When I first met you nearly 20 years ago now, that is about the first lesson you gave me. Then, I bought a Rega P2 with a $98 Grado Red cartridge. I then upgraded to the Nottingham Horizon SE which you had a Benz Silver cartridge on that was about 1/3 the cost of the table, a little more than the 5 to one ratio of the Rega but sounded excellent. You know the table and cart that I just bought. The cart is about 1/5 the cost of the table. Everyone who has heard the combination has absolutely raved about the cartridge. I think it proves your point that they believe the cartridge sounds as good as it does because the table and arm help it to sound the best that it can sound. Thanks for the CLEs in Turntableology.
Glad to hear from you and remembrances of past efforts. A lot of folks have given me crap over the years about my views on turntables and yet, I have yet to have anyone demonstrate to me otherwise. Then, there are the whispers I get to read that I enjoy reading. I am rather reminded of a quote from George Burns in the 1980s. "If you hang around long enough, you become new again."
What an eye-opening video! Everything you say makes perfect sense. If you don't have the proper foundation everything spent will default to the lowest component.
The other difficult part when heritage dealers face the flood gates of distribution is that the quality of their demonstrations are often poor leading customers to think lowly of the product itself. Then, if I try to present it, I am shut down almost immediately. I have had that experience too many times. Thank you for taking the time to add you comment to this video and my channel. Enjoy looking through my other 175 videos and tell others about them. Always delighted to get more subscribers.
Best thing i ever did was buy a wall shelf to get my turntable completely isolated from the floor. It's a game changer, particularly if you have a suspended floor. You are spot on about vibration, it's a killer of good sound. I have a Nagaoka MP150 (about $400) on my VPI Prime and it sounds superb
I've used a Target Wall Shelf Table for 30yrs now & that is one of the best things I've ever bought to make my reasonably good sounding system which I have upgraded over the yrs but you will not get a better Item than a Wall Mounted Table.
I’m very glad I came across your video because what you outlined here is what I’ve asked dealers and in various online forums but always feel like I am shot down as crazy believing a lesser cartridge may be better for certain types of music. Particularly rock type albums where the recording was not done with HIFI in mind. Given someone actually understands what I mean I would greatly appreciate your opinion here. I have a Technics 1200G currently with a Hana ML that is reaching the end. Is there is “lesser” cartridge you might suggest that would be a good match? Thanks!!
The Hana is a fine cartridge for sure. Let me outline my thoughts for you. 1. Many people buy expensive cartridges for low quality turntables. In your case, I'll reference something like the Technics SL-D2 budget table. An AT cartridge would be fine. 2. Cartridge purchases are also based upon the condition of the table itself. If the table is old and worn (like most Thorens tables I have seen) with the main bearing flattened because they moved it around either in a car or shipping without raising the inner platter with paper towels or cardboard (or using transport locking screws which is found on most Technics DD tables), OR that the counterweight was left on the tonearm during transit resulting in damage to the tonearm gimbal assembly (wobbly arm because the bearings got flattened), THEN an inexpensive cartridge again. 3. It is not because an expensive cartridge is "bad" but rather that because of mechanical issues, you won't get the most value out of the purchase. Under optimal conditions, wonders happen. So, I use to demonstrate a $50 cartridge on my best table vs a $1500 cartridge on a lesser table. The $50 sounded more musical in rhythm and pitch consistency. An analogy would be putting a great tire on a bent rim vs a moderate tire on a good rim. So, in your case, we cannot check the main bearing because of the way the motor is built. So, we have trust history on that. Then, it comes to the arm and its condition. I did a video on that as well and it is done very gently. I try to move the arm forward and back directly from the headshell to the gimbal. Then, I try to rotate the arm clockwise and counter-clockwise with an equally gentle twist. If you can fee a sort of click or slop, then the tonearm is toast. Now, this applies to standard tonearms, not uni-pivots, tangential trackers (which are always a mess) or other specialty arms. If those are all good, you are free to run the gamut on cartridges. One of the wonderful things about a 1200G is that the VTA (vertical tracking angle) is adjustable which opens up the range of cartridges you can use. Hanas are good along with the Ortofons. One of the standard cartridges used by Technics for years on their lower tables were Audio Technicas. Now the weight of the arm and the compliance of the cartridge should be watched. I am not personally well versed with the 1200G but I think some audio groups could let you see which ones to avoid. I like the ATs for the liveliness and taunt bass but some prefer the tonal nature of Hanas. This is where it can be rather personal. Now, the other thing you should consider is getting a second headshell which would allow you to switch out cartridges (remember to adjust VTA if necessary) for different albums of different conditions. Thus, you don't take time off a great cartridge by playing budget records that are not in the best of condition. Watch out for re-issues regardless of the 180 gram pressing. Some of those sound like mass market cassette tapes. Original pressings of older material is generally best. See my video on Streaming vs. Vinyl. I hope this helps you along. I really like the idea of a second headshell/cartridge option.
Thank you for taking the time to respond and sharing your knowledge and expertise! Very interesting to hear people preferred a $50 cart on a higher end TT. I do have a 2nd Headshell which currently has a Nagaoka mp200. For my higher end cart I used to have a 2M black but just couldn’t ever get it to sound right. Lots of chatter online about that one and the setup but I just gave up. I then went to the Hana which I do like a lot. I was thinking of trying a sumiko starling which is even more expensive but I have reservations based on what we are discussing here.
Finally! A price equivalent comparison to tonearm and table. I agree in pointing out a cost limit to player and arm. Barring diy mods your video is spot on brother!
Thank you for taking the time to comment. Some of this goes back to years gone by where the phono cartridge and the speaker, because they are mechanical in motion, were given the highest priorities. Much of that carried forward into an age where extraordinary costly designs were made available without a complete understanding by the consumer of the entire picture. I had a lot of fun taking a $50 Linn cartridge on an Ekos tonearm and burying a Troika ($2000) on an Ittok just to prove the point. I am sure there are other examples where this could be done as well. There's very little difference in results between a Kodak Instamatic camera and a Leica in an earthquake or most digital cameras as well.
Adrian, please tell me about your turntable. The brand and if the arm was purchased separately, the brand of it. That will allow me to google your turntable and read about it. Otherwise, I am only guessing which is not the way to do things. It is likely that you have a better table than many of the budget ones offered today. So, let's start with that information. Thank you for taking the time to ask an important question for others to follow.
Hi. Thank you for putting a different perspective out there. What you are saying makes a lot of sense. I am pretty new to turntables and recently bought an old Technics SL-23A and am in need of replacing the cartridge. Do you have any advice on where I stand with such a turntable, in terms which cartridges might be too much for it. Some recommendations would also be great. Where do you stand in this regard with phono amplifiers? Thank you!
I would recommend a basic Audio Technica cartridge, say like the AT-VM95E for around the $65 mark. That will do nicely. I believe your reference to a phono amplifier is better known as a phono preamp. We work, ourselves, with two different ones, either from Rega or from Cambridge Audio. Both sell for around $200. I am sure there are others out there, likely less expensive but these two are nice and very effective. It all depends upon how deep one wants to get into this source of music.
First off, thank you for a simple yet well considered comment. I appreciate the effort to comment. Well, certainly having the right mechanical match between arm and cartridge is essential. This often comes into play with tonearms that are separately purchased. That said, most cartridges that are purchased are going on some OEM mass produced tonearm on a similarly produced turntable and usually with a removeable headshell. For example, a $600 phono cartridge on a 50 year old Technics SL-1500 is a terrible waste of money. Sadly, some hot review comes out on a cartridge and suddenly everyone has to have one regardless of the facts. I've seen this time and time again.
@@audibleeleganceinc Thanks for the awesome response. I don’t know a lot about turntables. Logically thinking, I would think that the main bearing needs to have very smooth operation in order to not transmit vibrations, the platter would need to be relatively heavy in order to maintain a proper and exact rpm with a great motor behind it, the vinyl would need to be isolated from the platter with a rubber or cork mat to stop transferring of vibrations. After that is all done, I’m thinking the tonearm would need to dampen vibrations quickly, the wiring should be top grade , and the cartridge should be of highest quality. Lastly, the electrical and magnetic fields should not interfere from the motor and signal from the cartridge. Is that what makes for a great sounding vinyl rig?
