Evil never won. Jesus was sacrifice was foreseen or plan before the foundation of the world. Evil and all of this pain and suffering was apart of God's will, where he can select his elect who overcome evil. That is God's plan. God said, when some evil happens, I the Lord Sanctioned it.
When deconstructing i said "God created me like this so he will be fine with me going on this journey of self discovery". It helped at the time but as time went on i slowly let go of that thought too. Who knows, maybe Vishnu is angry at people who are half believers so i went all in on not believing until having evidence to prove it.
@@kaceesnowThis god created an ant farm and the ants, didn't seal the lid, then began burning them with a magnifying glass because they got out and bit him. Sounds like a spoiled bored kid with a childish plan.
@MindShift-Brandon Sadly, the Bible raises more questions than answers. Unfortunately, God doesn't like to be questioned even though his holy word was written on a reading level that many even today can't fully comprehend, much less back then. It's also full of contradictions and bad science.
@mr.c2485 When I was freewill believing Christian, I used to debate with atheists, and I remember one atheist told me, "I would love to believe in your God and believe that he sent his son to die for us and wants me to be in heaven for an eternity, but I need evidence of his existence before I can believe in him. If you present evidence to me, I will believe." At the time, was triggered and angry. Years later, I told him that I'm now an atheist and I apologized for telling him that he'd go to hell for an eternity.
"If God truly wants everyone to be saved and for none to perish, why does he play hide and seek making his existence impossible to empirically prove?" If God truly wants everyone to be saved and for none to perish, why did He create hell to begin with?
The Book of Job is the one that really kicked me in the head and showed me the true nature of this God. He sat back and watched as Satan tormented an innocent man, just so he could win a bet. If I caught anyone torturing my dog I would would be in a rage against that person. I care more for my dog than God cares for his "greatest creation".
"He [God] sat back and watched as Satan tormented an innocent man" It's a little worse than that. God was the one who struck up the conversation with Satan [Job 1: 7] and put Satan up to doing it in the first place.
@@MrJasonwoodrow Greak Gods were not meant to be moral or good there nature. Zeus is rain and lighting is that evil or good no just is, also even in the myths people call Zeus immoral and bad he admits he does bad there not role modals
I think you've gotten at my core reasoning for abandoning Christianity here. We are created against our will, thrown into a game where the stakes are eternal torture if you lose, a game that most people happen to lose, and told that we need this setup to give our lives "meaning and purpose" and that it is fair because we have "free will." I'd rather lose all of those things than face even a 1% chance, let alone a 99% chance of burning in hell forever. I was a traditionalist Catholic where "the fewness of the saved" was always emphasized. We were to live our lives in constant meditation upon the four last things: death, judgment, heaven, hell. Saints would have panic attacks on their death beds terrified of thinking one last mortally sinful thought, unconfessed, before dying - but people like me were also told it would be sinful to worry too much because it means you think God can't or won't forgive you, etc. Few are saved because few are capable of the sort of perfect mental and emotional equilibrium that is apparently required by this sadistic gameshow host of a deity.
You think God is a sadistic gameshow host? Maybe. Life is an interesting game. Isn't it? The Great White Shark. What a perfect death for a surfer. Heroic. Movie-worthy. Sure. It LOOKS sadistic. The shark is just being a shark. The shark is not sadistic. Is it? The shark is into inflicting pain? Is that what you're saying? What is a "shark"? Do you know? I don't. I'm not impressed by sharks. Some people swim with sharks. Some people do stupid shit. Don't they? For the "thrill" of it. To look "death in the face". To "win" against all odds of losing. It's fun. Risking life and limb in pursuit of a thrill. Why do people do it? Do you know? Why? Why grab a gun and go into a school and slaughter innocent children? Do you know? Sharks don't do that. They don't use a weapon. Do they? Man uses weapons. Not animals. ANYTHING can be used as a weapon. A rolled up magazine can be used to kill you. I've seen the movies. It happens all the time. It's THRILLING to WATCH. Death dealing. Some say, "life is sacred". I say, "life is cheap". Life is free. Isn't it? The air? Free? That is all life is, when you think about it, that NEXT breath. Right? The one in your lungs? The breath that you are taking? Right now. Yeah...that one...and the next...and the next.... Catch my drift? Life is effortless. A GIFT that you hardly think about until it is OVER. God gave you the gift. Not your mommy. Not your daddy. God gave you LIFE. Is that not true? Did you hatch out of an egg? How did you get here? And now you insult your Creator, instead of thanking Him? ...why THANK Him?...for the next breath? Is that o.k.? All men are created equal? Do you agree? No? Are you living in this country? Then you agree. If not...leave. Or stay...why do I care what you do or think? Are YOU willing to fight and die for that idea. Others have died for it. A CREATOR is implied. The men who wrote it were not CHRISTIAN. There is only ONE God. If you cannot deal with that then go join a women's garden club. You can discuss religion. Mention the battle for the "holy" land when you get the chance. Women love to talk about real estate. Investments. Money. Clothes. Goofy nonsense. Women will even tell you that there is no God. It's true. Ayn Rand? A cunt. Pure and simple. A chain-smoking bitch. And a pervert. A lizard with a pen. Anyone that tells you there ain't no God is a FOOL. They are everywhere. God is a SUPER-INTELLIGENCE. God CREATED EVERYTHING. Didn't He? All men are equal IDIOTS in the God's eyes. You. Me. And the fool who runs this shit show. Wake the fuck up. Jesus is coming. You can bet your sweet ass he is. Look around. The Bible is just one fucking book. You cannot contain God in a fucking book. That is pure human ARROGANCE. It is STUPIDITY writ large. You read the Bible? And base your "conclusions" accordingly? And you are a "thinker"? Really? How so? Get ready. Put on your big boy boots. MEN ARE REQUIRED. Are you in? If not, save your voice for the women. You can do needle-point with mama. Just kidding. love your enemies. it confuses the ever-lovin' shit out of them... I don't have any enemies. Do I? Are you my "enemy"? ...really...why...because I believe in God? Seriously? vaya con Dios. ...if He exists... ...as if... weak...very weak.
You hit on what to me is the single most egregious injustice god ever commits: 1) Creates us against our will 2) Curses us for an offense we did not commit 3) Punishes us for being cursed I really like the return to a more intimate camera framing in this ep. Thanks Brandon!
Isaiah 33:22 reads, For the LORD is our judge, the LORD is our lawgiver, the LORD is our king; he will save us. According to this verse, God our Creator has the power to give the law and to judge those who break it. We have all broken his law--For all have sinned, and fall short of the glory of God (Romans 3:23). As judge, he has found us guilty and his sentence is death--For the wages of sin is death... (Romans 6:23a). In love, he provided one way for us to escape his judgment; he sent his Son, the Lord Jesus Christ, to suffer for our sins that we might be forgiven through faith in him (see 1 Corinthians 15:3-4, Acts 4:12). Jesus rose from the dead the third day and will freely forgive those who repentantly believe on him as Savior (see John 6:47). In this way, our King will save us. There is no other way to be saved but through the Savior, Jesus Christ, apart from which, people will surely perish: For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life (John 3:16).
Isaiah 33:22 reads, For the LORD is our judge, the LORD is our lawgiver, the LORD is our king; he will save us. As our Creator, God has the power to make the law and to judge those who break it. We all have broken his law--For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God (Romans 3:23). As judge, he has found us guilty and declared our sentence: For the wages of sin is death... (Romans 6:23a). In love, God, made one way for us to be saved from sin and death. He sent his Son, Jesus Christ, who suffered for our sins, died, and rose again the third day that we might be forgiven through faith in him (see 1 Corinthians 15:3-4). Jesus Christ will save those who trust in him as Savior: For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life (John 3:16). In this way, our King will save us! Repent and trust in Jesus Christ!
Isaiah 33:22 reads, For the LORD is our judge, the LORD is our lawgiver, the LORD is our king; he will save us. God has the power to make the law and to judge lawbreakers. We all have broken his law--For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God (Romans 3:23). As judge, he has found us guilty and declared our sentence: For the wages of sin is death... (Romans 6:23a). In love, God, made one way for us to be saved from sin and death. He sent his Son, Jesus Christ, who suffered for our sins, died, and rose again the third day that we might be forgiven through faith in him (see 1 Corinthians 15:3-4). Jesus Christ will save those who trust in him as Savior: For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life (John 3:16). In this way, our King will save us! Repent and trust in Jesus Christ!
I was told just that by my Baptist preacher. I asked him about a little 12 year old girl who belonged to a family that did not believe in doctors or hospitals. They insisted on praying over her and said God would heal her. Well, God wasn't healing her. She got sicker and sicker until one day she begged one of the women who had been left to sit her to take to the hospital. The woman refused and the little girl died. I asked the preacher what happens to her soul and he told me she would go to hell. Once I overcame my shock, I asked him why. He said she was 12 and that is the age of which she is capable of making decisions for herself. He said, when she chose to decide to defy her parents and therefore defy God, she let evil into her life and God no longer had any mercy for her. Needless to say I left that church and haven't set foot in one since. It took me another 30 years to deconstruct from the brain washing I had received at the hands of church doctrine and Christianity.
A friend of mine committed suicide. It broke my heart for his parents. Another friend told me "it's so sad he's in hell!" Christianity is really not for me.
I don't think you deconstructed properly, friend. The name "6Lucifer6Satan6" still shows a dependence on Christian dogma. You just flipped it, and now act like Satan is God, and God is Satan. But still are clinging to this notion of being in s "chosen" people guven "secret knowledge" waiting "to be saved". Satanic temples are still Christian nonsense, and deeper Satanic occultist dogma is still preaching The Bible. You just gotta "read it more closely", "think a certain way", and "use metaphors". Exactly like the mainstream Christians. It's no mistake, you're still getting sold a lie. Still, who am I to criticize what comfort food delulu people wish to cling to, 🤷♀️. I just needed to get that off Mmy chest. I am sorry. Satanists are often vastly more annoying than Christians in their Self-Assured nonsensical view of the world. At least Christians don't regularly stalk and bully people with their thought-terminating cliche bullshit, you know? Take it easy dude. Sorry if I insulted you, but I shall still be happy if you get a clue as to how stupid religion is.
It's taken me 20 years to deconvert, but only after a few months of doubting, after I'd read some of the bible. I've deconverted tonight, because it's evidently clear how hypocritical and evil God is, putting generational curses on us and then punishing us for having the curses. I'm glad I'm done believing this utter nonsense.
There are churches like that. I've been in too many that were less or more like that. Just Pharisees by another name. They can talk. But they are full of lies and arrogance.
When I was growing up in the 70's I went to Mass on Sunday with my Dad and siblings. My father was very devout at the time. Years later shortly before he died he told me, "I would like to think that when I die I will see my parents again but I think when you die that's it." I admire my dad for stating what he thought was the case at a time when it would have been much easier to retreat into the religious conservatism he was raised to believe. What kind of "just" God would punish my father simply for his honesty?
Ad. " get more excited for Secular Bible Study than I ever did going to church." -- Bible has an explanation for it: " 3 For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear." 2Tim 4,3 Apparently we are reaching that point and Biblical prediction comes true.
@@cristagalli8684 What an anti-logical fallacy: “Humor and ridicule can be extremely effective ploys when one is arguing in front of audience, often derailing a superior argument. But as Graham Green’s Monsignor Quixote reminds us, “Laughter is not an argument. It can be stupid abuse.”
@stefansevcik1877 I'm laughing because I've heard this all before. Your attempts to try and justify why people nowadays would take issues with your religion is honestly just sad, especially when you use scripture to try and explain why, and not dig deep enough and try to open your mind to other possible explanations. I'm not going to argue with you because it's pointless, and you'll likely not change your mind, so I leave you with only a chuckle.
An all loving, all powerful god. Then why am I an atheist? If he doesn't want to convince me, then he's not all loving. If he can't convince me, then he's not all powerful.
@ButConsiderThis besides, I cannot run the 100 m in 9.02 seconds. Although, I want to. The g0d, whatever the g0d even is, already gives 0 fukk about my free will.
'freewill', or 'you secretly believe in god, look at the trees'. or 'you just wanna sin' and so on... it gets tiring, and they won't acknowledge our refutations, ever. it's the rare theist that deconverts, alas.
I know right, and the extra ironic part is that there's multiple points in the bible where he supposedly overrides it anyways by making people (particularly groups) attack others. Christian's don't seem to understand that just the simple act of pushing a nation to war is already fucking with their free will.@ButConsiderThis
Happy Sunday Brandon! I am 65 and have read the Bible 3 times but I don't know half of what you know about the Bible. This is why I enjoy your channel so much. ☀️
@MindShift-Brandon by the way, my impression of Unitarian Universalists after attending their church a few times is that they don't even care about being biblical anymore! They mostly meditated, read inspirational thoughts and poetry from any source they pleased, and discussed social justice issues. I even met an atheist who regularly showed up for food and discussion at the end, and he had several friends there!
This is the exact problem that made me start questioning religion. Why do people that never had a chance to hear about God go to hell, meanwhile some terrible people will watch all of that from heaven because they were born in the right time. There are so many factors that determine whether a person is religious or not, the family you're in, your life circumstances, etc. The church people tried to gaslight me with general revelation to try and justify that everyone has a shot in heaven, and if that were the case (which is not), they would definitely have completely different opportunities, and after I pointed that out they just dismissed me and told me to stop questioning God. So much for a fair and loving God.
How do you know that people who never had a chance to hear about God go to hell? We were all born with a conscience therefore if we do something wrong our conscience will convict us. So even if someone never heard the gospel they are guided by their conscience.
ok explanation: God is just. He will not send somebody to hell if they have never heard of Him. If somebody hears of Jesus but doesn’t believe, then it depends. If they just hear his name once then never again, that person has heard but is uninformed. God is just and will judge them according to what they knew.
Only unfortunate part is that the way the bible frames it, anybody who doesn't specifically put 100% of their trust in an entity they can't seemingly physically interact with would be tossed into hell. It's like the moment you hear about him, that's when they go "oop, you've signed the contract, better bow or face annihilation".@@ruvv_6464
@@ruvv_6464 Then isn't evangelism one of the worst things a Christian can do? Why do missions exist under this model? If someone has a 0% chance of being eternally tortured and you do something to raise it, that's beyond cruel.
My 40+ year gambling addiction has cost me my family, friends, reputation, etc. I’ve lied, cheated, stolen, deceived, inflicted pain, caused suffering, accused, etc.etc. Then, one day last week, I hit the powerball for 12.5 million! I think I’m a big winner??? 🤨🤔😵💫🥴
I'm sorry, but if I entered heaven and was greeted by a serial killer who just happened to ask god for forgiveness before he died, that's a sure indicator a model of goodness is broken.
