Could A Modern US Carrier Group Have Won The Battle Of Dunkirk? (WarGames 218) | DCS
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- Опубліковано 21 тра 2024
- The World War 2 battle of Dunkirk was a huge battle with nearly 70,000 casualties in just a few days. We ask if a single US Carrier Strike Group with Super Hornets could go back in time, could it win the battle for the allies?
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0:00 History
2:23 Scenario Details
4:40 Battle!
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#WarGames #GRWarGames #WWII #WorldWar2 #AircraftCarrier #Hornet #Aviation #AviationGaming #FlightSimulators #militaryhistory #DCS #DCSWORLD - Ігри
Reverse the roles! GR in WWII assets vs modern assets AI.
PRetty much this: ua-cam.com/video/aivGa2ACSCY/v-deo.html
can you imagine just what that carrier group would do to the German forces psychologically? Not even able to see what killed you, just a massive plume of smoke from the launchers, no clue how to counter, just explosions and death
The Germans knew what a missile was, they would probably figure it out pretty quick.
"Guided artillery" would probably be the best explanation in 1940 that they could conceptualize.
@@theiceman447 But not in Dunkirk Time, V1 and V2 not available at that time
@@theiceman447 The point is not just knowing what a missile is and what it can do, but if there are any countermeasures against them.
Modern missiles are obviously vastly superior to the technology of the time, there would have been no way the Germans could deal with missiles that had far superior speed and guidance systems. If modern munitions time travelled to World War II and we built so much of them and used them, there would have been no way the Germans wouldn’t have sued for peace in a matter of days, if not hours.
@@deterdettol Problem would be the Amount available. I'm reading enough Alternative History Stories like the Axis of Time Series from John Birmingham and the Problems begin when the Stockpiles run out. Modern Weapons are not easy to manifacture if you have to invent the Technology. The Tools are not there. If you out of modern Tech you must use old Tech adapt to the new.
Cap: I'll be the laughing stock of the internet if I get shot down by an 88!" Then Cap flies into the ground.
😆
Then he gets shot by an 88 shortly after and is forced to ditch the plane later because he forgot about the fuel leak
It appears I am the laughing stock of the internet.
@@grimreapers The internet doesn't forget. You inadvertently put pressure on yourself by saying that xd
In reality if a modern carrier group popped into 1940, it would be a waste of resources to spend so many advanced missiles or airframes on a battle. A high level strike on Hitler's known location, precision night strikes on manufacturing centers with destroyer launched missiles. Many officers would be taken back to the homefront for their advanced degrees and knowledge.
All resources pivot to Germany after that
I suspect the judicious use of what would be "shock and awe extreme" against the Germans around Dunkirk would put an end to the engagement since German commanders were smart guys and they'd have retreated fast once they understood the situation.
@@marcppparis hello, im god.. if i would return with it, i would won entire ww2 and cold war
aka the drone problem.
How would you deal with the battle of Britain? Depending on the date, the Germans would have a lot of materiel that could still cause civilian casualties
The real question is how many factories in the heartland of Germany can a carrier strike group destroy in a single night. Ignoring the nuclear weapons of course.
>Ignoring the nuclear weapons of course
I don't think we'd have to, since no MAD
@@raggum1052The US would never have used nuclear weapons during WWII on a enemy city…
oh wait.
US CVNs don't carry nukes. The French one does though.
@Dawnbandit1 never in their history? They were neither confirmed or denied to have carried nukes but President Clinton removed them all (if they were ever there).
@@Dawnbandit1quick fix for that 👹😈
this is a cluster bomb mission if there ever was a cluster bomb mission.
"Cluster bombs are evil!"
.
So is war.
@@kevincaruthers5412true! It's bad for the climate apparently! 😅
@@multitimmytiger2 It's balanced out by the population reduction.
War is good at reducing population.
;)
This would totally be a mission for cluster bombs
@@multitimmytiger2Whoah I’m gonna need a fact check on this 🤔🤔
50 million German cost in 1944 would be worth
£1,846,181,472.72 today
In 1944, Germany spent 75% of their GDP on military, not counting the fact that nearly 1/4 of their production came from slave labor. In comparison, the US spent 43% of their GDP on the war.
