Which is faster? Celebi in Crystal or Mew in Yellow?
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- Опубліковано 6 вер 2024
- Today, we're celebrating 1k subs on my second channel, GSC Pokemon Challenges, with a Legendary Cross-Gen race. Which beats their original Gen faster?
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~~Scoring System~~
Full Unedited Run with Live Commentary is here: • Can the WORST Gloom be...
Scoring:
-Pokemon Starts with a score of 100 points.
-Minus 0.1 points per reset (10 resets = 1 point)
-Minus 0.25 points per optional battle (4 optional battles = 1 point)
-Minus 1 point per TM (Excluding Broken TMs)
-Minus 10 points per Broken TM (Double Team, Substitute, Mimic, Rest, Bide, Toxic)
For why these TMs are Broken, watch my Level 5 No EXP Solo Challenge Series, where even Bide helped Level 5 Pokemon Solo the ENTIRE GAME!
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Process:
Every Pokemon goes through 3 separate tests:
1. Minimum Battles
2. No TMs
3. Optimization for score on the tier-list
Rules:
1. 0 DVs (Worst Possible Stats).
2. No Items in Battle.
3. No Stat Boosting Vitamins (HP Up, Carbos, Iron, Calcium, Protein).
4. No other Pokemon in battle (HM Mules allowed outside of battle).
5. Timer STARTS when I select New Game, and ENDS when the Champion is defeated.
6. Required Battles are the 65 battles that cannot be avoided without glitches (See Jrose11's original Minimum Battles video.
7. Pokedoll Glitch is a glitch and therefore banned.
8. Brock Through Walls is banned.
9. Badge Boost Glitch is allowed without restrictions.
10. Save states for routing and catching HM Pokemon only.
11. No wild encounters, except to catch HM pokemon.
~~Every Run has Unedited Live Commentary~~
Live Commentary Unedited runs:
Mew, Yellow: • Live Commentary - Mew ...
Celebi, Crystal: • Live Commentary - Cele...
~~Pokemart~~
Changing Starters:
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#pokemonyellow #pokémonchallenge #minimumbattles
In regards to banning broken TMs, I would argue that Swords Dance falls under this category. One generation can set up a sweep while the other can't. Furthermore, the gen 1 badge boost glitch turns each Swords Dance into a mini omniboost. There were multiple battles where you were actively abusing it to outspeed pokemon you normally wouldn't have been able to. While I'd like to see Swords Dance banned, it's incidentally hard to do a cross generation race where one is allowed to abuse it's glitches while the other can't.
Swords Dance is definitely OP. I could do a separate run without SD for a test.
The way I see it, him cutting out the tedious sections of Team Rocket in GSC shows that the times were pretty close if you removed those sections, but, that would mean less experience on Celebi. I think Mew would still probably perform well with just a pure special set. It might require a few extra battles, at worst.
I feel like the Swords Dance glitch really helped Mew in this run. Probably would have ended the same but Gen1 is such a fun broken mess it’s hard to do fair comparisons with taking the glitches/exploits into account
For sure. I think if we banned setup moves like Swords Dance, it would be MUCH tougher for Mew. I banned DT at least, so we weren't going all-in on boosts
Eh I doubt Mew would slow down at all...hard to beat 100 BS in every category + quake, psychic, Tbolt and ice beam by 4th gym lol
By the way, there’s a bug in Gen II with AncientPower. Lethal blows have no chance to trigger the “omni-boost”.
I can't find a source in that claim. Is it specific to this move or does it affect all "chance to raise stats after use" moves?
@@AkaiAzulit affects every secondary effect on a damaging move even including hyperbeam's recharge
I had no idea about this.. I will put in some research
I don't remember the data structures for move data in Gen 2, would it be possible to make the chance 100% and see if it works when you KO something? I don't remember if you'd need to change the "boost all stats" itself to have that chance for its effect of if the move data includes a percentage chance. I think in some later generations they made the chance part of the move data structures but I don't remember too much, it has been a while since I actively looked into modding the Pokemon games.
