel guilt
The narcissist is a shallow shell of a human who will not ever be able to truly care about other people including you and that does not change no matter how much therapy they get In fact from therapy all they do is mostly learn how to manipulate better
"What is sad, is that you believe what you said about me"! That was my husband's reply to my "Farewell-letter" to him, after I left him. Gas-lighting par excellence!
Mine used “I just started therapy” as a hoovering technique and way to get sympathy to avoid taking responsibility for lying and a previous discard. I was beyond confused. That was my breaking point and when I couldn’t make sense of anything. After that I began googling and discovered this channel. Thank you for these videos!
"My therapist said my rage episode (where I called you an attention seeking wh*re and verbally abused you) was a BPD episode." "My therapist told me my need to control is very valid and just who I am and that's just my attachment style" (So you just deal with it - implied meaning).
Anything can be twisted and used against you. I once told my brother, “I struggle with leaving out my dirty dishes and not wanting to clean the kitchen too”, to ease his shame around cleaning up after himself and offer empathy. Today he used it against me to say “you struggle with leaving out your dirty dishes too, why should I have to be the only one reminded to clean the kitchen?” 🙈
I made the mistake of being vulnerable once or twice, during the most enmeshed part of our relationship. The second there was conflict, she used them against me. During the most difficult and positive periods, your needs will become ammunition too. No empathy, all games of dominance.
There needs to be way more accountability for the therapists who are clueless and sucked into this. They do tremendous harm and should not be practicing. This really isn't amusing. Some of these situations turn out to be life-threatening or dangerous to children. There needs to be a real wake-up call for the therapy profession. I've personally encountered far too many toxic therapists exactly because they played into and became flying monkeys for the narcissist.
I definitely agree. On the first session with a family therapist With my daughter and then husband (her stepfather) The therapist scolded me for filing for divorce He had abused both of us for years and was grooming her I was afraid for our lives And she scolded me In front of my daughter
My wifes ex hubby had talked to his therapist about how his ex is not willing to communicate at all (after listening to all he has to say about the divorce and listening to his venting until he had went on for half a year with spamming her 200 msgs about the same things over and over and not being able to talk about their kid without shifting the topic to his feels) When my wife told him to stick to the topic or he will be blocked, he told everyone how his ex is cold and incapable of communication at all and they cannot even talk about the kid (as said, he always shifted the conversation to his feelings about the divorce immediately when there was any response to anything) His therapist then told him to get the communications back, after which he just started spamming insults towards my wife and me and also wished me a miscarriage (after I have had two of them) When confronted about his behavior, he was just giggling how he managed to get the communications back, just like his therapist told him to. He has a legal right to see his kid every other weekend, and he tries to buy the kid with presents and sweets and tried make him afraid of everything and then "bringing the kid safety" just to have some conversations with his ex and then being angry about being called out. I aim to be a woman of peace, but I swear, sometimes the bronze age solutions seem the only right option.
Therapist should be required to take on going classes to learn about Cluster Bs personalities, among other things. They do so much damage to the patient and other family members.
I experienced this from a narcissist who wasn't going to therapy. Not the soft-talking, self-righteous guru stuff, the weaponised gaslighting stuff. Because I have a mental health condition (BPD), which I warned my narc about (and even exaggerated to hammer the point home what they were potentially signing up for) before we got together, and I was on the UK's legendarily long waiting list for therapy while also doing evidence-based self-help, my narcissist "took an interest" in psychology. You can see where this was going... All the time it would be "There are studies..." or "I've read a paper saying..." or even "I've been speaking to experts online, and they said..." and not *ONCE,* when asked or even demanded to produce a source, even to name-drop one title, one author, or show one of these conversations with one of these "experts," there was *always* an excuse. It was always "Not now, maybe later. We need to stay on-topic of what you've done..." or "Go do your own research, I'm not your PA!" or "No, I'm not giving away their [alleged "expert"] details to a dangerous psycho like you...!" As if I can send some kind of bad energy through the Internet that even blocking me wouldn't fix... There were even excuses for excuses, like "You couldn't possibly understand those papers. Your intelligence is about average, but mine's nearly 130. I'm just short of gifted!" No, for real, they actually said that...! Even so, I wasn't asking them to read and translate it, just to show me that it exists. Still never seen one citation in my life.
@@COctagons That’s interesting because they love to be right so you’d think they’d happily give you the information so they can have their “ah ha I told you so moment” but it sounds like homeboy didn’t have squat and just wanted to shame you. I’m sorry you didn’t have a more supportive partner.
Well this might be beside the point but we'll done for warning people ahead of time about the bpd. Last girl I knew with that got very intense, then killed herself. That situation is no joke. I don't believe guys if they say their girl has bpd if they are not noticeably afraid of her.
@@j.l.w9563 Thing is, yes, we *CAN* be scary, or confusing, but there are types of BPD where we aren't prone to externalising, and all the suffering is contained within our own minds, which I've heard called "Quiet BPD." Also, it's a disorder that affects both sexes almost equally, so they might actually be correct. Also, the overwhelming majority of BPD cases are usually asymptomatic within 2 years of DBT, so someone can still qualify as BPD, but not meet all the criteria they did upon diagnosis, and perhaps not as intensely due to being well on the way to recovery and remission.
I wish I had seen this a few years back. My sister seemed to change, even telling me she had blamed me for things that were not my fault. As the therapy effects wore off, she reverted. What she had learned in therapy was how to polish each of her masks to the point where I was amazed. She decided I needed therapy and told everyone I was against it, despite my telling her I had been through and “completed” therapy twice in my life at times of crisis. After finally going no-contact,I have peace. Blessed peace. I still find myself wondering if she is okay, but I do not regret my decision. When I stepped away from the relationship, I saw with clarity how troubled it was.
I can relate. My sister has been in therapy for decades. She learned how to cover her deeds and kept things from me, yet was sabotaging me. She is an expert and managed to shame and quilt me into helping her and giving her money and things. Someone she had known for a long time, and drained financially, warned me about her. After that I came here and learned about narcissism. She fit the bill exactly-"covert narcissist with thrill seeking personality disorder." I could write a book! I went nc. The peace of "letting go" is amazing. I can't believe it took me this many years.
Once again, thank you Dr. Ramani. I had this experience. I stayed for a couple years longer because they were going to therapy and “working on their trauma”
I did one group therapy session with my mother and sister. They were so convinced that the therapist would see everything exactly their way, and were clearly troubled that he didn’t. My sister lost it. The next day, my sister continued with the same antagonistic behavior. I asked her if she heard what the therapist said. She cherry picked the comments, and took them out of context. Later on, my mother questioned the legitimacy of the therapist, if he was licensed, and if he was a Christian.
I have a client who has a lot of narcissistic traits. Doesn't have full blown NPD but there are definitely elevated scales in there, and it's enough that it causes significant problems for this person. Of course, this person is in therapy for other things but trying to get this person to take a good look at themselves is very difficult. They have very little self-awareness. Even giving assignments of existential questions for homework often results in it not getting done. It causes too much cognitive dissonance. Vent and vomit is exactly what they do. These people have such fragile egos.
If a narcissist goes to therapy WITH you, they will gang up on you and manipulate the therapist into ganging up on you, as well. Beware of couples counseling with a narcissist -- you feel hopeful and end up on the losing end.
When I went with my husband I had already been abused for years, and my anger showed very close to the surface. He put on a boo hoo self pity bit, cried and had that lady convinced that I was abusing HIM
@lechatchateau6941 - Agree. The lies to the therapist were astounding and right in front of me. Oddly, one of the reasons I had chosen this therapist to help us (begged him to come, one last shot and he knew it) was because I met her as a speaker at a multi-track VICTIMS RIGHTS conference that I had help put on in the 90’s. I knew nothing about NPD or the NPD spectrum at that time and apparently, neither did she. I was truly shocked, confused and heartbroken that she bought his schtick - hook line and sinker. Eventually (after 20 years of marriage), I gave up and filed for divorce. It remains one of the most frightening and courageous things I have ever done in my life. One day he confessed that he had lied to the counselor, I guess his form of being vulnerable? It took me 30 more years to come across Dr. Ramani and have a tremendous mental health awakening for which I will ALWAYS be grateful.