If that was today, it would be equivalent to Germany and the US spending 3.06TN and 10.94TN USD per year on military, respectively. In comparison, WORLDWIDE military spending in 2023 was 2.4TN USD, with the US making up 916BN of that.
WWII war economy was nuts. Imagine the US spending 11x what they're spending on military today.
Good thing you included the 72p.
@@paulvsmith I mean that would've been a deal breaker for me, I draw the line at 1,846,181,472.71 Euros.
That SAM launch at the beginning completely sent me for some reason. Absolutely ridiculous, but equally as entertaining.
I forget how insane it is to see the missiles on the map compared to the planes in terms of speed, just... hoo boy... modern tech is crazy.
Reallt that thing happened during a very sort period of time between 1945 and about 10 years later.
What happened since is mostly smarter tech.
@@matsv201 that's part of why the hypersonic thing talked about today is considered such a big deal
@@Chiberia Hypersonic tech has been around for a long time. Lockheed has had plans for them for decades. Problem is that after mach4/5 you get plasma forming around the missile making it impossible to guide it. It has to slow down below that speed in order to actually hit anything so it won't be traveling mach 10 for it's final approach to a target. Plus if something is going mach 10 it can't maneuver at all, it'll be going in pretty much a straight line. It's a pretty simple math problem to take it out with a missile defense system. Hell in the 80's the US shot down a satellite with an F-15 and a satellite is going a hell of a lot faster than mach 10. My guess is that's the reason the US decided to prioritize development of stealth missiles ahead of hypersonics. Hypersonics are really just a buzz word for media.
@@Chiberia i would say.. its really just a point in it if its air oxidized.
@@Chiberia not really, hypersonics are cool, but definately not the complete gamechanger of even early missile tech. Russia has been tossing what few they have out in vollies and most are being intercepted by even s-300s and the patriots which both are like 40 years old at this point.
vs, being a ship bristling with AA guns, as airplanes have been a big deal for a while now. then, out of nowhere, a "plane" going 800mph just slams into you and explodes, AA fires for the couple of seconds they can see the tiny object on the horizion, but radar cant track it, so its just visual fire. and the turret rotation is far less than the speed of the missiles. hundreds of shots ring out in the few seconds they can fire. but every one misses.
Today, even incredibly fast missiles can be spotted and tracked far before the effective range of AA systems. If the crew is good, then they can most likely still intersecpt the missile. Even if the AA missile is vastly slower than the hypersonic. hypersonics are great for a country like the US where all the fighting since ww2 has been against out of date soviet hand-me-downs, but in a near peer conflict, volume of missiles will always outtrump superweapons. A cluster missile firing like 8 warheads for the same cost as 1 stupid fast missile will possibly oversaturate air defense way easier
I think taking a modern carrier group back would do more as a targeted strike platform than a front line asset. Target surface and submarine naval bases to give allies complete control of shipping, infrastructure to stop the flow of arms, munitions, and fuel, and take out command and control to stop effective leadership. Within a few weeks the war machine would fall apart and allied forces could easily mop up the remnants.
Imagine being a German soldier fighting on Dunrkirk happening to see a metal pipe with wings thinking it’s a V1 rocket only for it to hit you
That would be impressive given that V1 wasn't deployed until 4 years after Dunkirk, the Germans hadn't even faced the Katyusha yet much less Tomahawk and Hornets
F/A-18s carrying and using Walleye TV-guided bombs is historically accurate. During the 1991 Gulf War, F/A-18s used Walleyes on multiple occasions. By the end of the Gulf War, between 124 and 130 Walleyes were used, largely with good effect. Shortly after the Gulf War, the Walleye was retired, along with the A-7 Corsair II, which was the main aircraft that used Walleyes at the time.
We used them with F/A-18's as well from the same carrier CVN-71 I was on.
"open door policy " well played😂
In my humble opinion the two most devastating abilities that a modern carrier group would have would be the information systems and the ability to operate in the middle of the night as if it were a bright sunny day. If you look at just a vectoring in WW2 assets using modern radar,LiDAR and sonar it would be a game changer. Conducting missions at night would be incredibly difficult for the axis forces to try and counter. Especially considering how easily modern aircraft could take out WW2 era radar and operate completely unseen at night.
