Vaush Debate LOOPS And Goes Completely Off The Rails
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- Опубліковано 19 лип 2024
- Vaush debates Ahrelevant and it goes completely off the rails. They talk Hasan, socialism, living your principals and more...
Date: 16 Oct, 2021
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0:00 - Teasers/Intro
1:17 - Ahrelevant reflects on the debate
1:45 - Vaush debates Ahrelevant
3:18:34 - Ahrelevant talks to Destiny
#Destiny
I wasn't going to upload this debate review because it starts off slow and Destiny even AFKed. But as things went on, it got spicier and there were a lot of good memes.
Also chose not to edit out portions like Destiny's debates so all the context is there.
Ahrelevant ►www.twitch.tv/ahrelevant ►ua-cam.com/channels/sj_gOOEmCb73tgbjnUdUkg.html
Destiny is so obsessed with Vaush. Vaush have dumped him yet he covers all his debates for views.
@@johnjoseph1426 vaush has intelectually outpaced everyone so so much that he became plural
@@pepe2493 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
@@pepe2493 lolol. That made me laugh. Love it.
@@johnjoseph1426 vury intellect commint
Vegan: "Hey guys you shouldn't eat meat" **takes a bite of a steak**
Us: "Hey I thought you said we shouldn't eat meat?"
Vegan: "Well that's hypocritical to single me out when you did't say anything about those non-vegans eating meat!"
Wait are you trying to make a hypocritcal argument because it doesn't matter if you call out the hypocrisy of these actions. In modern day do you know how difficult it would be for a vegan to be expected to stick to a vegan diet? Not to mention that fundamentally my actions of promoting veganism is providing the exact same net good regardless of if I personcally consume meat or not. Now it would be better if I didn't eat meat and for that you could say my actions are bit dull however the moral prescribing of my actions of eating meat are not more valid simply because my ideology is of a different nature. Vegans should bot be expected to not eat meat simply because or ideology morally loads the action. This is not pragmatic in the fight for power. Non vegans have been eating meat for centuries they don't care if an individuak eats meat or not and that is why they have been winning. We cannot expect different from our fellow vegan as we will never win if we do. Simply promoting veganism is enough and if you choose to eat meat that is a personally decision that we should try to softly convince you out of but should never be expected of anyone nor should they be judged for it otherwise they might choose to not be vegan.
@@moonie1825 Why should/would I follow or even listen to your advice, when you personally don't even make an effort to follow your own guidelines!?
@@enlightenednormie242 whooooosh
@@Nihil847 Its a pro gamer move. Criticize the rich while being rich yourself.
@@Nihil847 No no man. The rich who proclaim to be socialist cannot criticize others for being rich. Being a socialist automatically puts you on the moral high horse being a champion for the oppressed working class. So enriching yourself and buying a 3 million dollar mansion, while not lifting a finger for your causes then you are a piece of garbage hypocrite.
Vaush’s overconfidence whenever he’s about to make an incredibly stupid point will never not be funny
He needs to remind himself that overconfidence is a slow and insidious killer
@@Green-tf8uw that’s an astoundingly salient point
@@Green-tf8uw unironically
He feels even better when he uses big boy words like "salient".
“your overconfidence is your weakness”
Dang Vausch is outpacing himself intellectually.
Vowsh*
Maybe he thinks he will be rich like Hasan so he wants to keep his options open haha
@@Imperial_Squid underrated
@@3331Alex Well he IS a good capitalist.
by vaush's own logic "the only people criticizing socialists aren't socialists so why should we care?" then a conservative should never, ever under any circumstance consider a democrat, liberal or socialists criticisms? Through this worldview for Vaush to even get close to any change he wants to see he'd have to have full control over the government, and never cede ANY of that power because there is no room for compromise or criticism. I think it is pretty cringe to call individual people "fascists", but if ever the term applied to someone's ideology....
Oh my god this is annoying. "Why should a socialist be held to a higher standard?" IT'S NOT A HIGHER STANDARD IT'S YOUR STANDARD.
wHy sHoUlD a sOCiAlisT bE cRitIcIseD foR reVeLliNg iN pRivAtE pRopErTy aNd dEcAdEnCe?
Centrists and righties shaming leftists into holding their own standard doesn't work exactly *because* other leftists with the same standards refuse to criticize their peers. By giving them a safe harbor, they shut down the ability of their own movement to enforce minimal, sane bottom lines, let alone the ability of people outside their movement to do the same.
Ironically, Vaush would probably benefit from enforcing those very modest standards, because he meets them and Hasan doesn't, and acknowledging Hasan's failings would drive Hasan's leftist audience towards people who don't have those same failings.
Criticism would drive Hasan's audience towards more morally consistent leftists unless the audience don't really believe in their alleged values. It would be reasonable for Vaush to throw up a smokescreen and try to protect Hasan from criticism if he thought it was all a big LARP and there'd be a net negative to his clout farm if people got fed up with the whole community due to having to conform to real standards and values. It's almost like you can claim to be anything or believe anything until your own dollar bills and personal comfort are at stake.
That's crazy talk, though, I'm sure it's just that Vaush feels very strongly about Hasan's right to be immoral and lazy while he's hording donos that could have gone to activism/charity for yachts.
Socialists don't believe that chairity is the answer though, socialists believe that resistribution of wealth should occur though the legal system.
It's not hypocricy, because chairity is what you are saying they should do, and that's not what socialists are advocating for.
@@tianamaycry There's a slash there for a reason, homie.
Even if Hasan for some reason doesn't believe in charity (which is actively an actively anti-worker position for the bourgeoisie to hold but whatever) he could also sink his massive excess wealth into activism and campaign funding to encourage wealth redistribution through the legal system, and encourage other e-riche to do the same.
In reality Hasan doesn't believe in change at all, it's today's brand of designer coat, and Vaush doesn't believe there are enough other people who actually believe in change to outweigh the crowd who are just following Hasan for the aesthetics.
@@Bingo_Bango_ Yeah, but he doesn't advocate that people throw money at those things as part of his political philosophy, you can call it shitty, but hypocricy it is not.
Vaush's argument essentially boils down to "I just want Hassan and I to get paid extremely well for Communist lip service. Please stop pointing out the grift."
"I want socialists from Beverly Hills to Monaco" --Vaush
Vaushes only position is: I want to leech viewers from Hasan to increase my own personal wealth.
This
I love it that Vaush can say with a straight face "my moral system doesn't have an answer to that" and just go on with his life as if that's supposed to happen.
To be super charitable, utilitarianism doesn't really talk in terms of supererogatory actions and that is okay. But the reason why it's fine is because you're always obligated to do the thing that brings about the most utility. nothing is supererogatory because everything is obligatory. I don't know how Vaush got from that to "we should never condemn anyone for anything."
@@kelseymaypole7048 You're exactly right. Vaush was correct when he said that classical utilitarianism can't distinguish between superogatory and obligatory actions, but as you said, that's because you are always obligated to maxmize utility because that's what it means to be a utilitarian in the classical sense. In fact, there is a common criticism directed at utilitarianism due to this fact, which is called the "demandingness objection" -- and it's exactly what it sounds like: a belief that utilitarianism is not feasible because it is too demanding as an ethical framework.
Now, if he agrees with the demandingess objection because he thinks that there are genuinely superagatory actions that are good, but not necessary, that's fine. However, he should realize that this is a criticism of utiliarianism and, thus, is a reason to not be a utilitarian.
So maybe Vaush really isn't a utilitarian after all.
@@trevorhill1688 True! I think you can pretty easily respond to that criticism by saying "tough shit. morality is hard" lmao. Not that I'm a utilitarian.
I think the way out for Vaush would just be to bite the bullet and say Hasan is obligated to do it. _But_ that we shouldn't be so harsh on him because that's just going to make him defensive. It seems like this is kinda what he wants to say anyway-- he spends a lot of time saying we should be more encouraging. I think he's just confused about what utilitarians think about obligations. tbh I don't think he's really thought it through
@@kelseymaypole7048 Yeah, I agree.