@@Metalhammer1993 um hyper beam recharges in gen 2 even if u get a ko, though in gen 1 if u get a ko with hyper beam u don't recharge
Epic collab between RBY and GSC Pokemon Challenges! The one we've always needed
I feel like Stephen Colbert doing his worthy adversary bit
Beat me to it
mew in crystal and celebi in red would be interesting
I gotta get a Celebi Gen 1 backport and then we're in business.
Anybody else's mind go to a dirty place upon hearing "So all she's gonna do is try to flash us here"?
And I way it in basically every episode lol
small thing. confusion would have probably 2 shot the piloswine and saved a small amount of time, as ancientpower is neutral (60bp) versus stab confusion (75bp)
Yeah I saw in the end that Confusion did more damage. If I go back and redo the run at some point, that will be fixed.
Before watching I expected this to be an easy win for mew just because of how punishing it is to be a grass type in Johto. Turns out that didn't even matter for celebi until the lance battle... it's just the gen 2 padding that does it in lol.
Basically yeah.... Like if they would have just cut down the Rocket battles this would have been very competitive.
The problem that most of the Grass types have is that they get like only 3 types of moves: Grass, Poison and Normal.
The problem for Chikorita isn't really that everything is super effective against it, but more that it naturally only learns like Grass and Normal moves, and offensively Grass is horrible in Jotho
@@obambagaming1467 The other issue is that the Chikorita line is designed to be more defensive than offensive. And the grass type is really not a great type defensively...
I thought Gen II would win by a fair margin, but I didn't realise how crappy Celebi's movepool is pre post-game and how tedious the rocket hideouts actually are
Yeah, they are truly bad sections of the game.
If you EVER do RSE challenges you should do a 3 way race with Jirachi! (Sapphire would be better than Ruby for obvious reasons!)
For sure! I honestly will get to Gen 3 and beyond eventually. I want to stabilize and make good headway I to Gen 2 first, but if I finish my minimum battles series in Gen 2, that's when I likely will start on Gen 3
Shouldn't it be Emerald instead? Since Emerald is the final version, much like Yellow and Crystal?
Also, why would Sapphire be much better than Ruby?
@@grrman Jirachi wouldn't be fighting team Magma.
@@avatarmew Oh, that's what you mean. I dunno, don't think team magma would be that big a problem to be honest
Just a brief comment on the "broken TM" thing in the first 5 minutes or so. I think a fairly decent argument could be made that Return is a broken TM. It is accessible to everything that learns TMs, and is highly centralizing, for the League, and even more so for the post-game. I also question if Substitute should be considered a broken TM in gen 1, at least for timed runs. While it does have the universal accessibility thing and does trivialize some otherwise tricky battles, it also is heavily time-gated to access. Yeah, you could go for it, but it will negatively impact your time, just like grinding would.
I agree with both arguments to some degree. The problem with Gen 2 is that there are basically no good TMs in Johto outside of elemental punches, Return, and Hidden Power (assuming you manipulate DVs to get 70 power with some kind of good coverage typing). Dig was nerfed to hell, Shadow Ball is mostly useless, other TMs from gym leaders are also pretty weak overall, so it turns into a situation of Return being basically the only strong option for a lot of Pokemon.
Agree that we'd basically just never even try substitute in timed runs unless the investment offset a massive challenge (basically Agatha) in the late game
Before watching, going to say Mew. It’s relatively stronger in Gen 1 and can hit weak points more consistently with TM moves
TM coverage is pretty massive.
Just starting this, and my guess right now is this is going to go the route of Alakazam vs Gengar. Celebi's movepool is going to make it suffer in the late game, and the mutation-like movepool of Mew is gonna let it run train. Mew is gonna lag behind at first without good moves, and then just accelerate out of control.
Edit: Damn, that was closer than I thought.
Sounds like a fairly good analysis. One other factor for Mew is having to time out when to learn each TM since you can't relearn them, so there were some cases where I did things a little out of order to make TM management better
I feel like you have to do the legwork and figure out how to code Celebi into Yellow to do the opposite dual run for a full comparison.
