This video was definitely a Magnum Opus on the subject. I think it was so nice of @imbeggar to do such a comprehensive video of the lousy apologetics, allowing you to shoot them down so succinctly. It was like he was setting up the pins just right for you to bowl a strike.
God created a world with no suffering, no pain, no grief or tragedy. And that world still exists to day.. for jellyfish. Hence they experience no joy, love, motivation either. Would you trade? Me neither.
@BenJones-d8p Or imagine saying "your child is in heaven PRAISING GOD for all eternity - and totally forgot about God letting them suffer a painful early death!" 😇
@BenJones-d8pYour child's biomass will be reabsorbed into the ecosystem and redistributed into new biological forms. In that sense, she will have an effectively infinite number of afterlives, provided life continues to exist in some form that's linked to the Earth's chain of being.
Pausing at 14:25 to note that I find it interesting that he doesn't acknowledge that anytime someone uses their "free will" to rape, enslave, rob, or murder *that takes away the victims free will to live as they please*. So in a system with truly free will for everyone, no one would be allowed to commit crimes against against other people's person or property. The system would cause the aggressor bots to freeze up if they tried, or allow the innocent bots to teleport out or throw up a force shield to protect themselves if threatened. Eventually, the evil-intentioned bots would learn, "Well, *that* doesn't work." and try something non-evil to fill their time. Or maybe they'd stubbornly continue to try doing evil, but since they couldn't actually harm anyone, all the good people could go on with their lives unmolested. There you go: Problem of evil solved, while retaining free will for everyone.
Same problem with Satan, except worse, because many denominations say Satan is irredeemable and can never be saved. But they do think humans can be. So... why does God allow Satan to go around violating human free will, dominating and misleading and tempting and insulting them, potentially resulting in their damnation? It can't be because God values Satan's free will to choose good, because Satan can no longer choose good. So like... make it so he can't interact with human beings at all? You don't have to kill him, just strip him of any power to influence the free will of beings who can still make a meaningful choice.
@@UryvichkGod says one thing, Satan says something to the contrary. Ball is in your court. The only thing the devil has in this scene is his words, and the only influence they have here is suggesting an alternative that goes against what you have been told before. You can either stick with the former and show your trust in God, which is to allow Him to influence you, or choose the latter, putting your trust in someone else and ceding yourself over to their influence in like fashion. Much like the Garden of Eden. The fruit was never the problem. It's trust.
@@christasimon9716yup. it’s one of many situations where apologists forget all of the elements of their belief system. they’ll make all these excuses about how the earth needed evil in order to be perfect or we’d just be robots or something, but then go on and on about how great it will be once we get to the place with no evil. it’s like they get amnesia. you realize you’re trying to sell an afterlife with no evil to me, right? in your efforts to explain away the problem of suffering, you’ve cut the legs off your sales pitch
The ironic thing about apologetics is that its primary purpose isn't to convince non-believers, but rather to ease the cognitive dissonance of believers who hold their faith primarily due to spiritual experiences or emotional reasons. For these individuals, any self-defeating argument is irrelevant because they believe that, in the end, God will make everything right. William Lane Craig once admitted that he would still hold his beliefs even if all the evidence contradicted them, because his experiences, filtered through a religious and cultural lens, are what he interprets as divine.
yes its for the choir for sure, my only hope is some of the choir sit in my pews for a few minute and get disillusioned with the lies they are being fed.
@@il.anshin yep. believing in god requires complete absence of reasoning, cognition and logical thinking. Otherwise the whole thing falls apart. That's why believers need to have "blind faith" so they don't question or analyze anything and remain in the bubble where they (falsely) feel safer.
The biggest problem with this "boring" argument is no one would KNOW life was boring!! All they would know is good and perfection is NORMAL! One of the major problems with evil is how NORMAL it is. Due to that we've become complacent, apathetic, disillusioned, hopeless, ect to the trauma, illness, pain, and suffering of others and at times ourselves. We've simply resolved ourselves to "it is what it is" because the world's issues are so severe what can we really do?
@@ayemiksenoj5254 I thought Atheists didn’t believe in objective morality. So how can you judge the existence or goodness of God by a standard you don’t think exists.?
@@andrewwilson9183, please excuse me but I'm really starting to wonder if people read or if they just feel compelled to say something? Did you READ what I said or feel compelled to comment? When and where did I say I was an atheist? Also, you don't have to believe in organized religion to believe in God. I personally know several people who aren't part of any religion and believe in God more than any religious person I ever met. So, after you answer my questions, I'll answer yours. I asked 3 just to be clear and I won't answer you until you answer all 3. I have to make sure you're reading what I say first.
@@ayemiksenoj5254 1. Yes I felt compelled, however from what I read it appeared as though you were supporting the video. Brandon did heart you after all. That is sufficient for all your questions. 2. I am aware that people can believe in God outside of any particular religion. I never claimed otherwise. You were also assuming.
@MindShift-Brandon ohhh, that actually would make more sense. Still a bad argument, but seems like a better point than "god delights in our suffering"... which actually does sound familiar for some reason 🤔. I guess I'd wonder how we'd even be capable of getting bored if we're perfect.
@@MindShift-BrandonFor what it's worth, the argument that we only seek struggles and require strife to avoid boredom because we are adapted to a world full of struggle and strife makes the same mistake as most arguments for the existence of God, which is assuming from the start that God exists or God's existence is the most likely explanation for any apparent anomaly (or in this case, that evolution is a real phenomenon or evolution is the most likely explanation for an anomaly in human nature). Of course, if we assume there is no evolution and genetics are, I dunno, explained by God making children resemble their parents as an aesthetic choice, we must ask _why God made us capable of boredom._ Also I realise that you axiomatically disagree with the idea that without struggle we become bored, but I disagree; That is not only not axiomatically false, there us overwhelming evidence that it is true. I think your mistake in reasoning, based on the video, is unintentionally assuming that as boredom is a type of misery and struggle and strife cause misery, struggle and strife cannot be a requirement to stave off boredom.
@@vitriolicAmaranth Boredom is an evolved characteristic of certain tetrapods that encourages us to explore and discover new resources to exploit or habitats to colonize. Most likely because the organisms that weren't as curious just hung around doing the same thing until all resources dried up and they died.
A chef is making a cake and while preparing the batter half a dozen cockroaches fall in. When guests at the restaurant are served the cake they have a feeling that something is very wrong and inquire to the chef. The chef admits that he allowed the cockroaches to fall in and that it was something that was just bound to happen. When the guests get mad about his carelessness other guests defend the chef and berate the guests that are mad saying that they wouldn’t have been able to do any better and in reality they should not have expected to have the cake any other way.
Well said. Except we’re not even just talking about a chef, we’re talking about the best possible chef. And yet not only would the best possible chef not do such a thing, your run of the mill chef wouldn’t either
My middle daughter was 10 years old before she found out some parents hit their children. She was horrified when she witnessed that at Walmart for the first time. Kids grow up just fine without physical punishment. Teaching and guiding by example produces much better adjusted adults. I have 3, beautiful, adult children to attest to my words.
As an old Boomer me and my brother were frequently given "the belt " even for minor transgressions .It hurt like hell. The same could be said of the other kids I knew. The parents didn't hesitate to use physical force to correct bad behavior. It was accepted as normal parental behavior. Even our teachers could use physical punishment in paddling a problem student. Me and bro and my friends turned out to be good productive citizens. I never had kids but I would have never hit them to correct behavior.
Yeah, I was never hit as a child and somehow I was the best behaved child around! Same with my brother. I genuinely can't think of any way it could've benefited us...much less benefited us in ways that could even come close to compensating for the incredible damage it would cause. (I already suffered terrible anxiety, without the fear of being physically assaulted at any moment.) Even when I hit puberty and broke my track record of perfect behavior (by self-medicating with the only substances I had access to, which were illegal drugs & alcohol)...physically assaulting me would have been the LAST thing that would've helped! I was already suicidal, in incredible mental anguish, and self-harming as an additional coping mechanism. The only thing that would have helped is the one & only thing that has helped: getting the officially prescribed medication I needed the whole time (because my brain actually needs additional drugs). It's terrifying to think about how many people would've looked at my situation and thought the only reason my "bad behavior" continued was because my parents weren't willing to hit me. 🤢 I am truly horrified when I imagine how my life would've gone had I been raised by Christian/religious extremists who believed their almighty God actively disapproved *not* beating me, and possibly would punish my parents if they didn't physically assault me...plus, they would definitely think my substance use & mental health issues were purely spiritual problems (if not demonic possession), only solved by prayer & physical punishment (maybe an exorcism too). 🤢🤮 My life was hard enough! 😭
@@sorryifoldcomment8596 I was beaten regularly as a child. It definitely didn't help my anxiety at all. I hope things go well for you. I know it's difficult at times, but it gets better.
@@sorryifoldcomment8596 I had a Christian friend at the time. Even though I stayed overnight a few times, after the cops were called to my house, his family dynamic was always odd to me. They weren't physically abusive, but they NEVER talked to each other. Not even a greeting when you walked into the house. I've always thought it was interesting how similar our childhoods were, even though they were very different on the surface. They were the family going to church 3 times per week with a nice house and lawn. I believe their intentions were good, but we don't necessarily get what we actually need from our parents. I can honestly say I feel pity for my father more than anything else. It's a cycle that's difficult to break. In a strange way, I think I was fortunate because it was very obvious that I needed help.
As a god with perfect foreknowledge, he’d be able to iterate on the program BILLIONS of times. He’d be able to fine tune all the variables in order to get the outcome he wants. According to this guy, the world is exactly how god wants it to be.
Weirdly, I'm not clear on what the difference would be between God imagining something and God actually creating it. Would God actually create every universe iteration to see how it goes, or is God somehow capable of imagining a universe without creating it? How would we know whether we're in an actually-created universe or one God just imagines?
@@Uryvichk That’s a good question concerning omniscience. I suppose it may be argued that God has active knowledge of events that take place, and passive or indirect knowledge of counterfactuals. In other words, by having a knowledge of the presence of certain things, there is also knowledge of the corresponding absences of that presence.
I think the only argument worse than "perfection is boring" is "evil/suffering is the refiner's fire." I taught elementary school for 38 years. If I had used any of the tactics the biblical God used to teach a lesson or to discipline I would be rightly incarcerated for life in solitary confinement.
@@MrFiddler1959 I thought Atheists didn’t believe in objective morality. So how can you judge the goodness or existence of God by a standard you don’t believe exists?
@@andrewwilson9183so you’re assuming that Atheists can’t have any moral compass because they don’t subscribe to any specific religion? Or worse give any examination of said religion simply because they don’t believe in it? Sad.
@@unbrokenativee I never once used the word religion. What I said was, you cannot simultaneously say that “the concept of God is evil” and “good and evil do not objectively exist”.
"Sure, God *could* make a universe without babies that get flesh eating disease & experience agony for their short life... but seeing babies suffer is just so much fun!!" - Christians, apparently "Sure, heaven is perfect & there is no suffering... but there are no babies in agony?? This place is BORING!" -Christians, apparently
@@JeffryBozes Yeah, I immediately started thinking about all the species I would simply not create. It would be so easy for me...definitely a lot easier than actually creating them. I would also have no trouble creating an ecosystem that didn't require them, if I had God's absolute power. Just...why??
the god of the bible is described as being able to create and destroy and resurrect at will, and exists in an eternal plane. why would this matter to him? also, your logic in your bottom paragraph is nonsense. jesus said his kingdom is not of this world. the people who reject him are the ones who choose this world and all of its evils. the ones who accept him desire to be with him in the plane he exists in. as to why he allows it at all: to show that man is so evil and foolish that he would choose all of it rather than anything better that involves him. unless you believe there is another way of escape of this world other than faith in Jesus of Nazareth, every belief in your worldview will, by default, serve to make you choose this world and choose all the evil in it. ie, you are no different than what you project about the creator, except you don't have the power to make it happen. you still want it, though
Remember that unless they were grown in a lab, every one of those babies is guilty of violating a womans bodily autonomy without her consent. A crime that is equivalent to grape, and rightly warrants capital punishment without any trial or due process. Skin disease is getting off easy.
@@_ben_miller Why do you assume it is a choice to not be raised in an environment that leads me to believe that a particular mythology/religion story is true?
@@beanpie2912 I thought Atheists didn’t believe in objective morality. So how can you judge the goodness or existence of God by a standard you don’t believe exists?
@@johngavin1175 I thought Atheists didn’t believe in objective morality. So how can you judge the goodness or existence of God by a standard you don’t believe exists?
Yep, that's the fundamental fatal flaw of the Free Will Defense: There is no good, principled, ethical reason why God should prefer the expression of free will to the point of allowing every other bad thing. Nothing about it is inherently good, at least not enough to be more valuable than everything else; and if it's only instrumentally good, then to whatever extent it results in the opposite of good, it shouldn't be valued by God.
@@Uryvichk another fundamental flaw is all of the evil that has zero relationship to free will. Natural disasters. Childhood cancer. There is immeasurable pain and suffering in this world. It serves no purpose and cannot be defending by free will. According to biblical logic God caused it with intention, rendering the bible logically impossible.
Funny how a perfect world without free will is existentially boring when an apologist is justifying the existence of suffering, but NOT existentially boring when the apologist is justifying the concept of Heaven
Alright so yes the guy he’s reacting to is bad at philosophy. I however have a better explanation of how to reconcile a word of suffering with the existence of God, if you would be interested.
@@andrewwilson9183 Well first, we should establish what you mean by "God", as everyone has their own definition of what God/a god is. So when you say "God", specifically what are you referring to? And also, does your definition of God include omnipotence, omniscience and omnibenevolence?
@@andrewwilson9183 I asked two separate questions, and you've only answered the second one. I still don't know what your actual definition of God is, merely that that definition includes omnipotence, omniscience and omnibenevolence.
34:07 Damn man, this brought tears to my eyes. You worded that perfectly. As an former Christian father in a Christian family: thanks for doing what you do.
To point out what you said, as an ex hardcore atheist, now Christian: You not following Christ doesnt make you a bad father. If one of your children becomes Christian, and you're against that, thats another case. The priest that does evil but follows Christ, ending in heaven, is from what i understand, a bit of a strawman argument, because yes, path to heaven is through Christ. However, if that love for Him is genuine, you're not gonna do evil. And if you do, you repent and you always improve. So the priest that does evil, cannot have a relation with Christ, as He is described in the bible (it can be an imagined Christ to fit his needs, so therefore a false Christ) In your case, from what i understand, God is just. If you were given information about Christ and you reject Him for your own satisfaction/superiority/pride etc, then thats bad news. However, (i assume you did this) you looked at your life, at knowledge presented, and concluded Christianity is fake, however you will apply Christ teachings to your children (love, humility, etc) ... I cant say whats gonna happen, but i cant say you will go to hell, but because He is just, you will not get tricked into hell if you genuinely dont deserve it. Sorry for the bad experiences with Christians, as an ex hardcore atheist, i can always relate to atheists ! Take care 😊
@@dasbus9834 Whenever they try to argue cosmology, they fail. Biology. Geology. Car design. In fact, they're all failures and almost always in ways you don't need to be an expert in order to spot the lies.
