KATY PERRY VS. FLAME LAWSUIT: Let's Compare!
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- Опубліковано 29 лип 2019
- In this episode we discuss and compare the songs Dark Horse by Katy Perry and Joyful Noise by Flame. The lawsuit was decided against Katy Perry and I will examine the similarities and differences between the two songs.
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So what you're saying is that Katy Perry needs a better lawyer :o/
No she has the best money can buy I'm sure. She and these other songwriters were failed by the jury and a system that allows musically uneducated jurors to make these decisions.
Katy Perry needs a dose of honesty and humility.
Neils400 ~ She's so rich that she probably doesn't care. To her it's probably about as irritating as a mosquito bite. Plus she knows it gives her more publicity, which she doesn't need, but oh well.
@@jimyost2585 The problem isn't that Katy lost the trial. It's that this now sets a precedent in the music industry. If 1 similarity can cost an artist up to 3 million then less reputable studios may decide to push lawsuits to earn more cash if one of their songs is older because it's worked before on this trial
You'd be shocked at how much common sense is thrown out the window in actual trials, and what a jury is instructed/demanded to work with. This case sets a horrible precedent that will affect all future infringement cases.
Instead of demonetizing you her team should have been hiring you for the suit 😂
Agreed!!!
Amen to that!
But jurors are musical profanes.
It’s not so much about how good in music a musical expert is in court, it s about how much he can grab the jurors attention and make them trust him over the other.
The actual truth is superficial to the discourse and it’s it’s brought into light.
Basically, Rick would probably destroy the other musical expert in terms of actual musical know how, but light lose out on charisme and experience in testifying in multiple lawsuits in the past:
my thoughts exactly
Katy Perry and their team aren't the brightest bulb in the room. That L was compliments of Karma.
The fundamental error in the court system is having a group of 12 random people who have NO expertise making judgements that could (and often do) drastically harm people. If the judge isn't smart enough to examine the evidence and make a determination, then what is the judge for? If they must have a jury, let the courts HIRE twelve professionals you understand how logic works and how law works and basically, twelve very intelligent people with NORMAL psychological profiles so that there is as little bias as possible.
So you seem sure they didn't have a clue... I'm curious how you found that out😐😑
This suit is like comparing DNA...I know there's someone in the world that looks a lot like me because we share some DNA patterns. But we're still unique human beings.
Yep!!! That's pretty much it. I heard both songs, and honestly, I find very few nuances between the two.
More like you look nothing alike save a single hair on your head
But are we unique?
You should sue that person if you were born earlier.
DNA is intentional art?😐😑😒
I think the jury just couldn't take listening to the two songs anymore… uncle!
Lol
Uncle?
@Phil Weatherley it means he's giving up, he can't stand to listen anymore. Google "say uncle"
@Phil Weatherley C'mon, Phil, saying, "uncle" is an old saying, meaning, "I give up". Guess you're not that old.
Right! 😂
There's only so many notes in a scale. Popular music is bound to repeat sequences that sound good. But we live in a world where Cardi B wants to copyright a bird call.
lmao true. What the fuck does she want to do with the copyrighted *EEEOOOW* or *OKURRRR* 💀🤦🏽♂️
Hey! Don't forget Kanye West trying to copyright the E minor chord!
@@kevinsegurar yeah ikr
@@kevinsegurar HA!
Yeah even though cardi b stole the okur. Thing from the drag queen community. Laganja estranja to be exact
Did you willingly demonetize yourself on this video just to give us the examples? That's public service!
notkaiho speaking of things bad for music industry. “Oh that song is in 1% of your video?? Hmm, I’ll just all 100% thanks.”
The industry is screwing itself and good riddance.
He probably was paid enough by Katy Perry team.
No. He is engaging in quotation of the work for criticism/news.
When John Fogerty got sued for plagiarizing himself I knew the music industry was in trouble.
Favorite music history :)
rageforthemachine what happened??
@@erxfav3197 Fogerty had a song on his 1985 solo album Centerfield called The Old Man Down The Road. At the time he was feuding with his old record company, and they sued him because they claimed that song was too similar to the CCR song Run Through The Jungle, a song Fogerty also wrote, but his old record company owned the rights to. So Fogerty was being sued because supposedly one song he wrote sounded like another song that he wrote. He won the lawsuit, but only because he was able to show they weren't that musically similar.
@@rageforthemachine "He won the lawsuit, but only because he was able to show they weren't that musically similar." I thought Fogerty won the lawsuit Fogerty v Fantasy because two John Fogerty songs might sound similar since they're variations of the same "swamp rock style" but don't meet the criteria for copyright infringement because as the judge of the case ultimately said... "You can't plagiarize yourself."
Your piano is tuned in exactly the same keys as mine...careful!
Hey, Iv been writing songs on piano first, check yourself
Does your song have 3 chords? ....... careful now ...
Legend
Hahaha this comment is everything 😂
😂
I'm surprised Chuck Berry didn't sue just about every guitarist after him, for using all his licks and riffs.
Beach Boys had to list him as a cowriter on a song (I think it was surfin USA) and he got some serious pennies, and rightly so! You're right it's in LOADS of songs - that lick.