I mean, honestly, he said that utilitarianism is when you do good things and don't do bad things. If that isn't an indicator that he hasn't explored his ethical beliefs, then I don't know what is.
Maybe I'm being too uncharitable, but that is very simple understanding of not just that particular moral theory, but of any possible moral theory.
@@trevorhill1688 So is the running joke that people just use big words? Cause I see this a lot and as much as I want to laugh I'm a bit concerned. Like maybe I walked into a room where everyone is trying to sound more intelligent than the next person. I tend to follow advice given by Einstein.
You heard it here first folks, any critiscisms of Elon Musk are now null and void. If you didnt know, he's unironically announced he's a socialist on twitter...... Now that he's on our team, we've gotta change the convo to "he is just participating in society", and "you can be a socialist and the richest man in the world, theres no contradiction".....
Bad faith Brian
So if you advocate for socialism to replace the current system and/or socialist government policies At what income would you be a "hypocrite" $1b,$1m or just $1 dollar? I'm genuinely curious.
I hear this "hypocrite" leveled an at anyone who advocates for higher taxes on the rich as soon if they have money as well mostly not socialists .
@@Demo5 at whichever income you earned through unpaid labor.
@@Demo5 at the time when you exploit workers to get your money, which these streamers dont do. If they opened up a company started renting houses en masse or some shit like that I would agree but he literally just bought a house... like do people think socialists have to be poor or something??
@@matthias6933 he can but how is hasan doing that thats the question?
I originally liked Vaush but after he's gotten success he's turned into a borderline insufferable egomaniac.
have you also noticed that he started being wrong more often and the quality of his content has fallen dramatically since he got "big"? Or has it always been that way and I just didn't notice at first because I had a bias? I'll never know lmao
@@yoboi267 @Yo Boi yes, I think it has to do with how quickly he got an insane amount of subs. It's hard to think that much instant success wouldn't drastically effect anyone. He's also been rewarded for dishonesty and virtue signaling. The first time I was like "holy shit wtf, I can't believe he's actually saying this" was the Rittenhouse debate with Destiny. It was clear he was being blatantly dishonest and had adapted a "win at all costs" ethos. Earlier his positions were amendable, now he acts like the authoritative source for truth and knowledge. The debate where he claimed "there is no truth, truth is only power" just seemed like more proof that he stopped giving a shit about the substance of the things he says and is more concerned with how it's received. His chat just keeps gassing him up to the point he's saying things like "I've intellectually outpaced Destiny", even if it's true what kind of egomaniacal dbag actually says things like that?
@@yoboi267 Always been that way. Destiny was right about Vaush from the start.
@@yoboi267 He's always been that way and you just didn't notice, go back and watch some old Destiny clips from when he was calling himself Irishladdie, he was just as arrogant and moronic, finally people are starting to realize.
He was always a pompous pampered blowhard with soft hands and a smooth brain.
the new dono voice had me FUMING, I thought he was just jumping into the discord channel and just SPEAKING OVER the video every few minutes and destiny would not even pause while he's speaking
hi mr sink
Bunny hop your way into another channel?
Yeah, and even when you know it's a dono, It's just too annoying and loud abyway
Same! I thought Mouton was engaging in a new troll method
It should have been "WHY DID YOU CALL ME PRINCES-" smh
Vaush is like "Hasan might be a slave owner but he contributes a net positive for the space for arguing against slavery. Now it would be ideal if he got rid of his slaves but I want everybody to get rid of their slaves and I think it's a double standard to point out Hasan's position of owning slaves when you've got slave owners that exist that don't hold to the belief of freeing them. I don't see you getting angry when they're not consciously buying more slaves. We live in a current system where it is necessary to have slaves in order to survive and I would like to see the state address and change that. Why aren't you upset at those of us slave owners who advocate the change of the system but can't live in the necessary system without slaves? Are we hypocritical and deserving of condemnation? We could stand to let go of one or two of our slaves. If not, where is the arbitrary line where you can start to live those ideals. To be fair to Hasan, Georgia is a very slave demanding state to live in."
For any vuash hasan Stan imbecile who reads this and thinks it's such a hyperbolic example. It is so as to prove a point. If you argue against a thing, and jeep doing said thing, but are called a moral hero only for preaching about said thing. Then everyone should just only preach, as in everyone, and as long as they just preach its all good.
Vaush is basically saying(whether he knows or not) his ideal world would be attained if every single person in America just said they were a socialist, talked about socialist rhetoric, but kept doing exactly what they they are doing now.
*chef's kiss*
Yup
@@jertdw3646 it's not even that extreme since socialists believe wage cucks are basically enslaved to the system.
I feel like it's an apt comparison rather than outright hyperbolic as slavery is an economic system based off exploitation of a worker force. Vaush isn't understanding the concept of holding people to their different standards and feigns confusion as to why non-socialists would call out the actions of someone whose putting the message out there of socialist actions. He undermines Ahrelevant by claiming that neither of the two of them will have an impact on Hasan (disregard the net power and reach both do have as do larger figures speaking out against Hasan and potentially affecting his audience) and that if it does, his unchallenging of socialists living exploitative and luxurious lifestyles is what's going to be a more positive move for the left (in large part because he can't stand the notion of conceding any ground to the right).
The frustration exists because Hasan postures on his beliefs and has the opportunity to enact the change he wants to see. And I want to see him make that positive change. Unlike Ahrelevant I don't think something like donating to a charity or fundraiser is enough. That's more of a collective action which while helpful, doesn't fall in line with socialist principles or change your living conditions radically.
I want skin in the game. If our current capitalist system has uplifted your life so much, and you think you can do better, then put your money where your mouth is. Pay your editors, pay fans whose work you bought off of twitterbots stealing their art instead of "free exposure" and if you're too dumb to know how best to invest your money in the community around you, delegate to somebody who can make that socialist difference. Because if you're somebody in a position of luxury like that, and even you feel like you have no power to change the system or try to enact any level of real change, then why the hell should anybody listen to anything you have to say?
Contrapoints had a pretty insightful take she said that the real clever thing about capitalism is it pacifies what would otherwise be it's most effective detractors.
Vaush just wants to say he isn't a hypocrite when he buys that mansion hes been eyeballing on zillow.
@Yussop op just not in west Hollywood. I'm pretty sure he could afford payments on one in MN though.
People say they care about climate change but they use modern technology really makes you think 🤔
@@Demo5 good one bro, yeah if someone who said they cared about the climate burned down a forest, it just makes you think maybe they don’t. If someone made a career advocating for veganism and saying meat consumption is unethical, if they get caught doing it kinda makes you think they only advocate to the extinct that it makes them money.
@@Demo5 Yeah when someone shits on others for spending frivolously, and not using their immense amounts of extra resources to give back to the people suffering in system that they've benefited from; and then they themselves don't do those things, it's kinda fucking concerning.
Socialism is Aesthetic performance, a fucking style.
@@thekycklingwizard78 as a vegan no i dont think that 😂 i think they are human and don't have to fulfill this ideology to some arbitrarily insane T. in fact, the definition of veganism as defined the Vegan Society, the organization that coined the word "vegan", is as follows: "a philosophy and way of living which seeks to exclude-as far as is possible and practicable-all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing or any other purpose; and by extension, promotes the development and use of animal-free alternatives for the benefit of humans, animals and the environment. In dietary terms it denotes the practice of dispensing with all products derived wholly or partly from animals." so yeah that person can still be vegan ☺
Vaush is so protective of Hasan here and he keeps saying stuff like "I'm right under him" that I can only conclude that Vaush is Hassan's personal scrotal support, a task he is proud to do voluntarily, for no compensation other than the honor of proclaiming Hasan as the true god of streaming as well as letting people know that nobody (including Vaush) is important enough to get an audience with this deity.