@@swagpenguin2151 there are people in africa who were made christian by people who genocided them and enslaved them, and those were justified by the bible
As a dude with Autism, Hydrocephalus, Has lost both my brothers and my stepsister for reasons that we're totally out of my control, Has more body issues than I'd like to admit. I could do a better job than this God, blindfolded, hands behind my back, and with a full blown Concussion. This God can shove it
I am also somebody that has autism, but I also have a rare disease on top of that called Tuberous Sclerosis that causes it. The main things I deal with are noncancerous tumors on my brain and cysts that grow on both of my kidneys. I have no doubt in my mind that I would’ve done a much better job than whatever supposedly created us. One thing I would do to start with as an example is: making it extremely punishable or hard for folks to get wealthy off of the backs of those who are suffering with an illness/disability no matter if it’s mental or physical.
According to the OC God made you that way and put you through all of that trauma because otherwise, your life would be boring! (Note he doesn't say who it's boring *for* )
@@terrellkirkman2078 Than that God is an absolute fucking dick for even allowing me to be born in the first place, assuming it knows I would feel this way, and get a one way ticket to the burning place because he set my ass up. Again, this God can take it's plan, flip it sideways and shove it up his "All Powerful, All Knowing" ass, I would put all Good, but we all know that's fucking false
Huh, my bad. Here I am thinking that woodworking and sewing and skiing and reading and sculpting are things I can do to stave off boredom. If only I had known the only way to not be bored is to be bad I could have saved myself a lot of missed time and missed opportunity.
@@funkypunkypine I thought Atheists didn’t believe in objective morality. So how can you judge the goodness or existence of God by a standard you don’t believe exists?
This was my issue growing up as a Methodist preachers kid with a sick mom and being poor. I was always upset how my dad served and the Bible says he takes care of his own we always seemed to be struggling and my mom never was healed. Basically, I prayed and served myself even going to Bible school and always was met with silence. So if there is some plan I'm not aware of it. Not to mention the plethora of fictional universes that are awesome. Why didnt god make star trek, pokemon world, insert better worlds we created.
TBH the idea that God is a barely adequate software engineer who likes reality shows like Locked Up Abroad and 90 Day Fiancé over Star Trek and Pokémon makes more sense than most Christian apologetics.
The scapegoat for them in this situation is "it's god's plan that you suffer and things will eventually get ebtter" over and over until something finaly does go right, or it never does and that's also "God's plan". Like with what happen with the Trump rally atendee that died protecting his family from getting shot. Very convienant for them.
@@kevincrady2831 but imagine how exciting it is for him to watch and see if the ani-vax people can bring it back? Creating a world without small pox (or any other disease) is like creating a reality competition without an elimination ceremony .
On the 2023 earthquake in Turkey that killed over 45,000 people there was a story that totally demolished me. There was this man who was working when the quake hitted. When he returned home, his entire neighborhood was gone. It was a set of six story buildings. He lived with his elderly mother, his wife, his two boys and one girl. While looking through the rubble the found the girl's arm . She was alive under tons of debris. There was no way to extract her. The man sat next to her on a chair, holding her hand as she slowly died asking him to save her. She died. The girl was already decomposing, the man was still there holding her hand. His eyes lost. I cannot imagine what was in his mind. He lost his entire family. His entire neighborhood. And for what? Is someone gonna have the balls of quoting Job on me? I don't give a shit about the divine plan. If the plan is more important than the suffering of the innocent,then there is no benevolent god. Is a cruel sadistic overlord. I don't know what happened to that man. But the image if him holding his daughter's hand from under the rubble will forever haunt me.
it's a long read but please read this You understand a lot more............... Before I begin, I want to acknowledge something upfront: words often feel hollow in the face of overwhelming tragedy like this. What that man went through is beyond heartbreaking. No human being should endure such pain, and any answer we try to offer has to begin from a place of humility and respect for the depth of his suffering. I don’t claim to have a perfect answer. But I’ll try to offer a perspective that grapples with both the agony of this situation and the profound questions it raises. The objection here is clear, and it cuts deep: How can anyone reconcile this kind of unspeakable suffering-of a father watching his child die slowly, unable to save her-with the belief in a benevolent, all-powerful God? Isn’t such suffering proof that God either doesn’t exist or, worse, that He is indifferent or cruel? So, the first thing we have to admit is that this suffering feels like a cosmic betrayal. Not just of the father, but of all of us. And when we're betrayed, we look for someone to blame, and in this case, God becomes that target. And rightly so, because if God exists and allowed this, doesn’t He bear the ultimate responsibility? Now, let’s take this head-on. The idea that God has a ‘divine plan’ can feel deeply unsatisfying in situations like this. It feels almost callous to suggest that this father’s loss was part of some grand narrative. So, if there is a God, how do we make sense of His silence in such moments? There are a few things to consider, none of which erase the suffering, but they do force us to think deeper about the nature of the divine. First, we have to reject a simplistic view of God’s plan, one where God micromanages every event and deliberately designs every tragedy. If God were a puppet master pulling every string, then yes, we would be right to call Him cruel. But what if, instead, God has created a world with genuine freedom-freedom in human choices, freedom in nature-and that freedom comes with risk, randomness, and the possibility of immense suffering? What if God is not the architect of every event, but the force that seeks to heal and redeem even the worst moments You mentioned Job, and I get it-Job’s story often feels like the ultimate cop-out when it comes to suffering. But maybe there’s something deeper there than just ‘God works in mysterious ways.’ In the story of Job, God doesn’t give easy answers to suffering; instead, He challenges Job by showing him the vastness and complexity of the universe, a universe that operates on principles far beyond human comprehension. But here’s the kicker: God never dismisses Job’s pain. He never minimizes it. Instead, Job is invited to wrestle with his grief, his anger, and his sense of injustice-because these feelings are real and valid But here’s where the real existential challenge comes in: If God doesn’t exist, does that make the situation any better? Does it erase the suffering or make it more bearable? If there is no God, no transcendent reality, then suffering like this becomes pure absurdity. It has no meaning, no purpose, no hope. The father’s pain, his daughter’s death, all of it becomes just a cruel twist of fate in a meaningless universe. But if there is a God, even one who we don’t fully understand, then there is at least the possibility of redemption. Maybe, and I emphasize maybe, this suffering can be transformed-not erased, not justified, but transformed-into something that we can’t yet see It’s not a comforting answer, but it’s a profoundly different view of reality. Either the universe is utterly indifferent, or there is a God who grieves with us, who suffers with us, and who ultimately promises to make things right, even if we can’t see it in the moment. And perhaps, this is the hardest thing to accept: that there is meaning and hope, even in the face of unimaginable suffering, but we may never fully grasp it in this life I know that’s not a tidy answer. There’s no ‘silver lining’ to a tragedy like this. But maybe, just maybe, the existence of a God who allows freedom, who weeps with us, and who ultimately offers redemption is not as absurd as it first seems. Maybe, when all else falls apart, we’re left with two choices: despair in a meaningless universe or cling to the hope that somehow, in ways we can’t understand, suffering will be redeemed. I’ll leave you with that to think about
This is heartbreaking. Some assholes out there get hard at the thought of exploiting these types of tragedies, for thé sake of entertainment. I guess the world not being boring is the divine plan. Smh. Fkin ridiculous.
This was one of the biggest problems I have when I was doubting. There was no good answer to all the suffering and evil if God was as all-powerful, all-loving, all-forgive, all-knowing, etc. Thank you for talking about all the cop-outs that results in these questions. Huge like!!! I'm going to save this for future use because I know I'll need it in my back pocket.
Defending god is like defending an abusive husband/ boyfriend/girlfriend/ parent, defending god is basically the same as defending and making excuses for an abuser It's unhealthy and toxic
If things go well, then it's all because of god.. If things go bad, it'S because our fault to be tempted by evil... Exactly like an abusive partner / abusive parent!
@@pratiwi16 oh, I got confused Because my parents are extremely religious and then and they're crazy religious friends make the most extreme insane excuses for god Very very offensive to survivors of abuse of any kind , so I wasn't sure if you were also making excuses for god AKA the man or men who invented god
So this guy watched the Matrix and heard Agent Smith’s story about the first Matrix was paradise and perfect. But people couldn’t handle it and it crashed and the lost many crops. Definitely reminded me of that scene.
Absolutely! Frank turek got nailed by some dude who’s name I forget rn in a debate when he brought up how sin coming into the world is Gods fault for placing the tree in the garden, while knowing they were going to eat from it before placed it. Franks rebuttal was to suggest that God “couldn’t do better” I.e. this was the best world he could create. Immediately diminished the characteristic of omnipotence lol
@@JDrocks4ever Honestly, I don't know why they ever thought it was a good idea to claim their god was literally omnipotent and omniscient. It would save them a hell of a lot of trouble to just admit that's it's an incompetent loser who can't figure out how to build a halfway decent lifeform without filing it full of hundreds of obvious design flaws. Their whole moral philosophy is based on "might makes right" anyway, so what does it matter if their god is a moron? They would still be obligated to obey him out of terror of his unquenchable bloodlust, so why the massive PR campaign? Oh... right... it's because he's not real. 🤭
@@JDrocks4ever God can't, again do away with necessity so it is consistent that there are things God can't do while being omnipotent and theist since the middle ages never denied such a thing. Or else you get things such as God being able too create a square circle or doing things against his nature(he can't) and this was affirmed since the middle ages. There are other things you could respond to Frank Turek on this matter as a rebuttal, but i am just here to clarify that this response does not necessarily diminishes omnipotence. I will have to add that i'm doubtful about the specific christian God existant and it seems i have to say such a thing before people start saying things about my intentions.
@toonyandfriends1915 listing a bunch of things god can't do certainly does diminish his omnipotence. I am also omnipotent, if you don't count all of the things I can't do.
And so did almost every polytheist adherent of every mythology ever. They never had to pretend their gods are of any embodiment of moral virtue, and are instead someone powerful you beseech for favors, and respect for their authority.
@@Uryvichk It's funny how God's covenant with Abraham contains almost no real duties and obligations for God to fulfill, but requires Abraham's descendents to follow a plethora of rather arbitrary rules and a hard non-compete clause. Old Abe should have hired a lawyer before signing. Suddenly that Baal guy looks like a really swell deal.
That argument doesnt make sense because you cant describe a perfect God because you dont have all the knowledge and capability. Anything resembling "perfection" coming from you would be heavily tainted (and everyone, im not attacking you haha) Also, this perfect God gave us freedom of will ... So if someone wants to be an apologetic, they can. I just didnt understand your argument, im sorry
@@newme1589 Where does it say that god gave us free will/freedom of will in the bible? I'm not convinced that this god gave us anything because I'm not even convinced that this god even exists.
A perfect god would communicate more clearly and not need the interpreters to speak for him and get it all mixed up. Also, why would I only show myself in one form in one small part of the world at a time when documentation is lowest
The problem with the “boring” issue he stated is that boredom is an emotion that we feel and perceive as the flawed and imperfect human beings that we are. If God made us perfect and content, we would not even fathom the concept or feeling of boredom because we would not want for anything outside of what was set before us and programmed into us. Sure it’s boring to “us” as we currently exist, but that’s because we crave drama, excitement, highs and lows in order to have a sense of fulfillment and value. Perfectly designed beings wouldn’t need that to even have a sense of something being boring.
One issue with the whole free will argument is desires we're born with. I was born with a high amount of empathy. I don't WANT to harm anyone. I feel bad when I make others feel bad. So, do I lack free will? Do people who are just genuinely really nice and good people lack free will? Do priests who prey on children have more free will than me when their actions are also a result of a desire they were born with? Free will goes out the window when we're not all on the same playing field.
@@blueStarKitt7924 Some probably are since it's sooooo widespread. Others it might be a consequence of their upbringing which they had no control over.
Ok but right from the beginning: no, if I was a PERFECT being I wouldnt even have the desire or want to create anything (nevermind not be able to create something without suffering). Because me just being me is perfect enough as is. No need for anyone or anything else👌
@@justadude7752 indeed, if that's how you feel, then there are options available. Options that I and everyone else would never want you to take. But also options that can heal you and make you come out the other side, like I did. I just can't fathom a world in which we don't exist. Bodies trapped, in nothing but blackness, without the ability to do anything.
One of my best and dearest Christian friends asked me (after I admitted I'm agnostic), "Are you just letting your emotions get the best of you since you god has not intervened in so much suffering?" My response was that it would be emotionally easier to believe in a loving god that cares about not just me, but the rest of the world." She didn't have a response. Thank you Brandon for this excellent video. I am always blown away with your ability to show, with scripture, the audacity of this god.
@@CJoyArt I thought Atheists didn’t believe in objective morality. So how can you judge the goodness or existence of God by a standard you don’t believe exists?
@@andrewwilson9183 hey how about you do your own research agnostic means a person who believes that nothing is known or can be known of the existence or nature of God or of anything beyond material phenomena; a person who claims neither faith nor disbelief in God. so not an athiest
Comparing humanity to a computer program is so idiotic because the engineers can pull the plug or reset the program at literally any time, like God who is outside of Time and Space
They could also pull out one person, one instance of the code, run debug on it and do whatever changes, pop it back into a smaller simulation to see if the patch worked after running all their pre-checks, before putting it into general use. So damned many options for the engineers, including rewinding time locally (since they apparently have COMPLETE logs of everything already) or just .. yeah. God would have literally infinite better options than Original Sin, Heaven and Hell and natural disasters and all the BS.
@@Nick-Nasti I thought Atheists didn’t believe in objective morality. So how can you judge the goodness or existence of God by a standard you don’t believe exists?
Exactly like what a childhood teacher of mine said... No matter how good you are as a person, if you don't believe in god, you will end up in hell.. But if you are a bad person and do lots of bad things, but in the end, you surrender yourself to god and ask for forgiveness, every bad things will be forgiven and you're gonna go to heaven My brain as a child could not Accept it, so does my brain as an adult now
Let's see... God created hell because not believing in him is infinitely horrible, yet he isn't going to show you he exists well enough to make you believe......or......Priests invented the idea of hell in order to scare people into accepting the religion that supports them as priests. Which of these two is more likely?
@@TaylorReedHudson Do you not realize how messed up that whole idea is so everyone that never believed in their particular god gets torched forever not very loving or just.
@@MarkMiller-gt5tu I thought Atheists didn’t believe in objective morality. So how can you judge the goodness or existence of God by a standard you don’t believe exists?
Be nice. Horseshit is very useful and is good in the garden. It holds a lot of moisture. Use Carnivore shit as an insult because it stinks to high heaven just like apologetics. Pun intended.
I think the analogy of a computer simulation really obscures the fact that we're talking about thinking feeling beings here. I think most people, if faced with the choice of creating one of those two simulations, if they were reminded that these are real thinking feeling beings they were about to create, would create the perfect first world to avoid having all the blood on their hands from the other one.
Before going further in the video, one problem I found with ImBeggar's argument is the statement he does later on that a "permanent punishment" (alluding to eternal hell), this while small, is a devastating flaw because as you all know, no crime deserves infinite punishment. This is a problem that makes the PoS infinitely worse
@BenJones-d8p Meanwhile, you're sentenced to go there for lying to Nazis to protect Jews. And next to you, a career politician who told nothing but self-serving lies. God's "justice"!
@@MindShift-Brandon Honestly, it's kind of refreshing to hear a Christian say that. I personally value personal accomplishment, but the Bible story condemns it. I think he'd have a ghost of a point, if he weren't trying to argue on behalf of Christianity.
@@incredulouspasta3304 I thought Atheists didn’t believe in objective morality. So how can you judge the goodness or existence of God by a standard you don’t believe exists?
@@andrewwilson9183 1. Some atheists believe in objective morality, and some don't. 2. Subjective morality doesn't imply there is no standard. A subjective standard is still a standard.
I do love how, in order to defend their "tri-omni" God, they have to make his utterly incompetent, moronic, and an absolute rat-bastard. Of course, the tri-omni thing is so obviously a retcon to the mythology, that it alone creates all sorts of issues in elevating a former war-god into the entirety of his pantheon.