It's a good idea for the future
Bond with Mew by birth, shining Celebi bond was made as well love both and many Mew kinds
Oh yeah, both of these Pokemon are truly special. Mew is my fav though, be a use I remember trying everything to get one as a kid
@@RBYPokemonChallenges same and when got a GameShark got a Mew but after sometime found that my birth mark resembled Mew as well noticed that many got wrong about the first shiny in the anime due in the first intro the mew there was shiny and in tcg in my only one pack of neo destiny pulled shining celebi so how can’t love them, I’m bonded with both in a strong way.
n_n
Great video as always. Just a quick note. You don't actually need the Gyarados for Whirlpool and Waterfall as you get a Dratini from the quizmaster after the 8th gym. If you talk to him again after reentering the house.
But then again you said no grinding on wild Pokemon and you cannot flee then you have to catch it either way I think.
I completely forgot about that. Is that the Extreme Speed Dratini iirc?
If u answer every question "correctly," yes. Otherwise, it's just a dratini.
Amazing runs as always.
Now do it the opposite way, Celebi in Yellow and Mew in Crystal 😁
Yeah this sounds really fun. I need a backport for Gen 1. I know Scotty is working on them and I think he might release the patch files publicly. If so, we're in business!
@@RBYPokemonChallengesgym leader Matt does a lot of back porting too
It would be fun! My bet is Mew is faster in both games...learning all the TMs would give him shadow ball and the elemental punches early in Gen 2 to allow a sweep similar to how Mew sweeps gen 1
Haha MagicOnion is a great name for Cerebi.
Also like, it's fun that the times work out roughly similar between the runs, but it doesn't really make sense to me how you're trying to compare them at the end. As far as I can see it's only really by chance that they turn out to be roughly the same, they are just different games they weren't designed to have similar speed run times
The real point is that if they hadn't put the much longer and more tedious Rocket Storyline in the game, the two games are actually quite similar in length through the E4, so the difference is almost entirely the result of the Rocket Storyline and basically nothing else
@@RBYPokemonChallenges hmmmmm. But then if you want to actually compare times between the two gen rather than just doing it like a 'fun run', then I think you'd need to run both with the same Pokémon and maybe no TMs and hack out that rocket section, and see if you get the same time. Because then it's like you're designing two different race courses which are almost the same length, and testing and showing that's true, and then it would make sense (to me) to compare times
Hey RBY! Something with the tables I noticed for mud slap. Despite being super effective against steelix, and quad effective against magnemite, it only shows it as 20 and 40 bp respectively, even though it should be 40 and 80. I think this error happens because the program that handles your table was made for gen 1 games, and doesn't know the steel type as a result.
I think you are spot on. I didn't even realize that, so J will go back and edit my type effectiveness formulas. I need to add in Dark and Steel-type effectivenesses
@@RBYPokemonChallenges I also noticed Steelix was showing the movesets for Magnemite while it was out.
2:22 I’ve been detained by officer Jenny for this on several occasions
Lol I honestly feel they missed the opportunity by not putting Jenny in Gen 2. We don't speak to nameless NPC cops here 😂
Before watching, I predict Mew wins. Fewer, backtracks, cutscenes, and forced side quests, even only going up to the Elite Four.
Yeah, Gen 2 loves it's dialogue and story, but kind of overdoes it
Before watching Mew just because of steel and dark, and it she can learn any move
Both very fair points
Can't wait for the inevitable Shuckle 0 DV, 20 base power moves playthrough.
Can it win? probably not... will I try it? 😆
If i remeber correcly, Ancient Power can not give you an omni Boost If you KO a Pokemon with it.
It's an oversight in the Gamecode.
Oh really? That is something I did not know!
I thought Mew would always win (not counting Hidden Power). I feel Mew has two perfect factors over Celebi; typing and move availability. Being a Grass type in addition to a Psychic type is detrimental (wing attack, blizzard, fire blast, flamethrower, etc. at lance).
LAnce is definitely much harder for Celebi than the Champion is for Mew.