In many ways, you are correct. However, I have seen some very clever ways around various issues. Take, for example, the use of a magnetically lifted platter system where there is no contact between the main bearing and what is called a thrust plate. Then it is reduced to side wall friction which traditional designs also have. As for tonearms, some tables follow the damping approach while others redirect that vibration energy away to another spot. You are spot on about magnetic interference as for years we could not mount cartridges like Grado on Technics direct drive tables without it gloriously humming along as you got near the motor. You also have variations between suspended tables and those of solid plinths with the traditional thinking that sprung was better. Well, maybe is my answer and my two best turntables have no suspension at all. Most that do have suspension are a mess or have "pretend" suspensions. Linn is quite correct about tuning and to my horror, I have come to realize that older Thorens turntables are not "turn-key at all" but also must be tuned. But nobody pays attention to that with them. So, you have a good basic understanding of tables but there are also different approaches. The best thing to do is to listen to it and decide whether or not it actually plays music musically correct. I have done videos on that as well as I will pick fights with audiophiles who look for tonal qualities and pay no attention to the music itself.
@@audibleeleganceincThank you so very much for your interesting information. I appreciate you taking the time to share your wisdom and knowledge and experience with me. You are correct, the best way to determine what piece of equipment to purchase, is by listening and trusting our ears. In theory, sometimes a piece of gear might ( on paper ), be better or even have better specifications, but I’ve learned that over the years, sometimes in practice, real world listening experiences tell me something different. 😊
I’ve been advising many folks in the hi-fi group I belong to on their journey into spinning records. “Records” ought to give you some idea of my age! I agree with Lou here, it’s about understanding the design philosophy being pursued by the manufacturer. Some go the route of mass loading, making everything extremely heavy in order to make it hard for vibrations to agitate the system. Others, like Rega, go in exactly the opposite direction, with each successive model using more exotic materials to reduce weight, increase rigidity and increase natural resonance damping properties. Finally, there is the closed loop suspended sub-chassis designs, such as Linn. The point in these is to isolate the external vibrations through the tuned suspension, but then ensure that any vibration that is present in one part of the suspended sub-chassis, is present throughout, meaning zero relative movement between the cartridge and the record surface. In this instance, the bearings in the platter and arm are not in fact insulating the system from vibration but transmitting it to ensure it is consistent throughout. Many people buy modifications to their turntables from companies that take no account of the design philosophy that the original manufacturer was pursuing. Virtually every so called upgrade I’ve seen for a Rega turntable falls into this category, from alternative sub-platters with spindles made of soft metal, to great lumps of steel plonked on the record to ‘clamp’ it down. I met Roy Gandy in Bristol last weekend and he is a man who knows exactly what he is doing. My choice is a Linn, however I also have a Rega with a MM cartridge which I use to test the phono stages of the amps I restore. Anyway, to the point of your video, I couldn’t agree more. I’ve just landed a new Goldring E3 for my son-in-law and it will make a fantastic upgrade for the Rega Carbon cartridge on his P1. But that’s as far as he should go in my view. I’ve already sourced a genuine P3 glass platter, which made a big difference to the already fine standard platter.
I am principally referring to inexpensive tables like Technics SL-D2 and that sort of product. As you work with older tables, then the question becomes the condition of both the main bearing and the horizontal and vertical bearings in the tonearm itself. So, look at the video where it discusses checking the tonearm bearings. If there is play in it in either plane, then the arm does not justify an expensive cartridge. With direct drive tables, you can not access the main bearing at all so the history of the table becomes very important. If the platter was left on the table and it was shipped or moved in a car, there is a reasonable chance the bearing is damaged. (The same holds true when moving any turntable, honestly.) It's like this: Putting great tires on bent rims is not going to give you the full benefit of the investment in great tires. In both cases, you are talking about one of the few parts of a system that wears out more quickly than most other parts of the system. Thus, I can not speak as to your turntable itself as there are questions unanswered.
Ok so I'm looking very much into upgrade the Ranier on my Debut Carbon Evo. I have the Acryl-It platter, I'm ordering the aluminum sub platter, and I'm probably grabbing the ISOAcoustics platform or putting it on Orea feet. (I love to tinker and upgrade, I know at this point I could have saved another 6-8 months and gotten something for 1-1.2k but this makes me happy. I'm planning on running this config out for quite a long time until I ultimately upgrade to a big boy table. All this is running through a Sony STRDH190 (next part of my upgrade) I'm mulling the obvious choices - Moonstone or Wellspring, OR, spending the extra cash and stepping up to the Amethyst for the nude line-contact stylus.
I am unfamiliar with nearly everything you have mentioned in terms of having both seen and heard it. Sorry, but I sincerely cannot comment about your plans. Best wishes.
Nice video. What do you think about putting a Ortofon Cadenza Blue MC on a P6 or a Project Classic Evo? Right now they are equipped with an Exact MM and Quintet Red MC, respectively. Thank you.
An honest and sincere question. As I have no experience with the Project Classic Evo, I honestly can not comment. The Rega P6 can be purchased with an Ania moving coil so it is suitable for such cartridges. The cartridge you have suggested is, here in the states, more expensive than the table itself and that throws up a flag to me. The cartridge will work most likely although I have not done it myself. I don't know the exact results. The reason for the hesitation is that the P6 is simply outclassed by the P8 and both turntables represent long term investments. Cartridges, on the other hand, are not. Their useful life is between 400 to 600 hours (if we are talking peak performance and no record damage) and an out of the box life of 3 to 4 years (if we are talking peak performance, again.) So, if we are talking a new turntable purchase, I would be more inclined to a P8 and a lesser cartridge. The net is greater. If you are talking about replacing an older cartridge on an existing turntable, then Ortofon may well be a good choice but how far up their line also becomes a function of the quality of the phono preamp. Keep in mind that a change over to an Ortofon from a Rega cartridge is going to require a bit of adjustment to the cartridge tags as the male pins on Ortofon cartridges are a different diameter than those on Regas. Hopefully this gives you some guidance and some thoughts about what you might do.
Thank you for taking the time to contribute to the channel. There are over 180 other videos to enjoy as well. Please tell others about this site and maybe they too will find something useful.
As these were often sold with Audio Technica cartridges, I would stay with them as it is more likely to have the proper geometry. Since the VTA can not be adjusted in the Akai, the height of the Audio Technica, like the AT95E is likely best suited for your needs. They sell for around 60 to 70 dollars.
I am unfamiliar with both your Thorens as well as the amplifier. It appears that the Thorens often is supplied with the AT95. You might look into either a Ortofon or Grado but I can not be any more specific than that. Sorry, so many products one can not know them all.
What about vintage turntables? Do you factor the original cost back when it was new or the resale price? I have a Pioneer PL 514x that cost me 160 euros with a Shure M75 6s and a Hi track needle. This TT cost was 100 dollars back in 1977, which adjusted by inflation is somewhere around 500 dollars of today. So which price should I take into account? I want to upgrade to a VM95ML which costs 180 euros (headshell + cartridge + needle) but now you made me second guess. I don't want to have a worse sound, what should I do?
Inflation does not take into consideration wear and tear on what is now a 30+ year old table. So, toss that approach out. Then, we have two main issues. One, if the table has had continuous use over that time period, it is likely that the bearing is worn naturally. If the table was moved with the platter on and not lifted of the thrust plate, the bearing is likely done. As I don't know how the table has been treated, I certainly would not consider it new at all. More towards the worn side and perhaps worse. Then, there is the tonearm. IF there is movement in either the horizontal or vertical plane, the arm is shot. The way to tell this is to very gently push and pull on the tonearm itself. If you feel play, then those bearings are done for. Then very gently twist the arm in a clock wise and counter-clockwise motion. If you feel play there again, those bearings are shot. It that case, buy a cheaper cartridge. Fundamentally, you will not get the real benefit of a better cartridge because it will sense and play back all the errors in the table along with the music. See my video on inspecting tables. So, where you go with a cartridge depends upon the condition of the table. I think 180 euros is a bit much, regardless.
