The big Problem of SC and its Economy is the Insurance System. Why? 1. As long as you have insurance you cant lose ships. If that is the case clanwars will be pointles. Since there is no buildup or risk attacking another clan and fighting for access over a system if you can just pay a small fee and get your ships back. 2. Ships are basically made of credits. Ships just cost money and time to make with insurance. If this system is kept resources all the way from minerals up to complex items like microchips and whatnot will have ZERO meaning. Just like it is right now. That means trading is just a farce. Instead of looking at the market and seeing where you could place yourself to make profit by fixing a peticular supply issue. You just basically look for the resource that has the best margin and transport it from place A where its spawned out of the blue to place B where it just disapears. No one transports distilled spirits or iron in SC because its pointless. 3. What does that lead to? Total death by boredom of the game. First the PvE Players will leave the game. Because eventually they will realize that their actions have zero influence in the game. Then they will notice they get pirated on the dangerous routes and so will completly avoid them because there will be no point in doing that since the prices will be fixed without a real market with supply and demand. After the PvE players are gone the PvP pirates will go because they have no one to rob. Last will be the competitive PvP Players seeing at some point that they are living in an empty universe only meeting up to fight in a game whicg flight system isnt even tailored to them with the simplification of master mode. The Economy is everything in SC. Without it this game will be one of the biggest desasters in gaming history. Get rid of insurances
You don't have to get rid of insurance, you can just have longer wait times on claims with UEC premiums and extra wait times every time your ship is destroyed. Also, it's pretty easy to avoid pirates.
@@loadingerror9975 Absolutely, there may be a lot of crying and gnashing of teeth but I don't think it will be enough to make people quit especially if there are things you can do without one and passenger flights. I wish I could make an account without having to purchase a ship.
issue with sniperglint: it is brighter than vehicle headlights or the flashlight on the helmet or gun. there is a mechanic to find a sniper. it's called a scout ship or APC for cover. add thermal or just a nightvision camera for now. done. games do this already. also if the issue now is "there is nothing you can do about it!" - are they removing torpedobombs now that can kill you down inside a bunker? yeah didn't think so.
the reason everyone swoons over rich is he's able to make statements where everyone below him has to make sure they don't contradict rich's/chris's statements so they have to be very "diplomatic" and "soft" in their language. you can see that after Rich makes his economy statement JJ goes more detailed and hard. there's a lot of reading between the lines "reading tea leaves" with the people who aren't director VP/Pres. level. Astropub has some real good critiques of all the backers who've got more than 18 months in the game because its clear, from content creators to spectrum weebs that long term "players" are not prepared for where SC is gonna go and there will be a lot of attrition. at the end of the day anyone hardcore about SC for more than 24 months is gonna have their world rocked. Having done a lot of alpha MMOs and seeing the attrition, myself included from alpha to 1.0 is massive. alpha players are NOT the audience to court or keep happy as, especially in SC's case the backers are too old and their money is already spent. SC needs to court college and pre-child players as their core player base and everyone; 10,000 hours in SC alpha sweatlords to AMEX black card whales are the minority and their feedback is becomming less and less valuable as new players and streamers like Summ1t are where the money to fund the game is. Avenger__One, Vergil, SaltEmike et al are of diminishing returns in criticism for 3 reasons: 1) not enough ability or content to compare/contrast SC to other MMOs from Froxhole to Elite or even more "hardcore" games like Darkfall 1/2 Mortal Online 1/2 or pure theme parks like ESO. 2) presuming SC "isn't" like other games. It is not like other games now; as SaltEMike has said "Star Citizen is a tech demo" and he's right. and that's the problem with alpha players: they're in it for the tech demo and the MMO-ness isn't the goal. EvE online the most compared (and should only be compared at how EvE handles ultra hardcore pvp that goes out of game and orginzation tools) is of limited use and therefore criticisms using eve are like trying to color something purple with a red crayon. you might get it done but you're forcing a lot of things. 