@@firebornliger I thought Atheists didn’t believe in objective morality. So how can you judge the goodness or existence of God by a standard you don’t believe exists?
@@andrewwilson9183 What you have just claimed is subjective morality. Moral standards that change a great deal over the course of the thousands of years the book was written, and thus change drastically within the book.
@@andrewwilson9183 "what standard," The standard that causing direct harm for your own gain is some degree of wrong. Reductive, perhaps, but the baseline must be somewhere. This scales from killing an animal (or plant) for food being not wrong at all, as long as you attempt to not waste it. To many forms of harm being inflicted upon another human for nothing more than your own emotional fulfillment being drastically evil. This is the start of where your God becomes, not only amoral, but actively evil. In your mythology, all things, even the spirits of evil that he created, are within his control. He allows them to run rampant in the world to, in the words of the scripture, increase his glory. He lets evil exist simply for his own pride.
@@James-wv3hx I thought Atheists didn’t believe in objective morality. So how can you judge the goodness or existence of God by a standard you don’t believe exists?
@@andrewwilson9183 When I was 4 years old and heard about a talking snake I knew it was a scam. And when I was 8 years old my friend and I were walking behind a Church and the Pastor came out with a stick and told us to knock off the beautiful yellow flowers on acres of land because they were evil weeds. We just walked away. That creep had NO business telling us what to do! He was trying to groom us. Ammon Hillman says that Jesus was a pedo child sex trafficker. He explains it in Graffic details on the Danny Jones Podcast. He refuses any money offered to him. And he says that Preachers are hucksters and cowards because none will debate him.
@@andrewwilson9183 When I was 4 years old I thought Jesus was gay because he loved to wash men's feet and rub oil on each other's bodies like at P Diddy freakoffs. And that it's a sin to have sexual thoughts about women. Do Christian men have to think of Jesus to get an erection? Ammon Hillman says that Jesus was a pedo child sex trafficker in his interview on the Danny Jones Podcast.
@@AssassinoJake Most Christians don’t believe that all non Christians are necessarily damned. Salvation is in a persons inner positive disposition towards God
@@andrewwilson9183 Do not keep trying to convince non believers you and I believe in a beautiful reality and that is what God wants He wants us to believe with our faith he is real. Bless you 🙏
I sometimes use the expression god-goggles, but really it's god-blinkers or a god-blindfold. Once you lock your thinking into "god-dunnit", and that god is a tri-omni god, you have to ignore a lot of things to retain that way of thinking. It curtails curiosity and imagination.
As a quote from the fictional character in Fullmetal Alchemist: Brotherhood, Fuhrer King Bradley once said: “God is nothing but a construct created by man to inspire fear and promote order”!
@@jordanrobinson9064 I thought Atheists didn’t believe in objective morality. So how can you judge the goodness or existence of God by a standard you don’t believe exists?
@@andrewwilson9183 Objective Morality is a human concept that only exists within humanity on Earth, not the entire cosmos itself, that is why atheist denies its existence.
You know that feeling when someone says something and you go, “that’s exactly what I was thinking, I just didn’t know how to put it into words and articulate it”…that’s how I feel whenever I watch these videos. Thank you, Brandon🙌🏼
@@AV-of6yj I thought Atheists didn’t believe in objective morality. So how can you judge the goodness or existence of God by a standard you don’t believe exists?
Agreed. There are other atheist UA-camrs that I think might be a little more entertaining, but here he always gets straight to the point and hits the nail on the head so hard in ways that are just undeniable.
Brandon!! This really is your magnum opus. So eloquently and intelligently articulated. It’s very interesting that suffering is what seems to make so many people turn toward/need religion. It was the opposite for me; facing the realities of immense suffering is what made me turn away from religion altogether. The magnitude of suffering that exists in this world should be enough to break any theological spell a person may be under. The fact that people see this suffering and double down defending god, even becoming pompous and narcissistic about it is absolutely mind blowing. Maddening and sinister! Thank you for your stellar work. Your channel has become my favorite!
Thats the point, when you overfocus on your own suffering and feelings (narcissism) you belive on a personal being that somehow gives meaning to your life. when you focus on the whole picture, other people and creatures then you stop believing in personal gods.
@@MindShift-BrandonI can't help but reinforce the point. This may be the best video that any Atheist could possibly make, I really don't see anyone doing a better job than you.
@@infinitedeath1384 I thought Atheists didn’t believe in objective morality. So how can you judge the goodness or existence of God by a standard you don’t believe exists?
I think religion was the first attempt at answering questions. It was the first attempt at philosophy. But as the age of religion increased, so did the number of opportunists and conformists.
Imagine programming these simulations in a way where there's freedom, but only between good choices. There a bot could choose between excercise or visiting their grandma, we just erase the possibility of thinking about, oh idontknow, child abuse. No rewriting of anything, no monitoring bad thoughs, just not even having the capacity to from the get go. We could have greatness in exploring the universe, in developing art, in teaching one another stuff, all without things like cancer. Maybe the programmes wouldn't find such a world as interesting, but why is their opinion the only one that matters here and not the ones from their test subjects?
Good cannot exist without evil. If you could put a computer chip in your child's brain to force them to only ever do or be good, would you? Do you not see the ethical problems that arise when robbing someone of their agency? Would your kid be better off living like some sort of ant drone, only doing what you tell them to do, or would it be better if they had the ability to be evil but chose to be good instead?
@@DIYWeekend no. I'm not talking about forcing people to follow one straight path, but to choose between a giant collection of good paths. That doesn't take agency away, and makes for a better world where cancer and child abuse are not concepts one could even consider
@@DIYWeekend against what god/the programmers knew could happen. They are said to be all knowing after all. If this seems strange, consider they designed a heavenly place where the good bots go where no evil happens, so they could've just done that from the start
@@DIYWeekend "Good cannot exist without evil. If you could put a computer chip in your child's brain to force them to only ever do or be good, would you?" No, because I don't believe in violating someone else's consent, but you've poisoned the well by phrasing it this way. Let's remove the well-poisoning and ask the real question: Would YOU put a computer chip in YOUR OWN brain to force yourself to only ever do good? The answer is yes, yes I would. Obviously I would. Why wouldn't I? The chip makes it so that I can only ever do or be good. That's good, by definition. I want that. I SHOULD want that, because I should desire to do more good things and fewer bad things, and this chip lets me do only good things and no bad things. So obviously I should get the chip installed in my brain. Would you not? Why do you want the ability to do evil? What possible reason could you have for leaving open the possibility of not doing good? Do you WANT to do evil? You see, when the question is put this way, suddenly it no longer is quite the gotcha you might think it is. It is in fact perfectly rational to render yourself unable to do wrong and only able to do good. Everyone of sound mind should get such a chip installed, provided it is safe and can't malfunction and actually does what it claims to do.
Also, he can't suffer adversity (well, except for that one time when he incarnated as a human and had a really bad weekend for your sins), so he can't experience strength, victory, or heroism. Glory hog that he is, that must make him utterly miserable. Maybe that's why he's such a giant torture-monster.
Admittedly I have a friend from the Dominican Republic, going to college in the US, who says there’s more free will there, although it’s less safe. People do get used to their environments
Hearing problem of evil apologetics makes me wanna stick tooth picks in my eyes. Great video so far, every point you're making is on point. I appreciate you and what you do
OMG.. so many valid points man.. Every Christian needs to watch this.. the only answer is to say ‘his ways are not our ways’ cos there’s no way to explain this logically
@@timothymulholland7905 I thought Atheists didn’t believe in objective morality. So how can you judge the goodness or existence of God by a standard you don’t believe exists?
28:09 "Oops! Does that offend someone?" Had me rolling. It is so ridiculous when you say it out loud. Thank you for continuing to take on subjects like this. It is so helpful in navigating the BS engrained in my thinking.
The people who think a peaceful world would be boring. Are not creative. People would be more open and fun in general. If they didn't have to worry about so many things. If they realized how much suffering stifles/restricts people.
This truly is your best video, Brandon! Mazel tov! You could not be more correct: if an existence w/o suffering is "boring" (the most insipid excuse that I've ever heard), then how will that change in heaven?
@@andrewwilson9183 Let's instead call it suffering. Physical suffering requires no philosophical standard of good or bad. Pain beyond a certain threshold is objectively bad for the animal experiencing it. A gazelle having its bones crushed under the force of a lion's bite is objectively bad for the gazelle. I know where your question is leading, and it doesn't work with physical pain.
My friend is a biologist who yesterday told me that in some parts of the world praying mantises catch small birds, firmly hold them with their strong arms and eat them alive. How exactly is this level of suffering necessary for the free will of humans?
In Imbeggar’s example he has the individuals given the concepts of right and wrong when they were created. So not like the Genesis account where knowledge of right and wrong is only obtained after eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. You need knowledge to be able to resist the temptation but the temptation is the knowledge. Insane.
Not to mention that post-fall, whatever the "embedded goodness & evil" software patch is an absolute joke. PROVE that all societies, for all time, didn't accept at least ONE violent, oppressive, dismissive, ignorant with no ability, or understanding to push back on it. They may have some consensus on some, but the point is one disables the patch for that time & place.
I know right, and that’s on top of how ridiculous it is to put the “do not touch!” Tree right smack dab in the middle of their living area (aka the garden).
@@norrecvizharan1177 Yep, putting the tree there and then creating the snake to tell them to eat from it. Seems like this deity was literally doing everything in his power to make them disobey him. Omniscient yet pretends like he is giving them a choice. He knew what the result would be. It’s like a game of “how can I mess with them to keep myself entertained.”
@@MindShift-BrandonI bet it was very intentional also. He didn’t pick the plan in Genesis because it would make his deity look bad. He picks a different one. How can one improve on perfection? 🤪
Haha, so the "engineers" who can intervene into the thoughts of their "robots" have to have a mediator now to communicate their thoughts and intentions for them? Perfectly logical conclusion.
@@andrewwilson9183 What God? Which God? The one who wants to be worshipped "above all other Gods " , but remains hidden, behaves like a typical tribal god and has just as much agency in your life as a Marvel character? Groovy 👍🏼 let me know when you can actually show that.
Dang even a world without human trafficking alone would be so much of a better place. And the lack of trafficking would somehow make this world boring? That’s a serious stretch
@@jamie5mauser I thought Atheists didn’t believe in objective morality. So how can you judge the goodness or existence of God by a standard you don’t believe exists?
@CrabO2 Your statement is irrelevant to my statement. You do not believe in objective good. As for human trafficking, God allows it, thus it is good somehow, though it still violates the prescriptions of providence
If I created my own world, I wouldn't make disease a thing. I wouldn't make psychopaths incapable of empathy. I wouldn't make a world of total perfection, but it wouldn't have extreme unnecessary suffering either.
Pointless suffering perfectly cancels out the claim of a loving, compassionate all powerful god. God does not "allow" suffering, He CREATES suffering. He is the Creator of all things. The twisted logic of mister anonymous @imbeggar is a perfect example of what religion (god belief) does to an otherwise intelligent person. This is how you share and spread cognitive dissonance.
@@JamesRichardWiley I thought you atheists didn’t believe in objective morality. So by what standard do you assume that suffering is bad, and that God shouldn’t cause suffering?
Proposal for free-will preserving world patch 4.0: 1. Children under age 3 are immune to natural disasters, infection and cancer. 2. A person who's suffering can accept heaven and immediately die. (Engineers confirmed these patches don't break free will or turn everyone into robots.)
@@adriani9432 Apparently, some people may want cancer, or to cause cancer, or to overcome cancer, or to cure cancer. I figure 3yo is about the emotional age of Adam and Eve's sin so we start getting into conflict with the Bible at some older ages. Apparently, God is mighty invested in free will until you die.
@@thomashugus5686 I thought you atheists didn’t believe in objective morality. So by what standard do you assume that suffering is bad, and that God shouldn’t cause suffering?
Brandon, I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again, although I admire and respect all of your work, it’s these videos that you present with such passion, fire, honesty, and vulnerability that really have the greatest impact in my opinion. It’s one thing to break down arguments with rationality and a scholarly approach, it’s quite another when you simply come at this from a human being and present the thoughts and experiences that you’ve endured when engaging with Christianity. I can so relate to everything you’ve said here. Thanks for another incredible video. And that dude’s video that you deconstructed was absolutely absurd. It amazes me that Christians would actually think so little about the content they’re creating.
@@GarrettRHall I thought Atheists didn’t believe in objective morality. So how can you judge the goodness or existence of God by a standard you don’t believe exists?
@andrewwilson9183 I was referring to the problem of evil in a zoroastrian dualistic context. Evil can be explained with zoroastrianism because there is a separate God of evil called Angra Maniyu that was not created by the 'good' god Ahura Mazda. I'm obv simplifying the issue, but that's the general context. As for my own morality, now I can't speak for all atheists, but I tend to get my sense of good and evil from my ability to empathize with others.
@@VelmadeM0naco My argument is that if there is no objective good or evil, then God if real, is morally neutral. So you can’t simultaneously claim that the idea of God is evil and that objective morality doesn’t exist simultaneously.
To me one of his mistakes is saying we have to make a simulation world that exactly mirrors the real world. Many people I have talked things over with would have made a different world in the first place. Many have said they would eliminate predation or animal suffering. So this guys proof is just I'm making stuff up? How is it an inevitable effect of intervention that the simulation would crash? I mean this guys microphone glitched what he really said was "everything worked out and it was perfection."
@@leslieyancey5084 I thought Atheists didn’t believe in objective morality. So how can you judge the goodness or existence of God by a standard you don’t believe exists?
@@DAYSE368 I thought Atheists didn’t believe in objective morality. So how can you judge the goodness or existence of God by a standard you don’t believe exists?
I think the "you'd have done it the same way" argument is so privileged. Imagine going to a starving child in Turkana and tellin him, "if you had God's power and were the one who made it, you'd have made it so you'd still have to slowly starve to death ".
@@RegalLouise247 I thought Atheists didn’t believe in objective morality. So how can you judge the goodness or existence of God by a standard you don’t believe exists?
The amount of suffering that happened on the island of Haiti/Hispaniola alone is enough to show this god is not all loving or all powerful or either. From human caused suffering to 250,000 people dying because of an earthquake.
@@Nero-Caesar I thought you atheists didn’t believe in objective morality. So by what standard do you assume that suffering is bad, and that God shouldn’t cause suffering?
@@andrewwilson9183 My own subject morality sees people being trapped under rubble and slowly dying as bad. And anyone who caused it or let it happen morally evil
Thank you so much for your compassion on those of us who experienced abuse 😢 I would have rather never been born than to have to live through the abuse and the aftermath of what it does to the mind. It challenges my faith every single day. My Christian community practices so much toxic "positivity" that I feel more compassion from atheist. So thank you ❤
28:59 Oh my god, this is so funny. "The world is unfair, but afterward, there will be perfect justice." For me, that has always been the biggest tell that this was a religion invented by people. It is the ultimate revenge fantasy. "Yes, everything is unfair now, but just you wait! In the end, the bad people will get what they deserve, and you will be rewarded!" It's pure cope.
I was raised in the church. I still believed even after getting molested by my stepdad. I hated my girl parts and prayed to be a boy. At 66, I no longer believe. Why did God let this happen? Why the innocent children? Ruined my life. Kept thinking I must be doing something wrong and bad. I now believe in myself and I am happy, I was never happy with God.
@@cherylmcconnell4380 I thought Atheists didn’t believe in objective morality. So how can you judge the goodness or existence of God by a standard you don’t believe exists?
