Rappel systems with built in rescue solutions
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- Опубліковано 3 тра 2022
- THIS IS VIDEO 2 OF 10 - See textbook 👉 www.hownot2.com/post/canyon-r...
Here is a free course featuring Brent Roth about different ways to set up rappels through a canyon. This considers ease of rigging, abrasion, ease of rescue and how efficient it is to move people through the canyon.
Episodes 1-5 show the systems,
Episode 6 shows how it can all be done with 1 device,
Episodes 7-8 are friction tests,
Episodes 9-10 are break tests of the hardware and the knot blocks.
All the episodes are in the textbook
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Single rope STATIC system
01:45 - Carabiner Block - Clove hitch
05:39 - Carabiner Block - Stone Knot
07:01 - Carabiner Block - Figure 8
09:04 - Fiddle Stick
13:53 - Benefits of this system
16:50 - Single rope RELEASABLE system
20:05 - EMO - Eight Mule Overhand
23:03 - Importance of unlinked anchors
24:46 - MMO - Munter Mule Overhand
28:18 - Problem Solving
TEXTBOOK: www.hownot2.com/post/canyon-rope-systems & Check out our canyon designs on www.hownot2swag.com
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Don’t mean to keep commenting (although maybe it helps the algorithm more?) but I just finished the video. I gotta say, I appreciate your security in allowing us to see you NOT being the expert. The times you were asking questions or slightly confused, it helped me a ton. Way to let your guest and an awesome expert shine!
Thanks. I think the banter helps keep in interesting and having an expert and a newb helps balance out how to share the info.
I watched this video the day it came out. Today I was able to ‘self rescue’ on a double pitch where the first repeller took my ATC and theirs by accident. I used the knot block at 7:00 to secure a single static line and used a munter hitch + VTprussik to descend. This video saved me time and stopped me from wasting resources. I wasn’t afraid of this technique because y’all simulated the rappel line so clearly. Thank you. You da man for putting the valuable content out there. The next gear purchase is from extreme gear.
5:50
I've always heard that called a marlin spike hitch. First class amateur has an amazing video on the topic called "The ONLY knot you need to know."
Great knot channel in general
Yes, this is the same as a marlin spike hitch with a carabiner. This is classically called a stone (Stein) knot in the canyon community.
Got to say that's a really nice climbing wall, doesn't look out of place in a house from the looks of the wide shots
Thanks! When I proposed to build it, my wife had one condition - "It better look good" 😂
Now I have to finish the rest of the house. Ryan and I should do a HowNOT2 remodel. 🤣
I have seriously been waiting to watch this all day. Not disappointed
I worked with the Scouts USA as a climbing instructor for a while.
We always rigged Muntner mule overhand (forgive my spelling) releasable repels. We'd put a closed but not screwed locking carabiner around the bite of overhand and the down side of the rope.
I never had to use it myself, but we practiced like the devil and usually ended up popping and training on one about every trip.
With the same group we did some stuff with the US Army Rangers. We learned their rope bridge technique.
The far side uses a tensionless anchor, and the near side used essentially a Z drag and finished off with a Muntner Mule overhand.
Incredible content, I learn something new every time I watch your channel, it's one of the single best resources I've seen.
Peace and love friends ✌🏻
Fantastic series. Thank you for bringing it to us.
It's pretty cool that this video exist. I don't think I will ever use the information but if I were to I would probably need hours of practice before trying it with my life on the line.
I spent weeks last year studying a lot of this stuff. I wish this video would have been around back then. Such quality work! Great job, guys.
@10:15, the concern can be addressed by stick design (4 holes vs 2 ovals), or by using what you have currently: In either case, clip a carabiner through the holes on each side of the stick and through the strands of rope going around your anchor. All but the last person down are protected from the stick coming out due to it pushing up against something, or any other reason. Having said that, you obviously want to rig it in such a way where it's not contacting anything. One of the reasons the holes are larger ovals in that design is so that there is room for both the pull cord and the safety carabiners.
Thanks for this Ryan and Brent.
I'm beginning to watch this video.
The second knot used (the one you'd use with a fiddlestick) is essentially a marlinespike hitch, but with a carabiner instead of a marlinespike.
I'm enjoying these series, learning a lot, and laughing frequently. Thank you!