@@audibleeleganceinc Thanks for the reply! The TT is in excellent condition, I have no idea who owned it before but he/she took very good care of it. Even the original feet are intact (and in this particular model they are prone to decompose). The dust cover is also original and it's immaculate, except for two minor scratches. I checked what you said about the tonearm and I cannot sense play at all. When I got it I oiled the motor and lubricated the spindle (even though it moved freely for about a minute and a half without the belt and with a very little push). I was really lucky, my guess is this TT was rarely used or very well taken care of. Nevertheless I'll try a cheaper cartridge, maybe the VM95E which is 80 euros for the whole combo (stylus, cart and headshell). Thanks for taking time to answer, great videos!
@@Groucho3321 Thank you for letting me know what you are working on. Many times my advice goes out into the air with nary a response. Glad you checked the arm as about half the time the arms are toast. Please do tell others about our channel and maybe they will subscribe. There are over 180 other videos with many more coming shortly.
@@Groucho3321 You are most welcome and thank you for the comments. It's always a changing world and maybe I am a little behind on a few things. Always good to learn.
Yeah you're definitely right on this one and this really needs to be said more often! Especially with all the quality issues of new records these days, that "bad details retrieval" can definitely be an issue... the more revealing a cartridge is, the more you come to the conclusion that record pressing quality has gone massively downhill since the vinyl revival started! I think the best price ratio is somewhere around 2/3 for turntable/arm and 1/3 cartridge, so the cartridge about half the price of the complete turntable with arm included. Unless you're running an aftermarket tonearm that's purchased during or post-covid, because those have skyrocketed in price and have even outpaced the price increases of anything else in HiFi. So those aftermarket tonearms are overpriced and because of that, their price can't be reliably used as a guideline.
Very sensible advice. Although I have a modern Linn Sondek I only use the Adikt MM cartridge on it because as you said it needs the stylus replacing every year due to wear and the cost does build up over time. On my other turntables I use MM as well but something not as expensive such as a Linn K9 which takes ATVM95 stylus’s which are very adequate for the table/arm combination.
Thank you for taking the time to contribute to our channel. I do try to be sensible about things in a pretty non-sensible world of which this is a very small part. Please take the time to subscribe and tell others about this channel. With 125 videos produced and over 200 more planned, I am sure there will be plenty of things that others might find useful. Thank you, again.
Well, very expensive tires will likely improve the performance of a heap of trash car. However, you will not get the total benefit out of the cost of those tires. They are limited by the heap of trash. Same basic principal. It's about getting the maximum performance for the least amount of dollars, really.
You have a pleasant enough belt drive table. I would not go to far in price for the cartridge and generally recommend an AudioTechnica for them. I think the Ortofons would be a bit too much for the table. Make sure you check that arm as I showed in other videos. If it is loose in the vertical or horizontal plane, the bearings are toast. In that case, you should keep the cartridge price under $50us. While we also sell Grado, I would shy away from those as you do not have the ability to adjust the Vertical Tracking Angle of the tonearm for proper set-up. Grado cartridges are fairly tall resulting in a slope towards the gimbal assembly. Thanks for asking a fun question as I have seen many many tables over the years. Please do subscribe and tell others about this channel. We have 175 videos up currently with many more planned.
Im of the same opinion that The table and tonearm are Are more important then the cartridge I use a at95e on my rega planer 2 And feel no desire upgrade the cartridge
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I am particularly fond of AudioTechnicas on Ittoks as, I believe, they made the moving magnet range for Linn. I have a Linn K18 MkII that came in on such a combination and it is truly wonderful. Long discontinued, I believe. You could also consider a Hana cartridge as we have had some nice results with those. No experience with Ortofons on an Ittok so you would have to ask around on that one. Depending upon where you are, as this is an international format, you might also look about for a Benz Micro Silver or the likes. Obviously, my advice has to be balanced against the version of the LP12 and the condition of the Ittok II tonearm. Sometimes spending a little money on new springs and grommets can prove to be most beneficial. Those grommets made of rubber do age. I also do not know if you have the original one side finished armboard or the the later ones that were laminated. So, an armboard upgrade would be valuable too. I have done a few videos on LP12s and you might want to look though those as well. So, that's the best I can suggest with the little information that I have.
@@audibleeleganceinc It is an early table serial # in the 23,000 range It's all stock with the Valhalla board Ittock arm, and it seems ok, I had some new caps put in, springs, grommets and belt when I bought it and was looking to replace my LOMC that just lost 1 channel what I can surmise as a internal wire failure, hence your timely video.
@@carlwinslow4175 You are most welcome. I think my recommendations, then, are pretty much on target. With the way cartridge prices have gone, I think you comfortable in the 400 to $800 range. You might want to take a look at the AudioTechnica OC9 as well.
The P6 can, in fact, support the Ania Pro quite nicely. Given that the next step up for a better table, the P8 is quite a bit more, the Ania would be a suitable choice. Otherwise, we are stretching the budget to get to a P8 with a Exact, if we follow the hierachy. The only other element that comes into play, then, is the quality of the phono stage where some folks do not have a moving coil input.
@@audibleeleganceinc Thank you for the response. That's how I landed on my P6 in the first place. I was only going to buy the P3 but once I added the outboard power/speed control and the Exact cartridge, it was only a few hundred more to get the superior plinth & subplatter on the P6. I only wish I'd known about your store before I purchased. Columbus doesn't seem to have a Rega dealer any more and I thought the closest to me was in Toledo. Edit: You posted your second response as I was typing this. I would certainly love to hear the Ania Pro when I do come down for a visit. My Exact is only about a year old at this point but when it comes time to replace it, I'd prefer to buy local.
I bought a new tonearms for my fully KAB upgraded and modified SL1200 M3D. The bearings were shot on my old one. Before installing the new one, I rewired it with Cardas wires. It wasn’t a bid deal. I run either my DL103r or Nagaoka MP-200 cart, with a Tavish phono stage, but have a cartridge collection of around 30 of em all mounted to headshells. Besides records, carts are a fun hobby to me. Nothing over $1,000 or so. The headshell is of course removable. I don’t believe I am an idiot for doing any of this, but you apparently think differently….
I am merely explaining the risks. If you want to experiment and enjoy the hobby, then it's your money and records. You are always free to whatever you wish.
@@audibleeleganceinc Yeah, I know, man. I was just being a bit snarky and joking around. That’s the problem with comments sometimes, is that the inflection is unfortunately lost. I enjoy hearing your point of view.
@@NickP333 Yes, that is really the problem with text type messages. Not only are the inflections lost but you can not see the face of the person. Both delivery messages. That's why so many youngsters get into trouble with the internet. A 58 year old guy would never net a young girl. Then, on some, even with videos, humor is lost as well. I try to spice my videos with a bit of that here and there. By the way, the videos are shot 50's style. There are no scripts, teleprompters, or retakes unless I catch myself saying something either unclear or, once in a while, simply stupid. So, my early ones which are being repeated right now show how awkward I was at doing them with all the UMMMMs which I caught hell for and rightly so. We are doing a lot of reissues right now as all my attention is towards my wife who now has been in the Cleveland Clinic Cardiac ICU for 115 days hoping for a 2nd heart transplant as the first heart is now failing after 4 very difficult years. I spend much of my time traveling from Virginia where I live to there while also maintaining her horse farm. So, when you hear UMMMs, well, those are early ones.
@@audibleeleganceincHey, Lou. I unfortunately missed seeing this comment of yours. Audio is of course mostly a hobby, and it’s family and friends that truly matter. I am so sorry to hear about your wife, Lou. I mean that. Truly. What a terrible situation to be in. I very sincerely hope she receives the care she needs. I will say a prayer for her, which I already did, but will do more. I’ve seen the power of prayer work. In fact, I’ve witnessed and experienced some unexplainable things throughout my life that I don’t really share with anyone in fear of people thinking I’m nuts and getting locked up. God bless, Lou. 🙏🎶💜
@@NickP333 She received her second heart. Please see my observations on our website under Blog for September. She just got moved out of ICU and into a step-down unit where she will be for a couple more weeks, I suspect. Hopefully, nothing goes astray.
