You are doing it again you are talking about the new testament God infact this new testament God you are talking about originates from the persian faith. The old testament God ie the sumarian and hebrew God even in the book of enoch, God is not represented in the same non physical way there is no God that is in essence moral soul spirit devil ect. Satan is a character that emerged in the ancient world during the Persian Achaemenid Empire, which began around 550 BCE. The name Satan comes from the Hebrew words ha-Satan, where ha means "the" and Satan means "opposer" or "adversary". This is when this new testament God started influencing the old testament hebrew texts. so you must be able to see your idea of God is not the same old testament God the God from the bible. you probably won't read this or pay any attention to what i have stated probably because it does not fit your view, and all your talk about your question's into faith and your focus around new testament idea of God while dissmissing any evidence of a different interpritation especialy a older and more original text. and i am starting to lose intrest as you have nothing to say of any particule inportance. try talking about enlil and enki from the sumarian text about how different they are to the new testament idea of God.
I am not really concerned about what any particular person BELIEVES. You may believe that there is an old man with a white beard perched in the clouds, that the Ultimate Reality is a young blackish-blue Indian guy, that the universe is eternal, that Mother Mary was a certifiable virgin, or that gross physical matter is the foundation of existence. The ONLY thing that really matters is your meta-ethics, not your meta-physics. Do you consider any form of non-monarchical government (such as democracy or socialism) to be beneficial? Do you unnecessarily destroy the lives of poor, innocent animals and gorge on their bloody carcasses? Do you believe homosexuality and transvestism are moral? Do you consider feminist ideology to be righteous? If so, then you are objectively immoral, and your so-called "enlightened/awakened" state is immaterial, since it does not benefit society in any way.
Why does it need to the letter combination GOD? Come up with a new word for a new meaning, otherwise big danger of equation fallacy. Delusion that eg. person in ancient times is talking about the same thing
Let's not forget that Rainn's religion, the Baha'i Faith, excommunicates believers who are openly gay. Just another fake religion full of bigotry and hate. There are so many contradictions in the Baha'i writings.
As to a devil there is no doubt, but it is he trying to get in or trying to get out? Nice discussion. I'd have loved to be there and shared this conversation with you both.
Hey rain huge fan and former Bahai. I just wanted to say that I’m a Christian now and one thing I wanted to ask you is how can you believe the Bahai principle of evil not existing when we see evil in our day to day and the old and New Testament speak to a physical and spiritual embodiment of evil
@@koushakoshkbaghi3159 Former Baha'i here too :) Evil does not objectively exist. Good does not objectively exist. It is just our collective subjective experiences of what we like and don't like that that we give the labels evil and good.
@@koushakoshkbaghi3159 If you notice they trash Christianity subtilty while claiming to believe in all religions, you will never here them do the same to islam, hindu, buhdah etc. he will never say Christ is king or God in the flesh. the arguments are always against straw men and not what is actually in the bible in its full context and what Christians really believe. the word sin wasnt high jacked. with out Christ's blood there is no redemption. but i guaranty rain couldn't give you a genuine description of the sacrifice system set forth to the Levitical priests and how the only pure human to ever exist had to fulfill it for our redemption. they have zero understanding that christ was not just a prophet. they think all prophets were sinless, its a lie they spew out, they have no understanding that all prophets were sinners except Christ. just look at all the slavery, pdf file and war mohumid got up to that the bahais say he was from the same god as Christ. the quran denies the crusifiction of christ, yet somehow bahis say its the same god. ridiculous. as for the existence of evil, they will mock you for speaking of exorcizing demons with the name of christ and the power of the holy spirit. again showing their disingenuous claim of believing in the christ of the bible. when you dont believe sin opens doors for demons to possess you and try to minimize it all down to just little mistakes then you enable evil to rule. its that simple. rain enables evil to rule.
@@koushakoshkbaghi3159 If you notice they trash Christianity subtilty while claiming to believe in all religions, you will never here them do the same to islam, hindu, buhdah etc. he will never say Christ is king or God in the flesh. the arguments are always against straw men and not what is actually in the bible in its full context and what Christians really believe. the word sin wasnt high jacked. with out Christ's blood there is no redemption. but i guaranty rain couldn't give you a genuine description of the sacrifice system set forth to the Levitical priests and how the only pure human to ever exist had to fulfill it for our redemption. they have zero understanding that christ was not just a prophet. they think all prophets were sinless, its a lie they say, they have no understanding that all prophets were sinners except Christ. just look at all the slavery, pdf file and war mohumid got up to that the bahais say he was from the same god as Christ. the quran denies the crusifiction of christ, yet somehow bahis say its the same god. ridiculous. as for the existence of evil, they will mock you for speaking of exorcizing demons with the name of christ and the power of the holy spirit. again showing their disingenuous claim of believing in the christ of the bible. when you dont believe sin opens doors for demons to possess you and try to minimize it all down to just little mistakes then you enable evil to rule. its that simple. rain enables evil to rule.
@@gavinpicard3003 It surly lays bare all the bullshit pontificating people do about what is god really. Every last one of those conversations is fartsniffing trying to find an intellectual excuse for the idiocy of the idea of Christianity.
I appreciate this dialog so much, because it references so much of what I've been thinking about for the last year and more. The limitations of language in particular is something that we as erstwhile believers need to grasp and wrestle with. Thanks to both of you for this peek into something larger than what it appears to be.
As a massive fan of the US Office, it's so surreal to see Rainn praising a UA-camr I've watched for years from humble beginnings. You're a brilliant man Alex. You have a long, great future ahead!
I have met one Baha'i person in my entire life. I was a truck driver, and i was passing through Portland, oregon when i had to stop for the night. I met a homeless man outside of a Macdonalds who was asking for some spare cash. At this moment, I can't remember if i had any cash on me or not, but i invited him to come inside and eat dinner with me. We ate together inside the McDonald's and talked for about 3 hours about EVERYTHING. this included religion, in which he explained his religious faith of Baha'ism. Our conversation was very fruitful and I'll never forget it.
I'm glad your conversation with the Baha'i man was so positive. I'm a Baha'i myself and it always makes me happy when other people like to learn about it.
Really cool hearing Rainn talk about the original meaning of sin. He is right about the connotations of sin and the fact that it’s not what a Christian should believe separates us from God, as we are all sinners. Jesus came for all sinners, and simply says that faith in Him is all that’s required.
One of the many nice things about Christianity (I'm not a committed Christian at this point but thinking everything through) is the idea that God demystified himself for us. God is by nature hidden outside of time and space, and we can't really know anything about him, so God became a human being and came to meet us. If it's true it makes the universe a very cozy place. edit: What a lively comments section
"God is by nature hidden outside of time and space". I think that this is a very Newtonian, classical and deist perspective. I think this is a non-trinity view of Christianity. A Spinoza-Einstein synthesis view would be something along the lines of "god is space-time". In a Thomas Hobbes view of the world, this would mean that god is some kind of leviathan creature and we are all 1 part of it. If God was Jesus and God was the burning bush; then God has been of the world. God is also the holly spirit that remains in the world. I think that this is more along the lines of a trinity belief. I think there are many interpretations and meanings of Christianity. It is a very adaptable religion and it is why it has survived as long as it has.
@jackkrell4238 i think what he meant in saying is god is outside of space and time he's beyond it, and supposedly created it. God is spiritual non material being, an eternal being. Which then it's plausible than he can't be something that we can comprehend but in christianity by sending himself down so than we can understand him. It comes from the new testament that "the word became flesh" the logos came before us so that we may understand it according to christianity. It's definitely thought provoking if anything. I could be wrong in understanding 🫠
My man is on the come up. I remember being a subscriber of Alex when he was showing his 1000th subscriber and now he's at 1 million and has Rainn Wilson on his show. Love it. Atta boy Alex ur early subs are so proud of you.
yeah I remember the days of 100k, just as I remember unsolicited advice at 8k. It's a testament to people thinking more and it almost becoming cliche in a way - its great.
I’ve practiced meditation and read classical Indian texts like the Bhagavad Gita and the Upanishads. When I was 18 I had an experience where I felt the boundaries of my body dissolve and that the only thing that is really is the ocean of love and bliss that was flowing through me. This has been my foundation of understanding what “God” is. No one can convince me that god is any one thing because that experience showed me that GOD IS EVERYTHING EVERYWHERE AT ALL TIMES. My task will always be to become rooted in that experience ❤
I think the notion of God is entirely dependent upon the lived experiences of the individual. I have snowboarded for years now, but i only get to go abroad a couple of times per year. I remember on this one trip to Austria, on the last day of the holiday, we were on the chair lift heading back towards our chalet. The chair lift was very high up and was taking us over the resort horizontally towards another run down the mountain. The sun was low with a smattering of silver and orange / red cloud, I was with 3 of my best friends and we'd had an amazing day. The view was spectacular. I felt this surge of elation that I had never experienced before or since other than when my daughter was born. Even recalling this memory gives me a small taste of the feeling again. It was pure joy. If I was a theist, I might have been tempted to say that it was religious transcendence. And i can even see how the feeling I had could be felt by somebody who loves choir, or prayer. I just think that mainstream religions, specifically the Abrahamic faiths, have tried to claim these emotions as their own.
I don’t think they do try to claim those things, but perhaps they do attribute something like a sunset, which seems self evidently so, to what created or allowed that sunset to be. I’m talking about God of course. Like when you receive a gift (or see a sunset) you don’t thank the gift or the sun, you thank who gave it to you.
Nature inspires me and brings an intense sense joy from time to time. Nothing religious. Just pure elation and awe over trees, sunsets, water, wildlife
@@forplaylistsetc I'm not denying your feelings. I'm denying your interpretation of them. A mother of four is told by god to kill her kids. I guess her feelings are just as good as yours.
Seems like an unsubstantiated leap to say abrahamic faiths attempt to claim that feeling as their own. Most theists acknowledge people can have that sort of experience without it having to be a religious transcendent event
Thats the thing I always tell religious believers. These sense of wonder and emotional attachment is not inherent to them and is found in ANY belief system and is more a measure of tribalism and your belonging to a group of people who interpret things the way you do and foster common view about things. Irrespective of its actual TRUTH about how everything truly works and the true nature of reality. Richard Carrier on his book 'Sense and Goodness without God' on section 10 on emotion imo explained the rational framework for exaplaining how emotions work and why they can be flawed. Essentially, Carrier spouts that for many religious believers, Capital 'T' truth is secondary to the emotional and existential benefits their beliefs provide. The value of religious beliefs for many lies in their ability to satisfy emotional needs, not in whether its actually rooted in the actual underlying fact of how nature and reality actually works. Derek Lambert of Mythvision for example, Told the story of oddyseus to her religious Aunt. His Aunt literally cried in tears hearing the story. The faith of many socialists in Marxism has indeed transformed some into more loving people, as they come to love the common man and care for his needs and welfare. Does that make Marxism true? The faith of many adherents of Dianetics has transformed them into loving people. Does that make Scientology true? The faith of Jim Jones’ followers made all of them, by all accounts, into much more loving people than they had been, even up to the moment they drank the poisoned punch. Was Jim Jones, then, right after all? Hardly. Thus, the transformative power of religion is no indication of its truth, but rather of a universal human longing for a loving society where we can experience happiness and purpose. But we do not need any supernatural dogma to have that. Secular Humanists can fall in love with an ideal, too-with nature and humanity-and their lives are likewise transformed by this just as much as for any religious devotee.
Some of the best conversations between two people can be about the idea of a God, but only if both people willing to learn from the other person, instead of trying to bend the other to their position or opinion.
I guess. I have a saying: theology is ontology *ON BLACK ICE* ( and, relatedly, teleology is metaphysics *ON BLACK ICE* ). I think that speculating about an entity said to be utterly beyond/transcendent to us is largely a waste of time. I think we should stick to studying and speculating upon being (ontology) and how reality is on a general level (metaphysics).
I highly recommend to everyone the book: Your Life Your Game by keezano! I read it and it changed my life, it shows how connecting with God and your inner self can lead to spiritual growth and financial success. A must read...God bless
@@Adamantos-Elean That is your opinion and you are entitled to that, no reason to push others to try and see the world in a way you want them to see it. live and let live
Completely agree. The point should be to share our thoughts, insights and understandings with one another with the goal of advancing our learning together rather than conflict or debate.
As a Christian I can listen to Alex so much more because, even though we disagree in the end, he makes the best attempt that any atheist I see in modern day to better understand the theology of Christianity to better communicate with Christians. He still get's his jabs in, but they mean more because he seems to better understand what he's talking about. I hope all atheist can learn from him. The reverse can't be done for Christians seeing as Atheists don't have a generic decree, but I am more enganged also when Christians listen and engage Atheists on their valid points. I see that there is less talking past each other when Alex talks to Christians or others.