Yep. Same. We went to couples therapy because I’d discovered he had been cheating our entire marriage. Somehow, we left that session with me needing to work on how I express frustration when I couldn’t find something in order to leave the house (like one of my shoes was missing). Because *that* was the issue in our marriage? Went back to the same therapist (omg why) years later and after several sessions of him taking up 40 minutes reciting his calendar since the last session, I said (not shouted) something to the effect that I found it frustrating that he was wasting session after session on his daily agenda and did none of the things she asked him to do in the interim… she told me I could be very cruel. What. The. F.
My vulnerable narcissist husband was in therapy for 4 years and nothing, NOTHING changed. He just paid her to whine about me and his life, he even lied to her to make himself look like the victim. Glad he’s out of my life.
People with NPD and ASPD do go to therapy but not neccesarily to fix their personality disorder or understand better how their behavior negatively impacts you but to deal with other "inner demons"
My ex narcissistic partner was actually a therapist, LCSW. The mind games and manipulation were next level. I had to deal with all the behaviors and patterns of a narcissist and the psychological cross-examination of a therapist.
Yep,they don't change.. They might become slightly better at pretending to be normal humans. "My therapist said" is also very real - the narcissist said that we should have sex, because the therapist said it's an important part of a healthy relationship. What the narcissist most likely did not mention to the therapist was that he was acting out and sleeping with other women... Many therapists also don't understand narcissism, and to be honest the narcissists are so brilliant at deception that they fool the therapist too.
The soft talking! Oh my goodness! It’s so manipulative, pretentious, and it’s driving me around the bend! I made the mistake of saying, “What honey? I can’t hear you. Have you noticed that lately you’ve been speaking really quietly?” Big error! He got a whiff of how it annoys me and now it’s even worse. I. Cannot. Wait. To. Be. Able. To. Get. Out.
I love this video so much bc it demonstrates so very clearly how completely ridiculous these humans are. I was laughing hard at the soft empathic voice and the rubber band analogy specifically. I would love more videos in this style. Poking fun at the absolute mind numbing fuckery really makes me feel better. I’m a nurse and sometimes I just stand there in the hallway at work with a very similar feeling of “Wow, I don’t think this situation can possibly get more out of control and chaotic….and then the lady down the hall starts throwing poo while calling you a b$&?ch and you think “well, yep that fits” and you just have to shake your head and keep on going. You can’t go down there and confront her bc you know you are the one that will end up with sh$t on your face, not her. Can you get more narcissistic than a person who throws their own poo at other people? A gross but totally accurate analogy I think. Loved the tone of this video. I’m looking forward to more.
سأل أحدهم جبران خليل جبران. ما هو أكثر شيء مدهش في البشر؟ فأجاب: "البشر يملّون من الطفولة، يسارعون ليكبروا ، ثم يتوقون إلى أن يعودوا أطفالاً ثانيةً، يضيّعون صحتهم ليجمعوا المال، ثم يصرفونه ليستعيدوا الصحة. يفكرون بالمستقبل بقلق، وينسَون الحاضر ، فلا يعيشون الحاضر ولا المستقبل. يعيشون كما لو أنهم لن يموتوا أبداً، ويموتون كما لو أنهم لم يعيشوا أبداً." Khalil Gibran †
مازلت أؤمن: بأن الإنسان لا يموت دفعة واحدة، وإنما يموت بطريقة الأجزاء كلما رحل صديق مات جزء وكلما غادر حبيب مات جزء وكلما قتل حلم من أحلامنا، مات جزء، فيأتي الموت الأكبر ليجد الأجزاء ميتة فيحملها و يرحل. - كاتب أمريكي من أصل لبناني مسيحي، جبران خليل جبران †
My therapist told me all the problems caused by my narcissist abuser 's lying smear campaign ,which destroyed my 30 yr nursing career because I followed protocol and wouldn't cover up her drug errors, would be solved by thinking of 3 happy things per day, eg I enjoyed breakfast ( hello, couldn't afford food !!!!) because I was " choosing to be unhappy ". Wow. Just wow. If I wrote what I really want to say I'll get banned.
Thank you Dr. We just left counseling with one of our children who we suspect of being a NARC. Most of what you describe was actually taking place during the counseling. We realized that the counselor was not skilled enough to "see" what we as a family were experiencing. We tried to subtlety point to a direction which we felt the counselor might want to look then flat out said what we thought but when we did she said "thats not my assessment". We are at a loss as to how to bring our family back together again. After 2 years of dealing with this issue my wife and I are exhausted and beat down. We are DONE. We know we as a family will never be the same after losing our loved one to this disorder.
100%. My wife didnt even go to therapy but some mandatory work place seminar on mental health for the work place, and she comes back announcing she's done the work and changed and gotten better while weaponizing what she learned to criticize me. And just as the dr ramini said, the impulses, patterns all come back. Luckily ive seen different forms of it before to temper my expectations; no accountability or follow thru; weird kind of laziness in trying cut corners or sweep a task under just so its "done". But forget about bringing it up. Anyway, idk how but eventually i must go my own way.
I kinda think the words “I’ve done the work” are a red flag. What is “the work” exactly? It just seems like a thing people are saying but it lacks any self reflection, just a whole lot of “hurt people, hurt people so there and I’m perfect and I’m the real victim and I’m gonna keep yelling and demanding you answer my calls so I can yell at you more and tell everyone how you yell at me” 😂😂
My Ndad went to therapy demanding that I go with him (hard pass). He signed a med auth and the therapist invited me to a session and I politely declined but said I would be willing to meet with her so she has an understanding of other perspectives of my Ndad. Surprisingly, that happened and it turns out Ndad shared significantly revised histories that omitted MAJOR pieces of information. She confronted him with this during their next appointment, the mask fell completely off, he lashed out at her and she told him to leave me alone and then fired him. So yeah, that backfired on him…not so great for the narcissist but damn that was a validating experience for me.
When my narcissist mother and her sociopath second husband went to “couple’s therapy”, suddenly I was on “antidepressants” for “anger based depression”, even though I had never met the woman. The very first time I met her, she put me on Deseryl, which is actually a sleeping pill. Apparently, my selfish, spoiled behavior was the root of their problems.
You know what would be really good building on this? You should do a video about how to recognize narcissists within your own field. My mother blames me for the fact she never become a counselor, I think-- which helps me a lot, as it gives meaning to my own suffering in so far as I feel like it might have saved other people's lives....
TRUE! Dear Doc this relates to the "power" that my Ex had as he went to therapy twice: The first time was because I left him, and he used it to "hoover" me back. After a couple of months he dropped it because he thought he really didn't need it anymore since I was there again! NO selfreflektion. The second time years later as I left forever, he was transformed into a Guru and praised about his new insights and how he could now meditate to meet "the child inside himself". Of course I should take the whole blame because I was wrong about his low boundaries toward his patients. He had used them from the beginning of our relationship to triangulate and at that time I was not aware that he was a Narc., so he tried to convince me that he was just being honest telling me about how great some of them were. The problem was that they wrote him love letters and asked him to date and he treated them for years. NO boundaries. Always needy and willing to get more supply!😞
Be the person who breaks the cycle. If you were judged, choose understanding. If you were rejected, choose acceptance. If you were shamed, choose compassion. Be the person you needed when you were hurting, not the person who hurt you. Vow to be better than what broke you-to heal instead of becoming bitter so you can act from your heart, not your pain.
Please I beg everyone to like your comment. Also, the caveat to being this way is having the pain and hurt to burden as we are usually "USED" and thrown away like trash a lot and very few people will understand and learn from us because it stops with us. It's not easy being this person but I always find peace. The time varies on that peace.
