Down. Andy Kirkpatrick "02 - Two-point Rule A climber must always have two connections when rappelling: their descender and a back-up. This means if the primary point of connection fails, you don’t die. I consider this an iron law, others don’t, but they’re stupid."
I am a volunteer for Search and Rescue and the funny thing is that I suck at climbing but I am really comfortable and good at rappelling (because that’s how we get you when you are hurt or stuck). So I would add some safety tips: 1. Always have a knot at the end of the rope 2. Use an additional stopper when you have to go hands free. Like a cordage or Vt Prusik 3. I know it looks much cooler to stand while going over the edge, but this is where you easily wipe out. Get on your butt or lie on your stomach and slide over the edge. 4. Practice rappelling as you practice climbing And then it is a lot of fun ! Thanks for posting these videos. I learn a lot from you guys.
Backup prusik is mandatory in my book. You might feint due to exhaustion or dehydration, rock hits you in the head, you trip, etc. And you're not dead. Worth the 1$ lol😂
That was the really hard way to put the rope in the "saddle bag." It is usually a lot easier to flake the rope back and forth across your tether, and then put the sling around it and transfer that to your harness.
Ideally there would be use of a prussic backup in the demonstrations. Not great to normalise rappelling without a backup. Great video apart from that! Love Andy Kirkpatrick's book.
I was really confused in the beginning until I realized that in english the munter (?) knot is not called like the carabiner... In German the knot is called Halbmastwurf ancronym HMS.... A prusik Backup would have been great also on an HMS rapell
For the non-Germans, HMS = HalbMastWurfSicherung in German (capital letters added). If you remove "Halb" meaning half, you have three words that translate to "mast" (like on a yacht), "throw" and "safety". So to tie a yacht to a bollard for instance, what do you use? A clove-hitch. Or in German a Mastwurfsicherung. Half of that (i.e. turn one of the clove-hitch's loops back around) is what we know of as a munter hitch. So the little "H" in a circle stamped on pear-shaped carabiners indicates that the shape of that carabiner is suitable for use with a munter hitch. Quite literal are those Germans
How not to tie a carabiner block...the block you guys did is a knot block. The carabiner in that system is just a safety backup. One thing to be careful on a knock block is the knot can jam in the rappel ring and get stuck. A carabiner block is a clove hitch tied on the spine of the carabiner and the carabiner is blocked at the rappel ring (quick link). Sorry about being picking on your block. Signed, Mediocre Canyoneering Guy
Yep. Not a biner block. Also, I wouldn’t put a biner block on that size of quicklink. I don’t know if it was just the close-up angle of the camera, but that looks like a big quick link. Somebody died in Zion when they’re biner pulled through one of those big quick links. I’d replace it with a smaller one before using a block.
Something I've noticed about the super munter hitch, is that (in my experience) it can be awkward to tie depending on which way your munter hitch is facing in relationship to the gate of the carabiner especially when the rope is rigged for rappelling. You may have to flip the knot to tie the super munter hitch to avoid the strands getting tangled. I suggest messing around with tying it a handful of times in every orientation you can think of. Also if I'm wrong on this, someone please correct me.
totally agree. Also beware of having the strand going towards the ground rubbing on the lock of the carabine, as this can unscrew a carabine (ofc. the carabine being screwable :) ) this problem is also solved by turning the knot. luckily, the best knot-direction is the one that is also easiest to "upgrade" to a super munter.