He should try to understand Islam because Christians don’t even understand their own religion. Also, Islam is more clear and logical. There’s only one God, not three.
IMO, as a Christian, Alex is a positive example of one debating and dialoguing in good faith. A model for an Atheist or Theist. He got on Dinesh's case in public debate quite a bit, a little too obnoxiously at some points, but aren't we all human. To his credit, Alex also steelman's Christianity when speaking with Atheists who are being simplistic, reductionist, or downright prideful and lazy. Alex is cool. And he plays a decent guitar. 🤘😎👍
one who makes the claim that people are thinking about God wrong, suggests that the person themselves believes they understand how God is supposed to be thought about. something which isn't proven, or isn't provable, remains subjective until an objectivity can be determined. i think a more safe statement would be something like "we don't all think of God the same way" as to be less suggestive of an implication of what is "right" and what is "wrong" do to with an unproven (and possibly unprovable) idea.
Yes, framing it as different people possessing different ideas aligns better with such a discussion as we are really just expressing our current beliefs and ideas. We do not have a way to know if anyone is "closer" or getting "warmer" to the "correct version" of God, or a god/gods (which alone assumes there is one/any). I find humility to be respectable on this topic.
'Headshotsniper' huh? Was your target/enemy a noble one, armed as well as you? Nobody lauds the man who 'shoots fish in a barrel.' Man, I'd hate to be you when I died.
@@Research0digo who is my enemy? i have no enemy in my philosophy. the fact that you're taking that to the "grrr, when you die you'll see!" extreme shows that you fit under the category of people who believe they think they know the truth about what is undeniably the unknown. that makes you ignorant and hubris.
God is love. I can safely say Christians are thinking wrongly about God because the definition of God is clearly defined in their own bible yet they continue to project a God who is hypocritical, unloving, unmerciful, unforgiving which the Bible actually calls attributes of unrighteousness.
"Don't think - feel! It is like a finger pointing a way to the moon. Don't concentrate on the finger or you will miss all that heavenly glory." - Bruce Lee, student of philosophy (and fighting) with a quote consistent with Taoism, which is consistent with Wittgenstein.
The "finger pointing to the moon" is from a Zen saying and has nothing to do with directing one to a belief in God or "heavenly glory." It has to do with revealing that the self is illusory as a fixed form. All existence is impermanent. Focusing on the "finger" rather than what it indicates is confusing the method with the direct experience: direct experience of one's own mind, consciousness and its contents. Feeling can also be misleading as well if one regards it as revelatory. Meaning that, one has "insight" derived from "feeling" and then holds on to that. Sensations and emotions are impermanent just as thoughts are. Holding to "heavenly glory" is meeting the Buddha on the road. As another famous saying puts it, "If you meet the Buddha on the road, kill him." That experience is as impermanent as all others, so don't hold on to it as it too is subject to the flow of change. That is also confusing the finger for the moon. Wittgenstein also doesn't direct one to a belief in God, necessarily. He was an agnostic. He points out the limits of rational thought just as Buddhism does. Wittgenstein’s “Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent” in Tractatus does resonate with Buddhism and Taoism, and I get where you see the connection here with religious thinking in context of mysticism, but I think you are over reaching. I can see how I might be wrong here, and you might be correct. I don't think I'm wrong about what I stated about the finger pointing to the moon quote.
He raises a great point about debates over God not changing the atmosphere. A debate is so stringent in what it wants to achieve whereas having an "interesting conversation" about God evokes a high degree of openness to what you could talk about and how the conversation can make you feel or present yourself and your thoughts
does 'an interesting conversation about god' change the atmosphere? What does it even mean, to change the atmosphere really? No debate or conversation is ever going to settle the issue. It's a question of faith. Some people can lose or gain faith after seeing some discussion or conversation, but even when it is 'an interesting conversation about god' it is still essentially a debate and depending on internal biases different viewers will have different opinion on who was more persuasive in their arguments.
Exactly, this is why shows like Joe Rogan’s are so successful. He doesn’t make things a debate, but a long form discussions with pushback on ideas is much better imo.
Neither debate nor discussion changes the most hardened zealot because they are generally disingenuous and dishonest, especially Christians and Muslims. Both groups are renowned for their lying and subjective interpretations.
If we're thinking about God all wrong, the likelihood that we'll require a new word, non-synonymous to 'God', to describe what it is we should be thinking, will likely be exceptionally high granting the definition of "God" is already next to meaningless.
Precisely. I mean, if we're going to accept redefining that word, why not a whole bunch of other words that have been shown to be empty or bad. Ghost, demon, alchemy, vitalism, etc. Do a thorough job of confusing everyone.
The problem is that we're thinking about God, you can't get to what the word God refers to by thought. That's why thousands of years of talking over relegion has not got us one step closer.
Each person can define God according to their background, their own limitations, their experiences. At the end of the day each one who believes in a God makes that God in their own image. It's curious, yesterday I was thinking that when I was a Christian, there was a time when I believed that certain things were "sin", and I was absolutely convinced about God telling me so. A couple of years later I opened my mind a bit more, I was able to explore other opinions on the same topic, and then I changed my mind about certain things being a "sin", and I felt that this new comprehension came directly from God. In other words, I'd been talking to myself all along.
There’s a great BibleProject podcast episode somewhere where they discuss the Moses and horn issue. I believe Dr. Mackie made the point that the word resembling horns is likely intentional as part of the theme of the sacrificial lamb up on the mountain offered to God. If you recall, Moses stood in the gap between God and Israel as a kind of mediator willing to die for the people. Really cool stuff.
Fascinating that the discussion started with a critique of people imagining what God is and then worshiping that construct but then turned to Raine describing how he thinks of God. Same process, different construct. God - made by people, for people. :)
Im Christian but love learning and questioning. and i agree, that is a really interesting observation. Do you think then that maybe throughout the ages, culture would have dictated what people wanted God to be? I'd actually be interested to see that. Like with the Norse cultures, there was always like powerful war gods and stuff, but in Israel, it was a good and all knowing God, i wonder if this indicates differences in culture, like maybe the norse were more barbaric or something. Its cool to think about
How can you critique people on the meaning of a word. It would be as if I critiqued everyone’s conception of what a “fork” is and then provided an alternative that me and my friends prefer.
@@timere2407 YHWH is hardly good or all-knowing. What if Russell Gmirkin is right that the pentateuch was constructed in about 270 BCE by a bunch of scholars inspired by Plato, especially his Laws?
Someone tell Rainn that psychedelics are used as the most excellent antidote to conventional "drug addictions". At around 10:30 into the interview, he reveals that his proclivity to become addicted keeps him from delving into the psychedelic experience. I suggest this fear is overwhelmingly unfounded.
@@bignoob1790 Yes, Sir. Psychedelics are definitely NOT a guarantee for "enlightenment". With the necessary and sufficient preparation, they may provide insight and experiences that cannot be as easily attained from any other legitimate "spiritual practice" and their pedigree is based on thousands of years of testimony. The modern prohibitions have mostly sinister motivations, being insisted upon by ignorant & barbaric legalistic authorities and self-promoting & mind-controlling religious institutions. There are potential problems, which is why the the requirement of careful, thorough, and sincere investigation before using any of those substances is mandatory before any intelligent and prudent participation is attempted.
@@adamborowicz7209 Is your comment based on any personal experience with utilizing any psychedelic? Or do you speak totally by regurgitating the opinions of others whom you have chosen to credit as "authorities"? Without personal experience, you literally do not know of what you speak. You have allowed yourself to be programmed. Shame on you, if that's the case.
As a Catholic, I too was taught that to sin was to miss the mark, and that the mark is God, who is truth, goodness, beauty, and love. We don’t “punch God” with our sins, we miss Him. This doesn’t hurt God - He doesn’t need us or anything - but as our Creator, He loves us and wants what’s best for us, which is to become what He created us to be. In the Christian tradition, we are created to become like Christ, the Son of God: self-sacrificing, forgiving, truthful, merciful, and filled with humility. I know my arrows often miss the mark, but I keep trying to perfect my aim.
@@adamborowicz7209 On the cross, Christ showed us what perfect humanity looks like with His willing act of perfect humility, dignity, and selfless love. Then He rose from the grave, proving that this kind of love is the source of life itself. This is how we are saved from Original Sin. This is how we become human beings who are fully alive: we follow the one who knows the way out of the grave.
The idea that God is an abstract concept like music is very attractive to me. The problem is many people who argue for God's existence do so with the strong implication that God is the stereotypical "bearded man in the sky". That conceptualization is metaphysically absurd and therefore makes the argument open to criticism.
I don't think one negates the other. You could be a small child looking up at an old man who appears to be "in the sky" and that is a God-like figure. Who cares for you and may punish you. Whether or not the Bible says there is a man with a beard in the sky is a non-sequiteur. It doesn't say that. Nobody serious about religion has ever said that. Is it an easier conceptualization than imagining how other spiritual realms may or may not exist? Perhaps, and that is why the Bible says Jesus is King of Kings and Lord of Lords; it might not be repititious without reason, it might infer there are other realms and other hierarchies than we may be aware of. And look at this fat bozo admit within the first 20 seconds that he didn't write, nor has even read the book the editor's put his name on. Classic Dwight!!!
The Santa Claus in the Sky concept is just that but God's existence and the idea being very wrong can and do co-exist. It's truly unfathomable for any human to completely understand God. All that's good in the world is the closest we'll know here. You don't have to believe in God to have some God in your life. Good friends, family, love etc positive, godly vibrations.
Satsang is the spontaneous rap of an enlightened master. One who experiences unconditional love and speaks out of bliss. To be experiencing this, the words do not reach deep into your heart and usher in longing as much as the energy flowing through everyone in the shared love bliss. Now that you have experienced it throughout your body and feelings, you will always crave more satsang. Your heart will feel the love and peace. You can only grow closer to oneness letting go of old limiting thoughts and feelings . See the others experiencing the satsang and they feel so close, their eyes filled with light loving all they see.
My big issue with his concept of "God" is that it almost abstracts the concept so far that it becomes a different thing entirely... Where it ceases to have the properties that we previously defined it by. When does it stop being the God that we were originally talking about? Is it even a Pantheistic representation at that point? Does it then become just a functional part of the universe as we know it? In which case we are DEFINED by it's existence. If "God is Physics" then what are we actually discussing any more? His point about the Radiohead gig (I have a similar experience of the brilliance of one of their shows- it's also strikingly similar to a moment of 'Kill Your Friends' by John Niven) is talked about widely in The God Delusion itself- how transcendent experiences don't have to be synonymous with religiosity or the supernatural. I was actually considering writing part of my dissertation on the effect of Music on effectively luring people into an environment and then an ideology. Before recorded music the only place to see it was likely to be the Church. People could easily misappropriate their love and feelings for the music as that of the "God" figure. Similar to the NSDAP's use of Wagner and other music at rallies. To induce feelings that then make people more likely to seek out that experience again. This is, fundamentally, just a beautiful moment that is subjectively framed as representative of whatever he defines this "God" to be. I thought we were seeking to ESCAPE subjective framing in this discussion?
Agreed if God is everything and all that transcends nature as well (panentheism) the word loses its meaning and anything can be justified as “Gods will”
Yeah, his idea of ‘God’ is so abstract and numinous that it essentially loses all meaning. I don’t think anyone really has the authority to say what ‘God’ should or shouldn’t mean. I like Rainn, but he’s essentially just talking in meaningless aphorisms here.
Do you have more information on the connection between music and ideology? I always found it odd how in some religions, prayer is only recited in song as opposed to just being read aloud.
Regarding Radiohead, I'm also a big fan. Regarding Dawkins on transcendent experiences with great works of art and music. I was in Florence recently and had the opportunity to see Michelangelo's statue of David and was moved to tears by it. I'm an atheist, so there's that, but the work itself was so exceptional that I was emotionally affected by it without any regard for the religious overtones of the piece. Something similar happened to me at the Louvre when viewing the Venus de Milo.
I said a VERRRRRRRRY similar thing at my first *rave* that Rainn said at Radiohead. In 2016, still hanging onto the thought of faith and Christian belief but underneath it was under a lot of turmoil. I had an incredible time at that *rave*, also first experience with MDMA. That experience put me in this really interesting head space that I can only describe as "ego death", which is sort of rare on MDMA. I processed a lot of depression and self-worth issues right on the dance floor. And then that God like feeling came in and it was warm and comfortable. But as I "sat" with it in my mind I started to realize it didn't feel like the Christian God I heard about in the bible. Over the next few years, I wrestled with this until I realized I no longer believed in YHWH in 2018. That feeling I felt was the UNIVERSE and all consciousness all life. Plants, animals, and humans; I could feel it breathing and pulsing with life and love. We are all connected. I don't think we need a "being" at all. The laws of physics, chemistry, and the natural universe are GOD enough to me.