Huh?! This is kind of baffling in terms of dealing with narcissists. What you actually need to do is learn when to turn off all the empathy because people are using it to suck you dry. Before you continue with all the acceptance, understanding, compassion, blah, blah, blah, you have to learn to recognize and get rid of the predatory.
Most Therapists will target the person willing to change or make adjustments, which is never the narcissist. That therapist completely failed and the narcissist is encouraged in their abusiveness
When my abuser/mother was reported to social services for abuse she constantly brought up the fact that she spent £500 on therapy afterwards to make me feel guilt 🤣
My ex(covert narc) would constantly use the fact that she's been in therapy most of her life! She would also complain about how she had to keep changing therapists and kept trying to say mine was wrong about stuff, even when I got my autism diagnosis ex's first reaction was "you can't be autistic because you aren't like my uncle/cousin who are autistic" and are ironically very different types of autistic so like… what? My therapist is awesome and I've been with her for 8 years now. Ex never stuck with one for more than a couple years. I have a theory that she switched every time they started calling her on being obviously the problem or talking a things she could improve. She also admitted that she's lied to therapists but said it was "never anything that would affect how they see her"? I'm 100% sure she was just going in there to have her victim bs validated.
A narcissist is a very CUNNING beast. Going to therapy is another manipulation tactic, which in turn damages their victims trust in getting mental health assistance. Nasty behavior. Dr. R you are an angel amongst demons. I am BEYOND grateful my therapist told me about you.
We went to therapy after I caught him cheating for the 3rd time and after we were thousands of dollars in, I realized he was manipulating the therapist. She didn’t understand what I was going through. I couldn’t take it anymore he wouldn’t do any of the work and would blame everything on me. One day I just canceled the appointment and I never went back and after I did that he told everyone we were in therapy and I wouldn’t go through with it. I was devastated.
I LAUGHED ALL THE WAY THROUGH THIS VIDEO!! I have experienced every sentence you mentioned here, Dr Ramini. Every single one!! He also added, "Well, my therapist has been in practice for 30 years; yours for only 8." "She really gets me, " and "My therapist really calls me out and holds me accountable until I admit what point she is trying to make." But I never even imagined that he was telling me 'truths' about his life that the therapist summed up for him on how we wronged him. Not until today. Thanks again!!❤❤
You can't win in an arena you didn't want to fight in. You are healthy and this wasn't for validation it was to love someone without so much drama. Little do you know that you've been engaged in combat from the beginning.
I feel like Dr. Ramani is stalking me... How does she always seem to know exactly what I'm dealing with right now?! Word for word, it's what I'm seeing. It's eerie!
I'm realizing how I prolonged my pain so much by believing they can change. If you believe they can change, just wait. They will put out every ember of hope you have. I was also desensitized to the craziness, were I considered her to be doing better, but in reality it was still toxic. She also used therapy as a license to be more condescending and grandiose. Eventually you will be totally convinced that all they can offer is abuse, gaslighting, manipulation. They need a scapegoat, they hope to eventually slaughter the scapegoat before it escapes. By Gods grace I did, i was granted discernment. Truly tormented, vile , pitiful souls they are, they are tormented, therefore they torment.
I totally agree Dr Ramani, you helped me so much, your advice gave me back my self esteem. There is another dangerous angle. They use their direct line to God to silence you.
“My therapist said he thinks playing out our fantasies where you sleep with other men while I watch will save our marriage.” I wish I was making this up… 17 years of marriage and after an affair he was grooming me to be with other men. 😳
My covert narcissist ed wife came back from therapy blaming me for all her actions and constantly had to tell me her therapist stated she was the victim of everything. She became much more abusive.
This happened to me twice in marriages and now I understand the mechanism. Thank you. I knew it wasn’t all my own fault and to the best of my ability I went into couples counseling with an open mind, but the overwhelming blaming of me never stopped or even slowed. I do have a better understanding now of how I got into those narcissistic traps and aim to be more discerning of the other going forward.
Therapy as a “vent and vomit” had me laugh. Yep. 100%. It just goes to show that not everyone who has the therapist degree deserves it if they can be manipulated by a narcissist. If they can be sucked in, then the common person (me) shouldn’t feel so bad….
I was in a relationship with a covert vulnerable narcissist who had been in therapy for anxiety for years. In my experience, he only became more skilled at his manipulation. It took a long time to realize the depth of his narcissism and break free from the cycle of abuse!
I would really like to see more on here to address mid range narcissists and situations where partners are really great 80% (thoughtful, generous, warm) of the time and horrible the other 20%. It makes it much harder to sort through or even stay angry at them. too many references to cheating. My ex would never cheat, doesn't lie, is very committed. His issues are lack of empathy and rage and criticism and gaslighting. Your talks are always amazing Dr. Ramani and I am so grateful. I also know the pressure you are under to keep creating new content so maybe this will give some ideas.
My narcissist fooled every therapist…played them to think he’s this charming man (he’s got female therapists)… they believed anything he told them. And he played me out, by pretending to the therapist, that I was the nagging wife, who wouldn’t leave him alone in therapy! He constantly begged me to go with him, hold his hands etc… It was all a ploy, to make me look too invested in him 🥵 Now we’re separated and I’m glad it’s over…. Thank you, Dr Ramani - you’ve helped me so much during the past few months of the marriage, so I survived 🙏♥️
My best friend's gf went to therapy and then sat him down and told him "my therapist says you're a narcissist" She has the dude under the sole of her shoes and then has the audacity to tell him he's a narcissist! And then suggested they went to couples counseling with her therapist because she didn't feel comfortable talking to a new one. They ambushed the dude! Some people know exactly what to say to turn the therapist on their side
Yep, my narcissist spouse started therapy 3 months ago for "childhood issues" but mainly for validation that they are the poor victim. The therapist has definitely emboldened them even telling them that the severe trauma they caused their child was just normal parental mistakes. Despite the fact that 4 other therapist said that their behavior was abusive and extremely damaging to the child they believe their therapist is right because they were led to their therapist and she is just amazing. I don't find therapist who embolden one's bad behaviors amazing, they should lose their license!
This video was so funny but the reality can be pretty twisted to experience. Not to put too fine a point on it but as a person who’s worked in mental health I can’t stand the cluelessness of a non-trivial percentage of “therapists” I have known over the years. “Patients with keys” is the joke we had at the hospital, and I’m sure it’s the joke across our entire field. And when narcissists *are* the master manipulators that they are, even a pretty good therapist can take a while to tease out the depth of what’s going on. A clueless therapist will be putty in their hands. An eventual flying monkey of the most enabling kind.
"Emotional independence" is important because it enables you to seperate your current emotional state from the negative behaviors of others, guiding you to a more firmly structured and fulfilling life. This independence involves; comprehending and managing your emotions effectively.
Dr Ramani : You have described my story in full. My friend and second my Ex/suspendend partner.Especially this second one.When she were in middle of it - hell broke loose...
Oh no! When the narcissist goes to therapy, they learn new techniques to weaponize against you. They will start having boundaries that they will put in your face and claim that they "weren't being malicious" when they did something that hurt you badly.
That's what my mom does........... It's not "negative, derogatory." Yet there's no real other way to take it when, where and how it was said.
JESUS! So true. I still regret the day I invited him to join couples therapy... it was the first and last time.
@@thethreadedtarot777 same here
They get better at being Narky.
My ex and I did couples therapy twice. In the second round it really became apparent that what she wanted was a referee to point out how bad of a person I was in all of her smug self righteousness. It ended up exposing to me AND the therapist just how far up the spectrum she actually was. 7 months in I asked for a divorce in an unforgettable session with the therapist. Her reaction? Rage. What does that tell you?
My narcissistic partner went to a therapy session, thought he was a guru, and then told me I was the narcissist. I tapped out of the relationship after that.
Oh yeah and I’m the parental alienating one after I begged him to take part in his children’s lives…their whole lives. But I’m alienating. I could just crumble into a pile of lava.