He just want that clout. If Hasan was a smaller streamer he wouldn't care at all
He is protecting his future self. The one where hes living down the street from Hasan.
@@pauliePwalnuts good one
@@user-gc1wj8tt2p I agree. The way Hasan is behaving is the way a good grifter would. Screaming at the top of his lungs about socialism on stream but never doing anything to move things in that direction politically and using his money in the most flashy capitalist style.
I also think this purported "good" that Hasan does for the socialist movement only exists in an echo chamber on Twitch/UA-cam. I can't imagine blue collar workers (or even most white collar workers for that matter) look at Hasan with his designer jeans and flashy mansion screaming about taxes and think "oh wow what amazing points this guy makes" but rather something closer to "oh look, another rich Hollywood asshole lecturing us normal people on politics and taxes".
@@user-gc1wj8tt2p Oh yes, definitely, Vaush's whole thing is emphasizing results over any sort of morality but I wouldn't worry too much. A truly dangerous person would never state their beliefs so openly. Also Vaush would get BTFO by his own utterances if he even came close to a public office. The only realistic thing he can do is enrich himself like Hasan, which I'm sure he's eager to accomplish.
"Being a total hypocrite with no principals at all is fine as long as it advances socialism" is such a bad take.
I wonder if varsh actually thinks that being a sentient echo chamber for a niche of a niche of a niche where each layer of the niche is even more apathetic about enacting real world change than the last is "advancing socialism."
My guess is that's just a dogshit lazy excuse he's made for himself to cover for the fact that he's just in it for the money.
Vaush said that?!!!!👀 good God.
How does Hasan "advance socialism"? Lmao he's just full on coping at this point
Dude just exposed himself lmao
Look guys, maybe I live in a palace and rule via authoritarian militarism and throw nightly uberorgies while you starve...but it's all for the cause, comrade! Advocacy!
"Please guys just let Hasan grift in peace, as long as he is on my side who cares about what you actually believe, we just need the numbers" - Vaush.
@@asdrt6405 Effective how? Having a large audience means fuck all if they're passive and in the wrong place. His audience is in the age range of those who typically don't vote. And even if they did, unless they're all from swing states, their votes don't matter. Also, Hasan teaches them that action doesn't matter. So they're all gonna be ineffective like him.
The only reason why Biden could implement even an iota of his agenda is that Ossoff and Warnock are in the senate. And you know who actually helped make a difference in that incredibly tight election? Destiny. Meanwhile, Hasan was begging to play Amogus with them like the sad grifter that he is.
@@asdrt6405 bruh, what good are the numbers if you cant even motivate your audience engage with politics at all? Vaush clearly states he has no standards for socialist, you just need to claim it. Your talking about democracy which REQUIRES atleast some form of engagement (voting) at minimum.
In fact the one time hasan does participate, he gets butthurt about his candidate (bernie) losing in the primaries, proceeds to abandon his party, undermine every democrat to the right of him leading up to the election, until coincidently they're willing to collaborate with him via among us streams for a shred of support from him....... like seriously, how can you watch hasans behavior towards Ossof/Warnock during the georgia elections and not see the grift
That’s actually not even a bad take.
@@asdrt6405 thanks for going mask off, glad to know you think destiny's on the ground efforts were fruitless because playing among us with ossof/warnock would've been more effective........
That is literally a defensible position lol. Do you think Conservatives would actually care if they found out Candace Owens was a grifter?
Dog, I want 10 more seasons of this Destiny vs Vaush arc 👀👀👀
that would be the supererogatory good
dont we all?
Ayyy Jabrils!
@@my_alibi super-duper’ogatory
You shouldn’t, after seeing this idk why people even see vaush
When people debate/discuss topics, they should take a 15 minute break every hour. People get super tunnel vision and should be able to reflect over the debate during the break and not after
But then the views would drop. These debates ain't about much other than streamers making their paychecks tbh.
Yeah, like intermissions in a sports game. Time out to talk to chat, strategize, talk to a coach like Booksmarts or something. I'd be interested to see that.
Vaush is not very good at reflexion...
@@theowlsarefun thats alot of effort for an internet debate which has always just been a glorified screaming match.
@@zacharyharbridge9231 but then you dont get those clippable gotcha moments when the other person gets stumped by your ace in the hole trap card source.
so if bezoss just claim himself to be a socialist, then socialist would've nothing to critique him about. big brainn
Edit: seing the replies make me realise how much people who defends hasan or vaush here don’t actually watch the video.
Dude, Hasan spends 8 hours every day redpilling his massive audience on socialism. I'm not gonna condemn him bc he could be doing more to help the cause.
@@gregoryadams9025 imagine being red pillled by a guy who doesn't know what he's talking about. Reminds me of the time that girl told destiny this dude red pilled her, then proceeds to lie about having a music degree to make a point about big band lmao.
@@gregoryadams9025 he's a living caricature that only makes the movement look bad
@@peach_of_justus to be fair, i don't think all the 50% goes directly to bezos. bezos probably take in total of 10%(?)
Bezos is in the unique position to create a significant workplace democracy. Hasan is not. Media worker coops around pundits don't make sense
Every time Vaush speaks it sounds like he's fantasizing that he's a professor saying all this to a lecture hall full of college students.
Sorry, 'elocuting' it to college students. Gotta kick that vocabulary up a level.
Totally agree. Vaush always speaks with the attitude that he's teaching something to you because you're ignorant and he's the enlightened one
@@jlb9210 yeah, his speech reads like someone writing a college admissions essay.
@@samson7294 I've got no issue with big words, in fact, here are two words that perfectly describe Vaush's rhetoric: "patronizing" and "masturbatory"
I always think when he is talking with no cam I feel like he is just closing his eyes and stroking his beard as he talks
@@jlb9210 dude got into college only because of his rich parents
Vaush's "rhetoric" is a fuckin word salad. Sounds like he unironically searches up more "intellectual" synonyms for each word in his sentence. Then incorporate those synonyms to his debate at random moments.
It’s really bad. It hurts my ears
He's a classic politician, talks a lot, says nothing
Basically the manatees that "write" the Family Guy cutaways.
It's something I've noticed a long time ago, he always reminded me of sargon of akkad in this respect
But I'm completely biased, honestly I never liked voosh
@@snezak5399 woah woah woah, slow down, I'm no Vewhaooschwe fan but that's maybe slightly too harsh of comparison, Sarcucked is an entirely different level of nonsensical bullshitting
Apparently multi-millionaires shouldn't be held to a higher standard, it's just unfair apparently.
Poor Hasan, if he paid his mods, and used his money for positive change, he may not be able to splurge on more sports cars. :'(
Just not the multi-millionaires in his camp, because "one person can't change things." A couple of multi-millionaire streamers can't form together like Voltron and be the example they want us, their viewers, to be for them.
Talk is cheap but action is cheap too I guess
@@normandy2501 Continue Simping for your Socialist Gym Boy Hasan
@@normandy2501 I mean, I don't know how one believes super PAC's are formed, how rallies can be mustered. A mix of large appeal and a lot of spare money is the way things are motivated through our politics. I'm confused by how unable one could believe that "one person can't change things" when that is the literal way things are changed in our country.
@@normandy2501 this was sarcasm, right?
Vaush has fallen off since he got big tbh, he became such a clout shark
Indeed
Yes, I miss Vaush from back when he was small and humble
??????????????????
@@jlb9210 it all went downhill after Rittenhouse when he decided to sell his morals for internet brownie points.
Doesn't having a big platform make you less of a clout shark since you already have the clout?
According to Vaush, even Jeff Bezos can be a socialist as long as he says he's a socialist and takes no further action to promote socialism. It would be nice if Bezos did stuff to advocate for socialism, but he doesn't NEED to.