3) forgetting that ALL the "economy" bullshit, mastermodes etc. are the wrong thing to talk about. Star citizen without in-game player orginzational tools will fail within 36 months. ALL MMOS have proved this since Everquest 1. A lot of people love to go back and quote EvE 20 years later. let's go back to Eve 2001, 2007, 2017, etc. EvE has been a shitty boring game and survives and grows on ONE reason alone, its player-player interaction and organization. From Hi-sec only carebears to the logistics nuts who move 10 years worth of playtime in their freighters to support a war; the huge mining orgs that sit there watching movies over discord -- eve as a game sucks donkey dick ( i even went to island for fanfest because i was playng 6hrs a day 6 days a week and leading nullsec fleets and part of nullsec wars -- i bought 3 monitors just to have the out of game tools i needed for empire level warfare/pvp. we want to talk EvE we need to dig into the org tools they use because EvE is a boring game and only fun because of it being a massivly-multiplayer game. Star Citizen is "massive" in 1996 terms, hell Ultima Online put 1000 players on a shard. SC is and all criticisms of the "game" are criticisms of a tech demo and come from a place that SC "isn't like other games". sure it aint Warzone or Planetside 2 (a better MMO than SC with its flaws) because SC has yet to show it's "gameness". it has minigames within in it that people like; but SC's backers are too sunk cost fallacy and dont compare it on what it needs to -- is SC an MMO or just a robust single player game. Tony Z and Quantum are for a game closer to Elite Dangerous where players are both on/offline and pvp is a switch to turn on. SC has shifted its focus from Elite Dangerous+ to closer to Planetside 2 in space. It is not FPS EvE Online because it does not have the org tools or the massively multiplayer part. too many backers and content creators are still theory crafting SC as Elite Dangerous without offline and a tighter player bubble to force interactions: it will be closer to foxhole/ Planetside 2 with a lot more structure and guidance + dog fights
A lot to unpack there and I'm not a big fan of walls of text but I'll give it a go. 1. I think players that have been around for a long time have experience that should definitely continue to be listened to, how are you able to know what other MMOs they are playing? 2. I get the feeling that old players are eagerly awaiting SC to not be a tech demo so I don't think that's a thing. 3. SC needs a lot a of things to become a game, economy, org tools, base building and much more. I do agree that EVE is a pretty boring game when it comes down to it, so at least we can agree on that.
Ha. Just a reply to a portion of your statement. CIG does not give a flying fk about OG backers. Like you mentioned- they already have their money. CIG is after new markets and new money. It’s curious to me why a large number of OG backers think CIG is their friend. CIG is out to make money and only that. At one point in the distant past it CR may have been interested in the project, but those days are long passed.
8:28 - I agree frustrating on every level. I also think you missed his comment that vehicles should be priced based on how much you can make from it "like in real life". Did you hear that Honda is raising the price of Civics because they are make money for Uber drivers? This first part made me really worry about their direction. Glad that Rich saved it. For sniper glint, my opinion is that snipers dont have a proper check, like, if FPS armor make s a difference in FPS scanning, why not let snipers show up in ground scans with ships....like give a Hornet tracker a reason to search the battlefield. This part frustrated me as it sounded like their balancing is stuck in a CoD box of thinking. 123
Yeah, we definitely need a better claim timer and insurance systems but that is also dependent on the game running without much instability. It's no good have more realistic systems if it's just adding to the frustration of the game not running well. I don't think we will have really meaningful changes to the economy and especially player driven economy until crafting, base building and a more diverse fluctuating market is a thing. I definitely agree that they need to test the not so good MM flight model in the PU before they can dial it in.
it wouldnt be wild for me to think these high tech helmets couldnt have some sort of camera or sensor to detect scopes that could be piped into an AR indicator, the only problem i have with the glint is the visual in low light. they can tune how visible it is and if they cop out with helmet sensors or something they can even tune detection times based on quality of the helmet vs quality of the scope. maybe a pog idea i'm not sure, it is the far future we can dream up any tech we want when warp drives are on the table.
The economy “rebalance” is just to sell more ships for the next sale. No crafting means it all happens again once that is in as each material becomes a currency- which will rebalance.
Give us inconvenience once there is a game there worth grinding. Gameloops with enough meat to them that the grind doesnt feel like pulling teeth. We lose the will to play the game once we make the millions because its not a game worth playing for anything besides enough money to prep for org events
Really doesn't make me feel better knowing they've been "working" on MM's for a decade because after that long, this is what we've been given. I'm not sorry either because there appears to me, to be some obvious issues. So to have been "working so hard" on this just seems like a slap in the face. I know I know, "this is just the first iteration" "there will be adjustments".. we are re imagining the flight model 12 years into development. I'm looking to upgrade my rig for this game and I am reconsidering seeing as, my current rig runs all other games I play, just fine. I'd hate to re download on a spicy new rig only to find my favorite game blows. Starting to feel like a lot of this is to hide the fact they can't get the game to work. Feeling a bit like I might have to walk away for a while. Idk what kind of bubble CIG is living in but I've never felt so disconnected.
Rich is going to save us
Yeah, he seems to have his head screwed on right.
The big Problem of SC and its Economy is the Insurance System. Why?
1. As long as you have insurance you cant lose ships. If that is the case clanwars will be pointles. Since there is no buildup or risk attacking another clan and fighting for access over a system if you can just pay a small fee and get your ships back.