@@MindShift-Brandon I appreciate that. Thank you. I've been looking for answers since it happened and continued happening until I moved away with relatives.
Conscience as proposed by Christianity is putting a bias into people's thinking and behaviour. That's already infringing on free will, regardless of how subtle it may seem. So much for the "absolute control" vs. "absolute freedom" dichotomy.
@@dasbus9834 I thought Atheists didn’t believe in objective morality. So how can you judge the goodness or existence of God by a standard you don’t believe exists?
@@dasbus9834 I do not understand your argument. Yes we humans have a conscience, in as much as we have an intellect. But the will is free to defy the conscience.
@@andrewwilson9183 _I thought Atheists didn’t believe in objective morality_ Some do so you'd be wrong here. _So how can you judge the goodness or existence of God by a standard you don’t believe exists?_ I didn't. However it's certainly possible to point out the inconsistencies of a position without subscribing to it. _I do not understand your argument_ That does indeed seem to be the case.
My version of the problem of evil has always been: Why do animals suffer? If you want to say that human suffering is caused by human sin (original sin or otherwise) or that suffering was necessary for human growth (intellectual or spiritual), then why do dogs get cancer? Why do birds and every other animal suffer from parasites? Why do wildfires burn dear and koala bears to death? Even if you can make some kind of excuse for human suffering, why do animals have to suffer? What good can possibly come from an animal drowning or dying from dehydration and thirst?
The old answer was, and I'm being quite serious here, that animals just couldn't suffer. You basically have to deny that they can to make any sense of these theodicies. The problem is, people darn well know their pets can suffer, and research has shown how insightful and empathetic some animals are (such as crows). Everybody knows animals can feel pain, so the question comes roaring back.
That is one main argument against a benevolent deity. I love animals. As a child, I could not understand why a god would create a world in which animals had to be killed for other animals to survive. Even the intense suffering and savagery the animals endured such as being eaten alive made me realize that there is no loving god. It is really a brutal world. Also, the vast destructive natural catastrophes that continually plague our planet prove there is no god that gives a crap about his creation.
Great break down. Free will, as its used in these type of arguments, always feels incoherent to me. As a programmer with advanced AI programming experience, the only way's I can make an AI who can make non-predictable choices is via a random number generator (and even then technically true random doens't exist in programming, it would be theoretically possible to predict just not reasonably for a human). The reason an AI who isn't relying on a RNG to decide its actions might act in a way I didn't expect is not because its choices weren't predictable, weren't controller by the input I gave them, but because I lacked the mental capability to grasp how the programming I gave it would respond to all the inputs it received that led up to that unpredicted action. In other words, the only way for god to make an intelligence whose actions said god couldn't predict, would be if said god themselves lacked the intelligence necessary to anticipate the results of their programming. Saying free will is even a possibility for creatures a god made is basically calling that god, if not dumb, at least sup optimal in intelligence. Even then, the actions of that creature would still all be the result of the intelligence that god gave it, 100% controlled by that god, just said god wouldn't have the intelligence to realize they were, say, giving a creature an intelligence which would make them be a serial unaliver at the time they were bestowing it, but they WERE still the one who did it, that creature could be no other way then the way the creator made them, so the responsibility would fall on the creator themselves for that creatures actions. They would still, effectively be a controller robot, just the controller would be one who didn't have the capacity to grasp the impact of the control they were weilding.
@@andrewwilson9183 As far as I can tell the biggest difference between human Will or the Will of any other animal, and the Will a computer program has, is that as of 2024, we currently have a better understanding of how to predict and control the latter. But we're getting there in the former, as we continue to make strides in understanding how our brains and their unique chemistry, inform our decisions. We're all just following our programming, and just as computers can learn and make new choices based on previous results and new data input, so can we, but in any given moment you and I can only make the choices are brains are constructed to make, our brain's chemical and neuron composition determines our will. There may be other factors as well, gut bacteria, for instance, is always showing up in interesting studies as a potential influence on our "will", but that doesn't make it any less programming, just another factor to consider when trying to understanding any given persons "code" and thus predict their future actions. I don't love all the implications of that, its scary to think we may some day have the capacity to literally alter a person's brain, rewrite their code, or even just reduce people down to "good code" and "faulty code" in some fashion, but that I don't like the implications doesn't make the source of those implications any less true. Further, I would suggest it makes it all the more essential that we not put our heads in the ground, wanting to make more of a human's will then what it actually is, and in our ignorance make ourselves even more vulnerable to the manipulations and the machinations of those who would use these truths to harm us and others.
@@andrewwilson9183Well true , we don't fully understand how our minds work on a quantum level . Free will could very well exist , the mind could more than a simple computation But with the current understanding , free will seems impossible
I can't imagine being bored in a world where I know I'm safe to live in and be around other people, no mental illness to tire me out and no long hours at work that take up all my time in a day. There's just too much to do and explore to ever be bored.
I’m new to your channel, thanks to the podcast with Kristy Burke (I follow her). Your arguments are well thought and explained in a way easy to understand. I wish my evangelical family and friends would see your videos with an open mind! Thank you!
Brutal honest insight, Brandon. Excellent video. Your point about natural disasters could have applied to question #6. "If all the bots freely chose to follow the protocols, or Him, would there be any evil and suffering?" Well, evil (depending on how it's defined) no. But suffering, yes, because there are outside influences not controlled by the bots, nor written into their protocols (that the engineers allow), such as natural disaster.
@@ReasonQuest I thought you atheists didn’t believe in objective morality. So by what standard do you assume that suffering is bad, and that God shouldn’t cause suffering?
@@andrewwilson9183 Do you not agree that suffering is bad? Why do you try to avoid suffering? If you are like most people, and you think useless suffering is bad, you certainly don't get that morality from God; "his book" is full of needless suffering-at his own hand. I get my morality the same place we all do: culture, societal norms, the drive to succeed, and learned human empathy. This is why "morality" changes from culture to culture and group to group. I bet the Puritans who settled in the New World-people who believed in the same God and Bible you probably do-would be horrified to see what goes on in churches today. Just the clothing would make them shudder. If "God's objective morality"-from the Bible-is the standard for life on Earth, you can have it; I want nothing to do with it.
I get the sense from the "Perfection would be boring" apologetic idea is that the Christians arguing it start from the assumption that "Improving/overcoming adversity and suffering are the true good/true purpose of life". To put it another way, they see life as like an obstacle course. You start at birth, run your way through life, facing all the hurdles and challenges, and then you die and get Heaven as your reward. They CRAVE that sense of accomplishment, and without that, they would find life "boring". It's just a suspicion, but I think THAT is what at least some of them are REALLY saying when they use that argument. "I need to feel like I'm being rewarded for doing something/for being good". Essentially, they need their egos stroked by God, so to them, thing being good all on its own takes any worth out of their lives. They NEED that head-pat at the end of the day. Okay, right at 22:40 he just pretty much states it plainly.
@@martin2289 I thought you atheists didn’t believe in objective morality. So by what standard do you assume that suffering is bad, and that God shouldn’t cause suffering?
@@andrewwilson9183 Some do, some don't. Personally, I believe that morality is a relative thing, generally speaking. I don't need a divinely inspired "standard" to make moral assessments with respect to what is right and wrong, what causes harm to others or prevents suffering, etc. And most probably neither do you.
@@martin2289 1. Then the problem of evil and suffering should not be used as an argument against monotheism. 2. There is the ontology of goodness and the epistemology. It is the stance of natural law theory that God is the source of values, though such values are revealed in nature.
@@andrewwilson9183 Maybe so. However, it doesn't play out in actuality (obviously) and such an ontology is utterly devoid of any grounding in empirical reality.
I can understand and appreciate how good waters tastes without having to have been extremely thirsty, I can like food without having to have starved, I don't get why so many people have this problem apparently but it makes absolutely no sense.
So happy to be covering this topic fully finally. Thanks for being here for it!
@@MindShift-Brandon thank you for doing these.
Keep up the great content brother!
@@patrickthorpe422 Thank you, will try!
@@TonyLambregts Its always my pleasure!
This video was definitely a Magnum Opus on the subject. I think it was so nice of @imbeggar to do such a comprehensive video of the lousy apologetics, allowing you to shoot them down so succinctly. It was like he was setting up the pins just right for you to bowl a strike.
If boring means no disease, no poverty, no torture, no suffering, no starvation, give me boring.
DAMN RIGHT
Well said!!!
💯
Remember that Chinese curse: "May you live in interesting times."
God created a world with no suffering, no pain, no grief or tragedy. And that world still exists to day.. for jellyfish.
Hence they experience no joy, love, motivation either.
Would you trade? Me neither.
Imagine telling a grieving parent who lost their child in the most horrific way possible "hey, at least it ain't boring!"
right?! It's infuriating.
They might as well say, "You wouldn't appreciate your remaining kids as much if you didn't lose one."
@BenJones-d8p Or imagine saying "your child is in heaven PRAISING GOD for all eternity - and totally forgot about God letting them suffer a painful early death!" 😇
Anem, Gord knew that Perfection would be too boring
@BenJones-d8pYour child's biomass will be reabsorbed into the ecosystem and redistributed into new biological forms. In that sense, she will have an effectively infinite number of afterlives, provided life continues to exist in some form that's linked to the Earth's chain of being.
Pausing at 14:25 to note that I find it interesting that he doesn't acknowledge that anytime someone uses their "free will" to rape, enslave, rob, or murder *that takes away the victims free will to live as they please*. So in a system with truly free will for everyone, no one would be allowed to commit crimes against against other people's person or property. The system would cause the aggressor bots to freeze up if they tried, or allow the innocent bots to teleport out or throw up a force shield to protect themselves if threatened.
Eventually, the evil-intentioned bots would learn, "Well, *that* doesn't work." and try something non-evil to fill their time. Or maybe they'd stubbornly continue to try doing evil, but since they couldn't actually harm anyone, all the good people could go on with their lives unmolested. There you go: Problem of evil solved, while retaining free will for everyone.
Exactly, God needed to make evil profitable so it would be attractive because ?
Vote @astrinymris9953 for God 2024.
@@terrellkirkman2078 🤣🤣🤣 Thank you!
Same problem with Satan, except worse, because many denominations say Satan is irredeemable and can never be saved. But they do think humans can be. So... why does God allow Satan to go around violating human free will, dominating and misleading and tempting and insulting them, potentially resulting in their damnation? It can't be because God values Satan's free will to choose good, because Satan can no longer choose good. So like... make it so he can't interact with human beings at all? You don't have to kill him, just strip him of any power to influence the free will of beings who can still make a meaningful choice.
@@UryvichkGod says one thing, Satan says something to the contrary. Ball is in your court.
The only thing the devil has in this scene is his words, and the only influence they have here is suggesting an alternative that goes against what you have been told before. You can either stick with the former and show your trust in God, which is to allow Him to influence you, or choose the latter, putting your trust in someone else and ceding yourself over to their influence in like fashion.
Much like the Garden of Eden.
The fruit was never the problem. It's trust.
Calling a world without suffering "boring" is cartoonishly evil
Agreed!
So either eternal heaven is boring or it contains suffering.
In the case of the subject video, quite literally so.
@@christasimon9716yup. it’s one of many situations where apologists forget all of the elements of their belief system. they’ll make all these excuses about how the earth needed evil in order to be perfect or we’d just be robots or something, but then go on and on about how great it will be once we get to the place with no evil. it’s like they get amnesia. you realize you’re trying to sell an afterlife with no evil to me, right? in your efforts to explain away the problem of suffering, you’ve cut the legs off your sales pitch
It really is. The apologetic here seems to be that most sapient beings are going to suffer for eternity because God finds that interesting.
The ironic thing about apologetics is that its primary purpose isn't to convince non-believers, but rather to ease the cognitive dissonance of believers who hold their faith primarily due to spiritual experiences or emotional reasons. For these individuals, any self-defeating argument is irrelevant because they believe that, in the end, God will make everything right. William Lane Craig once admitted that he would still hold his beliefs even if all the evidence contradicted them, because his experiences, filtered through a religious and cultural lens, are what he interprets as divine.
yes its for the choir for sure, my only hope is some of the choir sit in my pews for a few minute and get disillusioned with the lies they are being fed.
exactly
@@il.anshin yep. believing in god requires complete absence of reasoning, cognition and logical thinking. Otherwise the whole thing falls apart. That's why believers need to have "blind faith" so they don't question or analyze anything and remain in the bubble where they (falsely) feel safer.
Very well said 👏
@@MindShift-BrandonI mentioned your video in the comments section of his video. Dunno if that was a good idea or not.
The biggest problem with this "boring" argument is no one would KNOW life was boring!!
All they would know is good and perfection is NORMAL!
One of the major problems with evil is how NORMAL it is.
Due to that we've become complacent, apathetic, disillusioned, hopeless, ect to the trauma, illness, pain, and suffering of others and at times ourselves.
We've simply resolved ourselves to "it is what it is" because the world's issues are so severe what can we really do?
@@ayemiksenoj5254
@@ayemiksenoj5254 I thought Atheists didn’t believe in objective morality. So how can you judge the existence or goodness of God by a standard you don’t think exists.?
@@andrewwilson9183, please excuse me but I'm really starting to wonder if people read or if they just feel compelled to say something?
Did you READ what I said or feel compelled to comment?
When and where did I say I was an atheist?
Also, you don't have to believe in organized religion to believe in God.
I personally know several people who aren't part of any religion and believe in God more than any religious person I ever met.
So, after you answer my questions, I'll answer yours.
I asked 3 just to be clear and I won't answer you until you answer all 3.
I have to make sure you're reading what I say first.
@@ayemiksenoj5254 1. Yes I felt compelled, however from what I read it appeared as though you were supporting the video. Brandon did heart you after all. That is sufficient for all your questions.
2. I am aware that people can believe in God outside of any particular religion. I never claimed otherwise. You were also assuming.
05:00 so god is entertained by our suffering. Sounds like a super loving dude.
To be fair i think his point was its boring for us, the bots, but its just as dumb
@MindShift-Brandon ohhh, that actually would make more sense. Still a bad argument, but seems like a better point than "god delights in our suffering"... which actually does sound familiar for some reason 🤔.
I guess I'd wonder how we'd even be capable of getting bored if we're perfect.
@@MrDumdas So much for being the God of love his followers claim he is
@@MindShift-BrandonFor what it's worth, the argument that we only seek struggles and require strife to avoid boredom because we are adapted to a world full of struggle and strife makes the same mistake as most arguments for the existence of God, which is assuming from the start that God exists or God's existence is the most likely explanation for any apparent anomaly (or in this case, that evolution is a real phenomenon or evolution is the most likely explanation for an anomaly in human nature).
Of course, if we assume there is no evolution and genetics are, I dunno, explained by God making children resemble their parents as an aesthetic choice, we must ask _why God made us capable of boredom._
Also I realise that you axiomatically disagree with the idea that without struggle we become bored, but I disagree; That is not only not axiomatically false, there us overwhelming evidence that it is true. I think your mistake in reasoning, based on the video, is unintentionally assuming that as boredom is a type of misery and struggle and strife cause misery, struggle and strife cannot be a requirement to stave off boredom.
@@vitriolicAmaranth Boredom is an evolved characteristic of certain tetrapods that encourages us to explore and discover new resources to exploit or habitats to colonize. Most likely because the organisms that weren't as curious just hung around doing the same thing until all resources dried up and they died.