Jeff Bezos isn't a very good example because they are like a retail company. Considering another media entity, like MSNBC, we can see that it is not a good news network because they do not talk about our Leftist issues.
Hasan does talk about Leftist issues. Most of media is like a starving wolf in the middle of the forest looking for red meat. It is about time Leftists' have their dog. Destiny is another leftist as well (at least in relation to the right wingers he debates regularly).
I can't believe capitalists don't all start businesses to expand on capitalism. You capitalists are so hypocritical. It would be nice if you did stuff to advocate for capitalism, but you don't NEED to.
maybe if Jeff Bezos agitated people by saying "tax the rich. i probably don't deserve all this wealth", then he would be more helpful to socialism
Jeff Bezos isn't even the richest person anymore, it's Elon Musk. Green technology is great and all, but if workers are subject to the same working conditions like in Tesla factories, and huge wealth disparities remain in the capitalist system, then Elon Musk is no hero of socialism and needs to have his wealth redistributed as well.
@@Molecular-Brainwaves-Translate why does that matter? Should we only hold the richest person in the world to account? Also this figure will fluctuate wildly based on Tesla stock prices so it's not even a good measure.
I wish "Lead by example" was considered an acceptable response to all this. Hasan has an ends in mind and does absolutely nothing that tangibly contributes, the example he is providing is textbook slactivism complain about it and maybe vote for it if it ever actually reaches ballot but it wont because no ones actually making any progress. We want our leaders, including political advocates to you know... be a positive example of the ideals we preach?
We despise the lazy boss because they expect us to do all the work while they do none, we despise the priest who gives into their vices while condemning the sinners for the same vices, and we despise the man who tells us to live by the ideals not even he can be bothered to.
How mad can you be that self proclaimed socialists are better at capitalism then you are? Jfc we live in an ultra capitalist society which treats social works and its workers like rapists you think we are going to go full socialist when yall been trying to murder jail and silence socialists for centuries. Keep trippin over yourselves tho, yall look dumb.
@@dallasmoorenumberone did you even read his comment
@@kademorrill7334 yes.....and its dumb, in my ideal world, dumb people would be quite, that doesnt mean I'm going to shut up in this shitty one.
“Does nothing that tangibly contributes” the only socialist media personality ?
@@septic1502 more americans then ever before are socialist and socialist adjacent too, tracks almost perfectly with the rise of hassan and breadtube. But Its not meaningful unless all capital is abolished i guess.
sucks that people who literally want to eat rich people are held to a different standard
The lengths that Vaush will go to just to justify not having any principals at all are amazing.
"Please stop arguing with me, I don't want to have principles" is basically the way it sounds when people confront Vaush or his fans about sticking to your principles.
Duh dood he's an anarchist- no rules baby!!
Actual somersaults and corkscrews
He LITERALLY SAID “I think hasan should do more with his platform and money”
@@Yo-sb9st I've heard billionaires use the same argument when they don't want to be taxed. You know the whole charity vs tax argument
Vaush is being really funny in this one. He is becoming a parody of himself and I'm so here for it. I haven't laughed this hard at a debate in a min. 10/10
We are living in the matrix. Those are just the hints
He just can't stop outpacing
"Is becoming" like he was respectable at some point, lol no.
HOW DOES THIS GUY EXSIST IM LITERALLY TRIGGERED.
And what have you.
Trying to have a discussion about a criticism of his political beliefs and he doesn't even participate in the discussion. He just says the same thing he has thought or said to people in the past, either not listening or just ignoring him intentionally. Really infuriating how people like this gain popularity.
I have a feeling that Vaush has made several silly mistakes and has some positions that just don't make much sense, but instead of taking the L and developing his approach he just doubles down and forces his politics and ethics to match everything he happens to do anyway. Like he's so deeply afraid of being embarrassed or being wrong that he just refuses to accept any issue with what he says by making criticism "irrelevant" to his "framework".
Indeed! The guy is too egotistical. This is intellectually embarassing to watch (50 mins in).
He's also so condescending it's painful. He talks to everybody like he's literally a god being forced to deal with annoying peasants
That is a charitable interpretation Imo. He cannot criticize Hassan and his grift because that is exactly what he is doing. Just wait 5 years and Vaush will have a mansion himself. Criticizing his grift bro will bite him in the ass later and make purchasing a rich mansion too difficult.
"I've seen this from everyone, you know: Destiny, Ben Shapiro, whatever..." - Vaush, the manipulative rhetorician
Less scary to lob lazy insults than actually debate! Vooshie knows his ideas can't stand up to scrutiny.
His imbecilic, roleplaying socialist fanbase knows it too
He's literally not wrong both of those people are fundamentally saying the exact same thing
@@andrewcowan6688 Too bad Vaush is doing lazy ad-hom associations instead of arguing effectively to the contrary lol
@@andrewcowan6688 But you know why he says it.
@@rockstar-made Because it's true lol
This Vaush vs Destiny feud is going to be bigger than Assassins and Templars feud lol
more like the Destiny desperately obsessing over Vaush while Vaush completely ignores him.
@@phoneAntics you’re subbed just to click on notifications and talk shit, and you’re calling other people obsessed?
@@lil_pan46 he might like destiny but think he’s cringe when it comes to obsessing over vaush like myself
@@bobjones5869 how’s this obsessing over Vaush? Reacting to content = obsessed?
@@lil_pan46 I think we can all agree that Vaush is a guy that debates in a bad faith. It's better if Destiny moves on.
Vaush could eat a sandwich condescendingly. His false claims of good faith and being charitable in debate are so transparent. Its painful to see how many people fall for it or give him the benefit of doubt.
@@user-gc1wj8tt2p He's not a good talker. He just talks slow and clear and that makes people who don't turn on their brain think he's smart because they watch House and Dexter all day and think a guy slowly stating a point that's contradictory to the other guys point in a condescending tone makes him right.
You can argue that's good in the sense of numbers but in terms of quality, hell no. Sound like a simp but destiny is an extremely effective talker. He says stuff that I would usually refuse to engage with but in such a way so as to be more of a question with a push and pull than "Well, you see, you're unequivocally wrong, and explaining so is supererogatory but despite my utilitarian consequentialist stance I shall explain as such so you can stop being mistaken all the time-" Because using big words and talking slow makes you sounds smart to the people who think animal farm is a book about cows. It's plain to see how awful he is when he gets heated. He starts throwing out purely false statements and gets dunked on hardcore, he can hardly formulate a sentence and just cracks because he can't soliloquize, to yoink his method for a moment.
Its really hard to watch Vaush debate now days. He rarely admits to being wrong and will weasel his way out rhetorically when cornered. Plus he's incredibly smug..
It was clearest when he spoke with Ask yourself. Lol
@@paulaagam5071 I was laughing out loud hearing the bullets AY made him bite. Anyone who doesn't believe it should watch that video, AY made him sound like a literal lunatic.
"From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs".
For someone with such little ability, Hasan sure does have some needs.
Special needs😎
the problem is that hasan's main skill is that of the pied piper, he attracts the few people even dumber than him and scams them.... the size of his following is worrisome
Isn’t that saying specific to the Soviets?
@@aleczitzelberger8123
It's Karl Marx.
Marxists you men.
Soviets are Lenin & Stalin.
Vaush keeps talking about how socialist are held to "higher standards". They are held to their standards they created FFS. Conservatives don't have a problem with rich people , the socialist do.
EXACTLY
I lost it at the Vaush trope of calling Ahrelevant 'seething and upset' in his monotone tone just after where he broke and got upset saying Ahrelevant is "becoming bad faith."
I’m one of the weirdos that think vaush is generally ok, but holy god did he look so bad here. Straw-manning like crazy and even doing a dumb voice to explain ahrrelavants actually very logical questions/points was so unbelievably bad faith and honestly childish
But... That's all he ever does..?