Even more surprise: T-Bone Walker could have sued Berry for every lick played.
Guitar players back then stole their licks from sax players...
@@granthambeard Of course that song is basically a copy with different words.
"Promised Land" is a song lyric written by Chuck Berry to the melody of "Wabash Cannonball", an American folk song. The song was first recorded in this version by Chuck Berry in 1964 for his album St. Louis to Liverpool. Released in December, 1964, it was Berry's first single issued following his prison term for a Mann Act conviction. The record peaked at #16 in the Billboard charts on January 16, 1965.
Your guitar makes same sounds as mine. Destroy it before sue you
Lol
@Colby Dipsen the man said your guitar sounds like mine destroy it before I sue you! Sure there's spelling errors just deduce what he was trying to say
Musicologist Todd Becker has a new career: scamming the music world for copyright trolls.
For someone who has made a career in the field of music, Todd Becker sure knows how to ruin it for everybody.
Something I would like to see is court testimony by "expert witness" musicologists being subject to academic peer review and published in a musicological journal. That way fellow musicologists will be able to hold their peers in this profession accountable for the things they say in court. So if someone makes a lot of claims that are unsupported by the facts and evidence, they will get really bad peer reviews by others in their profession. This will be grounds to exclude them from being expert witnesses in future music copyright cases.
@@photios4779 So what do we want to be left with? No expert witnesses allowed to even utter an opinion deemed, rightly or not, as too unsupported by facts and evidence? I guess for every question the expert gets asked they must consult the other experts so that they know what they are supposed to say (because apparently even experts are too dumb to figure it out on their own, when not under the supervision of the rest of the group). There are reasonable measures we can take regarding expertise, but you can only delay independent thought; at some point, sooner or later, a person will have to be let off their leash and potentially diverge from the majority on some detail or set of details. If you are unwilling to draw the line somewhere, then you have eliminated every possible opportunity for actual thought, and you essentially turn your human experts into bots controlled by a "smart" algorithm.
The point of the use of expert testimony is not to reshape a fundamental aspect of discourse, or else to somehow control everything and "guarantee" correctness. That is incredibly naïve about the capability of humans to have that kind of handle on reality; we try our best, but we are still way too fallible to plausibly have something nearly so foolproof when you consider all the sources of abuse and bias in the world from all angles. What we can do is let people speak and focus on taking advantage of our opportunities to speak as well as we can; that's not everything but it is something on which a healthy intellectual foundation can be built. No, I won't alter the foundation when a case doesn't go my way; I will look for better ways to take advantage of that foundation for next time while being thankful for having an opportunity to do that, especially if it turns out that I happen to know the truth about something.
I mean, it's one way to do things... the other way would be to simply get your own expert and make the case to the jury, and make a case for why the other side's expert is wrong. Then you can at least have a dialogue and have a chance to show the lack of support that there supposedly is. But why even have a jury if the experts will control which side the jury will see? The experts have their role, but they should do their best within their role, not expand their role to supersede that of others. Sure, sometimes the jury makes the wrong decision with their power. So too of experts, especially ones that are handed an increase of power that is more than they can even handle.
What if your suggestion still doesn't convince a jury as often as you want it to? Will you then, "for the greater good," even further expand the role of experts to overriding jury votes, provided that their expertise is relevant to the court case? Will you stick with that if those experts start having opinions that hurt musicians you like? These are questions that could be pondered for hours yet often aren't even considered.
Note that I am not against bad (negative) peer reviews, but if anything I might allow those bad peer reviews to themselves be evidence, rather than simply disallow a side to use an expert with bad peer reviews should they so choose (fraudulent credentials is a whole other story, as that messes with the objective common denominator we're supposed to have with this). As long as they got the objective credential, that is the common denominator. Obviously, some experts might be better or smarter than others, but you would determine that as a juror by simply looking at the arguments from both sides and trying to draw the best rational conclusions you can. Such factors are important but I hope people understand that they are not what inherently separate experts from non-experts; they are what compare apples to apples, for example, non-experts vs. non-experts and experts vs. experts. You can have bad, wrong experts but they are still experts; to not recognize that is simply deceitful and abusing the concept of expert to try to bias the jury ("only my expert is the real expert! Even though they earned the same credential we all have to earn"), instead of use the system that was already fairly put in place for handling experts.
If this trend goes on, the guitarrists of the 70's could destroy all heavy metal if they so wanted.
Well, that's a little "far strung" hyuk
Way past the statutes of limitations for that.
And Paganini could sue all of them
@@ObscureStuff420 Interesting point. Is the SOL for these types of claims controlled by a federal statute? Otherwise you'd have people forum shopping for state venues and I'd be interested in knowing whatever analysis the plaintiffs' attorneys go through in determining the best forum.
@@robertmclaughlin9472 my understanding is that the statute starts to run when the infringement is discovered. So I guess if you can make a plausible argument that you just recently discovered that a 40 year old song infringed your copyright, then it is possible
”I hope you’re getting paid well, Todd Decker, because you kinda sold us all out on this one” -Basslord Neely 2.8.2019
Vocal Fry Neely.