The compliance of the cartridge is important. No point a high compliance cartridge in a stiff low compliance arm . The stylus will pull one way . Use a low compliance cartridge in a high compliance arm the arm can vibrate in stead of the stylus worst case. See your hifi dealer don't just read the magazine and guess.
AMEN!!!!! Thank you for taking it one step further. We are constantly driven mad by reviews when a cartridge becomes "hot" and everyone wants to put it on anything that pivots. A really nice addition. There once was a great chart based out of the UK that did the match ups. I don't know if it is still around.
@audibleeleganceinc Back in early 80's I bought a dual channel graphic equaliser Because it was the latest thing. It ended up in the shed. One trick I have used on belt turntables The heavier, the better if you can't get a belt. Get a longer belt cut 2 cuts at 45 ° to required length, rejoin with bit of super glue. The 45 cut provides a gradual move over the motor pulley and max strength, unlike a 90 cut. And the heavy platter helps smooth out. My Garrard has been like this for last 10 years.
I agree on that cartridges is a lot of money if you change em consistently. I do disagree on your stance on for example a goldring elite or nagaoaka mp500 on a cheaper turntable and arm. I do not think they sound bad on a lesser expensive arm and TT.
Two elements: You do not get the full benefit of the investment. Put Formula 1 racing times on a Prius. Great tires and a waste of money. And yes, they will pick up things that are not part of the music and can add what is called sibilance to voice tracks. That's no fun.
@@Pointsbeingmade and there we are. I did these demonstrations years ago when I had 8 to 10 Linn LP12s on the floor. After demonstrations on exactly the same tables and different arms and quality, never had a taker for your position. I once believed as you do now but after 39 years of experience, and some miserable ones for myself in the prior 10 years, I will stand firm. But, we can respect each others position.
@@Pointsbeingmade No, not thankful but understanding. I had this wrong position for myself for 10 miserable years. My problem was the turntable itself, never the cartridge.
Well, I don't know the condition of the table bearing or tonearm. That said, I don't think you be hurting yourself with going with a basic Audio Technica cartridge.Grado's would likely be too tall resulting in an improper tracking angle as the Technics tonearm does not have the ability to change the vertical tracking angle.
@@AndrewDelman My concern, Andrew, is the height of the cartridge would result in an improper VTA. If you look at a tonearm on a record, the arm should be parallel to the record itself. The taller the cartridge, the greater the risk that the arm will look like it is sloping back towards the gimble assembly. That will throw both timing and tonality off. The AudioTechnica were a common cartridge when that table was made and often times came standard on the Technics tables. That's why I suggested it. The Ortofon is a fine cartridge but you would need to do some homework to make sure it fits properly.
My Stanton 680 worked fine on that turntable. The main thing is you don't want to use a light tracking cartridge ( in my case it just needs to be the right stylus my ELII stylus at 3 grams worked beautifully) . So anything that optimally tracks at 1.5 grams and high would be my suggestion having used this and other turntables with essentially the same tone arm. Unfortunately there are no new Stanton 680 cartridges and the replacement stylus is aftermarket. That being said I still hanging on to my Stanton moving iron cartridges. The Japanese aftermarket is good, but expensive. If I had to buy a new cartige it would mostlikely be a Nagaoka MP-110 and replace the stylus often. Or a Grado Black.
@@stevengagnon4777 It is a shame Stanton is no longer around. I owned many of them including the 680, 681 and the 881. So, I understand your attachment to it.
I mounted a $700 Ortofon 2M Black shibata stylus cart on a Rega P6, they work fabulously together and my vinyl-to-computer rips underscore the clarity and musicality I'm getting. BUT this turntable is only twice the cost of the cartridge, and I would do it all over again too.
Thomas, it was a fine choice. Keep in mind that I have to consider the world market and there's lots of folks who put $300 to $400 cartridges (and even more) on tables not worth $150. The Rega P6 is a quality turntable and it can support your purchase. Thanks for the time to write your comment. Rest assured, you are quite fine. Now a $600 cartridge on a P1 would be an entirely different matter. See the picture?
So what IS a reasonable amount of money to spend these days? What is the markup? What cartridges are well made what are less well made. What manufacturers represent value for money? lots of unanswered questions. Who can you trust for advice as noone offers demo's obviously. Those in the position to shed light never ever do, all the consumer gets is 'don't do this' or 'buy this jewel at £daft, it's better than your last. Shelter were cheap in Japan before the marketing markup machine sank their claws in. Now they are _literally_ 3 to 4 times the price.
Thank you for giving me another idea for a video to everyone around the world. I hope to do it very quickly as I travel north shortly from Virginia through my store in Cincinnati to Cleveland where I will meet up with my wife who just received her 2nd heart transplant after 4 difficult years with the first one. But let me answer your question as best I can which, quite honestly, is not much. Let me address one thing very quickly. Markup. If that changes what you buy, you are already on the wrong track. So, do you ask anyone how much money they make for everything you buy? Rather rude, actually. I guess I should start asking my customers how much money they make in order to decide what they can afford. That would send customers out the door very quickly and properly so. As for how much to spend, well that depends upon the quality of the turntable and condition. If it is a nice turntable with a tonearm that has been ruined, then certainly nothing over $100 US. That leads to another problem as I have viewers all over the world so I have no idea what is available to them or the market prices in their country. Who can you trust? Well, I am certainly not going to vouch for anyone that I do not personally know. That includes mail order houses who has who knows what answering questions. Just press the keyboard button, make your payment, and wait at home for it to be delivered for someone to mount it without the proper guides or tools. I see those messes all the time. It's this keyboard madness which has resulted in far fewer specialists who do know what they are doing because they can not make a decent living and are tired of giving service to people who have no intention of buying it from them anyway. See my video on how to steal from a brick and mortar store. You raise an interesting one in the concept of "value." The best answer I can give you for that one is to think about tires for your car. Some might be good value but are they appropriate? Similarly, depending upon how the cartridge is to be used or the conditions under which it will be used, the manufacturer might change. So, if one back-cues, Stanton comes to mind for their incredible durability. Others would be destroyed. You see, I have no idea how they intend to use a cartridge, what table, what condition, or even if their kids are going to use the turntable too. I have seen several great cartridges destroyed by young innocent hands. As for demos, we offer demos on some of the cartridges we sell but not all. There are multiple reasons for this. One, it would take a lot of turntables and as a retailer, would we be rewarded with the sale or would they simply haul off and mail order it? We stopped selling multiple brands of headphones for that very reason. Two, most people recognize that how a cartridge "sounds" on one table combination might not be exactly true on another. Similar, yes, exact, likely not because the turntable and tonearm themselves contribute to what is heard. Then, simply reality is that there are far more different models of turntables out there over 50 years than there are cartridges. There are simply too many permutations and combinations. We do our best to use our knowledge and experience accumulated over time to advise on cartridge purchases AND make sure they are properly mounted with special guides and tools. So, please understand that I am not bothered by your real frustration but I did want to take the opportunity to lay out for everyone why it is impossible to address specific needs for everyone everywhere. Oh, and let the specialist make his or her living so they will be there to answer your specific needs in the future. It's that simple. Those who offer the most knowledge and the most skill don't work for minimum wage or less.
When I first met you nearly 20 years ago now, that is about the first lesson you gave me. Then, I bought a Rega P2 with a $98 Grado Red cartridge. I then upgraded to the Nottingham Horizon SE which you had a Benz Silver cartridge on that was about 1/3 the cost of the table, a little more than the 5 to one ratio of the Rega but sounded excellent. You know the table and cart that I just bought. The cart is about 1/5 the cost of the table. Everyone who has heard the combination has absolutely raved about the cartridge. I think it proves your point that they believe the cartridge sounds as good as it does because the table and arm help it to sound the best that it can sound. Thanks for the CLEs in Turntableology.
Glad to hear from you and remembrances of past efforts. A lot of folks have given me crap over the years about my views on turntables and yet, I have yet to have anyone demonstrate to me otherwise. Then, there are the whispers I get to read that I enjoy reading. I am rather reminded of a quote from George Burns in the 1980s. "If you hang around long enough, you become new again."