Ted Bundy is an example I like to throw out - supposedly he repented and believed right before his execution. Does he waltz into heaven? And are some of his victims permanently "lost?"
id hate for even serial killers to go to hell sure it sucks that they did horrible things but even with that hell is just so horrible I cant really want that for them with my current mind
I recently gave up on my search of Christianity as the truth, and I spent about 2 years doing as best as I could to make it make sense, but I couldn't in the end. I sometimes grieve that time spent on what now looks like a mission that was doomed from the beginning, but I'm happy channels like yours exist. You are giving people more free time to live their life, instead of losing it to fruitless pursuits. I think this is the most valuable part of your channel really, you are helping people value their most valuable resource. Much love from Colombia ❤
@@jdevlin1910 That is true. And I did learn a lot on the way here, but it's crazy to think how much time was invested into trying to find something that should be self-evident
There's a story by Ursula K Le Guin called "The Ones Who Walk Away from Omelas." It describes a beautiful, utopian city full of healthy, happy people living lives of abundance and joy and peace, with beautiful art, magnificent festivals, and brilliant technology. With one catch. Locked away in a dark basement, subsisting on meager gruel, sitting naked in their own filth, is a child. They beg to be let out... but if they were, if even one kind word were spoken to the child, all the happiness and prosperity of Omelas would end. For those are the terms. Everyone knows this. Nobody likes it at first when they learn. But most accept it eventually, and make all manner of justifications for it. Save for a few. And they are the ones who walk away. This story has always reminded me of the ideas of Heaven and Hell I was taught. Heaven is supposed to be a great and glorious place, and the versions I was taught stressed that every good thing about life would be there (except maybe sex), at least once "heaven" extends to "the New Earth". Nature. Exploration. Art. Music. Games. Relationships. Fulfilling careers. Feasting. Dancing. And, of course, the imminent presence and glory of God, worshipping before his throne. There's just one catch. But rather than just one single neglected child, it's _the majority of humanity_ suffering eternally in the locked basement boiler room of the cosmos. No tri-omni God could allow this. And I could never lovingly serve or worship the kind of God who would.
"God doesn't send you to hell. You send yourself to hell." Which means there is a mechanism that God has no control over, that judges you independent of God for somehow *choosing* not to believe in God's existence with zero evidence, and then sends you to hell. Which means that either God is not omnipotent, or he chooses to not have control over that mechanism, which essentially makes him indeed send you to hell for not pretending to believe in him. Or, God doesn't send you to hell for not believing in him, and he should be ignored in favor of secular humanism until he stops using representatives and shows up himself (and explains himself for advocating for slavery). Another great video.
God can do anything and choose to do anything. Fortunately He is Holy and Merciful. What He has chosen to do is on the appointed day separate Himself from those who rejected Him and chose their flesh instead. To be with Him is paradise. The current fallen world is our test of faith and obedience. Love your Father or rebel?
@@BethJehovahInteresting. You are responding to a comment about hell without even mentioning the word "hell". Could it be an indication of cognitive dissonance on your part between the concept of an all-loving god and the concept of hell? Try again. This time, try not to dodge the issue, and address the concept of hell.
@@BethJehovah "No one is cast off from the Lord forever." Lam 3:31 Anyone who rejects an all-good God isn't making a free will decision. Why would God exile someone who makes the wrong decision based on bad information?
If the general understanding of Christians is to be accepted, that God judges his fallible creations so harshly that they need to accept his mercy and praise him in order to avoid eternal torment, that would be horrible. The real problem is that this God doesn't reveal himself to humanity in a way that is obvious to all. Thus the vast majority of them have to take it on faith that God exists, has a plan and expects them to do certain things to avoid eternal torture. This is unbelievably horrible.
Questioning that which has been deemed to be unquestionable is so much fun. God doesn't like to be put to the test because he can't perform because he doesn't exist. As Thomas Westbrook said, "Be curious, but don't drink the kool-aid." Thanks again for the content you make.
But if you have already swallowed the koolaid, there is hope for recovery by renewing your mind with honesty & videos from champions of reality like this one. I drank the koolaid, but have been cleansing it out of my system for the last decade.
Jesus really shot himself in the foot when he said “anything you ask for in my name shall surely be given to you”. The ultimate test of falsifiability.
"I regret that I have made them." This is one of the most horrible things human parents can say to their kids. Selfish, hateful, devastating to hear that the one who gave you life wishes they hadn't.
@maggienewton8518 "I'll drown all my children except for the one good son and his family." Sounds like the idea of a filicidal maniac rather than a loving creator. And he didn't stop there. He annihilated his offspring in Sodom and Gomorrah because they were so wicked and out of control, but spared the one good son.
@@LifeStrike2030Maybe I'm misunderstanding you but I don't agree. Having the person who brought you into the world saying such things only reinforces your regret, makes you feel like you are not only of no value but a negative. Empathy building, yes, because you understand the pain of others who are reviled unfairly, but comforting, relieving? I don't see it. If someone regrets being born, it would be best if they get help and come to understand the value of life, how incredibly precious it is, and that they can be designers of their own lives, change what it is that makes them so unhappy. But again, maybe I misunderstand you here.
@@maggienewton8518 I have been raped repeatedly from the age of 4 through high school. That kind of trauma cannot be healed. So I regret being born. It’s not my fault, and I’ve come to understand that, but it is my problem, and it can’t be fixed. Life is a bad deal for lots of people. And many of us want to leave. In that state, hearing that your parents understand they failed, understand they could not have done better, and therefore understand that life was just a mistake is incredibly comforting.
@@LifeStrike2030I am so very sorry. I cannot say anything, this is a terrible burden for you to bear. No words from me could ever be adequate or fair. Thank you for your courage.
When I was still a young Christian, I actually asked someone in my congregation if the biblical perspective wasn't that actually the devil was winning in the end. Their response: - No, because the devil will be destroyed. - Yes, but he will have dragged down a majority of people to hell. If God doesn't want anyone to perish, and still so many do, doesn't that mean that the devil succeeded in overcoming god's will? - No, because those people rejecting God will cause God not to want to save them anymore, and so everything will turn out according to God's will after all. - But didn't then the devil cause God to abandon his original will, meaning that he still won him over? I'm still waiting for a logical answer to this day. I think, back in the day, the answer was: "There must be some error in reasoning there, but I can't find it now."
I can’t tell you how many nights I didn’t go to sleep because I didn’t know how to be “saved” when I was a kid. I’m 34 now, and just recently I found out most of my siblings experienced something similar. Pretty lame.
@@GameTimeWhy I definitely have. I started deconstructing about 2 years ago. Most of my siblings aren’t religious(there’s 9 of us). My oldest sister still is for sure, but everyone else is just indifferent. We’re all doing ok. Thank you for asking.
There’s a saying that people have said to me. “Religion doesn’t ask questions”. That’s so true 😟. Once you ask questions, you are automatically a heathen and seen as a sinner😟.
Hope you are having a nice weekend. Awesome video like always. When you said about the bibe, if we do not love him we are against him, we are his enemy. But we are supposed to love our enemies, damn! So true. It is irreconcilable! Sending you and your family love my friend.
Thank you for raising this topic. t has always troubled me that god almighty declares that we should love our enemies, meanwhile he tortures his in hell for all eternity (Except the devil who was given free reign to run riot). It still makes no sense. Apologists make my concerns worse by dancing around the question. Utterly pathetic.
Hi Brandon, Oh, this video is amazing! (just as all of your videos are!) But in this video I realized even more, how open and freely you speak. Although I am an atheist for about a year now, I still have problems to actually speak things out loud, like: "God lost!". But let's face it, it's obviously so, as you just beautifully and logically explained. Although this topic was not new for me, I had a lot of new thoughts while listening to you. I love that you speak so clearly! Very calm, with explanations why you think so. I notice, how I get better to speak openly too. (This week we will have family reunion and they are all Christians, and I fear the topic of me being an atheist will come up...) it feels so liberating to just say out loud, what has been suppressed for so long. I learn so much from you. Especially to stay calm during conversations with Christians :) Brandon, you really change lives for the better. Very good work!
Nobody asked to exist. I choose to pursue humanism with my existence now. It makes the most sense with what little existence I've been given. I try deliberately not to be insufferable to others as a baseline behavior.
Brilliant!!!!!!! I know I am probably alone here but I feel the same for the poor animals .for me if even one suffered it was not worth creating this whole thing
It's crazy how many of your videos are exactly what I had been thinking for years when I was still Catholic. I'm glad to see I'm not alone! I recently deconverted and am now Agnostic, and people like you, Alex O'Connor, Genetically Modified Skeptic, Rationality Rules, and Paulogia have helped me deprogram myself a lot. Thank you!
It's crazy how many of your videos are exactly what I had been thinking (and having extreme difficulty in reconciling) for years when I was a devout southern baptist! I'm glad to see I am not alone either.
Reminds me of a thought experiment I read a while back: -Would you choose to go live in a perfect utopia - one where immortality is granted, where suffering is gone, where useless pain is eradicated, where pleasure and growth of both mind and body is inexhaustible - if you knew the one catch? The one catch is that, in the center, deep within the foundations, there is a young child kept alive and tortured forever, to facilitate this utopia of billions. It you try to save the child, the utopia will collapse in an ecstasy of destruction. So the question is: is utopia of any kind or size **worth** the necessary suffering of even one being?
The one thing different between this and Christianity. Is that in this story, it is a set rule that you can only pick one out of both options, but this should not be the case for the so-called omnipotent God. If he is so powerful, he should be able to make it that you can save the kid without sacrificing the joy of others. So even if your answer for this thought experiment is that it is worth it for one child to suffer for the happiness of billions, it still makes no sense for the case of Christianity, which makes the whole thing worse.
I think there's a passage that says we are to obey our leaders because God puts those leaders where they are.....then I see certain countries around the world with these megomaniacal leaders and I'm chilled to my core.
Even if one took 50.01% saved as “victory”, it’s still a sad outcome. One of the first struggles with my faith was trying to accept that 1/3 of souls were lost even before coming to Earth. It didn’t seem fair or loving when looking at an eternal outcome. I could never create anything knowing I would have to condemn 1/3 before time even began.
If we talk about christianity it's more likely 2/3.There are many religious people but only small part of them are christians and only one denomination can be true.The rest are going to hell.
What if it's all the inverse of eveything that we're taught? What if the Christian Sheep become perpetual sacrifices, brothers and sisters in Christ, acceptable sacrifices to God.
I hear the pain and sorrow in your voice, Brandon - and it’s visceral for you, as a father and husband The story of Job has always, always bothered me - believers will rush to the end, saying that God spoke to Job and restored health and family to him - so we’re to believe that Job felt no sorrow, loss or grief over the family that he had before God permitted Satan to kill them? Every account I’ve ever read of parents who’ve lost a baby and subsequently had another child don’t think their “rainbow baby” completely takes the pain of the first loss away Thanks for your continuing thoughtful presentations - continued health and safety be with you and your family!
@@imjustsayingthough2261And why not restore his original children, instead of new ones. I don't care if it was twice, or thrice the number. Since we were lead to believe god was all-powerful, why not? Just a command, right? After all, in just a few words, everything popped into existence.
I don't know what it says in the original Hebrew, but I have heard interpretations that claim that "restored" meant that God brought them back to life...certainly a modern retelling of the story would include that. One of the big issues here, and with religion as a whole, is that these stories are coming from an essentially "alien" civilization, and our cultural values have shifted significantly since then. For ex, for most of human history, infant mortality was so high that families not only had far more children than they tend to today, but when they inevitably lost some, it was considered ok to "replace" them by just having another child. Today we know that each child is unique and special, and having another won't make that pain go away, but that was the common wisdom back then. So, this story may well make more sense for its original audience than it does to us, along with all the other questions Brandon raises and we debate in the comments. Frankly, we've outgrown the Bible and need to either seriously update it, or just abandon it completely...
I like this perspective. It really brings to mind the ultimate narcissism of the god of the Bible... Why make a creation anyway? On top of being omniscient, he knew the loss and pain that was going to happen. I can only believe that "god" is a manifestation of human beings controlling the masses with fear and rewards you by being obedient. "To love me is to obey me". Dictatorship 101. Abusive father 101. I actually see the OT god as a serial killer.
"WHY make a creation anyway?" EXACTLY. Why does an all powerful, all knowing, all glorious King of EVERYTHING need mere humans to worship it? I am still waiting for Christians to answer this simple question.
Except it's a plot twist that the writers did a shitty job hiding. It would be like the French guy in the mockbuster "What's Up: Balloon to the Rescue" saying out loud, repeatedly, in front of all the main characters, that he wants to take over the world and then the main characters being surprised when they discover he wants to take over the world.
Calvinists be like: But seriously, die-hard calvinists think it is okay because the "everyone" are only the elects and everyone else is "vase of dishonour" and their deaths/suffering is to glorify God
The question I often have is if human beings aren't animals as believers often claim why do they treat non believers like they are no better than animals if they either don't want to believe or they are former believers that have chosen a life of autonomy away from religion? What makes them think their dehumanizing apologetic filth would make anyone in their right mind want to crawl back to the faith after learning things like you teach on your channel? Just me rambling again. Good video brandon. I feel like I repeat myself sometimes but I'll try to come up with better points in the future.
I went to church today as my pastor talked about how depressed young people were and how other religions can't give hope but only Christianity and Jesus Christ and he talked about a story from the Bible about how a woman washed and kissed Jesus feet with her tears, I found that story to be emotionally manipulative and even disgusting but that's just me (I go to church cause it's my families choice)
hang tough there. Soon, you'll be old enough. Then you can choose not to waste your time in churches. Now, 1 important piece of advice here to prevent trouble: unless you can start a life of your own financially, please, keep playing religi0n. Go to church, the whole 9 yards! yes, sadly, it is a dishonest strategy. I know. But it is way better then sleeping under the bridge. By the way, religi0n is dishonest, too. That might help. Stay safe.
2000 year old stories which might have resonated with a dead culture become more like a mill stone around the neck of Christianity. They sink like stone in water.
The concept that God gave satan dominion over the earth always buffled me. In the bible it seems like God uses satan and his evil for his own purposes, like when he let satan into the garden of eden to SUCCESSFULLY tempt Adam and Eve
Most of "Satan's" appearances in the Old Testament depict a being that is not God's enemy. He acts like an agent that follows God's orders to do "evil" things.
