Very well said Ken. As someone who has been into audio equipment since 1972, my goal was always to be able to extract everything on the recording. At 18 I has a system that was about $600, today that system would be $4500. So it amazes me how so many people who have gotten into vinyl in the last 10 years take a stance that spending more than $1000 on a vinyl playback system is all you need. They’ll stand on a line discussing this while waiting for their $7 starbucks coffee
Oscar Wilde once observed of someone 'A man who knows the cost of everything...& the value of nothing' I think he was reffering to cynicism..but it feels relevant here. 🙂
Ken, the idea that what is stamped into our media is the artist’s original intent is naive thinking. Defeatable tone controls offer the OPTION of applying a bit of EQ to diminish the shortcomings of so many releases. Why would anyone subject themselves to listening to a crap pressing because of some misconceived dogma? I can’t count how often I was disappointed by an LP’s sound quality on first play. Fortunately there’s a cool remedy at hand to help enhance its listenability. It’s called a tone control. Good vinyl advice especially for newbies. Thanks.
Recently I came across a needle drop the notorious Michael Fremer had done of a certain favorite artist of mine with the 300k dollar Wilson-Benesch turntable. I thought, wow, this sounds amazing! I knew I had the same pressing he'd used, so I decided to take a comparative listen on my humble, mostly vintage setup. My setup was a Lenco L75 with Ortofon as212 arm and an Audio-Technica vm95ml cartridge/stylus, some no name bull crap phono pre, a 70's Toshiba receiver and Triangle Br03 speakers. And wouldn't you know, every single thing I heard on Fremer's needle drop I could pick up with my setup. Of course it didn't sound as sharp and precise as Fremers but his stuff better sound beautiful. (Although my copy of the record was in much better shape than his.) Point is, you kinda make it up to be like you need to pour thousands of dollars into your system before you can start to hear or appreciate your records and I don't think that's true. Obviously, it will only get better once you start finessing your setup and adding finer stuff, especially in terms of imaging and instrument placement etc. but it's not like you can't hear - let alone connect with and appreciate - what's there with a lesser deck.
As a vintage Luxman gear collector I appreciate having tone controls on my SS and tube preamps. Luxman C1000 (Tim de Paravicini) ) CL350, CL35 MkIII (currently being restored).👍👍
I'm "pro" tone control, recorded music is meant to be a "planned illusion" anyway! They put 16, 24 (or more these days) together on a two track! Sound is subjective anyway, your never going to get it to sound like the speakers they have in the studio! It's good to be able to tone down a super bright recording, or boost the bass a little for a recording that's lacking! Just my opinion, we all entitled to it! Great channel!😊
You don’t see Tom controls on better gear, in fact, you see as little as possible. The idea is to remain as pure as possible to the original signal. Anything added to the original signal is not the original sound or anywhere close to it
Tone controls do not get you further away from the intentions of the artist & recording. Bad mastering engineers, less than great pressings, warps etc. add much more distortion than well designed tone controls. If the mastering engineer has bad taste ot bad hearing; that's what takes you further away from the music. Not correcting brightness or dullness using tone controls to get the timbre correct, which so many incompetent mastering personnel can't do or don't want to do on purpose. To get a frequency response that sounds better in cars for sales, where your average person listens to music the most. "Correcting Wrongs", either because of incompetence or on purpose is what tone controls can do; and that is a GREAT thing. If they take 3 or 4% away to give you what is more accurate timber; then that's the small price you have to pay. Worth it! OR...OR...you can spend thousands and thousands of dollars buying one cable after another, which some people use as tone controls, to get just that right balance, that a simple 1/10 inch turn of a tone control can do the same thing. I guess the former is the Audiophile way; which seems to always be the most tortuous, expensive way, more often than not. Reminds one of the joke; the how many people (insert your ethnic group of choice) does it take to screw in a light bulb? Four; one to hold the light bulb and three people to spin the chair around in circles. Same thing.Ridiculous. Don't listen to anyone and listen for yourself is always my best advice, because it is the best advice there is.
I guess i don't agree with much said in the video. The most glaring is saying that what is on the record is what the artist intended or what it was like in the studio. No record or any playback medium will get you there no matter what gear you play it on. It's not like the artist is going to walk into you room and say "well that's not the way I wanted it to sound, get more expensive gear". Your best bet is to get what you can afford and sounds good to you and enjoy your music.
Entirely fair and reasonable Ken. I agree with you on tone controls, though you can find them on high end integrateds, such as Luxman and Accuphase. That said, I do think a balance control is worthwhile.
So True, I've found over the years i've up graded my Turntable & tried different cartridges & phono stages, I had a Project transistor Phono stage & was Superb for years, then I upgraded to a Valve Project 500 Pounds ( uk ) And I can hear some things in the Mix, even compilation Lp's sound better with well setup MM cartidge..the K tel type. Even slightly scratched records sound better than Cd's its the attack of the instruments. Some cheeper turntable can be setup better to get the best of them..
There are some times he has a point but I have to agree with you on this post. These attitudes with a big slice of our community is exactly why audiophilia has zero traction with younger people. This binary elitist thinking is kryptonite to anyone under 40-45.
I liked this video, Ken. Except for your discussion of tone control. I've worked with multitrack at home & in the studio at my college (yeah, it's been a while) & I've always been well aware that the room in which I'm working & listening is... *that* room. The listener is in *their* room. The EQ I applied that sounded good in my room on the day I applied it will not sound the same in their room.Even in *my* room I might feel differently about that sound in November 1983 than I do in October 2024. We always used 2 sets of speakers (little + big) to judge the sound. We didn't normally listen via headphones. A well designed EQ is an enhancement to the listening experience. It's *fun* & I am more about enjoying the experience of listening to a CD (or LP) than being "true to what the artist intended" (which may really be about what the mix engineer intended).
There’s a reason you don’t see town control on better gear. Actually you see as little as possible. So the signal can remain as pure as possible. If you are a recording engineer, you know that.
@@kenmicallefjazzvinylaudiop6455 But we don't always want a "pure" signal. That's why guitarists put a mic in front of their amp instead of using a direct connection. Maybe you choose a phono cartridge that you feel gives an uncolored reproduction. I might pick one that adds some warmth. Of course this discussion has continued for decades, but I think options are wonderful.
I can go through my records/CDs and point out to you, "this one has no top end", "this one has no bottom end", etc. That is not in my opinion "what the musicians wanted you to hear". And if it was they were wrong! It's not the equipment that needs tone controls, it's the recordings. So I consider McIntosh's new EQ a Godsend (even though, amazingly, there's no adjustment available between 3000 and 10000 cycles). Thanks for a very interesting video!
Back in the day there was a saying, "Garbage in, garbage out." If you don't begin with a good starting point that gets the music out of the grooves then no matter how great, or expensive, the rest of the system is it's not gonna sound good. In other words, I tell folks, put your big money in the table/arm/cartridge, then work from there. Many are aghast when I say that speakers are the least important part of your system. A good speaker simply lets you hear the inadequacies of the rest of your system. BTW, my sound begins with an original SOTA Sapphire, upgraded to current specs some time ago, Origin Live Illustrious arm, Kiseki Purpleheart OS. The resultant music does does come out of my Tympanis, it floats in front of them.
I might add that a good starting point is a good moving magnet cartridge, the higher output signal allows a significantly less expensive , or less a less complicated amplification chain, returning to the straight wire with gain amplification goal for better sound. The design also delivers an impact on rock music that is not characteristic of other designs at a similar price. both the cartridge and the speakers are the voice of the system, but without a solid core amplification, they don't mean much. fortunately good amplification doesn't have to cost like a good turntable set up.
I agree. The Linn "source first" approach. Which after many years in audio I adopted. But -- more recently I lean towards those who recommend putting a little more in speakers and a little less in preamp/amp.
I've got Technics SL1200GR and the leveling feet are Awesome with lots of travel. I've had zero issues with leveling this awesome turntable. Also the VTA adjustments are simple and straightforward. I agree on phono pre, I got the project tube box s2 for my 2nd turntable. The GR2 is running through the internal phono pre of my Marantz model 50 integrated, so far I'm very pleased with my setup, at some point ill try the GR2 with the tube box s2 to hear any differences. Good video! Peace from RI
Well done Ken keep up the good work I recently bought some New Old stock 6922 for my headphone amp and I like the changes.! BTW my pro- ject pro turntable is doing a great job coming from a vintage Philips GA 212!