2. Ships are basically made of credits. Ships just cost money and time to make with insurance. If this system is kept resources all the way from minerals up to complex items like microchips and whatnot will have ZERO meaning. Just like it is right now. That means trading is just a farce. Instead of looking at the market and seeing where you could place yourself to make profit by fixing a peticular supply issue. You just basically look for the resource that has the best margin and transport it from place A where its spawned out of the blue to place B where it just disapears. No one transports distilled spirits or iron in SC because its pointless.
3. What does that lead to? Total death by boredom of the game. First the PvE Players will leave the game. Because eventually they will realize that their actions have zero influence in the game. Then they will notice they get pirated on the dangerous routes and so will completly avoid them because there will be no point in doing that since the prices will be fixed without a real market with supply and demand. After the PvE players are gone the PvP pirates will go because they have no one to rob. Last will be the competitive PvP Players seeing at some point that they are living in an empty universe only meeting up to fight in a game whicg flight system isnt even tailored to them with the simplification of master mode.
The Economy is everything in SC. Without it this game will be one of the biggest desasters in gaming history. Get rid of insurances
You don't have to get rid of insurance, you can just have longer wait times on claims with UEC premiums and extra wait times every time your ship is destroyed. Also, it's pretty easy to avoid pirates.
@@tibitzu365 i agree. take tarkov's insurace system... make it take a day for even the small ships and like 4 days for something like a c2
@@loadingerror9975 Absolutely, there may be a lot of crying and gnashing of teeth but I don't think it will be enough to make people quit especially if there are things you can do without one and passenger flights. I wish I could make an account without having to purchase a ship.
issue with sniperglint:
it is brighter than vehicle headlights or the flashlight on the helmet or gun.
there is a mechanic to find a sniper. it's called a scout ship or APC for cover. add thermal or just a nightvision camera for now. done. games do this already.
also if the issue now is "there is nothing you can do about it!" - are they removing torpedobombs now that can kill you down inside a bunker? yeah didn't think so.
Was a good SCL, hope you get Rich on a podcast now that would be a great discussion.
Live: twitch.tv/ver9jl // Join ver9JL discord for more content: discord.gg/vzABq6AUVd // Join the Shadow Moses (SC Organization) discord: discord.gg/shadowmoses
the reason everyone swoons over rich is he's able to make statements where everyone below him has to make sure they don't contradict rich's/chris's statements so they have to be very "diplomatic" and "soft" in their language. you can see that after Rich makes his economy statement JJ goes more detailed and hard. there's a lot of reading between the lines "reading tea leaves" with the people who aren't director VP/Pres. level. Astropub has some real good critiques of all the backers who've got more than 18 months in the game because its clear, from content creators to spectrum weebs that long term "players" are not prepared for where SC is gonna go and there will be a lot of attrition. at the end of the day anyone hardcore about SC for more than 24 months is gonna have their world rocked.
Having done a lot of alpha MMOs and seeing the attrition, myself included from alpha to 1.0 is massive. alpha players are NOT the audience to court or keep happy as, especially in SC's case the backers are too old and their money is already spent. SC needs to court college and pre-child players as their core player base and everyone; 10,000 hours in SC alpha sweatlords to AMEX black card whales are the minority and their feedback is becomming less and less valuable as new players and streamers like Summ1t are where the money to fund the game is. Avenger__One, Vergil, SaltEmike et al are of diminishing returns in criticism for 3 reasons:
1) not enough ability or content to compare/contrast SC to other MMOs from Froxhole to Elite or even more "hardcore" games like Darkfall 1/2 Mortal Online 1/2 or pure theme parks like ESO.
2) presuming SC "isn't" like other games. It is not like other games now; as SaltEMike has said "Star Citizen is a tech demo" and he's right. and that's the problem with alpha players: they're in it for the tech demo and the MMO-ness isn't the goal. EvE online the most compared (and should only be compared at how EvE handles ultra hardcore pvp that goes out of game and orginzation tools) is of limited use and therefore criticisms using eve are like trying to color something purple with a red crayon. you might get it done but you're forcing a lot of things.
3) forgetting that ALL the "economy" bullshit, mastermodes etc. are the wrong thing to talk about. Star citizen without in-game player orginzational tools will fail within 36 months. ALL MMOS have proved this since Everquest 1. A lot of people love to go back and quote EvE 20 years later. let's go back to Eve 2001, 2007, 2017, etc. EvE has been a shitty boring game and survives and grows on ONE reason alone, its player-player interaction and organization. From Hi-sec only carebears to the logistics nuts who move 10 years worth of playtime in their freighters to support a war; the huge mining orgs that sit there watching movies over discord -- eve as a game sucks donkey dick ( i even went to island for fanfest because i was playng 6hrs a day 6 days a week and leading nullsec fleets and part of nullsec wars -- i bought 3 monitors just to have the out of game tools i needed for empire level warfare/pvp.