FuzzzWuzzz as an American I only use
Bald eagle bald eagle/cheeseburger cheeseburger/gun gun gun gun
FuzzzWuzzz sorry, I was terribly high that day and mixed up the date.
Yes, Adam Neely did a great analysis on this bogus case!
Gave me a stankface
So one thing you actually missed, this lawsuit has been going on for years. They didn’t just realize it in 2019, it just wrapped up in 2019. We were talking about this lawsuit back in 2013 when I was in college.
Absolutely
The lawsuit was filed in 2014 but ok
Its still not wrapped up. When you posted this I believe Katy Perry had lost to a jury, now a court overturned the jury, and I'm sure there will be another appeal. This wont be over for a bit now.
+David Johnson
Frankly I hope that Joyful Noise gets Katy Perry's ass for not giving credits where credits are due. Its so despicable to lift so many elements from someone's creative efforts without thanking them as inspiration, thats disgusting ...
People should also be made aware that even one of the dance moves in Joyful Noise's mv is repeatedly used in Dark Horse's mv ! (the one where the dancers click their fingers with a forearm swung to the side ..
With that in mind, its so obvious someone in Katy's team (probably Katy herself) watched Joyful Noise's mv and decided to take 4 elements to form a new song, of course they tweaked a couple of notes to avoid having to give Joyful Noise any royalty ... but no, thats wrong of them, the tweaking is not big enough to call it a passing similarity.
Joyful Noise do deserve credits and some money payments because those elements lifted Katy's songs to a far more enjoyable and punchy level than it would be without them !
@@88feji what did you smoke?
I really appreciate this and completely agree with you! I also agree with others and think that these record companies should hire you to expose the reality of the music in comparison. Well done!
I have a feeling that when they were selecting the jury they were asked if they knew anything about music. If they said yes they were disqualified.
😂😂😂
I think it was the opposite. If they knew anything about music, there was a good chance this rap-crap would sound all the same to them, supporting the plagiarism claim.
Yes, that's generally the case. I'm an intellectual property lawyer and I would absolutely want knowledgeable people on the jury; however, I seem to stand alone in this belief amongst my peers. Their view is that they need a blank mind to program to get them to believe what they want them to believe.
@@Christopher-md7tf Amen.
@@Christopher-md7tf you ever had Jury Duty?
Rick, I believe your vast knowledge of music theory is far superior than some of these so called experts that show up for the court system. I believe you should market yourself to a reputable law firm.
That's an excellent idea!
They can't have people who actually use reasoning in court. That would fuck everything up.
@Terry Head It's called settlement. The reasons for settlement is that the wisdom of juries is not infallible so both parties are free to make a contract that effectively splits the risk.
i am an attorney and actually tried contacting the attorneys in the Ed Sheeran lawsuit to show him both Rick's and Adam Neely's video but could not get in touch.
A lot of people didn’t even know Joyful Noise existed before the lawsuit happened.
But Katty Perry did
Sans the Skeleton that’s how these producers take advantage of them.. they think no one knows them so they will never find out
It doesn't matter. Large scale producers use less known peoples work, they buy the beats, lyrics, themes, and ideas off people. Sometimes they'll steal it and tweak it a bit
Sans the Skeleton that’s because most of us kids weren’t even born yet
Sans the Skeleton a lot of people did tho 🤦🏽♂️
Siapa yang kesini gara" Dunia MANJI bahas KEKE BUKAN BONEKA?
guaa bro dia ngomong apa gua kaga ngerti .. bahasa inggris kaga paham
Rizal Nova aku 😂🥰
Ue
😆😆🙌🙌
Rizal bukan boneka
Many thanks for putting out the only musically informed analysis of this dispute. You nailed it👏🏽🙌🏽
Right!? Too many empty opinion vids except this one
I know somebody that gets it. Unlike the people who just hate certain bands cough "metallica" cough. I've noticed if they hate the band they are music thieves and if they like the band it was inspiration. I've quit trying to explain you can't sue everyone that plays a I-IV-V chord progression in their song.
This video serves a great dual purpose- to educate us all and advertise Rick's expertise so the next time a musician is in court over copyright suits they will call him instead!
Nailed what ? Perry copied too much of Flames song that why she lost the Court case .
@@keithselden2096 so every rapper that says "yeah, uh huh" or holla or this is ya boi should be sued for plagiarism is that what you're saying?
In ten minutes you did what a court of law couldn't. This is why I love the internet. Subbed and the bell is rung.
Yeah it's pretty common. The difference between an "expert" and someone who knows what they're talking about. The main difference is the "expert" has a piece of paper signed off by an institution that doesn't know what they're talking about
@kelly links Most people are followers and ignorant. Not once did this guy explain the actual law of copyrights and what has to be proven. He explained music and chord progressions. He acknowledged similarities (at least 3 major similarities) but concludes the lawsuit is bogus even though he thinks that the plaintiff should get 10-15%. And that is enough for people to think this lawsuit is frivolous. Sigh... how about we learn what needs to be proven in copyrights before we get online and think a random guy talking chords knows law.
