Which is faster? Super Minimum Battles Race - Alakazam Vs. Gengar
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- Опубліковано 6 вер 2024
- Super Minimum Battles means every legal skip in the game. Mewtwo did it in Yellow and Blue, but can any other Pokemon do it?
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~~Rules~~
-Solo Challenge: No other Pokemon in battle, no items in battle, no glitches exploits (other than badge boost glitch)
*IF starter faints, we can faint HM pokemon to blackout*
-No Vitamins
-0 DVs/0 IVs
-Must skip every legally skippable battle
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~~Scoring System~~
Scoring:
-Pokemon Starts with a score of 100 points.
-Minus 0.1 points per reset (10 resets = 1 point)
-Minus 0.25 points per optional battle (4 optional battles = 1 point)
-Minus 1 point per TM (Excluding Broken TMs)
-Minus 10 points per Broken TM (Double Team, Substitute, Mimic, Rest, Bide, Toxic)
For why these TMs are Broken, watch my Level 5 No EXP Solo Challenge Series, where even Bide helped Level 5 Pokemon Solo the ENTIRE GAME!
Playlist is here: • Level 5 Challenges
Process:
Every Pokemon goes through 3 separate tests:
1. Minimum Battles
2. No TMs
3. Optimization for score on the tier-list
Standard Rules:
1. 0 DVs/ 0 IVs (Worst Possible Stats).
2. No Items in Battle.
3. No Stat Boosting Vitamins (HP Up, Carbos, Iron, Calcium, Protein).
4. No other Pokemon in battle (HM Mules allowed outside of battle).
5. Timer STARTS when I select New Game, and ENDS when the Champion is defeated.
6. Required Battles are the 65 battles that cannot be avoided without glitches (See Jrose11's original Minimum Battles video.
7. Pokedoll Glitch is a glitch and therefore banned.
8. Brock Through Walls is banned.
9. Badge Boost Glitch is allowed without restrictions.
10. Save states for routing and catching HM Pokemon only.
11. No wild encounters, except to catch HM Pokemon.
~~Every Run has Unedited Live Commentary~~
Live Commentary Unedited:
KaZAAAM!: • Live Commentary - Alak...
ThrowShade: • Live Commentary - Geng...
~~Pokemart~~
Changing Starters:
-- Software: pokehacks.dabo...
-- Guide: • How to Start With Any ...
Software I Use:
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#pokemonyellow #pokémonchallenge #minimumbattles
Game: Hypnosis is 60% accuracy
Genger: Never misses one
He's pulling down the shade on everyone!
Sounds supersonic when used by any Pokémon but your own in gen 1 😂
@@RBYPokemonChallenges tbh gengar has a better coverage given by his moves pool but if hypnosis started to act normally he would have lost hands down
I blame Scott’s thoughts for making it so Pokémon content is for sleeping
Blame him.... I thank him. Has been my habit too for a while now lol
Yooo I'm in bed reading this trying to sleep lmao
Yoooo same!
Sleepy time RBY
I used to watch a lot of the binding of isaac to fall asleep ^^
The person just needs good commentary so I can imagine what happens
That legitimately makes me fall asleep easier ^^
This matchup would be very interesting in gen 2. Alakazam gets access to elemental punches giving him ultimate coverage. However, Gengar gets shadow ball and Giga Drain. Also with special split Alakazam got way squishier.
My guess is a much closer race.
For sure. I haven't figured out sequence breaks in Gen 2 to do anything similar to super minimum battles, but as a standard race, it sounds like an awesome idea!
Sadly, it isn't really.
Psychic is special, shadow ball is physical. Main STAB move is in favour of Alakazam. Alakazam learning all punches is an absurd point in its favour vs. Gengar.
Giga Drain (no clue why you included it) is a postgame move, meaning it has next to no merit for a pokémon to learn.
I'd say gen 1 actually is way more stacked in Gengar holding a candle to Alakazam, but gen 2 did everything possible to make Alakazam hilariously overpowered af.