This has more spirituality in this podcast than many other places. I really enjoyed your podcasts on Gnosticism. I feel closer to Gnosticism Christianity having been brought up catholic.
Yes. I learned a little Tibetan, and there it makes a grammatical difference whether you have seen something personally or just heard about it. Totally alien to European languages.
10:10 - This section made me think of the when Richard Dawkins rebuffal of Karen Armstrong that Daniel Dennett quoted in his AAI 2009 talk: "If sophisticated theologians or postmodern relativists think they are rescuing God from the redundancy scrap-heap by downplaying the importance of existence, they should think again. Tell the congregation of a church or mosque that existence is too vulgar an attribute to fasten onto their God, and they will brand you an atheist. They’ll be right." This is just fucking sophistry, man. You have to call it out.
You are never going to get the masses to admit defeat in a public repentance from religion in a way that erases bigoted fundamentalism from existence. The best you can hope for are the underlying definitions to change while the label remains the same. Those "sophisticated theologians or postmodern relativists" that are trying to weasel their idol out of the fires of truth are cowards and deserve to be called out, even if they probably won't. However, many of those "postmodern" thinkers are not just proposing a reactionary pivot; they've been trying to advocate for both a substantial pluralism and a more internally consistent theology from day 1 and have been mercilessly vilified because of it. I think some smug satisfaction out to be derived from the fact that these so called heretics, the even bigger targets of Evangelical cancel-culture than the atheists, are now finding a public voice and following. And what must the atheist worry about? The vague spiritualist make no such absurd moral and epistemological demands to the nonbelievers as the church does. If you're worried about fake news and ill-informed quackery, note that religion has yet to succeed from a siege on the ivory towers of science; sensationalism has yet to overwhelm a tradition of thinkers dedicated to cautious and precise thinking.
This is precisely why I'm an ignostic and not an atheist now. I can't hold a negative position to something that doesn't have a coherent, non-trivial, and non-contradictory basis.
I respectfully disagree, but before I write about why I disagree I should first say, as this is probably relevant to the discussion, that I am an agnostic. I should also disclose that I am not a big fan of Richard Dawkins and therefore biased. I disagree because it is not clear to me how saying God does not exist in the same way a pen exists is sofistry. It is also not clear to me why a congregation of believers should be considered the Golden Standard for Theism. I mean, I can imagine how this argument could be considered a valid viewpoint, but my critique is that it is not the only, and might not even be the most relevant Theist viewpoint. It seems to me, but this might be my bias kicking in, mostly a strawman argument.
@@marcelfabus5850 How is it a strawman? For something to exist, it must exist somewhere, somewhen, and have actual properties( you know, like a pen.) Also, why exactly are you an agnostic? Give me a coherent, non-trivial, and non-contradictory definition of god and then we can start talking evidence and argumentation.
"I'm doing religion right and everyone else is doing it wrong" is the only constant across all religious views. This is not a problem with "new atheists" who simply refuse to carry water for liberal religionists by accepting that their view alone is the only valid view of their religion, this is a problem with religion.
I'm neither Baha'i nor atheist (I'm catholic), but the stuff about not worshipping our thoughts instead of what they point to is powerful, and I just recently had a realisation about the importance of intuition in understanding what we can't otherwise (also helped me think less and yet accomplish so much more).
@Research0digo Both, I think (Catholic comes from the phrase meaning a general Christian, so, I'd say all Catholics, like myself, are Christians, but not all Christians are Catholics).
Might I suggest reading the original text of the Bible. It is so different in ancient Hebrew or ancient Greek than the modern English versions we have.
@@paulschuckman6604 I'm not really into reading Bible on my own, even if I knew the language, I'd still lack the knowledge of the culture and history of that time, so I'm better off just listening about it on the mass, where the priest picks out different passages and explains them so that we know what connects them, and it takes into account all the little details of the Bible which are relevant for understanding the Bible, but we wouldn't know otherwise. So, I get it, it's a good idea, but the priests at my local church already got that part covered for me.
Almost every video of yours I end up commenting the same thing. From a Christian, thank you for the kind and curious dialog discussing Faith in all of your videos. I learned some great stuff here as I always do.
As much as I appreciate that Alex wants to focus more on investigating religious belief, I have to admit, I miss the old Alex who would call people out on their bullshit.
Ye, I understand seeing others' viewpoint, but he has been very passive for years now. When was the last time Alex said something he believed in? I think the problem is him giving his own opinion might put of guests coming onto the show...
As soon as the question was posed about whether God exists in the same way as the pen, I thought “yes!” Jesus was fully human and fully divine. And I loved the analogy of being like flies trapped in the glass - unable to understand the world beyond the glass - life beyond death and God Himself! Thank you for having these thought provoking conversations. They definitely get some minds turning.
"Satan is the insistant self." Exactly. And the face of God is what appears when the illusion of self drops. The more self we see, the less God we see, and the more God we see, the less self we see. Amen!
Well said. There is no better definition of hell than being stuck in the prison of yourself, your own mind and ego, which by the way is closely related to states of depression and anxiety and other mental health conditions. Heaven could be the joy of service to others, uplifting the world of humanity, and contributing towards the advancement of civilization and society
I once was blind but now I see. The quotes in this episode remind me of myself when I was wrapped up in new age thought practicing Buddhism and quoting people like Ram Das along side Jesus. It’s a counterfeit…I promise you…don’t be deceived. What I thought was peace was false. I now look back and see it all as a sort of ego trip masked in a false humility that I was a “seeker” of sorts. (Ego trip stemming from thinking you’re enlightened) Honestly ask God to reveal Himself to you. He will. Jesus is the way the Truth and the the Life. No one comes to the Father except through Him. Sin is real because of the Glory of God. Hell and Satan are real but the deceiver does everything he can to keep you from realizing it. God loves and longs to provide a way for you to be in relationship with Him. It will change your life. Don’t wait.
Friend, consider this: the Buddha wasn’t selling anything, while Jesus was. Which one seems more trustworthy to you? Now, let’s think about this statement: "It’s a counterfeit…I promise you…don’t be deceived." Why isn’t this just an ego trip? When you say something like that, it can come across as if you’re claiming to be "enlightened" while implying that anyone who thinks differently is a "broken soul." Even if you might be right, the way it’s phrased doesn’t sit well. Turning your belief into an absolute guarantee can sound condescending. It gives the impression that you’re promising something you don’t actually have control over. Wouldn’t it be more effective to invite dialogue rather than making definitive declarations?
@@idst7365 I’m not sure what you mean by Jesus was selling. Jesus gave his life and offers life with Him at zero cost. God creating us and then also saving us makes us at extreme debt to Him. Only Jesus pays that debt for us.
I have been "in conservative religion" for my entire life. The perception of sin as a punch on God is something Ive never heard. Sin is our missing the mark of Gods righteousness. Regardless, the overall point seems right - any chance God knows we cant understand Him in our current state so he gave us His word to help us attempt to grasp who He is? Instead we come up with our own contrary thoughts that we like better and choose to worship those thoughts instead?
@@davidarbogast37Agree. ‘God’ is nothing more than a (very old) idealisation of the ‘perfect’ man, in Christianity literally embodied by Christ. The New Testament is a revision of all the aspects of the Old that no longer fit this ‘perfect’ view, proving that while there may be some philosophical ‘truths’ in the Bible, we can’t really view theology as anything more than a psychological phenomena. What truly interests me are those who cling onto these notions NOW. Anything which I know I will never understand (like quantum physics) is truly fascinating 🤣
God being described as an experience, physics and beauty is interesting and cool. Whatever a god might be, it doesn’t verify that it has the ability to communicate with humans that it is currently alive and able to speak whether ethereal or physical.
7:32 if we just came from animals and survived the environment then that would presumably mean that religion is optional, or even a sort of diversion or detour around our base nature, but this seems to fly in the face of what the guest is saying, and the cultural experiences of most of planet earth.
@@monty3854 it's a logic problem, the same one which faces any ecological theory of hominization. If various component features evolved gradually from the last common ancestor (LCA), then which ones? And why only us? The common view is that it was a migration into a new ecosystem which caused all these attributes to evolve - language (per Deacon), mimesis (per Girard), tool usage (per archeologists in general), kinship (per Freud), religion, living in groups of 150 (Dunbar), cognition, brain growth, bipedalism, thumb opposability, etc. All of these component features have their champions and they're all vying for precedence, some joining alliances as though they developed in tandem through an autocatalytic process. And yet all these component features are always traced, in gradual steps, back to a mythical last common ancestor, the only proof of which is in analogous traits in today's living primates. So the paradox is that we got here gradually, but nobody else has, and nobody remains showing those gradual steps. Nobody seems to have noticed that there's one single trait which humans have that is absolutely absent in the animal world - reciprocal object-based aggression - which I believe produces a state of combat that is constantly left open, but which also produces the recursive potential that gave rise to all things we consider human. Since this unique human capacity - basically, "violence" - cannot be understood in gradual steps, it is a blind spot to evolutionary scientists. This same always-open state of human combat is the very stuff of word creation, ritual, and kinship; but it's totally foreign to anyone thinking in a gradualistic, bottom-up way.
Rainn Wilson's intuitions about God are deep and remind me of some of the greatest Christians theologians, St. Augustine and St. Thomas Aquinas in particular. The "insistent-self" sounds extremely similar to St. Augustine's notion of sin being the "falling in on yourself" and the comment about God not existing in the same way as that pen is on par with some of Aquinas' ideas about God. Very fascinating.
Bro I've been having those kind of discussion with myself here in Africa, cause here people are really close minded. I always though that I was crazy, until I saw people from overseas thinking like me. I really appreciate it. Thank you, I'm not alone.
@@thoughtlesskills what tickles our feels the most, interesting. if you think about chakra (as a concept), the heart chakra is that energy center which connects all things. Is feeling because a lower quality than thinking or its necessary fuel?
@paulschuckman6604 yeah that's obviously an unfounded opinion rooted in superstition and mythology, and what's worse is that it's not even your own opinion. It's just an opinion that you've chosen to agree with.
I've heard the term Omnist before, but I couldn't remember the definition and had to search it. I can understand the aspect of wanting to be respectful to all religions... however, some of them have practices that are completely opposite to another one. How would you be able to serve two different gods if they are conflicting?
@@colinpierre3441 From my experience, and from my discussions with others who are similarly-minded... Omnists tend to reconcile beliefs/practices from different religions in a wide variety of ways. It really depends on the individual. We tend to be users of paraconsistent logic and even dialetheism (the philosophical position that it's possible for two contradicting propositions to both be true). We tend to treat the world's religions in much the same way that Hinduism treats its many different deities and schools: as an "all-you-can-eat-buffet" as opposed to the "fine-dining-menu" which Western religions have been the model for. Much like how Christianity was a synthesis of Judaism, Neo-Platonism, Greco-roman, roman folklore, and so on... Omnism can be considered a synthesis of all religions, made possible only via the deep interconnectivity of this global era. What has happened before, will happen again (eventually).
@@colinpierre3441 To answer your question though, for me personally -- I don't believe in more than one God. I think most Omnists tend to be monotheistic... but I'd caveat -- much like was discussed in this video: language really deceives folks here... We should try to look beyond it and see what religions may share in common first, before looking for their differences... For example, most people would classify Hinduism as polytheistic... but it isn't actually polytheistic. It's monotheistic. At least, it CAN be - when viewed from a particular angle... Brahman is the supreme being which all other deities and all beings are constituents of (us included). Enlightenment era Westerners kind of just looked at Hinduism from the outside, and slapped a label on it -- whilst missing all the rich nuance and depth. So, to answer your question -- if someone asks me if I believe in multiple "gods"; I will tell them yes - but I still only believe in ONE God whom is one with the Good. That being is ultimately what I 'serve', and other angels/daemons/gods are simply downstream of that.
@@Archeidos-Arcana That was a very detailed explanation, but there is an important factor that can be overlooked... evidence. While there are many religions, not all of them has solid evidence to support them. What if I told you that the Bible is the only religious book that has never failed to have any of it's prophecies fulfilled?
and other christians will understand sin differently. There's no definite ultimate answer to what is sin or whether it is even possible to sin, it's all just matter of interpretation and personal beliefs. And it can never be anything but that, because it's an abstract concept. Same as what is justice, what is good and what is evil. Different people will always have different interpretations.