We want a video series about this famous cases with your music analysis. 🤘
GREAT EXPLANATION OF SIMILARITIES AND DIFFERENCES... YOU SHOULD HAVE BEEN IN THE COURT ROOM TO ENLIGHTEN THE JURY. YOU DO IT VERY WELL. SORRY FOR ALL CAPS MY CAPS ARE ALWAYS ON.
He’s right! There will be thousands of songs using similar 3 note patterns. What on earth were these people thinking
Greed ,money ,hungry for game ig them being awful people that's what they are being/thinking
Maybe I'm reaching,, but the joyful noise dude was complaining how his song was now tainted by witchcraft or whatever so hes clearly an extremist Christian lol. So hear me out,, Katy Perry was raised evangelist but got away from the church, what if this guy just hates katy Perry as a defector? He was looking for something to get her for I bet
@@pinkpink-kb6dl yeah what Christian's they are.
In cases like this, I wonder if they pick a jury with music composition knowledge.
Shallow thinking - it's called!
Actually the lawsuit was filed in 2014 and only went to trial now. The craziest part is that even the lyricists from Dark Horse were found liable when the lyrics are completely different!!
I think they did that because of their involvement, how popular flame was in 08 on the christian radios, and found them liable for not doing their due diligence. Which by the way, is complete bullshit but that's about the only way I could see a lawyer spinning that one in a legal fashion. I expect them to file for a retrial if they can.
My understanding is more that if its decided that someone else should have been getting a cut, then everybody else would have gotten less. So they would essentially be paying back the money they never should have gotten. Doesn't mean they're guilty of anything.
Not saying the ruling was right, btw
As Brett Nelson said, the Katy Perry lyricists were not being sued for infringing on the rap lyrics, but rather because they owned part of the song, and the entire song was found to be infringing.
They ain't sueing because of the lyrics are you deaf? The beat was the same
I love channels like this. I'm some random guy, and I can just come away having learned something. Love it.
Plus Flame's song's melody is an Electro-House-style lead and Katy's is a vocal chop.
Bach should just sue every musician ever because they used the V-I resolution.
(I know Bach wasn't the first one to use V-Is, obvioulsy)
Right?
@@2gomyles r/woooosh
Don’t forget that chromatic melody in dark horse is the same as a theme from a ravel piece.
@@2gomyles Marvin Gaye is dead too but that didn't stop him.
@@user-mz6qu3hz6m Marvin Gayes's estate*
Katy should have hired you as her musicologist, Rick !
Very well presented argument
it would not change the outcome. The type of cases exploited the lack of specific knowledge of the jury. Copyright dispute should be decided by a professional arbitration court not by jury.
not really ...very basic defence
she needs to get good lawyers
@@dirkstrickland135 looks like that rap crap had God on their side lol
@ wes chilton if you get sued you need a lawyer and when sueing most need a lawyer
Yeah. I can tell you don't know what a melody is.
The "expert" they used should be charged with perjury since he clearly lied to fit the narrative. This is the 3rd video from what I'd consider to be credible and actual Experts in Music that have totally smashed his findings.
You should know that a court has reversed the verdict and proven your very point about the two songs.
“I have no love for the ppl who wrote darkhorse”
Lol damn rick lol I love your honesty
@justin hillman (Flame is one guy)
justin hillman how🙄
Just realized the coincidental weirdness of a song named Dark Horse getting hit for plagiarism. The most famous plagiarism suit of the rock era was against a publishing firm named Dark Horse (i.e. George Harrison).
@justin hillman | Joyful noise sounds wayyyy better than dark horse any day. ha
@justin hillman | I would rather hear the message in "Joyful Noise" any day.
we dont need AI for analysis, we have Rick Beato!
AI does NOT understand 'nuance'!
It’s not ridiculous to say that she never heard it even though she had roots in gospel. It’s unlikely that she never heard it, not ridiculous.
Sione Levatau agreed
Her ex husband Russell brand would disagree with you...after they divorced he said she still very much held to her Christian beliefs. Flame was rapping before Katy perry crossed over....so it’s more then likely she knew his music
There’s only so many notes. I think it’s different enough to be valid as it’s own thing
Spence, you're very right. There are only seven notes in the major and just so many riffs you can make. It's possible two people can come up with the same riff if they are playing on the same type instrument. But usually the lyrics create the riffs with song writers. The jury should go to the lyrics to see if they are genuine and match the riff..
The Compiler what?? What are you even saying?
@@HollowayIP The combination of a 8 notes and melodies in the 8 notes in all major and minor key is over 100 billion. Just because there are only 8 notes doesn't mean people actually end up with same melodies. Actually coming up with same melodies around the same time has never existed in history before. And will never exist in history just on pure mathematics.
@@handsomejustin To be fair they weren't in the same key. They were the same 7 of 8 notes and a key or two higher (maybe half). I think the problem is that it has come down to mathematics and music engineering when its a societal issue. A jury should have the say on whether or not it is a copy, because its ultimately subjective, not objective. If this doesn't count as copied work, it really opens the door to mainstream music companies to copy and slightly alter proven works, something they've been using windows to do until now.
If I ever get sued Im going to hire Adam Neely and Rick as my musicologists. lol
El Goose yessssssssss!