@@the_inquisitive_inquisitor lmao I 100% anticipated this response 😂
I guess this was the most eye opening and obvious. It was legit painfully bad logic
@@shiitalkiemushrooms4487 my first exposure to both Vaush and Destiny was the Kenosha shooting debate. Vaush was so obviously wrong, condescending and smug all at the same time that I instantly moved 20% away from the left just to get away from him.
@@the_inquisitive_inquisitor I’d have to check it out? I’m not familiar tbh. Yea, I was a pretty die hard lefty even up to a year ago, but listening to some of the other stuff out there really is pushing me away from the far left. I don’t know what’s hard about understanding ‘practice what you preach’ that ahrellavant was especially talking about is so bad. If I’ve amassed millions, I def would love to look into helping the community. But vaush is hard trying to paint him as since your a little less left than me, then you’re basically a conservative. It actually cuts directly against his argument of growing the circle by lowering standards
@@shiitalkiemushrooms4487 To save you a couple hours, the clip basically showcases Vaush's willingness to paint a narrative that didn't exist just because he assumed it was true, alledging that the shooter was gunning down people fleeing from him, when there's video footage he could've watched that showed the shooter essentially firing on a mob rushing him after he fell to the ground. He then gets so stuck in arguing for death = moral bad that he advocates for a black man submitting themselves to a racist mob rushing him because, "Better to submit to a mob and only maybe have 1 death than have to defend yourself resulting in multiple deaths for sure."
Most fascist would agree that rape and murder is bad, should I now rethink my position on these issues since it aligns me with them Vaush?
Hell most convicted rapists and murderers would understand that rape and murder is bad (even if they still coit those acts.) Vaush likes to accuse other people of being essentialists and then he goes and says shit like "you're wrong because thats what Ben Shapiro said."
Vaush genuinely believes he's the smartest person on this planet, guaranteed. His ego balloon is eventually going to burst one day.
It already has destiny burst it that's why he won't debate with him anymore. As long as he doesn't associate with him his ego is intact.
Nope his defense mechanism doesn't allow it I'm pretty sure I've seen him deny common knowledge just because it went against his argument
someone should ask vaush.. a hypothetical . where hassan is rescued from an abandoned island where the only food source is coconuts. and when asked how he survived , Hassan says "well me and another person were the only ones who survived the crash so I was lucky enough to have waken up first and collected all the coconuts..."
is there still no moral obligation, as long as Hassan made sure to preach to the other survivor about what socialism is?
Please someone ask this!
When Destiny said "F*** whoever taught Vaush that word" (supererogatory) I cracked up. Destiny had a whole stream about that word and Vaush clearly watched it and ran with it.
destiny singlehandedly introduced the twitch politics field to philosophy and i fucking hate it. those people that forced him into it should be deleted and the timeline rewritten. this is the worst one. philosophy is such a garbage boring thing to talk about in almost all cases.
@@tanszism nah its just that these online dipshits use "philosophy" to hide their garbage arguments behind it.
Philosophy is interesting and fun when appropriate. Sean Carroll, for example, covers a lot of interesting philosophy on his podcast, especially when it comes to metaphysics and onthology. Just recently he had an interview with a neuroscientist who is also a philosopher who is trying to rigorously and accurately describe emergence of consciousness. That's interesting, precise and there is progress.
There has also been an interview with a logician who mathematically rigorously explored moral universes and concludes that you can in fact treat moral systems just as rigorously as mathematical formal systems. Again, real progress here, where we are actually starting to *finally* get some rigour to morality.
Ctrl+V
@@tanszism No, that’s not at all the case. These people just don’t know when to invoke philosophy and rather use their remedial understanding of it as a conversational cudgel, which borders on the physically painful for those of us who work in the field.
@@tanszism i feel really bad because i really enjoy speaking about philosophy or even hearing conversations about it. Im not a philosopher or philosophy student but i am a student of a field closely related to it and so i like listening to destiny and laymen talk about it with people who are more knowledgeable about it. Anyway i like destiny's philosophy talks because he is nuanced and he understands the inherent pointlessness of it. I don't like other's who have essentially done with philosophy what people have done with politics which is define their everything around it
I've seen some cringe debates but this one was really painful
Excruciating
Honestly the cringe just compounds when you can see his chat displaying moral and ethical inconsistency to a huge degree. This didn't even feel like a debate, it felt like someone was talking to a robot with NPC dialogue options. Vaush needs a Free Guy moment.
@@colebeejack3898 dude, no one really gives a shit about inconsistencies
@@63Limar that's a part of the problem
@@63Limar I think there are a ton of people who do, but don't know how to express it in a way that can be informative and not condescending, or some other reason.
I am a vegan that eats meat 🍖 👏 we are valid 👏
Veganism means no food
Lol
Damn right you are!
When lab grown meat becomes widely accessible, I will be too.
Hasan is a valid socialist, because when he argues against others in his class he illuminates the socialist issues. I still wish all of rich peoples' money was redistributed. This is a coherent ideology.
This conversation summed up:
"I don't consider accusations of hypocrisy to be relevant - all of your arguments can be (mis)represented as accusations of hypocrisy - ergo your arguments hold no weight"
Vaush is genuinely terrifying.
what is ergo?
@@GGGmod1 basically means “therefore”
Hypocrisy is a tepid argument at best. Socialism doesn't mean "no conspicuous consumption" it's belief in workerplace democracy and decommodification. You could say Hasan is not a hypocrit. socialism is the belief in a socialist system not that individuals will/must do better. You can have spineless, greedy, fallable humans in a socialist system.
Not surprising at all - hypocrisy is the practice of claiming to have moral standards or beliefs to which one's own behavior does not conform. Vaush is a moral nihilist, and moral standards are practically irrelevant to him, it's all about power to him - of course he doesn't care about hypocrisy. Vaush will defend Hasan from any moral criticism as long as he thinks Hasan is helping push people towards his idea of socialism. Whether Hasan actually knows or believes in socialism is totally irrelevant. I believe the technical term for people like Hasan in Vaush's world is "useful idiot".
Don't forget Vaush is also arguing that Hasan is too big [and just one] to consider any of his 'coworkers' (Twitch streamers) and viewers as a means to do better at what he advocates.
I'm starting to agree with based Vaush, he could be arguing that Bezos and Amazons platforming of Socialists is a net positive utility so who cares if they also smash unionizing? :)
Vaush: I don't care about hypocrisy.
also Vaush: Nick Fuentes is gay btw
I think someone needs to call Vaush out for dying on this hill because he believes he's going to be as rich as Hasan and doesn't want to have to deal with the same criticisms. His argument is absolute dogshit. If you were to go by his own logic, he should never make a video about Ben Shapiro because he's too big to be swayed.
I actually think you're pretty close to the truth behind the motive; it's definitely somewhere in that spectrum.
Vaush dryly jokes at some point that he actually hates Hasan because Hasan is the biggest political streamer when Vaush would prefer himself to be. The hate part is the "joke"; coveting Hasan's position isn't. But the criticisms Hasan faces currently are rather less desirable than his influence, so better to put them to bed now. That way by the time he makes it big, he can rest easy
Funnily enough, this is literally the leftist "temporarily embarrassed millionaire/billionaire'" meme. Vaush is just closer to achieving it.
It's not Ben Shapiro he wants to sway but BS audience who sees him as an authority figure.
Also good content.
💯💯💯💯
The REAL feud is between August and Tempest/Ryan. If Destiny doesn't talk over the participants of the original content and August gets the video up before Vaush's editors can get the original up, Destiny can straight up yoink significant Vaush's viewership, assuming there's a significant overlap
Shiiiiit, the algorithm came in with the steel chair, Vaush uploaded his 20 hours ago, whereas this was uploaded 8 hours ago.
UA-cam blessed this video putting it at the top of my list this morning, which odd considering I watch a lot more Vaush videos than Destiny’s.