Alex need to invite Swami Sarvapriyananda to your podcast. Eastern religions especially Hinduism are the treasure trove of spirituality. All the questions about God has been solved by the Indian spiritual traditions.
That's a definition created purely to say "nobody is an atheist"! I like banging strangers on stimulants more than anything at the moment so that's my god huh? 😑
@@ianbanks3016 Lots of modern theologians have held this view, most notably Paul Tillich in 'the dynamics of faith', where he talks about God as man's 'ultimate concern.' A shame that Peterson doesn't bother credit his influences.
If Satan was once an angel then he's not the source of evil. There's more to the story but nobody cares, easier to blame than look in the mirror or forgive.
This is true, says the Lord is behind evil and good he does all these things, he also sends out evil spirits, makes me wonder where Satan fits into that?
Alex, you have softened (in a good way). Have you been meditating or did some other process occur? Loving this podcast. I’m tiring of polarised point scoring on the internet, so this episode was refreshing. Thanks to both of you.
"Language constrains thought": I disagree. Helen Keller had some significant insight into this. I forget her specific words, but before she learned how to communicate she said she felt as though she acted through feral instinct. It wasn't until she had a language that she could escape her more feral nature. Point being, we are a constrained species; languages give us potential to escape the constraints our more feral nature.
@retcon1991 language might get us closer to God, if there were such a thing, but it's much like taking a step towards Pluto. It might be momentarily true, but ultimately inconsequential.
I dont understand, doesnt the fact that Hellen Keller described her thought as feral before learning to communicate support that language constrains thought? Having more language would make it easier to think then, or think more broadly. Its hard to think about ideas we havent even been introduced to. That said, if one defines god as something outside existence, we will forever lack the language to understand it. I'm an atheist so I dont really need to, but it interesting to think about.
Yes...which is why we are also trapped by it. Language liberates us from ignorance but it also limits our freedom to it's borders, just as our place in history and in physical space do. That's what the flies in the bowl metaphor is getting at. Language grants complex thought and allows for the sharing and growth of thoughts. But what those thoughts can be is limited by the tools of the language used. If you speak multiple languages, this idea becomes easier to understand. Certain metaphors, syntax, and expression does shape the way we see the world around us. It encodes our priorities and how our brains take shortcuts. There are concepts that are just easier to understand and talk about in one language that may also struggle with other concepts. What language tools do we not even know we lack because of human limitations? Because of things we haven't discovered yet? Languages are as living as the people who speak them, and just as fallible.
I appreciate even Job's confession, upon finally meeting God. "I had heard of you by the hearing of the ear, but now my eyes have seen you. Therefore I abhor myself in dust and ashes." - he had a concept of who he thought God was. But when God finally revealed Himself, Job realized his concepts were wrong. This is when Job's real relationship with God began.
The shock for Job at the end is to realise that the Yahweh that speaks to him is not governed by principles of justice that can be appealed to (as Job has been trying to do). Rather Yahweh does what ever HE wishes and does not have to reward and punish ON ANY BASIS OF FAIRNESS. This is the reality that appears to be the case in everyday life. The Hebrew for Job’s last words can better be translated ‘ As “and I tremble for dust and ashes” I.e. “I am scared for the consequences for human beings who are only dust and ashes.”
@craigfairweather3401 if this is true, then Christianity premise of an all loving god is totally collapsed. And Job's unconditional loyalty to god despite its violence turn to a methaphor of embracing patriarchy and facism for the sake of it.
Consider this, on the matter of God being purely good, and there being a potential for eternal punishment. Suppose you have a bit of enviousness in you. If you see someone or something that is the utter model of perfect goodness, your envy will make you wish you could be like that to the point you will implode under the weight of your own envy. Yet that model of pure goodness will wish you no harm, even to the point of wanting to take your envy out of you, if only you will allow this. You will suffer for your envy, but the model of perfect goodness will only wish you well, and your suffering would be the result of your own flaw which you refuse to give up. This is something like God being the utter model of perfect goodness, thus sending Jesus to remove our flaws if we're willing, and those who refuse suffering forever.
Hi Alex, in your conversations about God and religion it would be great to see some prominent western Muslim scholars and intellectuals apear on your channel. A few that I would recommend: 1. Timothy John Winter, also known as Abdal Hakim Murad, 2. Haza Yusuf (born Mark Hanson) 3. Omar Suleiman 4. Dr Shadee Elmasry 5. Abdelrahman Murphy 6. Nouman Ali Khan
Throwing my two cents making a pseudo objective definition: The archetype resulting from anthrophizing the universe as experienced psychologically. This is short enough to be coherent. Evidence of that would be research papers showing how the god-image tends to be similar to the experience of early parenting. Also, seeing the evolution of individuals and cultures ' beliefs about the nature of God and its reflection on their life.
About what rainn said about sin meaning to miss the mark in Greek, that is because of a mistranslation from Hebrew, like what Alex said about the word "karen". In Hebrew the word sin comes from the word clean or pure, as the sin is something that is to be cleaned. The same word also means to miss a target and therefore it was mistranselated in Greek.
*Glorious Qur'an* 41:43 مَّا يُقَالُ لَكَ إِلَّا مَا قَدْ قِيلَ لِلرُّسُلِ مِن قَبْلِكَ ۚ إِنَّ رَبَّكَ لَذُو مَغْفِرَةٍۢ وَذُو عِقَابٍ أَلِيمٍۢ ٤٣ Nothing is said to you, [O Muḥammad], except what was already said to the messengers before you. Indeed, your Lord is a possessor of forgiveness and a possessor of painful penalty. *2:136* Say, O believers, “We believe in *Allah* and what has been revealed to us; and what was revealed to Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob, and his descendants; and what was given to Moses, Jesus, and other prophets from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them. And to *Allah* we all submit.”
Seriously, Alex is too smart. I'm a person with average intelligence, I cannot comprehend his mind. I've been a Christian for some many years now, I'm 100% sure of my savior, the true and living King. But I love watching his videos.
2:39 - we are but flies within a glass, ignorant and oblivious of the "beyond, the beyond." And yet, we have a god "concept" equipped on our intellectual toolbelts. Doesn't quite jive, I'm afraid. Occam's solution here is the far more likely one; that man created god, not the other way around.
Yeah Rainn, Alex’s new approach of bringing on guests who paint the idea of God as so dynamic and fluid and unknowable so that any critique of Christianity can be hand-waved as simply a failure of language is brilliant!
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You are doing it again you are talking about the new testament God infact this new testament God you are talking about originates from the persian faith.
The old testament God ie the sumarian and hebrew God even in the book of enoch, God is not represented in the same non physical way there is no God that is in essence moral soul spirit devil ect.
Satan is a character that emerged in the ancient world during the Persian Achaemenid Empire, which began around 550 BCE. The name Satan comes from the Hebrew words ha-Satan, where ha means "the" and Satan means "opposer" or "adversary".
This is when this new testament God started influencing the old testament hebrew texts. so you must be able to see your idea of God is not the same old testament God the God from the bible.
you probably won't read this or pay any attention to what i have stated probably because it does not fit your view, and all your talk about your question's into faith and your focus around new testament idea of God while dissmissing any evidence of a different interpritation especialy a older and more original text. and i am starting to lose intrest as you have nothing to say of any particule inportance.
try talking about enlil and enki from the sumarian text about how different they are to the new testament idea of God.
I am not really concerned about what any particular person BELIEVES. You may believe that there is an old man with a white beard perched in the clouds, that the Ultimate Reality is a young blackish-blue Indian guy, that the universe is eternal, that Mother Mary was a certifiable virgin, or that gross physical matter is the foundation of existence.
The ONLY thing that really matters is your meta-ethics, not your meta-physics.
Do you consider any form of non-monarchical government (such as democracy or socialism) to be beneficial?
Do you unnecessarily destroy the lives of poor, innocent animals and gorge on their bloody carcasses?
Do you believe homosexuality and transvestism are moral?
Do you consider feminist ideology to be righteous?
If so, then you are objectively immoral, and your so-called "enlightened/awakened" state is immaterial, since it does not benefit society in any way.
Why does it need to the letter combination GOD? Come up with a new word for a new meaning, otherwise big danger of equation fallacy. Delusion that eg. person in ancient times is talking about the same thing
Let's not forget that Rainn's religion, the Baha'i Faith, excommunicates believers who are openly gay. Just another fake religion full of bigotry and hate. There are so many contradictions in the Baha'i writings.
Alex please cut this at 11:31 after he says “physics” the last minute discredits and looses us, then delete this comment.
Alex and Rain Wilson is something I never expected 😅
what a time to be alive 😂❤
Right! I was like okay let me go watch LOL😂
this isn't Rainn Wilson. It's Dwight Schrute.
@@orphia6479FALSE, it’s actually someone merely dressed up as Dwight Schrute. Don’t fall for this pretender!
It was on my 2024 bingo card
We loved having you in studio, Alex! So great having you pick our brains. Excited to have you back in studio and on OUR show very soon!! 🦄
As to a devil there is no doubt, but it is he trying to get in or trying to get out? Nice discussion. I'd have loved to be there and shared this conversation with you both.
Hey rain huge fan and former Bahai. I just wanted to say that I’m a Christian now and one thing I wanted to ask you is how can you believe the Bahai principle of evil not existing when we see evil in our day to day and the old and New Testament speak to a physical and spiritual embodiment of evil
@@koushakoshkbaghi3159 Former Baha'i here too :)
Evil does not objectively exist. Good does not objectively exist. It is just our collective subjective experiences of what we like and don't like that that we give the labels evil and good.
@@koushakoshkbaghi3159 If you notice they trash Christianity subtilty while claiming to believe in all religions, you will never here them do the same to islam, hindu, buhdah etc. he will never say Christ is king or God in the flesh. the arguments are always against straw men and not what is actually in the bible in its full context and what Christians really believe. the word sin wasnt high jacked. with out Christ's blood there is no redemption. but i guaranty rain couldn't give you a genuine description of the sacrifice system set forth to the Levitical priests and how the only pure human to ever exist had to fulfill it for our redemption. they have zero understanding that christ was not just a prophet. they think all prophets were sinless, its a lie they spew out, they have no understanding that all prophets were sinners except Christ. just look at all the slavery, pdf file and war mohumid got up to that the bahais say he was from the same god as Christ. the quran denies the crusifiction of christ, yet somehow bahis say its the same god. ridiculous. as for the existence of evil, they will mock you for speaking of exorcizing demons with the name of christ and the power of the holy spirit. again showing their disingenuous claim of believing in the christ of the bible. when you dont believe sin opens doors for demons to possess you and try to minimize it all down to just little mistakes then you enable evil to rule. its that simple. rain enables evil to rule.
@@koushakoshkbaghi3159 If you notice they trash Christianity subtilty while claiming to believe in all religions, you will never here them do the same to islam, hindu, buhdah etc. he will never say Christ is king or God in the flesh. the arguments are always against straw men and not what is actually in the bible in its full context and what Christians really believe. the word sin wasnt high jacked. with out Christ's blood there is no redemption. but i guaranty rain couldn't give you a genuine description of the sacrifice system set forth to the Levitical priests and how the only pure human to ever exist had to fulfill it for our redemption. they have zero understanding that christ was not just a prophet. they think all prophets were sinless, its a lie they say, they have no understanding that all prophets were sinners except Christ. just look at all the slavery, pdf file and war mohumid got up to that the bahais say he was from the same god as Christ. the quran denies the crusifiction of christ, yet somehow bahis say its the same god. ridiculous. as for the existence of evil, they will mock you for speaking of exorcizing demons with the name of christ and the power of the holy spirit. again showing their disingenuous claim of believing in the christ of the bible. when you dont believe sin opens doors for demons to possess you and try to minimize it all down to just little mistakes then you enable evil to rule. its that simple. rain enables evil to rule.
"The closest I ever came to God was at a Radiohead concert" oh my god I love this man.
LOL
Research his old twitter posts that he deleted. Maybe not the best role model….
@@lilyd5596 who says he is a "role model"?
@@gavinpicard3003 It surly lays bare all the bullshit pontificating people do about what is god really. Every last one of those conversations is fartsniffing trying to find an intellectual excuse for the idiocy of the idea of Christianity.
Prince, but yeah.
Let's hear what Jah Rule thinks
LOL! It's a Dave Chapelle reference right? Too funny!
Where is Ja?!
Save us Ja 😩
PLEASE!! SOMEBODY GET A HOLD OF JAH!!!
WHERE IS JA!? This is actually perfect
Hearing Dwight's voice here is wild
hearing him speak without being insane is wild haha
False. It is tame.