Instead of Hornets, I wonder how A-10s would do. 🤔 And those landings at the end...truly painful to watch; the skipper and the air boss would both get canned. 😂
They would fall into the sea off the end of the carrier and the mission would therefore be quite short. If you had to fly them across the channel carrying a lot of stores, they'd be quite vulnerable to interceptions from 109s, they are really only 250 knot aircraft at low level when carrying a lot of weaponry
Probably not too hot, it's slow enough that BF109s and FW190s would be able to catch it without any of the dogfighting agility. If its speed is comparable to prop planes then that means that German AA firing solutions could lock onto it which they most likely couldn't do with supersonic fighters. Obviously, it's all pretend but A10 only thrives in undisputed airspace and would honestly probably suffer.
Though against any German tank model, the gun would shred, especially against early war tanks. Compared to nowadays where its gun is worthless against tanks.
They would fly from the British Isles and maybe refueled on route.
FW-190's are Focke-Wulf make, not Fokker. That are two completely different companies.
Think of him saying f#ckers, it wasn't about manufacturers...
When MOAB isn't enough for Simba.....he wants Nukes 😂
You'd take out the Reichstag and key factories in the first salvo. Fuel depots. Railroads. Shipping. Why bother with the tanks at all?
My grandad swam of the beach in Dunkirk to a waiting English fishing boat
He told me the story his Scots regiment had been left behind as a rear guard and we’re never expected to escape
He claimed to be one of only a few that got out at the very last minute
He later got sent to Malaya and my mother was born in Singapore
These men were made of real metal
They never got the respect they deserved
Now the laset guided small rocket from the other day would be really usefull.
Especially against to 88mms.
Okay, now I'm curious how flights of modern drones would do against the German forces.
Great Video TEAM GR! Thank You!!!
The engine howl @ 13:29 was great!
Those deck crew on the carrier were made of some kind of asbestos/unbobtanium mixture.
Unbobtainium 🤣🤣 Imagine if they had spongebobtainum, or unobtainium!
@@helmetfire5973 You gotta set Spongebobtanium to W for Wumbo, or else it doesn't work
Kudos to the viewer who came up with this idea. It's a really cool one. Great entertainment. I'm always up for some present tech vs oldies tech videos.
Im pretty sure, hypothetically speaking of course, that carrier groups have canned sunshine.
Yep. B61's
Time for Regime Change.
Go ahead and wrap up WW2 and Cold War while you're at it.
*The Final Countdown. Part II*
A Final Countdown campaign would be SOOOOOO AWESOME!!! I’d watch that every dang day.
@@jamespaladino2784 I was just thinking about this!
Persistent assets, cause as much damage as possible with those limited assets, decide what missions would be the most influential to the war, etc.
I'd love to watch that.
This battle with a modern US or UK airforce would be awesome. A10s and F15Es would be very educational
"educational"
They don't operate off carriers
"Bird" with the British Dad Jokes! Fun mission again boyz! Video Valued by Valued Viewer - Fly Army! 🚁
Times change. We, the Dutch and Germans, have a joint army corps containing German and Dutch soldiers
Even germans should never trust germans.
CBU-87/103s would have been a crowd pleaser.
40:38 the Germans had artillery that could reach across the narrower part of the channel. Although I don't think they were in place till well after Dunkirk
It's the Final Countdown, just much further West (or East depending which way you want to go)
I love the discussion/ debrief at the end.
Now replay with the UK Falkland task group :)
Alas, Simba's legendary Teflon underpants apparently are not friendly fire proof.
If you gotta be friendly-fired, SM-6 is a good way to do it.
I have to agree with Cap on the point of adaptability. This win would've been quite temporary. The Nazi's might've paused their offensive while they found a way to counter US tactics/weapons. The Allies might've taken the pause to negotiate for peace. It's more likely the Nazi's would've take this pause to employ espionage to gain intelligence on American modern defenses (knowing Hitler, he would've made that the SS' top priority) potentially reproducing them and improving on them (while discussing peace). If losing this battle meant winning the war, then the known historical outcome was the right one.