What an eye-opening video! Everything you say makes perfect sense. If you don't have the proper foundation everything spent will default to the lowest component.
The other difficult part when heritage dealers face the flood gates of distribution is that the quality of their demonstrations are often poor leading customers to think lowly of the product itself. Then, if I try to present it, I am shut down almost immediately. I have had that experience too many times.
Thank you for taking the time to add you comment to this video and my channel. Enjoy looking through my other 175 videos and tell others about them. Always delighted to get more subscribers.
Excellent video; it clearly explains what I recently told (in a comment) to someone who "advises" on the opposite of what you say here...
Cheers!
Thank you for taking the time to contribute to the video. I really do appreciate the effort.
Best thing i ever did was buy a wall shelf to get my turntable completely isolated from the floor. It's a game changer, particularly if you have a suspended floor. You are spot on about vibration, it's a killer of good sound. I have a Nagaoka MP150 (about $400) on my VPI Prime and it sounds superb
I've used a Target Wall Shelf Table for 30yrs now & that is one of the best things I've ever bought to make my reasonably good sounding system which I have upgraded over the yrs but you will not get a better Item than a Wall Mounted Table.
I’m very glad I came across your video because what you outlined here is what I’ve asked dealers and in various online forums but always feel like I am shot down as crazy believing a lesser cartridge may be better for certain types of music. Particularly rock type albums where the recording was not done with HIFI in mind. Given someone actually understands what I mean I would greatly appreciate your opinion here. I have a Technics 1200G currently with a Hana ML that is reaching the end. Is there is “lesser” cartridge you might suggest that would be a good match? Thanks!!
The Hana is a fine cartridge for sure. Let me outline my thoughts for you.
1. Many people buy expensive cartridges for low quality turntables. In your case, I'll reference something like the Technics SL-D2 budget table. An AT cartridge would be fine.
2. Cartridge purchases are also based upon the condition of the table itself. If the table is old and worn (like most Thorens tables I have seen) with the main bearing flattened because they moved it around either in a car or shipping without raising the inner platter with paper towels or cardboard (or using transport locking screws which is found on most Technics DD tables), OR that the counterweight was left on the tonearm during transit resulting in damage to the tonearm gimbal assembly (wobbly arm because the bearings got flattened), THEN an inexpensive cartridge again.
3. It is not because an expensive cartridge is "bad" but rather that because of mechanical issues, you won't get the most value out of the purchase. Under optimal conditions, wonders happen. So, I use to demonstrate a $50 cartridge on my best table vs a $1500 cartridge on a lesser table. The $50 sounded more musical in rhythm and pitch consistency. An analogy would be putting a great tire on a bent rim vs a moderate tire on a good rim.
So, in your case, we cannot check the main bearing because of the way the motor is built. So, we have trust history on that. Then, it comes to the arm and its condition. I did a video on that as well and it is done very gently. I try to move the arm forward and back directly from the headshell to the gimbal. Then, I try to rotate the arm clockwise and counter-clockwise with an equally gentle twist. If you can fee a sort of click or slop, then the tonearm is toast. Now, this applies to standard tonearms, not uni-pivots, tangential trackers (which are always a mess) or other specialty arms. If those are all good, you are free to run the gamut on cartridges.
One of the wonderful things about a 1200G is that the VTA (vertical tracking angle) is adjustable which opens up the range of cartridges you can use. Hanas are good along with the Ortofons. One of the standard cartridges used by Technics for years on their lower tables were Audio Technicas. Now the weight of the arm and the compliance of the cartridge should be watched. I am not personally well versed with the 1200G but I think some audio groups could let you see which ones to avoid. I like the ATs for the liveliness and taunt bass but some prefer the tonal nature of Hanas. This is where it can be rather personal.
Now, the other thing you should consider is getting a second headshell which would allow you to switch out cartridges (remember to adjust VTA if necessary) for different albums of different conditions. Thus, you don't take time off a great cartridge by playing budget records that are not in the best of condition. Watch out for re-issues regardless of the 180 gram pressing. Some of those sound like mass market cassette tapes. Original pressings of older material is generally best. See my video on Streaming vs. Vinyl.
I hope this helps you along. I really like the idea of a second headshell/cartridge option.
Thank you for taking the time to respond and sharing your knowledge and expertise! Very interesting to hear people preferred a $50 cart on a higher end TT. I do have a 2nd Headshell which currently has a Nagaoka mp200. For my higher end cart I used to have a 2M black but just couldn’t ever get it to sound right. Lots of chatter online about that one and the setup but I just gave up. I then went to the Hana which I do like a lot. I was thinking of trying a sumiko starling which is even more expensive but I have reservations based on what we are discussing here.
@@jackiepuppet9289 As I have no experience with the Sumiko, I must yield to what others might have to say about it.
Finally! A price equivalent comparison to tonearm and table. I agree in pointing out a cost limit to player and arm. Barring diy mods your video is spot on brother!
Thank you for taking the time to comment. Some of this goes back to years gone by where the phono cartridge and the speaker, because they are mechanical in motion, were given the highest priorities. Much of that carried forward into an age where extraordinary costly designs were made available without a complete understanding by the consumer of the entire picture. I had a lot of fun taking a $50 Linn cartridge on an Ekos tonearm and burying a Troika ($2000) on an Ittok just to prove the point. I am sure there are other examples where this could be done as well. There's very little difference in results between a Kodak Instamatic camera and a Leica in an earthquake or most digital cameras as well.
So if you have $1500 turntable whatbus reasonable range for price of cartridge,?
Adrian, please tell me about your turntable. The brand and if the arm was purchased separately, the brand of it. That will allow me to google your turntable and read about it. Otherwise, I am only guessing which is not the way to do things. It is likely that you have a better table than many of the budget ones offered today. So, let's start with that information. Thank you for taking the time to ask an important question for others to follow.
Hi. Thank you for putting a different perspective out there. What you are saying makes a lot of sense. I am pretty new to turntables and recently bought an old Technics SL-23A and am in need of replacing the cartridge. Do you have any advice on where I stand with such a turntable, in terms which cartridges might be too much for it. Some recommendations would also be great. Where do you stand in this regard with phono amplifiers? Thank you!
I would recommend a basic Audio Technica cartridge, say like the AT-VM95E for around the $65 mark. That will do nicely. I believe your reference to a phono amplifier is better known as a phono preamp. We work, ourselves, with two different ones, either from Rega or from Cambridge Audio. Both sell for around $200. I am sure there are others out there, likely less expensive but these two are nice and very effective. It all depends upon how deep one wants to get into this source of music.
It’s not so much about matching price ratios, it’s more about about synergy between devices.
First off, thank you for a simple yet well considered comment. I appreciate the effort to comment.
Well, certainly having the right mechanical match between arm and cartridge is essential. This often comes into play with tonearms that are separately purchased. That said, most cartridges that are purchased are going on some OEM mass produced tonearm on a similarly produced turntable and usually with a removeable headshell. For example, a $600 phono cartridge on a 50 year old Technics SL-1500 is a terrible waste of money. Sadly, some hot review comes out on a cartridge and suddenly everyone has to have one regardless of the facts. I've seen this time and time again.
@@audibleeleganceinc Thanks for the awesome response. I don’t know a lot about turntables. Logically thinking, I would think that the main bearing needs to have very smooth operation in order to not transmit vibrations, the platter would need to be relatively heavy in order to maintain a proper and exact rpm with a great motor behind it, the vinyl would need to be isolated from the platter with a rubber or cork mat to stop transferring of vibrations.
After that is all done, I’m thinking the tonearm would need to dampen vibrations quickly, the wiring should be top grade , and the cartridge should be of highest quality.
Lastly, the electrical and magnetic fields should not interfere from the motor and signal from the cartridge.
Is that what makes for a great sounding vinyl rig?
In many ways, you are correct. However, I have seen some very clever ways around various issues. Take, for example, the use of a magnetically lifted platter system where there is no contact between the main bearing and what is called a thrust plate. Then it is reduced to side wall friction which traditional designs also have.
As for tonearms, some tables follow the damping approach while others redirect that vibration energy away to another spot.