we want to talk EvE we need to dig into the org tools they use because EvE is a boring game and only fun because of it being a massivly-multiplayer game. Star Citizen is "massive" in 1996 terms, hell Ultima Online put 1000 players on a shard. SC is and all criticisms of the "game" are criticisms of a tech demo and come from a place that SC "isn't like other games". sure it aint Warzone or Planetside 2 (a better MMO than SC with its flaws) because SC has yet to show it's "gameness". it has minigames within in it that people like; but SC's backers are too sunk cost fallacy and dont compare it on what it needs to -- is SC an MMO or just a robust single player game. Tony Z and Quantum are for a game closer to Elite Dangerous where players are both on/offline and pvp is a switch to turn on.
SC has shifted its focus from Elite Dangerous+ to closer to Planetside 2 in space. It is not FPS EvE Online because it does not have the org tools or the massively multiplayer part. too many backers and content creators are still theory crafting SC as Elite Dangerous without offline and a tighter player bubble to force interactions: it will be closer to foxhole/ Planetside 2 with a lot more structure and guidance + dog fights
A lot to unpack there and I'm not a big fan of walls of text but I'll give it a go. 1. I think players that have been around for a long time have experience that should definitely continue to be listened to, how are you able to know what other MMOs they are playing? 2. I get the feeling that old players are eagerly awaiting SC to not be a tech demo so I don't think that's a thing. 3. SC needs a lot a of things to become a game, economy, org tools, base building and much more. I do agree that EVE is a pretty boring game when it comes down to it, so at least we can agree on that.
Ha. Just a reply to a portion of your statement. CIG does not give a flying fk about OG backers. Like you mentioned- they already have their money. CIG is after new markets and new money. It’s curious to me why a large number of OG backers think CIG is their friend. CIG is out to make money and only that. At one point in the distant past it CR may have been interested in the project, but those days are long passed.
@@Jeremy_Walker I don't think you're right but your can have your opinion.
8:28 - I agree frustrating on every level. I also think you missed his comment that vehicles should be priced based on how much you can make from it "like in real life". Did you hear that Honda is raising the price of Civics because they are make money for Uber drivers?
This first part made me really worry about their direction. Glad that Rich saved it.
For sniper glint, my opinion is that snipers dont have a proper check, like, if FPS armor make s a difference in FPS scanning, why not let snipers show up in ground scans with ships....like give a Hornet tracker a reason to search the battlefield. This part frustrated me as it sounded like their balancing is stuck in a CoD box of thinking.
123
In Rich we trust!
Yeah, we definitely need a better claim timer and insurance systems but that is also dependent on the game running without much instability. It's no good have more realistic systems if it's just adding to the frustration of the game not running well. I don't think we will have really meaningful changes to the economy and especially player driven economy until crafting, base building and a more diverse fluctuating market is a thing. I definitely agree that they need to test the not so good MM flight model in the PU before they can dial it in.
It was a great SCL, 1000 times better than the letter from the chairman we recently got. 123
it wouldnt be wild for me to think these high tech helmets couldnt have some sort of camera or sensor to detect scopes that could be piped into an AR indicator, the only problem i have with the glint is the visual in low light. they can tune how visible it is and if they cop out with helmet sensors or something they can even tune detection times based on quality of the helmet vs quality of the scope. maybe a pog idea i'm not sure, it is the far future we can dream up any tech we want when warp drives are on the table.
The economy “rebalance” is just to sell more ships for the next sale. No crafting means it all happens again once that is in as each material becomes a currency- which will rebalance.
SC has no economy. It’s literally just buying static shit from NPCs.
Give us inconvenience once there is a game there worth grinding. Gameloops with enough meat to them that the grind doesnt feel like pulling teeth.
We lose the will to play the game once we make the millions because its not a game worth playing for anything besides enough money to prep for org events
and something to work towards
Hey Virg!!
Really doesn't make me feel better knowing they've been "working" on MM's for a decade because after that long, this is what we've been given. I'm not sorry either because there appears to me, to be some obvious issues. So to have been "working so hard" on this just seems like a slap in the face. I know I know, "this is just the first iteration" "there will be adjustments".. we are re imagining the flight model 12 years into development. I'm looking to upgrade my rig for this game and I am reconsidering seeing as, my current rig runs all other games I play, just fine. I'd hate to re download on a spicy new rig only to find my favorite game blows. Starting to feel like a lot of this is to hide the fact they can't get the game to work. Feeling a bit like I might have to walk away for a while. Idk what kind of bubble CIG is living in but I've never felt so disconnected.
123 GIGACHAD RICH
LOL yesss
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123 o7
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