@@wangdangler5273 Soon we'll be getting recommendations for videos from Ostonox of Hasan watching Ostonox's videos of Hasan reacting to Destiny reviewing Vaush's debates before he even streams them
I hate vaush
@@karatekevlar I love lamp
This is an absolute scumbag move, I will remember this.
I love how vaush defends Hasan all the time in the hopes of one day being able to collab with him. Vaush it’s not gonna happen, you’re small time.
Ahrelevant should have just bit the hypocrisy argument bullet, cause that's literally what everybody means when Hasan is criticized.
Finally, thank you.
Yeah hypocrisy isn't exactly a good thing. It's a valid criticism, especially for this.
"Hasan has a measure of knowledge." .... OMEGALUL
Comparing a hypebeast streamer with a middle class guy because they both have spare money at the end of the month was incredibly bad faith, it's like saying that Musk and Bezos' space fuckery is the same as a small business owner investing in their stuff, scale matters.
It's kinda weird to see Vaush going so far to defend Hasan's slacktivism when they're not even that close, it makes me think that he'll be targeted by the same criticisms any time soon and wants to defend his future self before it happens
Vaush is saying that his moral system can't discriminate between superiorogatory and obligatory while saying that we have an obligation to just ask Hasan nicely to change instead of making fun of him.
No, that's not what he's saying. He's saying that we should use language and behavior that convinces people to do good things and not to do bad things, and he thinks that encouragement is generally more effective at that than condemnation.
@@pyritefoolsgold3521 okay but via his perspective what obligation do we have to do the option he thinks is more effective? Hasan would be far more effective if he did literally anything with his millions and yet Vaush says that you can't make obligatory statements there.
@@pyritefoolsgold3521 I agree, that’s why we should stop calling Bezos greedy and insulting him. We should ask nicely for him to donate
@@pyritefoolsgold3521 that’s absolutely not what he’s saying, not even close. You just boiled down Vaush’s entire argument to “be nice is better than be mean when convincing someone” even though we’re regularly willing to make fun of other millionaires for their exorbitant wealth, I guess we should also be nice to them? What a bootlicker take
@@pyritefoolsgold3521 how do you convince someone to do good things without having negative consequences for negative actions? Like how would I discourage my daughter to not steal from her brother when there is no punishment for stealing?
Vaush - "I hate him and want to be bigger than him" "Im the next stream below him in terms of size" Homie's ego is slipping out of his pants.
"I hate him and want to be bigger than him" is an obvious joke though, and isn't he talking about leftie streamers? I can't think of any leftie streamers that are bigger than vaush other than hasan
Watching the first 30 minutes of this debate with Vaush and Ahrelevant and I'm struggling to continue. Vaush doesn't want to commit to anything and is indeed doing the loki wager fallacy. Vaush has really fallen off the wagon this past couple years, has he just intellectually given up or something?
No, see, you merely can't follow, as Vaush has intellectually outpaced Destiny & U
He's a fraud, he wants to be like Hasan
Yeah he has become a little lazy in his thinking since he’s become so successful. Plus this particular topic can apply to him so he’s also motivated to protect himself from allegations of hypocrisy.
He was never an intellectual. He's a charismatic grifter just like The Amazing Banana.
That's why they're besties.
Clearly.... he has outpaced *himself* intellectually.
I’m really disappointed at how Vaush basically
sold out on his ideas to appease an audience that doesn’t represent his actual views. I respect the grind, but it’s super disappointing as a long time viewer. We should really uphold honesty to a high degree in these political communities.
True I was so excited for his talk about packs and politics101
Vaush was always a grifter
@@exiledhebrew1994 I don’t think so. I used to watch all of his VODs and I believe he genuinely wants to help make the world a better place, but then he got addicted to the influence and money.
@@samson7294 damn, the purity testing is crazy even in Vaush’s community. I used to watch all of his vods for like 2 years lol
Honesty is the 1st principal
I like Vaush in some debates, but holy shit, he really just sounds like he’s saying
“I know it’s bad….but I might get on Hasan’s stream if I defend him enough!”
@@askers_ half of destiny’s audience does I don’t get your point
@@askers_ what does “Someone like you” mean?
@@ryanwilliams9712 you know. Someone like *you*
@@Lizard1582 what's your definition for "someone"?
@@maxmustermann1225 you know. someone.
I've spoken well of Steven's Swedish previously, and then he stumbles on the classic "smörgåsbord". Steven, Steven you have to do better than that if you want to join our SocDem utopia and not merely be a tourist here every time you need a haircut.
shmor Gush board
Smor gas board
Smor gus bored
He shouldn't even pronounce it the Swedish way.
It's become a different word in English, with a different meaning.
@@TheRedHaze3 I had that feeling when he was in Amsterdam with Melina and talking about how to pronounce Copenhagen. Melina said "KopenHARgen", as if she was almost German, and Destiny followed suit.
Copenhagen is an English word... pronounce it like an English speaker would: CopenHEYgen. Or try your luck with something like Kobenhaun if you wanna approach the pronunciation of the actual Danish word København, but at that point you're no longer trying to pronounce Copenhagen.
Its pronounced almost exactly how its spelled even if you're reading it as English I don't know how people struggle with this
@@oOPPHOo Or you could be a hipster like us here in Iceland and call København by its older name, Kaupmannahöfn.
I don’t know how anybody could say that vaush isn’t a grifter at this point lol. I’ve seen him steal talking points from destiny due to it being more defensible, he’s said lying is ok if it furthers his cause (which also increases his wealth simultaneously ironically), and talks about the exploitation of workers but isn’t mad at leftist doing it because it somehow hurts the movement Lmfaoo. He’s a meme currently Lmfaoo
Why should anyone listen to Vaush preach a lifestyle that he openly states is a lifestyle he wouldn't want to live.
Here’s the crux of the argument that ahrelevant seems to not be able to articulate the best: it’s not that Hassan is a socialist and makes money, it’s that Hassan is a socialist and lives his life as a capitalist. He’s constantly maximizing his own well being, even at the expense of others when he clearly has the means to provide more to those who provide labor for him, he’s constantly flexing and flaunting his wealth, he’s extremely shallow and materialistic which is funny considering how many videos he’s made criticizing those traits and how they’re a product of the evils of capitalism. THAT is the problem, he preaches these socialist ideals and how evil capitalism is, but goes around living his best capitalist life.
I swear Vaush talks 10 minutes about something that could be said in 30 seconds, just to make sure it looks good optically.
This guy has very few strong positions, he's a chameleon.
grifter, more like.
I think the criticism is this : " You claim to be a socialist, but I don't see you doing any socialist sh!t."
Ahrelevant: "I disagree..."
Vaush: "No, I totally agree [with myself]."
One of these individuals isn't interested in what the other has to say...
Vaush came to defend himself and Hasan, not have a conversation with Ahrelevant
@@deebo429__ By talking with who, again? What is the derivative word for speaking with someone else about a topic, at length?
The sychophantic tendencies must run pretty strong to defend someone talking to another person by claiming it's not a conversation.
Vaush is a sophist at best, who uses (poorly) debate bro tactics to frame conversations (meaningless) in such a way that a certain subsection of the population is naively fooled into believing he has anything worthwhile or genuine to say. I am regularly surprised at how large a section of the population that is, which saddens me.
@@michahsimmons7568 imagine reading something and misunderstanding it this hard
@@deebo429__ Imagine attempting to frame a foolish statement as insightful this hard. Sycophant detected.
@@michahsimmons7568 my point, is that vaush only came to talk about his points and never address the person he was talking to. He was arguing against the Twitter mob the entire conversation. Not sure what you're skitzoposting about
“It’s good for their mental health”
Wow…
Everytime Vaush’s stupidity goes to a low, I think that there’s no way he can go lower, but he surprises me everytime.
Idk man. This seems obvious to me. The hypocrisy stuff seems really important because he’s advocating for a system he himself doesn’t want to live under. So pointing it out seems like something people should be doing.