So from the sounds of it, god basically got super bored and went out of his way to create a world, then instigate conflict on it. Kinda makes sense in retrospect, as it gives him something to do, almost like a weird divine game of sorts where he appointed another creation (satan) to be an opponent. Giving him dominion over the earth is probably the only way it could've been a fair competition at that, considering the power gap. Of course, I don't really believe he's a real entity and such, but that just sounds like the most plausible (and maybe geekiest) reason if it ever was a thing.@@omarcarpentiero
Thank you for another wonderful video Brandon. I came to the same conclusion during my deconstruction. Unless you're a Universalist Christian, it's hard to rationalize any other conclusion than that the Christian God has lost control of its own creation and is now just salvaging some scraps. That's why I often comment and just that the the only 'omni' the Christian God possesses is omni-incompetence. Once again thank you for the content that you put out. As someone living in the deep red state of Nebraska and having to put up with constant slander and disparagement of non-christians, (and especially atheists!) It is cathartic and quite frankly, comforting to hear from similarly minded individuals, and especially those who came out of deeply religious backgrounds.
_"You want to control people? Tell them a messiah will come. They’ll wait for centuries.”_ Chani, Dune Part Two Chani’s statement reflects a critical perspective on the manipulation of religious beliefs and messianic figures as tools for controlling populations and consolidating power. It underscores the potential for exploitation inherent in such narratives within religious and political contexts.
I learned to bury my ego more as I got older. This helped with reasoning and helped me rely less on blind faith or luck where there was none. Fact-finding and logic can be as satisfying as they are frustrating, but it's worth their pursuit in the long-run.
@@Johnmhatheist Yes, there are so many aspects to talk about regarding this topic and how it affects the world today, I think he will continue to grow. Skillwise he's one of the best, especially coming from a former Christian, close to the Bible, perspective which appeals even to Christians that might want to understand arguments they would encounter from the other side while 'witnessing'. I do see it's easier for the Christian apologists to reach millions of views just bc they have a wider audience in the US, but I also feel like there has been a void in this space since the fading of the four horsemen.
The problem with arguing religion is that such arguments can never be resolved. Everyone already has all the available information incorporated into their position and because no new information is coming, there's no way to confirm or falsify any opinion.
"...there's no way to confirm or falsify any opinion." until religi0ns say something magical. Which they ALL do. For example a bolt from Zeus, or g0d knitting us in the womb. Then it is often easy to falsify religi0us claims. And then we have fast and cheap ways to communicate that. The info about falsified claims can land in every pocket in the first world within seconds, IF somebody cares enough to ask. And some people do. That's why we become less and less religi0us.
MindShift has thoughts many people have not thought of though. A different perspective. Once I learned about narcissism and toxic relationships, my eyes were opened.
@@blueStarKitt7924 I didn't say the good guys didn't win. We have to keep on keeping on. It's just that we need to know that the bad guys do win sometimes. Sometimes they win a lot. But then the good guys win and they/we win a lot
Brandon, very revealing and instructive. This only furthers an idea that religion is less about theology and more about fellowship, networking, socializing and community. Many times I have heard, "Well, at least you Believe in Something", that Something could be a theology that is divergent from the speakers, but "Going to Church" trumps theology differences.
I was just looking at antinatalism, so this made me realize that if eternal torment is on the table at all, as even a _remote_ possibility, antinatalism would probably be the only right thing. It would solve the "continuing vs starting a life" distinction as well, since opting out of life early is a 1-way ticket to eternal torment; it would suck enough that we all have to deal with this unwinnable Pascalian wager, we certainly wouldn't want to be bringing anyone else into it. & of course a good God wouldn't want to create anyone either. He doesn't even need to know what _will_ happen, he just needs to know the risks. _If the risk be so great, you must not create!_ 6:06 The king having to fight another kingdom reminds me of the "it's better for God to triumph over evil than to disallow it in the first place" theodicy. By that logic, it would be better if the king _had_ engineered the situation where the other kingdom attacks, rather than maintaining peaceful relations.
Putting the detailed scriptural locations on the screen is much appreciated ! Yet another great rebuttal to accepting the ancient anthology as a world framework !! One recommendation "Keep thinking" seems like a good but weak signature ending. "Live your life." has been taken. After these mic dropping presentations, perhaps end with a little more profundity that matches the power of the excellent work done !
Appreciate all that and glad you liked the sources in screen. Im open to a better ending but honestly i do love the simple suggestion. It’s kinda the theme of the whole channel. To have a mind shift requires one not to turn it off and thats what so much of religion does.
@@MindShift-Brandon You are awesome Brandon and your work is very very important. The hope is to help, not just by watching, commenting and recommending, but to perhaps provide that sparkle to get more views. Best of regards.
Happy sunday, judging by the description, this was one of the problems that personally drove me to universalism. If God created souls that he knew would end up in hell or anahilated, that means God failed to save everyone, something that falls short of a supreme, loving God
I have a universalism clause just for you lol. Jk. But moving to that conclusion to avoid this conclusion isnt a real answer imo. I’ll make my case against universalism in a soon coming video though.
Yeah i never understood Christians comparing the god they define against a human parent. No matter how terrible your child is, do they deserve eternal torture? If you are all powerful/knowing/loving and they are still able to Fall then should you be punished for letting them?
The very concept of “I desire everyone to be saved” is what caused me to deconstruct. I kept running into walls. My last leg was “what about those who never heard the gospel?” If they can be saved through nature, then why did Jesus come? If people who were merely ignorant or not at the fictional age of accountability automatically go to heaven, then evangelism is counterproductive and we shouldn’t do it. When I allowed myself the freedom to challenge God on this, it was obviously contradictory to his Omni characteristics. Either he’s lacking Omni characteristics or he’s lying when he says he desires everyone to be saved. Both work against him heavily. If he wanted everyone to be saved, he would’ve made it so…or he’s not capable of making a world where that’s possible and is lying about his power/capabilities as if he is. Then you look at the scholarship of New Testament letters only to find that we don’t know who wrote most of them and the time period in which they’re written is too late. It becomes reasonable to conclude that the only reason that verse in Peter exists is bc people were starting to die and Christ hadn’t come yet, so the writer had to make up something to comfort the people, and the church in later centuries meticulously crafted the Bible with books and verses that would keep people in the faith. Your video on the age of accountability is probably my favorite one bc it just affirmed things I already knew and was ignoring. It was the most persuasive video for me tbh. It details out in clear language how f’d up the realities behind the concept of salvation actually is
@@MindShift-Brandon I think it’s makes sense to reiterate those concepts when they’re relevant. They all connect to the atrocities of this belief system and are probably the most powerful concepts that believers use to delude themselves whenever they have to think about the fairness of salvation
That was one of the first thoughts and realizations that I came to that got me started down the road of deconversion many years ago, that if everything in the Bible is true then the devil wins and god loses in the end.
If I was still a Christian I would argue that a similar analogy was used by Jesus describing his 100 sheep where 99 are left behind in order to find that one lost sheep, supposedly not wanting even one to perish, but being of sound mind and body, I now realize that this good shepherd analogy is about leading the sheep to slaughter by means of the narrow gate, where the livestock is forced to move straight ahead and cannot turn around and run back to the green pastures from whence they came. This is the true difference between the wide and narrow gates.
Not all pastures are green. Some are VERY far from it. Further than you'd imagine. If that weren't the case, shepherds would have no purpose. This is very true in the spiritual world. We got a lot of people who are in some very non-green pastures where they're addicted to a substance or two. They definitely need a shepherd. The question is, which shepherd do they need?
@@reginacb79 I'm thankful for your work, and I agree that a religious experience may not help everyone get off of drugs, but what about some of the many who credit their delivery from drugs to a divine experience? You act like such people don't exist, or if they do, they were unsuccessful, or that they were better off being dirty than clean. As bad as drugs are, there's no way every person who turned to religion afterward was better off before. Perhaps a few were, but all? NO WAY. I can tell you right now if I left my religion for drugs, my family would be DEEPLY harmed and wouldn't consider my choice to be wise. Of course I'm not much of a religious addict. I'm not very active in my church.
@@theboombody I apologize for the confusion, when I mentioned green pastures, I was simply referring to the psalm where the sheep are made to lay down in green pastures, however the rod and staff that "comfort" you, are only doing their job, until you're fat enough for the slaughter house, then the true nature of the shepherd is revealed as you are forced into that narrow gate of deception.
@@Grayraven777 Well there definitely are a lot of false preachers out there whose intent is really to deceive for their personal gain. You're right about that. Whether ALL religion fits that bill, who knows. I don't believe that to be the case, although I'll never be able to prove it. I definitely believe that nature has some sort of intent in it that's beyond human intent.
A good, able god would not have had to punish evil if he could have prevented it. After all, is that not what heaven will be? A place devoid of evil, and where its inhabitants have free will? Why didn't he do this on earth already?
If you take Christian mythology at face value, there *was* sin in Heaven and Lucifer led a full-on rebellion there (before being cast down into Hell, taking Lilith as a bride and siring Charlie Morningstar - or at least that’s how things go in The Gospel according to Vivziepop…). So, if it already happened once there’s no reason to believe that sin can’t manifest in Heaven and spark rebellion again…
I had, and still have, a lot of the same problems with Christianity and Islam because God always comes off us a negligent, hypocritical, vindictive, manipulative, absent, abusive, toxic parent who behaves arbitrarily and keeps his message vague on purpose to screw with us. I always felt we were more like the toys that ended up on Sid's side of the fence in Toy Story. It would have made more sense for God to not just be written, but to be preached, as someone with flaws that needs our help to triumph over evil, as opposed to just forcing us to pick sides and look on from the sidelines. I have to laugh at all these so-called spiritual warriors; if God is already supposed to win at the end and he knows it, what does he need puny, human soldiers for? It's a zero sum shell game.
Or….he could simply take on the eternal suffering for himself while we all enjoy a heaven. Oh, that’s right, he claims he already did that. It didn’t work….
@@mr.c2485 He created angels and that didn't work, he created 2 humans and that didn't work, he killed essentially everyone on earth and that didn't work, he constantly tortured and killed his own chosen people to keep them in line and that didn't work, and he supposedly sacrificed himself to undo his mistakes and apparently that didn't work either. This deity is a loser. Lol
@@theboombody Then why didn't hell always exist? According to the now severely edited and manipulated Bible, at one point only heaven existed. So theoretically, only good existed. Then, Yahweh screwed it all up. Sheol used to be the place everyone went after death. Kinda like how everyone went to Hades in Greek mythology. It was a place to have your soul cleansed so you could be reborn. The process is painful, however. How evil you were in life would determine how long you had you to stay to cleanse the evil from you. Under this system, a baby who died shortly after birth wouldn't need to get cleansed and could be reborn right away. And people like Jaffrey Dahmer would have to stay for quite a while. That is a FAR more fair system than eternal suffering just because you didn't worship in fear to the correct sky daddy. Yahweh's system is unfair and is therefore evil.
Was it any wonder that the Scriptures were inaccessible to believers for centuries, to whom they had the rely on the Church to share and interpret them? Nowadays with the Bible available to any literate person, the Church relies on their believers to not read it or to not try to understand it in its entirety.
If god were real, he'd be to blame for me not believing. He would have created the standard by which i can be convinced and then failed to meet that standard.
You say it is “unjustifiable to create creatures against their will,” I agree wholeheartedly. But you unapologetically have brought children into this world.
Here's a new one for me: I brought up the parent analogy with an evangelical. As a father, nothing could bring me to banish my child to an eternity of torture. Their answer? Well, if they didn't accept Jesus, they aren't God's children, so that doesn't count. I cannot understand the lack of empathy.
"I cannot understand the lack of empathy." I can. Hateful indoctrination (for the honest bigots) pure bullsh!t (if they are just pretending) sunk cost fallacy, if they are real jesus fans knowing that they cannot win any debate without special pleading.
The Bible doesn't really emphasize eternal suffering very much. It definitely emphasizes that suffering is a consequence of sin. But I don't think it mentions very often that sin is a web that there's no way to get out of. Or that the timeline of accepting Jesus MUST be before you die. It does say that there is a point where it may be too late, but doesn't specify exactly when that is.
@@theboombody It does, unless you try to soften it to say Hell is just an eternity of separation from God. If that is your definition, what does separation from God look like?
Great points. And you don’t actually need to think that hard on it. We were already in blissful oblivion before birth, God placed our souls into random embryos against our will, we are charged with working against the common sense that God gave us to have faith in imperceptible magic, if not we MUST suffer eternal damnation and torture - according to Christianity. Makes zero sense
As a pastor’s child of a Pentecostal church, words do not express how much your videos provide comfort to me. I’ve been watching your videos for at least two almost three months now but have been afraid to comment because it makes what I’m going through more real. My entire family is heavily religious and I’ve played a big part in my church as I am the worship leader. To make a long story short, I feel like a fake now. It’s weird for me to lead worship and sing knowing that I’ve stopped believing. The only person who knows is my husband and he’s not particularly thrilled I’m losing my faith. He went through a doubt of faith a few years ago and unfortunately I freaked out on him due to my indoctrination and fear of being unequally yoked smh. I think he feels it would be more trouble than it’s worth for me to make this a thing with my family, and because we are trying to have children now he wants them to be raised in a more progressive church that teaches good morals and for our kids to have a good community without us becoming the black sheep of our family. The plan is to eventually leave my parents pentecostal church once our child is about 5, which that will be hell on earth for me because my dad thinks leaving his church is like rejecting him. But i also am starting to feel uneasy in church in general. I try my hardest not to roll my eyes when certain topics are preached like the “ram in the bush” etc. The only thing that still bothers me is the “gift of the Holy Ghost” I’ve spoken in tongues several times since i was a child, and it’s heavily practiced in my church. I’m not sure what to make of it anymore. It’s the only time I’ve felt a supernatural connection to God, but nothing else makes sense. I would absolutely love to hear your thoughts on speaking in tongues. Btw thanks for all the work you do!
I 100% get where you are and understand each angle! Its such a tough spot to be in. My tipping point, was do i want my children to also be in this tough spot someday when they figure out its not true or should i be the one to deal with the fallout now and make their path easier. Thats what helped me. I will get to a video on tongues. Long story short is our brain is capable of a lot of id encourage you to read godless by dan barker who was also an active worship leader when he finally deconverted. Lastly just a thought, but read back through all the reasons you are wanting to stay or hold on to some form the faith. Not one is because its real. Its just community and feeling and potential fear etc. im not dismissing those things, but i think stepping back and really seeing that is huge.
Thank you for this. I will definitely read the book. It’s such a tough spot to be in that it keeps me up at night. Looking forward to your video about speaking in tongues!
@@HelloYellowShooBlue You are in a tough spot and only you know what is best for you, but do you want your kid in such a place you where the relations are broken up when one no longer believes in unicorns? If people accept one only as long one plays monopoly and believes in the monopoly prison is that a real relationship? You know what is best for you and let no other choose
I don't understand how if the wages of sin are death then how come a God would decide to create a hell. If the punishment is death then just let people die eventually. Why go out of your way to add to the punishment out of spite? There doesn't need to be a second death. It comes off less like the nature of sin just leading to death and more like a petty creator adding more punishment because he is angry.