A chef is making a cake and while preparing the batter half a dozen cockroaches fall in. When guests at the restaurant are served the cake they have a feeling that something is very wrong and inquire to the chef. The chef admits that he allowed the cockroaches to fall in and that it was something that was just bound to happen. When the guests get mad about his carelessness other guests defend the chef and berate the guests that are mad saying that they wouldn’t have been able to do any better and in reality they should not have expected to have the cake any other way.
Well said. Except we’re not even just talking about a chef, we’re talking about the best possible chef. And yet not only would the best possible chef not do such a thing, your run of the mill chef wouldn’t either
@@AdamKlownzinger 👍🏼👍🏼
@@AdamKlownzinger lol and who's running the kitchen for roaches to be around in the first place??
"Which cake would you rather have? A perfect cake that would be BORING or a cake full with surprises - sometimes not good ones?"
@AdamKlownzinger
Naw he was the best chef in the kitchen cuz ik there's definitely better chefs out there 😭
My middle daughter was 10 years old before she found out some parents hit their children. She was horrified when she witnessed that at Walmart for the first time. Kids grow up just fine without physical punishment. Teaching and guiding by example produces much better adjusted adults. I have 3, beautiful, adult children to attest to my words.
As an old Boomer me and my brother were frequently given "the belt " even for minor transgressions .It hurt like hell. The same could be said of the other kids I knew. The parents didn't hesitate to use physical force to correct bad behavior. It was accepted as normal parental behavior. Even our teachers could use physical punishment in paddling a problem student. Me and bro and my friends turned out to be good productive citizens. I never had kids but I would have never hit them to correct behavior.
God is great at making rules, but he's not much of a teacher.
Yeah, I was never hit as a child and somehow I was the best behaved child around! Same with my brother. I genuinely can't think of any way it could've benefited us...much less benefited us in ways that could even come close to compensating for the incredible damage it would cause. (I already suffered terrible anxiety, without the fear of being physically assaulted at any moment.)
Even when I hit puberty and broke my track record of perfect behavior (by self-medicating with the only substances I had access to, which were illegal drugs & alcohol)...physically assaulting me would have been the LAST thing that would've helped! I was already suicidal, in incredible mental anguish, and self-harming as an additional coping mechanism. The only thing that would have helped is the one & only thing that has helped: getting the officially prescribed medication I needed the whole time (because my brain actually needs additional drugs).
It's terrifying to think about how many people would've looked at my situation and thought the only reason my "bad behavior" continued was because my parents weren't willing to hit me. 🤢
I am truly horrified when I imagine how my life would've gone had I been raised by Christian/religious extremists who believed their almighty God actively disapproved *not* beating me, and possibly would punish my parents if they didn't physically assault me...plus, they would definitely think my substance use & mental health issues were purely spiritual problems (if not demonic possession), only solved by prayer & physical punishment (maybe an exorcism too). 🤢🤮
My life was hard enough! 😭
@@sorryifoldcomment8596 I was beaten regularly as a child. It definitely didn't help my anxiety at all. I hope things go well for you. I know it's difficult at times, but it gets better.
@@sorryifoldcomment8596 I had a Christian friend at the time. Even though I stayed overnight a few times, after the cops were called to my house, his family dynamic was always odd to me.
They weren't physically abusive, but they NEVER talked to each other. Not even a greeting when you walked into the house.
I've always thought it was interesting how similar our childhoods were, even though they were very different on the surface. They were the family going to church 3 times per week with a nice house and lawn.
I believe their intentions were good, but we don't necessarily get what we actually need from our parents. I can honestly say I feel pity for my father more than anything else. It's a cycle that's difficult to break. In a strange way, I think I was fortunate because it was very obvious that I needed help.
When I had cancer, it sure wasn't boring, but I'd trade every moment of that excitement for nice, boring health and ease.
As a god with perfect foreknowledge, he’d be able to iterate on the program BILLIONS of times. He’d be able to fine tune all the variables in order to get the outcome he wants. According to this guy, the world is exactly how god wants it to be.
exactly. this is the best of all possible worlds according to Yahweh and this logic, and yet i can remove one single tornado and improve it.
Weirdly, I'm not clear on what the difference would be between God imagining something and God actually creating it. Would God actually create every universe iteration to see how it goes, or is God somehow capable of imagining a universe without creating it? How would we know whether we're in an actually-created universe or one God just imagines?
@@Uryvichk
That’s a good question concerning omniscience. I suppose it may be argued that God has active knowledge of events that take place, and passive or indirect knowledge of counterfactuals.
In other words, by having a knowledge of the presence of certain things, there is also knowledge of the corresponding absences of that presence.
@@kyrroti So?
@@kyrroti I thought you atheists do not believe in objective morality
I think the only argument worse than "perfection is boring" is "evil/suffering is the refiner's fire." I taught elementary school for 38 years. If I had used any of the tactics the biblical God used to teach a lesson or to discipline I would be rightly incarcerated for life in solitary confinement.
100%!
@@MrFiddler1959 I thought Atheists didn’t believe in objective morality. So how can you judge the goodness or existence of God by a standard you don’t believe exists?
@@andrewwilson9183so you’re assuming that Atheists can’t have any moral compass because they don’t subscribe to any specific religion? Or worse give any examination of said religion simply because they don’t believe in it? Sad.
@
No, I did not say any of that reread the comment
@@unbrokenativee
I never once used the word religion.
What I said was, you cannot simultaneously say that “the concept of God is evil” and “good and evil do not objectively exist”.
"Sure, God *could* make a universe without babies that get flesh eating disease & experience agony for their short life... but seeing babies suffer is just so much fun!!" - Christians, apparently
"Sure, heaven is perfect & there is no suffering... but there are no babies in agony?? This place is BORING!" -Christians, apparently
@@JeffryBozes Yeah, I immediately started thinking about all the species I would simply not create. It would be so easy for me...definitely a lot easier than actually creating them. I would also have no trouble creating an ecosystem that didn't require them, if I had God's absolute power.
Just...why??
Lies. When Ahura Mazda created the world, they made it perfect. All of our problems are man-made, or, more accurately, HIERARCHY made!
the god of the bible is described as being able to create and destroy and resurrect at will, and exists in an eternal plane. why would this matter to him?
also, your logic in your bottom paragraph is nonsense.
jesus said his kingdom is not of this world. the people who reject him are the ones who choose this world and all of its evils. the ones who accept him desire to be with him in the plane he exists in.
as to why he allows it at all: to show that man is so evil and foolish that he would choose all of it rather than anything better that involves him.
unless you believe there is another way of escape of this world other than faith in Jesus of Nazareth, every belief in your worldview will, by default, serve to make you choose this world and choose all the evil in it.
ie, you are no different than what you project about the creator, except you don't have the power to make it happen. you still want it, though
Remember that unless they were grown in a lab, every one of those babies is guilty of violating a womans bodily autonomy without her consent.
A crime that is equivalent to grape, and rightly warrants capital punishment without any trial or due process.
Skin disease is getting off easy.
@@_ben_miller Why do you assume it is a choice to not be raised in an environment that leads me to believe that a particular mythology/religion story is true?
God can't be around evil yet he created it. Knowing all along what he was doing.
One of s thousand issues!
And yet, apparently, no one can escape his presence, according to David.
@@CatDaddyGuitarIf you want a good 😂 laugh watch "Little Darryl The First 48"
Well said!!!!!!
Go read 2 Samuel 24:1 and 1st Chronicles 21:1. Use a KJV. Notice who prompts David. Not the same? Or is it the same?
The way that I saw the I am Beggar video and thought "Brandon should react to this, I hope he does." I guess prayer does work 🙏😅
Lol!
larf larf
I hope others react to it too. Like Rhino or GMS for instance. Or maybe SirSic?😅
@@beanpie2912 I thought Atheists didn’t believe in objective morality. So how can you judge the goodness or existence of God by a standard you don’t believe exists?
@@johngavin1175 I thought Atheists didn’t believe in objective morality. So how can you judge the goodness or existence of God by a standard you don’t believe exists?
Hot take: If unspeakable evil and horror are the logical and inevitable result of free will, then free will is evil, and God is evil for creating it.
@Ponera-Sama The only thing free will can do is damn us, if you believe you can't save yourself without jesus.
Simple, yet hard hitting point!
Which would be true if Enoch died
Yep, that's the fundamental fatal flaw of the Free Will Defense: There is no good, principled, ethical reason why God should prefer the expression of free will to the point of allowing every other bad thing. Nothing about it is inherently good, at least not enough to be more valuable than everything else; and if it's only instrumentally good, then to whatever extent it results in the opposite of good, it shouldn't be valued by God.
@@Uryvichk another fundamental flaw is all of the evil that has zero relationship to free will.
Natural disasters. Childhood cancer. There is immeasurable pain and suffering in this world. It serves no purpose and cannot be defending by free will.
According to biblical logic God caused it with intention, rendering the bible logically impossible.
Funny how a perfect world without free will is existentially boring when an apologist is justifying the existence of suffering, but NOT existentially boring when the apologist is justifying the concept of Heaven
Don't worry, there will be cancer in Heaven, too. Gotta keep things interesting!
Alright so yes the guy he’s reacting to is bad at philosophy.
I however have a better explanation of how to reconcile a word of suffering with the existence of God, if you would be interested.
@@andrewwilson9183 Well first, we should establish what you mean by "God", as everyone has their own definition of what God/a god is. So when you say "God", specifically what are you referring to? And also, does your definition of God include omnipotence, omniscience and omnibenevolence?
@@smoldragon339
Yes, that is what I mean when speaking of God
@@andrewwilson9183 I asked two separate questions, and you've only answered the second one. I still don't know what your actual definition of God is, merely that that definition includes omnipotence, omniscience and omnibenevolence.
34:07 Damn man, this brought tears to my eyes. You worded that perfectly. As an former Christian father in a Christian family: thanks for doing what you do.
appreciate that! thanks for being here.
To point out what you said, as an ex hardcore atheist, now Christian:
You not following Christ doesnt make you a bad father. If one of your children becomes Christian, and you're against that, thats another case.
The priest that does evil but follows Christ, ending in heaven, is from what i understand, a bit of a strawman argument, because yes, path to heaven is through Christ. However, if that love for Him is genuine, you're not gonna do evil. And if you do, you repent and you always improve.
So the priest that does evil, cannot have a relation with Christ, as He is described in the bible (it can be an imagined Christ to fit his needs, so therefore a false Christ)
In your case, from what i understand, God is just. If you were given information about Christ and you reject Him for your own satisfaction/superiority/pride etc, then thats bad news.
However, (i assume you did this) you looked at your life, at knowledge presented, and concluded Christianity is fake, however you will apply Christ teachings to your children (love, humility, etc) ... I cant say whats gonna happen, but i cant say you will go to hell, but because He is just, you will not get tricked into hell if you genuinely dont deserve it.
Sorry for the bad experiences with Christians, as an ex hardcore atheist, i can always relate to atheists ! Take care 😊
As a software engineer, this guy's understanding of AI hurts like hell. It belongs on the SyFy channel not in a real discussion about anything.
Whenever apologists try to use computer-related metaphors, they fail miserably. Without exception.
@@dasbus9834 Whenever they try to argue cosmology, they fail. Biology. Geology. Car design. In fact, they're all failures and almost always in ways you don't need to be an expert in order to spot the lies.
I don’t understand AI that well, and even I listened to that thinking, “This sounds all kinds of wrong.”
I cringed so hard at that part
I'm no software engineer but I know ChatGPT doesn't run on Asimov's 3 laws. 😂😂😂
Many aspects of the Christian world view can be summed up with this:
“From what position of privilege”
Nailed it Brandon.
There’s people in Africa who die for there faith I beg to differ.
@@swagpenguin2151 there are people in africa who were made christian by people who genocided them and enslaved them, and those were justified by the bible
@@mossystone584
I don’t think you understand African history
@@mossystone584
Ethiopia is a historically Christian society, and most of the Africas conversion to Christianity has come in the past few decades.
@@andrewwilson9183 the Ivory coast
As a dude with Autism, Hydrocephalus, Has lost both my brothers and my stepsister for reasons that we're totally out of my control, Has more body issues than I'd like to admit. I could do a better job than this God, blindfolded, hands behind my back, and with a full blown Concussion. This God can shove it
I am also somebody that has autism, but I also have a rare disease on top of that called Tuberous Sclerosis that causes it. The main things I deal with are noncancerous tumors on my brain and cysts that grow on both of my kidneys. I have no doubt in my mind that I would’ve done a much better job than whatever supposedly created us. One thing I would do to start with as an example is: making it extremely punishable or hard for folks to get wealthy off of the backs of those who are suffering with an illness/disability no matter if it’s mental or physical.
@@joshuamoody7729 *Slow clap* Beautiful! Perfection 🤌🏻
According to the OC God made you that way and put you through all of that trauma because otherwise, your life would be boring! (Note he doesn't say who it's boring *for* )
@@terrellkirkman2078 Than that God is an absolute fucking dick for even allowing me to be born in the first place, assuming it knows I would feel this way, and get a one way ticket to the burning place because he set my ass up. Again, this God can take it's plan, flip it sideways and shove it up his "All Powerful, All Knowing" ass, I would put all Good, but we all know that's fucking false
Autistic, narcoleptic, idiopathic chronic inflammation, and I need a heart transplant.
At least that imbegar guy isn't bored though, right?
If a real-life clinical trial was failing so spectacularly, the Ethics Committee would stop the trial.
@@narellepayne1455
You’re assuming what moral obligations God is bound to.
All we know is that God is bound to consistency
Huh, my bad. Here I am thinking that woodworking and sewing and skiing and reading and sculpting are things I can do to stave off boredom. If only I had known the only way to not be bored is to be bad I could have saved myself a lot of missed time and missed opportunity.
Yes how naive of you. Dont you know war and pain is all that is fun?
@@funkypunkypine I thought Atheists didn’t believe in objective morality. So how can you judge the goodness or existence of God by a standard you don’t believe exists?
This was my issue growing up as a Methodist preachers kid with a sick mom and being poor. I was always upset how my dad served and the Bible says he takes care of his own we always seemed to be struggling and my mom never was healed.
Basically, I prayed and served myself even going to Bible school and always was met with silence. So if there is some plan I'm not aware of it.
Not to mention the plethora of fictional universes that are awesome. Why didnt god make star trek, pokemon world, insert better worlds we created.
TBH the idea that God is a barely adequate software engineer who likes reality shows like Locked Up Abroad and 90 Day Fiancé over Star Trek and Pokémon makes more sense than most Christian apologetics.
The scapegoat for them in this situation is "it's god's plan that you suffer and things will eventually get ebtter" over and over until something finaly does go right, or it never does and that's also "God's plan". Like with what happen with the Trump rally atendee that died protecting his family from getting shot. Very convienant for them.
Why didn't he make a world without smallpox? _We_ managed it, and the universe didn't fall apart.
@@kevincrady2831 but imagine how exciting it is for him to watch and see if the ani-vax people can bring it back? Creating a world without small pox (or any other disease) is like creating a reality competition without an elimination ceremony .
On the 2023 earthquake in Turkey that killed over 45,000 people there was a story that totally demolished me.
There was this man who was working when the quake hitted. When he returned home, his entire neighborhood was gone. It was a set of six story buildings. He lived with his elderly mother, his wife, his two boys and one girl. While looking through the rubble the found the girl's arm . She was alive under tons of debris. There was no way to extract her. The man sat next to her on a chair, holding her hand as she slowly died asking him to save her. She died. The girl was already decomposing, the man was still there holding her hand. His eyes lost. I cannot imagine what was in his mind. He lost his entire family. His entire neighborhood. And for what? Is someone gonna have the balls of quoting Job on me?