El Goose me too 😊
I _love_ that Rick is weighing in on this 🥰
So Rick, are you saying this just in regard to Katy vs Flame, or Ed Sheeran and Robin Thicke vs Marvin Gaye? Also wondering what your thoughts are regarding Joe Satriani vs. Coldplay.
Interesting. I'd also like to hear your thoughts on Satriani vs Coldplay.
So basically it's like suing another car manufacturer for also making cars that have wheels... I see these sorts of accusations a lot with people who know nothing about music.
That's the point, those judges don't know a thing about music, they just exploit that and make them believe something false. Rick is just explaining it right.
steve wagner and lost, by the way!! That potato potato sound can not be trademarked nor copyrighted. The design of the engine can be patented however.
The specific design may be patented ie if they add a specific feature. The car itself is not copyrighted.
you should have said windshield wipers
It is like suing Katy Perry for using the word "perry" in her artist name.
Well...sooner or later universities will need to start offering "Applied Music Theory For Lawyers" programs in order to meet the growing demand.
Instead of patent trolls, we will have music trolls. Just pay a bunch of artist 50$ to keep churning as many different beats as possible. Eventually you will be able to sue every future artist
Instead of patent trolls, we will have music trolls. Just pay a bunch of artist 50$ to keep churning as many different beats as possible. Eventually you will be able to sue every future artist
I am both a musician and a lawyer. Most of the lawyers that I hire are also musicians.
The lawyers aren’t the problem, the problem is that we literally have random musically uneducated people judge within these should be easy cases
There really should be an impartial body of academic musicians whose job it is to decide what can be copyrighted and when those copyrights are breached.
*two months later
Oh no! Corruption!
I believe your technical content is outstanding. Data and evidence based analysis : fantastic. You should be approached by the lawyers team!!!
Great video Rick, I've def heard of Dark Horse but never of Joyfull Noise till now. Melody and Lyrics do sound very different now that you mention it.
After the invention of the chromatic scale by John Chromatic, every music is just a remix
John Chromatic, the underrated composer of our times...
Got that right.
I think that there is a video series called everything is a remix.
In the Grimdark future of the 21st millenium...
there is only Remixes
Katy Perry's Lawyer: *[FIRED]*
I love your prof pic
And sued!!!
@@uwugriffith oh thank you! :'}
Katy Perry’s Expert Witness: [FIRED]
Orang indonesia yg kesini gara gara klik linknya di deskripsi box Video Dunia manji mana suaranya...?
Telat lu baru tau Rick Beato sekarang
Btw, why weren't you summoned by the court?
I completely agree with your assessment of the situation. We're of one mind.
Also, I'm suing you for plagiarizing my assessment of the situation.
Steven O'Brien BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!
Judge: bring in the musicologists...
Beato: “I mean come on!”
Judge: case closed.
Haha!
We need Adam Neely too
ha!!!
Wahahhhah nice 🤭😂😂
@Milton Wu that is similar to Katy Perry's Dark Horse and "Tinggallah Ku Sendiri" came out in 1993, when KP was 9!
thanks for your professional breakdown. As an amateur I thought the lawsuit was rubbish but it's good to see it properly dissected. I do actually like Dark Horse and my wife bought the album though I'm a rock & guitar guy mostly.
Totally agree with your analysis, those kind of courts decissions are disrupting music industry. Time to review the law copyright infingement rules and update them. It seems that nowadays theres a lot of confussion about which are the copyrightable elements of a song , a confusion about production elements, fx elements, song arrangement, chords, beats, etc. , and not about those two simple and crucial elements: melody and lyrics ! Time to update the law accordingly...
Anything with content in between the 1khz - 2khz band, you now have to pay me royalties.
Ryan Mackey good my experimental deep vibration screamo synth pop is safe
@@twentylush synth you said? You have to pay Moog royalties
I never produce above 20 hz anyway.
When UA-cam demontizes for headphones bleeding....
Total BS. By the way, it was Dr. Luke and Max Martin demonetizing the video for headphone bleed
@@RickBeato Don't ya wish you could ban hammer the demonitizers? lol
Dumbest thing I will hear today.
@@RickBeato There's a wonderful irony here. The fact that they lost the lawsuit enabled you to post a video, defending the very song that would have prompted them to demonetise your video had they won the lawsuit. My head hurts...
Great video as always Rick :) Best wishes from England
They sued in 2014 FYI
Excellent review and video 👏👏
The jury was flummoxed. But their decision in theory cannot be overturned by the traditional court system unless there was "clear error."
The best way to get some order in the music business is to have this case be accepted for review by the Supreme Court. Only they can create the standard to distinguish the copying of a song from this nickel and dime stuff.
Rick, you would make a great expert witness. Your opinions are stated concisely, forcefully, and without equivocation. You explain things in a simple manner without condescending to the listener. Your lifetime of music experience qualifies you, and your friendly demeanor would be a godsend to jurors who are more than likely intimidated by the formalities of the courtroom and by a subject about which they probably know very little and which appears to them to be hopelessly complex.
Yeah I agree with you entirely.
I know next to nothing about the formalities or fundamentals regarding music or playing an instrument. However I tend to be pretty good at spotting people who know what the fuck they are talking about and your general, much more common bullshitter.