I have a long argument I make to people, but it basically boils down to: "If Hell really does exist, then God has to be Evil." That's why Hell was the first belief I was easily able to let go of, as it just makes ZERO sense! Also, the idea that Good people are condemned to Hell for not believing, while Evil people CAN make it into Heaven through last-minute belief, makes a mockery of the very concept of Divine Justice! Has it not occurred to folks that this means that many innocent victims of rape and murder may actually have to spend eternity alongside their abusers/killers, and just be ok with it (unless they weren't believers, in which case they are burning eternally, despite being good people in life)?! On top of all THAT, what kind of Heaven can there be when you KNOW people, whether they deserve it or not, are roasting in agony elsewhere? Maybe that's why the constant praise of God has to be endless, if you let it quiet down, you'll hear the distant screams of the damned. But don't complain about it...despite the fact that you made it, God can always let you know that there's always still room for one more down there... (This is why I find the Eastern idea of Bodhisatvas more appealing: The idea that truly Good people just can not allow themselves to sit and enjoy heaven until ALL are saved from hell is FAR more indicative of love, compassion and forgiveness than anything I've heard about in the West.)
Thanks for sharing your thoughts. I had never considered those ideas before. Thanks for opening my mind to even more problems with the god of the Bible.
Buddhism began in India and has almost died out there, but moved to and is very strong in other areas of southeast Asia. Perhaps christian beliefs were more in keeping with the culture of Greece and Rome than the culture of the Middle East, so it took hold with more force in the former and from there spread throughout Europe and then to the areas Europeans colonized. Maybe Islam is more in keeping with the culture of the Middle East, though it has spread to other distant parts of the world.
@@BethJehovah There are still uncontacted tribes in the world so the gospel hasn't been spread to them. And the insularity of the North Sentinelese who would kill people who tried to come ashore their island has guaranteed and will guarantee that the gospel _won't ever_ be preached in every corner of the world.
In my malleable youth, 12 or so, I watched “The Omen” over at a friend’s house on cable. Throughout my childhood, I was certain that god would triumph in the end. After seeing this film (which I wrote off as silly in my adulthood), where people died gruesome deaths if the challenged Satan and there was no sign of god intervening and WORSE, the child who becomes the Antichrist in the story survives, I had a fearful thought: What if , in the end, Evil is the victor? There were two more sequels. In the third, the story hems and haws that god was triumphant. Still I thought: Why didn’t god intervene SOONER? Superman defeated Lex Luthor in record time, but the ultimate force for good in the universe is mute and not present? Again, I grew up and saw the “Omen” movies as schlock, but still the seed in my mind was planted and I couldn’t uproot it. Over time, I concluded god was either impotent or nonexistent. To think I owe part of my voyage to atheism to a horror flick where Leo McKern wanted his named scrubbed out of the credits. “The Omen” wasn’t the main thing that got the ball rolling towards godlessness, but it played its part. Rambling aside, Brandon, you articulated this issue of god’s “defeat” far better than a 12 year old could!
Why all the red tape? God supposedly could have made it "perfect " the first time around. Obviously it was planned this way for God's amusement. There is no God and even if there was he doesn't care about anything but himself.
I'm still waiting for the explanation of how anything, other than what this tri-omni god's desires, will, wants etc, exists at all. Wouldn't everything just be the way that God decided?... wanted? Oh nevermind, its so illogical... ❤❤ Ya Brandon. Great video.
A proper parent is never vindictive nor gleefully tormenting in the discipline of their offspring. Likewise, it is reasonable to espouse that an all-loving diety, who concurrently possesses all of the aforementioned characteristics, should never be vindictive regarding the punishment of its idiomatic children ❤Additionally, an omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent deity would have noooo reason to actively or passively permit genocidal abominations or a single of the other adjects horrors of this world 🌎 as he would any other means by which to bring about his ultimate stratagem.
@@MindShift-BrandonI have been amalgating an essay style commentary regarding the AKtion-T4, the miniature Holocaust that preceded the Final Solution. Reading indepthly about the about the mental and physical anguish experienced by the victms of the Nazi horror show, as well as hearkening to the worst nightmare stories from CPS agents, encapsulates my articulations regarding the absolute unnecessity of the utmost horrors in this world 🌎 under a system ordained by a omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient diety. 😭😟😭
@MindShift-Brandon Hement Mehta, a famous atheistic UA-camr personality and an author of several books, has done a scrupulously encapsulating count up of how many individuals are terminated by Yayweh within the pages of his purported holy word. Let's encourage you to produce a video that has a mirrored nature.
@@MindShift-Brandon Hement Mehta, a famous atheistic UA-camr personality and an author of several books, has done a scrupulously encapsulating count up of how many individuals are terminated by Yayweh within the pages of his purported holy word. Let's encourage you to produce a video that has a mirrored nature. Whose with me?
Another great video! I love your passion. Congrats on your success. You were great on The Line with Matt Dillahunty. I would love to see you do more of that. Wish Matt would have let to talk more, but that's Matt haha.
What really gets me is this: John 1:1-5 states that Jesus actually is God himself. That means Jesus committed all of the atrocities attributed to YHWH in the Old Testament. This notion of Jesus being meek & mild is a load of nonsense. Christianity is spiritual poison.
Justice is people getting what they deserve. Perfect justice is every person getting exactly what they deserve, no more and no less, at all times. If even once any person has gotten less (or more!) than they deserve, then perfect justice has already been falsified and can never be recovered. You can't fix perfect justice once it stops being perfect, all you can do is compensate, and compensation is a substitute for the failure of justice. The Problem of Imperfect Justice is vastly more of an issue than the Problem of Evil, because it could be the case that everyone is compensated and nobody is lost AND YET perfect justice can still have failed, so if a God is supposed to be perfectly just, I already know that God doesn't exist. The only way to argue otherwise is to claim that what we see is in fact perfect justice, that every infant who dies of starvation had it coming and every Wall Street thief who scams millions and walks off scot-free merited his windfall, a position so delusional it can't be taken seriously even as a what if. So either God doesn't exist, or whatever God does exist has no particular interest in operating justly, which makes them impossible to trust; who is to say you won't be betrayed or used and eventually "compensated" for it?. Also, annihilationism in its traditional forms is still monstrous. God BRINGS PEOPLE BACK TO LIFE to murder them again, after judging them and calling them bad people. What kind of petty behavior is that? Just leave them dead if you don't want them around anymore!
Just went over the problem of evil in my philosophy of religion class. I didn't used to think it was that big of a problem for Theism, now its almost as big of a deal to me as divine hiddenness. That said I understand why it isn't a big problem for most Christians (and by extention atheists), and that's because the Bible specifically accounts for the existence of evil. So most Christians, rather than comparing the incompatibility of evil with the idea of a tri-omni God, instead compare the existence of evil against the Bible and then get the idea of a tri-omni God from the Bible. In other words, instead of seeing evil as evidence against a tri-omni God, they see evil as evidence for the truth of the Bible which they see as evidence for a tri-omni God. Thats why your argument in this video is really good. It expresses the problem of evil in terms of the Bible, forcing the Christian to directly compare their idea of God against the existence of eternal suffering. I think too many Christians rationalize victory in terms of whether they personally get to heaven or not, and don't think about it in terms of others. I suspect thats partially resultant of the us vs them mentality thats so doninant in the culture, which diminishes the suffering of people outside their ideology. The Christian can (partially) get around this by appealing to annihilationism, but doing so conflicts with the Bible (in my opinion) so you already need to lack a strong view in the innerrency of scripture. Then your using a more intuitive (and correct) idea of a tri-omni God and then the more general problem of evil starts to become more concerning.
well put, and yes many of these excuses is exactly what lead to these other ideas. Christians who couldnt rationalize it all working together found scriptural basis for annihilation or universalism etc. Thats the problem with a vague book of 800k words that has so many conflicting statements. If you dont like one version, you just say the next is the correct one.
I disagree with the notion that if one soul is lost in hell it’s a loss on Gods part. You study the Bible. You should know Gods ultimate Goal is to create the manifested sons of God the perfect vessels/ birthing of more Jesus like being. The fullness of salvation is not just about going to heaven. God subject the whole universe in corruption so the perfect farm environment can be made to create more Jesus Like beings. These being overcame the satanic nature forced upon them . They overcame the mark. You could it interpreted as they had the mark spiritually sin nature but were beheaded and beat it. Having judgment day why they were alive instead of after they die. They revive the spirit of Christ which some say is different from the Holy Spirit. Okay we know how awesome Jesus is. But now through this sacrifice we can have at the very least 144,000 like him and more likely million potentially billion overcomes who qualifie to give birth to more Jesus like beings with their old ego removed in paradise. The universe as a whole would benefit tremendously from the birth of billions of Jesus like beings when they just had one before. Although not everyone in heaven will be such vessels Some are gold, silver, Bronze. The Apostle Paul labored for Christ to be formed in the Christian’s he raised.
@@MindShift-Brandonthe idea that revelation can be interpreted as a spiritual journey to salvation one experience internally as opposed to some apocalyptic event in the far future came from this brother m.ua-cam.com/video/7Dh3RT8v-bI/v-deo.html. I been in contact with him for many years now. He has claimed to seen hell and Jesus but claims it not eternal. His method of go through hell now why your alive so you can’t go through after death is definitely like an exploit in the system.or was it intentionally designed that way.
Another great one. Look forward to seeing you on Deep Drinks. I watched some of The Hang Up, but Matt yelling at callers gets old for me pretty quick. ;-) He's a brilliant guy but I really appreciate your demeanor. Hope you'll still be doing that call in show someday!
Happy Sunday. Got a shorter but pretty direct video for you all today. Thanks for being here!
Evil never won. Jesus was sacrifice was foreseen or plan before the foundation of the world. Evil and all of this pain and suffering was apart of God's will, where he can select his elect who overcome evil. That is God's plan. God said, when some evil happens, I the Lord Sanctioned it.
If you knew the evil of the people ruling the world, you would wish there was a Hell.
When deconstructing i said "God created me like this so he will be fine with me going on this journey of self discovery". It helped at the time but as time went on i slowly let go of that thought too. Who knows, maybe Vishnu is angry at people who are half believers so i went all in on not believing until having evidence to prove it.
@@kaceesnowThis god created an ant farm and the ants, didn't seal the lid, then began burning them with a magnifying glass because they got out and bit him. Sounds like a spoiled bored kid with a childish plan.
Glad to be here and thanks for another great video 👍
If God truly wants everyone to be saved and for none to perish, why does he play hide and seek making his existence impossible to empirically prove?
Faith! Jk. Thats just the horrible apologetic for you answer that solves nothing.
@MindShift-Brandon Sadly, the Bible raises more questions than answers. Unfortunately, God doesn't like to be questioned even though his holy word was written on a reading level that many even today can't fully comprehend, much less back then. It's also full of contradictions and bad science.
Free will Els, FREE WILL! That’s the definitive Christian answer.
@mr.c2485 When I was freewill believing Christian, I used to debate with atheists, and I remember one atheist told me, "I would love to believe in your God and believe that he sent his son to die for us and wants me to be in heaven for an eternity, but I need evidence of his existence before I can believe in him. If you present evidence to me, I will believe." At the time, was triggered and angry. Years later, I told him that I'm now an atheist and I apologized for telling him that he'd go to hell for an eternity.
"If God truly wants everyone to be saved and for none to perish, why does he play hide and seek making his existence impossible to empirically prove?"
If God truly wants everyone to be saved and for none to perish, why did He create hell to begin with?
The Book of Job is the one that really kicked me in the head and showed me the true nature of this God. He sat back and watched as Satan tormented an innocent man, just so he could win a bet.
If I caught anyone torturing my dog I would would be in a rage against that person. I care more for my dog than God cares for his "greatest creation".
So so very true!
True statement!
"He [God] sat back and watched as Satan tormented an innocent man"
It's a little worse than that. God was the one who struck up the conversation with Satan [Job 1: 7] and put Satan up to doing it in the first place.
@@MrJasonwoodrow Greak Gods were not meant to be moral or good there nature. Zeus is rain and lighting is that evil or good no just is, also even in the myths people call Zeus immoral and bad he admits he does bad there not role modals
But "god is 'no respector of persons'" he loves Satan MUCH more than humanity...it was all mapped out 😅😅
I think you've gotten at my core reasoning for abandoning Christianity here. We are created against our will, thrown into a game where the stakes are eternal torture if you lose, a game that most people happen to lose, and told that we need this setup to give our lives "meaning and purpose" and that it is fair because we have "free will." I'd rather lose all of those things than face even a 1% chance, let alone a 99% chance of burning in hell forever. I was a traditionalist Catholic where "the fewness of the saved" was always emphasized. We were to live our lives in constant meditation upon the four last things: death, judgment, heaven, hell. Saints would have panic attacks on their death beds terrified of thinking one last mortally sinful thought, unconfessed, before dying - but people like me were also told it would be sinful to worry too much because it means you think God can't or won't forgive you, etc. Few are saved because few are capable of the sort of perfect mental and emotional equilibrium that is apparently required by this sadistic gameshow host of a deity.
Loved your addition! Thanks for this excellent comment!
You think God is a sadistic gameshow host?
Maybe. Life is an interesting game. Isn't it?
The Great White Shark. What a perfect death for a surfer. Heroic. Movie-worthy.
Sure. It LOOKS sadistic. The shark is just being a shark. The shark is not sadistic. Is it?
The shark is into inflicting pain? Is that what you're saying? What is a "shark"? Do you know?
I don't. I'm not impressed by sharks. Some people swim with sharks. Some people do stupid shit.
Don't they? For the "thrill" of it. To look "death in the face". To "win" against all odds of losing.
It's fun. Risking life and limb in pursuit of a thrill. Why do people do it? Do you know?
Why? Why grab a gun and go into a school and slaughter innocent children? Do you know?
Sharks don't do that. They don't use a weapon. Do they? Man uses weapons. Not animals.
ANYTHING can be used as a weapon. A rolled up magazine can be used to kill you.
I've seen the movies. It happens all the time. It's THRILLING to WATCH. Death dealing.
Some say, "life is sacred". I say, "life is cheap". Life is free. Isn't it? The air? Free?
That is all life is, when you think about it, that NEXT breath. Right? The one in your lungs?
The breath that you are taking? Right now. Yeah...that one...and the next...and the next....
Catch my drift? Life is effortless. A GIFT that you hardly think about until it is OVER.
God gave you the gift. Not your mommy. Not your daddy. God gave you LIFE.