I don't give a shit about the divine plan. If the plan is more important than the suffering of the innocent,then there is no benevolent god. Is a cruel sadistic overlord.
I don't know what happened to that man. But the image if him holding his daughter's hand from under the rubble will forever haunt me.
God wanted the entertainment value.
That tragic story encapsulates the problem of natural evil, which no Christian has ever been able to 'theodicy' their way out of.
@BenJones-d8pso... You're agreeing on the biblical God not being omnipotent?
it's a long read but please read this You understand a lot more...............
Before I begin, I want to acknowledge something upfront: words often feel hollow in the face of overwhelming tragedy like this. What that man went through is beyond heartbreaking. No human being should endure such pain, and any answer we try to offer has to begin from a place of humility and respect for the depth of his suffering. I don’t claim to have a perfect answer. But I’ll try to offer a perspective that grapples with both the agony of this situation and the profound questions it raises.
The objection here is clear, and it cuts deep: How can anyone reconcile this kind of unspeakable suffering-of a father watching his child die slowly, unable to save her-with the belief in a benevolent, all-powerful God? Isn’t such suffering proof that God either doesn’t exist or, worse, that He is indifferent or cruel?
So, the first thing we have to admit is that this suffering feels like a cosmic betrayal. Not just of the father, but of all of us. And when we're betrayed, we look for someone to blame, and in this case, God becomes that target. And rightly so, because if God exists and allowed this, doesn’t He bear the ultimate responsibility?
Now, let’s take this head-on. The idea that God has a ‘divine plan’ can feel deeply unsatisfying in situations like this. It feels almost callous to suggest that this father’s loss was part of some grand narrative. So, if there is a God, how do we make sense of His silence in such moments? There are a few things to consider, none of which erase the suffering, but they do force us to think deeper about the nature of the divine.
First, we have to reject a simplistic view of God’s plan, one where God micromanages every event and deliberately designs every tragedy. If God were a puppet master pulling every string, then yes, we would be right to call Him cruel. But what if, instead, God has created a world with genuine freedom-freedom in human choices, freedom in nature-and that freedom comes with risk, randomness, and the possibility of immense suffering? What if God is not the architect of every event, but the force that seeks to heal and redeem even the worst moments
You mentioned Job, and I get it-Job’s story often feels like the ultimate cop-out when it comes to suffering. But maybe there’s something deeper there than just ‘God works in mysterious ways.’ In the story of Job, God doesn’t give easy answers to suffering; instead, He challenges Job by showing him the vastness and complexity of the universe, a universe that operates on principles far beyond human comprehension. But here’s the kicker: God never dismisses Job’s pain. He never minimizes it. Instead, Job is invited to wrestle with his grief, his anger, and his sense of injustice-because these feelings are real and valid
But here’s where the real existential challenge comes in: If God doesn’t exist, does that make the situation any better? Does it erase the suffering or make it more bearable? If there is no God, no transcendent reality, then suffering like this becomes pure absurdity. It has no meaning, no purpose, no hope. The father’s pain, his daughter’s death, all of it becomes just a cruel twist of fate in a meaningless universe. But if there is a God, even one who we don’t fully understand, then there is at least the possibility of redemption. Maybe, and I emphasize maybe, this suffering can be transformed-not erased, not justified, but transformed-into something that we can’t yet see
It’s not a comforting answer, but it’s a profoundly different view of reality. Either the universe is utterly indifferent, or there is a God who grieves with us, who suffers with us, and who ultimately promises to make things right, even if we can’t see it in the moment. And perhaps, this is the hardest thing to accept: that there is meaning and hope, even in the face of unimaginable suffering, but we may never fully grasp it in this life
I know that’s not a tidy answer. There’s no ‘silver lining’ to a tragedy like this. But maybe, just maybe, the existence of a God who allows freedom, who weeps with us, and who ultimately offers redemption is not as absurd as it first seems. Maybe, when all else falls apart, we’re left with two choices: despair in a meaningless universe or cling to the hope that somehow, in ways we can’t understand, suffering will be redeemed. I’ll leave you with that to think about
This is heartbreaking.
Some assholes out there get hard at the thought of exploiting these types of tragedies, for thé sake of entertainment. I guess the world not being boring is the divine plan.
Smh. Fkin ridiculous.
This was one of the biggest problems I have when I was doubting. There was no good answer to all the suffering and evil if God was as all-powerful, all-loving, all-forgive, all-knowing, etc. Thank you for talking about all the cop-outs that results in these questions. Huge like!!! I'm going to save this for future use because I know I'll need it in my back pocket.
Glad you found it so useful. Thanks for watching!
Just make god as foolish as causality and give god a companion Satan as unreliable as chaos and there you go.
@@JumpyDragon56
The Atheist argument from suffering is fallacious
@@JumpyDragon56 I thought you atheists do not believe in objective morality
Defending god is like defending an abusive husband/ boyfriend/girlfriend/
parent, defending god is basically the same as defending and making excuses for an abuser
It's unhealthy and toxic
If things go well, then it's all because of god.. If things go bad, it'S because our fault to be tempted by evil...
Exactly like an abusive partner / abusive parent!
@@pratiwi16 you spoken like a victom who makes excuses for their abuser
@@pratiwi16"he abuses me because he loves me"
@@daysoftheboo nope.. I agree with your statement!
@@pratiwi16 oh, I got confused
Because my parents are extremely religious and then and they're crazy religious friends make the most extreme insane excuses for god
Very very offensive to survivors of abuse of any kind , so I wasn't sure if you were also making excuses for god AKA the man or men who invented god
So this guy watched the Matrix and heard Agent Smith’s story about the first Matrix was paradise and perfect. But people couldn’t handle it and it crashed and the lost many crops. Definitely reminded me of that scene.
This guy sounds like all his knowledge about the topic comes from science fiction. Because holy crap, that's not how any of this works.
Excellent analogy. That’s funny. I thought he was thinking about I am Robot. But your pick makes better sense.
Ever notice how every single time an apologist makes an analogy for God, they conveniently forget about the "omnipotent" and "omniscient" part?
Yup lol!
Absolutely! Frank turek got nailed by some dude who’s name I forget rn in a debate when he brought up how sin coming into the world is Gods fault for placing the tree in the garden, while knowing they were going to eat from it before placed it. Franks rebuttal was to suggest that God “couldn’t do better” I.e. this was the best world he could create. Immediately diminished the characteristic of omnipotence lol
@@JDrocks4ever Honestly, I don't know why they ever thought it was a good idea to claim their god was literally omnipotent and omniscient. It would save them a hell of a lot of trouble to just admit that's it's an incompetent loser who can't figure out how to build a halfway decent lifeform without filing it full of hundreds of obvious design flaws.
Their whole moral philosophy is based on "might makes right" anyway, so what does it matter if their god is a moron? They would still be obligated to obey him out of terror of his unquenchable bloodlust, so why the massive PR campaign?
Oh... right... it's because he's not real. 🤭
@@JDrocks4ever God can't, again do away with necessity so it is consistent that there are things God can't do while being omnipotent and theist since the middle ages never denied such a thing. Or else you get things such as God being able too create a square circle or doing things against his nature(he can't) and this was affirmed since the middle ages.
There are other things you could respond to Frank Turek on this matter as a rebuttal, but i am just here to clarify that this response does not necessarily diminishes omnipotence. I will have to add that i'm doubtful about the specific christian God existant and it seems i have to say such a thing before people start saying things about my intentions.
@toonyandfriends1915 listing a bunch of things god can't do certainly does diminish his omnipotence. I am also omnipotent, if you don't count all of the things I can't do.
You know, at least the Jews admit that God's the author of both good and evil and the only reason to submit is because you're terrified of the guy.
And so did almost every polytheist adherent of every mythology ever. They never had to pretend their gods are of any embodiment of moral virtue, and are instead someone powerful you beseech for favors, and respect for their authority.
I accidentally read that as “terrified of the gay” and it still worked 😂😂
Also they had a contract with him. Sometimes you sign a contract with a real jerk, but a deal's a deal, y'know?
@@Uryvichkwhy, of course the jews would make a deal with even their own god. Classic jews, I bet they even sneaked in a few fine print clauses.
@@Uryvichk It's funny how God's covenant with Abraham contains almost no real duties and obligations for God to fulfill, but requires Abraham's descendents to follow a plethora of rather arbitrary rules and a hard non-compete clause. Old Abe should have hired a lawyer before signing.
Suddenly that Baal guy looks like a really swell deal.
A perfect God would require no apologetics
this is such an underrated comment
That argument doesnt make sense because you cant describe a perfect God because you dont have all the knowledge and capability. Anything resembling "perfection" coming from you would be heavily tainted (and everyone, im not attacking you haha)
Also, this perfect God gave us freedom of will ... So if someone wants to be an apologetic, they can.
I just didnt understand your argument, im sorry
@@newme1589 Where does it say that god gave us free will/freedom of will in the bible? I'm not convinced that this god gave us anything because I'm not even convinced that this god even exists.
@@newme1589 why do you believe in free will? Just an assumption? You should be careful with those.
A perfect god would communicate more clearly and not need the interpreters to speak for him and get it all mixed up.
Also, why would I only show myself in one form in one small part of the world at a time when documentation is lowest
The problem with the “boring” issue he stated is that boredom is an emotion that we feel and perceive as the flawed and imperfect human beings that we are. If God made us perfect and content, we would not even fathom the concept or feeling of boredom because we would not want for anything outside of what was set before us and programmed into us. Sure it’s boring to “us” as we currently exist, but that’s because we crave drama, excitement, highs and lows in order to have a sense of fulfillment and value. Perfectly designed beings wouldn’t need that to even have a sense of something being boring.
One issue with the whole free will argument is desires we're born with. I was born with a high amount of empathy. I don't WANT to harm anyone. I feel bad when I make others feel bad. So, do I lack free will? Do people who are just genuinely really nice and good people lack free will? Do priests who prey on children have more free will than me when their actions are also a result of a desire they were born with?
Free will goes out the window when we're not all on the same playing field.
Yes, but those who prey children are not born with that desire, if I get it right.🤷
@@blueStarKitt7924 Some probably are since it's sooooo widespread. Others it might be a consequence of their upbringing which they had no control over.
@@suicune2001 🤔
@@suicune2001
Will can override desires or augment them
@@andrewwilson9183 Eh, to a point. Will is a finite resource. We don't have infinite amounts of it.
Ok but right from the beginning: no, if I was a PERFECT being I wouldnt even have the desire or want to create anything (nevermind not be able to create something without suffering). Because me just being me is perfect enough as is. No need for anyone or anything else👌
Exactly! I get to this for sure
@@MindShift-Brandon guess I spoke to soon^^
Makes sense but ultimately they means you wouldn’t be here
@@airbus7373 yeah, and it wouldnt hurt me one bit, would it?
@@justadude7752 indeed, if that's how you feel, then there are options available. Options that I and everyone else would never want you to take. But also options that can heal you and make you come out the other side, like I did.
I just can't fathom a world in which we don't exist. Bodies trapped, in nothing but blackness, without the ability to do anything.
One of my best and dearest Christian friends asked me (after I admitted I'm agnostic), "Are you just letting your emotions get the best of you since you god has not intervened in so much suffering?" My response was that it would be emotionally easier to believe in a loving god that cares about not just me, but the rest of the world." She didn't have a response.
Thank you Brandon for this excellent video. I am always blown away with your ability to show, with scripture, the audacity of this god.
its so frustrating to see believers miss the point so hard and at the same time be so hypocritical. Thank you for this!
@@CJoyArt I thought Atheists didn’t believe in objective morality. So how can you judge the goodness or existence of God by a standard you don’t believe exists?
@@andrewwilson9183 hey how about you do your own research agnostic means a person who believes that nothing is known or can be known of the existence or nature of God or of anything beyond material phenomena; a person who claims neither faith nor disbelief in God. so not an athiest
@@zethian1 the principle applies all the same
Comparing humanity to a computer program is so idiotic because the engineers can pull the plug or reset the program at literally any time, like God who is outside of Time and Space
God can't pull the plug or do a reset if he chooses?
They could also pull out one person, one instance of the code, run debug on it and do whatever changes, pop it back into a smaller simulation to see if the patch worked after running all their pre-checks, before putting it into general use.
So damned many options for the engineers, including rewinding time locally (since they apparently have COMPLETE logs of everything already) or just .. yeah. God would have literally infinite better options than Original Sin, Heaven and Hell and natural disasters and all the BS.
@@archapmangcmgthanks for this comment that warms my nerdy heart
@@charlesclaridy8646it can't do anything as far as i'm concerned. especially when outside space and time.
Just be the victim and they see you as weak minded and stupid not a savior to lead them! DUH!
Love your work.
Summary of apologist arguments: “don’t think too hard about it”
Thank you!
@@Nick-Nasti
It’s the other way around, but most their arguments are dumb to be fair.
@@Nick-Nasti I thought Atheists didn’t believe in objective morality. So how can you judge the goodness or existence of God by a standard you don’t believe exists?
@@andrewwilson9183 because we judge your imaginary god by morals, not “objective” morals. Morals exist whether they are objective or subjective.
@@Nick-Nasti
That doesn’t make any sense.
Morals based on what standard?
Hell isn’t for wrongdoers. It’s for non believers, regardless of how good or bad they were. The Bible makes that explicitly clear.
Bingo!
Do you not realize how screwed up that sounds though oh never mind I forgot you Christian’s don’t have an ounce of empathy.
Exactly like what a childhood teacher of mine said... No matter how good you are as a person, if you don't believe in god, you will end up in hell.. But if you are a bad person and do lots of bad things, but in the end, you surrender yourself to god and ask for forgiveness, every bad things will be forgiven and you're gonna go to heaven
My brain as a child could not Accept it, so does my brain as an adult now
Let's see... God created hell because not believing in him is infinitely horrible, yet he isn't going to show you he exists well enough to make you believe......or......Priests invented the idea of hell in order to scare people into accepting the religion that supports them as priests. Which of these two is more likely?
@@TaylorReedHudson Do you not realize how messed up that whole idea is so everyone that never believed in their particular god gets torched forever not very loving or just.
I'm never "bored" watching "mindshift"😊.
Is there a sufficient amount of evil? 😂😂
lol thanks!
Definitely.
I agree as well. This was a good one and a doozy,for sure.
@@MarkMiller-gt5tu I thought Atheists didn’t believe in objective morality. So how can you judge the goodness or existence of God by a standard you don’t believe exists?
Every single apologetic that tries nullify the reason for evil to exist is nothing but horseshit
Agreed
Be nice. Horseshit is very useful and is good in the garden. It holds a lot of moisture. Use Carnivore shit as an insult because it stinks to high heaven just like apologetics. Pun intended.
Many of them come from Alvin Plantinga. Hint: There's a connection between this point and your point.
That part.
Well, I don't know why you can say Horseshit and I can't. But here we are.
I think the analogy of a computer simulation really obscures the fact that we're talking about thinking feeling beings here. I think most people, if faced with the choice of creating one of those two simulations, if they were reminded that these are real thinking feeling beings they were about to create, would create the perfect first world to avoid having all the blood on their hands from the other one.
I never understand when people say God allows bad things to happen to bring him glory and that it's worth it?? NO It's not!
God is glorious in his absurdity.
Thank God's Angel Lucifer for his assistance 😂
😔😔😔
Yes! why does he need to be glorified?? He is 100% perfect. He doesnt need anything. Is he narcissist?
@Existidor.Serial137 Not only is he A narcissist, he is THE narcissist!