Is the intention in listening to music to hear what the artist intended or for me to enjoy the music? If I enjoy the music on an inexpensive tt with a built in phono stage and powered speakers, am I wrong? Would an artist forbid me from buying their music because my kit isn't good enough (or isn't the same as their kit). Should I give it up and not listen to music? If the goal is to enjoy music, then whatever works for the person listening to the music is right.
You Sir, is why the word “Audiophile” is such a dirty word among music lovers. And calling new vinyl adopters the “lowest common denominator” is not only incredibly condescending, it’s downright rude! I have a modest system with a Pro-Ject Debut Pro, Ifi Zen phono stage, Cambridge Audio AX-A35 and some early nineties Celestion speakers. And that is all I need. I wouldn’t spend £30,000 on a turntable if I HAD the money. I find your attitude dismissive in the extreme of those who can’t afford YOUR level of gear. I enjoy my records, I don’t look at the gear I’m playing it on!
You totally misunderstand what I’m saying. His video was made to address the lowest common denominator. And it was full of false hoods. Tube rolling is not the same as adjusting tone. Tone controls take you further away from the music. I guess you didn’t notice but I said it $650 turntable sounded great. The new project T2.people get alarmed at the thought of taking on additional knowledge.
@@quocrip well said ! The whole video was just an exercise in talking about his expensive set up. I loved the “G force on a turntable” bit. Absolutely no grip on reality.
@@kenmicallefjazzvinylaudiop6455Yes, it was good of you to praise the Pro-Ject turntable. I for one don’t get alarmed by additional information, after all I bought my turntable from doing my due diligence. What I was implying was that Rick and your good self are talking to people at different ends of the food chain. You’re at the multi thousands of dollars level. Most people aren’t ever going to be likely to be in a position to own something like that. That was all. I would like to consider myself as an audiophile, but I have a very limited budget to improve things. At the moment I’m perfectly happy with my system, but I wouldn’t gear shame anyone for having “inferior” equipment to mine. There’s plenty of room for all of us to coexist in the audio world. I wish you luck with your endeavours Ken.
GM ☕️🍩 A little care and patience pays off with vinyl. Isolation being key …a tt is a mechanical device ..that works on mechanical principles…so everything adds up. Have a great Sunday
I enjoyed how articulately this guy could describe what a better turntable can do. recording technology is so far ahead of vinyl record play back technology , it seems there is almost no limit to what a better turntable can bring to light from even a record you know well. He does miss a small point with the non adjustable Rega designs, they are designed to be a completely in house rega deal, built for rega cartridges, which don't even need a measuring tool to be correctly installed on a Rega arm, just set the arm weight as indicated. his comment about his downforce scale is factual, except records, often audiophile releases, come in different thicknesses . As for controls, straight wire with gain is the conceptual goal, and should always be kept in mind , but like every other amplification, results depend on quality. An engineer is using tone controls when he decides what goes on the record., nothing says you have to agree , or your playback area might need help. A famous example is a Led Zeppelin record that was too dynamic to play on a cheap record players , so was recut for a milder impact upon playback. One can spend the money to get a rare original pressing, or just turn the bass back up if you have quality tone controls. one thing that often gets overlooked is the importance of the tone arm, because most come with the table and a cartridge upgrade is usually the first weak link in an audio chain. But consider, a tone arm that allows the cartridge to work better, will bring that benefit to every cartridge purchased through the years . And better cartridges tend to be consumable items.
Totally agree on the impact of the tonearm; changing mine brought a far bigger sonic improvement than other upgrades I'd put in place, like phono stage, cabling, etc. Blew my tiny mind.
Ken thinks you should suffer through lousy sounding records for the sake of “purity”. 🥴 I think records were made to be enjoyed, and if you aren’t enjoying it, you should do whatever you want to make it sound better to YOU.
@@kenmicallefjazzvinylaudiop6455 you may not realize this, but the vast majority of people don’t have unlimited funds to throw at numerous pressings in order to find a “good” one. Not that hard to figure that out.
Spending money on a system is all relative, a system is as good as its weakest link. There are a lot of goodies in those vinyl records to retrieve and it costs money to get them out. Tone controls are useful in many situations such as room size and furniture dynamics, also many records are not the most perfect mix over time and some need adjustment.
I have slowly built up, over the years, my system using , for the most part, the weakest link philosophy. Now , as an old guy with a lot of records, I happily have a pretty nice playback system for them. I might add that the extreme subjectivity of how humans hear makes the entire deal dependent on how far one chooses to chase an illusion, because what you hear inside your head is only your individual reality at the time, it is only what you think, which will always be perceived as correct. a kid with a Childs record player might be enjoying his experience more than someone with a multi thousand dollar system. it's all dependent on what you think you hear.
What I have learned from my DECADES in high-end audio: the best system is the one that gets you to SIT DOWN AND LISTEN. The best systems FOR YOU is the one that makes most or even all of your current collection sound a way that gets your feet tapping almost everytime. The best system is the one that gets you head banging, your air conducting, you playing air guitar or air piano, you singing to the songs that bring back childhood and teen years memories. .....everyone's music tastes are subjective; but in the end if the system does not ENGAGE....what's the point ???
In that same order of ideas, imagine a sound engineer mixing a live band, with a mixer with volume knobs only, so that the audience hears the band as they want to be heard. Anyways, if you want to hear a band in its purest form, it's better to go to a small jazz club with good acoustics and no amplification.
The only thing that can justify its high price is the cartridge. Everything else is either snake oil or just extravagance. Even the mentioned 4000 USD without the cartridge is too much. The turntable should be accurate and have a silent mechanism. Period. Vynil as a medium CANNOT deliver what you suggest. Don't get me wrong, I prefer vinyl, but well-mastered FLAC or DSD (unfortunately, a lot of today's music is badly mastered) is better than vinyl in terms of detail and soundstage. Another question is whether that sound suits the human ear better, and more importantly, the brain. With "I prefer vinyl" I made my choice. But that doesn't mean that the things claimed in this video are true.
Vinyl is great I love it, play it on my trusted and well cared for Linn Axis based system, as I said I love it. But! Vinyl is still stylus dragging through a plastic trough, it just is, and this creates noise that has to be overcome.! No matter how much you spend a good deal of t/t tech is about overcoming surface noise! I have to admit however to having an issue with the term ‘ Audiophile’ which is a nonsense label anyway! It is after all very subjective stuff! Can always gat a cd player of course!
One of the biggest problems, I think, is no one shops at an audio store{there are very few now} to hear the difference or read experts with credentials as an audio reviewer. UA-cam is the wild west an anybody can say anything they want without evidence. A store will let you borrow cables or listen to speakers and amps before you buy. Things can be done on the cheap if you know what to look for, like finding Mullard 12 Ax7 tubes branded Hammond or finding a very quiet AR/AX turntable in you grandparents basement They may even have records just lying around for the taking. Compare and trust your ears!
You don't always get what you pay for and you made a demonstration of it in your video, by naming products that gives you bigger return for your money.
I can only talk about my own experience. I have a modest system, composed by a Leak Stereo 130 amplifier, a Leak CD transport, a Pro-ject RPM 4 turntable and a pair of B&W 607 S2’s. It sounded fine and suited well my 12 square meter listening room. I wasn’t bvery happy with what I was hearing from my turntable, so I’ve upgraded the cartridge from a 2M red to a 2M blue. Huge improvement. Then I added an IFI phone stage. Another huge leap in the right direction. Then finally a considerable investment (considering the overall cost of my system - around 3.000 €) on Audioquest cables. Also a big improvement. All the system and upgrades were influenced by people like Steve Guttenberg, Francisco del Pozo, Darko Audio, local store owners, magazine reviews, etc. I’ll conclude saying that I agree with Ken. It’s been my experience that investing in better gear has a big impact on your system. As long as there is good synergy between components.