You are spot on about magnetic interference as for years we could not mount cartridges like Grado on Technics direct drive tables without it gloriously humming along as you got near the motor.
You also have variations between suspended tables and those of solid plinths with the traditional thinking that sprung was better. Well, maybe is my answer and my two best turntables have no suspension at all. Most that do have suspension are a mess or have "pretend" suspensions. Linn is quite correct about tuning and to my horror, I have come to realize that older Thorens turntables are not "turn-key at all" but also must be tuned. But nobody pays attention to that with them.
So, you have a good basic understanding of tables but there are also different approaches. The best thing to do is to listen to it and decide whether or not it actually plays music musically correct. I have done videos on that as well as I will pick fights with audiophiles who look for tonal qualities and pay no attention to the music itself.
@@audibleeleganceincThank you so very much for your interesting information. I appreciate you taking the time to share your wisdom and knowledge and experience with me.
You are correct, the best way to determine what piece of equipment to purchase, is by listening and trusting our ears.
In theory, sometimes a piece of gear might ( on paper ), be better or even have better specifications, but I’ve learned that over the years, sometimes in practice, real world listening experiences tell me something different. 😊
I’ve been advising many folks in the hi-fi group I belong to on their journey into spinning records. “Records” ought to give you some idea of my age!
I agree with Lou here, it’s about understanding the design philosophy being pursued by the manufacturer. Some go the route of mass loading, making everything extremely heavy in order to make it hard for vibrations to agitate the system. Others, like Rega, go in exactly the opposite direction, with each successive model using more exotic materials to reduce weight, increase rigidity and increase natural resonance damping properties.
Finally, there is the closed loop suspended sub-chassis designs, such as Linn. The point in these is to isolate the external vibrations through the tuned suspension, but then ensure that any vibration that is present in one part of the suspended sub-chassis, is present throughout, meaning zero relative movement between the cartridge and the record surface. In this instance, the bearings in the platter and arm are not in fact insulating the system from vibration but transmitting it to ensure it is consistent throughout.
Many people buy modifications to their turntables from companies that take no account of the design philosophy that the original manufacturer was pursuing. Virtually every so called upgrade I’ve seen for a Rega turntable falls into this category, from alternative sub-platters with spindles made of soft metal, to great lumps of steel plonked on the record to ‘clamp’ it down.
I met Roy Gandy in Bristol last weekend and he is a man who knows exactly what he is doing. My choice is a Linn, however I also have a Rega with a MM cartridge which I use to test the phono stages of the amps I restore.
Anyway, to the point of your video, I couldn’t agree more. I’ve just landed a new Goldring E3 for my son-in-law and it will make a fantastic upgrade for the Rega Carbon cartridge on his P1. But that’s as far as he should go in my view. I’ve already sourced a genuine P3 glass platter, which made a big difference to the already fine standard platter.
So I have a Technics 1200 MK2. Think you can buy one used for $600 or so? You saying only cheap cartridges work on that tone arm?
I am principally referring to inexpensive tables like Technics SL-D2 and that sort of product. As you work with older tables, then the question becomes the condition of both the main bearing and the horizontal and vertical bearings in the tonearm itself. So, look at the video where it discusses checking the tonearm bearings. If there is play in it in either plane, then the arm does not justify an expensive cartridge. With direct drive tables, you can not access the main bearing at all so the history of the table becomes very important. If the platter was left on the table and it was shipped or moved in a car, there is a reasonable chance the bearing is damaged. (The same holds true when moving any turntable, honestly.) It's like this: Putting great tires on bent rims is not going to give you the full benefit of the investment in great tires. In both cases, you are talking about one of the few parts of a system that wears out more quickly than most other parts of the system.
Thus, I can not speak as to your turntable itself as there are questions unanswered.
Ok so I'm looking very much into upgrade the Ranier on my Debut Carbon Evo. I have the Acryl-It platter, I'm ordering the aluminum sub platter, and I'm probably grabbing the ISOAcoustics platform or putting it on Orea feet. (I love to tinker and upgrade, I know at this point I could have saved another 6-8 months and gotten something for 1-1.2k but this makes me happy. I'm planning on running this config out for quite a long time until I ultimately upgrade to a big boy table.
All this is running through a Sony STRDH190 (next part of my upgrade)
I'm mulling the obvious choices - Moonstone or Wellspring, OR, spending the extra cash and stepping up to the Amethyst for the nude line-contact stylus.
I am unfamiliar with nearly everything you have mentioned in terms of having both seen and heard it. Sorry, but I sincerely cannot comment about your plans. Best wishes.
Nice video. What do you think about putting a Ortofon Cadenza Blue MC on a P6 or a Project Classic Evo? Right now they are equipped with an Exact MM and Quintet Red MC, respectively. Thank you.
An honest and sincere question. As I have no experience with the Project Classic Evo, I honestly can not comment. The Rega P6 can be purchased with an Ania moving coil so it is suitable for such cartridges. The cartridge you have suggested is, here in the states, more expensive than the table itself and that throws up a flag to me. The cartridge will work most likely although I have not done it myself. I don't know the exact results.
The reason for the hesitation is that the P6 is simply outclassed by the P8 and both turntables represent long term investments. Cartridges, on the other hand, are not. Their useful life is between 400 to 600 hours (if we are talking peak performance and no record damage) and an out of the box life of 3 to 4 years (if we are talking peak performance, again.) So, if we are talking a new turntable purchase, I would be more inclined to a P8 and a lesser cartridge. The net is greater. If you are talking about replacing an older cartridge on an existing turntable, then Ortofon may well be a good choice but how far up their line also becomes a function of the quality of the phono preamp. Keep in mind that a change over to an Ortofon from a Rega cartridge is going to require a bit of adjustment to the cartridge tags as the male pins on Ortofon cartridges are a different diameter than those on Regas.
Hopefully this gives you some guidance and some thoughts about what you might do.
This has been very helpful ❤
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I just bought an Akai D-210. It has an excel es-28 cartridge/stylus. What cartridge should I buy as replacement? Thank you.
As these were often sold with Audio Technica cartridges, I would stay with them as it is more likely to have the proper geometry. Since the VTA can not be adjusted in the Akai, the height of the Audio Technica, like the AT95E is likely best suited for your needs. They sell for around 60 to 70 dollars.
Im struggling to figure out what cartridge to put on my Thorens TD206. I dont care for the AT95E played through my PMKI RUBY AMPLIFIER.
I am unfamiliar with both your Thorens as well as the amplifier. It appears that the Thorens often is supplied with the AT95. You might look into either a Ortofon or Grado but I can not be any more specific than that. Sorry, so many products one can not know them all.
What about vintage turntables? Do you factor the original cost back when it was new or the resale price? I have a Pioneer PL 514x that cost me 160 euros with a Shure M75 6s and a Hi track needle. This TT cost was 100 dollars back in 1977, which adjusted by inflation is somewhere around 500 dollars of today. So which price should I take into account? I want to upgrade to a VM95ML which costs 180 euros (headshell + cartridge + needle) but now you made me second guess. I don't want to have a worse sound, what should I do?
Inflation does not take into consideration wear and tear on what is now a 30+ year old table. So, toss that approach out. Then, we have two main issues. One, if the table has had continuous use over that time period, it is likely that the bearing is worn naturally. If the table was moved with the platter on and not lifted of the thrust plate, the bearing is likely done. As I don't know how the table has been treated, I certainly would not consider it new at all. More towards the worn side and perhaps worse. Then, there is the tonearm. IF there is movement in either the horizontal or vertical plane, the arm is shot. The way to tell this is to very gently push and pull on the tonearm itself. If you feel play, then those bearings are done for. Then very gently twist the arm in a clock wise and counter-clockwise motion. If you feel play there again, those bearings are shot. It that case, buy a cheaper cartridge. Fundamentally, you will not get the real benefit of a better cartridge because it will sense and play back all the errors in the table along with the music. See my video on inspecting tables.
So, where you go with a cartridge depends upon the condition of the table. I think 180 euros is a bit much, regardless.