I wonder if Hasan is paying Vaush for his amazin PR work, what a hard working guy
@@ItsSawyer8 nice meme
@@ItsSawyer8 he must be so tired :(
if taxing the rich gets more popular, maybe we will all get a payout. i'm still subscribed to Hasan. and i vote too.
The funny part is Hasan doesnt like Vaush
@@samson7294 Right, what Vaush is really doing here is laying the groundwork for when he becomes ultra wealthy and buys a nice house.
So glad I unsubscribed from Vaush, his underlying philosophy is irrational and is purely power driven.
This is the same Vaush that supported Hunter yelling at Shoe for not holding herself to a higher standard when she shared a joke she thought was funny? Hypocrite much?
Wait, what?
@@infinityquartz4744 see previous video of Vaush commenting on Hunter chewing out Shoe for making a joke on Twitter. Is on Vaush's channel.
Vaush always seems to think people have a moral obligation to express the same political ideas as he does, but apparently he applies a different standard to improving the world directly
Isn't that what politics are though? Trying to convince everyone that their moral agenda is the correct path and criticize other because they have a separate moral thought process? Unfortunately it is this way I think
@@flemaster12 It's not that they want everyone to agree with them, it's that they don't do anything to help the cause except argue online and get rich. If you only benefit directly from an immoral system, yet do nothing to change it, then it looks like you don't believe in what you're arguing for, because you might say whatever makes you money instead.
Vaush actually has the gall to call Destiny a contrarian? This conversation is literally having no position and just arguing for the hell of it. I dont think he could state particulars about the position hes defending if you asked.
Gosh Vaush is so disgusting, Ahrevelant you made amazing points he couldn't counter anything head on
Can you elaborate on them?
I am genuinely concerned for vaush and his wanting to show his smart. But he is so mindless at times that it hurts.
@@askers_ he didn't mean it like that bud..
@@roboticvenom1935
I genuinely appreciate the niceness in responses to people who doesn't, at face value, deserve it. Thanks!
@@justanothernick3984 Thanks man, i don't normally respond like that either!
@@askers_ Cringe.
No, he’s mindless all the time.
Does anyone else find the topic of the debate ironic considering Vaush is playing a Blizzard game after their every controversy for the past 3 years?
he self admitted that everyone is hypocrite, again, choosing the third-person perspective in every discussion. It's like someone's discussing something on his own and vaush standing high above nit-picking all the nuances in what this person is saying while never fully nesting himself in any one position. He subtlety situates himself in the socially morally correct position every step forward in the argument, constantly pandering to his audience. No doubt when he turns off his stream you can probably talk to him, but its so painfully obvious how he constantly panders, its actually painful, I rather some racist nazi standing tall by his positions then a skittering roach that disperses to air when your foot finally gets over it
@@zoolio it’s Diablo 2. It’s not quite Hades in terms of overall structure but it likely influenced Hades in terms of level “design” and probably affected gameplay somewhere in there. It’s an old, popular game (re-released with new graphics) so it’s likely affected the entire hack-n-slash genre
13:50 "They're not socialist, overwhelmingly it's conservatives and liberals doing it" (attacking Hasan).
Is that actually true? From everything I've seen it seemed like it was lefties that were legit mad at Hasan where everyone I've seen comment about this on the right just seemed to find it funny and hypocritical.
Depends if proportionally or in totality. Lefties are vastly outnumbered by conservatives and liberals don't forget
@@jascu4251 In some spaces. There are plenty of spaces where everyone, or at least the vast majority are avowed leftists and they want you to know that.
@@hazzardalsohazzard2624 I guess you’re talking about online spaces? I live in the US. and have never been anywhere where the majority of people are leftists
I wonder what Vaush thinks about Ayn Rand taking social security money since socialists have pretty consistently called her a hypocrite for doing so.
No that's ok because it advances socialism and therefore it's a utilitarian net positive
I think you could make an argument that objectivism includes direct prescriptions of about personal conduct than socialism does by virtue of it being focused on singular people’s desires. That would be the steel man.
Vaush doesn’t seem to understand utilitarianism.
this dabate made me a republican thanks
maybe we can get more republicans to come to the center and let these insane lefties live on twitter talking about shit no one cares about.
Up until now I haven’t been bothered by the hasan situation but the longer
Vaush talks the more I lean toward ahrelevant. And I’m a vaush fan.
Kinda guy who fondly remembers “SJW CRINGE COMPILATION #35”
How can you still be a Vaush fan. He sold out intellectually so hard.
I appreciate your ability to listen to words and form opinions with your brain. Its hard to understand but I think you might be getting at something.
Wtf, did Vaush seriously try to claim that the "exploitation of labour" is a moral claim (at 2:43:20)? Reformed socialist here, but I'm pretty sure Marx's concept of the "exploitation of labour" was never a moral claim, it was simply an economic claim. I don't think Marx was worried about whether or not it was immoral, only that it was a thing that could be scientifically observed about the economy. This is one of the biggest misunderstandings of Marx that modern socialists have and it seems Vaush, for all his grandstanding about intellectual outpacing, has the same misunderstanding of the theory he espouses. Please someone correct me if I'm wrong.
More than wrongness I think it's an intentional change.
Given that Marx did *want* Socialism, and coincidentally thought it was inevitable, the idea that Marxists expect as well as desire socialism have become unseparable from each other, but since the third period never came, they were forced to move on to more purely moral concerns to justify socialism.
Was Vaush always this cringe or has he just gotten worse over time? Real question.
he’s gotten way more cringe
He got more money
1:58:05 this is where I lost it, if we didn't obligate standards on other people, to some degree, then this world would truly be chaotic
i wonder if vaush’s audience ever questions why vaush doesn’t debate or talk to destiny. he says the right is too afraid to debate the left because they know they are wrong….. well vaush if you’re outpacing destiny intellectually, shouldn’t you be confident you can destroy his arguments????? weird man
Vaush’s tone of voice and demeanor suggests that he was on the losing end of this argument from the start, and he knew it.
He knows he’s being dishonest, yes.
I bounce back between Destiny and Vaush I like them both but I find myself gravitating towards Destiny more and more as time goes on….
I don't understand what there is to like about Vaush. He's smug, condescending and stupid all at the same time. Plus his politics are garbage
DGG 4 LYFE 😎🤙
Vaush is like Superman. It's fun watching him team up with people like him to beat up people you don't like. It's when he's by himself trying to have his own stories that you realize he was kinda leaning on other people to make up for his flaws.
@@note4note804 Destiny is literally Batman :O
When Vaush said "why not $500,000??" the other guy should have said "Well, why not $100/hr instead of 15??". Disappointed to hear Vaush take the conservative position, that is focusing on "the line" when it comes to income inequality. He KNOWS it's not about some universally acceptable number 😒
agreed. equally disappointed
Vaush: "Hypocrisy, when elucidated and conceptualized via my praxis-orientated, holistic, dialectical, para-meta-metaphysical, ontological analysis....simply doesn't exist." 🤷🏽♂️
🤮
The "you cant come up with a specific number so your argument is false" is a Sargon tier argument. Sargon used this on Vaush (exactly how many employees do you need to mandate cooperaization?) and Vaush talked about why it's wrong in detail when reviewing the debate.
It seems as if Vaush just learns the definitions large words and concepts just to be able to discredit whomever he is talking to. And then Vaush pushes how because that person is discredited, all Vaush's positions are therefore credible. Which reminds me of people Vaush uses to also discredit others. Like at the beginning of this debate.
He also seems to take credit for every good point the other person makes by blanket saying, "I just said," that and going on a monologue.
“The argument you’re making is deontological. Occom’s razor dictates that a phenomenological arbitration of duality sublimates to a utilitarian perspective.” - Vaush, probably.
And then goes on to misuse the word ferment instead of foment.