I might add that how I understood his point about matching cables to the system is the fact they they become part of a circuit, and any change in a circuit will effect performance. and the change is unknown until the wire is actually in the circuit.
The Tone derangement syndrome is a real thing. Those dreadful knobs that help solve poor recordings discrepancies and room acoustics, have no business being next to the volume knob.
How can a turntable designer and engineer don't believe in antiskating? Even if you don't hear a difference I don't want the suspension of my cartridge to run on the edge all the time. That's like putting bricks in the back of your car to the point where the springs are nearly fully compressed and expect to be able to drive on a bumpy road at high speeds.
@@kenmicallefjazzvinylaudiop6455 The thing is, the 'original sound of the recording' may not always be the best. Granted, jazz lovers such as yourself generally enjoy very good recordings, but what of those who enjoy other genres in which the mixes are tailored to 'lesser' audio systems with inexpensive components or smallish speakers with limited frequency response? (these recordings surely do exist having experienced many in my eclectic musical taste). Or early recordings with extremely limited frequency response as a consequence of the early equipment music was recorded on? It's a simple remedy if equipped: A twist on the tone controls can change the unlistenable to something somewhat enjoyable or maybe even better. And the better gear I own with tone controls have a means to bypass them offering the best of both worlds; it's win-win.
If you are a real music-lover without the dosh necessary for upscale vinyl reproduction and prefer in-hand media, make do with CDs instead (as man-o-man are they cheap second-hand currently!) and a lot less trouble if you move home regularly. If you get dosh and nicely settled with plenty of room for the gear and its space requirements* plus storage space for LPs, go ahead and do as Kens says, and when you want to add some nice bling for your system get yourself a Nagra reel-to-reel tape deck. *For guys generally (from my experience) all the gear needed will be surplus to requirements when a female significant-other arrives in their lives. ps It would be nice if somebody does a little survey asking youngish musicians about their systems and see how much they what they listen with and how much they spend on non-professional gear and what their general attitude to music reproduction is (hint-hint).
@@1999zrx1100 I do understand. I’m just saying that the average young musician isn’t interested in putting together a system. And that shouldn’t be a standard that anyone else adheres to.
If tone controls were bad, people like Bernie Grundman wouldn't EQ any projects which is ridiculous since EQ is pretty much the single most important tool in mastering. I don't propose to fiddle with EQ all the time. I use it to perfect the frequency response of my system to get closer to what's on the recording and don't touch it afterwards. If it degrades the sound you're either doing it wrong, you have a bad device or your system includes the best monitors in the world in a flawless studio setting and everything has a completely flat frequency response (highly unlikely even in studios where you get lots of comb filtering from the mixing desk). Even Steve Hoffman says he likes to eq his monitors with pink noise when mastering. If you don't do that you'll never hear what's in the recording and you'll eq your speaker's reversed frequency response into the mastering project.
Bernie is remastering from the original tape. The mastering job is about EQ. But a guy who puts tone controls on a mid-level receiver is not Bernie Grundman. And as you get into much better gear, there are not Cohn controls or loudness filters or anything like that.anything that obfuscates the original signal is a distortion
@@kenmicallefjazzvinylaudiop6455 In a mastering job Bernie basically equalizes the frequency response of the microphones/mic positions and at home you should equalize your speakers. EQ isn't distortion. You can't get rid of distortion but EQ can be compensated. What do you think the RIAA curve and the Dolby A system on tape are doing? You get both compensations two times (encode and decode) + mastering EQ + cutter head EQ. Even if you're doing nothing at home you 're already getting 6 (!) extreme EQ processings on top of each other. Why should all those compensations be done only to let your speakers undo this precise work?
Well Ken old boy you’re both right & wrong. I watched the guys video. He’s talking to a different audience. In this clip of yours you go out in the weeds, which Guys like me appreciate. I’ll conclude with this. I have a friend that listens to music with their IPhone speaker. Living with very modest means they upgraded to a JBL Bluetooth (modest) and was so happy & yes it was an improvement.
This is the problem with this industry and hobby - the overcompensation of arrogance. For this man to suggest you are not hearing the same music with your $300 turntable that he is with his $10,000 set up is bullsh*t. Yes there are nuances but all these audiophile equipment reviewers think they have the ears of Beethoven…heads up they don’t. They get their equipment either for free or at a severe discount for their reviews and are trying to flex but they are playing house. And the proof is in him calling modest means folks or newbies the lowest common denominator. What a jerk.
What I am offering are very basic set up tools. Think back to the 50s rather late 50s when people built their own amplifiers in their own speakers tube testers were in drugstores and you could buy what are now hundred dollar tubes for the equivalent of five cents.
@@kenmicallefjazzvinylaudiop6455 basic for who? Anyone under 50 has no idea what you’re on about. If you’re really speaking to them - rather than simply throwing stones at someone else - try evangelizing to the congregation born after the moon landing
You are an audiophile. I can appreciate what you're saying and your opinion. But that is just an opinion. I'm not here to defend Joy of Vinyl, nor criticize him, but I feel when people make a video saying that so and so is wrong, they are wrong themselves. I can give you one absolute truth, you have no idea exactly what another person is hearing. I am about to turn 63 years old and I have damaged my hearing over a life time. Machinery, tools, vacuums, listening to loud music with headphones, going to concerts and standing too close to the front are some of the things that has damaged my hearing. I know that I hear better in my left ear then my right. There really is no way I will hear things perfectly balanced. I use tone controls to raise the high frequency due to the fact that I can't hear them as well as I use to. And I know that because my wife hears things at higher pitches than i do. The tone controls are used to make up the flaws in my hearing and give me a more lively tone. And I also believe tubes are mainly for tone or why else would you use them? If you're looking for the cleanest absolute sound, you might as well stay digital. Guitarist don't use amps to get more separation or depth, they change amps and tubes strictly for the sound. And about trying to get the clearest sound that was intended by a band or engineer, that is a subject for debate. Music is produced to sound its best on the current popular medium that people consume. Why do most vinyl listeners feel that original pressings back in the day sound better? Because vinyl was king. Once CD's took over, vinyl recording quality seemed to take a hit due to the fact that it was not important anymore. How is music mostly consumed today? Streaming. And where is one of the most popular places to listen to it? In your car for one place, and from a phone. A lot of music today is made to sound good in your car, blue toothed to a stereo or speaker. I can appreciate the fact that you love music enough to experiment and spend enough money to make your system sound the best it can, to you. But doing reviews of equipment doesn't make you an expert, it makes you a tool for advertisement. And please understand that I am not trying to be mean here. Just wish people would realize that music is music. And the real mastery is in the creation of the song, not the playback. Enjoy the music.
Tone controls are great. I understand about the straight wire with gain ideal, but less circuitry does not necessarily mean better sound. Passive preamps are so basic that if you look inside you might not see any real circuitry and less wires than the fingers on one hand. Yet I've never heard one that has the grip and control of instruments, as much more complex preamps. "Pass"ive. preamps have become "passe." Why would anyone think they are getting more accurate sound by not using tone controls. Tonal judgement in the studio is based on what their ears hear using different amps, speakers, cables and acoustics than yours. To think that by not using tone controls you are getting a more accurate depiction, the same as theirs, couldn't be further from true. If your speakers, amp, cables, acoustics and ears were exactly identical to those in the studio, maybe then; but ONLY then Because of the above variables, each recording has its own different frequency response. Tone controls let you maximize and adjust for just the right balance. A recording which sounded just right tonally in the studio, will almost certainly sound not just right on your different system and your different environment and ears. I adjust the tone controls very sparingly, but adjust them until it sounds like I am getting accurate realistic timbre and harmonic overtone structure, like real un-amplified instruments ALWAYS have in real life. Leaving your tone controls off, with the tone defeat button, you only get lucky every now and then. The slightest increase of the treble control, (an eighth of an inch) can transform a dull recording into a recording that really cones to life. Or a decrease can make a harsh recording lose its harshness. Unamplified instruments don't sound harsh or unpleasant in real life. So tone controls used by people with good ears and judgement can "increase" accuracy and faithfullness to the original recording session.. I have a vintage amp whuch lets you have tone defeat or tone controls on. Maybe I can hear the slightest loss in transparency and space with the tone circuit on, but it is barely noticeable. My recordings having just the right tonal balance is a hundred times more noticeable and important. My soundstage is still floor to ceiling with the tone controls on or off. They don't ruin anything by a long shot; and enhance so much That same amp also has a button where you can switch between Class A and Class A/B. Back and forth dozens of times in a row.Much more degradation going from Class A to Class A/B. Also my bass control has turnover frequencies. One setting where its action is centered at 400 hertz versus 200 hertz, loses a bit of deep bass prominence, but the mid bass not only is way more coherent and even, but the bass guitar notes sound way up in the air, like it has even been spatially enhanced. With the bass control on flat or on the other setting which is the 200 hertz setting, the bass sounds like it is constricted to sounding like its coming from way down around the floor and not as even sounding. I think we have all been brainwashed. Tone controls with tone defeat is best.