I can watch Rick talking about things I have no idea and still grasp important aspects I had no previous understanding of.
Rick is most definitely the former rather than the later. If I were in a bind regarding this kind of thing, I think I would like him in my corner.
Six writers convicted of copying three notes. Unbelievable 🤦♂️
This was not a criminal trial. No one was convicted of a crime. This is just about money (and reputation).
Immunity of Fate half a note each!!
On Love And Sublimation both songs were so bad, it should have been criminal.
@@Newzchspy I agree. Off with their heads.
Hahahah “convicted”
Awesome video. Thanks for your thoughts, insightful as always..My thoughts since this suit still is: Only topic worth having is how both artists lifted the motif from Moments of Love. Sample heads knew this from the jump. (Adam Neely got it in his video)... Peace Rick
Art of noise should sue them both. (Moments in love)
This!
Same Here Zig, when i first heard it, that's the same thing that went through my mind!! i told myself hmmm, that Art of Noise!!
I still know that song , it's from 1984
It doesn't sound the same at all. Literally none of you came up with this on your own, it was a terrible idea pulled out of someones ass with the purpose of defending Katy Perry. The only similarity with that is the tone used, its like saying the drop in dubstep is owned. If you do 7 of the 8 exact same notes leading in to the drop, that's a completely different issue. Imagine how easy it would be to copy the music of Skrillex if you could get away with changing just one note? Obviously you can use the same tones he uses, and it would sound similar like you guys are talking about, but this is more about taking that tone with his 8 note beat, changing one of the notes, and using that to make a catchy song. It's just not your song, even the rest of it was created by you.
Art of Noise was "inspired" by Laurie Anderson's "O Superman"
Rick - you may have found your next source of income: musicology witness for copyright infringement cases!
Thinking' the exact same thing & I imagine the payday is substantial, after all millions $$$$ at stake!
Natediggity19 A "Professional Juror"! ...And musicologist.
I went to UCSB and one of my professors there was on the case of Jay Z getting sued for Big Pimping because he was the director of the musicology department specializing in middle eastern music.
when you compared the songs i realized i know nothing about music/notes
😂
Yeah music theory is pretty complicated.
DAVECATAZ I disagree actually. A lot of music theory is actually very simple once you get comfortable with the terminology and a few instruments
@@jamelgreaves6989 good to know. So I shouldn't be scared to learn, huh?
Orangeflava definitely not friend ! Get stuck in music is for EVERYONE and don’t let anyone say otherwise
If dark horse had been published before joyful noise, would katy perry’s lawyers sue flame? Would they win?
Support indie musicians!
Yuuf Eternal nope
probably not because clearly her musical expert and lawyers suck
Rick, I thoroughly enjoy your presentations and need to come check your studio at some point. You are amazing. I'm still still stuck on your perfect pitch. As a DJ the song that reminded me of her song when I played it was a classic melody from Art Of Noise "Moments In Love". That record was sampled a bunch in the 90s.
Rick, you need to be hired as a professional witness for these kinds a cases.
absolute BS. next up, someone is gonna sue for using C, G, D in sequence.
C-G-D? My lawyer will be in contact with you shortly. . .
Just about to say the same HaHaHa
Did someone say my trademarked phrase "my lawyer"? Sorry, but my lawyer™ will be in contact with you within 3-5 business days.
The entire Christian genre can sue each other into oblivion since they all use the same three chords.
My friends going for her GED soon.. Maybe I should tell her it's not worth it, because she may get sued..
Okay so everyone who wrote a song in the 12 bar blues or with the chord progression of I IV V SHOULD BE SUED! That will be several million songs btw.
Your spot on with your assessment. If they brought you in as an expert witness she would have won. I think the jury was confused about the differences of having a unique instrument sound that was in both songs verses an actual copying of the song and the technical break down that you so diligently explained.
well what about Halo by Beyonce and Already gone by Kelly Clarkson then???
also sue everyone who has "put your hands in the air" in their songs...🤦♀️🤦♀️🤦♀️
Interestingly those songs had the same writer, so I'm not entirely sure it counts if the same person wrote it.
That person being Ryan Tedder of OneRepublic
@@Grantallica oh cool! I did not know that! :)
@@4elovechishe he's actually one of the most prolific pop writers when it comes to big hits for artists, if you check his discography you'd be surprised how many big hits you'll have heard that he had some part in
@@Grantallica never heard of him...but it is very interesting! will do my research. thank you for your reply!🥰
r/wholesome
This (the verdict) is looking like a symptom of the declining musical education of the US.
Declining education full stop. To be a competent juror, you need critical thinking. That's a skill that could and should be taught to kids in school from the age they can comprehend spoken language, but is a skill that is increasingly lacking the world over.
It doesn’t matter if the jurors weren’t musical experts. Katy Perry’s lawyer sucks. The musical expert was greedy. If accurate information isn’t presented (or inaccurate information disputed), the jurors can’t make accurate judgements.
I wouldn't necessarily say declining but it's definitely a case of someone manipulating a jury who doesn't understand music to get quick money. It's easy to use words like Ostinato and Minor Descending Pattern to confuse people who don't understand it.