And the allies would not be gaining the same tech. Not to forget they all know what Hitler was doing and did and most likely those who came back in time would tell the allies everything if not show them what Hitler did by any media or history book on the ship The first thing I think would happen is several cruise missiles would be visiting key targets in Germany in research, development, military leadership and so on. The Allies would adopt to and history already shows Germany key weaknesses in recourses. Oh and also your forgetting the Russians and well Allies gaining the knowledge of the atomic bomb. Along with nuclear reactors on those carriers.
I’d love to see a similar battle replacing Dunkirk with The Falklands!
Seeing this scenario run using British Task Force from the Falklands War would be pretty interesting.
How about a re-run with A10s?
I appreciate that there not ship borne, but a similar scenario type thing ..
I'd love to see that too but it would look like their D-day video. It is a good one. I recommend watching it highly.
Don't forget the E boats, they could get their licks in too.
The carrier group could indeed establish a no-fly zone over Dunkirk for a few days, inflicting heavy losses on the Wehrmacht and Luftwaffe. But they could no longer win the battle (at this point). Possibly they would halt the advance briefly until the Germans adapted their tactics to the new conditions. But Hitler ordered the halt anyway, so what would be the point?
Now please do a squadron of F-35s vs 300 Spartans!
I think the limited stores for the US could potentially swing this in favor of the Germans. Unless the Hornets are extremely efficient, they might run dry before taking out all the enemies.
They wouldn't need to take out everything. Just establish air superiority and hit command and control, logistics and transportation centers. If they coordinated this with the British and French troops, the Germans wouldn't be able to put up much of a fight.
Love your battles sir. Thank you for your work. What time locally do you do these battles? You have dudes from Germany, America, Japan and the UK today? Simba must have do these battles at a crazy local time?
Was it taken into account that those BGM-103e's (the Tomahawks) needed GPS to work? Because in the 40s there was no GPS yet.
Tomahawks use INS and terrain mapping for guidance as well. Unfortunately DSMAC (terrain mapping) uses data loaded onto the missile before flight. This data comes from recon satellites, and is processed prior to loading on the missile, so it wouldn't work either.
Well maybe the satellite was brought back with the USS Gerald R Ford in the time machine
I was thinking about this too.
You expect to have so much information.
Take a trip in time, now you are so limited.
Destroy the: fuel (oil), food supply, and you have won.
i love the final countdown style videos
I'd love to see a scenario with The A-10C & F-15E while working together competing, for kills (+important kills), best ground support, and of course survival! VS Mi-24's, Strelas, Pantsirs, Tunguskas, SA-11's, and SU-25's! Plus provide ground support VS Technical Trucks, BTR's, BMP's, T-72's, and T-90's!🙏👍
WW2 Naval combat: We must associate the range, the osscilation of our ship, the wind speed and direction, and the bearing of our enemy!
Modern naval combat: *Explosive rod go boom*
Dang, very nice, Cap! How about the same Dunkirk scenario with some sexy, sexy A-10's out of Bingham Hill? Great stuff, Cap!!!!
I love it Gr and I just came up with another cool video idea. How well could a peak Cold war era Soviet Union carrier group fare in stopping operation Barbarossa, the Axis invasion of the Soviet Union during World War 2.
*Barbarossa
It was code-named after Frederick Barbarossa ("red beard").
@MaxIsStrange1 YEAH That's the name I was looking for. Thanks m8
@@jacobbeckley5292 No probs. I don’t like going “erm akychually…” but a surprising number of people just take what they read in comments sections for granted and go on to repeat the same thing elsewhere so I sometimes do correct stuff. What I mean to say is that I hope I didn’t come off as an a-hole 😅
@@MaxIsStrange1 You fine my deer boy
oof, that's a biggie!
Impressive processing from the server
Is it Curb Stop the Krauts Day already? I need to get my celebratory Fish and Chips and put on some Very Lynn.
Hello GR, I hear that the Kola Peninsula map is releasing an early access version this Friday. I am just wondering, do you know if you will be able to have access to this version? And, do you know if you will be allowed to make a video on it?
I'll only get access when we all get access.
Thanks cap
It’s been stated a few times, but run it with A-10’s. Launch however you prefer, but even with a gun only run, results should be impressive.
I would have wanted this but with 1950's attackers.
Much more interesting to see the difference from 1940's to 50's.