@@youtube-kit9450 Gengar gets all the punches too, and Alakazam is still too min-maxed to succeed in this format in general. Also, Red's Snorlax can't hurt Gengar at all until it runs out of PP, while Alakazam can't hurt it unless it relies on the hilariously inaccurate Dynamic Punch off of base 50 attack or Nightmare on sleep turns (both of which Gengar is better at anyway). Espeon is a hurdle for Gengar, but it can still outspeed it and put it to sleep. "Quick fixes" like Mimic or Toxic are also out of the question.
Gengar can beat Red with Shadow Ball, Thunderbolt (Giga Drain if you're feeling greedy and lower power is good enough), Psychic and Dynamic Punch/Curse. For Snorlax to use Rest, it needs to take a lot of damage in the first place, so Nightmare would be redundant. Alakazam needs Dpunch, Thunder Punch, Psychic and Recover.
"No intentional glitches"
"Ghosts like pokedolls"
This appears to me to be a violation.
Mentioned in the intro... I agree its a glitch, but we use it because speedrunners swear it isn't and it fits the theme. And the violation was the insane Hypnosis luck of Gengar on the E4
I'd be curious to see something like max DV squirtle vs 0 DV blastoise or something along those lines, seeing if the DV's can compensate being a pre evolved form
Typically a max DVs unevolved form has stats very close to a 0 DVs fully evolved form, except in cases where a stat dramatically changes due to evolution
@@RBYPokemonChallenges yeah but that's why it'd be fun though the interesting part would be to find a line where the unevolved and fully evolved form have different enough movesets that it's not just like running the same pokemon.
Maybe it's a bad idea though =p
I have alluded to it in separate videos, for example comparing Ivysaur and Venusaur, that unevolved forms get level up moves faster, so they sometimes outperform their evolved counterparts in no TMs runs. That would be a factor that could make it really interesting - not only unevolved versus evolved with different DVs, but also banning TMs.
I think the pokedoll glitch is a glitch too. I understand it makes you run away from battle, so it does its intended effect. However, when you run from the Ghost Marowak, it is intended to stay there until its defeated. Thus the Pokedoll is doing something its not supposed to do there. It's supposed to run from battle, but not run from THAT battle and then count it as defeated.
I think anything that breaks the storyline of the game is a glitch. You're subverting the intended path of the game, that's exactly what a glitch is for.
I agree, I still feel Pokedoll is a glitch. I use it here for the theme of the run, which is finding ways to eliminate battles, but my opinion on its status as a glitch is unchanged.
The other sequence breaks - trading in an HM Pokemon or transferring a fresh water, on the other hand, are features that game freak intentionally built into the franchise, so those are working exactly as game freak intended
@@RBYPokemonChallenges do we know for sure it is glitching? like the code could be missing a simple check like at the start of the pokedoll use routine something like this: "if encounter = marowak then jump to "run away" code".
the fact the pokedoll doesn't check for speed when running away means it at least skips some of the code from the run option. Who knows ... maybe there's a specific flag triggered there and not on doll use ... and that flag is checked to see if you have to remove the encounter. I don't know, just throwing an idea here.
@@scarlet_sonicI like your optimism but I’m afraid I don’t share in it. I mean, we have the Missingno glitch, the dig / fly + paralysis glitch, the trainer fly glitch, the badge boost glitch, the 1/256 chance to miss a 100% accurate move, the item duplication glitch, the fact that if you save on cycling road and then start a new game both the bike and surfing are disabled in your new game… and I’m just scratching the surface here with all the bugs and glitches in gen 1. So I’m skeptical that the Pokedoll glitch was an intended mechanic and not just another programming oversight, but I guess I’d have to look at the source code to know for sure one way or the other.
@@SSJ_Derp for me at least, there is a diffrence between intended behaviour and glitching. While the "pokedoll glitch" as you saydoesn't make sense story wise, the item and the game behave the usual way. All the while you do have badge boosting which is unintended but inevitable. There is a line between intended behaviour (pokedoll ending the fight) and unitended stuff (what I call glitch, missingno being the poster child for it). Whilme yeah it's nonesense for the doll to work story wise, the game doesn't glitch at all there. it just behaves the way it was programmed. At least, that is what I think. From what you can see and test empirically, that' "glitch" isn't one for me.