Wow,that was an epic co-op between both channels. Mew and Celabi are very similar in their respective games, but rhe gen 2 games are taking longer to complete even on minimum battles , mainly because of the rocket plot line. And other thing that should be taken into consideration is badge boost glitch in gen 1 which can make some battles easier, and the good ai and absence of dark types which can make the game a lot faster for psychic types in general.🤔
Celebi was kind of walled with Lance and Karen is not that consistent too,which kind made things even harder for Celebi . I would suggest that you could use a hard stone to increase the power of ancient power. You can receive it through an npc on a Route 36 Thursday only or always make sure to pick up a paralyzecure berry ,they are usually at Route 46 or in Violet City on you're to Azalea town.😊
But overall I'm really liking the series,and I can't wait to see who will be the Snorlax poo version.😂😂😂
Yeah, I need to make better use of held items in Gen 2. I will study that more
@@RBYPokemonChallenges It a matter of time to gain the right amount of experience in order to know what kind of routing you'll need. 😊 So don't worry about it.
considering they have the exact same base stat, you could redo this as a Physical vs Special run
We could do tons of ideas here lol. I think the Celebi backport to red is a good idea too
@47:37 Is that a The Devil Wears Prada reference?
Not intentionally 😂
Even this video just proofs again that the Rocket "story" in Gen 2 is nothing but a huge waste of time
Fact
This is interesting. Mew in RBY would probably be better than Mewtwo if it was normal type instead of psychic(it'd boost its body slam damage and make it immune to body slam para, the most common status and one of the few things Mewtwo struggles with) while Celebi's main role in GS Ubers is being able to kinda handle Snorlax(an OU mon that's in every team even in Ubers, but still) and some people theorize it'd probably be fine to drop it into OU while Mew is still a contender for best poke in the same GS ubers. They are both good, but Mew's ceiling was always higher.
However, the evel curve in gen 1 is steeper and also there aren't berries to heal status mid battle and stuff, so Mew is also facing some challenges Celebi isn't. Very interesting run!
Honestly, Mew is mostly held back in Gen 1 by its level up moveset in Gen 1 solo challenges. Competitively you're absolutely spot on too!
@@RBYPokemonChallenges That's also something I never considered before watching your video. Mew is known for its versatility in gen 1 because it learns all the TMs, but outside of competitive, you only come across the very good moves later into the game. They definitely tried to balance that by making Mew's level up set kind of awful. Celebi doesn't have the benefit of learning every TM, so it doesn't get the same nerf.
I also never noticed how long the Rocket stuff was in gen 2. It honestly makes it all the more puzzling how relatively barren gen 2 Kanto is, they definitely could have spread that stuff better throughout the game.
These videos are a great way to understand these games and the choices the developers made better!
Out of curiosity, it seems like every time you write out the name of the onion, you write “Cerebi” but you still pronounce it “Celebi”? It’s been like that for the past few community posts as well, what’s the deal with that?
My brain can no longer process L and R when writing after living in Japan for 10 years lol. Honestly that's the best I can come up with.... And too much use of Serebi.net
A great video as always. Just proves that these two are well balanced legendaries. Only the tedious rocket plot line slows down Celeby. Even though Im waiting for Amneasialax and Curselax, the Poolax will be the peoples champion!
Exlax is going to be a truly epic run, the only question is which version he has to run
of those 2 IMHO Mew since it can learn EVERY HM/TM in game.
It is a pretty huge advantage
I usually try to make a prediction in these videos but this one has me kinda stumped. On one hand Mew is one of the best, most overpowered Mons to do a solo run in Gen 1, speedrun or otherwise. Psychic type, good moveset, and full TM compatibility means it can breeze through most battles. However it has a very slow start since it only gets Pound until level 10, and even then it gets Transform, so it's not going to do so hot until it gets some TM moves.
On the other hand Celebi has immediate access to a STAB move as well as longevity in Leech Seed and Recover. And it gets Ancient Power which is great coverage against Dark types. And it's also helped by the fact the level scaling in Johto is much slower than in Kanto, giving it a lot of time to catch up on levels.
I think Celebi has an advantage here, but I'm not super confident.