My late narcissistic FIL who saw a therapist most of his life thought everyone else in the family (esp me who saw through his BS and he couldn’t control )should see one because everyone else was the problem.
they also use therapy to find someone else guilty for what they do, so it's not their responsability, it's the mother's :)))))
Yep, I was told I'm the narcissist by my ex 😂😂 sigh, ah well
@@hannah51238 me too, but it's great when they have some flying monkeys to confirm this, ofcourse with no arguments, just the label
My brother took ONE psychology course at the local college when he was going for sciences. He learned how to be a better narcissist.
Exactly!
Mine got a BS in it. But it was prior to narcissism. He self diagnosed as a 'alcoholic model family' minus the alcohol, and cast himself as the hero. I was invisible and scapegoat. he was golden child who occasionally was truthspeaker. He came home a Raging narcissist just like my mother. I never got my brother back. he learned even more lies and fancy ways of hiding things. he was so full of himself and how he had tricked his professors he came home and told me he had 'raised me himself.' he didn't get a job until he was 19. I was waitress at 12. I cooked and cleaned he ran off with his gf. my parents paid money for his college food clothes and dates and gave me nothing. I paid rent to sleep on the living room couch. he had the largest bedroom for free plus student housing from my parents.
also the horrible people at my job literally get pointers at our anti harassment lectures. I think therapy sometimes just teaches them more mean tricks.
@@user-wi9hv2pb2q He already was a narcissist to begin with. You just didn't see it. It sucks to have a brother like him.
that sucks
EXACTLY THIS!!
And when the narcissist IS a therapist, even more complicated and defeating.
Yes, 💯
And the flying monkeys are the worst; people typically see the therapist as the legitimate one.
All of a sudden, radical acceptance (and possibly no contact) feels like a much better option than urging a narc family member to go to therapy.
My last therapist told me "oh y'know, you can try couples' therapy" after I told her how my now ex was abusing me. I asked him (knowing he wouldn't agree), he outright refused (as expected). I dumped him AND fired the therapist. 💅
Therapists who do not understand narc abuse are DANGEROUS.
And cheaper!
My sister quit therapy when she had to be called out for her shtt, blamed me for it’s failure on her way out… therapist takes me aside and tells me” your family will never fill your emotional needs” that phrase really resonated
I wish I'd known this several decades ago when my late narc husband went to therapy for "anxiety and depression". I didn't know about, let alone understand narcissism back then.
My late narc husband did the whole "my therapist said" gaslighting thing...and I believed him.
Despite my caring for him during the last two years of his life he never stopped viewing me as the enemy. He was incapable of expressing love, gratitude or taking responsibility for his cruelty through the years. It sucked! I'm still working on healing from the damage he caused.
This video is really helpful.
1) I now understand that it's likely that the therapist did not say all of those derogatory things about me. In addition he did not likely endow on my husband the wonderful wisdom and discerning powers my husband claimed. My husband was gaslighting me.
2) My anger at his therapist has evaporated, The therapist was a victim of my husband's sob stories and manipulation. I am able to have compassion for the therapist and let that go.
Thank you for this much needed video Dr. Ramani!
It’s impossible to know but you can guess what they are telling therapists and people in general. It’s all constant effort to prop up their false self at any and all cost! I’m glad you’ve found some peace. ❤
I’m sending you a hug for going through this. I had a similar experience. We will heal and thrive. 💐
When my ex husband started cheating on me, it was because the therapist said "He needs to focus on things that make him happy." He had just survived Acute Leukemia (cancer), I was there for him, caring for him and in the end I was "too fat to fuck" (Joke on him- Tinder loved me as a single, liberated 30 year old divorced woman. Also found other narcissists but got away from them as soon as the red flags showed (weeks) Thanks to Dr.Ramni, I escaped!)
If they or you go to an enabling therapist, you become the problem to be fixed. 😮😰😖
My former therapists didn't understand toxic relationship dynamics at all, so I fired them.
So true!! They know how to spin everything to make you out to be the bad one. They're great at charming the therapist into believing they are an innocent victim. Ugh..
So Brilliant. Best evolution of the When the Narcissist Goes to Therapy video so far. In my FB group, one woman was genuinely concerned because her narcissist had told her that he had personally called five therapists who confirmed that there was something wrong with her, and had a list of things they said she "needed" to change. I replied this was a bold faced lie. I had managed mental health practices for a decade, and there was no way any therapist would diagnose someone they had never met over the phone. She was shocked that he was capable of this kind of gaslighting, but was so grateful for the clarity. They will do and say anything!
We separated in August. Now he’s on a 3 week intensive therapy retreat. Just yesterday he said the phd’s there are “worlds above” the therapists I’ve been seeing here and that he’s seen a few times. Now he’s armed with lots of new vocabulary and will be transformed soon. I’ll hold my breath!
Also he has been eating up all the attention and supply from everyone being concerned for him and helping him with this retreat. It’s top-notch supply!
Keep strong and away from the narcissist.
That is a nightmare scenario. I’m so sorry. ❤
But you’re the one that wanted him to go to therapy, right?
Oh yes the "my therapist said" is a big weapon. Our therapist told my ex-husband in our joint session "You have a sweet deal" with respect to how little he contributed to the relationship. My husband turned into "No, he told both of us we have a sweet deal".
I once saw a bumper sticker that said, "I told my therapist about you". 🤔
Our therapist told my ex he had all the control in the relationship. When we were discussing it later he said that it meant he made the most money. The y really are infuriating and will never take responsibility for their horrible behavior.
I have known two people in recent years who made a point to tell me that they were in therapy, and they were on a "path of healing", and they were aware of their issues and committed to doing better. I didn't ask them about therapy, by the way, they brought it up on their own. So it all felt very honest and self-aware at the time.
Well, later it became really obvious in both cases that their idea of "healing" is learning to feel better about the ways in which THEY have been hurt or mistreated, while giving absolutely not a single f---- about the ways they hurt or mistreat others. In fact, both would be angry if you tried to address something hurtful they did, no matter how calm you were about it. They'd "reason" that if you were "truly healthy" their ugly behavior wouldn't have bothered you, so the fact that you had even NOTICED what they did proved you were messed up and they were the victim simply by having to deal with someone as horribly messed up as you.
Yes! Exactly
Oh my God, what contorted thinking.
My ex husband came back from therapy with the '7 o'clock rule'. It meant that we couldn't talk about anything of importance after 7 in the evening. Seeing as my ex often didn't get home until 6 or 7 o'clock, I was supposed to bottle up everything that was going on between us. Of all the horrible things he did, this was the most significant in ending our marriage.
@susanparker9877 Hey, it's actually VERY straight forward! 😉
"When others hurt me, that just proves I'm the victim, and I deserve your sympathy and admiration!"
"When I hurt you, that just proves I'm the victim, and I deserve your sympathy and admiration!"
Thanks Dr. Ramani for the great topic. This hits home. My ex and I went to marriage counseling before divorce. She continued on with "therapy" after we split. She calls me a year later to tell me that her therapist thinks I have Schizo affective disorder, and despite divorce, she is still concerned about my welfare and hopes I will seek help. I learned the condition exhibits delusions of reality and inability to complete tasks. I realized immediately what was happening in therapy.🖕🖕
Yes, this my sister went into therapy, she came out worse than she went in. Only now knows all the tricks to be a more effective narc..
😢
YESSSS!!!!!! Thank you so much for addressing this problem!!!👍❤❤❤
The best is when you actually ARE a therapist & they decide they know more than you!
it's like mobster who goes to church to do his confession. He will never tell the whole truth nor actually believe in the process, but who enjoys the image boost being seen there and getting to pretend he is a good christian despite his past and ongoing crimes.