@@audibleeleganceinc Thanks for the reply! The TT is in excellent condition, I have no idea who owned it before but he/she took very good care of it. Even the original feet are intact (and in this particular model they are prone to decompose). The dust cover is also original and it's immaculate, except for two minor scratches. I checked what you said about the tonearm and I cannot sense play at all. When I got it I oiled the motor and lubricated the spindle (even though it moved freely for about a minute and a half without the belt and with a very little push). I was really lucky, my guess is this TT was rarely used or very well taken care of. Nevertheless I'll try a cheaper cartridge, maybe the VM95E which is 80 euros for the whole combo (stylus, cart and headshell). Thanks for taking time to answer, great videos!
@@Groucho3321 Thank you for letting me know what you are working on. Many times my advice goes out into the air with nary a response. Glad you checked the arm as about half the time the arms are toast.
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@@audibleeleganceinc I will, I've been checking some of your videos, very interesting stuff. Thanks for the info!
@@Groucho3321 You are most welcome and thank you for the comments. It's always a changing world and maybe I am a little behind on a few things. Always good to learn.
Yeah you're definitely right on this one and this really needs to be said more often!
Especially with all the quality issues of new records these days, that "bad details retrieval" can definitely be an issue... the more revealing a cartridge is, the more you come to the conclusion that record pressing quality has gone massively downhill since the vinyl revival started!
I think the best price ratio is somewhere around 2/3 for turntable/arm and 1/3 cartridge, so the cartridge about half the price of the complete turntable with arm included.
Unless you're running an aftermarket tonearm that's purchased during or post-covid, because those have skyrocketed in price and have even outpaced the price increases of anything else in HiFi.
So those aftermarket tonearms are overpriced and because of that, their price can't be reliably used as a guideline.
Very sensible advice. Although I have a modern Linn Sondek I only use the Adikt MM cartridge on it because as you said it needs the stylus replacing every year due to wear and the cost does build up over time. On my other turntables I use MM as well but something not as expensive such as a Linn K9 which takes ATVM95 stylus’s which are very adequate for the table/arm combination.
Thank you for taking the time to contribute to our channel. I do try to be sensible about things in a pretty non-sensible world of which this is a very small part.
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Thank you, again.
Does this go in the opposite direction too? Can you put a very expensive cartridge onto an inexpensive table and not expect better results?
Well, very expensive tires will likely improve the performance of a heap of trash car. However, you will not get the total benefit out of the cost of those tires. They are limited by the heap of trash. Same basic principal. It's about getting the maximum performance for the least amount of dollars, really.
Im a newbie, need to replace my cartridge on my Technics SL-220, any recommendations?
You have a pleasant enough belt drive table. I would not go to far in price for the cartridge and generally recommend an AudioTechnica for them. I think the Ortofons would be a bit too much for the table. Make sure you check that arm as I showed in other videos. If it is loose in the vertical or horizontal plane, the bearings are toast. In that case, you should keep the cartridge price under $50us. While we also sell Grado, I would shy away from those as you do not have the ability to adjust the Vertical Tracking Angle of the tonearm for proper set-up. Grado cartridges are fairly tall resulting in a slope towards the gimbal assembly.
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Im of the same opinion that
The table and tonearm are
Are more important then the cartridge
I use a at95e on my rega planer 2
And feel no desire upgrade the cartridge
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Subbed for common sense....what cartridge would pair with an old LP 12 with an Ittock 11 arm?
I am particularly fond of AudioTechnicas on Ittoks as, I believe, they made the moving magnet range for Linn. I have a Linn K18 MkII that came in on such a combination and it is truly wonderful. Long discontinued, I believe. You could also consider a Hana cartridge as we have had some nice results with those. No experience with Ortofons on an Ittok so you would have to ask around on that one. Depending upon where you are, as this is an international format, you might also look about for a Benz Micro Silver or the likes.
Obviously, my advice has to be balanced against the version of the LP12 and the condition of the Ittok II tonearm. Sometimes spending a little money on new springs and grommets can prove to be most beneficial. Those grommets made of rubber do age. I also do not know if you have the original one side finished armboard or the the later ones that were laminated. So, an armboard upgrade would be valuable too. I have done a few videos on LP12s and you might want to look though those as well.
So, that's the best I can suggest with the little information that I have.
@@audibleeleganceinc It is an early table serial # in the 23,000 range It's all stock with the Valhalla board Ittock arm, and it seems ok, I had some new caps put in, springs, grommets and belt when I bought it and was looking to replace my LOMC that just lost 1 channel what I can surmise as a internal wire failure, hence your timely video.
@@carlwinslow4175 You are most welcome. I think my recommendations, then, are pretty much on target. With the way cartridge prices have gone, I think you comfortable in the 400 to $800 range. You might want to take a look at the AudioTechnica OC9 as well.
I believe I see that you are a Rega dealer... so how do you feel about the Exact MM vs the Ania Pro MC on the P6?
The P6 can, in fact, support the Ania Pro quite nicely. Given that the next step up for a better table, the P8 is quite a bit more, the Ania would be a suitable choice. Otherwise, we are stretching the budget to get to a P8 with a Exact, if we follow the hierachy. The only other element that comes into play, then, is the quality of the phono stage where some folks do not have a moving coil input.
I am not sure where you are but we do have the P6 on display with the Ania Pro
@@audibleeleganceinc Thank you for the response. That's how I landed on my P6 in the first place. I was only going to buy the P3 but once I added the outboard power/speed control and the Exact cartridge, it was only a few hundred more to get the superior plinth & subplatter on the P6. I only wish I'd known about your store before I purchased. Columbus doesn't seem to have a Rega dealer any more and I thought the closest to me was in Toledo.
Edit: You posted your second response as I was typing this. I would certainly love to hear the Ania Pro when I do come down for a visit. My Exact is only about a year old at this point but when it comes time to replace it, I'd prefer to buy local.
You are most welcome to visit anytime. If you come on a Saturday, I might be there. Otherwise, talk to Chris. @@davidtraube7921
Bravo! Something finally made sense to this can of worms called high-end audio :)
Yep, pretty much. Thank you for the compliment.
I bought a new tonearms for my fully KAB upgraded and modified SL1200 M3D. The bearings were shot on my old one. Before installing the new one, I rewired it with Cardas wires. It wasn’t a bid deal.
I run either my DL103r or Nagaoka MP-200 cart, with a Tavish phono stage, but have a cartridge collection of around 30 of em all mounted to headshells. Besides records, carts are a fun hobby to me. Nothing over $1,000 or so. The headshell is of course removable.
I don’t believe I am an idiot for doing any of this, but you apparently think differently….
I am merely explaining the risks. If you want to experiment and enjoy the hobby, then it's your money and records. You are always free to whatever you wish.
@@audibleeleganceinc Yeah, I know, man. I was just being a bit snarky and joking around. That’s the problem with comments sometimes, is that the inflection is unfortunately lost. I enjoy hearing your point of view.
@@NickP333 Yes, that is really the problem with text type messages. Not only are the inflections lost but you can not see the face of the person. Both delivery messages. That's why so many youngsters get into trouble with the internet. A 58 year old guy would never net a young girl. Then, on some, even with videos, humor is lost as well. I try to spice my videos with a bit of that here and there.
By the way, the videos are shot 50's style. There are no scripts, teleprompters, or retakes unless I catch myself saying something either unclear or, once in a while, simply stupid. So, my early ones which are being repeated right now show how awkward I was at doing them with all the UMMMMs which I caught hell for and rightly so.
We are doing a lot of reissues right now as all my attention is towards my wife who now has been in the Cleveland Clinic Cardiac ICU for 115 days hoping for a 2nd heart transplant as the first heart is now failing after 4 very difficult years. I spend much of my time traveling from Virginia where I live to there while also maintaining her horse farm. So, when you hear UMMMs, well, those are early ones.
@@audibleeleganceincHey, Lou. I unfortunately missed seeing this comment of yours. Audio is of course mostly a hobby, and it’s family and friends that truly matter. I am so sorry to hear about your wife, Lou. I mean that. Truly. What a terrible situation to be in. I very sincerely hope she receives the care she needs. I will say a prayer for her, which I already did, but will do more. I’ve seen the power of prayer work. In fact, I’ve witnessed and experienced some unexplainable things throughout my life that I don’t really share with anyone in fear of people thinking I’m nuts and getting locked up. God bless, Lou. 🙏🎶💜
@@NickP333 She received her second heart. Please see my observations on our website under Blog for September. She just got moved out of ICU and into a step-down unit where she will be for a couple more weeks, I suspect. Hopefully, nothing goes astray.