Is that not true? Did you hatch out of an egg? How did you get here?
And now you insult your Creator, instead of thanking Him?
...why THANK Him?...for the next breath? Is that o.k.?
All men are created equal? Do you agree? No?
Are you living in this country? Then you agree.
If not...leave. Or stay...why do I care what you do or think?
Are YOU willing to fight and die for that idea. Others have died for it.
A CREATOR is implied. The men who wrote it were not CHRISTIAN.
There is only ONE God. If you cannot deal with that then go join a women's garden club.
You can discuss religion. Mention the battle for the "holy" land when you get the chance.
Women love to talk about real estate. Investments. Money. Clothes. Goofy nonsense.
Women will even tell you that there is no God. It's true. Ayn Rand? A cunt.
Pure and simple. A chain-smoking bitch. And a pervert. A lizard with a pen.
Anyone that tells you there ain't no God is a FOOL. They are everywhere.
God is a SUPER-INTELLIGENCE. God CREATED EVERYTHING. Didn't He?
All men are equal IDIOTS in the God's eyes. You. Me. And the fool who runs this shit show.
Wake the fuck up. Jesus is coming. You can bet your sweet ass he is. Look around.
The Bible is just one fucking book. You cannot contain God in a fucking book.
That is pure human ARROGANCE. It is STUPIDITY writ large.
You read the Bible? And base your "conclusions" accordingly?
And you are a "thinker"? Really? How so?
Get ready. Put on your big boy boots.
MEN ARE REQUIRED. Are you in?
If not, save your voice for the women.
You can do needle-point with mama.
Just kidding.
love your enemies.
it confuses the ever-lovin' shit out of them...
I don't have any enemies. Do I? Are you my "enemy"?
...really...why...because I believe in God?
Seriously?
vaya con Dios.
...if He exists...
...as if...
weak...very weak.
I wonder if you really mean what you said. Would you rather not exist?
Did you lose your medication?@@jeffwhatley2634
@@jeffwhatley2634 I think you forgot your meds this morning
You hit on what to me is the single most egregious injustice god ever commits:
1) Creates us against our will
2) Curses us for an offense we did not commit
3) Punishes us for being cursed
I really like the return to a more intimate camera framing in this ep. Thanks Brandon!
Perfectly put, Jon. And thank you!
punishes us for being DECIVED despite wanting TRUTH! (i understand punishing someone who WANTS to be evil but someone TRICKED?!?!)
Isaiah 33:22 reads, For the LORD is our judge, the LORD is our lawgiver, the LORD is our king; he will save us. According to this verse, God our Creator has the power to give the law and to judge those who break it. We have all broken his law--For all have sinned, and fall short of the glory of God (Romans 3:23). As judge, he has found us guilty and his sentence is death--For the wages of sin is death... (Romans 6:23a). In love, he provided one way for us to escape his judgment; he sent his Son, the Lord Jesus Christ, to suffer for our sins that we might be forgiven through faith in him (see 1 Corinthians 15:3-4, Acts 4:12). Jesus rose from the dead the third day and will freely forgive those who repentantly believe on him as Savior (see John 6:47). In this way, our King will save us. There is no other way to be saved but through the Savior, Jesus Christ, apart from which, people will surely perish: For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life (John 3:16).
Isaiah 33:22 reads, For the LORD is our judge, the LORD is our lawgiver, the LORD is our king; he will save us. As our Creator, God has the power to make the law and to judge those who break it. We all have broken his law--For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God (Romans 3:23). As judge, he has found us guilty and declared our sentence: For the wages of sin is death... (Romans 6:23a). In love, God, made one way for us to be saved from sin and death. He sent his Son, Jesus Christ, who suffered for our sins, died, and rose again the third day that we might be forgiven through faith in him (see 1 Corinthians 15:3-4). Jesus Christ will save those who trust in him as Savior: For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life (John 3:16). In this way, our King will save us! Repent and trust in Jesus Christ!
Isaiah 33:22 reads, For the LORD is our judge, the LORD is our lawgiver, the LORD is our king; he will save us. God has the power to make the law and to judge lawbreakers. We all have broken his law--For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God (Romans 3:23). As judge, he has found us guilty and declared our sentence: For the wages of sin is death... (Romans 6:23a). In love, God, made one way for us to be saved from sin and death. He sent his Son, Jesus Christ, who suffered for our sins, died, and rose again the third day that we might be forgiven through faith in him (see 1 Corinthians 15:3-4). Jesus Christ will save those who trust in him as Savior: For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life (John 3:16). In this way, our King will save us! Repent and trust in Jesus Christ!
I was told just that by my Baptist preacher. I asked him about a little 12 year old girl who belonged to a family that did not believe in doctors or hospitals. They insisted on praying over her and said God would heal her. Well, God wasn't healing her. She got sicker and sicker until one day she begged one of the women who had been left to sit her to take to the hospital. The woman refused and the little girl died. I asked the preacher what happens to her soul and he told me she would go to hell. Once I overcame my shock, I asked him why. He said she was 12 and that is the age of which she is capable of making decisions for herself. He said, when she chose to decide to defy her parents and therefore defy God, she let evil into her life and God no longer had any mercy for her. Needless to say I left that church and haven't set foot in one since. It took me another 30 years to deconstruct from the brain washing I had received at the hands of church doctrine and Christianity.
Wow, that preacher sure had a sick and twisted way of believing!
A friend of mine committed suicide. It broke my heart for his parents. Another friend told me "it's so sad he's in hell!" Christianity is really not for me.
I don't think you deconstructed properly, friend. The name "6Lucifer6Satan6" still shows a dependence on Christian dogma.
You just flipped it, and now act like Satan is God, and God is Satan. But still are clinging to this notion of being in s "chosen" people guven "secret knowledge" waiting "to be saved".
Satanic temples are still Christian nonsense, and deeper Satanic occultist dogma is still preaching The Bible. You just gotta "read it more closely", "think a certain way", and "use metaphors". Exactly like the mainstream Christians. It's no mistake, you're still getting sold a lie.
Still, who am I to criticize what comfort food delulu people wish to cling to, 🤷♀️. I just needed to get that off Mmy chest. I am sorry. Satanists are often vastly more annoying than Christians in their Self-Assured nonsensical view of the world. At least Christians don't regularly stalk and bully people with their thought-terminating cliche bullshit, you know?
Take it easy dude. Sorry if I insulted you, but I shall still be happy if you get a clue as to how stupid religion is.
It's taken me 20 years to deconvert, but only after a few months of doubting, after I'd read some of the bible. I've deconverted tonight, because it's evidently clear how hypocritical and evil God is, putting generational curses on us and then punishing us for having the curses. I'm glad I'm done believing this utter nonsense.
There are churches like that. I've been in too many that were less or more like that. Just Pharisees by another name. They can talk. But they are full of lies and arrogance.
When I was growing up in the 70's I went to Mass on Sunday with my Dad and siblings. My father was very devout at the time. Years later shortly before he died he told me, "I would like to think that when I die I will see my parents again but I think when you die that's it." I admire my dad for stating what he thought was the case at a time when it would have been much easier to retreat into the religious conservatism he was raised to believe. What kind of "just" God would punish my father simply for his honesty?
Your dad had the strength to defeat denial. Cudo’s to him
I get more excited for Secular Bible Study than I ever did going to church.
ha, love to hear it.
Ad. " get more excited for Secular Bible Study than I ever did going to church." -- Bible has an explanation for it: " 3 For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear." 2Tim 4,3 Apparently we are reaching that point and Biblical prediction comes true.
@stefansevcik1877
What a joke 😂
@@cristagalli8684 What an anti-logical fallacy: “Humor and ridicule can be extremely effective ploys when one is arguing in front of audience, often
derailing a superior argument. But as Graham Green’s Monsignor Quixote reminds us, “Laughter is not an argument. It can be stupid abuse.”
@stefansevcik1877
I'm laughing because I've heard this all before. Your attempts to try and justify why people nowadays would take issues with your religion is honestly just sad, especially when you use scripture to try and explain why, and not dig deep enough and try to open your mind to other possible explanations.
I'm not going to argue with you because it's pointless, and you'll likely not change your mind, so I leave you with only a chuckle.
An all loving, all powerful god.
Then why am I an atheist?
If he doesn't want to convince me, then he's not all loving.
If he can't convince me, then he's not all powerful.
Perfect!
And what kind of loving parent hides from their child(ren) and allows all kinds of unspeakable evil to happen to them when He can easily stop it?
@ButConsiderThis besides, I cannot run the 100 m in 9.02 seconds. Although, I want to. The g0d, whatever the g0d even is, already gives 0 fukk about my free will.
'freewill', or 'you secretly believe in god, look at the trees'. or 'you just wanna sin' and so on... it gets tiring, and they won't acknowledge our refutations, ever. it's the rare theist that deconverts, alas.
I know right, and the extra ironic part is that there's multiple points in the bible where he supposedly overrides it anyways by making people (particularly groups) attack others. Christian's don't seem to understand that just the simple act of pushing a nation to war is already fucking with their free will.@ButConsiderThis
Happy Sunday Brandon! I am 65 and have read the Bible 3 times but I don't know half of what you know about the Bible. This is why I enjoy your channel so much. ☀️
Always glad to help give more information. Thanks for this!
You simply didn’t have the power of the spirit ministering it’s truth. Lol! 🤓🤔😉😶🌫️🤫
@MindShift-Brandon by the way, my impression of Unitarian Universalists after attending their church a few times is that they don't even care about being biblical anymore! They mostly meditated, read inspirational thoughts and poetry from any source they pleased, and discussed social justice issues. I even met an atheist who regularly showed up for food and discussion at the end, and he had several friends there!
This is the exact problem that made me start questioning religion. Why do people that never had a chance to hear about God go to hell, meanwhile some terrible people will watch all of that from heaven because they were born in the right time. There are so many factors that determine whether a person is religious or not, the family you're in, your life circumstances, etc. The church people tried to gaslight me with general revelation to try and justify that everyone has a shot in heaven, and if that were the case (which is not), they would definitely have completely different opportunities, and after I pointed that out they just dismissed me and told me to stop questioning God. So much for a fair and loving God.
How do you know that people who never had a chance to hear about God go to hell? We were all born with a conscience therefore if we do something wrong our conscience will convict us. So even if someone never heard the gospel they are guided by their conscience.
God isn’t far from each of us and God can speak through dreams and visions and thing is, word travels fast so more people can know.
ok explanation:
God is just. He will not send somebody to hell if they have never heard of Him. If somebody hears of Jesus but doesn’t believe, then it depends. If they just hear his name once then never again, that person has heard but is uninformed. God is just and will judge them according to what they knew.
Only unfortunate part is that the way the bible frames it, anybody who doesn't specifically put 100% of their trust in an entity they can't seemingly physically interact with would be tossed into hell. It's like the moment you hear about him, that's when they go "oop, you've signed the contract, better bow or face annihilation".@@ruvv_6464
@@ruvv_6464 Then isn't evangelism one of the worst things a Christian can do? Why do missions exist under this model? If someone has a 0% chance of being eternally tortured and you do something to raise it, that's beyond cruel.
He sets up a standard that nobody can live up to, and then punishes you for not living up to it...
My 40+ year gambling addiction has cost me my family, friends, reputation, etc. I’ve lied, cheated, stolen, deceived, inflicted pain, caused suffering, accused, etc.etc. Then, one day last week, I hit the powerball for 12.5 million! I think I’m a big winner??? 🤨🤔😵💫🥴
Love that example!
Omg im so proud for u altho taxes
Sounds like you’ve been around the rooms a bit.
I'm sorry, but if I entered heaven and was greeted by a serial killer who just happened to ask god for forgiveness before he died, that's a sure indicator a model of goodness is broken.
Ted Bundy is an example I like to throw out - supposedly he repented and believed right before his execution. Does he waltz into heaven? And are some of his victims permanently "lost?"
id hate for even serial killers to go to hell sure it sucks that they did horrible things but even with that hell is just so horrible I cant really want that for them with my current mind
I recently gave up on my search of Christianity as the truth, and I spent about 2 years doing as best as I could to make it make sense, but I couldn't in the end. I sometimes grieve that time spent on what now looks like a mission that was doomed from the beginning, but I'm happy channels like yours exist. You are giving people more free time to live their life, instead of losing it to fruitless pursuits. I think this is the most valuable part of your channel really, you are helping people value their most valuable resource. Much love from Colombia ❤
Don't worry. If you hadn't done the journey, you wouldn't have reached this conclusion and would likely still be wondering about it now.
Appreciate that!
@@jdevlin1910 That is true. And I did learn a lot on the way here, but it's crazy to think how much time was invested into trying to find something that should be self-evident
There's a story by Ursula K Le Guin called "The Ones Who Walk Away from Omelas." It describes a beautiful, utopian city full of healthy, happy people living lives of abundance and joy and peace, with beautiful art, magnificent festivals, and brilliant technology.
With one catch. Locked away in a dark basement, subsisting on meager gruel, sitting naked in their own filth, is a child. They beg to be let out... but if they were, if even one kind word were spoken to the child, all the happiness and prosperity of Omelas would end. For those are the terms. Everyone knows this. Nobody likes it at first when they learn. But most accept it eventually, and make all manner of justifications for it. Save for a few. And they are the ones who walk away.
This story has always reminded me of the ideas of Heaven and Hell I was taught. Heaven is supposed to be a great and glorious place, and the versions I was taught stressed that every good thing about life would be there (except maybe sex), at least once "heaven" extends to "the New Earth". Nature. Exploration. Art. Music. Games. Relationships. Fulfilling careers. Feasting. Dancing. And, of course, the imminent presence and glory of God, worshipping before his throne.
There's just one catch. But rather than just one single neglected child, it's _the majority of humanity_ suffering eternally in the locked basement boiler room of the cosmos.
No tri-omni God could allow this. And I could never lovingly serve or worship the kind of God who would.
I LOVE THIS! thank you for sharing it. Getting that book asap.
@@MindShift-Brandon It's just a short story. The full text should be available online. It's a quick read, but very poignant!
thank you for posting this-, I love her work esp. the short stories. LeGuin was a beautiful writer of complex ideas!
"God doesn't send you to hell. You send yourself to hell."
Which means there is a mechanism that God has no control over, that judges you independent of God for somehow *choosing* not to believe in God's existence with zero evidence, and then sends you to hell. Which means that either God is not omnipotent, or he chooses to not have control over that mechanism, which essentially makes him indeed send you to hell for not pretending to believe in him.
Or, God doesn't send you to hell for not believing in him, and he should be ignored in favor of secular humanism until he stops using representatives and shows up himself (and explains himself for advocating for slavery).
Another great video.