I have been dealing with this for the last 2 months since I left my husband. Except for him, the line is "my spiritual teacher said"... thank you so much for your videos. It's very reassuring that I'm not alone in this toxic journey to freedom. ❤
Very true. I am a therapist. For 30 years, 2 therapists and treatment for my ex and co therapy for me (after 15 years his secret porn life was discovered by our son)…..the John Gottman tools, communication, love languages, sitting on the floor to allow him to feel big (he’s 6’3” and I’m 5’3”), his rages and threats of suicide with broken class and blood, had me traumatized and crazed because he could turn it off and on in a second, always I was guided to leave space for this suffering man.
I was trauma bonded and had CPTSD from already from 2 narcissistic parents. My ex was familiar. I truly loved him and he was NOT in it to change. He doesn’t love. He uses and abuses, not willing to do his work so he doesn’t have to do what he did to keep supply vs someone genuinely able to cherish him. I’m the lucky one. I wasn’t destroyed by them, and for awhile I questioned that. Go for our loving selves everyone. First and foremost.
I could have written this. I'm sorry this happened to you.
Therapist here as well. Ex-Narc used therapy language to hook me. I wish therapist survivors had our own support group, as there's been a whole other level of shame for not recognizing what was going on sooner.
I’ve also seen a emotionally immature man do this, he went to therapy as I suggested but then when we argue say things like ‘I will show my therapist this message exchange’ in a threatening way to prove a point rather than learn together. He would also only tell the therapist the parts that made him look good so naturally the therapist got a very distorted picture and gave advice accordingly.
My mother went to therapy because my brother paid for it. She went to one session, and came back saying she was doing everything right according to her therapist. She was cured already and never needed to go again....
Being with my ex narc for the past 8 yrs. made me observe this very pattern. I think they wanted to feel very important in a way that is disturbing. Instead of building trust with their intimate partners, they destroy the trust that they built with you (in that case lying when they tried to put you in their pedestal). Once they have a committed partner, they can’t stand being loved authentically by one person. Instead they go on and prey on other women that is susceptible to their love bombing. My ex narc was a compulsive pursuer in a relationship. He would go back and forth to the women he were involved before or try to meet women in complicated situation so that going public isn’t an option while having you as their main supply. In the end they destroy the very person that loved them. They are like toddlers testing your love for them. Showing and telling them you love them isn’t enough, they will cheat on your face to make you feel inadequate even if you are more than they deserve. They want to test your love for them so they keep hurting you and when you have enough of their abuse, you leave. Then they tell you, ‘you never loved me because you abandon me’. Well in fact it’s their actions and narcissistic behavior that made you leave or in other cases they discard you and will give silly reasons of the discard. Mine would use, ‘she’s crazy’, ‘she’s a nega-star’, ‘she insults me’, ‘she cheated on me’ et al. So with this pattern of infidelities and emotional abuse (who knows what else) it’s better to walk away. I did walk away and is now rebuilding my life with our daughter. We are struggling financially because I’m not earning enough to provide for my daughter but now we get to laugh and bring with us sunshine every day. No lies, no abuse and no fake love. We only live once, forgive yourself and move forward but never forget the lesson that narc abuse taught you. That is to respect yourself to walk away from what’s hurting and destroying you. That you deserve a life of solitude, happiness and love. Hugs*** :) Additionally I got to know about my narc husband bad ways when I reach out to a private detective digitalinvestigate@gmail. com for help he did a perfect work for me I can see everything he’s doing on his device.
I’m in shock reading all of that because it sounds exactly like the man I was dating for three years. When I finally moved out because I couldn’t take his bullshit anymore he blamed me for abandoning him and now he tries to blackmail me to stay in the tendency agreement so he can keep the apartment. It’s a nightmare.
I’m deeply sorry for you and wish you all the best.
Been there with a family member who is a narc. I suggested therapy after she had a "suicide" attempt. A few weeks in she was already using all of those tricks. Much later I started to connect the dots and realized there was no suicide attempt at all. I should have realized sooner, but I was so used to being gaslighted that I doubted myself even when evidence was right in front of my face.
how did you learn there had been no suicide attempt?
@@robekpl There were a lot of things that didn't make sense, contradictions and persistent strange/toxic behavior. When she told me about the suicide attempt, a lot of the details weren't adding up, there were a lot of contradictions, the timeline of the events wasn't making any sense, the reasoning was odd, then she said it was the first time she had a suicide attempt when she had already told me a few years prior that she had two suicide attempts, so that was very suspicious too. A few months later she admitted she "used to" fake panic attacks and a lot of things started to make sense.
This one is precious Dr.Ramani ! ❤
The injustice of the narcissistic relationships hits me harder the more I learn about them.
My narc went to therapy as per one of the conditions of our reconciliation. My understanding is that she spent more time talking about being a victim in different areas of her life and not how certain behaviors of hers caused me to almost leave her.
Went to therapy with my ex . He viewed himself as a co therapist trying to fix me so I would realize how wonderful our relationship really was . Finally , after about 4 appointments, she said to him that they were going to focus on his issues for awhile. He told her that he had no issues and never went back again .
20 years later he drunk dials me crying to tell me how grateful he is to me because I " made him the ( wonderful ) man he is today ."
Never regretted the divorce ... and he was just drunk dialing to compliment himself 😂
Oh wow it's lunacy no doubt. 😮
Drunk dialing to compliment himself! 🤣🤣🤣
My experience with cluster b & therapy, are two main points; they learned better how to hide; they learned better how to be abusive.
Great video Dr. My husband went to AA and came home telling me how messed up I was . this went on for years so beware to anyone when they go into self help groups then they become gurus that know it all
Did he show narcissistic traits before AA, or did it start after AA?
Before, during and after. I believe drinking is something they do to try to regulate themselves along with other addictions
@@TAnderson-s1ithat makes a lot of sense!
When my narcissistic ex went to therapy, he gaslit the first one as bad as he gaslit everyone else in the world. He enlisted the second therapist to create a game plan to leave me. In retrospect, I'm grateful, but at the time, I was pretty offended that I paid someone to coach my spouse to leave me instead of working on his many many issues.
😂😂😂the part where you said “ let’s talk about the trash cans “ impression had me laughing 😂😂😂
Oh yeah, exactly this. Mine started out playing the victim, got their own therapy sessions with MY therapist turned my therapist onto their side, played the I've got arrested development and you can't expect me to be better right away, I'm going thru deep depression. My therapist says....until they dropped out of therapy right after being lightly held to account. Then my therapist got it but I still didn't. For years I still didn't. Painful. Not the move if you can help it. Unless you can walk away from the relationship, don't expect anything good to come from them getting therapy. You'll be pleasantly surprised if something does, but if they are truly narcissistic, that positive change isn't likely to stick without fallout elsewhere.
They lie to the therapist, too.....and seem to find a misanthropic therapist....
Strong power word = NO. Don't be afraid to say no! NO is hard to say because it sets boundaries right away and can sometimes cause people to respond with mean things to you that may cause you feel guilt
aimentalhealthadvisor AI fixes this. North Carolina retreat November 2024.
my narc said: "my therapist said, everything is ok with me", implying that I'm the one with the mental problems... thanks for that. 😞
Typical of them to blame you and twist things. Don't let it get to you.
They feel "better" and "deserving".
The narcissist is a shallow shell of a human who will not ever be able to truly care about other people including you and that does not change no matter how much therapy they get In fact from therapy all they do is mostly learn how to manipulate better
"What is sad, is that you believe what you said about me"! That was my husband's reply to my "Farewell-letter" to him, after I left him. Gas-lighting par excellence!
Mine used “I just started therapy” as a hoovering technique and way to get sympathy to avoid taking responsibility for lying and a previous discard. I was beyond confused. That was my breaking point and when I couldn’t make sense of anything. After that I began googling and discovered this channel. Thank you for these videos!
Same thing happened to me
"My therapist said my rage episode (where I called you an attention seeking wh*re and verbally abused you) was a BPD episode."
"My therapist told me my need to control is very valid and just who I am and that's just my attachment style" (So you just deal with it - implied meaning).