Before going further in the video, one problem I found with ImBeggar's argument is the statement he does later on that a "permanent punishment" (alluding to eternal hell), this while small, is a devastating flaw because as you all know, no crime deserves infinite punishment. This is a problem that makes the PoS infinitely worse
Do you mean Problem of Suffering or Piece of Shit?
I mean, the sentence works fine for both meanings!
@@archapmangcmg uhh, problem of suffering
@@kettei7743 Okay cos a being that would hurt someone (much less a lot of people) infinitely is also a PoS.
@BenJones-d8p Meanwhile, you're sentenced to go there for lying to Nazis to protect Jews.
And next to you, a career politician who told nothing but self-serving lies. God's "justice"!
Second problem, what is punishment for eternity supposed to achieve? It certainly does not rehabilitate.
_"At least they could say, 'we did it on our own'"_
I immediately thought of the Tower of Babel.
right?! its such a weird claim of goodness
@@MindShift-Brandon Honestly, it's kind of refreshing to hear a Christian say that. I personally value personal accomplishment, but the Bible story condemns it.
I think he'd have a ghost of a point, if he weren't trying to argue on behalf of Christianity.
@@incredulouspasta3304 I thought Atheists didn’t believe in objective morality. So how can you judge the goodness or existence of God by a standard you don’t believe exists?
@@andrewwilson9183 1. Some atheists believe in objective morality, and some don't.
2. Subjective morality doesn't imply there is no standard. A subjective standard is still a standard.
@@incredulouspasta3304
Not a standard that can levied at God. What is the foundation of objective morality if not God
I do love how, in order to defend their "tri-omni" God, they have to make his utterly incompetent, moronic, and an absolute rat-bastard.
Of course, the tri-omni thing is so obviously a retcon to the mythology, that it alone creates all sorts of issues in elevating a former war-god into the entirety of his pantheon.
@@firebornliger
Is the God of Deism tri Omni?
@@firebornliger I thought Atheists didn’t believe in objective morality. So how can you judge the goodness or existence of God by a standard you don’t believe exists?
@@andrewwilson9183
What you have just claimed is subjective morality.
Moral standards that change a great deal over the course of the thousands of years the book was written, and thus change drastically within the book.
@@andrewwilson9183 "what standard,"
The standard that causing direct harm for your own gain is some degree of wrong.
Reductive, perhaps, but the baseline must be somewhere.
This scales from killing an animal (or plant) for food being not wrong at all, as long as you attempt to not waste it.
To many forms of harm being inflicted upon another human for nothing more than your own emotional fulfillment being drastically evil.
This is the start of where your God becomes, not only amoral, but actively evil.
In your mythology, all things, even the spirits of evil that he created, are within his control. He allows them to run rampant in the world to, in the words of the scripture, increase his glory. He lets evil exist simply for his own pride.
@@firebornliger
You did make a moral statement
And if God knows the future. Then he wouldn't kneed to spend All of his time keeping track of everybody's sins.
@James-wv3hx BINGO!
@@James-wv3hx I thought Atheists didn’t believe in objective morality. So how can you judge the goodness or existence of God by a standard you don’t believe exists?
@@andrewwilson9183 When I was 4 years old and heard about a talking snake I knew it was a scam. And when I was 8 years old my friend and I were walking behind a Church and the Pastor came out with a stick and told us to knock off the beautiful yellow flowers on acres of land because they were evil weeds. We just walked away. That creep had NO business telling us what to do! He was trying to groom us. Ammon Hillman says that Jesus was a pedo child sex trafficker. He explains it in Graffic details on the Danny Jones Podcast. He refuses any money offered to him. And he says that Preachers are hucksters and cowards because none will debate him.
@@andrewwilson9183 When I was 4 years old I thought Jesus was gay because he loved to wash men's feet and rub oil on each other's bodies like at P Diddy freakoffs. And that it's a sin to have sexual thoughts about women. Do Christian men have to think of Jesus to get an erection? Ammon Hillman says that Jesus was a pedo child sex trafficker in his interview on the Danny Jones Podcast.
14:29 "religion and philosophy, [but if you choose the wrong religion you burn for eternity]"
Judgement day won't be a theology exam.
@@AssassinoJake
Most Christians don’t believe that all non Christians are necessarily damned.
Salvation is in a persons inner positive disposition towards God
this video can be summarized in: congratulations now heaven is pointless
indeed!
Reminds me of Godless Engineer's opinion of heaven. Definitely dont wanna go.
@@johngavin1175
Heaven is misunderstood
@@andrewwilson9183 Do not keep trying to convince non believers you and I believe in a beautiful reality and that is what God wants He wants us to believe with our faith he is real. Bless you 🙏
I just can't understand the lack of imagination that goes into how they would create a world different than the god of the Bible. "Nope, ship shape!"
They are benefitting from the way the world is, so any change is seen as an attack on their benefits.
Omni-impotence and omni-incompetence are the hidden attributes of their omni-god.
I sometimes use the expression god-goggles, but really it's god-blinkers or a god-blindfold.
Once you lock your thinking into "god-dunnit", and that god is a tri-omni god, you have to ignore a lot of things to retain that way of thinking. It curtails curiosity and imagination.
As a quote from the fictional character in Fullmetal Alchemist: Brotherhood, Fuhrer King Bradley once said: “God is nothing but a construct created by man to inspire fear and promote order”!
Sounds great, we need order
@@jordanrobinson9064 I thought Atheists didn’t believe in objective morality. So how can you judge the goodness or existence of God by a standard you don’t believe exists?
@@andrewwilson9183 Objective Morality is a human concept that only exists within humanity on Earth, not the entire cosmos itself, that is why atheist denies its existence.
You know that feeling when someone says something and you go, “that’s exactly what I was thinking, I just didn’t know how to put it into words and articulate it”…that’s how I feel whenever I watch these videos. Thank you, Brandon🙌🏼
So glad to help vocalize!
@@AV-of6yj I thought Atheists didn’t believe in objective morality. So how can you judge the goodness or existence of God by a standard you don’t believe exists?
You deserve an award!!! The way you use logic is incomparable to anyone else. You're definitely the #1 BEST atheist channel on UA-cam!!! ❤
Indeed.
far too kind, but thank you.
Yes he is!
Agreed. There are other atheist UA-camrs that I think might be a little more entertaining, but here he always gets straight to the point and hits the nail on the head so hard in ways that are just undeniable.
@@TaylorReedHudson Definitely true.
Brandon!! This really is your magnum opus. So eloquently and intelligently articulated. It’s very interesting that suffering is what seems to make so many people turn toward/need religion. It was the opposite for me; facing the realities of immense suffering is what made me turn away from religion altogether. The magnitude of suffering that exists in this world should be enough to break any theological spell a person may be under. The fact that people see this suffering and double down defending god, even becoming pompous and narcissistic about it is absolutely mind blowing. Maddening and sinister!
Thank you for your stellar work. Your channel has become my favorite!
Thank you for all that very lovely feedback!
Thats the point, when you overfocus on your own suffering and feelings (narcissism) you belive on a personal being that somehow gives meaning to your life. when you focus on the whole picture, other people and creatures then you stop believing in personal gods.
@@MindShift-BrandonI can't help but reinforce the point. This may be the best video that any Atheist could possibly make, I really don't see anyone doing a better job than you.
@@Anyox17
Disagree, as an Atheist turned Deist I can honestly say that the argument from suffering against God, is the WORST argument for Atheism
@@infinitedeath1384 I thought Atheists didn’t believe in objective morality. So how can you judge the goodness or existence of God by a standard you don’t believe exists?
This is a perfect example of why I believe that it is All made up to scam people out of their money 🤑.
@@James-wv3hx Exactly. All the way back to Ananias and Sephira!!
Money plays a role, but politics/power is the raison d’être.
Kinda convenient how god always favors the victor, and the victor is always the good guy.
Scamvangelism in a nutshell 😂
I think religion was the first attempt at answering questions.
It was the first attempt at philosophy.
But as the age of religion increased, so did the number of opportunists and conformists.
Imagine programming these simulations in a way where there's freedom, but only between good choices. There a bot could choose between excercise or visiting their grandma, we just erase the possibility of thinking about, oh idontknow, child abuse. No rewriting of anything, no monitoring bad thoughs, just not even having the capacity to from the get go. We could have greatness in exploring the universe, in developing art, in teaching one another stuff, all without things like cancer. Maybe the programmes wouldn't find such a world as interesting, but why is their opinion the only one that matters here and not the ones from their test subjects?
Good cannot exist without evil. If you could put a computer chip in your child's brain to force them to only ever do or be good, would you? Do you not see the ethical problems that arise when robbing someone of their agency? Would your kid be better off living like some sort of ant drone, only doing what you tell them to do, or would it be better if they had the ability to be evil but chose to be good instead?
@@DIYWeekend no. I'm not talking about forcing people to follow one straight path, but to choose between a giant collection of good paths. That doesn't take agency away, and makes for a better world where cancer and child abuse are not concepts one could even consider
@@ellyam991 good compared to what?
@@DIYWeekend against what god/the programmers knew could happen. They are said to be all knowing after all. If this seems strange, consider they designed a heavenly place where the good bots go where no evil happens, so they could've just done that from the start
@@DIYWeekend "Good cannot exist without evil. If you could put a computer chip in your child's brain to force them to only ever do or be good, would you?"
No, because I don't believe in violating someone else's consent, but you've poisoned the well by phrasing it this way. Let's remove the well-poisoning and ask the real question: Would YOU put a computer chip in YOUR OWN brain to force yourself to only ever do good?
The answer is yes, yes I would. Obviously I would. Why wouldn't I? The chip makes it so that I can only ever do or be good. That's good, by definition. I want that. I SHOULD want that, because I should desire to do more good things and fewer bad things, and this chip lets me do only good things and no bad things. So obviously I should get the chip installed in my brain. Would you not? Why do you want the ability to do evil? What possible reason could you have for leaving open the possibility of not doing good? Do you WANT to do evil?
You see, when the question is put this way, suddenly it no longer is quite the gotcha you might think it is. It is in fact perfectly rational to render yourself unable to do wrong and only able to do good. Everyone of sound mind should get such a chip installed, provided it is safe and can't malfunction and actually does what it claims to do.
God is perfect, I guess that makes Him boring. "But He's God so He can't be boring!" Special pleading!
Indeed!
Also, he can't suffer adversity (well, except for that one time when he incarnated as a human and had a really bad weekend for your sins), so he can't experience strength, victory, or heroism. Glory hog that he is, that must make him utterly miserable. Maybe that's why he's such a giant torture-monster.
@@kevincrady2831 God's a diva. He also gets really jealous if you even look in another deity's direction.
If suffering is the result of free will, I wonder if there's more free will in Sudan then in Sweden.
really interesting point that would be fun to play with.
Admittedly I have a friend from the Dominican Republic, going to college in the US, who says there’s more free will there, although it’s less safe. People do get used to their environments
Ironically, people in dire, suffering situations have less free-will, not more.
@@hamobu
Willful evil is a consequence of free will. Some evil is inculpable
Hearing problem of evil apologetics makes me wanna stick tooth picks in my eyes. Great video so far, every point you're making is on point. I appreciate you and what you do
Same, its just so inexcusable. Thank you!
@@SydBodeker the problem of evil is a fallacy
@@SydBodeker I thought you atheists do not believe in objective morality
OMG.. so many valid points man.. Every Christian needs to watch this.. the only answer is to say ‘his ways are not our ways’ cos there’s no way to explain this logically
Appreciate that very much!
@@Dzemaily I thought you atheists do not believe in objective morality
God's only fault, only weakness, that excuses everything, is that he doesn't exist.
@@timothymulholland7905 I thought Atheists didn’t believe in objective morality. So how can you judge the goodness or existence of God by a standard you don’t believe exists?
28:09 "Oops! Does that offend someone?" Had me rolling. It is so ridiculous when you say it out loud.
Thank you for continuing to take on subjects like this. It is so helpful in navigating the BS engrained in my thinking.
Lol thank you!
The people who think a peaceful world would be boring. Are not creative. People would be more open and fun in general. If they didn't have to worry about so many things. If they realized how much suffering stifles/restricts people.
Yes, pain doesn't bring people closer to God, but makes them angry.
@@whitemountainapache3297 Happiness is a way better way of bring people together.
I know right. That is why societies do not flourish is war zones.
My creativity went way down when I was sick.
@@AllanPeak-ye5qs That does happens. But when the pain goes away you will be able to think more.
This truly is your best video, Brandon! Mazel tov! You could not be more correct: if an existence w/o suffering is "boring" (the most insipid excuse that I've ever heard), then how will that change in heaven?
appreciate that so much!
Pain could hurt half as much as it does and it would still provide enough evolutionary impetus for the species but would limit our misery.
@@meertin298
By what standard is misery bad?
@@andrewwilson9183 Let's instead call it suffering. Physical suffering requires no philosophical standard of good or bad. Pain beyond a certain threshold is objectively bad for the animal experiencing it. A gazelle having its bones crushed under the force of a lion's bite is objectively bad for the gazelle. I know where your question is leading, and it doesn't work with physical pain.
@@meertin298
Are you not making a prescriptive statement?
My friend is a biologist who yesterday told me that in some parts of the world praying mantises catch small birds, firmly hold them with their strong arms and eat them alive. How exactly is this level of suffering necessary for the free will of humans?
In Imbeggar’s example he has the individuals given the concepts of right and wrong when they were created. So not like the Genesis account where knowledge of right and wrong is only obtained after eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. You need knowledge to be able to resist the temptation but the temptation is the knowledge. Insane.
Not to mention that post-fall, whatever the "embedded goodness & evil" software patch is an absolute joke. PROVE that all societies, for all time, didn't accept at least ONE violent, oppressive, dismissive, ignorant with no ability, or understanding to push back on it. They may have some consensus on some, but the point is one disables the patch for that time & place.
I know right, and that’s on top of how ridiculous it is to put the “do not touch!” Tree right smack dab in the middle of their living area (aka the garden).
@@norrecvizharan1177 Yep, putting the tree there and then creating the snake to tell them to eat from it. Seems like this deity was literally doing everything in his power to make them disobey him. Omniscient yet pretends like he is giving them a choice. He knew what the result would be. It’s like a game of “how can I mess with them to keep myself entertained.”
yes, quite a few times he was unwilling to have it all start as poorly as the perfect god of his religion did.
@@MindShift-BrandonI bet it was very intentional also. He didn’t pick the plan in Genesis because it would make his deity look bad. He picks a different one. How can one improve on perfection? 🤪
Haha, so the "engineers" who can intervene into the thoughts of their "robots" have to have a mediator now to communicate their thoughts and intentions for them? Perfectly logical conclusion.
lol! yup
I dunno if I considered it clever or obnoxious how he just slid robot Jesus in there. 😂
@@CatDaddyGuitar
Well if that is what God decided then it’s what God decided
@@andrewwilson9183 What God? Which God? The one who wants to be worshipped "above all other Gods " , but remains hidden, behaves like a typical tribal god and has just as much agency in your life as a Marvel character? Groovy 👍🏼 let me know when you can actually show that.
@@CatDaddyGuitar the vague God of monotheism
17:42 Great point! If suffering is necessary for happiness, then why do Christian parents strive to keep their children away from harm?
@@BeccaYoley That is a good point, but the argument from suffering is still a terrible argument.
Immediately I could tell the IMbeggar guy has no idea what he's talking about by his assertions about Ai
Agreed ❤
Dang even a world without human trafficking alone would be so much of a better place. And the lack of trafficking would somehow make this world boring? That’s a serious stretch
yup, its a truly gross excuse.