Omg I didn’t even realize it was Dwight
@@Kveldrunari Which makes sense because he is a good actor; there is proper separation between the actor and the character.
i keep expecting jim to pop up and pull a prank
I appreciate this dialog so much, because it references so much of what I've been thinking about for the last year and more. The limitations of language in particular is something that we as erstwhile believers need to grasp and wrestle with. Thanks to both of you for this peek into something larger than what it appears to be.
As a massive fan of the US Office, it's so surreal to see Rainn praising a UA-camr I've watched for years from humble beginnings.
You're a brilliant man Alex. You have a long, great future ahead!
My thoughts exactly
No need to say US office, just say the Office.
I have met one Baha'i person in my entire life. I was a truck driver, and i was passing through Portland, oregon when i had to stop for the night. I met a homeless man outside of a Macdonalds who was asking for some spare cash. At this moment, I can't remember if i had any cash on me or not, but i invited him to come inside and eat dinner with me. We ate together inside the McDonald's and talked for about 3 hours about EVERYTHING. this included religion, in which he explained his religious faith of Baha'ism. Our conversation was very fruitful and I'll never forget it.
I'm glad your conversation with the Baha'i man was so positive. I'm a Baha'i myself and it always makes me happy when other people like to learn about it.
Bahai here from Botswana Africa. You will receive the reciprocity everywhere in the Bahai world. We are all one
What about his religion stuck with u?
I imagine he told you all the wonderful things his faith had brought into his life 😂
Does their faith centre around scamming people for a free meal?
Really cool hearing Rainn talk about the original meaning of sin. He is right about the connotations of sin and the fact that it’s not what a Christian should believe separates us from God, as we are all sinners. Jesus came for all sinners, and simply says that faith in Him is all that’s required.
One of the many nice things about Christianity (I'm not a committed Christian at this point but thinking everything through) is the idea that God demystified himself for us. God is by nature hidden outside of time and space, and we can't really know anything about him, so God became a human being and came to meet us. If it's true it makes the universe a very cozy place.
edit: What a lively comments section
"God is by nature hidden outside of time and space" so he doesn't exist, then.
"God is by nature hidden outside of time and space". I think that this is a very Newtonian, classical and deist perspective. I think this is a non-trinity view of Christianity. A Spinoza-Einstein synthesis view would be something along the lines of "god is space-time". In a Thomas Hobbes view of the world, this would mean that god is some kind of leviathan creature and we are all 1 part of it.
If God was Jesus and God was the burning bush; then God has been of the world. God is also the holly spirit that remains in the world. I think that this is more along the lines of a trinity belief.
I think there are many interpretations and meanings of Christianity. It is a very adaptable religion and it is why it has survived as long as it has.
@jackkrell4238 i think what he meant in saying is god is outside of space and time he's beyond it, and supposedly created it. God is spiritual non material being, an eternal being. Which then it's plausible than he can't be something that we can comprehend but in christianity by sending himself down so than we can understand him. It comes from the new testament that "the word became flesh" the logos came before us so that we may understand it according to christianity. It's definitely thought provoking if anything. I could be wrong in understanding 🫠
Did you ever learn about the Islamic view of God?
@@jackkrell4238oh that means the unlimited number of universes that scientists made up to explain away the clear design of this one also don’t exist:)
My man is on the come up. I remember being a subscriber of Alex when he was showing his 1000th subscriber and now he's at 1 million and has Rainn Wilson on his show. Love it. Atta boy Alex ur early subs are so proud of you.
yeah I remember the days of 100k, just as I remember unsolicited advice at 8k. It's a testament to people thinking more and it almost becoming cliche in a way - its great.
I was there early on, around 2016 I think, where he reached around 2000 subs. He's come along way since then
I’ve practiced meditation and read classical Indian texts like the Bhagavad Gita and the Upanishads. When I was 18 I had an experience where I felt the boundaries of my body dissolve and that the only thing that is really is the ocean of love and bliss that was flowing through me. This has been my foundation of understanding what “God” is. No one can convince me that god is any one thing because that experience showed me that GOD IS EVERYTHING EVERYWHERE AT ALL TIMES. My task will always be to become rooted in that experience ❤
I think the notion of God is entirely dependent upon the lived experiences of the individual.
I have snowboarded for years now, but i only get to go abroad a couple of times per year. I remember on this one trip to Austria, on the last day of the holiday, we were on the chair lift heading back towards our chalet. The chair lift was very high up and was taking us over the resort horizontally towards another run down the mountain. The sun was low with a smattering of silver and orange / red cloud, I was with 3 of my best friends and we'd had an amazing day. The view was spectacular. I felt this surge of elation that I had never experienced before or since other than when my daughter was born. Even recalling this memory gives me a small taste of the feeling again. It was pure joy.
If I was a theist, I might have been tempted to say that it was religious transcendence. And i can even see how the feeling I had could be felt by somebody who loves choir, or prayer. I just think that mainstream religions, specifically the Abrahamic faiths, have tried to claim these emotions as their own.
I don’t think they do try to claim those things, but perhaps they do attribute something like a sunset, which seems self evidently so, to what created or allowed that sunset to be. I’m talking about God of course. Like when you receive a gift (or see a sunset) you don’t thank the gift or the sun, you thank who gave it to you.
Nature inspires me and brings an intense sense joy from time to time. Nothing religious. Just pure elation and awe over trees, sunsets, water, wildlife
@@forplaylistsetc I'm not denying your feelings. I'm denying your interpretation of them. A mother of four is told by god to kill her kids. I guess her feelings are just as good as yours.
Seems like an unsubstantiated leap to say abrahamic faiths attempt to claim that feeling as their own. Most theists acknowledge people can have that sort of experience without it having to be a religious transcendent event
Thats the thing I always tell religious believers. These sense of wonder and emotional attachment is not inherent to them and is found in ANY belief system and is more a measure of tribalism and your belonging to a group of people who interpret things the way you do and foster common view about things. Irrespective of its actual TRUTH about how everything truly works and the true nature of reality.
Richard Carrier on his book 'Sense and Goodness without God' on section 10 on emotion imo explained the rational framework for exaplaining how emotions work and why they can be flawed.
Essentially, Carrier spouts that for many religious believers, Capital 'T' truth is secondary to the emotional and existential benefits their beliefs provide. The value of religious beliefs for many lies in their ability to satisfy emotional needs, not in whether its actually rooted in the actual underlying fact of how nature and reality actually works.
Derek Lambert of Mythvision for example, Told the story of oddyseus to her religious Aunt. His Aunt literally cried in tears hearing the story.
The faith of many socialists in Marxism has indeed transformed some into more loving people, as they come to love the common man and care for his needs and welfare. Does that make Marxism true?
The faith of many adherents of Dianetics has transformed them into loving people. Does that make Scientology true?
The faith of Jim Jones’ followers made all of them, by all accounts, into much more loving people than they had been, even up to the moment they drank the poisoned punch. Was Jim Jones, then, right after all?
Hardly. Thus, the transformative power of religion is no indication of its truth, but rather of a universal human longing for a loving society where we can experience happiness and purpose. But we do not need any supernatural dogma to have that. Secular Humanists can fall in love with an ideal, too-with nature and humanity-and their lives are likewise transformed by this just as much as for any religious devotee.
crazy crossover hell yeah
4:19 Every time Alex says “Horns” he uses his fingers as a way of describing them and that is hilarious
Hahaha
I imagine whenever he's talking about horns as in the musical instrument he makes a trombone motion with his hands
Some of the best conversations between two people can be about the idea of a God, but only if both people willing to learn from the other person, instead of trying to bend the other to their position or opinion.
Yes.
Exactly
I guess. I have a saying: theology is ontology *ON BLACK ICE* ( and, relatedly, teleology is metaphysics *ON BLACK ICE* ). I think that speculating about an entity said to be utterly beyond/transcendent to us is largely a waste of time. I think we should stick to studying and speculating upon being (ontology) and how reality is on a general level (metaphysics).
Obviously that would be the case when the meaning of “God” can be adjusted to whatever the participants feel is worth discussing.
That term means nothing, it's whatever the person wants it to be. The traditional definition of it doesn't exist, it's all a fairytale.
It would be nice if the word "God" had any real-world reference...
I highly recommend to everyone the book: Your Life Your Game by keezano! I read it and it changed my life, it shows how connecting with God and your inner self can lead to spiritual growth and financial success. A must read...God bless
such a good book...
l need that💔😔
this book changed my life
God isn't real, show me a video of god speaking or appearing before ANYONE. You can't! its all bs, grow up!
@@Adamantos-Elean That is your opinion and you are entitled to that, no reason to push others to try and see the world in a way you want them to see it. live and let live
This was one of the most refreshing conversations about spirituality I have ever seen. It’s this kind of dialogue that we need more of.
Completely agree. The point should be to share our thoughts, insights and understandings with one another with the goal of advancing our learning together rather than conflict or debate.
Dwight giving life advice to Ryan for the second time..
👏🏻
Ryan started the fire!
@@joshuapena6757 Damn right he did.
As a Christian I can listen to Alex so much more because, even though we disagree in the end, he makes the best attempt that any atheist I see in modern day to better understand the theology of Christianity to better communicate with Christians. He still get's his jabs in, but they mean more because he seems to better understand what he's talking about. I hope all atheist can learn from him. The reverse can't be done for Christians seeing as Atheists don't have a generic decree, but I am more enganged also when Christians listen and engage Atheists on their valid points. I see that there is less talking past each other when Alex talks to Christians or others.
He should try to understand Islam because Christians don’t even understand their own religion. Also, Islam is more clear and logical. There’s only one God, not three.
IMO, as a Christian, Alex is a positive example of one debating and dialoguing in good faith. A model for an Atheist or Theist. He got on Dinesh's case in public debate quite a bit, a little too obnoxiously at some points, but aren't we all human. To his credit, Alex also steelman's Christianity when speaking with Atheists who are being simplistic, reductionist, or downright prideful and lazy. Alex is cool. And he plays a decent guitar. 🤘😎👍
@machtnichtsseimann Dinesh earned his ridicule
@@adamgates1142I would say Dinesh was obnoxious most of the time I’ve seen him.
IMO it feels like Alex is trying to get you to let go of that bubble you were forced into.
one who makes the claim that people are thinking about God wrong, suggests that the person themselves believes they understand how God is supposed to be thought about. something which isn't proven, or isn't provable, remains subjective until an objectivity can be determined.
i think a more safe statement would be something like "we don't all think of God the same way" as to be less suggestive of an implication of what is "right" and what is "wrong" do to with an unproven (and possibly unprovable) idea.
Yes, framing it as different people possessing different ideas aligns better with such a discussion as we are really just expressing our current beliefs and ideas.
We do not have a way to know if anyone is "closer" or getting "warmer" to the "correct version" of God, or a god/gods (which alone assumes there is one/any).
I find humility to be respectable on this topic.
'Headshotsniper' huh? Was your target/enemy a noble one, armed as well as you? Nobody lauds the man who 'shoots fish in a barrel.' Man, I'd hate to be you when I died.
@@Research0digo who is my enemy? i have no enemy in my philosophy.
the fact that you're taking that to the "grrr, when you die you'll see!" extreme shows that you fit under the category of people who believe they think they know the truth about what is undeniably the unknown. that makes you ignorant and hubris.
God is love. I can safely say Christians are thinking wrongly about God because the definition of God is clearly defined in their own bible yet they continue to project a God who is hypocritical, unloving, unmerciful, unforgiving which the Bible actually calls attributes of unrighteousness.
@@Iwillreply both Baha'u'allah and Zarathustra call God the Spirit of Truth. Baha'u'llah does also say God is the first remembrance.
"Don't think - feel! It is like a finger pointing a way to the moon. Don't concentrate on the finger or you will miss all that heavenly glory." - Bruce Lee, student of philosophy (and fighting) with a quote consistent with Taoism, which is consistent with Wittgenstein.
I thought that sounded familiar. Bruce Lee has so many amazing quotes 😊
@@Skye_7_7 Bruce was a philosophy student
@@jsmall10671
Yeah, and his quotes are “consistently” the ones I seek out & some of my favourites
"Running water doesnt go stale," is another one of my favorites by him.
The "finger pointing to the moon" is from a Zen saying and has nothing to do with directing one to a belief in God or "heavenly glory." It has to do with revealing that the self is illusory as a fixed form. All existence is impermanent. Focusing on the "finger" rather than what it indicates is confusing the method with the direct experience: direct experience of one's own mind, consciousness and its contents. Feeling can also be misleading as well if one regards it as revelatory. Meaning that, one has "insight" derived from "feeling" and then holds on to that. Sensations and emotions are impermanent just as thoughts are. Holding to "heavenly glory" is meeting the Buddha on the road. As another famous saying puts it, "If you meet the Buddha on the road, kill him." That experience is as impermanent as all others, so don't hold on to it as it too is subject to the flow of change. That is also confusing the finger for the moon.