Your channel is amazing I like how you do 0dvs while every other channel is as fast as possible with the best possible Pokemon. It makes for a very different experience.
Zero DVs is definitely a big handicap. I always try to show the worst case scenario which then can hopefully serve as a baseline. Lots of potential improvements to these runs if you ever want to try yourself!
Alakazam's lack of super-effective coverage and sleep as well as its too min-maxed stats were its undoing.
The former is pretty obvious, but the latter is also true. Min-maxed pokemon are competitively sought-after because they're less likely to get outclassed by something else that can fill the same role/niche better. If they're fast and powerful glass cannons, they're also great in most single player casual or challenge runs. However, in **this** format, you have no DVs and little stat experience to pad your stats, so your lower stats could get dangerously low while your normally high stats can't get that high. In this case, the result is a dangerously physically frail mon that doesn't hit hard enough to get through the hardest obstacles, and doesn't have a quick fix in the form of good coverage either.
While Gengar is also physically frail, it's **just** bulky enough to get by, exceeds Alakazam even in terms of special bulk thanks to unpadded superior HP, and has Thunderbolt to defeat Lorelei. Its poison type is also good for messing with the AI and getting more opportunity for safe sleep.
This is absolutely true. I think people fail to realize that due to individual weaknesses and or lack of coverage, there are only non-niche Gen 1 OU Pokemon that are even decent in Yellow Version solo runs - Starmie, Slowbro, Cloyster, and Gengar. Everything else either has a terrible starting moveset that makes the Brock section terrible, a typing that is destroyed by a major wall later on. Hypno actually outclasses Alakazam in this format.
Okay, I'll try to do a prediction...
Alakazam is fast and can one-shot most enemies once it picks up Psychic, but Gengar's advantage of being immune to Normal-type moves, which are omnipresent in early game and still have a presence all the way to the Elite 4, and access to sleep with Hypnosis for dangerous battles should not be understated. Still I believe Alakazam's STAB on Psychic will stay relevant later on and Gengar needing two or more hits will be a defeat of a thousand cuts. So yeah, I'm predicting an Alakazam win.
Well I was wrong. Gengar's better defensive typing really pushed it ahead.
The biggest factor is Hypnosis, which is terribly broken in Gen 1 and better coverage, as well as basically getting auto-wins on Bruno, Lance and several Pokemon on the other teams
Two videos of RBY Pokemon Challenges on Sunday, This will take a while. I think with this through we need Pokemon with good level up moves. Mewtwo doesn't have good level up moves apart from Psychic and Barrier
Yeah, Mewtwo is messed up due to its lack of level up moves. I am interested to test other Pokemon on the tierlist, especially Poliwhirl and Weepinbell
I love solo challenge videos. Each solo challenger offers a unique experience for viewers. Great video my guy!
Glad you enjoy it!
and to think gengar passed up on dream eater and even found itself stuck at pokemon tower for a bit
Yeah, I could have gone Dream Eater in hindsight, we basically outspeed everything, so it is actually quite good in that situation
What a great watch! And while the US peeps go to sleep, EU gang here can enjoy the show \o/
That is awesome!
awesome video. love seeing my purple boy shine. minor nitpick tho, the gengar rival fight around 40 minute mark audio was a little ahead of the video
Hypnosis - 60% of the time, it works every time!
Facts
Being how fast Gengar is it gets heaps of crit chance in the first gen, add that to the typing and coverage and Gengar is just stupid good
Agreed, it is truly OP in Gen 1
Can you modify moves so special attack moves won't cause burns / paralyze / freeze? Since physical attacking moves don't have any of those effects expect Body Slam having chance to paralyze, it's quite unfair imo since with Ice Punch / Blizzard / Ice Beam, you have chance to freeze opponent's pokemon and get free win if normally it would be difficult pokemon to beat.
If it's possible to remove effects from those moves (Or make new moves that has same powers as original moves that pokemon could learn, but no special effects like chance to freeze / burn / paralyze), then can you try challenge with that modification in next challenge with High special pokemon using physical and high physical pokemon using special attacks?
I could use gamehook to lock out status conditions on opponents. Could be a fun challenge to try.
@@RBYPokemonChallenges Thanks for answering.