Definitely good analysis. I think the real factor is if Celebi can OHKO those weaker opps with overall weaker moves late, and because this is 0 DVs, it is losing our on Hidden Power to cover it's holes in type coverage (0 DVs guarantees 31 PWR Hidden Power Fighting)
Yeah, I said *Ancient* power as coverage against Dark since most Dark types in Gen 2 (Houndoom, Murkrow, Sneasel) are weak to Rock @@RBYPokemonChallenges
i almost want to say elemental punch is optimal for celebi, but i forget Celebi can't learn it lol
Yeah, if it got Ice Punch this would be a very different situation on Lance
What are your thoughts on using hidden power?
It could be that Zero dv would give that pokemon a better type for coverage. Wouldnt it be unfair to use it?
So Hidden Power will always be 31 power Fighting on 0 DVs, so it is kind of neutralized by my rules. I don't plan to change DVs to affect Hidden Power typing in general.
@@RBYPokemonChallenges
Zero dv unown run will be brutal
Movepool worse than caterpie
Hey man what is the overlay you are using when recording this video?
It's self-made, but built on the data stream from Gamehook using Vue.js
He gave mew a absolute dog shit move set. It should have been psychic, thunderbolt, bubblebeam, bodyslam
Nah the Swords Dance boost with Badge Boosts is much better than going 4 offensive moves
This should be fun
Let's go!!!
wouldn’t pp up be considered into the vitamins category? 40:47
I didn't think of that. I assume everyone likes more PP 😂
@@RBYPokemonChallenges lmao🤣
Feel like if you're going to arbitrarily remove the time for the rocket plotline in gen 2 to say that these two are close, then you should also be removing the time Mew spent in the game corner/silph plotline in gen 1...
Otherwise great vid as always!
It's fair, but the rocket sections of Yellow are really not that long - only 4 battles in each. compared to the absolutely egregious number of battles in the rocket hideout and radio tower sections of Gen 2, it's really not much
The Rocket plotline in Crystal is just too slow. Yellow will always be faster in a fair fight
I usually do the rocket plotline on minimum battles because it's a not enjoyable part of the game
Yeah, I but the minimum battles route is basically all of the rockets. You can dodge a few spinners with resets, but that takes too much time in this one
Watching this at 3am. Your no1 aussie fan. Here before your bigger than jrose
🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥 Seether97, that is awesome. I've spent just a little time in Australia in the past, so it's cool to hear you're watching from there!
I think mew will win because it has better lategame moves I think and because of the amount of rocket grunts you have to beat in Crystal I think mew will be around 10-15 mins faster
Fair assessment!
Are you going to upload the post game for Celebi run?
Over on GSC Pokemon Challenges, yes. I haven't gotten to it yet though.... Kind of in the middle of a brutal Bruno Team challenge atm
Tie. They both have 100 speed
Legend
I think you have a tendency of getting greedy on the attack boosts. Mew really didn't need to go all three Swords Dances so many times, and given you were setting up on the Alakazam which can hit you with Kinesis while you were relying on Blizzard (notoriously inaccurate), I think Mew could have done better.
I agree on that. I tend to do more setup than necessary on some spots. I would need to use something like the Red/Blue Exp Router Scott uses to fine tune everything, but I prefer to just stay in the moment, and if it's too much, so be it
Fair enough, it's probably more fun like that anyway.
Yer if celebi had access to better moves . Sure this be alot closer . Honestly didn't notice video title saying cerebi until someone mentioned in comments. . But fact mew can learn any move.
makes it over all the best legendary. Not get it confused with my favourite legendary
Definitely true. Sorry for the misspell 😂
How fast would Tauros be if it started with more than tackle?
This is a question that must be answered
@RBYPokemonChallenges It's known as the king of competitive pokemon in gen 1 but it's held back alot by that factor
You can’t get the Omni boost if you knock the Pokémon out
I did not know that. Good to learn
Badge boost was too OP and you don’t get all tms in jhoto which sucks and they actually use potions correctly in second gen too mewto would’ve been Jo’s plenty of times if dumb super potions weren’t used at certain points and x defend
Yeah, potion usage in Gen 1 was just ridiculous. Gen 2 fixes it and makes some fights legitimately tough
isnt sprout tower mandatory on crystal but not gold and silver?