God can do anything and choose to do anything. Fortunately He is Holy and Merciful. What He has chosen to do is on the appointed day separate Himself from those who rejected Him and chose their flesh instead. To be with Him is paradise. The current fallen world is our test of faith and obedience. Love your Father or rebel?
@@BethJehovahInteresting. You are responding to a comment about hell without even mentioning the word "hell". Could it be an indication of cognitive dissonance on your part between the concept of an all-loving god and the concept of hell?
Try again. This time, try not to dodge the issue, and address the concept of hell.
@@BethJehovah "No one is cast off from the Lord forever." Lam 3:31 Anyone who rejects an all-good God isn't making a free will decision. Why would God exile someone who makes the wrong decision based on bad information?
If the general understanding of Christians is to be accepted, that God judges his fallible creations so harshly that they need to accept his mercy and praise him in order to avoid eternal torment, that would be horrible. The real problem is that this God doesn't reveal himself to humanity in a way that is obvious to all. Thus the vast majority of them have to take it on faith that God exists, has a plan and expects them to do certain things to avoid eternal torture. This is unbelievably horrible.
I wonder if this god is Angelica pickles on steroids. The only thing is karma doesn't get him somehow at the end
Well said.
Questioning that which has been deemed to be unquestionable is so much fun. God doesn't like to be put to the test because he can't perform because he doesn't exist.
As Thomas Westbrook said, "Be curious, but don't drink the kool-aid."
Thanks again for the content you make.
Love holy kookaid! And thank you!
But if you have already swallowed the koolaid, there is hope for recovery by renewing your mind with honesty & videos from champions of reality like this one.
I drank the koolaid, but have been cleansing it out of my system for the last decade.
@@bigdude8468 You're right. I've been in koolaid detox since August.
Jesus really shot himself in the foot when he said “anything you ask for in my name shall surely be given to you”.
The ultimate test of falsifiability.
@@JesseDriftwood I can't tell you how many things I asked for in the name of Jesus that I'm still waiting to receive.
"I regret that I have made them." This is one of the most horrible things human parents can say to their kids. Selfish, hateful, devastating to hear that the one who gave you life wishes they hadn't.
@maggienewton8518 "I'll drown all my children except for the one good son and his family."
Sounds like the idea of a filicidal maniac rather than a loving creator.
And he didn't stop there. He annihilated his offspring in Sodom and Gomorrah because they were so wicked and out of control, but spared the one good son.
Alternatively, if you also regret being born, it can be relieving, empathy building, and comforting to hear!
@@LifeStrike2030Maybe I'm misunderstanding you but I don't agree. Having the person who brought you into the world saying such things only reinforces your regret, makes you feel like you are not only of no value but a negative. Empathy building, yes, because you understand the pain of others who are reviled unfairly, but comforting, relieving? I don't see it. If someone regrets being born, it would be best if they get help and come to understand the value of life, how incredibly precious it is, and that they can be designers of their own lives, change what it is that makes them so unhappy. But again, maybe I misunderstand you here.
@@maggienewton8518 I have been raped repeatedly from the age of 4 through high school. That kind of trauma cannot be healed. So I regret being born. It’s not my fault, and I’ve come to understand that, but it is my problem, and it can’t be fixed. Life is a bad deal for lots of people. And many of us want to leave. In that state, hearing that your parents understand they failed, understand they could not have done better, and therefore understand that life was just a mistake is incredibly comforting.
@@LifeStrike2030I am so very sorry. I cannot say anything, this is a terrible burden for you to bear. No words from me could ever be adequate or fair. Thank you for your courage.
When I was still a young Christian, I actually asked someone in my congregation if the biblical perspective wasn't that actually the devil was winning in the end. Their response:
- No, because the devil will be destroyed.
- Yes, but he will have dragged down a majority of people to hell. If God doesn't want anyone to perish, and still so many do, doesn't that mean that the devil succeeded in overcoming god's will?
- No, because those people rejecting God will cause God not to want to save them anymore, and so everything will turn out according to God's will after all.
- But didn't then the devil cause God to abandon his original will, meaning that he still won him over?
I'm still waiting for a logical answer to this day. I think, back in the day, the answer was: "There must be some error in reasoning there, but I can't find it now."
I can’t tell you how many nights I didn’t go to sleep because I didn’t know how to be “saved” when I was a kid. I’m 34 now, and just recently I found out most of my siblings experienced something similar. Pretty lame.
Have you guys started healing? Deconstructing can take so long and has so many facets.
Lame to put it lightly. I hate the implications of most parts if this religion on children.
My mom put plastic sheets on all of our beds……
What a thoughtful Christian woman she is!
@@mr.c2485 for bed wetting?
@@GameTimeWhy I definitely have. I started deconstructing about 2 years ago. Most of my siblings aren’t religious(there’s 9 of us). My oldest sister still is for sure, but everyone else is just indifferent. We’re all doing ok. Thank you for asking.
There’s a saying that people have said to me. “Religion doesn’t ask questions”. That’s so true 😟. Once you ask questions, you are automatically a heathen and seen as a sinner😟.
Got questions? You can ask me.Ivecasked God many questions,hard ones,He's answered quite a few.
@@ricklamb772
Did those answers happen to be things you wanted to hear already?
Hope you are having a nice weekend. Awesome video like always. When you said about the bibe, if we do not love him we are against him, we are his enemy. But we are supposed to love our enemies, damn! So true. It is irreconcilable! Sending you and your family love my friend.
Thanks so much, Greg! Always enjoy hearing what sticks out to you.
Well said, Brandon. Thank you for what you do. Church for unbelievers,.... Pastor Brandon.
Thanks, Bill!
Thank you for raising this topic. t has always troubled me that god almighty declares that we should love our enemies, meanwhile he tortures his in hell for all eternity (Except the devil who was given free reign to run riot). It still makes no sense. Apologists make my concerns worse by dancing around the question. Utterly pathetic.
What an interesting idea! Before watching this video, I never even considered that God has already lost in what he supposedly wants for all of us.
Glad to provide something new. I think, by his own words, its more than clear.
Hi Brandon,
Oh, this video is amazing!
(just as all of your videos are!) But in this video I realized even more, how open and freely you speak. Although I am an atheist for about a year now, I still have problems to actually speak things out loud, like: "God lost!". But let's face it, it's obviously so, as you just beautifully and logically explained. Although this topic was not new for me, I had a lot of new thoughts while listening to you.
I love that you speak so clearly! Very calm, with explanations why you think so. I notice, how I get better to speak openly too. (This week we will have family reunion and they are all Christians, and I fear the topic of me being an atheist will come up...) it feels so liberating to just say out loud, what has been suppressed for so long.
I learn so much from you. Especially to stay calm during conversations with Christians :)
Brandon, you really change lives for the better. Very good work!
Oh i get that! It took me a long time to feel so free and sure. Glad to be helping you now! Thank you for the kindness
Nobody asked to exist. I choose to pursue humanism with my existence now. It makes the most sense with what little existence I've been given. I try deliberately not to be insufferable to others as a baseline behavior.
As Morty once said, “no one chooses to be born, nobody belongs anywhere and we are all going to die! So please, come watch TV.”
Hard to refuse being brought to existence when you don't even exist yet I suppose.
Brilliant!!!!!!! I know I am probably alone here but I feel the same for the poor animals .for me if even one suffered it was not worth creating this whole thing
Many thanks, Paul!
Man, you must really hate nature then. I mean, I agree, it's not pretty.
It's crazy how many of your videos are exactly what I had been thinking for years when I was still Catholic. I'm glad to see I'm not alone! I recently deconverted and am now Agnostic, and people like you, Alex O'Connor, Genetically Modified Skeptic, Rationality Rules, and Paulogia have helped me deprogram myself a lot. Thank you!
It's crazy how many of your videos are exactly what I had been thinking (and having extreme difficulty in reconciling) for years when I was a devout southern baptist! I'm glad to see I am not alone either.
So glad to here and what an honor to be in the mix with those guys!
Reminds me of a thought experiment I read a while back:
-Would you choose to go live in a perfect utopia - one where immortality is granted, where suffering is gone, where useless pain is eradicated, where pleasure and growth of both mind and body is inexhaustible - if you knew the one catch? The one catch is that, in the center, deep within the foundations, there is a young child kept alive and tortured forever, to facilitate this utopia of billions. It you try to save the child, the utopia will collapse in an ecstasy of destruction.
So the question is: is utopia of any kind or size **worth** the necessary suffering of even one being?
Oh, I know this one!
It's The Ones Who Walk Away From Omelas
Someone else in this comment section talked about it as well
@@mavericktjo4548
Thanks! I had forgotten the name.
@@timbertome2443
No need to thank me, just thanks that other person I mentioned!
Sounds like the defense of communism
The one thing different between this and Christianity. Is that in this story, it is a set rule that you can only pick one out of both options, but this should not be the case for the so-called omnipotent God. If he is so powerful, he should be able to make it that you can save the kid without sacrificing the joy of others. So even if your answer for this thought experiment is that it is worth it for one child to suffer for the happiness of billions, it still makes no sense for the case of Christianity, which makes the whole thing worse.
It's amazing how similar God is to the leader of North Korea in attitude and behavior.
More like similar to Big Brother from 1984
@hamobu He's a lot like TRUMP too!
@rboland2173 We're all gonna be in the cornfield😜 You are right on, fantastic comparison !!!
I think there's a passage that says we are to obey our leaders because God puts those leaders where they are.....then I see certain countries around the world with these megomaniacal leaders and I'm chilled to my core.
What about its followers; blind obedience due to fear and /or brainwashing. The dictator has power over life and death in North Korea.
Brandon I will watch later this afternoon, I have to go to church now…only joking. Looking forward to watch and learn from your channel 👍🏼
Lol. Love it. Thank you!
Even if one took 50.01% saved as “victory”, it’s still a sad outcome. One of the first struggles with my faith was trying to accept that 1/3 of souls were lost even before coming to Earth. It didn’t seem fair or loving when looking at an eternal outcome. I could never create anything knowing I would have to condemn 1/3 before time even began.
If we talk about christianity it's more likely 2/3.There are many religious people but only small part of them are christians and only one denomination can be true.The rest are going to hell.
yes!!
What if it's all the inverse of eveything that we're taught? What if the Christian Sheep become perpetual sacrifices, brothers and sisters in Christ, acceptable sacrifices to God.
I questioned and pondered this very question since very young…….thank you!
My pleasure.
I hear the pain and sorrow in your voice, Brandon - and it’s visceral for you, as a father and husband
The story of Job has always, always bothered me - believers will rush to the end, saying that God spoke to Job and restored health and family to him - so we’re to believe that Job felt no sorrow, loss or grief over the family that he had before God permitted Satan to kill them?
Every account I’ve ever read of parents who’ve lost a baby and subsequently had another child don’t think their “rainbow baby” completely takes the pain of the first loss away
Thanks for your continuing thoughtful presentations - continued health and safety be with you and your family!
My thoughts exactly. Job lost all his kids. So for some reason god and people think it ok because he got twice as many back. THAT IS JUST PLAIN CRAZY
@@imjustsayingthough2261And why not restore his original children, instead of new ones. I don't care if it was twice, or thrice the number. Since we were lead to believe god was all-powerful, why not? Just a command, right? After all, in just a few words, everything popped into existence.
I don't know what it says in the original Hebrew, but I have heard interpretations that claim that "restored" meant that God brought them back to life...certainly a modern retelling of the story would include that. One of the big issues here, and with religion as a whole, is that these stories are coming from an essentially "alien" civilization, and our cultural values have shifted significantly since then. For ex, for most of human history, infant mortality was so high that families not only had far more children than they tend to today, but when they inevitably lost some, it was considered ok to "replace" them by just having another child. Today we know that each child is unique and special, and having another won't make that pain go away, but that was the common wisdom back then. So, this story may well make more sense for its original audience than it does to us, along with all the other questions Brandon raises and we debate in the comments. Frankly, we've outgrown the Bible and need to either seriously update it, or just abandon it completely...
Appreciate the care and love!
@@MindShift-Brandonyou deserve it, Brandon. Have a great day and see you soon on UA-cam!
I like this perspective. It really brings to mind the ultimate narcissism of the god of the Bible... Why make a creation anyway? On top of being omniscient, he knew the loss and pain that was going to happen. I can only believe that "god" is a manifestation of human beings controlling the masses with fear and rewards you by being obedient. "To love me is to obey me". Dictatorship 101. Abusive father 101. I actually see the OT god as a serial killer.
Yes. Exactly!
"WHY make a creation anyway?" EXACTLY.
Why does an all powerful, all knowing, all glorious King of EVERYTHING need mere humans to worship it? I am still waiting for Christians to answer this simple question.
Would Charles Manson be better??
@@jaycahuenga6416 I would say no. Why would you think one murderous, manipulative entity should replace another?
@@CatDaddyGuitarto me they are similar or the same like other serial murderers before. They get a kick out of it
Thanks!
Thank you!
If the Bible is to be believed, evil winning doesn't mean God lost, it means God won, because God IS evil.
Except it's a plot twist that the writers did a shitty job hiding. It would be like the French guy in the mockbuster "What's Up: Balloon to the Rescue" saying out loud, repeatedly, in front of all the main characters, that he wants to take over the world and then the main characters being surprised when they discover he wants to take over the world.
for sure, thats one of my three conclusions in the end, god is the evil one.
@@MindShift-Brandon For sure, this is Satan saying he's God.
Which is at the least believable and consistent
Calvinists be like:
But seriously, die-hard calvinists think it is okay because the "everyone" are only the elects and everyone else is "vase of dishonour" and their deaths/suffering is to glorify God
The question I often have is if human beings aren't animals as believers often claim why do they treat non believers like they are no better than animals if they either don't want to believe or they are former believers that have chosen a life of autonomy away from religion? What makes them think their dehumanizing apologetic filth would make anyone in their right mind want to crawl back to the faith after learning things like you teach on your channel? Just me rambling again. Good video brandon. I feel like I repeat myself sometimes but I'll try to come up with better points in the future.
Always appreciate the comments. Thanks for taking the time.
God is like a parent who kick their kids out of the house and wonder why no one visits them in the retirement home.
I went to church today as my pastor talked about how depressed young people were and how other religions can't give hope but only Christianity and Jesus Christ and he talked about a story from the Bible about how a woman washed and kissed Jesus feet with her tears, I found that story to be emotionally manipulative and even disgusting but that's just me (I go to church cause it's my families choice)
hang tough there. Soon, you'll be old enough. Then you can choose not to waste your time in churches. Now, 1 important piece of advice here to prevent trouble:
unless you can start a life of your own financially, please, keep playing religi0n. Go to church, the whole 9 yards!
yes, sadly, it is a dishonest strategy. I know. But it is way better then sleeping under the bridge. By the way, religi0n is dishonest, too. That might help. Stay safe.