Wittgenstein also doesn't direct one to a belief in God, necessarily. He was an agnostic. He points out the limits of rational thought just as Buddhism does. Wittgenstein’s “Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent” in Tractatus does resonate with Buddhism and Taoism, and I get where you see the connection here with religious thinking in context of mysticism, but I think you are over reaching. I can see how I might be wrong here, and you might be correct. I don't think I'm wrong about what I stated about the finger pointing to the moon quote.
Finally a non-Christian religious person! Bahais are fascinating. Cant wait for this!
Oh, Baha’i? I haven’t watched yet. Cool
What's wrong with a Christian?
@@starsar2084 I think they're saying it's just so common.
@@jsmall10671 Oh okay
@@starsar2084 “what’s wrong with a Christian?” By definition, _everything!_ (Born in sin, needing redemption, etc) 😂
"It used to be your bread and butter" AGREE! You are expanding yourself, others, and the whole conversation. Keep up the good work.
He raises a great point about debates over God not changing the atmosphere. A debate is so stringent in what it wants to achieve whereas having an "interesting conversation" about God evokes a high degree of openness to what you could talk about and how the conversation can make you feel or present yourself and your thoughts
does 'an interesting conversation about god' change the atmosphere? What does it even mean, to change the atmosphere really? No debate or conversation is ever going to settle the issue. It's a question of faith. Some people can lose or gain faith after seeing some discussion or conversation, but even when it is 'an interesting conversation about god' it is still essentially a debate and depending on internal biases different viewers will have different opinion on who was more persuasive in their arguments.
Exactly, this is why shows like Joe Rogan’s are so successful. He doesn’t make things a debate, but a long form discussions with pushback on ideas is much better imo.
Neither debate nor discussion changes the most hardened zealot because they are generally disingenuous and dishonest, especially Christians and Muslims. Both groups are renowned for their lying and subjective interpretations.
If we're thinking about God all wrong, the likelihood that we'll require a new word, non-synonymous to 'God', to describe what it is we should be thinking, will likely be exceptionally high granting the definition of "God" is already next to meaningless.
Precisely. I mean, if we're going to accept redefining that word, why not a whole bunch of other words that have been shown to be empty or bad. Ghost, demon, alchemy, vitalism, etc. Do a thorough job of confusing everyone.
The problem is that we're thinking about God, you can't get to what the word God refers to by thought. That's why thousands of years of talking over relegion has not got us one step closer.
It really is the most pompous position because what you're really saying is I'm the only one who understands.
It is simply It
@adamgates1142 no one understands. It's pompous to think we could ever come close to understanding
Each person can define God according to their background, their own limitations, their experiences. At the end of the day each one who believes in a God makes that God in their own image. It's curious, yesterday I was thinking that when I was a Christian, there was a time when I believed that certain things were "sin", and I was absolutely convinced about God telling me so. A couple of years later I opened my mind a bit more, I was able to explore other opinions on the same topic, and then I changed my mind about certain things being a "sin", and I felt that this new comprehension came directly from God. In other words, I'd been talking to myself all along.
Never knew how much I needed this
There’s a great BibleProject podcast episode somewhere where they discuss the Moses and horn issue. I believe Dr. Mackie made the point that the word resembling horns is likely intentional as part of the theme of the sacrificial lamb up on the mountain offered to God. If you recall, Moses stood in the gap between God and Israel as a kind of mediator willing to die for the people. Really cool stuff.
Yes, Moses is what Theologians call a 'type' of Jesus.
Bro he literally throws the first pair down and orders everyone killed
Awesome !
We needed a Bahai perspective with Alex
Fascinating that the discussion started with a critique of people imagining what God is and then worshiping that construct but then turned to Raine describing how he thinks of God. Same process, different construct. God - made by people, for people. :)
Yep
Im Christian but love learning and questioning. and i agree, that is a really interesting observation. Do you think then that maybe throughout the ages, culture would have dictated what people wanted God to be? I'd actually be interested to see that. Like with the Norse cultures, there was always like powerful war gods and stuff, but in Israel, it was a good and all knowing God, i wonder if this indicates differences in culture, like maybe the norse were more barbaric or something. Its cool to think about
You beat me to it.
How can you critique people on the meaning of a word. It would be as if I critiqued everyone’s conception of what a “fork” is and then provided an alternative that me and my friends prefer.
@@timere2407 YHWH is hardly good or all-knowing. What if Russell Gmirkin is right that the pentateuch was constructed in about 270 BCE by a bunch of scholars inspired by Plato, especially his Laws?
Someone tell Rainn that psychedelics are used as the most excellent antidote to conventional "drug addictions". At around 10:30 into the interview, he reveals that his proclivity to become addicted keeps him from delving into the psychedelic experience. I suggest this fear is overwhelmingly unfounded.
no it is very well founded
Some people view psychedelics as a short cut to enlightenment.
@@bignoob1790 if so they are deluded
@@bignoob1790 Yes, Sir. Psychedelics are definitely NOT a guarantee for "enlightenment". With the necessary and sufficient preparation, they may provide insight and experiences that cannot be as easily attained from any other legitimate "spiritual practice" and their pedigree is based on thousands of years of testimony. The modern prohibitions have mostly sinister motivations, being insisted upon by ignorant & barbaric legalistic authorities and self-promoting & mind-controlling religious institutions. There are potential problems, which is why the the requirement of careful, thorough, and sincere investigation before using any of those substances is mandatory before any intelligent and prudent participation is attempted.
@@adamborowicz7209 Is your comment based on any personal experience with utilizing any psychedelic? Or do you speak totally by regurgitating the opinions of others whom you have chosen to credit as "authorities"? Without personal experience, you literally do not know of what you speak. You have allowed yourself to be programmed. Shame on you, if that's the case.
As a Catholic, I too was taught that to sin was to miss the mark, and that the mark is God, who is truth, goodness, beauty, and love.
We don’t “punch God” with our sins, we miss Him. This doesn’t hurt God - He doesn’t need us or anything - but as our Creator, He loves us and wants what’s best for us, which is to become what He created us to be. In the Christian tradition, we are created to become like Christ, the Son of God: self-sacrificing, forgiving, truthful, merciful, and filled with humility.
I know my arrows often miss the mark, but I keep trying to perfect my aim.
well, so why do we need all this cruxifiction/attonement thing?
@@adamborowicz7209 On the cross, Christ showed us what perfect humanity looks like with His willing act of perfect humility, dignity, and selfless love.
Then He rose from the grave, proving that this kind of love is the source of life itself. This is how we are saved from Original Sin. This is how we become human beings who are fully alive: we follow the one who knows the way out of the grave.
Rainn Wilson is truly blessed to have such a famous interviewer
The idea that God is an abstract concept like music is very attractive to me. The problem is many people who argue for God's existence do so with the strong implication that God is the stereotypical "bearded man in the sky". That conceptualization is metaphysically absurd and therefore makes the argument open to criticism.
I don't think one negates the other. You could be a small child looking up at an old man who appears to be "in the sky" and that is a God-like figure. Who cares for you and may punish you. Whether or not the Bible says there is a man with a beard in the sky is a non-sequiteur. It doesn't say that. Nobody serious about religion has ever said that.
Is it an easier conceptualization than imagining how other spiritual realms may or may not exist? Perhaps, and that is why the Bible says Jesus is King of Kings and Lord of Lords; it might not be repititious without reason, it might infer there are other realms and other hierarchies than we may be aware of.
And look at this fat bozo admit within the first 20 seconds that he didn't write, nor has even read the book the editor's put his name on. Classic Dwight!!!
I mean, it's essentially panentheism and that's nothing new.
The Santa Claus in the Sky concept is just that but God's existence and the idea being very wrong can and do co-exist. It's truly unfathomable for any human to completely understand God. All that's good in the world is the closest we'll know here. You don't have to believe in God to have some God in your life. Good friends, family, love etc positive, godly vibrations.
Satsang is the spontaneous rap of an enlightened master. One who experiences unconditional love and speaks out of bliss. To be experiencing this, the words do not reach deep into your heart and usher in longing as much as the energy flowing through everyone in the shared love bliss. Now that you have experienced it throughout your body and feelings, you will always crave more satsang. Your heart will feel the love and peace. You can only grow closer to oneness letting go of old limiting thoughts and feelings . See the others experiencing the satsang and they feel so close, their eyes filled with light loving all they see.
Woah, wait what?? Never expected this crossover
I don’t know about you guys, but I’m really feeling god in this Chili’s tonight
Been waiting for a Bahai on this show for ages, would love to see more of these deep conversations from the Bahai perspective.
Hopefully a Bahai can make a claim and defend it with actual evidence. Who knows.
Why? You enjoy wasting your time?
Agree, the Baha’i Faith has some very profound and fresh perspectives and insights. I’d like to see more on the show as well
@@TurinTuramberBaha'u'allah calls God the Spirit of Truth and the First Remembrance. I will answer any questions you would like to ask a Baha'i.
My big issue with his concept of "God" is that it almost abstracts the concept so far that it becomes a different thing entirely... Where it ceases to have the properties that we previously defined it by. When does it stop being the God that we were originally talking about? Is it even a Pantheistic representation at that point? Does it then become just a functional part of the universe as we know it? In which case we are DEFINED by it's existence. If "God is Physics" then what are we actually discussing any more?
His point about the Radiohead gig (I have a similar experience of the brilliance of one of their shows- it's also strikingly similar to a moment of 'Kill Your Friends' by John Niven) is talked about widely in The God Delusion itself- how transcendent experiences don't have to be synonymous with religiosity or the supernatural. I was actually considering writing part of my dissertation on the effect of Music on effectively luring people into an environment and then an ideology. Before recorded music the only place to see it was likely to be the Church. People could easily misappropriate their love and feelings for the music as that of the "God" figure. Similar to the NSDAP's use of Wagner and other music at rallies. To induce feelings that then make people more likely to seek out that experience again. This is, fundamentally, just a beautiful moment that is subjectively framed as representative of whatever he defines this "God" to be. I thought we were seeking to ESCAPE subjective framing in this discussion?
Agreed if God is everything and all that transcends nature as well (panentheism) the word loses its meaning and anything can be justified as “Gods will”
I do wish it could retain its actual meaning of 'make-believe cuz scared'
Yeah, his idea of ‘God’ is so abstract and numinous that it essentially loses all meaning. I don’t think anyone really has the authority to say what ‘God’ should or shouldn’t mean. I like Rainn, but he’s essentially just talking in meaningless aphorisms here.
Do you have more information on the connection between music and ideology? I always found it odd how in some religions, prayer is only recited in song as opposed to just being read aloud.
Regarding Radiohead, I'm also a big fan. Regarding Dawkins on transcendent experiences with great works of art and music. I was in Florence recently and had the opportunity to see Michelangelo's statue of David and was moved to tears by it. I'm an atheist, so there's that, but the work itself was so exceptional that I was emotionally affected by it without any regard for the religious overtones of the piece. Something similar happened to me at the Louvre when viewing the Venus de Milo.
How surprising to learn that Rainn Wilson can actually hold his own in a discussion with Alex O'Connor!! I did not know that he had such depth.
I thought he floundered quite a lot actually. He heard a question and then went ahead and answered a different one.
You should look into him. He is quite interesting.
He's had similar talks about his Baha'i faith on UA-cam that are pretty insightful too!
@@Cindy99765 Not a problem. I actually have a degree of respect for that faith, even though I'm an atheist.
This podcast looks so aesthetically pleasing! Top tier production value
Always the Padawan, never the Jedi.
😂😂😂😂🎉
What are you yapping about 😂
always sounding smart, never being...
@@360.Tapestry...stupid? Yes!That's probably what you meant, right?! That has to be it! 🤷🏻♂️👀
I said a VERRRRRRRRY similar thing at my first *rave* that Rainn said at Radiohead. In 2016, still hanging onto the thought of faith and Christian belief but underneath it was under a lot of turmoil. I had an incredible time at that *rave*, also first experience with MDMA. That experience put me in this really interesting head space that I can only describe as "ego death", which is sort of rare on MDMA. I processed a lot of depression and self-worth issues right on the dance floor. And then that God like feeling came in and it was warm and comfortable. But as I "sat" with it in my mind I started to realize it didn't feel like the Christian God I heard about in the bible. Over the next few years, I wrestled with this until I realized I no longer believed in YHWH in 2018. That feeling I felt was the UNIVERSE and all consciousness all life. Plants, animals, and humans; I could feel it breathing and pulsing with life and love. We are all connected. I don't think we need a "being" at all. The laws of physics, chemistry, and the natural universe are GOD enough to me.