Anything can be twisted and used against you. I once told my brother, “I struggle with leaving out my dirty dishes and not wanting to clean the kitchen too”, to ease his shame around cleaning up after himself and offer empathy. Today he used it against me to say “you struggle with leaving out your dirty dishes too, why should I have to be the only one reminded to clean the kitchen?” 🙈
I made the mistake of being vulnerable once or twice, during the most enmeshed part of our relationship. The second there was conflict, she used them against me. During the most difficult and positive periods, your needs will become ammunition too. No empathy, all games of dominance.
There needs to be way more accountability for the therapists who are clueless and sucked into this. They do tremendous harm and should not be practicing. This really isn't amusing. Some of these situations turn out to be life-threatening or dangerous to children. There needs to be a real wake-up call for the therapy profession. I've personally encountered far too many toxic therapists exactly because they played into and became flying monkeys for the narcissist.
I definitely agree.
On the first session with a family therapist
With my daughter and then husband (her stepfather)
The therapist scolded me for filing for divorce
He had abused both of us for years and was grooming her
I was afraid for our lives
And she scolded me
In front of my daughter
@@mahnamahna3252 that's really effed up. I'm really sorry this therapist did that to you.
My wifes ex hubby had talked to his therapist about how his ex is not willing to communicate at all (after listening to all he has to say about the divorce and listening to his venting until he had went on for half a year with spamming her 200 msgs about the same things over and over and not being able to talk about their kid without shifting the topic to his feels)
When my wife told him to stick to the topic or he will be blocked, he told everyone how his ex is cold and incapable of communication at all and they cannot even talk about the kid (as said, he always shifted the conversation to his feelings about the divorce immediately when there was any response to anything)
His therapist then told him to get the communications back, after which he just started spamming insults towards my wife and me and also wished me a miscarriage (after I have had two of them)
When confronted about his behavior, he was just giggling how he managed to get the communications back, just like his therapist told him to.
He has a legal right to see his kid every other weekend, and he tries to buy the kid with presents and sweets and tried make him afraid of everything and then "bringing the kid safety" just to have some conversations with his ex and then being angry about being called out.
I aim to be a woman of peace, but I swear, sometimes the bronze age solutions seem the only right option.
Therapist should be required to take on going classes to learn about Cluster Bs personalities, among other things. They do so much damage to the patient and other family members.
Many therapists are Narcs us disguise so would t do a bit of good
Wow! Another impactful video. Thanks for sharing.
I experienced this from a narcissist who wasn't going to therapy. Not the soft-talking, self-righteous guru stuff, the weaponised gaslighting stuff. Because I have a mental health condition (BPD), which I warned my narc about (and even exaggerated to hammer the point home what they were potentially signing up for) before we got together, and I was on the UK's legendarily long waiting list for therapy while also doing evidence-based self-help, my narcissist "took an interest" in psychology. You can see where this was going... All the time it would be "There are studies..." or "I've read a paper saying..." or even "I've been speaking to experts online, and they said..." and not *ONCE,* when asked or even demanded to produce a source, even to name-drop one title, one author, or show one of these conversations with one of these "experts," there was *always* an excuse. It was always "Not now, maybe later. We need to stay on-topic of what you've done..." or "Go do your own research, I'm not your PA!" or "No, I'm not giving away their [alleged "expert"] details to a dangerous psycho like you...!" As if I can send some kind of bad energy through the Internet that even blocking me wouldn't fix... There were even excuses for excuses, like "You couldn't possibly understand those papers. Your intelligence is about average, but mine's nearly 130. I'm just short of gifted!" No, for real, they actually said that...! Even so, I wasn't asking them to read and translate it, just to show me that it exists. Still never seen one citation in my life.
@@COctagons That’s interesting because they love to be right so you’d think they’d happily give you the information so they can have their “ah ha I told you so moment” but it sounds like homeboy didn’t have squat and just wanted to shame you. I’m sorry you didn’t have a more supportive partner.
Well this might be beside the point but we'll done for warning people ahead of time about the bpd. Last girl I knew with that got very intense, then killed herself. That situation is no joke.
I don't believe guys if they say their girl has bpd if they are not noticeably afraid of her.
@@j.l.w9563 Thing is, yes, we *CAN* be scary, or confusing, but there are types of BPD where we aren't prone to externalising, and all the suffering is contained within our own minds, which I've heard called "Quiet BPD." Also, it's a disorder that affects both sexes almost equally, so they might actually be correct. Also, the overwhelming majority of BPD cases are usually asymptomatic within 2 years of DBT, so someone can still qualify as BPD, but not meet all the criteria they did upon diagnosis, and perhaps not as intensely due to being well on the way to recovery and remission.
I wish I had seen this a few years back. My sister seemed to change, even telling me she had blamed me for things that were not my fault. As the therapy effects wore off, she reverted. What she had learned in therapy was how to polish each of her masks to the point where I was amazed. She decided I needed therapy and told everyone I was against it, despite my telling her I had been through and “completed” therapy twice in my life at times of crisis. After finally going no-contact,I have peace. Blessed peace. I still find myself wondering if she is okay, but I do not regret my decision. When I stepped away from the relationship, I saw with clarity how troubled it was.
I can relate. My sister has been in therapy for decades. She learned how to cover her deeds and kept things from me, yet was sabotaging me. She is an expert and managed to shame and quilt me into helping her and giving her money and things. Someone she had known for a long time, and drained financially, warned me about her. After that I came here and learned about narcissism. She fit the bill exactly-"covert narcissist with thrill seeking personality disorder." I could write a book! I went nc. The peace of "letting go" is amazing. I can't believe it took me this many years.
YES!!! We have been waiting for this video! 🎉 spot on and refreshing, thank you for the insight and validation as always! Cheers 🥂
Once again, thank you Dr. Ramani. I had this experience. I stayed for a couple years longer because they were going to therapy and “working on their trauma”
my dad had mandatory therapy and it made him worse. he accuses everyone around him of being a narcissist now.
the soft talking is something he does. it seriously triggers me
is your father well to do, or in some sort of penal colony?
One of the traits of the narc is blame-shifting.
I did one group therapy session with my mother and sister. They were so convinced that the therapist would see everything exactly their way, and were clearly troubled that he didn’t. My sister lost it.
The next day, my sister continued with the same antagonistic behavior. I asked her if she heard what the therapist said. She cherry picked the comments, and took them out of context.
Later on, my mother questioned the legitimacy of the therapist, if he was licensed, and if he was a Christian.
I have a client who has a lot of narcissistic traits. Doesn't have full blown NPD but there are definitely elevated scales in there, and it's enough that it causes significant problems for this person. Of course, this person is in therapy for other things but trying to get this person to take a good look at themselves is very difficult. They have very little self-awareness. Even giving assignments of existential questions for homework often results in it not getting done. It causes too much cognitive dissonance. Vent and vomit is exactly what they do. These people have such fragile egos.
If a narcissist goes to therapy WITH you, they will gang up on you and manipulate the therapist into ganging up on you, as well. Beware of couples counseling with a narcissist -- you feel hopeful and end up on the losing end.
When I went with my husband I had already been abused for years, and my anger showed very close to the surface. He put on a boo hoo self pity bit, cried and had that lady convinced that I was abusing HIM
@lechatchateau6941 - Agree. The lies to the therapist were astounding and right in front of me. Oddly, one of the reasons I had chosen this therapist to help us (begged him to come, one last shot and he knew it) was because I met her as a speaker at a multi-track VICTIMS RIGHTS conference that I had help put on in the 90’s. I knew nothing about NPD or the NPD spectrum at that time and apparently, neither did she. I was truly shocked, confused and heartbroken that she bought his schtick - hook line and sinker. Eventually (after 20 years of marriage), I gave up and filed for divorce. It remains one of the most frightening and courageous things I have ever done in my life. One day he confessed that he had lied to the counselor, I guess his form of being vulnerable? It took me 30 more years to come across Dr. Ramani and have a tremendous mental health awakening for which I will ALWAYS be grateful.