It's all made up.
2000 year old stories which might have resonated with a dead culture become more like a mill stone around the neck of Christianity. They sink like stone in water.
Nailed it! So many fantastic, hard-hitting points. Thank you very much.
Thanks, Deb!
Thanks for your sharings. I have begun to look forward to them
Love to hear that. Thanks for being here.
The concept that God gave satan dominion over the earth always buffled me. In the bible it seems like God uses satan and his evil for his own purposes, like when he let satan into the garden of eden to SUCCESSFULLY tempt Adam and Eve
Don't forget allowing Satan to torture Job. Also punishing an innocent child for what David did. The list goes on.
Satan must have that devlish good head game succubi are famous for for god to allow him to do anything he wants @@Childfree334
Most of "Satan's" appearances in the Old Testament depict a being that is not God's enemy. He acts like an agent that follows God's orders to do "evil" things.
Hi Ashley if hell and satan were removed from the bible it would be check mate game over fear and manipulation eliminated
So from the sounds of it, god basically got super bored and went out of his way to create a world, then instigate conflict on it. Kinda makes sense in retrospect, as it gives him something to do, almost like a weird divine game of sorts where he appointed another creation (satan) to be an opponent. Giving him dominion over the earth is probably the only way it could've been a fair competition at that, considering the power gap.
Of course, I don't really believe he's a real entity and such, but that just sounds like the most plausible (and maybe geekiest) reason if it ever was a thing.@@omarcarpentiero
Thank you for another wonderful video Brandon. I came to the same conclusion during my deconstruction. Unless you're a Universalist Christian, it's hard to rationalize any other conclusion than that the Christian God has lost control of its own creation and is now just salvaging some scraps. That's why I often comment and just that the the only 'omni' the Christian God possesses is omni-incompetence.
Once again thank you for the content that you put out. As someone living in the deep red state of Nebraska and having to put up with constant slander and disparagement of non-christians, (and especially atheists!) It is cathartic and quite frankly, comforting to hear from similarly minded individuals, and especially those who came out of deeply religious backgrounds.
Appreciate that so much, and yes I too am surrounded. What part of Nebraska are you in? Certain parts would be harder than others I believe.
_"You want to control people? Tell them a messiah will come. They’ll wait for centuries.”_ Chani, Dune Part Two
Chani’s statement reflects a critical perspective on the manipulation of religious beliefs and messianic figures as tools for controlling populations and consolidating power. It underscores the potential for exploitation inherent in such narratives within religious and political contexts.
But no one is controlled. People can have faith or they can rebel.
I learned to bury my ego more as I got older. This helped with reasoning and helped me rely less on blind faith or luck where there was none. Fact-finding and logic can be as satisfying as they are frustrating, but it's worth their pursuit in the long-run.
Beautifully said, Brandon! I really enjoy how succinctly you put together your arguments and site numerous passages backing up your points.
Thanks, Sarah!
Just started the vid...I like that you are more front and center now, and I still like the background picture. 40k subs are right around the corner!
He definitely deserves all of those subs. I'd even say he deserves 400,000 or even 4 million.
Yes, why did it take me so long to simply move the desk up, ha! And thank you!
@MindShift-Brandon I will definitely watch you on deep drinks tomorrow. What time CST does it start?
@@Johnmhatheist Yes, there are so many aspects to talk about regarding this topic and how it affects the world today, I think he will continue to grow. Skillwise he's one of the best, especially coming from a former Christian, close to the Bible, perspective which appeals even to Christians that might want to understand arguments they would encounter from the other side while 'witnessing'.
I do see it's easier for the Christian apologists to reach millions of views just bc they have a wider audience in the US, but I also feel like there has been a void in this space since the fading of the four horsemen.
The problem with arguing religion is that such arguments can never be resolved. Everyone already has all the available information incorporated into their position and because no new information is coming, there's no way to confirm or falsify any opinion.
"...there's no way to confirm or falsify any opinion."
until religi0ns say something magical. Which they ALL do. For example a bolt from Zeus, or g0d knitting us in the womb. Then it is often easy to falsify religi0us claims. And then we have fast and cheap ways to communicate that. The info about falsified claims can land in every pocket in the first world within seconds, IF somebody cares enough to ask. And some people do. That's why we become less and less religi0us.
MindShift has thoughts many people have not thought of though. A different perspective. Once I learned about narcissism and toxic relationships, my eyes were opened.
Hey Brandon, I agree evil has won. I think we need to get passed the idea that the good guy always win. It gives us false hope.
I understand. So, what are we going to do with our lives?
@@blueStarKitt7924 I didn't say the good guys didn't win. We have to keep on keeping on. It's just that we need to know that the bad guys do win sometimes. Sometimes they win a lot. But then the good guys win and they/we win a lot
@@imjustsayingthough2261 🤔 Yes.
Brandon, very revealing and instructive. This only furthers an idea that religion is less about theology and more about fellowship, networking, socializing and community. Many times I have heard, "Well, at least you Believe in Something", that Something could be a theology that is divergent from the speakers, but "Going to Church" trumps theology differences.
Great point. This religion has really left and even denied its root.
👍 love direct...Happy Sunday
Thanks, Deb!
I was just looking at antinatalism, so this made me realize that if eternal torment is on the table at all, as even a _remote_ possibility, antinatalism would probably be the only right thing. It would solve the "continuing vs starting a life" distinction as well, since opting out of life early is a 1-way ticket to eternal torment; it would suck enough that we all have to deal with this unwinnable Pascalian wager, we certainly wouldn't want to be bringing anyone else into it. & of course a good God wouldn't want to create anyone either. He doesn't even need to know what _will_ happen, he just needs to know the risks. _If the risk be so great, you must not create!_
6:06 The king having to fight another kingdom reminds me of the "it's better for God to triumph over evil than to disallow it in the first place" theodicy. By that logic, it would be better if the king _had_ engineered the situation where the other kingdom attacks, rather than maintaining peaceful relations.
Eternity is a torture either way. All things come to an end, newness and rebirth are the goal, not stagnation...
Rebirth is a HUGE Biblical theme.
Good morning! Time to think..
Thanks for being here for it!
Putting the detailed scriptural locations on the screen is much appreciated !
Yet another great rebuttal to accepting the ancient anthology as a world framework !!
One recommendation "Keep thinking" seems like a good but weak signature ending. "Live your life." has been taken. After these mic dropping presentations, perhaps end with a little more profundity that matches the power of the excellent work done !
Appreciate all that and glad you liked the sources in screen. Im open to a better ending but honestly i do love the simple suggestion. It’s kinda the theme of the whole channel. To have a mind shift requires one not to turn it off and thats what so much of religion does.
@@MindShift-Brandon You are awesome Brandon and your work is very very important. The hope is to help, not just by watching, commenting and recommending, but to perhaps provide that sparkle to get more views.
Best of regards.
This is a great listen & well spoken. Awesome job
Happy sunday, judging by the description, this was one of the problems that personally drove me to universalism.
If God created souls that he knew would end up in hell or anahilated, that means God failed to save everyone, something that falls short of a supreme, loving God
I have a universalism clause just for you lol. Jk. But moving to that conclusion to avoid this conclusion isnt a real answer imo. I’ll make my case against universalism in a soon coming video though.
@@MindShift-Brandon definetly will be there for that for sure👍
I expected much better from an "all knowing" yada yada yada "supreme being"🤣🤣
Yeah i never understood Christians comparing the god they define against a human parent. No matter how terrible your child is, do they deserve eternal torture? If you are all powerful/knowing/loving and they are still able to Fall then should you be punished for letting them?
The very concept of “I desire everyone to be saved” is what caused me to deconstruct. I kept running into walls. My last leg was “what about those who never heard the gospel?” If they can be saved through nature, then why did Jesus come? If people who were merely ignorant or not at the fictional age of accountability automatically go to heaven, then evangelism is counterproductive and we shouldn’t do it.
When I allowed myself the freedom to challenge God on this, it was obviously contradictory to his Omni characteristics. Either he’s lacking Omni characteristics or he’s lying when he says he desires everyone to be saved. Both work against him heavily. If he wanted everyone to be saved, he would’ve made it so…or he’s not capable of making a world where that’s possible and is lying about his power/capabilities as if he is.
Then you look at the scholarship of New Testament letters only to find that we don’t know who wrote most of them and the time period in which they’re written is too late. It becomes reasonable to conclude that the only reason that verse in Peter exists is bc people were starting to die and Christ hadn’t come yet, so the writer had to make up something to comfort the people, and the church in later centuries meticulously crafted the Bible with books and verses that would keep people in the faith.
Your video on the age of accountability is probably my favorite one bc it just affirmed things I already knew and was ignoring. It was the most persuasive video for me tbh. It details out in clear language how f’d up the realities behind the concept of salvation actually is
appreciate that! it was so hard not to dig down deeper into both GR and AOA in this video, but was hoping the one you mentioned would suffice.
@@MindShift-Brandon I think it’s makes sense to reiterate those concepts when they’re relevant. They all connect to the atrocities of this belief system and are probably the most powerful concepts that believers use to delude themselves whenever they have to think about the fairness of salvation
That was one of the first thoughts and realizations that I came to that got me started down the road of deconversion many years ago, that if everything in the Bible is true then the devil wins and god loses in the end.
Bro, you break it down to perfection. Thanks!
Glad to hear it. thanks for watching!
If I was still a Christian I would argue that a similar analogy was used by Jesus describing his 100 sheep where 99 are left behind in order to find that one lost sheep, supposedly not wanting even one to perish, but being of sound mind and body, I now realize that this good shepherd analogy is about leading the sheep to slaughter by means of the narrow gate, where the livestock is forced to move straight ahead and cannot turn around and run back to the green pastures from whence they came. This is the true difference between the wide and narrow gates.
oh wow, thats a really intersting take. Its not what the writers meant, but yes, in reality much closer to the truth.
Not all pastures are green. Some are VERY far from it. Further than you'd imagine. If that weren't the case, shepherds would have no purpose. This is very true in the spiritual world. We got a lot of people who are in some very non-green pastures where they're addicted to a substance or two. They definitely need a shepherd. The question is, which shepherd do they need?
@@reginacb79 I'm thankful for your work, and I agree that a religious experience may not help everyone get off of drugs, but what about some of the many who credit their delivery from drugs to a divine experience? You act like such people don't exist, or if they do, they were unsuccessful, or that they were better off being dirty than clean. As bad as drugs are, there's no way every person who turned to religion afterward was better off before. Perhaps a few were, but all? NO WAY. I can tell you right now if I left my religion for drugs, my family would be DEEPLY harmed and wouldn't consider my choice to be wise. Of course I'm not much of a religious addict. I'm not very active in my church.
@@theboombody I apologize for the confusion, when I mentioned green pastures, I was simply referring to the psalm where the sheep are made to lay down in green pastures, however the rod and staff that "comfort" you, are only doing their job, until you're fat enough for the slaughter house, then the true nature of the shepherd is revealed as you are forced into that narrow gate of deception.
@@Grayraven777 Well there definitely are a lot of false preachers out there whose intent is really to deceive for their personal gain. You're right about that. Whether ALL religion fits that bill, who knows. I don't believe that to be the case, although I'll never be able to prove it. I definitely believe that nature has some sort of intent in it that's beyond human intent.
A good, able god would not have had to punish evil if he could have prevented it.
After all, is that not what heaven will be? A place devoid of evil, and where its inhabitants have free will? Why didn't he do this on earth already?
If you take Christian mythology at face value, there *was* sin in Heaven and Lucifer led a full-on rebellion there (before being cast down into Hell, taking Lilith as a bride and siring Charlie Morningstar - or at least that’s how things go in The Gospel according to Vivziepop…). So, if it already happened once there’s no reason to believe that sin can’t manifest in Heaven and spark rebellion again…
I had, and still have, a lot of the same problems with Christianity and Islam because God always comes off us a negligent, hypocritical, vindictive, manipulative, absent, abusive, toxic parent who behaves arbitrarily and keeps his message vague on purpose to screw with us. I always felt we were more like the toys that ended up on Sid's side of the fence in Toy Story. It would have made more sense for God to not just be written, but to be preached, as someone with flaws that needs our help to triumph over evil, as opposed to just forcing us to pick sides and look on from the sidelines. I have to laugh at all these so-called spiritual warriors; if God is already supposed to win at the end and he knows it, what does he need puny, human soldiers for? It's a zero sum shell game.
Appreciate this. Thank you!
A mother is only as happy as her unhappiest child
I totally agree with your argument here.
Thanks for watching!
Excellent video! If Yahweh doesn't want anyone to suffer in hell then he could just - you know - get rid of it. Problem solved. lol
Right! Its really not that complicated. But the excuses that come out are insane.
Or….he could simply take on the eternal suffering for himself while we all enjoy a heaven. Oh, that’s right, he claims he already did that.
It didn’t work….
@@mr.c2485 He created angels and that didn't work, he created 2 humans and that didn't work, he killed essentially everyone on earth and that didn't work, he constantly tortured and killed his own chosen people to keep them in line and that didn't work, and he supposedly sacrificed himself to undo his mistakes and apparently that didn't work either.
This deity is a loser. Lol
Walter Wangerin said you can't have light without dark, or heat without cold. Not Biblical, but something to think about.
@@theboombody Then why didn't hell always exist? According to the now severely edited and manipulated Bible, at one point only heaven existed. So theoretically, only good existed. Then, Yahweh screwed it all up.
Sheol used to be the place everyone went after death. Kinda like how everyone went to Hades in Greek mythology. It was a place to have your soul cleansed so you could be reborn. The process is painful, however. How evil you were in life would determine how long you had you to stay to cleanse the evil from you. Under this system, a baby who died shortly after birth wouldn't need to get cleansed and could be reborn right away. And people like Jaffrey Dahmer would have to stay for quite a while.
That is a FAR more fair system than eternal suffering just because you didn't worship in fear to the correct sky daddy. Yahweh's system is unfair and is therefore evil.
Was it any wonder that the Scriptures were inaccessible to believers for centuries, to whom they had the rely on the Church to share and interpret them? Nowadays with the Bible available to any literate person, the Church relies on their believers to not read it or to not try to understand it in its entirety.
If god were real, he'd be to blame for me not believing. He would have created the standard by which i can be convinced and then failed to meet that standard.
Exactly
I feel like crying because of the truth. Thank you for this.
You say it is “unjustifiable to create creatures against their will,” I agree wholeheartedly. But you unapologetically have brought children into this world.
I also did so when i was still a christian and believed thats what i was supposed to do.