Agreed. God is the whole entire universe and everything in it. We're all a part of it.
This has more spirituality in this podcast than many other places. I really enjoyed your podcasts on Gnosticism. I feel closer to Gnosticism Christianity having been brought up catholic.
Yes. I learned a little Tibetan, and there it makes a grammatical difference whether you have seen something personally or just heard about it. Totally alien to European languages.
10:10 - This section made me think of the when Richard Dawkins rebuffal of Karen Armstrong that Daniel Dennett quoted in his AAI 2009 talk:
"If sophisticated theologians or postmodern relativists think they are rescuing God from the redundancy scrap-heap by downplaying the importance of existence, they should think again. Tell the congregation of a church or mosque that existence is too vulgar an attribute to fasten onto their God, and they will brand you an atheist. They’ll be right."
This is just fucking sophistry, man. You have to call it out.
You are never going to get the masses to admit defeat in a public repentance from religion in a way that erases bigoted fundamentalism from existence. The best you can hope for are the underlying definitions to change while the label remains the same.
Those "sophisticated theologians or postmodern relativists" that are trying to weasel their idol out of the fires of truth are cowards and deserve to be called out, even if they probably won't. However, many of those "postmodern" thinkers are not just proposing a reactionary pivot; they've been trying to advocate for both a substantial pluralism and a more internally consistent theology from day 1 and have been mercilessly vilified because of it. I think some smug satisfaction out to be derived from the fact that these so called heretics, the even bigger targets of Evangelical cancel-culture than the atheists, are now finding a public voice and following.
And what must the atheist worry about? The vague spiritualist make no such absurd moral and epistemological demands to the nonbelievers as the church does. If you're worried about fake news and ill-informed quackery, note that religion has yet to succeed from a siege on the ivory towers of science; sensationalism has yet to overwhelm a tradition of thinkers dedicated to cautious and precise thinking.
This is precisely why I'm an ignostic and not an atheist now. I can't hold a negative position to something that doesn't have a coherent, non-trivial, and non-contradictory basis.
@@jackkrell4238 agnostic*?
I respectfully disagree, but before I write about why I disagree I should first say, as this is probably relevant to the discussion, that I am an agnostic. I should also disclose that I am not a big fan of Richard Dawkins and therefore biased.
I disagree because it is not clear to me how saying God does not exist in the same way a pen exists is sofistry. It is also not clear to me why a congregation of believers should be considered the Golden Standard for Theism.
I mean, I can imagine how this argument could be considered a valid viewpoint, but my critique is that it is not the only, and might not even be the most relevant Theist viewpoint. It seems to me, but this might be my bias kicking in, mostly a strawman argument.
@@marcelfabus5850 How is it a strawman? For something to exist, it must exist somewhere, somewhen, and have actual properties( you know, like a pen.) Also, why exactly are you an agnostic? Give me a coherent, non-trivial, and non-contradictory definition of god and then we can start talking evidence and argumentation.
This video was so insightful, I kept rewinding to take in everything that was spoken. Thank you both!
So glad you had Rain on, this is a way more interesting conversation. So glad that rational spiritual people are being represented.
Yeah way more rational than those silly Christians. If you think Christians are irrational, then you don’t understand Christianity.
"I'm doing religion right and everyone else is doing it wrong" is the only constant across all religious views. This is not a problem with "new atheists" who simply refuse to carry water for liberal religionists by accepting that their view alone is the only valid view of their religion, this is a problem with religion.
There are no Liberal Religionists.
I don't think they were talking about religion.
No, that’s NOT a common view across all religions. Go do more research. And get off your fucking high horse.
How does every video I see of yours manage to be a gold mine.
I'm neither Baha'i nor atheist (I'm catholic), but the stuff about not worshipping our thoughts instead of what they point to is powerful, and I just recently had a realisation about the importance of intuition in understanding what we can't otherwise (also helped me think less and yet accomplish so much more).
Are you Catholic or Christian?
@@Research0digo All Catholics are Christian, but not all Christians are Catholic
@Research0digo Both, I think (Catholic comes from the phrase meaning a general Christian, so, I'd say all Catholics, like myself, are Christians, but not all Christians are Catholics).
Might I suggest reading the original text of the Bible. It is so different in ancient Hebrew or ancient Greek than the modern English versions we have.
@@paulschuckman6604 I'm not really into reading Bible on my own, even if I knew the language, I'd still lack the knowledge of the culture and history of that time, so I'm better off just listening about it on the mass, where the priest picks out different passages and explains them so that we know what connects them, and it takes into account all the little details of the Bible which are relevant for understanding the Bible, but we wouldn't know otherwise.
So, I get it, it's a good idea, but the priests at my local church already got that part covered for me.
4:19 Why is it so funny that three times in rapid succession Alex can't say "Horns" without miming little horns on his head?
I have replayed it several times. The word "horns" now means nothing to me unless accompanied by fingers.
Lol😅
lmao I noticed this too
Almost every video of yours I end up commenting the same thing. From a Christian, thank you for the kind and curious dialog discussing Faith in all of your videos. I learned some great stuff here as I always do.
As much as I appreciate that Alex wants to focus more on investigating religious belief, I have to admit, I miss the old Alex who would call people out on their bullshit.
He only really did that with dinesh desouza.
Ye, I understand seeing others' viewpoint, but he has been very passive for years now. When was the last time Alex said something he believed in? I think the problem is him giving his own opinion might put of guests coming onto the show...
Maybe he doesn’t think it’s bullshit?
As soon as the question was posed about whether God exists in the same way as the pen, I thought “yes!” Jesus was fully human and fully divine. And I loved the analogy of being like flies trapped in the glass - unable to understand the world beyond the glass - life beyond death and God Himself! Thank you for having these thought provoking conversations. They definitely get some minds turning.
Liked how this started with recognition of the limitations of language. Absolutely agree. These limitations inform our philosophies of life.
"Satan is the insistant self." Exactly. And the face of God is what appears when the illusion of self drops. The more self we see, the less God we see, and the more God we see, the less self we see. Amen!
IMO This is pure froth, can you say anything tangible?
@@TurinTuramber What is not tangible about it?
@@bike4aday Everything.
@@TurinTuramber Welp I don't think I can help you there. Good luck.
Well said. There is no better definition of hell than being stuck in the prison of yourself, your own mind and ego, which by the way is closely related to states of depression and anxiety and other mental health conditions.
Heaven could be the joy of service to others, uplifting the world of humanity, and contributing towards the advancement of civilization and society
Everyone saying they're enjoying hearing Rainn Wilson talk to Alex about religion and philosophy, I'm hyped that he's a Radiohead fan.
every sane person I know is a Radiohead fan
I saw them perform A Moon Shaped Pool in New Orleans several years ago and absolutely had that same experience.
@@Wanderingstarlet I'm very jealous, never seen them live, hope I'll get the opportunity to!
I once was blind but now I see. The quotes in this episode remind me of myself when I was wrapped up in new age thought practicing Buddhism and quoting people like Ram Das along side Jesus. It’s a counterfeit…I promise you…don’t be deceived. What I thought was peace was false. I now look back and see it all as a sort of ego trip masked in a false humility that I was a “seeker” of sorts. (Ego trip stemming from thinking you’re enlightened)
Honestly ask God to reveal Himself to you. He will. Jesus is the way the Truth and the the Life. No one comes to the Father except through Him. Sin is real because of the Glory of God. Hell and Satan are real but the deceiver does everything he can to keep you from realizing it. God loves and longs to provide a way for you to be in relationship with Him. It will change your life. Don’t wait.
Seek and you will find. Nice
Friend, consider this: the Buddha wasn’t selling anything, while Jesus was. Which one seems more trustworthy to you?
Now, let’s think about this statement: "It’s a counterfeit…I promise you…don’t be deceived." Why isn’t this just an ego trip? When you say something like that, it can come across as if you’re claiming to be "enlightened" while implying that anyone who thinks differently is a "broken soul."
Even if you might be right, the way it’s phrased doesn’t sit well. Turning your belief into an absolute guarantee can sound condescending. It gives the impression that you’re promising something you don’t actually have control over.
Wouldn’t it be more effective to invite dialogue rather than making definitive declarations?
@@idst7365 I’m not sure what you mean by Jesus was selling. Jesus gave his life and offers life with Him at zero cost. God creating us and then also saving us makes us at extreme debt to Him. Only Jesus pays that debt for us.
Sounds like you're doing it again (ego trip from thinking you're enlightened)
I have been "in conservative religion" for my entire life. The perception of sin as a punch on God is something Ive never heard. Sin is our missing the mark of Gods righteousness. Regardless, the overall point seems right - any chance God knows we cant understand Him in our current state so he gave us His word to help us attempt to grasp who He is? Instead we come up with our own contrary thoughts that we like better and choose to worship those thoughts instead?
The problem is, this "God" is purely imaginary and there's nothing anyone could present to show otherwise. 🤷♂️
@@davidarbogast37Agree. ‘God’ is nothing more than a (very old) idealisation of the ‘perfect’ man, in Christianity literally embodied by Christ. The New Testament is a revision of all the aspects of the Old that no longer fit this ‘perfect’ view, proving that while there may be some philosophical ‘truths’ in the Bible, we can’t really view theology as anything more than a psychological phenomena. What truly interests me are those who cling onto these notions NOW. Anything which I know I will never understand (like quantum physics) is truly fascinating 🤣
God being described as an experience, physics and beauty is interesting and cool. Whatever a god might be, it doesn’t verify that it has the ability to communicate with humans that it is currently alive and able to speak whether ethereal or physical.
7:32 if we just came from animals and survived the environment then that would presumably mean that religion is optional, or even a sort of diversion or detour around our base nature, but this seems to fly in the face of what the guest is saying, and the cultural experiences of most of planet earth.
Some would argue it was religion which elevated us.
I wouldn't but there's a case to be made.
@monty3854 then where did religion come from? Did it evolve from our brain getting bigger? How did the brain get bigger? With religion?
@@EricJacobusOfficial Who knows. I don't.
@@monty3854 it's a logic problem, the same one which faces any ecological theory of hominization. If various component features evolved gradually from the last common ancestor (LCA), then which ones? And why only us? The common view is that it was a migration into a new ecosystem which caused all these attributes to evolve - language (per Deacon), mimesis (per Girard), tool usage (per archeologists in general), kinship (per Freud), religion, living in groups of 150 (Dunbar), cognition, brain growth, bipedalism, thumb opposability, etc. All of these component features have their champions and they're all vying for precedence, some joining alliances as though they developed in tandem through an autocatalytic process. And yet all these component features are always traced, in gradual steps, back to a mythical last common ancestor, the only proof of which is in analogous traits in today's living primates. So the paradox is that we got here gradually, but nobody else has, and nobody remains showing those gradual steps.
Nobody seems to have noticed that there's one single trait which humans have that is absolutely absent in the animal world - reciprocal object-based aggression - which I believe produces a state of combat that is constantly left open, but which also produces the recursive potential that gave rise to all things we consider human. Since this unique human capacity - basically, "violence" - cannot be understood in gradual steps, it is a blind spot to evolutionary scientists. This same always-open state of human combat is the very stuff of word creation, ritual, and kinship; but it's totally foreign to anyone thinking in a gradualistic, bottom-up way.
@EricJacobusOfficial We are not the only species to show reciprocal object-based aggression.
Rainn Wilson's intuitions about God are deep and remind me of some of the greatest Christians theologians, St. Augustine and St. Thomas Aquinas in particular. The "insistent-self" sounds extremely similar to St. Augustine's notion of sin being the "falling in on yourself" and the comment about God not existing in the same way as that pen is on par with some of Aquinas' ideas about God. Very fascinating.
Coming from Bahai family and community the studying and independent investigation of truth is the first principle of the Bahai revelation and writings
Bro I've been having those kind of discussion with myself here in Africa, cause here people are really close minded.
I always though that I was crazy, until I saw people from overseas thinking like me. I really appreciate it.
Thank you, I'm not alone.
I think people don’t like idea of a God that judges, hence the profound God who is only about love
One more indicator of how its all in our heads and we just mold it into what tickles our feels the most.
@@thoughtlesskills what tickles our feels the most, interesting. if you think about chakra (as a concept), the heart chakra is that energy center which connects all things. Is feeling because a lower quality than thinking or its necessary fuel?