I think it's that, but also the fact that the "Christian" community was angry that Katy took influence from his song and in her video she used imagery that wasn't to their liking, complaining about witchcraft and Illuminati crap. Bunch of lunatics, and the jury was probably full of Christians who were persuaded to defend Christianity to make their decision. Awful
Chad Pad you are taking this to hate on Christians. Wow. Calm down.
I'm a Flame fan, loved your critique in the video. The only thing I will point out is Flame actually started his lawsuit back in 2015.
Rather than a "jury of peers" in these types of suits, perhaps we need a "jury of experts in the field".
Flame is 154 BPM KP is 132 BPM, so the tempo is completely different as well.
@@pawelpap9 Yes it is. As an intellectual property lawyer, I can tell you that it absolutely matters.
Tempo is not irrelevant. Not at all.
I don’t think it’s irrelevant but I don’t think it’s as important. If the tempo somehow changed the melody of the song in some way then maybe it’ll defly play a role.
A few things:
1) we don’t know the details of the case and what other evidence was presented.
2) this lawsuit began like a few years ago. As you know trial dates are usually set a few years out. So they didn’t go after her recently
3) I agree the two songs are very different
Oluwaboriogun Afolabi
Totally agree Bori! 😉
I’d like to see any texts/emails that were subpoenaed. I doubt it was as simple as “they sound similar”.
I think Art of Noise Song Moments in Love which is an instrumental I used to hear at clubs in the 90's sounds like both these songs.
Hi Rick, I love all your music analyses and your expertise and I'm becoming a follower of your posts. I think there are many perspectives on these types of cases. One perspective is the analogy of the BREXIT political case. Let me explain this one. The British government of the day asked the British population an impossible question, for which they could not, in a thousand years of studying, understand the underlying complexities in order to be able to make a good decision, one way or the other. Similarly, in anything in politics, the politician's most successful strategy is to appeal to the lowest common denominator in order to get elected. The voters are largely oblivious to the truth or consequences of their vote. There's no greater example of this than the present incumbents of the White House and 10 Downing Street. Similarly with music and this case. The appeal is to the lowest common denominator and that is the man and woman on the street. If they think the two songs sound alike, then they are, alike!
There are also dimensions you need to consider when analysing a case like this. In other industries, such as production and manufacturing, where industrial espionage results in rival companies stealing ideas. For example, Steve Jobs, stole the graphical user interface, mouse and pointer idea from Xerox Parc when he visited there in 1976 and launched the Apple Mac in 1984 - the basis of all useable computers over the last 40 years. In education, stealing ideas is just as bad as copying the words and is called plagiarism. Paraphrasing without attribution is still stealing and is still plagiarism.
The fact that the notes have slight variations, and the words are different, and the authors of the Perry song deny they copied the Flame song, is neither here nor there. There is no doubt to the common ear, that the Perry song directly lifted ideas from Flame's song, without attribution.
There are always consequences to this kind of behaviour. These consequences depend somewhat on the success of the plagiarised piece. The originator of a piece hopes to get two kinds of rewards for their work: kudos/recognition and/or monetary gain. If the plagiarised work gets this instead, and gets a lot, then there must be a price to be paid for it, back to the originator. Which is why these are big, big cases. The expert ear, like yourself, is not enough. Because just as you are expert enough to be able to show they are different, you would be able to also use your experience to do the same thing and make a different song using someone else's work, and simply substitute a few notes in it to claim it is an original piece. If Katy Perry made no money from this song, there wouldn't be a case worth fighting. If the song was not successful, no one would be claiming the kudos for this unusual sound.
There are many other cases similar to this and I know you've covered the Led Zeppelin Stairway to Heaven case. But I wonder if you've considered looking into examples of songs by Bruno Mars, who seems to be a habitual plagiarist. In particular, his first hit, "Just The Way You Are", where he took the music from Alicia Keys' "Doesn't Mean Anything", and used some instrument substitutions. I don't know his relationship with Keys, or if he had permission, but he certainly admits to poor behaviour in this area in material on the internet, such as his wikipedia song pages.
Keep up the great work, Rick.
Rick, if i'm ever in court defending my songs, could I call you to testify in my favor? You are brilliant. Love your videos Rick.
I always enjoyed Rick's interpretations of these lawsuits in terms of how similar to extents they are; they really give the viewers the opportunity to really think about whether the lawsuits are reasonable or not. Great work here man!
Geez then ABBA would own just about every major scale run if this court case is anything to go by.
You preach it Rick! I loved your final thoughts!
I agree with everything you said but I'd like to point out that they DID see pretty quickly. We're just hearing the results now that its over, but it was filed with the courts in 2014
Caiti M You will always find similarities in 4 chord songs. When you write mucus with only 4 chords, you are going to come across a lot of music with similarities. I can’t stand 4 cord songs. Too many times I have I started listening to one and thought it was a different song due to the amount of similarities. It also takes zero skill to write them when you consider the fact that most 4 chord songs are written by one of two guys.
I’ll tell you what I find similar. I don’t like either one of these songs.
Yep, both trash ass songs.
Agree!
Both artists should be spanked equally.