Final countdown, part deux? Or "battleship kirov"? I love the smell of modern-on-old combat in the morning.
There is an anime Zipang that shows how just single modern destroyer would influence ww2
Is there a policy for these situations like "don't fly directly over the frigates on takeoff during a SAM swarm" ?
The cruise missiles could have been hitting air facilities and pilot accomodation during the night. That would have killed hundreds of planes and pilots. From that point on you would have total air superiority, so the original RAF could have caused serious damage with the Carrier Group taking care of bridges, fuel and ammo depots, anti air etc. Also I think most German tanks were Panzer i and II, so even the guns would probably disable a tank.
At this point the best chance the Wehrmacht would have is probably a night attack, which would have been incredibly costly.
Additionally the CG could have opened a sector from the best around Abbeville and Amiens, to allow counter attacks. Depending on the date, the pocket would have contained also 500k belgian troups and every delay would have given the french command time to get their tanks and planes to the front.
Also the CG would have no problem to sink the whole German Navy on their Invasion trip to Norway.
Would like to see this with British carrier group, but maybe 80s
$54 million to today is $1,183,163,143. Germany still lost more than you guys in this video. Nicely done.
LMAO The first “Come to Jebus Moment” for the those that survived would then be the sonic booms. I think flying one or two passes over Berlin at low altitude with maybe a Jdam on SS headquarters for good measure and someone would be calling Churchill.
Then I can imagine his surprise as why is Hitler surrendering unconditionally and begging for the Donnervögel to stop terrorizing them. He would be properly confused. 😂
I had an idea for your Loyal Wingman! Instead of using regular AI F-16's, Please🙏 Create/use HAVE GLASS F-16's! I say this bc The Loyal Wingman, Skyborg, and finally CCA's are all planned for stealth/low observable! Please keep the cool Cockpit ;)
The idea im driving at is essentially cramming your already existing AI F-16 Wingman, F-16V, and HAVE GLASS F-16 to represent anyone of the 3 programs i mentioned😅👍
Loved the ending with the burners lit and mass ground ejections! Funny too the ground crews kept standing in the landing zone!!
This would make a really damn nice tv-show.
Carrier group goes back to this point in time, saves the troops by dunkirk and then cant go back. Their presence is used to destroy the nazies and is actually the only reason to why the wermacht doesnt win. That carrier group then spends a long time dealing with otherwise catastrophic events in history.
Read the trilogy axis of time by John Birmingham. It describes the near future scenario almost exactly like this, but the initial emphasis on the Pacific theater
@@misterrpicc1887 thanks m8! I'l do that :)
@28:52
I was just thinking the A-10 would be perfect for this.
The real question is how many planes, bunkers, führer bunkers, and factories could the carrier group destroy before they run out of munitions
I don't know when or who did a study, they concluded that AA required over 4K shell's are required to be fired to shoot down 1 aircraft... I always found that interesting... 👍👍👍
Thinking cluster in bombs or tomahawks do the best?
Next video idea: Could modern NATO force stop the 1945 Red Army onslaught. With or without US help, according to your choice. If that is too broad of a term, perhaps the Battle of Seelow heights.
23:50 Cap, would the PGU Armour Piercing rounds have been any better?
No tracers, but I assume it’s simulated in game?
Those German pilots when they saw an F-18 for the first time: “Wow! Was war das? Es ging an uns vorbei, als stünden wir still!”
That F-18 looks pretty flipping sexy in Royal Navy colours
Where do you go and send war game suggestions for GR?
I don't know if it's been done yet, but what about a modern day version of the start of the 6 Day day War??
Great show boys, my Beer and I enjoyed it.
Canadian 🇨🇦 Vet
Thanks!
the radars of that flotilla alone would've dramatically changed the outcome of the war. imagine how the tide of the battle of Brittan would've changed if you had an hour warning before every air raid, giving the RAF time to form up, giving them exact positions of the german bombers and fighters at any time. to say nothing of the difference in crypto and deciphering gear that they would bring to the table. they'd put Turing, Welchman, and the rest of Bletchley park out of a job in a matter of minutes.
Listening to Dan carlin's stuff he was talking about how 1915 took 100 years budget from England. War is expensive.