@@moflo6093it's nonsense really. A person doesn't need any "god", spirituality or woo to exist peacefully and succeed, those that do are the problem.
Part of the problem is that God is the Spirit of Truth and the Face of Truth. And when confronted with Truth most flee from it.
@paulschuckman6604 yeah that's obviously an unfounded opinion rooted in superstition and mythology, and what's worse is that it's not even your own opinion. It's just an opinion that you've chosen to agree with.
Maybe it’s me personally. But religious debates on UA-cam absolutely made a difference to my life
Never thought about it like that but yeah, changed my life.
I don’t see how it could be that meaningful. It’s all just prattle.
@mjt1517 videos of the greatest minds in the world debating philosophy and it means nothing to you? Bro, read a book.
Great conversation! As s former athiest turned Omnist, I'd love to see more non-traditionally religious folks like this on.
I've heard the term Omnist before, but I couldn't remember the definition and had to search it. I can understand the aspect of wanting to be respectful to all religions... however, some of them have practices that are completely opposite to another one. How would you be able to serve two different gods if they are conflicting?
@@colinpierre3441 From my experience, and from my discussions with others who are similarly-minded... Omnists tend to reconcile beliefs/practices from different religions in a wide variety of ways. It really depends on the individual. We tend to be users of paraconsistent logic and even dialetheism (the philosophical position that it's possible for two contradicting propositions to both be true).
We tend to treat the world's religions in much the same way that Hinduism treats its many different deities and schools: as an "all-you-can-eat-buffet" as opposed to the "fine-dining-menu" which Western religions have been the model for.
Much like how Christianity was a synthesis of Judaism, Neo-Platonism, Greco-roman, roman folklore, and so on... Omnism can be considered a synthesis of all religions, made possible only via the deep interconnectivity of this global era. What has happened before, will happen again (eventually).
@@colinpierre3441 To answer your question though, for me personally -- I don't believe in more than one God. I think most Omnists tend to be monotheistic... but I'd caveat -- much like was discussed in this video: language really deceives folks here... We should try to look beyond it and see what religions may share in common first, before looking for their differences...
For example, most people would classify Hinduism as polytheistic... but it isn't actually polytheistic. It's monotheistic.
At least, it CAN be - when viewed from a particular angle... Brahman is the supreme being which all other deities and all beings are constituents of (us included). Enlightenment era Westerners kind of just looked at Hinduism from the outside, and slapped a label on it -- whilst missing all the rich nuance and depth.
So, to answer your question -- if someone asks me if I believe in multiple "gods"; I will tell them yes - but I still only believe in ONE God whom is one with the Good. That being is ultimately what I 'serve', and other angels/daemons/gods are simply downstream of that.
@@Archeidos-Arcana That was a very detailed explanation, but there is an important factor that can be overlooked... evidence. While there are many religions, not all of them has solid evidence to support them. What if I told you that the Bible is the only religious book that has never failed to have any of it's prophecies fulfilled?
As a christian i have never understood sin as anything else then the absence of connection and to and with God and therefore with the good.
And you shouldn’t. Don’t be misled by this nonsense.
That's not the Christian concept of sin, so you're not a Christian.
and other christians will understand sin differently. There's no definite ultimate answer to what is sin or whether it is even possible to sin, it's all just matter of interpretation and personal beliefs. And it can never be anything but that, because it's an abstract concept. Same as what is justice, what is good and what is evil. Different people will always have different interpretations.
Rainn Wilson sounded like he was about to start a Cthulhu cult for a second there
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn!
Where do I sign up?
Alex need to invite Swami Sarvapriyananda to your podcast. Eastern religions especially Hinduism are the treasure trove of spirituality. All the questions about God has been solved by the Indian spiritual traditions.
I wonder if Rainn realizes how close he came to converting himself to Spinozan near the end…
How is he not already?
What Rainn has shared about his journey through his life and his perspectives on things really makes me wish more people would hear from him
I experience God as the sweet ongoingness of all things. Great interview, can’t wait to watch the whole thing. And a movie… yes, please. 😊
God is whatever you hold in the highest regard. Whatever you place as most important in life, that's your God.
Thanks Jordan, now off you trot and scream into the void about metaphors and myths.
No its just what I like the most. I don't need to label it with a goofy term that most ppl attribute to a deity.
Then "God" seems like a totally meaningless term and I am personally happy never to use this silly word.
That's a definition created purely to say "nobody is an atheist"! I like banging strangers on stimulants more than anything at the moment so that's my god huh? 😑
@@ianbanks3016 Lots of modern theologians have held this view, most notably Paul Tillich in 'the dynamics of faith', where he talks about God as man's 'ultimate concern.' A shame that Peterson doesn't bother credit his influences.
If Satan was once an angel then he's not the source of evil. There's more to the story but nobody cares, easier to blame than look in the mirror or forgive.
This is true, says the Lord is behind evil and good he does all these things, he also sends out evil spirits, makes me wonder where Satan fits into that?
Alex, you have softened (in a good way). Have you been meditating or did some other process occur? Loving this podcast. I’m tiring of polarised point scoring on the internet, so this episode was refreshing. Thanks to both of you.
"Language constrains thought": I disagree. Helen Keller had some significant insight into this. I forget her specific words, but before she learned how to communicate she said she felt as though she acted through feral instinct. It wasn't until she had a language that she could escape her more feral nature. Point being, we are a constrained species; languages give us potential to escape the constraints our more feral nature.
Right, but just because language allows us to transcend our feral nature, it doesn't therefore follow that we can use it to understand the divine.
@retcon1991 language might get us closer to God, if there were such a thing, but it's much like taking a step towards Pluto. It might be momentarily true, but ultimately inconsequential.
@@unonymous So, our thought is still constrained.
I dont understand, doesnt the fact that Hellen Keller described her thought as feral before learning to communicate support that language constrains thought?
Having more language would make it easier to think then, or think more broadly. Its hard to think about ideas we havent even been introduced to. That said, if one defines god as something outside existence, we will forever lack the language to understand it. I'm an atheist so I dont really need to, but it interesting to think about.
Yes...which is why we are also trapped by it. Language liberates us from ignorance but it also limits our freedom to it's borders, just as our place in history and in physical space do. That's what the flies in the bowl metaphor is getting at. Language grants complex thought and allows for the sharing and growth of thoughts. But what those thoughts can be is limited by the tools of the language used. If you speak multiple languages, this idea becomes easier to understand. Certain metaphors, syntax, and expression does shape the way we see the world around us. It encodes our priorities and how our brains take shortcuts. There are concepts that are just easier to understand and talk about in one language that may also struggle with other concepts. What language tools do we not even know we lack because of human limitations? Because of things we haven't discovered yet? Languages are as living as the people who speak them, and just as fallible.
Interesting that you've put your UA-cam plaque above all the deities in the room, very telling
Really excited for this, never expected to see him on this channel
I appreciate even Job's confession, upon finally meeting God. "I had heard of you by the hearing of the ear, but now my eyes have seen you. Therefore I abhor myself in dust and ashes." - he had a concept of who he thought God was. But when God finally revealed Himself, Job realized his concepts were wrong. This is when Job's real relationship with God began.
The shock for Job at the end is to realise that the Yahweh that speaks to him is not governed by principles of justice that can be appealed to (as Job has been trying to do). Rather Yahweh does what ever HE wishes and does not have to reward and punish ON ANY BASIS OF FAIRNESS. This is the reality that appears to be the case in everyday life. The Hebrew for Job’s last words can better be translated ‘
As “and I tremble for dust and ashes” I.e. “I am scared for the consequences for human beings who are only dust and ashes.”
@craigfairweather3401 if this is true, then Christianity premise of an all loving god is totally collapsed. And Job's unconditional loyalty to god despite its violence turn to a methaphor of embracing patriarchy and facism for the sake of it.
And that's obviously just a story 🤷♂️
Consider this, on the matter of God being purely good, and there being a potential for eternal punishment. Suppose you have a bit of enviousness in you. If you see someone or something that is the utter model of perfect goodness, your envy will make you wish you could be like that to the point you will implode under the weight of your own envy. Yet that model of pure goodness will wish you no harm, even to the point of wanting to take your envy out of you, if only you will allow this. You will suffer for your envy, but the model of perfect goodness will only wish you well, and your suffering would be the result of your own flaw which you refuse to give up. This is something like God being the utter model of perfect goodness, thus sending Jesus to remove our flaws if we're willing, and those who refuse suffering forever.
Thank you for this! I LOVEE Rainn Wilson!!
It does change everything this shattered my reality
this is crazy, Alex has gone to a whole new level with this one!!! Dwight!!!!
Hi Alex, in your conversations about God and religion it would be great to see some prominent western Muslim scholars and intellectuals apear on your channel.
A few that I would recommend:
1. Timothy John Winter, also known as Abdal Hakim Murad,
2. Haza Yusuf (born Mark Hanson)
3. Omar Suleiman
4. Dr Shadee Elmasry
5. Abdelrahman Murphy
6. Nouman Ali Khan
Is there any concept of God thats coherent, evidence based, and useful?
No
Jesus
Throwing my two cents making a pseudo objective definition:
The archetype resulting from anthrophizing the universe as experienced psychologically.
This is short enough to be coherent.
Evidence of that would be research papers showing how the god-image tends to be similar to the experience of early parenting.
Also, seeing the evolution of individuals and cultures ' beliefs about the nature of God and its reflection on their life.
@@haydenbueckert3056 no
No. It is a combination of our hangups, wishful thinking, and unwarranted extrapolations.
from Rainn Wilson I learned: "whenever I'm about to do something, I think, “Would an idiot do that?” And if they would, I do not do that thing."
I still might. Evidently I have not yet achieved EnDwightenment.
Baha'i Faith mentioned!!!🔥🔥🔥 What even is an argument between science and religion??❓⁉️👑🦅🦅🦅🦅
About what rainn said about sin meaning to
miss the mark in Greek, that is because of a mistranslation from Hebrew, like what Alex said about the word "karen". In Hebrew the word sin comes from the word clean or pure, as the sin is something that is to be cleaned. The same word also means to miss a target and therefore it was mistranselated in Greek.
*Glorious Qur'an*
41:43
مَّا يُقَالُ لَكَ إِلَّا مَا قَدْ قِيلَ لِلرُّسُلِ مِن قَبْلِكَ ۚ إِنَّ رَبَّكَ لَذُو مَغْفِرَةٍۢ وَذُو عِقَابٍ أَلِيمٍۢ ٤٣
Nothing is said to you, [O Muḥammad], except what was already said to the messengers before you. Indeed, your Lord is a possessor of forgiveness and a possessor of painful penalty.
*2:136*
Say, O believers, “We believe in *Allah* and what has been revealed to us; and what was revealed to Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob, and his descendants; and what was given to Moses, Jesus, and other prophets from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them. And to *Allah* we all submit.”
Michelangelo was correct, it is true that "karen" is evil and horny. And she wants to talk with the manager.
Seriously, Alex is too smart. I'm a person with average intelligence, I cannot comprehend his mind. I've been a Christian for some many years now, I'm 100% sure of my savior, the true and living King. But I love watching his videos.
Cannot wait for this full episode!
Bears. Beets. Battlestar Galactica.
Intrigued, but don't understand what you're trying to say. Explain please.
@stevesmith4901 it's very subtle. You wouldn't understand.
Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery
@@amirguri1335 Curses! You know my weakness--Subtlety.
Identity theft is not a joke, Jim! Millions of families suffer every year! Michael!
2:39 - we are but flies within a glass, ignorant and oblivious of the "beyond, the beyond." And yet, we have a god "concept" equipped on our intellectual toolbelts. Doesn't quite jive, I'm afraid. Occam's solution here is the far more likely one; that man created god, not the other way around.
man has a concept of god which is not actually god
@psalas98 so you have the correct concept? Cool.
@@Bluebloods7 There isn't one
@@psalas98 man you're so woke, teach me to be woke like you, and how to like my own comments?
@@Bluebloods7 productive 👍
This was refreshing and thought-provoking
Gord is Good
Dr. Dringus
Praise Gord! Holy Djengus 🙏Holy Vajonus 🙏
Who's Gord?
@@GordonGarveyevidently you are!
@wayneandrews1022 🥰
3:55 but are you aiming for the mark is the question.
We get to choose our own mark.
@@eric8841 Unfortunately not. Suffering has a cause and we can't change that.
Yeah Rainn, Alex’s new approach of bringing on guests who paint the idea of God as so dynamic and fluid and unknowable so that any critique of Christianity can be hand-waved as simply a failure of language is brilliant!
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How?..
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also paid
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