The compliance of the cartridge is important. No point a high compliance cartridge in a stiff low compliance arm . The stylus will pull one way . Use a low compliance cartridge in a high compliance arm the arm can vibrate in stead of the stylus worst case. See your hifi dealer don't just read the magazine and guess.
AMEN!!!!! Thank you for taking it one step further. We are constantly driven mad by reviews when a cartridge becomes "hot" and everyone wants to put it on anything that pivots. A really nice addition. There once was a great chart based out of the UK that did the match ups. I don't know if it is still around.
@audibleeleganceinc Back in early 80's I bought a dual channel graphic equaliser
Because it was the latest thing. It ended up in the shed.
One trick I have used on belt turntables
The heavier, the better if you can't get a belt. Get a longer belt cut 2 cuts at 45 ° to required length, rejoin with bit of super glue. The 45 cut provides a gradual move over the motor pulley and max strength, unlike a 90 cut. And the heavy platter helps smooth out. My Garrard has been like this for last 10 years.
I agree on that cartridges is a lot of money if you change em consistently.
I do disagree on your stance on for example a goldring elite or nagaoaka mp500 on a cheaper turntable and arm.
I do not think they sound bad on a lesser expensive arm and TT.
Two elements: You do not get the full benefit of the investment. Put Formula 1 racing times on a Prius. Great tires and a waste of money.
And yes, they will pick up things that are not part of the music and can add what is called sibilance to voice tracks. That's no fun.
@@audibleeleganceinc I respectfully disagree!
@@Pointsbeingmade and there we are. I did these demonstrations years ago when I had 8 to 10 Linn LP12s on the floor. After demonstrations on exactly the same tables and different arms and quality, never had a taker for your position. I once believed as you do now but after 39 years of experience, and some miserable ones for myself in the prior 10 years, I will stand firm. But, we can respect each others position.
@@audibleeleganceinc 😂😃 you are thankfull for my perspective.
@@Pointsbeingmade No, not thankful but understanding. I had this wrong position for myself for 10 miserable years. My problem was the turntable itself, never the cartridge.
What cartridge should I get for my Technics SL-D2?
Well, I don't know the condition of the table bearing or tonearm. That said, I don't think you be hurting yourself with going with a basic Audio Technica cartridge.Grado's would likely be too tall resulting in an improper tracking angle as the Technics tonearm does not have the ability to change the vertical tracking angle.
So you don’t think I need an ortophon? I just want my music to sound clear and nice! Thank you.
@@AndrewDelman My concern, Andrew, is the height of the cartridge would result in an improper VTA. If you look at a tonearm on a record, the arm should be parallel to the record itself. The taller the cartridge, the greater the risk that the arm will look like it is sloping back towards the gimble assembly. That will throw both timing and tonality off. The AudioTechnica were a common cartridge when that table was made and often times came standard on the Technics tables. That's why I suggested it. The Ortofon is a fine cartridge but you would need to do some homework to make sure it fits properly.
My Stanton 680 worked fine on that turntable. The main thing is you don't want to use a light tracking cartridge ( in my case it just needs to be the right stylus my ELII stylus at 3 grams worked beautifully) . So anything that optimally tracks at 1.5 grams and high would be my suggestion having used this and other turntables with essentially the same tone arm. Unfortunately there are no new Stanton 680 cartridges and the replacement stylus is aftermarket. That being said I still hanging on to my Stanton moving iron cartridges. The Japanese aftermarket is good, but expensive. If I had to buy a new cartige it would mostlikely be a Nagaoka MP-110 and replace the stylus often. Or a Grado Black.
@@stevengagnon4777 It is a shame Stanton is no longer around. I owned many of them including the 680, 681 and the 881. So, I understand your attachment to it.
Nah… put a $17,500 cartridge on a $250 Crosley turntable, it will sound epic!
Oh, yes, I think it only appropriate to call it the Titantic mod.
I mounted a $700 Ortofon 2M Black shibata stylus cart on a Rega P6, they work fabulously together and my vinyl-to-computer rips underscore the clarity and musicality I'm getting.
BUT this turntable is only twice the cost of the cartridge, and I would do it all over again too.
Thomas, it was a fine choice. Keep in mind that I have to consider the world market and there's lots of folks who put $300 to $400 cartridges (and even more) on tables not worth $150. The Rega P6 is a quality turntable and it can support your purchase.
Thanks for the time to write your comment. Rest assured, you are quite fine. Now a $600 cartridge on a P1 would be an entirely different matter. See the picture?
@@audibleeleganceinc Thanks for the thumbs up but I did not need outside validation on this upgrade, LOL!
Ha, you got another thumbs up!@@thomosburn8740
So what IS a reasonable amount of money to spend these days? What is the markup? What cartridges are well made what are less well made. What manufacturers represent value for money? lots of unanswered questions. Who can you trust for advice as noone offers demo's obviously. Those in the position to shed light never ever do, all the consumer gets is 'don't do this' or 'buy this jewel at £daft, it's better than your last. Shelter were cheap in Japan before the marketing markup machine sank their claws in. Now they are _literally_ 3 to 4 times the price.
Thank you for giving me another idea for a video to everyone around the world. I hope to do it very quickly as I travel north shortly from Virginia through my store in Cincinnati to Cleveland where I will meet up with my wife who just received her 2nd heart transplant after 4 difficult years with the first one. But let me answer your question as best I can which, quite honestly, is not much.
Let me address one thing very quickly. Markup. If that changes what you buy, you are already on the wrong track. So, do you ask anyone how much money they make for everything you buy? Rather rude, actually. I guess I should start asking my customers how much money they make in order to decide what they can afford. That would send customers out the door very quickly and properly so.
As for how much to spend, well that depends upon the quality of the turntable and condition. If it is a nice turntable with a tonearm that has been ruined, then certainly nothing over $100 US. That leads to another problem as I have viewers all over the world so I have no idea what is available to them or the market prices in their country. Who can you trust? Well, I am certainly not going to vouch for anyone that I do not personally know. That includes mail order houses who has who knows what answering questions. Just press the keyboard button, make your payment, and wait at home for it to be delivered for someone to mount it without the proper guides or tools. I see those messes all the time. It's this keyboard madness which has resulted in far fewer specialists who do know what they are doing because they can not make a decent living and are tired of giving service to people who have no intention of buying it from them anyway. See my video on how to steal from a brick and mortar store.
You raise an interesting one in the concept of "value." The best answer I can give you for that one is to think about tires for your car. Some might be good value but are they appropriate? Similarly, depending upon how the cartridge is to be used or the conditions under which it will be used, the manufacturer might change. So, if one back-cues, Stanton comes to mind for their incredible durability. Others would be destroyed. You see, I have no idea how they intend to use a cartridge, what table, what condition, or even if their kids are going to use the turntable too. I have seen several great cartridges destroyed by young innocent hands.
As for demos, we offer demos on some of the cartridges we sell but not all. There are multiple reasons for this. One, it would take a lot of turntables and as a retailer, would we be rewarded with the sale or would they simply haul off and mail order it? We stopped selling multiple brands of headphones for that very reason. Two, most people recognize that how a cartridge "sounds" on one table combination might not be exactly true on another. Similar, yes, exact, likely not because the turntable and tonearm themselves contribute to what is heard. Then, simply reality is that there are far more different models of turntables out there over 50 years than there are cartridges. There are simply too many permutations and combinations. We do our best to use our knowledge and experience accumulated over time to advise on cartridge purchases AND make sure they are properly mounted with special guides and tools.
So, please understand that I am not bothered by your real frustration but I did want to take the opportunity to lay out for everyone why it is impossible to address specific needs for everyone everywhere. Oh, and let the specialist make his or her living so they will be there to answer your specific needs in the future. It's that simple. Those who offer the most knowledge and the most skill don't work for minimum wage or less.