@@jamie5mauser I thought Atheists didn’t believe in objective morality. So how can you judge the goodness or existence of God by a standard you don’t believe exists?
@CrabO2
Your statement is irrelevant to my statement.
You do not believe in objective good.
As for human trafficking, God allows it, thus it is good somehow, though it still violates the prescriptions of providence
In Exodus, God clearly states that if "God lets it happen" a murderer can go to a designated safe zone. That's pretty on the nose.
@@widescreennavel and
One of your best videos yet. Thank you for beeaking this video down and making it inescapablly simple.
Oh man, appreciate that so much!
If I created my own world, I wouldn't make disease a thing.
I wouldn't make psychopaths incapable of empathy.
I wouldn't make a world of total perfection, but it wouldn't have extreme unnecessary suffering either.
Pointless suffering perfectly cancels out the claim of a loving, compassionate all powerful god.
God does not "allow" suffering, He CREATES suffering. He is the Creator of all things.
The twisted logic of mister anonymous @imbeggar is a perfect example of what religion (god belief) does to an otherwise intelligent person.
This is how you share and spread cognitive dissonance.
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well humasn free will cause lots the suffering, God is reponsable for etenaly roasting in hell tho for not beliving right "faith"!
God determines what is good. God allows suffering, because there is some sufficient goodness to it. Even if we don’t understand it.
@@JamesRichardWiley I thought you atheists didn’t believe in objective morality. So by what standard do you assume that suffering is bad, and that God shouldn’t cause suffering?
@@NightmareRex6
That isn’t even what most Christians believe
Proposal for free-will preserving world patch 4.0:
1. Children under age 3 are immune to natural disasters, infection and cancer.
2. A person who's suffering can accept heaven and immediately die.
(Engineers confirmed these patches don't break free will or turn everyone into robots.)
Why only children under the age of 3? Why can't everyone be immune to cancer?
@@adriani9432 Apparently, some people may want cancer, or to cause cancer, or to overcome cancer, or to cure cancer. I figure 3yo is about the emotional age of Adam and Eve's sin so we start getting into conflict with the Bible at some older ages.
Apparently, God is mighty invested in free will until you die.
imbeggar used to be my go-to channel when I was a Christian so I was READY for your response to this video
You sir are my favorite anti-apologist!! Extremely well presented, logical and rational!!
Thank you so much for that!
@@thomashugus5686 I thought you atheists didn’t believe in objective morality. So by what standard do you assume that suffering is bad, and that God shouldn’t cause suffering?
Brandon, I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again, although I admire and respect all of your work, it’s these videos that you present with such passion, fire, honesty, and vulnerability that really have the greatest impact in my opinion. It’s one thing to break down arguments with rationality and a scholarly approach, it’s quite another when you simply come at this from a human being and present the thoughts and experiences that you’ve endured when engaging with Christianity. I can so relate to everything you’ve said here. Thanks for another incredible video. And that dude’s video that you deconstructed was absolutely absurd. It amazes me that Christians would actually think so little about the content they’re creating.
Thank you so much man
@@GarrettRHall I thought Atheists didn’t believe in objective morality. So how can you judge the goodness or existence of God by a standard you don’t believe exists?
It would a good idea Brandon to do a separate video on the zoroastrian influence on Christianity, esp given the problem of evil argument.
@@VelmadeM0naco I thought you atheists didn’t believe in objective morality. So by what standard do you assume that suffering is objectively bad?
@andrewwilson9183 I was referring to the problem of evil in a zoroastrian dualistic context. Evil can be explained with zoroastrianism because there is a separate God of evil called Angra Maniyu that was not created by the 'good' god Ahura Mazda. I'm obv simplifying the issue, but that's the general context. As for my own morality, now I can't speak for all atheists, but I tend to get my sense of good and evil from my ability to empathize with others.
@@VelmadeM0naco
My argument is that if there is no objective good or evil, then God if real, is morally neutral.
So you can’t simultaneously claim that the idea of God is evil and that objective morality doesn’t exist simultaneously.
To me one of his mistakes is saying we have to make a simulation world that exactly mirrors the real world. Many people I have talked things over with would have made a different world in the first place. Many have said they would eliminate predation or animal suffering. So this guys proof is just I'm making stuff up? How is it an inevitable effect of intervention that the simulation would crash? I mean this guys microphone glitched what he really said was "everything worked out and it was perfection."
This guy must've just watched The Matrix Reloaded....his premise is the speech given by the Architect! Another great vid, Brandon, thanks 👍
Excited for this one!!!
Appreciate you being here
I would much prefer boredom over what we have now. At least the boredom would be peaceful!
@@leslieyancey5084 I thought Atheists didn’t believe in objective morality. So how can you judge the goodness or existence of God by a standard you don’t believe exists?
Your arguments completely demolish this awful myth of a good god full of love.
What a relief to watch this video!!! 👏👏👏
Thank you very much!
@@DAYSE368 I thought Atheists didn’t believe in objective morality. So how can you judge the goodness or existence of God by a standard you don’t believe exists?
I think the "you'd have done it the same way" argument is so privileged. Imagine going to a starving child in Turkana and tellin him, "if you had God's power and were the one who made it, you'd have made it so you'd still have to slowly starve to death ".
@@RegalLouise247 I thought Atheists didn’t believe in objective morality. So how can you judge the goodness or existence of God by a standard you don’t believe exists?
The amount of suffering that happened on the island of Haiti/Hispaniola alone is enough to show this god is not all loving or all powerful or either. From human caused suffering to 250,000 people dying because of an earthquake.
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@@Nero-Caesar I thought you atheists didn’t believe in objective morality. So by what standard do you assume that suffering is bad, and that God shouldn’t cause suffering?
@@andrewwilson9183 My own subject morality sees people being trapped under rubble and slowly dying as bad. And anyone who caused it or let it happen morally evil
Thank you so much for your compassion on those of us who experienced abuse 😢 I would have rather never been born than to have to live through the abuse and the aftermath of what it does to the mind. It challenges my faith every single day. My Christian community practices so much toxic "positivity" that I feel more compassion from atheist. So thank you ❤
So sorry to hear that!
28:59 Oh my god, this is so funny. "The world is unfair, but afterward, there will be perfect justice." For me, that has always been the biggest tell that this was a religion invented by people. It is the ultimate revenge fantasy. "Yes, everything is unfair now, but just you wait! In the end, the bad people will get what they deserve, and you will be rewarded!" It's pure cope.
@@biologezwei What’s wrong with this hope or belief?
I was raised in the church. I still believed even after getting molested by my stepdad. I hated my girl parts and prayed to be a boy. At 66, I no longer believe. Why did God let this happen? Why the innocent children? Ruined my life. Kept thinking I must be doing something wrong and bad. I now believe in myself and I am happy, I was never happy with God.
I am so sorry to hear how much hurt you have had!
@@cherylmcconnell4380 I thought Atheists didn’t believe in objective morality. So how can you judge the goodness or existence of God by a standard you don’t believe exists?
@@andrewwilson9183 who said I was atheist??
@@andrewwilson9183 don't know what you're trying to say. I know the difference between good and evil,right and wrong. It's pretty much common sense.
@@MindShift-Brandon I appreciate that. Thank you. I've been looking for answers since it happened and continued happening until I moved away with relatives.
Conscience as proposed by Christianity is putting a bias into people's thinking and behaviour. That's already infringing on free will, regardless of how subtle it may seem. So much for the "absolute control" vs. "absolute freedom" dichotomy.
I do not understand your argument.
Yes we humans have a conscience, in as much as we have an intellect. But the will is free to defy the conscience.
@@dasbus9834 I thought Atheists didn’t believe in objective morality. So how can you judge the goodness or existence of God by a standard you don’t believe exists?
@@dasbus9834 I do not understand your argument.
Yes we humans have a conscience, in as much as we have an intellect. But the will is free to defy the conscience.
@@andrewwilson9183 _I thought Atheists didn’t believe in objective morality_
Some do so you'd be wrong here.
_So how can you judge the goodness or existence of God by a standard you don’t believe exists?_
I didn't. However it's certainly possible to point out the inconsistencies of a position without subscribing to it.
_I do not understand your argument_
That does indeed seem to be the case.
My version of the problem of evil has always been: Why do animals suffer? If you want to say that human suffering is caused by human sin (original sin or otherwise) or that suffering was necessary for human growth (intellectual or spiritual), then why do dogs get cancer? Why do birds and every other animal suffer from parasites? Why do wildfires burn dear and koala bears to death? Even if you can make some kind of excuse for human suffering, why do animals have to suffer? What good can possibly come from an animal drowning or dying from dehydration and thirst?
Great point!
1000%!
Especially from animals that never even get anywhere near a human, so their suffering has no impact on us.
The old answer was, and I'm being quite serious here, that animals just couldn't suffer. You basically have to deny that they can to make any sense of these theodicies. The problem is, people darn well know their pets can suffer, and research has shown how insightful and empathetic some animals are (such as crows). Everybody knows animals can feel pain, so the question comes roaring back.
That is one main argument against a benevolent deity. I love animals. As a child, I could not understand why a god would create a world in which animals had to be killed for other animals to survive. Even the intense suffering and savagery the animals endured such as being eaten alive made me realize that there is no loving god. It is really a brutal world. Also, the vast destructive natural catastrophes that continually plague our planet prove there is no god that gives a crap about his creation.
Great break down. Free will, as its used in these type of arguments, always feels incoherent to me. As a programmer with advanced AI programming experience, the only way's I can make an AI who can make non-predictable choices is via a random number generator (and even then technically true random doens't exist in programming, it would be theoretically possible to predict just not reasonably for a human). The reason an AI who isn't relying on a RNG to decide its actions might act in a way I didn't expect is not because its choices weren't predictable, weren't controller by the input I gave them, but because I lacked the mental capability to grasp how the programming I gave it would respond to all the inputs it received that led up to that unpredicted action.
In other words, the only way for god to make an intelligence whose actions said god couldn't predict, would be if said god themselves lacked the intelligence necessary to anticipate the results of their programming. Saying free will is even a possibility for creatures a god made is basically calling that god, if not dumb, at least sup optimal in intelligence. Even then, the actions of that creature would still all be the result of the intelligence that god gave it, 100% controlled by that god, just said god wouldn't have the intelligence to realize they were, say, giving a creature an intelligence which would make them be a serial unaliver at the time they were bestowing it, but they WERE still the one who did it, that creature could be no other way then the way the creator made them, so the responsibility would fall on the creator themselves for that creatures actions. They would still, effectively be a controller robot, just the controller would be one who didn't have the capacity to grasp the impact of the control they were weilding.
@@DanTheMeek The Will isn’t a computer program
@@andrewwilson9183 As far as I can tell the biggest difference between human Will or the Will of any other animal, and the Will a computer program has, is that as of 2024, we currently have a better understanding of how to predict and control the latter. But we're getting there in the former, as we continue to make strides in understanding how our brains and their unique chemistry, inform our decisions. We're all just following our programming, and just as computers can learn and make new choices based on previous results and new data input, so can we, but in any given moment you and I can only make the choices are brains are constructed to make, our brain's chemical and neuron composition determines our will.
There may be other factors as well, gut bacteria, for instance, is always showing up in interesting studies as a potential influence on our "will", but that doesn't make it any less programming, just another factor to consider when trying to understanding any given persons "code" and thus predict their future actions.
I don't love all the implications of that, its scary to think we may some day have the capacity to literally alter a person's brain, rewrite their code, or even just reduce people down to "good code" and "faulty code" in some fashion, but that I don't like the implications doesn't make the source of those implications any less true.
Further, I would suggest it makes it all the more essential that we not put our heads in the ground, wanting to make more of a human's will then what it actually is, and in our ignorance make ourselves even more vulnerable to the manipulations and the machinations of those who would use these truths to harm us and others.
@@andrewwilson9183Well true , we don't fully understand how our minds work on a quantum level . Free will could very well exist , the mind could more than a simple computation
But with the current understanding , free will seems impossible
I can't imagine being bored in a world where I know I'm safe to live in and be around other people, no mental illness to tire me out and no long hours at work that take up all my time in a day. There's just too much to do and explore to ever be bored.
I’m new to your channel, thanks to the podcast with Kristy Burke (I follow her). Your arguments are well thought and explained in a way easy to understand. I wish my evangelical family and friends would see your videos with an open mind! Thank you!
Appreciate that very much and thanks for coming over!
@@elizabethduran3435 I thought you atheists didn’t believe in objective morality. So by what standard do you assume that suffering is bad?
Brutal honest insight, Brandon. Excellent video. Your point about natural disasters could have applied to question #6. "If all the bots freely chose to follow the protocols, or Him, would there be any evil and suffering?" Well, evil (depending on how it's defined) no. But suffering, yes, because there are outside influences not controlled by the bots, nor written into their protocols (that the engineers allow), such as natural disaster.
Thanks so much!
@@ReasonQuest I thought you atheists didn’t believe in objective morality. So by what standard do you assume that suffering is bad, and that God shouldn’t cause suffering?
@@andrewwilson9183 Do you not agree that suffering is bad? Why do you try to avoid suffering? If you are like most people, and you think useless suffering is bad, you certainly don't get that morality from God; "his book" is full of needless suffering-at his own hand.
I get my morality the same place we all do: culture, societal norms, the drive to succeed, and learned human empathy. This is why "morality" changes from culture to culture and group to group. I bet the Puritans who settled in the New World-people who believed in the same God and Bible you probably do-would be horrified to see what goes on in churches today. Just the clothing would make them shudder.
If "God's objective morality"-from the Bible-is the standard for life on Earth, you can have it; I want nothing to do with it.
So in order for some people to feel like they are better than everyone else untold people must suffer and we are all held back.
I get the sense from the "Perfection would be boring" apologetic idea is that the Christians arguing it start from the assumption that "Improving/overcoming adversity and suffering are the true good/true purpose of life".
To put it another way, they see life as like an obstacle course. You start at birth, run your way through life, facing all the hurdles and challenges, and then you die and get Heaven as your reward. They CRAVE that sense of accomplishment, and without that, they would find life "boring".
It's just a suspicion, but I think THAT is what at least some of them are REALLY saying when they use that argument. "I need to feel like I'm being rewarded for doing something/for being good". Essentially, they need their egos stroked by God, so to them, thing being good all on its own takes any worth out of their lives. They NEED that head-pat at the end of the day.
Okay, right at 22:40 he just pretty much states it plainly.
It's impossible to make sense out of nonsense, which is what all religious apologetics try doing but always fail at miserably.
@@martin2289 I thought you atheists didn’t believe in objective morality. So by what standard do you assume that suffering is bad, and that God shouldn’t cause suffering?
@@andrewwilson9183 Some do, some don't. Personally, I believe that morality is a relative thing, generally speaking. I don't need a divinely inspired "standard" to make moral assessments with respect to what is right and wrong, what causes harm to others or prevents suffering, etc. And most probably neither do you.
@@martin2289
1. Then the problem of evil and suffering should not be used as an argument against monotheism.
2. There is the ontology of goodness and the epistemology. It is the stance of natural law theory that God is the source of values, though such values are revealed in nature.
@@andrewwilson9183 Maybe so. However, it doesn't play out in actuality (obviously) and such an ontology is utterly devoid of any grounding in empirical reality.
@@martin2289
Do you believe that the existence of God would need to be validated by the scientific method ?
I can understand and appreciate how good waters tastes without having to have been extremely thirsty, I can like food without having to have starved, I don't get why so many people have this problem apparently but it makes absolutely no sense.