Great! Love to watch your canyoning videos, looking forward to more of this 👌
Can't wait for a HowKNOTT2 video
Masterclass. Thank you
Very useful. Thanks
Thanks!
needs more of Brent's cat :)
Good info. I've been canyonning (occaisionally - I'm a caver really) for 30 years and still learned some stuff. We call a 'Munter hitch' an 'Italian hitch' and I have no idea what a mule hitch is called here.
great video!
If you're going to use a clove hitch on a carabiner. Try making a triple clove. That way if one loop slides off the spine of the carabiner you still have a legit clove on the spine.
Nice! Do you have specs on the retrieval line? Straight up amsteel or some blended cord?
smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B073X4ZVQZ/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&th=1
yeah the second hitch is a truckers hitch, i use it quite alot
Awesome video. Just putting it out there. Back in ye olden times we use to block the munter with 2 half hitches instead of the mule over hand. Personally I think its neater, just as easy to tie. Just as easy to release and still pops with minimal drop. So other than not having a catchy 3 Letter Acronym what's the main down side of a Munter double half hitch compared to the Munter Mule Overhand?
've been playing around (at home) combining a fiddlestick/smooth operator with a contingency aspect for rescue....basically I don't want to contribute to the deep grooves cut in UT sandstone but I want to have rescue capabilities....it has resulted in the "rescue" requiring removal of the fiddlestick while weighted. I can pull it out with a 200lb victim free-hanging, but like you've said, it's not easy lol. Once removed, the victim's weight is transferred to a totem/pivot for lowering. It'd be interesting to quantify the force it would take to remove a weighted fiddlestick.
Wondering what the canyoning community would think of it, or if this is just impractical. Like any other advanced anchor, incorrect rigging would be catastrophic.
Through your experimentation, you arrived to what you are correctly describing as a rescue maneuver, and not the desired objective: Contingency rigging
There is a streamlined rescue process to "convert tails-up to lower"
But,
If what you are looking for is to retain contingency you need to "rig contingency, like an MMO" and the last person rigs the toggle-stick or other toggle technique depending on if your are using the whole rope, or a portion/half of it.
I use this method exactly for the purpose you are describing: Contingency for the whole group, but the last person AND prevent rope grooves - Given the fact lots of areas in UT have natural-far-back-low anchors that result in grooves....or horribly positioned bolt stations that result in the same sad result: Grooves
Hope this helps - Cheers!
More info here:
canyonguidesinternational.org/retrievable-rigging/
That is a test I want to do. How much force it takes to pull a toggle out? I have been focusing on other rigging options that support rescue and ghosting, but there is always a cost.
“I can’t you’re on a static system……. NOOOOOOO” 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
Difrent continents difrent styles but i am from The island of Madeira and a certified canyoning guide from ICA (international canyoning academy) and i do canyoning prety much everyday because over here we have the Winter canyoning season and summer season because we have in Madeira more than 130 canyonins on a 70km island so we can work everyday, and in my opinion, you should had put the munter or the eight blocker directly on the rings.
First master carabiner In one of the rings then QuickDraw from the master to the other Ring as a backup. You clip your lanayard to the master and also you can add another carabiner and do a munter hitch without Passing on the rings of course as a second line if you already have one line with the eight blocker Passing trough the rings and you can do the Backup of the eight blocker like you did with the QuickDraw or a sinlge carabiner on the carabiner that is already passing trough the ring on the side of the eight blocker
And that way you have to releasable systems in two difrent ropes.
Going down you put yorself first into the rope of the eight blocker and block your descender. Remove the munter pack the rope into the Bag remove the carabiner that you did the munter remove the QuickDraw remove your carabiner from the lanyard and the master carabiner and to make it safer with the eight blocker you pass the carabiner in the small hole of the eight and the rope coming from the bag passing inside the carabiner só its hard for the rope to unblock by itself.
There is also other releasable system you can prepare using the figure eight that is easier to lower the first person só you can set the rope lengh and safer. Also very importante when lowering a person always two hand on the rope not leting it slide but passing it one over the other.
Ive found a lot of people inside Madeiras canyonins from all around the world using really bad techniques and some i had to rescue so systems should always build dorectly on the rings releasable and as clean as possible to avoid people doing mistakes.
I appriceate your perspective as a canyon guide on these systems. Guides really do understand the importance of Efficency and Rescue in systems. Using a master carabiner is great anchor management.
If I follow you correctly you discribed a Twin Compound Relesable system (video coming soon). There are so many ways to build and use these systems. This is why I like this approach of putting the systems into categories. It was easier for me to understand the capabilities and limitations of any rigging system no matted how it is built.