crazy caver/canyoner here... Munters are a great skill to know, just like prussics: minimal gear to do a thing. They are also heavily used in cave rescue for lower/belay lines because they are easy to control and can switch from lower to haul (progress capture) quickly just by flipping the knot. More things to know: as mentioned they work best with HMS carabiners, the hitch can actually get wedged if the nose of the carabiner is too narrow or angled wrong as some D's are; and its best to use a steel one if you have it, the rope will eat aluminum, especially fast if its dirty caving rope. For biner blocks: canyoners do this on almost every rap, and have learned a few things. Its better to block directly to the carabiner as a knot is soft and can actually pull itself into the rap ring/anchor. This has caused fatal accidents where the mallion on the anchor point was large enough for an un-backed-up knot to slip through (the vid shows a way to prevent this failure by clipping the biner back to the rope). Canyoners typically rig "contingency blocks" using a double-rigged figure 8 + carabiner clipped to the tail, allowing a quick adjustment of line length or lowering of a person on the line, while maintaining control through the figure 8 (unlock it, lower/raise, lock it again). Not as useful for climbing, but worth knowing. What might be more useful is the direct biner block: tie a clove hitch on the spine of the carabiner (after making sure the carabiner can't fit through the maillion/rap ring/anchor whatever (this has caused at least 1 accident)) and pull it up against said anchor. Tie your pull line to the end of the tail (usually with a double fishermans): uses much less rope than a big knot, and is much less likely to get stuck. For pull-down raps, its also the practice of canyoners to let everyone down on a more fail-proof or contingency tie-off, then convert to a more streamlined one for the last to make pulling easier (ie: contingency block for all, then convert to biner block for the last person). The leg tie-off... is that normal for climbers? If your munter starts to slip, I see this could pull your leg up to your tie-in, putting you in an awkward position. Cavers tie-off the munter with a half-hitch on a bite to the rope directly above it, followed by an overhand or another couple half-hitches. Keeps the tie-off visible, and in line with everything else, and maintains tension on the brake line (brake is UP with a munter) while untying it.
What kind of locking mechanism do you like for your steel HMS biners when using them for this sort of thing? Screw lock, twist auto lock, or some sort of 3-stage auto lock?
Sorry to hear that..In the military we do climb some, but 95% of our rope work is rappeling...I'm more comfortable with that then climbing...Take that extra few minutes to double check your gear before rappeling. We mostly used the 8 style rappeling loops. Today with the Grigri and what not, should start lowering the percentages of accidents. I love devices that lock if you happen to go hands free.
@@Jokl92 Yeah I think that is the most common accident percentage wise...Eyelet ropes are a good way to prevent that, and also should be one of the first items on you gear check list before you step off.
Fun content as always. Re Biner Block, there are two scenarios where you are more likely to use/need it than the case you describe where you need to create a full rope length string of gear. First, the biner block allows you to rappel on a belay device that only takes one rope (e.g. Gri Gri). Second, you may encounter a rappel that is 5-10 meters too long for a double rope rappel, perhaps because you accidentally found yourself on (or chose to do) a route with rap stations bolted for a 70m rope but you only have a 60m. Creating a 10m string of gear is much more feasible than stringing together 60m!
Munter hitch should have enough friction to brake in any direction. You don’t necessarily have to pull upwards with your brake hand. You should even be able to use a Prusik as third hand (backup).
Remember to make your Prusik short. It is devastating if you need your backup doing its job and then you cannot reach up to loosen the Prusik for further repelling ;)
Indeed, it should break in any holding direction, as the rope will pinch itself regardless and the break strength will barely vary without practical implications, according to German Alpine Association DAV; Article: DAV Panorama 3/2005, page 83; "Safety Research". They also mention in the article that the OeAV Austrian Alpine Club, teaches the hands down method, cause the student will learn the same hand positions regardless of the device. On the opposite DAV taught hands-up, cause it minimizes the risk of the rope unclipping itself ("a risk" with hands down) and less rope twist as already mentioned here. So a twist-lock resolves the first problem and rope twisting was never really an issue for me (it is sometimes with my megajul).
@@flyingdoctor99 that here is a good reason to learn footlocking. You can step up on a rope using only your feet and turn a "devastating" mistake into a simply irritating one. I'm a tree worker, not a rock climber, and I watch these videos for the gear testing and to get a different perspective on rope work. I learn a bunch of stuff, but sometimes I have to wonder how rock climbers manage to even stay alive without some of the rope access/descent techniques we take for granted in tree work.