This man is the goat of audience interaction
No worries. I have a bunch of run ideas to work with, but I think a no status run would be incredible.
Gen 2 Alakazam with the elemental punches wipes the floor with the Gen 1 version. Type coverage is a big deal!
It's definitely something to test - how much better is Alakazam with elemental punches?
I wonder how much better Alakazam could do if it had access to just Thunderbolt.
If it had any special coverage whatsoever, it's God-Tier
The only big skips are in the early game really, the ss anne and nugget bridge, in gen 2 it wouldnt matter much i believe, you skip like the kimono girls and thats it. Nice runs as always :D
Yeah, Gen 2 doesn't really have skips to speak of outside of that. Storyline is too linear. Here in Gen 1 we cut out the Rock Tunnel as well and the trainers blocking Vermillion, so it's a considerable handicap in the mid-game, but not enough EXP loss to stop us in the late game.
I really like the Super Minimum Battles concept! I wonder how many Pokemon can actually pull it off.
I am in the midst of exploring that right now. I think there are a whole host of Pokemon that can do and even more that could do it if they only have a little help for Brock
I'd imagine Misty could be an big issue for some too. I know you prefer to avoid Bide, but it could be useful there.
Now for Mega Minimum Battles with Gen 2 Tradebacks Alakazam would probably win that one.
There will be some further experimentation with this... Starting with standard mons, but some Gen 2 Tradeback runs are bound tm happen as well
I'm binging all these super minimum battles runs now. I need to try this for myself
Yeah its a lot of fun. I am going to be doing a bunch of these to test before going back for individual Pokemon to optimize.
This was a great video! Did you disable channel memberships? Do you only do Patreon now?
Thank you! I have both Patreon and channel memberships
When you face Misty with alakazam we can see that you have 1 optional battle. So it's not a super minimum battle anymore. The same goes for gengar.
This is because of how my overlay counts battles, which is based on Pokemon Yellows indexes. Unedited live commentaries are in the description if you want to confirm, there are no optional battles in either run
Oh ok I did not know. Fair enough
I don't think I mentioned it in the video, which is my bad. I talked about it in the Mewtwo Super Minimum Battles race iirc
You can get into Cycling Road without a bike by just holding left. It’s no worse than the Pokédoll glitch, really.
I was just thinking how i wanted another rby video to watch
Glad to deliver!
I knew Tangela blue is actually good for min runs due to bind.
We shall see
How are the graphics gen 2 but the gamplay and story gen 1?
Gen 2 recolor patch. www.romhacking.net/hacks/1385/
16:53 I'm here as of right now. Not sure how this'll go but I'm leaning towards gengar. Can't wait to see how it ends!
For sure. The early-game is very close between these two!
I adore the gen 2 art style in these videos
That is a patch for emulators, Can't be done on real hardware
Theoretically you could put the patched ROM file on an after-market cartridge and it's supposed to work
@@RBYPokemonChallenges Have to have technical knowledge to do that through
True
Despite the fact that i think all of those are glitches, I'm glad Gengar got it's flowers.
??? Which are glitches now? Except Pokedoll, that is clearly a glitch, I just used it because speedrunners 😂
Could the Pokedoll glitch just be an issue with an oversight regarding ending the battle with an item?
From what I understand, the code works sort of backwards compared to what you might expect. You’d think the game would just wait for you to KO the ghost Marowak and then remove the encounter after you do, and if it did that then the Pokedoll glitch wouldn’t work. Instead, it checks to see if you either lose to Marowak or run away, and keeps the encounter there in either of those cases. But the Pokedoll doesn’t count as “running away” because it’s a special procedure that skips all the checks that normally happen when you try to run. So the game sees you exited the battle, and you didn’t lose or run, so it counts as a “win”.
I didn't know that was how the check worked, but sounds perfectly like Game Freak 😄
What is the „meet rival“ remix that plays, when he fights against the Rival?
It's just called Blue's Theme, but I forget which version I took it from
I found it, it is the Blue Appears from Sun and Moon
Good timing, its sleeping time
ME TOOOO
Good timing indeed!
I just thought of something as I got out of the shower:
Yall know how there's the shorts youngster? Yknow.. hi I like shorts they're comfy and easy to wear?