I don’t like passive preamps. But there is a reason you don’t see tone controls on better equipment. The idea is to remain as pure as possible to the original signal. I like vintage gear, but the distortion levels are very high compared to today’s better gear.they do have circuits
I like your videos Ken. To each his own. I am a big fan of sonic purity. Class A, Vfets, the whole schmiel. But I really don't hear much difference in the decrease of purity by having tone controls on. As Bob Carver said, once you get to a certain level of clean; there are more important things to worry about. I used much modern straight wire with gain gear, and it surprises even myself how important & beneficial tone controls are to me. There has been a philosophical change, a more well thought out change, as to what is more important concerning the tiny degree of difference things make. Getting just the right balance on recordings that all have their own different frequency responses is extremely important. Losing 3% in openness is not that important, as that; or even near. Some of the vintage integrateds have pre in/main out connections on back. Going straight to the power amp section, bypassing the whole preamp circuitry, now that's a noteworthy difference. But losing 3% to get more accurate timbre and more even balance is a good tradeoff. Besides, I do elaborate mods on equipment and I can often get 10 times 3% inprovement in an evenings work. For less bright highs, increase your tracking force a smidgen. Works every time. I rarely listen to vinyl anymore though
I like sonic purity as long as it sounds good, often however, it’s crap hence tone controls! I can change the tone but can’t change how the music was originally recorded or gods sake! You are effectively saying that you have to put up with what ever you are given whether you like the sound or not. Patent nonsense!
Tone controls do not ruin the sound. They can restore dulled harmonics, which the instrument would never sound like in real life. Or they can reduce the electronicy garbagy sounds that acoustic instruments never make in real life either. So how is that getting farther away from what is intended? It is getting closer to what is intended. Getting the timbre of the instruments correct. Unless the studios intention was for you to hear trumpets that don't really sound like trumpets or pianos that don't really sound like pianos etc. My system is ultra clean even when I use tone controls. And what they correct correctis far more important than any miniscule minuses that they cause during the process. I don't personally have to put up with anything. Using tone controls sparingly, i'm not sure I can think of one recording that doesn't sound good on my system. Maybe half of them would sound good without them, and even then, the balance would not be near as perfect.So what's the better option? Being able to enjoy all your recordings or half or less than half of them?
I agree that you need to spend at least two grand for a quality TT. Anything less is practically a toy and not hi-fi. Regarding the J. Sikora, a thirty-six thousand dollar deck with a four thousand dollar tonearm is not a well-balanced table. You want your tonearm to be about a quarter of the total cost of the 'table, your cartridge another quarter with the other half going to the deck.
If you want to hear it as the musicians intended, why don't you play back on a ceramic cartridge with a 10 gram tracking force through a 50s budget record changer.
The old record players do not do a good as job as modern technology. No way shape or form. I have a thorns TD 124 from 1957. It’s a great machine, but it’s very noisy. But put an ortofon SPU on it and it sails
No. If you want to hear it "as the artist intended" you should get a 30ips copy of the master tape, and play it on an Ampex 300 tape machine through a pair of RCA LC1A speakers in the famous “furnace” cabinets.
@@kenmicallefjazzvinylaudiop6455 Sorry to hear your 124 is noisy Ken, I have a MkII from 1966 and I’ve got it nice and quiet using motor springs from Hanze Hi-fi in place of the rubber grommets and a metal idler wheel from Audio Silente. The biggest improvement of all was a blue drive belt from an eBay seller. It is slightly longer than the standard belt yet had more grip, this means it transfers less vibration between motor pulley and idler. Another important tip is to clean all the running surfaces to a shiny finish, it really helps. Result is no significant noise or rumble.
For me on the “Mk1” iit’s the new Motor Grommets, new Idler Wheel, and original belt that had very little wear. The replacement belts I tried were noisy..Main bearing Bronze End Cap too made a big difference..@@sensational_cellar8606
@@sensational_cellar8606 thanks. I do have the springs and the motor has been dropped. I meant that it is noisy and comparison to a modern turntable. There’s just no getting around that. The inside of the 124 is like a watch lots of moving parts those are reflected. tell me more about that blue belt?
Ken, I wish you wouldn't dish it out to fellow You Tubers. I've never heard the Audiophiliac -Steve Guttenberg, John DeVore, Herb Reichert, Steve Huff, John Darko, etc.. . mention other content makers so disparagingly as you do. We're all adults with critical thinking and discernment capabilities. It's a real turn off......literally.
Oh, whatever. UA-cam isn’t a communist monolith. I want to hear different opinions, I want to hear when people have different ideas and think others’ ideas are bad (and why).
I agree 1999zrx1100 - Ken wasn’t negative and mean - he merely disagreed and provided important reasons why. I would hope the UA-camr he is speaking of would reply back and thank Ken for his input. It would be great to even have them do a video together. Finally I agree that you do “get what you pay for” and would say that $750-$1,000 is close to a minimum plus a nice cartridge. I have Clearaudio turntables (one stereo and the other mono) which I bought used from a dealer. I also use Hana cartridges ML (for stereo) and the Hana mono cart. It has been a 3-4 year journey to get where I am at - but worth it. I am going to go listen now. 😊
Most of my video was not talking about audible issues. VTA and VF and leveling your turntable and tone arm adjustment are all standard practices of turntable set up. Tone Controls are junk. They don’t get you closer to the music they get you further away.
Very well said Ken. As someone who has been into audio equipment since 1972, my goal was always to be able to extract everything on the recording. At 18 I has a system that was about $600, today that system would be $4500. So it amazes me how so many people who have gotten into vinyl in the last 10 years take a stance that spending more than $1000 on a vinyl playback system is all you need. They’ll stand on a line discussing this while waiting for their $7 starbucks coffee
You’re exactly right, it’s amazing what quality you get today for the money compared to the 70’s yet guys still think it’s crazy money. 😎
But $1000 phones. Priorities.
Oscar Wilde once observed of someone 'A man who knows the cost of everything...& the value of nothing' I think he was reffering to cynicism..but it feels relevant here. 🙂
Well quoted. It fits perfectly.
Ken, the idea that what is stamped into our media is the artist’s original intent is naive thinking. Defeatable tone controls offer the OPTION of applying a bit of EQ to diminish the shortcomings of so many releases. Why would anyone subject themselves to listening to a crap pressing because of some misconceived dogma? I can’t count how often I was disappointed by an LP’s sound quality on first play. Fortunately there’s a cool remedy at hand to help enhance its listenability. It’s called a tone control. Good vinyl advice especially for newbies. Thanks.
Recently I came across a needle drop the notorious Michael Fremer had done of a certain favorite artist of mine with the 300k dollar Wilson-Benesch turntable. I thought, wow, this sounds amazing! I knew I had the same pressing he'd used, so I decided to take a comparative listen on my humble, mostly vintage setup. My setup was a Lenco L75 with Ortofon as212 arm and an Audio-Technica vm95ml cartridge/stylus, some no name bull crap phono pre, a 70's Toshiba receiver and Triangle Br03 speakers. And wouldn't you know, every single thing I heard on Fremer's needle drop I could pick up with my setup. Of course it didn't sound as sharp and precise as Fremers but his stuff better sound beautiful. (Although my copy of the record was in much better shape than his.)