Same here
Wow, you were there as I was! Yes, I was blamed for Everything!!!
Yep. Same. We went to couples therapy because I’d discovered he had been cheating our entire marriage. Somehow, we left that session with me needing to work on how I express frustration when I couldn’t find something in order to leave the house (like one of my shoes was missing). Because *that* was the issue in our marriage?
Went back to the same therapist (omg why) years later and after several sessions of him taking up 40 minutes reciting his calendar since the last session, I said (not shouted) something to the effect that I found it frustrating that he was wasting session after session on his daily agenda and did none of the things she asked him to do in the interim… she told me I could be very cruel. What. The. F.
My vulnerable narcissist husband was in therapy for 4 years and nothing, NOTHING changed. He just paid her to whine about me and his life, he even lied to her to make himself look like the victim. Glad he’s out of my life.
People with NPD and ASPD do go to therapy but not neccesarily to fix their personality disorder or understand better how their behavior negatively impacts you but to deal with other "inner demons"
My ex narcissistic partner was actually a therapist, LCSW. The mind games and manipulation were next level. I had to deal with all the behaviors and patterns of a narcissist and the psychological cross-examination of a therapist.
Yep,they don't change.. They might become slightly better at pretending to be normal humans. "My therapist said" is also very real - the narcissist said that we should have sex, because the therapist said it's an important part of a healthy relationship. What the narcissist most likely did not mention to the therapist was that he was acting out and sleeping with other women... Many therapists also don't understand narcissism, and to be honest the narcissists are so brilliant at deception that they fool the therapist too.
Bless you, Ramani. Thank you for doing the work you do. ❤
The soft talking! Oh my goodness! It’s so manipulative, pretentious, and it’s driving me around the bend! I made the mistake of saying, “What honey? I can’t hear you. Have you noticed that lately you’ve been speaking really quietly?” Big error! He got a whiff of how it annoys me and now it’s even worse. I. Cannot. Wait. To. Be. Able. To. Get. Out.
I love this video so much bc it demonstrates so very clearly how completely ridiculous these humans are. I was laughing hard at the soft empathic voice and the rubber band analogy specifically. I would love more videos in this style. Poking fun at the absolute mind numbing fuckery really makes me feel better. I’m a nurse and sometimes I just stand there in the hallway at work with a very similar feeling of “Wow, I don’t think this situation can possibly get more out of control and chaotic….and then the lady down the hall starts throwing poo while calling you a b$&?ch and you think “well, yep that fits” and you just have to shake your head and keep on going. You can’t go down there and confront her bc you know you are the one that will end up with sh$t on your face, not her. Can you get more narcissistic than a person who throws their own poo at other people? A gross but totally accurate analogy I think. Loved the tone of this video. I’m looking forward to more.
I accept that the f word is necessary in some situations 😂
“My therapist says….” = narcissist always lie. Glad I could clarify.
سأل أحدهم جبران خليل جبران. ما هو أكثر شيء مدهش في البشر؟ فأجاب: "البشر يملّون من الطفولة، يسارعون ليكبروا ، ثم يتوقون إلى أن يعودوا أطفالاً ثانيةً، يضيّعون صحتهم ليجمعوا المال، ثم يصرفونه ليستعيدوا الصحة. يفكرون بالمستقبل بقلق، وينسَون الحاضر ، فلا يعيشون الحاضر ولا المستقبل. يعيشون كما لو أنهم لن يموتوا أبداً، ويموتون كما لو أنهم لم يعيشوا أبداً." Khalil Gibran †
مازلت أؤمن: بأن الإنسان لا يموت دفعة واحدة، وإنما يموت بطريقة الأجزاء كلما رحل صديق مات جزء وكلما غادر حبيب مات جزء وكلما قتل حلم من أحلامنا، مات جزء، فيأتي الموت الأكبر ليجد الأجزاء ميتة فيحملها و يرحل. - كاتب أمريكي من أصل لبناني مسيحي، جبران خليل جبران †
Your humour was off the charts! Good info.I have had these experiences at times with a friend.
This is huge. Thank you so much.
They go home with you and then they use EVERTHING you just shared in therapy, and reenact that very trama, and say what did I do?
My therapist told me all the problems caused by my narcissist abuser 's lying smear campaign ,which destroyed my 30 yr nursing career because I followed protocol and wouldn't cover up her drug errors, would be solved by thinking of 3 happy things per day, eg I enjoyed breakfast ( hello, couldn't afford food !!!!) because I was " choosing to be unhappy ". Wow. Just wow. If I wrote what I really want to say I'll get banned.
Thank you Dr. We just left counseling with one of our children who we suspect of being a NARC. Most of what you describe was actually taking place during the counseling. We realized that the counselor was not skilled enough to "see" what we as a family were experiencing. We tried to subtlety point to a direction which we felt the counselor might want to look then flat out said what we thought but when we did she said "thats not my assessment". We are at a loss as to how to bring our family back together again. After 2 years of dealing with this issue my wife and I are exhausted and beat down. We are DONE. We know we as a family will never be the same after losing our loved one to this disorder.
100%. My wife didnt even go to therapy but some mandatory work place seminar on mental health for the work place, and she comes back announcing she's done the work and changed and gotten better while weaponizing what she learned to criticize me. And just as the dr ramini said, the impulses, patterns all come back. Luckily ive seen different forms of it before to temper my expectations; no accountability or follow thru; weird kind of laziness in trying cut corners or sweep a task under just so its "done". But forget about bringing it up. Anyway, idk how but eventually i must go my own way.
yup
I kinda think the words “I’ve done the work” are a red flag. What is “the work” exactly? It just seems like a thing people are saying but it lacks any self reflection, just a whole lot of “hurt people, hurt people so there and I’m perfect and I’m the real victim and I’m gonna keep yelling and demanding you answer my calls so I can yell at you more and tell everyone how you yell at me” 😂😂
My Ndad went to therapy demanding that I go with him (hard pass). He signed a med auth and the therapist invited me to a session and I politely declined but said I would be willing to meet with her so she has an understanding of other perspectives of my Ndad. Surprisingly, that happened and it turns out Ndad shared significantly revised histories that omitted MAJOR pieces of information. She confronted him with this during their next appointment, the mask fell completely off, he lashed out at her and she told him to leave me alone and then fired him. So yeah, that backfired on him…not so great for the narcissist but damn that was a validating experience for me.
When my narcissist mother and her sociopath second husband went to “couple’s therapy”, suddenly I was on “antidepressants” for “anger based depression”, even though I had never met the woman. The very first time I met her, she put me on Deseryl, which is actually a sleeping pill. Apparently, my selfish, spoiled behavior was the root of their problems.
You know what would be really good building on this? You should do a video about how to recognize narcissists within your own field. My mother blames me for the fact she never become a counselor, I think-- which helps me a lot, as it gives meaning to my own suffering in so far as I feel like it might have saved other people's lives....
TRUE! Dear Doc this relates to the "power" that my Ex had as he went to therapy twice: The first time was because I left him, and he used it to "hoover" me back.
After a couple of months he dropped it because he thought he really didn't need it anymore since I was there again! NO selfreflektion.
The second time years later as I left forever, he was transformed into a Guru and praised about his new insights and how he could now meditate to meet "the child inside himself". Of course I should take the whole blame because I was wrong about his low boundaries toward his patients. He had used them from the beginning of our relationship to triangulate and at that time I was not aware that he was a Narc., so he tried to convince me that he was just being honest telling me about how great some of them were.
The problem was that they wrote him love letters and asked him to date and he treated them for years.
NO boundaries. Always needy and willing to get more supply!😞
Be the person who breaks the cycle. If you were judged, choose understanding. If you were rejected, choose acceptance. If you were shamed, choose compassion. Be the person you needed when you were hurting, not the person who hurt you. Vow to be better than what broke you-to heal instead of becoming bitter so you can act from your heart, not your pain.
And get out
@@anthonystevens-gm6uhlol that part there. Be a better person, far away.