But what if I told you there was a missed opportunity for a lass as well: hi I like skirts they're comfy and easy to wear!
Damn.... Skirts just didn't get the love from Gamefreak....
@@RBYPokemonChallengesI know that's right..
Super minimum battles seems fun to try out someday 😮. Gengar was dominating throughout the end game , because of hypnosis and the fact that it part poison type,gives it an advantage, because it messes the gen 1 good AI up which is always amusing to watch.😂😂😂 I think that one of the reasons we like gen 1 so much.
And like you've been mentioning Alakazam is good in competitive and a good team player ,but in solo runs it has to rely on its bulk and on raw power, basically to make it's way for victory.🤔 That's why it kind of struggled when it had face onter special tanks like itself and like Lorelei's pokemon.
I bet that Hypno and Victreebel can take that route of super minimum battles .😊
Hypno run is already edited and coming later this week. Victreebel will get it's shot!
@@RBYPokemonChallenges Wow nice I can't wait. You're doing a wonderful job on these challenges , keep it up.😁
How much difference would it make if Gengar was pure Ghost instead of Ghost/Poison?
Massive. Fewer opponents would be cheesed by the Poison typing, but it would also not have any true type weaknesses.
Competitively, Pure Ghost would be enormous.
I mean, it would still be weak to Ghost but the only damaging Ghost-type moves in gen 1 are Night Shade (which does fixed damage) and Lick (which is 30 base power) so… yeah, not exactly a huge concern there.
For Super Minimum Battles, shouldn't you always lose the lab fight if possible since you count EXP gain as a battle and the game continues regardless of if you win or lose there. So, technically, it's an optional battle to win (unless you only have attacking moved and just naturally outpace the rival)
I mean, Gengar could never lose that fight, so that wouldn't be very fair to have some Pokemon win and some lose
I guess that's fair. Though, I may just say Gengar can't do a minimum experience run cause of that, lol. It's interesting since some Pokemon also can't win the fight, though I don't think those mons can do super minimum either 🤣
I have a suggestion:
You can do a "minimum battles" and "minimum Pokedex" run with a Mew that has to learn all its HMs itself.
No other Pokemon is allowed to be involved. Probably start with Cut.
I did the HM Mewl run already, started with Flash, Strength, Surf and Fly (I chose not to teach Cut because it is just worse than Strength)
@@RBYPokemonChallenges Why do you type "Mewl"? I'd assume it was autocorrect, but you did it in the video, as well.
@@DFAnton HM Muel is a common term so Mewl is a pun with Mew
1:10 it wont because not only is charizard slower than alakazam, its also the weakest of the trio. side note, blastoise is one of the best pokemon for a solo run. venusaur is great too, but does not compare to how amazing blastoise movepool is, and the best part is, the only gyms that can offer any problem, have easily aquirable hard counters to them.(dig for surge, ice beam for erika).
The moveset of Blastoise in Red/Blue js pretty bad though with it's only good moves being special. Skull Bash gives 2 turns for KaZAAAM! to KO it, and withdraw is useless since we're a Special Attacker. Also, neither of these Pokemon get Dig on super Minimum battles (that trainer is locked out) and neither learns Ice Beam....
@@RBYPokemonChallenges there are a few things, first, the champ's blastoise doesnt have skullbash, he has hydro pump, blizzard and BITE. sure bite isnt amazing, but it can flinch, blastoise also has higher HP(not alot, but could make a diference), while both had the same special.
the real argument should've been, gyarados vs arcanine. as each have a one shot attack against alakazam.
I remember when i had my team i didnt have gengar nor alakazam i jad a hypno and it was a beast against both mons people wrre saying why hypno if you knew how to use him right it can be really strong which i did in battles
Hypno is up next, my friend... Stay rtuned!
Glad Gengar ended up winning, even with gen one pissing on Ghost type graves. Guessed the coverage thing would matter since I've been doing ghost only runs in all games so far. Funny enough I also don't get why people shit so much on hypnosis. Sure the chance isn't 80%+ or something, but it still hits most of the time.