Point is, you kinda make it up to be like you need to pour thousands of dollars into your system before you can start to hear or appreciate your records and I don't think that's true. Obviously, it will only get better once you start finessing your setup and adding finer stuff, especially in terms of imaging and instrument placement etc. but it's not like you can't hear - let alone connect with and appreciate - what's there with a lesser deck.
As a vintage Luxman gear collector I appreciate having tone controls on my SS and tube preamps. Luxman C1000 (Tim de Paravicini) ) CL350, CL35 MkIII (currently being restored).👍👍
I'm "pro" tone control, recorded music is meant to be a "planned illusion" anyway! They put 16, 24 (or more these days) together on a two track! Sound is subjective anyway, your never going to get it to sound like the speakers they have in the studio! It's good to be able to tone down a super bright recording, or boost the bass a little for a recording that's lacking! Just my opinion, we all entitled to it! Great channel!😊
You don’t see Tom controls on better gear, in fact, you see as little as possible. The idea is to remain as pure as possible to the original signal. Anything added to the original signal is not the original sound or anywhere close to it
Tone controls do not get you further away from the intentions of the artist & recording. Bad mastering engineers, less than great pressings, warps etc. add much more distortion than well designed tone controls. If the mastering engineer has bad taste ot bad hearing; that's what takes you further away from the music. Not correcting brightness or dullness using tone controls to get the timbre correct, which so many incompetent mastering personnel can't do or don't want to do on purpose. To get a frequency response that sounds better in cars for sales, where your average person listens to music the most. "Correcting Wrongs", either because of incompetence or on purpose is what tone controls can do; and that is a GREAT thing. If they take 3 or 4% away to give you what is more accurate timber; then that's the small price you have to pay. Worth it!
OR...OR...you can spend thousands and thousands of dollars buying one cable after another, which some people use as tone controls, to get just that right balance, that a simple 1/10 inch turn of a tone control can do the same thing. I guess the former is the Audiophile way; which seems to always be the most tortuous, expensive way, more often than not. Reminds one of the joke; the how many people (insert your ethnic group of choice) does it take to screw in a light bulb? Four; one to hold the light bulb and three people to spin the chair around in circles. Same thing.Ridiculous. Don't listen to anyone and listen for yourself is always my best advice, because it is the best advice there is.
I guess i don't agree with much said in the video. The most glaring is saying that what is on the record is what the artist intended or what it was like in the studio. No record or any playback medium will get you there no matter what gear you play it on. It's not like the artist is going to walk into you room and say "well that's not the way I wanted it to sound, get more expensive gear". Your best bet is to get what you can afford and sounds good to you and enjoy your music.
Entirely fair and reasonable Ken. I agree with you on tone controls, though you can find them on high end integrateds, such as Luxman and Accuphase. That said, I do think a balance control is worthwhile.
So True, I've found over the years i've up graded my Turntable & tried different cartridges & phono stages, I had a Project transistor Phono stage & was Superb for years, then I upgraded to a Valve Project 500 Pounds ( uk ) And I can hear some things in the Mix, even compilation Lp's sound better with well setup MM cartidge..the K tel type. Even slightly scratched records sound better than Cd's its the attack of the instruments. Some cheeper turntable can be setup better to get the best of them..
Thats it
Before you stands an ‘Audiophile Karen’ in all its glory.
There are some times he has a point but I have to agree with you on this post. These attitudes with a big slice of our community is exactly why audiophilia has zero traction with younger people. This binary elitist thinking is kryptonite to anyone under 40-45.
I liked this video, Ken. Except for your discussion of tone control. I've worked with multitrack at home & in the studio at my college (yeah, it's been a while) & I've always been well aware that the room in which I'm working & listening is... *that* room. The listener is in *their* room. The EQ I applied that sounded good in my room on the day I applied it will not sound the same in their room.Even in *my* room I might feel differently about that sound in November 1983 than I do in October 2024. We always used 2 sets of speakers (little + big) to judge the sound. We didn't normally listen via headphones. A well designed EQ is an enhancement to the listening experience. It's *fun* & I am more about enjoying the experience of listening to a CD (or LP) than being "true to what the artist intended" (which may really be about what the mix engineer intended).
There’s a reason you don’t see town control on better gear. Actually you see as little as possible. So the signal can remain as pure as possible. If you are a recording engineer, you know that.
@@kenmicallefjazzvinylaudiop6455 But we don't always want a "pure" signal. That's why guitarists put a mic in front of their amp instead of using a direct connection. Maybe you choose a phono cartridge that you feel gives an uncolored reproduction. I might pick one that adds some warmth. Of course this discussion has continued for decades, but I think options are wonderful.
"Really bad advice "
well the title says it all about this video .
I can go through my records/CDs and point out to you, "this one has no top end", "this one has no bottom end", etc. That is not in my opinion "what the musicians wanted you to hear". And if it was they were wrong! It's not the equipment that needs tone controls, it's the recordings. So I consider McIntosh's new EQ a Godsend (even though, amazingly, there's no adjustment available between 3000 and 10000 cycles). Thanks for a very interesting video!
Back in the day there was a saying, "Garbage in, garbage out." If you don't begin with a good starting point that gets the music out of the grooves then no matter how great, or expensive, the rest of the system is it's not gonna sound good. In other words, I tell folks, put your big money in the table/arm/cartridge, then work from there. Many are aghast when I say that speakers are the least important part of your system. A good speaker simply lets you hear the inadequacies of the rest of your system. BTW, my sound begins with an original SOTA Sapphire, upgraded to current specs some time ago, Origin Live Illustrious arm, Kiseki Purpleheart OS. The resultant music does does come out of my Tympanis, it floats in front of them.
I might add that a good starting point is a good moving magnet cartridge, the higher output signal allows a significantly less expensive , or less a less complicated amplification chain, returning to the straight wire with gain amplification goal for better sound. The design also delivers an impact on rock music that is not characteristic of other designs at a similar price. both the cartridge and the speakers are the voice of the system, but without a solid core amplification, they don't mean much. fortunately good amplification doesn't have to cost like a good turntable set up.
I agree. The Linn "source first" approach. Which after many years in audio I adopted. But -- more recently I lean towards those who recommend putting a little more in speakers and a little less in preamp/amp.
Thanks for sharing your experience
I've got Technics SL1200GR and the leveling feet are Awesome with lots of travel. I've had zero issues with leveling this awesome turntable. Also the VTA adjustments are simple and straightforward. I agree on phono pre, I got the project tube box s2 for my 2nd turntable. The GR2 is running through the internal phono pre of my Marantz model 50 integrated, so far I'm very pleased with my setup, at some point ill try the GR2 with the tube box s2 to hear any differences. Good video! Peace from RI
Well done Ken keep up the good work I recently bought some New Old stock 6922 for my headphone amp and I like the changes.! BTW my pro- ject pro turntable is doing a great job coming from a vintage Philips GA 212!
You said it like I believe it is. And kept your cool. Bravo 🎉
Is the intention in listening to music to hear what the artist intended or for me to enjoy the music? If I enjoy the music on an inexpensive tt with a built in phono stage and powered speakers, am I wrong? Would an artist forbid me from buying their music because my kit isn't good enough (or isn't the same as their kit). Should I give it up and not listen to music? If the goal is to enjoy music, then whatever works for the person listening to the music is right.
You Sir, is why the word “Audiophile” is such a dirty word among music lovers. And calling new vinyl adopters the “lowest common denominator” is not only incredibly condescending, it’s downright rude! I have a modest system with a Pro-Ject Debut Pro, Ifi Zen phono stage, Cambridge Audio AX-A35 and some early nineties Celestion speakers. And that is all I need. I wouldn’t spend £30,000 on a turntable if I HAD the money. I find your attitude dismissive in the extreme of those who can’t afford YOUR level of gear. I enjoy my records, I don’t look at the gear I’m playing it on!
You totally misunderstand what I’m saying. His video was made to address the lowest common denominator. And it was full of false hoods. Tube rolling is not the same as adjusting tone. Tone controls take you further away from the music. I guess you didn’t notice but I said it $650 turntable sounded great. The new project T2.people get alarmed at the thought of taking on additional knowledge.