Maybe you could clip it to the master point to check it (proceeds to unclip his safety, only being held on by the hitch that he is about to check, re attach just to check the hitch originally holding him). Not an ideal instructional video
Favorite hack of 10yrs of canyoneering. Beaner on leg loop of harness with standard rapel device. Suprise 70lb of extra wet gear no problem! Just take the rope and clip it into the Beaner and pull up! Extra friction! Great for 300' free air raps. Second best tip. If its pitch black. And you're still 200' up and you're spinning in pitch balck at midnight coming out of heaps. Lift your other leg to stop the spin. And last bit of advice. If someone offers your buddy is offered use of a dry bag for the extra rope. Make sure they say yes!!!! 80l bag in and out of full potholes for 22hrs a lot of work. And the absolute last bit of advice. Don't brag about heaps at the back country desk. Glad the noobs made it out alive after 3 days.
calling complete bullshit on 60m of quick draws and shoelaces sorry (although unless you happened to have 120 quickdraws and 15 pairs of shoes with you.
Good stuff boys! Could be a little cleaner when the first presentation was in only one bolt vs the anchor master point, and only one strand in the girth vs a shelf. Besides the testing and adequate strength, it’s all about considering the best, safest way. Good vidz!! Love this book! Another awesome rappel vid would be using a couple lockers or a few non lockers.
Instead of making just knot at the end of rope, it is way better to do knotted loop at the end and clip it to the saddle. Probability that you will forget to make a knot will be significantly lowered if you make this habit (and double-check before start of rappeling). And also it will automatically make first loop in your saddle loop bag if you will need to make one.
For the reepschnur rappel, lower your first climber so you know you have just enough single line to get down or to your next anchor. Then you don’t have to use so much hodge podge of material for your pull cord. Just to extend it the last little bit.
Great work. Andy K is a leg-end on this side of the pond (and world). great to the community spreading world wide. this is a community and the reason it's called HowNOT2 is to share info and bring together, not teach or tell, keep it up.
Yay! You showed a Rappel Test! Testing your device before you unclip from an anchor saves lives. Just make sure that if you unload your descender, it needs to be Rappel Tested again. Unloaded descenders are notorious for causing problems. It's also a good time to do a mental check-check (touch) biner locks, buckles, helmet, gear your forgot, etc.
Also don't be afraid to think outside of the box: "00" If you carry two or more bail biners (mallions/quick links), you can grab a pair "00" and use them like a stitch plate to rappel as well, just keep the turn buckles facing out so the carabiner is pressing against their spines.... it works, I've done it. & it's super easy!... but of course: user discretion is advised !!!
Great video! Andy Kirkpatrick is great, when you need advice on down to earth stuff he's been there and done that. Odd I belayed and rappelled with a Munster (Italian hitch) on single and doubled up 10mm ropes for years when in mountains and never needed to hold my hand up on rappel You should also warn about leaving a knot in end rope when pulling it through, I retrieved a rope for someone a couple of weeks ago when they got it stuck like that
The biner block has saved my bacon when I dropped my ATC once. Did still have my Grigri, that combo worked great. Did practice it with a munter right after that experience 😅 Haven’t practiced with a super munter yet so that’s on the list now! Great video guys!!!
I’ve never heard of having to have your hand up to be in break mode in a munter and I’ve never had an issue with treating a regular munter like an atc when rappelling or top rope belaying. I’d love to see some pull tests with a third hand in different directions! I work I’m a gym and learn new stuff all the time and practice and do random things a lot, and I probably rappel on a munter every other week for the last few months and I’ve never had an issue before 🤷♂️
Super great video! Tips were clear and concise. Of course there is more detail in each scenario that can be gotten into, but for brevity this was perfect. To anyone wanting to learn more, please buy the book and hire a guide for teaching. The cost of a lesson is definitely worth you're life.
For saddleloops, use the rope itself as the saddle. Tie a figure-8 in the end of the rope (this is also your stopper knot), tie another figure-8 on a bight about 2 feet above that one. Then flake the rope across those two points. To make it faster, you can also flake the rope over your shoulders and then move it. Put a carabiner through both figure-8's and clip to your harness. Saves you a sling and ensures you have stopper knots in the end of your rope. For a two-strand rappel, I do one saddleloop for each strand. One on my left side and one on my right. Also, be VERY VERY VERY careful with the biner block. It's one of those tricks that if you do it wrong, you WILL fall to your certain death. I teach technical skills and self-rescue, and it's one of those things that I won't teach someone unless I know their technical competence well and trust them.