I'll sue them for noise polution 😡
Same
But the intro of dark horse same too with song from indonesian singer nike ardila..
Nike has out her song in 90's
Great analysis Rick.
Pretty sloppy work on the part of Katy Perry's legal team there...
@Birdman PB you hit the nail on the head.
@Birdman PB I'm almost certain that had the jury heard the arguments put by Rick or Adam Neely they would have come to a different conclusion.
@Birdman PB Fair enough, I'd just assumed her team would have had their own expert, who would be able to effectively counter the arguments, or make them void in the eyes of the jury.
@Birdman PB Was the subconscious influence line of argument used in court?
I hate how the originality of songs is being called into question over such petty nonsense. It should be simple to determine who owns what, at least in cases like this where, at best, two musical ideas might have been borrowed directly. Music is awfully derivative, just like all art, and practices like sampling (which is far more derivative than using a vaguely similar synth line) are part of the culture. It’s becoming far to easy to undercut someone’s success just by showing that a single idea is similar and getting an “expert” to dress it up in flowery language. It sounds like cannibalizing other artists’ work is becoming commonplace. What does this mean for any up-and-coming artist these days?
I feel like outcomes like this are setting an extremely dangerous precedent.
Soon minor line cliches, 2-5-1s and playing in standard tuning on the guitar will
be outlawed :(
I feel you. We better lock down all those tritone substitutions before that goes down. 🤣🤣🤣
Flame shouldn’t have won! I can hardly even tell the similarities without looking closely and paying attention! It’s so unfair! 😡
@P J because it barely sounds anything like dark horse
I love these! Keep these coming!
The suit was brought 5 years ago. It has been in litigation for 5 years and just now got its verdict
If it keeps coming this way, scales would be claimable too.
That was the whole issue with the Stairway lawsuit
Tom Veselý okay guys i’ve said it here, F minor is my key.
@@glasscastlex Ok ok that's fine, as long as I get C sharp minor
I'll keep D major. Please don't mess with my D major. It's the only key I can sing in
The copyright system is broken af.
Hip Hop originated from sampling or copying other music and slowing it down and mixing it. It then was sold as mix tapes in the trunks of cars so that is why people did not enforce copyright laws against them back then.
It's time to create a new career: The music lawyer, a lawyer who's main requirement is to know music theory, and capable of playing at least 5 instruments.
There are already entertainment lawyers who specialize in intellectual property so I wouldn't be surprised if music lawyers become a thing, it'd be nice.
These bogus lawsuits are just going to keep coming.
@@PowerRangersFanAntiDinoFury I think regardless of religious beliefs, artistry is artistry. You don't copy or sample music without paying respects or literally paying the other artist.
Elygod (伊利神) these songs are not similar whatsoever. He doesn’t deserve to be paid for this
@@Zack-si9qr I guess the sound was similar enough for the judge to rule otherwise 😂 but you'd be suprised how much music you like is sampled from older songs. There's only so many notes and chords you can form before it all runs out.
@@compwexity Did you even watch the video and listen to Rick's analysis of it?
@@compwexity The judge and jury clearly didnt have any music training though because if they did they would've recognized that this isn't nearly similar enough to justify a federal case.
I think Katy and her team for this song were wrongfully sued... they don't sound the same
Finest Montero As a former producer and sound engineer it doesnt sound anything alike. They going to start copyrighting rhythms now. This lawsuit was ridiculous
Finest Montero honestly I feel like he just wanted some hype, the songs doesn’t even sound alike
@@nadiamckinney270 you spelled *money wrong.
well he is poor and wants money. a rat is a rat
These types of suits rarely sound the same. Juries should have to have some kind of music training or ear for music.
My heart drop! I thought Bourdain who's talking here.. Great review 👏
Great vid btw😊
I agree with you. Everything has been done in music already. Everyone is copying everyone. BS
ghaze420 you’re an idiot
@@cured_bacon647 woah calm down
I DO NOT COPY NO ONE UNLESS IM SAMPLING
@@cured_bacon647 yeah there's lots of actually talented artists like Flume or gold panda who make original stuff. This whole thing of pop regards who can't make anything themselves makes me so angry
Saying that everything has already been done in music is a pretty bold claim...
Who's gonna start the 1, 5, 6, 4 chord progression lawsuit? That's gonna be crazy lol
Demian Osorio you cant copyright a chord progression
Victoria Barreras it was a joke he wasn’t being entirely serious. He was just saying a ton of people use that chord progression
Green Day would be fucked
Victoria Barreras There are a lot of things you can’t copyright that are winning in court. Exhibit A: this horseshit
@@dennis8636 More like Blink 182 dude. So many of their songs are written in C Major with that chord progression
A sound argument, thorough presentation! I liked it. My only concern is there is a melody for the chorus of the song Joyful Noise and he didn't identify it. I don't think it would change the premise because I still think the two choruses are different but would've liked to have seen that compared more accurately.
I still think George Harrison got screwed over by stupidity too!
My Sweet Lord -definitely- used same melody as He's So Fine. Slam dunk on that one.
@@tedparkinson6892 My understanding is that the Harrison case was swung on one just one note. The case was musical stupidity!!! No one seemed to fully understand what music actually is.