@@quocrip well said ! The whole video was just an exercise in talking about his expensive set up. I loved the “G force on a turntable” bit. Absolutely no grip on reality.
No no no dont you understand Ken has all the answers and he’s giving them out for FREE
@@kenmicallefjazzvinylaudiop6455Yes, it was good of you to praise the Pro-Ject turntable. I for one don’t get alarmed by additional information, after all I bought my turntable from doing my due diligence. What I was implying was that Rick and your good self are talking to people at different ends of the food chain. You’re at the multi thousands of dollars level. Most people aren’t ever going to be likely to be in a position to own something like that. That was all. I would like to consider myself as an audiophile, but I have a very limited budget to improve things. At the moment I’m perfectly happy with my system, but I wouldn’t gear shame anyone for having “inferior” equipment to mine. There’s plenty of room for all of us to coexist in the audio world. I wish you luck with your endeavours Ken.
@@ivc5150 Just for kicks put a book under one side of your 'table and give it a listen.
GM ☕️🍩
A little care and patience pays off with vinyl.
Isolation being key …a tt is a mechanical device ..that works on mechanical principles…so everything adds up.
Have a great Sunday
There's a few things money can't buy:
1. A good pair of ears
2. Musical Talent
One thing we know is real beyond a doubt is the placebo effect.
Well said brother.
The big issue with everything you state is the presupposition that the mastering and pressing is optimal, when it is not.
I enjoyed how articulately this guy could describe what a better turntable can do. recording technology is so far ahead of vinyl record play back technology , it seems there is almost no limit to what a better turntable can bring to light from even a record you know well.
He does miss a small point with the non adjustable Rega designs, they are designed to be a completely in house rega deal, built for rega cartridges, which don't even need a measuring tool to be correctly installed on a Rega arm, just set the arm weight as indicated. his comment about his downforce scale is factual, except records, often audiophile releases, come in different thicknesses .
As for controls, straight wire with gain is the conceptual goal, and should always be kept in mind , but like every other amplification, results depend on quality. An engineer is using tone controls when he decides what goes on the record., nothing says you have to agree , or your playback area might need help.
A famous example is a Led Zeppelin record that was too dynamic to play on a cheap record players , so was recut for a milder impact upon playback. One can spend the money to get a rare original pressing, or just turn the bass back up if you have quality tone controls.
one thing that often gets overlooked is the importance of the tone arm, because most come with the table and a cartridge upgrade is usually the first weak link in an audio chain. But consider, a tone arm that allows the cartridge to work better, will bring that benefit to every cartridge purchased through the years . And better cartridges tend to be consumable items.
Totally agree on the impact of the tonearm; changing mine brought a far bigger sonic improvement than other upgrades I'd put in place, like phono stage, cabling, etc. Blew my tiny mind.
I buy Regas because I can set them up myself with no issues. A protractor? Please.
Ken thinks you should suffer through lousy sounding records for the sake of “purity”. 🥴
I think records were made to be enjoyed, and if you aren’t enjoying it, you should do whatever you want to make it sound better to YOU.
Playing your record. Find a good pressing. Not that hard. That is exactly what Ken thinks.
@@kenmicallefjazzvinylaudiop6455 you may not realize this, but the vast majority of people don’t have unlimited funds to throw at numerous pressings in order to find a “good” one. Not that hard to figure that out.
Spending money on a system is all relative, a system is as good as its weakest link. There are a lot of goodies in those vinyl records to retrieve and it costs money to get them out. Tone controls are useful in many situations such as room size and furniture dynamics, also many records are not the most perfect mix over time and some need adjustment.
I have slowly built up, over the years, my system using , for the most part, the weakest link philosophy. Now , as an old guy with a lot of records, I happily have a pretty nice playback system for them.
I might add that the extreme subjectivity of how humans hear makes the entire deal dependent on how far one chooses to chase an illusion, because what you hear inside your head is only your individual reality at the time, it is only what you think, which will always be perceived as correct. a kid with a Childs record player might be enjoying his experience more than someone with a multi thousand dollar system. it's all dependent on what you think you hear.
What I have learned from my DECADES in high-end audio: the best system is the one that gets you to SIT DOWN AND LISTEN.
The best systems FOR YOU is the one that makes most or even all of your current collection sound a way that gets your feet tapping almost everytime.
The best system is the one that gets you head banging, your air conducting, you playing air guitar or air piano, you singing to the songs that bring back childhood and teen years memories.
.....everyone's music tastes are subjective; but in the end if the system does not ENGAGE....what's the point ???
Shoot I got so many sweet tables for $100. I Love my Technics SL-1900 Auto
In that same order of ideas, imagine a sound engineer mixing a live band, with a mixer with volume knobs only, so that the audience hears the band as they want to be heard.
Anyways, if you want to hear a band in its purest form, it's better to go to a small jazz club with good acoustics and no amplification.
Cheers, Ken! Subscribed. 🍺
v good video. thx ken
Hi love what your doing.
What about McIntosh there expensive they have tone control, love the Mac sound don’t you ?
Today’s McIntosh is not yesterday is McIntosh. Their gear is all about the bling now, blue lights, and glowing platters. Thank you.
The only thing that can justify its high price is the cartridge. Everything else is either snake oil or just extravagance. Even the mentioned 4000 USD without the cartridge is too much.
The turntable should be accurate and have a silent mechanism. Period.
Vynil as a medium CANNOT deliver what you suggest. Don't get me wrong, I prefer vinyl, but well-mastered FLAC or DSD (unfortunately, a lot of today's music is badly mastered) is better than vinyl in terms of detail and soundstage. Another question is whether that sound suits the human ear better, and more importantly, the brain.
With "I prefer vinyl" I made my choice.
But that doesn't mean that the things claimed in this video are true.
thank u for u video. and advice. true. u get what pay for. is so true. vinyl is getting very expensive now cheers
Vinyl is great I love it, play it on my trusted and well cared for Linn Axis based system, as I said I love it. But! Vinyl is still stylus dragging through a plastic trough, it just is, and this creates noise that has to be overcome.! No matter how much you spend a good deal of t/t tech is about overcoming surface noise! I have to admit however to having an issue with the term ‘ Audiophile’ which is a nonsense label anyway! It is after all very subjective stuff! Can always gat a cd player of course!
One of the biggest problems, I think, is no one shops at an audio store{there are very few now} to hear the difference or read experts with credentials as an audio reviewer. UA-cam is the wild west an anybody can say anything they want without evidence. A store will let you borrow cables or listen to speakers and amps before you buy. Things can be done on the cheap if you know what to look for, like finding Mullard 12 Ax7 tubes branded Hammond or finding a very quiet AR/AX turntable in you grandparents basement They may even have records just lying around for the taking. Compare and trust your ears!
Well said Ken!
Get over yourself. Tone controls, if you want them, are great and can also be bypassed.
You don't always get what you pay for and you made a demonstration of it in your video, by naming products that gives you bigger return for your money.
I can only talk about my own experience. I have a modest system, composed by a Leak Stereo 130 amplifier, a Leak CD transport, a Pro-ject RPM 4 turntable and a pair of B&W 607 S2’s. It sounded fine and suited well my 12 square meter listening room. I wasn’t bvery happy with what I was hearing from my turntable, so I’ve upgraded the cartridge from a 2M red to a 2M blue. Huge improvement. Then I added an IFI phone stage. Another huge leap in the right direction. Then finally a considerable investment (considering the overall cost of my system - around 3.000 €) on Audioquest cables. Also a big improvement. All the system and upgrades were influenced by people like Steve Guttenberg, Francisco del Pozo, Darko Audio, local store owners, magazine reviews, etc. I’ll conclude saying that I agree with Ken. It’s been my experience that investing in better gear has a big impact on your system. As long as there is good synergy between components.
I might add that how I understood his point about matching cables to the system is the fact they they become part of a circuit, and any change in a circuit will effect performance. and the change is unknown until the wire is actually in the circuit.
The Tone derangement syndrome is a real thing. Those dreadful knobs that help solve poor recordings discrepancies and room acoustics, have no business being next to the volume knob.