Imagine if Hitler didn't show mercy....
Ouch
Yup, or the French didn’t defend and provide the British time to evacuate
Are those cruise missiles guided by the not yet invented GPS?
Of course not. If the German Army hadn't held back, Dunkirk would have been a massacre, not a heroic evacuation story.
Great example of this style of alt history is the novel weapons of choice by John Birmingham. Sometimes free on audible and the author released a free pdf of it a number of years back. Well researched and full of explody goodness. Misses out on Dunkirk though.
You need to count the USN supply ships and the drop of German morale.
If ever there was a time to pull out the cluster bombs😂
dont forget there were a lot of french and belgian soldiers fighting, it was never just the BEF
The French fought? 😂
The French had soldiers?
@@Bob6800a The gemans were so scared of the french military they went around them instead of fighting them.
@@svensvensson2724 yeah I just thought they all got boarded up at the Maginot line
They were not included as the server would crash.
Imagine you look off to your port side and see a trail of smoke going toward your buddy and all of a sudden they become a fireball, I’d shit my pants and bail.
27:09 the AI understood the assignment, lol
Probably would've been a wise decision to use the precision munitions on the factories.
Also, having the air superiority would have made a significant difference overall.
Even just high altitude BVR would be pretty effective. Warbirds don't climb past angels 40 quickly.
I kind of doubt modern weapons would actually be that much of Shock and Awe as we might think. Sure the native would go "what the jolly heck was that?", but then they would target and shoot them down just like any other flying/floating machines.
If anything, modern machines are less armored than ww2 stuff was, and more vulnerable to damage. ( a bit harder to hit, but not impossible to hit.)
Sure a modern carrier group would surely make an impression. But that like 8? ships and a 40 or so jets. Impressive as that might be to anyone watching, it sort of pales in comparison of the bomber armadas they used to bomb Germany with. Hundreds of bombers and hundreds of fighters flying in formations.
The damage a carrier group could do, doesn't really compare to the damage the entire war was doing.
The psychological factor assumes the enemy knows what modern jets can do. Something the Allies would have kept secret as much as possible. Surgical strikes was not really a thing back then, so I think even the allies would think of laser guided strikes as nothing more than a fancy dive bomber. (possibly a tad more accurate)
If we consider that from the start of the war, when most armies still was using WW1 gear,,, biplanes and balloons,,,and how much things developed to the end of the war with jet powered planes and even guided rockets. I'm not so sure a carrier group would be all that sci-fi-impressive as we might think. I think most people back then was already awed by how much technology advanced back then. sure they would be impressed, but I think you'd have to explain why modern systems are so much better, to someone who can actually understand what you are saying. Knowing how a radar works is something only a few knew back then.
Also you have to remember that in 1944 London was getting hit by the world's first hypersonic semi-ballistic missile (V-2). This shocked us for 3 days, then we were like "ok let's carry on".
@@grimreapers Yes , exactly. There was so much new awesome tech ,, I mean awful tech,, that I don't think it would have a huge impression. . . . I mean, time travel,, yeah,, That would have raised some interest for sure, but I don't think the machines as such would have made ,,, well ok , I'll give future tech one thing, come to think of it. The ability to create sonic booms would probably have been the most amazing thing about the hornets. (besides the time travel that is.)
And then it all went nuclear at the end there, what a ride. from biplanes to nukes.
Yes.
.
Next Question?
There are some modern day vs. WW II scenarios that I find interesting. I don't know if you've done them or not but two that come to mind are a squadron of A-10s vs Rommel's Panzer Corps in Africa or a squadron of B-52Ds with the conventional bomb racks against German factories or military bases. I wonder how long that the Reich could have held out before crying "no mas!"
If you were facing lots of enemies, you could break out the clusters, thermobarics, and phosphorus. It's not a war crime the first time. 🙃
Do you have anti-artillery radars? Could you pick up the source of the shells in some way?
In real life YES in game NO
A single US Carrier could have won Dunkirk, no group necessary. Perhaps a supply ship, that's it.
Also would love to see you experiment to see which ww2 plane would be the best at bringing down modern drones.........
Just recorded that vid.
@@grimreapers looking forward to it
Does the CSG include an attack sub?