We used the dufflersitz for the first 10 years of my climbing. We replaced it with the Munter in the 70's. Let me tell you, a duffler over an overhang is a scary thing.
Glad I seen your munter video but 12 hours late. I was up a tree and realized I did not have rappel device with me.. Now I am up and only have 2 ascenders ..1 Jumar and , 1 ascender rope grabs so to get down I had to ascend with one and move the second ascender down and repeat......after 1/2 hour I finally made it down that 20 feet ,lol thought I was going to have to live in that tree.
Technically what you showed was not a biner block but a knot block... The knot is blocking its way through the rapide In canyoneering repelling we usually use an Alpine butterfly or figure eight on a bite to accomplish this... A biner block is a clove hitch on a biner.. so as to stop the carabiner from going through the rapide and tightening the rope on the same object (carabiner)
For one's I will stick with "how not 2" and will not lose my rappeling device... And always add security with the brake : Prussik, machar,... If you get distracted, you slip or catch a rock... you DIE
Love your other videos, brushing up on my skills... but that anchor you're using doesn't look very redundant... Is that not needed when rappelling because it's static loading?
With the Munter, would throwing the working length of rope over your shoulder, and then keeping your belay arm down (below waist/ belay system) work? It probably makes more sense to use the opposite shoulder so you don't have to worry about it rolling off all the time there's a little slack in the system. Right hand controlling belay? Rope down from anchor, to your locking biner on your harness, Munter hitch, back up over left shoulder, across back to right hip & hand. In my head, this seems so much safer - but I was cringing watching him descend on that with his hands above his belay point. Pinched fingers, pinched hand skin, no friction backup, no forgiveness if you slip.
don't quite understand the advantage of moving your break hand above the munter? You add more friction so could argue its easier to control... but the position is awkward, and as pointed out in the video, you're having to hold up the weight of potentially 70m of rope the entire way down. Why not just act like the munter is just an ATC and follow all other procedure. Move the munter away from you using a sling, dynema, or PAS then attach prusik to break rope and lower? Seems like a much less complicated and easier to understand method. Simplicity and ease of use saves lives in this case.
The complacency of doing this without a backup is probably what makes experienced people get hurt. Adding a friction hitch would have taken no time and it would have made the advice even better.
OK, I got a confession. You ever do something and regret decision you made in moment? Did a 5 pitch pyramid du tacul alpine climb (like 5.8) in chamonix. Less experienced partner *lied* to me when I asked have you done multipitch climbing. Later confessed he thought I'd refuse to climb with him if I'd known. Using UK style double ropes. (adds complexity to munter). Regardless, I drilled the munter hitch and several knots with him for rapelling at the base of the climb as I knew less experienced. Plus descent protocol, prussiks/autoblocs and anchors. 5 pitches, bliss. Descent was four consecutive vertical face bolt anchor to bolt anchor abseils. One rope length in.. I'm going first and finding and tying off next anchor. Off rope and safe. Ping ping ping... partners ATC is dropped. I have *spare* ATC, but on my harness. Partner shouts down... Pete.. Pete... how do you do that Munter Hitch thingy you told me.... Facepalm. Here, I should have ascended on prussiks. Regret to this day I didn't. (nothing bad happened, don't panic). Described Munter again. But i tied off the rope *tight* verbally checked he had prussik back up AND munter hitch. Verbally confirmed munter was holding his weight. He descended, had it right, all fine. But sod it, I wasn't sure and should have tried to ascend the rope and deliver the spare ATC. Lucked out. Didn't want it on my conscience, and I risked that.
In this situation I already install the partner in rappel mode and I check everything. When he's ready I just install my rappel below him and rappel first. When I arrive at next anchor all he has to do is untie and rappel down without having to set anything up.
@@PhilippeVaucher Good idea. As I said... It's a confession and I'm not proud. Should have done better. But still annoyed that I was lied to about experience level...