Please I beg everyone to like your comment. Also, the caveat to being this way is having the pain and hurt to burden as we are usually "USED" and thrown away like trash a lot and very few people will understand and learn from us because it stops with us. It's not easy being this person but I always find peace. The time varies on that peace.
Huh?! This is kind of baffling in terms of dealing with narcissists. What you actually need to do is learn when to turn off all the empathy because people are using it to suck you dry. Before you continue with all the acceptance, understanding, compassion, blah, blah, blah, you have to learn to recognize and get rid of the predatory.
This sounds like a narc posted it. Instead of feeling hurt, consider the discard as a gift. You’re free. Go about your life and DON’T LOOK BACK!
Super fantastic. Thank You Dr. Ramani.
Most Therapists will target the person willing to change or make adjustments, which is never the narcissist. That therapist completely failed and the narcissist is encouraged in their abusiveness
I’m my case, I’m dealing with someone who has their doctorate in social work which makes them so much more manipulative
When my abuser/mother was reported to social services for abuse she constantly brought up the fact that she spent £500 on therapy afterwards to make me feel guilt 🤣
Lol
My ex(covert narc) would constantly use the fact that she's been in therapy most of her life! She would also complain about how she had to keep changing therapists and kept trying to say mine was wrong about stuff, even when I got my autism diagnosis ex's first reaction was "you can't be autistic because you aren't like my uncle/cousin who are autistic" and are ironically very different types of autistic so like… what? My therapist is awesome and I've been with her for 8 years now. Ex never stuck with one for more than a couple years. I have a theory that she switched every time they started calling her on being obviously the problem or talking a things she could improve. She also admitted that she's lied to therapists but said it was "never anything that would affect how they see her"? I'm 100% sure she was just going in there to have her victim bs validated.
A narcissist is a very CUNNING beast. Going to therapy is another manipulation tactic, which in turn damages their victims trust in getting mental health assistance. Nasty behavior. Dr. R you are an angel amongst demons. I am BEYOND grateful my therapist told me about you.
We went to therapy after I caught him cheating for the 3rd time and after we were thousands of dollars in, I realized he was manipulating the therapist. She didn’t understand what I was going through. I couldn’t take it anymore he wouldn’t do any of the work and would blame everything on me. One day I just canceled the appointment and I never went back and after I did that he told everyone we were in therapy and I wouldn’t go through with it. I was devastated.
“I know therapy things you don’t 😂” Dr. Ramani is the bomb!! Hold on to seat when the narc becomes a follower of a personal empowerment guru 🤷♀️🤦♀️
I LAUGHED ALL THE WAY THROUGH THIS VIDEO!! I have experienced every sentence you mentioned here, Dr Ramini. Every single one!! He also added, "Well, my therapist has been in practice for 30 years; yours for only 8." "She really gets me, " and "My therapist really calls me out and holds me accountable until I admit what point she is trying to make." But I never even imagined that he was telling me 'truths' about his life that the therapist summed up for him on how we wronged him. Not until today. Thanks again!!❤❤
You can't win in an arena you didn't want to fight in. You are healthy and this wasn't for validation it was to love someone without so much drama. Little do you know that you've been engaged in combat from the beginning.
I feel like Dr. Ramani is stalking me... How does she always seem to know exactly what I'm dealing with right now?! Word for word, it's what I'm seeing. It's eerie!
Spot on dr Ramani. And be especially careful when the therapist is the narcissist’s subordinate in any way, shape or form !
I'm realizing how I prolonged my pain so much by believing they can change.
If you believe they can change, just wait. They will put out every ember of hope you have.
I was also desensitized to the craziness, were I considered her to be doing better, but in reality it was still toxic. She also used therapy as a license to be more condescending and grandiose. Eventually you will be totally convinced that all they can offer is abuse, gaslighting, manipulation. They need a scapegoat, they hope to eventually slaughter the scapegoat before it escapes. By Gods grace I did, i was granted discernment. Truly tormented, vile , pitiful souls they are, they are tormented, therefore they torment.
I totally agree Dr Ramani, you helped me so much, your advice gave me back my self esteem. There is another dangerous angle.
They use their direct line to God to silence you.
“My therapist said he thinks playing out our fantasies where you sleep with other men while I watch will save our marriage.” I wish I was making this up… 17 years of marriage and after an affair he was grooming me to be with other men. 😳
My covert narcissist ed wife came back from therapy blaming me for all her actions and constantly had to tell me her therapist stated she was the victim of everything. She became much more abusive.
they are allergic to truth and accountability.
Getting so close to your North Carolina Healing Retreat!!!❤❤❤
This happened to me twice in marriages and now I understand the mechanism. Thank you. I knew it wasn’t all my own fault and to the best of my ability I went into couples counseling with an open mind, but the overwhelming blaming of me never stopped or even slowed. I do have a better understanding now of how I got into those narcissistic traps and aim to be more discerning of the other going forward.
Therapy as a “vent and vomit” had me laugh. Yep. 100%. It just goes to show that not everyone who has the therapist degree deserves it if they can be manipulated by a narcissist. If they can be sucked in, then the common person (me) shouldn’t feel so bad….
I was in a relationship with a covert vulnerable narcissist who had been in therapy for anxiety for years. In my experience, he only became more skilled at his manipulation. It took a long time to realize the depth of his narcissism and break free from the cycle of abuse!
I would really like to see more on here to address mid range narcissists and situations where partners are really great 80% (thoughtful, generous, warm) of the time and horrible the other 20%. It makes it much harder to sort through or even stay angry at them. too many references to cheating. My ex would never cheat, doesn't lie, is very committed. His issues are lack of empathy and rage and criticism and gaslighting. Your talks are always amazing Dr. Ramani and I am so grateful. I also know the pressure you are under to keep creating new content so maybe this will give some ideas.
My narcissist fooled every therapist…played them to think he’s this charming man (he’s got female therapists)… they believed anything he told them. And he played me out, by pretending to the therapist, that I was the nagging wife, who wouldn’t leave him alone in therapy!
He constantly begged me to go with him, hold his hands etc… It was all a ploy, to make me look too invested in him 🥵
Now we’re separated and I’m glad it’s over….
Thank you, Dr Ramani - you’ve helped me so much during the past few months of the marriage, so I survived 🙏♥️
My best friend's gf went to therapy and then sat him down and told him "my therapist says you're a narcissist"
She has the dude under the sole of her shoes and then has the audacity to tell him he's a narcissist!
And then suggested they went to couples counseling with her therapist because she didn't feel comfortable talking to a new one.
They ambushed the dude!
Some people know exactly what to say to turn the therapist on their side
Thank you, Dr. Ramani💖
Yep, my narcissist spouse started therapy 3 months ago for "childhood issues" but mainly for validation that they are the poor victim. The therapist has definitely emboldened them even telling them that the severe trauma they caused their child was just normal parental mistakes. Despite the fact that 4 other therapist said that their behavior was abusive and extremely damaging to the child they believe their therapist is right because they were led to their therapist and she is just amazing. I don't find therapist who embolden one's bad behaviors amazing, they should lose their license!
This video was so funny but the reality can be pretty twisted to experience. Not to put too fine a point on it but as a person who’s worked in mental health I can’t stand the cluelessness of a non-trivial percentage of “therapists” I have known over the years. “Patients with keys” is the joke we had at the hospital, and I’m sure it’s the joke across our entire field. And when narcissists *are* the master manipulators that they are, even a pretty good therapist can take a while to tease out the depth of what’s going on. A clueless therapist will be putty in their hands. An eventual flying monkey of the most enabling kind.
"Emotional independence" is important because it enables you to seperate your current emotional state from the negative behaviors of others, guiding you to a more firmly structured and fulfilling life. This independence involves; comprehending and managing your emotions effectively.
While they are in the therapists office - run away....
Dr Ramani : You have described my story in full. My friend and second my Ex/suspendend partner.Especially this second one.When she were in middle of it - hell broke loose...