How can a turntable designer and engineer don't believe in antiskating? Even if you don't hear a difference I don't want the suspension of my cartridge to run on the edge all the time. That's like putting bricks in the back of your car to the point where the springs are nearly fully compressed and expect to be able to drive on a bumpy road at high speeds.
In your opinion tone controls suck. Some of us seriously disagree but then we don't listen to jazz either.
@@Keith-ux9ku Tom controls don’t get you closer to the original sound of the recording. They get you farther away.
@@kenmicallefjazzvinylaudiop6455 The thing is, the 'original sound of the recording' may not always be the best. Granted, jazz lovers such as yourself generally enjoy very good recordings, but what of those who enjoy other genres in which the mixes are tailored to 'lesser' audio systems with inexpensive components or smallish speakers with limited frequency response? (these recordings surely do exist having experienced many in my eclectic musical taste). Or early recordings with extremely limited frequency response as a consequence of the early equipment music was recorded on?
It's a simple remedy if equipped: A twist on the tone controls can change the unlistenable to something somewhat enjoyable or maybe even better. And the better gear I own with tone controls have a means to bypass them offering the best of both worlds; it's win-win.
If you are a real music-lover without the dosh necessary for upscale vinyl reproduction and prefer in-hand media, make do with CDs instead (as man-o-man are they cheap second-hand currently!) and a lot less trouble if you move home regularly. If you get dosh and nicely settled with plenty of room for the gear and its space requirements* plus storage space for LPs, go ahead and do as Kens says, and when you want to add some nice bling for your system get yourself a Nagra reel-to-reel tape deck. *For guys generally (from my experience) all the gear needed will be surplus to requirements when a female significant-other arrives in their lives. ps It would be nice if somebody does a little survey asking youngish musicians about their systems and see how much they what they listen with and how much they spend on non-professional gear and what their general attitude to music reproduction is (hint-hint).
And, you have more wisdom than I do
Young musicians are anomalies. Short attention spans. Ear buds. Yet somehow are more skilled than ever in many ways. Their taste does need work.
@@kenmicallefjazzvinylaudiop6455 Wisdom tempered by having a significant other... [Continued on page 94 (ref. Private Eye magazine)]
Eventually you’ll have your own place and understand.
@@1999zrx1100 I do understand. I’m just saying that the average young musician isn’t interested in putting together a system. And that shouldn’t be a standard that anyone else adheres to.
If tone controls were bad, people like Bernie Grundman wouldn't EQ any projects which is ridiculous since EQ is pretty much the single most important tool in mastering. I don't propose to fiddle with EQ all the time. I use it to perfect the frequency response of my system to get closer to what's on the recording and don't touch it afterwards. If it degrades the sound you're either doing it wrong, you have a bad device or your system includes the best monitors in the world in a flawless studio setting and everything has a completely flat frequency response (highly unlikely even in studios where you get lots of comb filtering from the mixing desk). Even Steve Hoffman says he likes to eq his monitors with pink noise when mastering. If you don't do that you'll never hear what's in the recording and you'll eq your speaker's reversed frequency response into the mastering project.
Bernie is remastering from the original tape. The mastering job is about EQ. But a guy who puts tone controls on a mid-level receiver is not Bernie Grundman. And as you get into much better gear, there are not Cohn controls or loudness filters or anything like that.anything that obfuscates the original signal is a distortion
@@kenmicallefjazzvinylaudiop6455 In a mastering job Bernie basically equalizes the frequency response of the microphones/mic positions and at home you should equalize your speakers. EQ isn't distortion. You can't get rid of distortion but EQ can be compensated. What do you think the RIAA curve and the Dolby A system on tape are doing? You get both compensations two times (encode and decode) + mastering EQ + cutter head EQ. Even if you're doing nothing at home you 're already getting 6 (!) extreme EQ processings on top of each other. Why should all those compensations be done only to let your speakers undo this precise work?
@@kenmicallefjazzvinylaudiop6455 Unless of course the original signal requires obfuscation.
Well Ken old boy you’re both right & wrong. I watched the guys video. He’s talking to a different audience. In this clip of yours you go out in the weeds, which Guys like me appreciate. I’ll conclude with this. I have a friend that listens to music with their IPhone speaker. Living with very modest means they upgraded to a JBL Bluetooth (modest) and was so happy & yes it was an improvement.
And it’s always fascinated me that the iPhone speaker sounds freaking incredible! Thank you
This is the problem with this industry and hobby - the overcompensation of arrogance. For this man to suggest you are not hearing the same music with your $300 turntable that he is with his $10,000 set up is bullsh*t. Yes there are nuances but all these audiophile equipment reviewers think they have the ears of Beethoven…heads up they don’t. They get their equipment either for free or at a severe discount for their reviews and are trying to flex but they are playing house. And the proof is in him calling modest means folks or newbies the lowest common denominator. What a jerk.
I hadn't seen one of your videos in a while but this one was a turn off.
"You get what you pay for whether it's shoes or books." WTF?
Ken unlike you and I are familiar by hearing various brands. CES Vegas and other like Chicago. With that said hearing is believing. Just saying...
But don’t you know we are crazy?!
@@kenmicallefjazzvinylaudiop6455
Yes we are it is part of being Audiophiles and vinyl junkies and Jazz
Build quality is one thing. This is borderline mental illness.
What I am offering are very basic set up tools. Think back to the 50s rather late 50s when people built their own amplifiers in their own speakers tube testers were in drugstores and you could buy what are now hundred dollar tubes for the equivalent of five cents.
@@kenmicallefjazzvinylaudiop6455 basic for who? Anyone under 50 has no idea what you’re on about. If you’re really speaking to them - rather than simply throwing stones at someone else - try evangelizing to the congregation born after the moon landing
You are an audiophile. I can appreciate what you're saying and your opinion. But that is just an opinion. I'm not here to defend Joy of Vinyl, nor criticize him, but I feel when people make a video saying that so and so is wrong, they are wrong themselves. I can give you one absolute truth, you have no idea exactly what another person is hearing. I am about to turn 63 years old and I have damaged my hearing over a life time. Machinery, tools, vacuums, listening to loud music with headphones, going to concerts and standing too close to the front are some of the things that has damaged my hearing. I know that I hear better in my left ear then my right. There really is no way I will hear things perfectly balanced. I use tone controls to raise the high frequency due to the fact that I can't hear them as well as I use to. And I know that because my wife hears things at higher pitches than i do. The tone controls are used to make up the flaws in my hearing and give me a more lively tone. And I also believe tubes are mainly for tone or why else would you use them? If you're looking for the cleanest absolute sound, you might as well stay digital. Guitarist don't use amps to get more separation or depth, they change amps and tubes strictly for the sound. And about trying to get the clearest sound that was intended by a band or engineer, that is a subject for debate. Music is produced to sound its best on the current popular medium that people consume. Why do most vinyl listeners feel that original pressings back in the day sound better? Because vinyl was king. Once CD's took over, vinyl recording quality seemed to take a hit due to the fact that it was not important anymore. How is music mostly consumed today? Streaming. And where is one of the most popular places to listen to it? In your car for one place, and from a phone. A lot of music today is made to sound good in your car, blue toothed to a stereo or speaker.
I can appreciate the fact that you love music enough to experiment and spend enough money to make your system sound the best it can, to you. But doing reviews of equipment doesn't make you an expert, it makes you a tool for advertisement.
And please understand that I am not trying to be mean here. Just wish people would realize that music is music. And the real mastery is in the creation of the song, not the playback. Enjoy the music.
Good honest info. It's expensive to get great vinyl playback. I'm not sure why people feel the need to sugar coat that fact.
I won't be back
"Lowest common denominator" who do you think you are - unsubscribed
Yes you are telling people to spend 1000s and 1000s of dollars
Great Video - especially for newbies and newcomers
You come from a high end to debate a lowend perspective. Very unfitting.
Right on Ken. The guy that made that video is a classic case of the blind leading the blind.
This kind of discussion is so stale. Almost talking apples and oranges. It's equipment shaming essentially.