Here's a new one for me: I brought up the parent analogy with an evangelical. As a father, nothing could bring me to banish my child to an eternity of torture. Their answer? Well, if they didn't accept Jesus, they aren't God's children, so that doesn't count. I cannot understand the lack of empathy.
"I cannot understand the lack of empathy."
I can. Hateful indoctrination (for the honest bigots)
pure bullsh!t (if they are just pretending)
sunk cost fallacy, if they are real jesus fans knowing that they cannot win any debate without special pleading.
Its truly repulsive what people will justify to keep their eternal safety net.
Exact same energy of a parent disowning their child for not living up to some bs standard.
The Bible doesn't really emphasize eternal suffering very much. It definitely emphasizes that suffering is a consequence of sin. But I don't think it mentions very often that sin is a web that there's no way to get out of. Or that the timeline of accepting Jesus MUST be before you die. It does say that there is a point where it may be too late, but doesn't specify exactly when that is.
@@theboombody It does, unless you try to soften it to say Hell is just an eternity of separation from God. If that is your definition, what does separation from God look like?
Premise accepted and proven by the bible itself. That god is unbelievable.
Great points. And you don’t actually need to think that hard on it. We were already in blissful oblivion before birth, God placed our souls into random embryos against our will, we are charged with working against the common sense that God gave us to have faith in imperceptible magic, if not we MUST suffer eternal damnation and torture - according to Christianity. Makes zero sense
This was SO GOOD. Thanks!
Glad to hear it, thanks for watching!
I've had this thought too. But I've always wondered how to make Christians share this intuition.
As a pastor’s child of a Pentecostal church, words do not express how much your videos provide comfort to me. I’ve been watching your videos for at least two almost three months now but have been afraid to comment because it makes what I’m going through more real. My entire family is heavily religious and I’ve played a big part in my church as I am the worship leader. To make a long story short, I feel like a fake now. It’s weird for me to lead worship and sing knowing that I’ve stopped believing. The only person who knows is my husband and he’s not particularly thrilled I’m losing my faith. He went through a doubt of faith a few years ago and unfortunately I freaked out on him due to my indoctrination and fear of being unequally yoked smh. I think he feels it would be more trouble than it’s worth for me to make this a thing with my family, and because we are trying to have children now he wants them to be raised in a more progressive church that teaches good morals and for our kids to have a good community without us becoming the black sheep of our family. The plan is to eventually leave my parents pentecostal church once our child is about 5, which that will be hell on earth for me because my dad thinks leaving his church is like rejecting him. But i also am starting to feel uneasy in church in general. I try my hardest not to roll my eyes when certain topics are preached like the “ram in the bush” etc. The only thing that still bothers me is the “gift of the Holy Ghost” I’ve spoken in tongues several times since i was a child, and it’s heavily practiced in my church. I’m not sure what to make of it anymore. It’s the only time I’ve felt a supernatural connection to God, but nothing else makes sense. I would absolutely love to hear your thoughts on speaking in tongues. Btw thanks for all the work you do!
I 100% get where you are and understand each angle! Its such a tough spot to be in. My tipping point, was do i want my children to also be in this tough spot someday when they figure out its not true or should i be the one to deal with the fallout now and make their path easier. Thats what helped me. I will get to a video on tongues. Long story short is our brain is capable of a lot of id encourage you to read godless by dan barker who was also an active worship leader when he finally deconverted. Lastly just a thought, but read back through all the reasons you are wanting to stay or hold on to some form the faith. Not one is because its real. Its just community and feeling and potential fear etc. im not dismissing those things, but i think stepping back and really seeing that is huge.
Thank you for this. I will definitely read the book. It’s such a tough spot to be in that it keeps me up at night. Looking forward to your video about speaking in tongues!
@@HelloYellowShooBlue Its tough, and will continue to get tougher for a long time, but it will be worth it. Speaking from experience
@@HelloYellowShooBlue You are in a tough spot and only you know what is best for you, but do you want your kid in such a place you where the relations are broken up when one no longer believes in unicorns? If people accept one only as long one plays monopoly and believes in the monopoly prison is that a real relationship? You know what is best for you and let no other choose
I don't understand how if the wages of sin are death then how come a God would decide to create a hell. If the punishment is death then just let people die eventually. Why go out of your way to add to the punishment out of spite? There doesn't need to be a second death. It comes off less like the nature of sin just leading to death and more like a petty creator adding more punishment because he is angry.
I have a long argument I make to people, but it basically boils down to: "If Hell really does exist, then God has to be Evil." That's why Hell was the first belief I was easily able to let go of, as it just makes ZERO sense! Also, the idea that Good people are condemned to Hell for not believing, while Evil people CAN make it into Heaven through last-minute belief, makes a mockery of the very concept of Divine Justice! Has it not occurred to folks that this means that many innocent victims of rape and murder may actually have to spend eternity alongside their abusers/killers, and just be ok with it (unless they weren't believers, in which case they are burning eternally, despite being good people in life)?!
On top of all THAT, what kind of Heaven can there be when you KNOW people, whether they deserve it or not, are roasting in agony elsewhere? Maybe that's why the constant praise of God has to be endless, if you let it quiet down, you'll hear the distant screams of the damned. But don't complain about it...despite the fact that you made it, God can always let you know that there's always still room for one more down there...
(This is why I find the Eastern idea of Bodhisatvas more appealing: The idea that truly Good people just can not allow themselves to sit and enjoy heaven until ALL are saved from hell is FAR more indicative of love, compassion and forgiveness than anything I've heard about in the West.)
Thanks for sharing your thoughts. I had never considered those ideas before. Thanks for opening my mind to even more problems with the god of the Bible.
Let's see what we have today.
Hope you enjoy!
It’s very significant that in the geography where Christianity started, the dominant religion is Islam. Maybe I’m wrong.
Good point. Those regions were ignored because of theological disagreements over the nature of Christ.
Buddhism began in India and has almost died out there, but moved to and is very strong in other areas of southeast Asia. Perhaps christian beliefs were more in keeping with the culture of Greece and Rome than the culture of the Middle East, so it took hold with more force in the former and from there spread throughout Europe and then to the areas Europeans colonized. Maybe Islam is more in keeping with the culture of the Middle East, though it has spread to other distant parts of the world.
Prophecy. The gospel of Jesus would go out to the Gentiles, into every corner of the world.
@@BethJehovah There are still uncontacted tribes in the world so the gospel hasn't been spread to them. And the insularity of the North Sentinelese who would kill people who tried to come ashore their island has guaranteed and will guarantee that the gospel _won't ever_ be preached in every corner of the world.
In my malleable youth, 12 or so, I watched “The Omen” over at a friend’s house on cable. Throughout my childhood, I was certain that god would triumph in the end. After seeing this film (which I wrote off as silly in my adulthood), where people died gruesome deaths if the challenged Satan and there was no sign of god intervening and WORSE, the child who becomes the Antichrist in the story survives, I had a fearful thought: What if , in the end, Evil is the victor? There were two more sequels. In the third, the story hems and haws that god was triumphant. Still I thought: Why didn’t god intervene SOONER? Superman defeated Lex Luthor in record time, but the ultimate force for good in the universe is mute and not present? Again, I grew up and saw the “Omen” movies as schlock, but still the seed in my mind was planted and I couldn’t uproot it. Over time, I concluded god was either impotent or nonexistent. To think I owe part of my voyage to atheism to a horror flick where Leo McKern wanted his named scrubbed out of the credits. “The Omen” wasn’t the main thing that got the ball rolling towards godlessness, but it played its part.
Rambling aside, Brandon, you articulated this issue of god’s “defeat” far better than a 12 year old could!
As a Christian, I struggled with this for a long time. Thanks for the video Brandon. Very profound.
Valid and interesting points, Brandon
Thank you much!
Why all the red tape? God supposedly could have made it "perfect " the first time around. Obviously it was planned this way for God's amusement. There is no God and even if there was he doesn't care about anything but himself.
I'm still waiting for the explanation of how anything, other than what this tri-omni god's desires, will, wants etc, exists at all.
Wouldn't everything just be the way that God decided?... wanted?
Oh nevermind, its so illogical...
❤❤ Ya Brandon.
Great video.
lol, thank you!
A proper parent is never vindictive nor gleefully tormenting in the discipline of their offspring. Likewise, it is reasonable to espouse that an all-loving diety, who concurrently possesses all of the aforementioned characteristics, should never be vindictive regarding the punishment of its idiomatic children ❤Additionally, an omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent deity would have noooo reason to actively or passively permit genocidal abominations or a single of the other adjects horrors of this world 🌎 as he would any other means by which to bring about his ultimate stratagem.
1000%!
@@MindShift-BrandonI have been amalgating an essay style commentary regarding the AKtion-T4, the miniature Holocaust that preceded the Final Solution. Reading indepthly about the about the mental and physical anguish experienced by the victms of the Nazi horror show, as well as hearkening to the worst nightmare stories from CPS agents, encapsulates my articulations regarding the absolute unnecessity of the utmost horrors in this world 🌎 under a system ordained by a omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient diety. 😭😟😭
@MindShift-Brandon I'll finish my response later😅
@MindShift-Brandon Hement Mehta, a famous atheistic UA-camr personality and an author of several books, has done a scrupulously encapsulating count up of how many individuals are terminated by Yayweh within the pages of his purported holy word. Let's encourage you to produce a video that has a mirrored nature.
@@MindShift-Brandon Hement Mehta, a famous atheistic UA-camr personality and an author of several books, has done a scrupulously encapsulating count up of how many individuals are terminated by Yayweh within the pages of his purported holy word. Let's encourage you to produce a video that has a mirrored nature. Whose with me?
Love your videos and how you put everything across so logically and are so thorough on the biblical citations!
Thank you very much!
Another great video! I love your passion. Congrats on your success. You were great on The Line with Matt Dillahunty. I would love to see you do more of that. Wish Matt would have let to talk more, but that's Matt haha.
Thanks so much, Heather!
What really gets me is this: John 1:1-5 states that Jesus actually is God himself. That means Jesus committed all of the atrocities attributed to YHWH in the Old Testament. This notion of Jesus being meek & mild is a load of nonsense. Christianity is spiritual poison.
Justice is people getting what they deserve. Perfect justice is every person getting exactly what they deserve, no more and no less, at all times. If even once any person has gotten less (or more!) than they deserve, then perfect justice has already been falsified and can never be recovered. You can't fix perfect justice once it stops being perfect, all you can do is compensate, and compensation is a substitute for the failure of justice. The Problem of Imperfect Justice is vastly more of an issue than the Problem of Evil, because it could be the case that everyone is compensated and nobody is lost AND YET perfect justice can still have failed, so if a God is supposed to be perfectly just, I already know that God doesn't exist. The only way to argue otherwise is to claim that what we see is in fact perfect justice, that every infant who dies of starvation had it coming and every Wall Street thief who scams millions and walks off scot-free merited his windfall, a position so delusional it can't be taken seriously even as a what if. So either God doesn't exist, or whatever God does exist has no particular interest in operating justly, which makes them impossible to trust; who is to say you won't be betrayed or used and eventually "compensated" for it?.
Also, annihilationism in its traditional forms is still monstrous. God BRINGS PEOPLE BACK TO LIFE to murder them again, after judging them and calling them bad people. What kind of petty behavior is that? Just leave them dead if you don't want them around anymore!
Just went over the problem of evil in my philosophy of religion class. I didn't used to think it was that big of a problem for Theism, now its almost as big of a deal to me as divine hiddenness. That said I understand why it isn't a big problem for most Christians (and by extention atheists), and that's because the Bible specifically accounts for the existence of evil. So most Christians, rather than comparing the incompatibility of evil with the idea of a tri-omni God, instead compare the existence of evil against the Bible and then get the idea of a tri-omni God from the Bible. In other words, instead of seeing evil as evidence against a tri-omni God, they see evil as evidence for the truth of the Bible which they see as evidence for a tri-omni God.
Thats why your argument in this video is really good. It expresses the problem of evil in terms of the Bible, forcing the Christian to directly compare their idea of God against the existence of eternal suffering. I think too many Christians rationalize victory in terms of whether they personally get to heaven or not, and don't think about it in terms of others. I suspect thats partially resultant of the us vs them mentality thats so doninant in the culture, which diminishes the suffering of people outside their ideology.
The Christian can (partially) get around this by appealing to annihilationism, but doing so conflicts with the Bible (in my opinion) so you already need to lack a strong view in the innerrency of scripture. Then your using a more intuitive (and correct) idea of a tri-omni God and then the more general problem of evil starts to become more concerning.
well put, and yes many of these excuses is exactly what lead to these other ideas. Christians who couldnt rationalize it all working together found scriptural basis for annihilation or universalism etc. Thats the problem with a vague book of 800k words that has so many conflicting statements. If you dont like one version, you just say the next is the correct one.
This is a brilliant distinction. Thank you Brandon.
Appreciate that. Thanks so much!
I disagree with the notion that if one soul is lost in hell it’s a loss on Gods part. You study the Bible. You should know Gods ultimate Goal is to create the manifested sons of God the perfect vessels/ birthing of more Jesus like being. The fullness of salvation is not just about going to heaven. God subject the whole universe in corruption so the perfect farm environment can be made to create more Jesus Like beings. These being overcame the satanic nature forced upon them . They overcame the mark. You could it interpreted as they had the mark spiritually sin nature but were beheaded and beat it. Having judgment day why they were alive instead of after they die. They revive the spirit of Christ which some say is different from the Holy Spirit.
Okay we know how awesome Jesus is. But now through this sacrifice we can have at the very least 144,000 like him and more likely million potentially billion overcomes who qualifie to give birth to more Jesus like beings with their old ego removed in paradise. The universe as a whole would benefit tremendously from the birth of billions of Jesus like beings when they just had one before. Although not everyone in heaven will be such vessels Some are gold, silver, Bronze. The Apostle Paul labored for Christ to be formed in the Christian’s he raised.
@@MindShift-Brandonthe idea that revelation can be interpreted as a spiritual journey to salvation one experience internally as opposed to some apocalyptic event in the far future came from this brother m.ua-cam.com/video/7Dh3RT8v-bI/v-deo.html. I been in contact with him for many years now. He has claimed to seen hell and Jesus but claims it not eternal. His method of go through hell now why your alive so you can’t go through after death is definitely like an exploit in the system.or was it intentionally designed that way.
Another great one. Look forward to seeing you on Deep Drinks. I watched some of The Hang Up, but Matt yelling at callers gets old for me pretty quick. ;-) He's a brilliant guy but I really appreciate your demeanor. Hope you'll still be doing that call in show someday!
I intend to for sure, and thank you so much!
Yeah if my ultimate destiny is to end up in hell, I'd rather not have ever existed