Sorry if this is a stupid question!
At 28:23, why have you built the block on that side?
Doesn't that mean the last person now has to descend on the "bag" strand, then pull the bag strand (long strand) through?
If the block was on the other ring, the last guy descends on the same strand as everyone else, then pulls this (short) strand through - and also now in the correct sense wrt the previous-made point, about direction of pull.
Ayyyy
I'm assuming you're carrying the fiddle stick string with you along with the rope. How do you keep the string from being pulled on the way down?
Its wrapped to free spool and the tail is clipped inside its carry bag. The amount of force it takes to yank the stick is much higher than what it takes to run that line.
Hello ! Can you test abrasion on slack snap machine ? Or Weird rope angle on a rock in the middle of the machine ?
Question, can you make the non releasable fiddlestick anchor at 12:00 with a carabiner through the back 4 strands safely? It seems like a cool way to tie a top rope anchor that’s easier to untie than a figure 8 on a bight. I know this isn’t a rock climbing video, but I was curious
Like this but with all 4 strands instead of 2? ua-cam.com/video/pbevEaRUmMk/v-deo.html This is one of the knot videos in the textbook
Check this out as well... ua-cam.com/video/tyZuRkwkzqk/v-deo.html
@@HowNOT2 yes! I feel like using that knot, but doubled up to create a loop like he does at 12:00 would be better than a figure 8 on a bight clipped into the master point of my anchor, simply because after top rope soloing or having buddies rappel, it would be so much easier to untie.
For your safety forget the fiddlestick it should be used in a really last resort thing but for that you also have the macrame knot and others…
Do you not differentiate between knots and hitches?
Is that a knife on your left side?
Yup, Edelrid Canyoning Knive. I would not recommend it. If you press it too hard into the rope before moving the Knive to cut it blocks. I love Edelrid but the Knive is S****. I'd recommend the Bear claw Knive.
@@marinuspeterhansl1176 Interesting, I’ll didn’t know they had one. I have a Petzl Spatha but I like how his is mounted. Thanks for the tip though!
Is it normal in the canyon community to be so aware of abrasion and rescue options, or ist Brent a Guide that has to be aware of these things?
Rescue is especially important in Canyoning. If you don't rescue your partners yourself the Mountain/Waterrescue only will be doing a bodyretrieval. Imagine, if you get blocked while rappelling in mountaineering, well your stuck for an Period of X. If you get stuck in an waterfall, doesn't matter how good you are after 10 Minutes you are pretty f***ed...
What Marinus said! Also, most rescue groups may not have the niche skills to go down certain canyons (or efficiently) and approaching them from the side is not always an option either.... assuming they knew exactly where you were.
31:17 There it is...."I need to practice that." If you're going to use some of these systems they become a proprietary thing that we have to practice regularly. Cognitive offloading into systems we use for other systems and that can be adapted into other situations may be advantageous.
Day 2 of asking for a picture of Ryan wearing his "canyon corset"
😂
yeah I wouldn't trust the fiddlestick, give a knot with a closed biner through it.
Fiddle stick can be super good enough ua-cam.com/video/ka4fouUPaSg/v-deo.html and is the best way to not have to pull your rope around something like a tree afterwards. But if that isn't the case, I'd use a biner block and pull it down like "normal" over a fiddle stick.
Releasable bowline
Hey Brent, what’s with the elastic waist band on your Croll? - can be problematic
That is what I use has a "chest harness" to keep my Croll upright. It is strong enough to keep my Croll up but weak enough to break if it gets caught on something. When I use the Croll I put the cord over one shoulder to keep it tesioned. Easy move to make with only one hand. If you need a Croll in canyoning, something has gone wrong. 😂
the difference in ways of knotting around the world is funny. You say our way of knotting the figure 8 has it downsides. But they learn us that your way has more downsides. The way you knot the figure 8 with the emo, they tell us that if you load it the mo can turn in the 8 and it is imposible to belay. The downside of the other knot can only happen with a special kind of anker and we have learned a different knot to go around that problem.
Here in Europe it is still a wild west of technice. the France people teach their guides different than the Italian. The Spain is different again. And so all country's have a different technice. I cant wait for the time that there is 1 technice for the whole world. Because that makes it more easy to guido all around instead of only in the countries that you get your degrees in.
"Super easy if you know what you're doing just like rocket science" ........
*no reaction*
...
*surprised pikachu face*
Thanks!