Nobodies talk vinyl qulity engenerig beacose bad recording sound is bad 70-80 is good recording
Tone controls are great. I understand about the straight wire with gain ideal, but less circuitry does not necessarily mean better sound. Passive preamps are so basic that if you look inside you might not see any real circuitry and less wires than the fingers on one hand. Yet I've never heard one that has the grip and control of instruments, as much more complex preamps. "Pass"ive. preamps have become "passe." Why would anyone think they are getting more accurate sound by not using tone controls. Tonal judgement in the studio is based on what their ears hear using different amps, speakers, cables and acoustics than yours. To think that by not using tone controls you are getting a more accurate depiction, the same as theirs, couldn't be further from true. If your speakers, amp, cables, acoustics and ears were exactly identical to those in the studio, maybe then; but ONLY then
Because of the above variables, each recording has its own different frequency response. Tone controls let you maximize and adjust for just the right balance. A recording which sounded just right tonally in the studio, will almost certainly sound not just right on your different system and your different environment and ears. I adjust the tone controls very sparingly, but adjust them until it sounds like I am getting accurate realistic timbre and harmonic overtone structure, like real un-amplified instruments ALWAYS have in real life. Leaving your tone controls off, with the tone defeat button, you only get lucky every now and then. The slightest increase of the treble control, (an eighth of an inch) can transform a dull recording into a recording that really cones to life. Or a decrease can make a harsh recording lose its harshness. Unamplified instruments don't sound harsh or unpleasant in real life. So tone controls used by people with good ears and judgement can "increase" accuracy and faithfullness to the original recording session..
I have a vintage amp whuch lets you have tone defeat or tone controls on. Maybe I can hear the slightest loss in transparency and space with the tone circuit on, but it is barely noticeable. My recordings having just the right tonal balance is a hundred times more noticeable and important. My soundstage is still floor to ceiling with the tone controls on or off. They don't ruin anything by a long shot; and enhance so much That same amp also has a button where you can switch between Class A and Class A/B. Back and forth dozens of times in a row.Much more degradation going from Class A to Class A/B.
Also my bass control has turnover frequencies. One setting where its action is centered at 400 hertz versus 200 hertz, loses a bit of deep bass prominence, but the mid bass not only is way more coherent and even, but the bass guitar notes sound way up in the air, like it has even been spatially enhanced. With the bass control on flat or on the other setting which is the 200 hertz setting, the bass sounds like it is constricted to sounding like its coming from way down around the floor and not as even sounding. I think we have all been brainwashed. Tone controls with tone defeat is best.
I don’t like passive preamps. But there is a reason you don’t see tone controls on better equipment. The idea is to remain as pure as possible to the original signal. I like vintage gear, but the distortion levels are very high compared to today’s better gear.they do have circuits
I like your videos Ken. To each his own. I am a big fan of sonic purity. Class A, Vfets, the whole schmiel. But I really don't hear much difference in the decrease of purity by having tone controls on. As Bob Carver said, once you get to a certain level of clean; there are more important things to worry about. I used much modern straight wire with gain gear, and it surprises even myself how important & beneficial tone controls are to me. There has been a philosophical change, a more well thought out change, as to what is more important concerning the tiny degree of difference things make. Getting just the right balance on recordings that all have their own different frequency responses is
extremely important. Losing 3% in openness is not that important, as that; or even near. Some of the vintage integrateds have pre in/main out connections on back. Going straight to the power amp section, bypassing the whole preamp circuitry, now that's a noteworthy difference. But losing 3% to get more accurate timbre and more even balance is a good tradeoff. Besides, I do elaborate mods on equipment and I can often get 10 times 3% inprovement in an evenings work. For less bright highs, increase your tracking force a smidgen. Works every time. I rarely listen to vinyl anymore though
I like sonic purity as long as it sounds good, often however, it’s crap hence tone controls! I can change the tone but can’t change how the music was originally recorded or gods sake! You are effectively saying that you have to put up with what ever you are given whether you like the sound or not. Patent nonsense!
Tone controls do not ruin the sound. They can restore dulled harmonics, which the instrument would never sound like in real life. Or they can reduce the electronicy garbagy sounds that acoustic instruments never make in real life either. So how is that getting farther away from what is intended? It is getting closer to what is intended. Getting the timbre of the instruments correct. Unless the studios intention was for you to hear trumpets that don't really sound like trumpets or pianos that don't really sound like pianos etc.
My system is ultra clean even when I use tone controls. And what they correct correctis far more important than any miniscule minuses that they cause during the process. I don't personally have to put up with anything. Using tone controls sparingly, i'm not sure I can think of one recording that doesn't sound good on my system. Maybe half of them would sound good without them, and even then, the balance would not be near as perfect.So what's the better option? Being able to enjoy all your recordings or half or less than half of them?
I agree that you need to spend at least two grand for a quality TT. Anything less is practically a toy and not hi-fi. Regarding the J. Sikora, a thirty-six thousand dollar deck with a four thousand dollar tonearm is not a well-balanced table. You want your tonearm to be about a quarter of the total cost of the 'table, your cartridge another quarter with the other half going to the deck.
If you want to hear it as the musicians intended, why don't you play back on a ceramic cartridge with a 10 gram tracking force through a 50s budget record changer.
The old record players do not do a good as job as modern technology. No way shape or form. I have a thorns TD 124 from 1957. It’s a great machine, but it’s very noisy. But put an ortofon SPU on it and it sails
No. If you want to hear it "as the artist intended" you should get a 30ips copy of the master tape, and play it on an Ampex 300 tape machine through a pair of RCA LC1A speakers in the famous “furnace” cabinets.
@@kenmicallefjazzvinylaudiop6455 Sorry to hear your 124 is noisy Ken, I have a MkII from 1966 and I’ve got it nice and quiet using motor springs from Hanze Hi-fi in place of the rubber grommets and a metal idler wheel from Audio Silente. The biggest improvement of all was a blue drive belt from an eBay seller. It is slightly longer than the standard belt yet had more grip, this means it transfers less vibration between motor pulley and idler. Another important tip is to clean all the running surfaces to a shiny finish, it really helps. Result is no significant noise or rumble.
For me on the “Mk1” iit’s the new Motor Grommets, new Idler Wheel, and original belt that had very little wear. The replacement belts I tried were noisy..Main bearing Bronze End Cap too made a big difference..@@sensational_cellar8606
@@sensational_cellar8606 thanks. I do have the springs and the motor has been dropped. I meant that it is noisy and comparison to a modern turntable. There’s just no getting around that. The inside of the 124 is like a watch lots of moving parts those are reflected. tell me more about that blue belt?
Ken, I wish you wouldn't dish it out to fellow You Tubers. I've never heard the Audiophiliac -Steve Guttenberg, John DeVore, Herb Reichert, Steve Huff, John Darko, etc.. . mention other content makers so disparagingly as you do. We're all adults with critical thinking and discernment capabilities. It's a real turn off......literally.
Oh, whatever. UA-cam isn’t a communist monolith. I want to hear different opinions, I want to hear when people have different ideas and think others’ ideas are bad (and why).
I agree 1999zrx1100 - Ken wasn’t negative and mean - he merely disagreed and provided important reasons why. I would hope the UA-camr he is speaking of would reply back and thank Ken for his input. It would be great to even have them do a video together. Finally I agree that you do “get what you pay for” and would say that $750-$1,000 is close to a minimum plus a nice cartridge. I have Clearaudio turntables (one stereo and the other mono) which I bought used from a dealer. I also use Hana cartridges ML (for stereo) and the Hana mono cart. It has been a 3-4 year journey to get where I am at - but worth it. I am going to go listen now. 😊
Really!
What a pussy comment. Tell me your voting for Kamala Harris without telling me your voting for Kamala Harris.
I heard another UA-camr having a go at other channels. It lacks class and so far, I’ve only seen Americans do it. I can’t subscribe to that. Adios
this guy talks uuter rubbish ,,
Old guys ears. Upper and lower frequencies are getting worse. Happens to everyone with age. Dont waste money.
Most of my video was not talking about audible issues. VTA and VF and leveling your turntable and tone arm adjustment are all standard practices of turntable set up. Tone
Controls are junk. They don’t get you closer to the music they get you further away.
Now there's an argument for tone controls, LOL
@@Mrsteve4761 if you're deaf