"Holding them (socialists) to a higher standard, usually hurts the movement" -Vaush
If you spend allll your waking hours preaching to a cause, collecting /massive/ donations for the lip service, but doing nothing actively for that cause, that’s a bad case of grifting, almost theft, and deserves to be publicly shamed.
No it isnt. He has gotten many people to be on the left which is a material good change. His issue is being a Grifter by saying things like "buying expensive houses is immoral" then does it. His actions going against his VALUES are what makes him a hypocrite
@Mario Mario but did he do that?
From what i know, he talks about being against private property not against personal.
I saw a video where he criticized "mega mansions" which his house isn't. At all.
His house would be like a typical house a good earning german worker would get a bank loan for. Probably 400.000€ in my area. If the sources are true, his property would be like 300 squaremeter. That's not crazy huge for a guy who makes his kind of money.
Of course he won't have to pay for it over the span of 10+ years, but he probably didn't buy it cash either.
I don't think what he bought was crazy, just the market is fucked. And we can't influence it buy not buying a house. Someone will.
Unless you believe we can vote with our dollars.
@@desotaku5202 yes in a vox video he criticized buying exorbitantly expensive properties because it impacts the community around and he does the same thing. And yes a 3 MILLION DOLLAR HOUSE is absolutely a mansion and exorbitant. If you're attempting attempting be this dishonest then don't even reply. Nobody besides the super rich fan afford this.
@@desotaku5202 okay so because personal property is fine, but private property is wrong. Would it be moral for Hasan to buy a mansion and not use it, but immoral for Hasan to buy it and rent it out?
@@JDG-hq8gy both would be immoral.
Being a landlord is far from socialist and buying property without using it is taking a home that someone else could have used in the meantime.
Ethical is buying a place for yourself and living in it.
Vaush: Is rape ok if someone thinks it's ok?
Brilliant Vaush. You really came up with an awesome argument there. We cant hold people to their own standards because of this asinine rape example. What a dishonest piece of shit.
Vaush holding people to their stated standards opens himself up to others doing the same to him, he will never hold someone in his sphere to what they preach as a form of self preservation
36:15
"You have engaged in an unfathomable degree of arbitraity over the course of this conversation"
shame destiny was afk for this banger
Specifically… Vaush is wrong about utilitarianism. Produce most happiness with least amount of suffering. If Happy > suffer = good utility. There is not good action In this system at least by the standards it’s founder wrote. JS Mill tried to make it less aloof and contingent, but I think he failed in that. You can make any argument a utilitarian one because it wasn’t meant for moral work, but policy work. Though the founder found himself quite happy with it as a moral system
I view it as a proxy moral system. It's good for like 90% of life, is durable enough to withstand being pushed to some crazy limits and is usually all you need, but in those few instances where it can't perform it crumbles to dust without a more robust and foundational moral system to assist.
@@Crispman_777 well can you give me an example of a problem that cant be examined utilitarianly?
At some point every moral system cracks in terms of sanity, similar to how quantum mechanics is more of a way to describe quantum interactions as an abstract that gets really silly when trying to apply it too narrowly.
I think Destiny’s all or nothing moral system breaks on the “single blade of grass” take. Because Destiny is applying a binary to property protection rights, it basically means someone could gun down teenagers for barely touching their lawn if a sign is present. Which is fucking silly and would be a horrible society to live in.
@@complimentbotd7232 Sure. Creating a hypothetical to break utilitarianism is fairly easy: Two identical twins are trapped in a car crash and there's only time to save one before the engine explodes. Emma on the left back passenger seat and Alicia on the right. They both wore seatbelts and have incredibly similar clothes, accolades, traits, relationships and flaws and neither one will be quicker or easier to save than the other. Who do you save?
It basically fails in any "rock and a hard" place situation where either decision will be equally good/bad.
@@aleczitzelberger8123 I don't think he actually believes those positions in a practical sense. They're mental exercises more than actual positions you'd make policy around. Remember the blade of grass example was in response to an **infinite** thief. It's like asking if you would resort to cannibalism if you had no other choice. Regardless of your position, it's likely never going to happen. I do agree with your first point though. A single moral system is never enough.
Vaush is so slippery man. A Reddit thread gained sentience and started streaming. Ick.
At this point Vaush just makes me cringe cause he talks like any fedora-wearing pseudo-intellectual. He makes no real points, stumbles around and relies completely on his smug tone.
The combination of utilitarianism and supererogation is utterly bonkers. From the wiki on the latter concept: 'Some schools of moral philosophy do not include supererogatory acts. In utilitarianism, an act can only be better because it would bring more good to a greater number, and in that case it becomes a duty, not a supererogatory act.'
Vaush is wrong here overall, but to be fair he does say that he can't really provide a solution to Ahrelevant's question of obligation (vs. supererogation) within his moral framework. So Vaush does actually address utilitarianism's inability to address this
@@index3876 It's a shame then that he didn't at least try to change his stance. Philosophical framings are lens to view issues. When one is directly lacking in efficacy, and you wish to approach the problem in good faith, adjusting your lenses will be necessary.
Honestly, I see Vaush's stance on this issue a great example of missing the forest for the trees. He is so bent on the genuine rightwing attack on socialism that he cannot step back and realize that he is currently unable to hold people in positions of power to any ideals.
@@joeyhuddleston7072 I think Vaush is coming from a similar emotional place to me, where we both believe fascism in America is such an imminent, existential threat that it has to be destroyed by any means necessary.
Where we disagree is how this should be accomplished.
@@aleczitzelberger8123 Which is totally fair. I would ask both of you then why it isn't right to push Hasan (and by extension Vaush) to do more with their platform. If fascism is such a threat then surely more impact than mere exposure is necessary to combat it.
@@joeyhuddleston7072 I want to push people like Vaush to do more without going full blast in a way that causes the kind of lefty infighting and negativity that led to the 2016 zeitgeist of anti-SJW culture and Trump, which I admit I am frequently nervous that Destiny may be unintentionally helping to herald.
I think the correct way to do this is meet them where they are emotionally, and push with encouragement and incentives, similar to how you get a horse to cooperate when leading it around.
Never thought I'd see a communist argue that a capitalist not wanting to pay their workers is "hypocritcal". Talk about losing the plot.
So THAT's why everyone's been talking about Vaush on the subreddit
Here’s the argument. As a socialist utilitarian, vaush should believe that capitalism is wrong. Capitalism is the status quo. When someone acts no different from the status quo, they perpetuate the status quo, which is wrong.
His argument is that participation in status quo is a neutral act. Now, I don’t think that’s actually true, but I do think status quo participation is unworthy of hatred, otherwise us Americans start suddenly looking like more valid targets for jihadists in the “retribution for war crimes” game.
@@aleczitzelberger8123 I mean, there's nothing inherently "morally neutral" about about the status quo.
The status quo for humans has involved ritual sacrifice of children and the rounding up and extermination of millions of Jews. Appealing to the status quo is at best an appeal to ignorance, which does have some merit in absolving moral culpability.
It's also important to take into account an individual's means or ability to deviate from the status quo if they believe it to be wrong. This is the argument that Destiny and many others make as a reason that someone like Hasan should have higher expectations placed on them considering their great means.
Thr question isn't whether jihadist's have a genuine argument for moral apathy or even wrongdoing, which they probably do. It's whether or not that moral failing is worthy of indiscriminate acts of mass murder as a fair or productive punishment, which is pretty obviously no imo.
@@SirLied are Americans then all bad people for not advocating harder against our involvement in certain conflicts abroad where we commit war crimes?
All of us have the capacity to learn about it, vote against it, and show disdain in public of it, but the vast, vast majority of Americans have no interest or enough energy to exercise this ability despite the fact that polling shows these conflicts are very unpopular.
It seems like that would then indicate that every American that dislikes the occupations, but doesn’t spend a meaningful amount of free time advocating against it are culpable in said occupations.