Exactly. And the hypnosis hate drives me nuts, because it's just legitimately good strategy. It's been shown time and again on this channel that sleep strats outperform.
Of the 2 Alakazam is the easier one as long as it doesn't START WITH ONLY Teleport/Kinesis since BOTH don't DO ANY damage.
Yeah, this is Pokemon Blue so KaZAAAM! actually starts with Confusion and Disable
Gyarados can do it, would love to see it
I think Red/Blue Gyarados can definitely do it
Genger and Alakazam are the best possible? Better than MewTwo?
We already did Mewtwo, and the point is testing to see if any other Pokemon complete the challenge by taking two of the best Possible solo run Pokemon (after Mewtwo because it was already done)
Why not Mega Punch over Confusion on Mistys Starmie?
Alakazam's attack stat is weak enough that Mega Punch isn't much stronger, Mega Punch is less accurate, and Misty uses X Defend and Harden to increase defense. SO Mega Punch is not particularly useful there overall.
Damn it’s a good thing I have mad insomnia, I have to see how my boy Zam does
KaZAAAM! is here to try it's hand at these hardcore settings!
I am disappoint 😤
KaZAAAM! did his best but gen 1 is just too broken (also what was that hypnosis luck that was BS)
Yeah, in this context, sleep being so terribly broken in Gen 1 is stronger than anything KaZAAAM! can muster. Alakazam still wins in a 1 v 1 of course, and it likely crushes in GEn 2 onward.
You should’ve dropped psybeam in the champion battle for toxic 59:47
Oh god.... Did I not put in the "no generic TMs" rule in this one.... RIP 😂
Do you think no TMs would have been possible?
With Gengar, yes. With Alakaza, no. It all comes down to Hypnosis,
Do hitmonlee vs hitmonchan (preferably gen 2 tho)
Worth a try at some point.
Could you not use toxic on enemy psychics?
Mentioned in the Mewtwo Video, but I'm trying to do these without Broken TMs. But certainly would be one strategy for getting throufh
I wonder how a Starmie would fare.
We are thinking the exact same thing! I am planning a Starmie vs Slowbro in this format. Let's see if they both can do it!
@@RBYPokemonChallenges sweet, can't wait to see if the bolt/beam coverage makes a difference!
Uhh dont need to see it psychic is god type in gen 1 ghost was okayyy but theres only one lol
You need to see it 😂
What are you using for the full color?
Gen 2 recolor ROM patch.
Versatility vs Raw Power
So Victreebell vs Nidoking next?
They couyld be very fun to try. I think Nidoking gets wrecks in Yellow, so it would have to be blue
Lol, if you didn't do the mental math on whether or not to badge boost with Gengar, you would have beaten 50 minutes. Dang
Yeah, I think this one is sub-40 with only basic optimizations
i didn't expect the whole comment section to be eepy
Everybody's bed time lol. Also, Gengar does know hypnosis. Sweet dreams.... would be a shame if somebody ate them....
32:40 and 34:15 looks like an editing error.. ope
Oof, I was checking for exactly that issue which I found on the Alakazam Rival 6 section.... Why!!!!
Basically, I put the footage on the timeline and size/crop it for the side-by side, but then I undo the position and crop when I focus in on one Pokemon. SO I have to just remove the changes at that time. I swear to god I went through all of those spots, but somehow that one slipped right past me. Damn Ghosts, always up to some mischief....
@RBYPokemonChallenges 54:16
Unless yall don't got pokemon center tier yet.. another one :(
Edit: 54:28 the crawl starts man
What are your thoughts on the bike glitch, it seems more like an oversight that you accidentally get an extra step, and not needing an elaborate setup to do like Brock thru walls
It would be interesting if you could fight Koga before Surge to see if routing would change for any super minimum runs
I know of the glitch, I just consider this to also be a glitch (same as Pokedoll) Might use it someday if it seems relevant
Nice
Why you post when im about to go to bed?? I know i wont be able to turn it off. No sleep for me
Sorry about that. It's mid-afternoon here in Japan, so I wasn't thinking about that!
That's ok, I'll take a video when I can get it!
k
k
Go to bed RBY lol
I would, but it's 5:30 PM here in Japan lol
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Legends, the both of you!