Optional in both. It's the burned tower and rival 3 that are mandatory in Crystal but optional in GS
Exactly as I predicted , the rocket plotline made the difference, the low point of gen 2 in my opinion
Absolutely the case. I mean, they didn't even bring in Giovanni or Jessie and James for the memez
I didn't remember the Rocket hideout taking so long to get through in gen 2, but it makes sense. Especially the part with the unavoidable trip alarms before you can deactivate them.
nice vid :)
Thank you!
How does bide break the game balance in the first couple of generations?
There are quite a few spots where it can be broken, particularly with a Pokemon that can tank a fair amount of damage and just go Mimic+ Bide and grab a confusion move from Agatha and just wreck her
@@RBYPokemonChallenges Ok, Thank you for the answer!
Check your title spelling man lol. You spend too much time on Cerebi
dang auto-correct. always doing it wrong
Hah
Lol
Celery?
Serendipity
@@RBYPokemonChallenges no, that's a veggie. The word you're looking for is Carabiner
What is Cerebi? Some sort of fakemon?
Clearly. I mean, directly from the Japanese it really should be "Serebi", and since I've been in Japan for 10 years, I'm going to give that as my excuse for no longer being able to properly writes L and R 😂
@@RBYPokemonChallenges I have never been able to pronounce the Japanese "r"/"l" sound, but I could see it being written either way. The official spelling gets across the inspirations behind the name better though.
48:23 the bgm here is incredible for a koga fight!
I aim to please 😂
Please name the bad snorlax Exlax
How did you know? 😂
Whats up with your overworld pathing is it just an edit thing that you seem to randomly stop alot of the time
And oof on accidentally teaching swift to pidgey. Then walking into sabrinas gym and mew knows swift
It was probably stopped as I was using Gamehook to give Mew Swift as intended. It's all in the live commentary
One minor note: you could benefit from improving your self commentary skills a bit. I don’t know if you’re a pro wrestling fan, but watching that can give you some insight and ideas. A lot of this video is just “Okay now the opponent went for move X….” Otherwise, great video
Thanks for the feedback. I'll do my best.
What happened in sabrinas gym? Did you get lost?
I mentioned it in the live commentary. I went the wrong way, but you can always reach her eventually by just going up/down, though it's not an efficient route. I would hate to be a really serious speedrunner and have to restart the whole run because of a spot like that
@@RBYPokemonChallenges sorry I didn't hear it at the time, that's the only reason I mentioned it. Totally understandable
Poor Celebi. Using mud slap while Mew gets earthquake. Meanwhile Mew gets Swords Dance and abuses gen 1 omni boosts. Lololololol. Is it really fair tho?
Gen 1nis pretty unfair 😂
May i offer a suggestion? Could you start running these games with just a single pokemon? Its hard to watch two side by side screens...just my opinion...these videos are fine but could you add videos with jsut one pokemon running the games too? Also in my opinion, the longer the video the better....Jrose makes videos like that and they're good but just not long enough imo. Thanks for the consideration.
Thanks for the feedback. I do have pure solo runs on the channel too. This is my style for races, but I'll keep evaluating
Who's Cerebi?
That moment where you've lived in Japan too long and can no longer distinguish between L's and R's lol. Title fixed 😂
This is a great idea. Sadly there is only so much you can do with only gen 1!
I mean, I still love just a basic Gen 1 solo challenge, but it's nice to mix things up a bit
Mew
Mewl
Nice
Thanks
You spelled Celebi wrong.
I hope leaving the title wrong gets you more comments. When I see poktubers intentionally leave mistakes in just for comments I unsub. Plenty of fish.
Sorry, that was a pure brain fart on my part. I have been spelling it wrong for days apparently 😂 Fixed now
Comment
Nice!
Mew will win
Mewl is the one
1st comment
Legend!
The ammout of commercials on this is laughable. Imma dislike and not interest this channel.
Ads are set as usual here, so not sure why you'd see more than anyone else. But as always I have ad free options in the memberships or you can always go for YT Premium
I really dont like ur rules. Feels so unnatural and made up
I understand, not for everyone. Cheers