@@ambrose13 yeah. should have. was worrying about partner finding the next belay if I hadn't already brought the ropes down, but he would only need to haul one tail, not both.
Ok ok peep this: I’m doing a Biner block without any cord? I just tie a rock to the biner so I can thread the rope up and let it gravity down (Inb4 it will get stuck but cool idea I guess)
But if u tie your rope to the End of your extentional quickdraws and stuff with whom you want to put the rope down then you also cant rappel down the whole 70 meters cant you? You have a loop then that is just so much longer then your extensions. Or am i missing something?
If you ever see people rappelling buck naked you know they didn't bring enough skinny cord and needed those last few inches of cordage to pull down their rope.
4:45 in the munter, you can incorporate a prusik above it on the rope to attach a carabiner to introduce an extra friction point to hold that rope above the knot and aid you if the rope is heavy, and just squeeze/compress the tail against the lead to adjust the butterfly downward as you go if youre working with a very heavy loaded rope *(not tested, just a theory)
you really think that rappel without any sort of backup (third hand) should be endorsed?.. you let go of rope - you die even if you dont have anything to extend your rappel, prusik can be tied above the device, as you showed in some prev videos. Or clipped into leg loop. Both far from optimal, but still something
@@HowNOT2 given the super munter locks down (not up), adds more friction, and is barely any more rope than the regular munter hitch, why not ALWAYS tie a super and then add a prussik/klemheist/autoblock on an extended rappel? What's the value of a simpler hitch with no viable backup? (Serious question, not snark.)
Good idea! only if it's the last rappel to the ground (or how are you gonna catch the backpack?) and the abseil is at least vertical and nothing that could be blocking or jamming the backpack
I like how rappelling is last resort, but I can’t think of a single walk-off here in Saxon sandstone. One always has to rappel, but thankfully there are always big fat abseil anchors.
if you read ANAC, rappelling like 30% of accidents, it's not as inherently dangerous as the rumors make it sound - accidents are more common on the way up. That said, it is the most common thing that is pure human error and usually fatal - meaning it should be practiced more. Andy's book is super great, love it.
when rappelling on munter (aka demi-cabestan - european naming) relying on hands for braking it is a harder thing (especially on cold weather or rain). It's better to unravel the down-rope around your hips to use the body friction before the hand or better to use a prusik for best friction and possibly an auto-block-ish. Thanks for the book, I didn't knew it. Very good one!
Like your channel. A few thoughts: 1. Could mention in the future that a single krab gets hotter than a krab and atc, so abseil slowly. And maybe try to keep some weight on your legs if you can to reduce load and thereby heat. Can also use two krab methods to dissipate heat. 2. For safety use a prussic in a compatible configuration with this method. 3. Are you sure a handful of quickdraws and slings reaches 60 metres? Could also mention rope slings have an advantage over webbing in that the core can be removed from the sheath to get long boot laces. And the sheath itself could be unpicked, but you would have to be bloody desperate. 4. Flaking should be done with rope on ledge if the purpose is to prevent the rope getting jammed when hanging down. You can do it in the same position, but have the other climber feed it to you. Hope helps.
A tip for the Munter...If you wrap one more time around the spine of the carabiner, you can control it behind your back like a normal rap and have more friction..If you have more weight and need even more friction, just keep adding wraps until it feels comfortable.
Long time lurker, first time poster: Tree climber here, and retrievable lines are essential. If I had almost no gear and needed to make multiple repels I would climb double-rope with a blakes hitch, clip in to the next anchor, untie, pull through previous anchor, and rethread through next anchor point until at the ground. Tell me that isn't better than looking for shoelaces and linking your quick-draws for a retrieval line.
Love the vt prusik to back up my rappel, and Alpine atc...weigh 225 prob closer to 260 when loaded out, the vt keeps me stopped with 3wraps on 8mm rope. Can also rappel with just the vt in a rescue weighted line scenario...awesome piece of kit. Also it's above my device so no chance of minding itself
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not dying is something i intend to do thanks for the suggestion
Well, I was planning on dying and now I can't, so I'm a bit miffed right now, frankly.
Down. Andy Kirkpatrick
"02 - Two-point Rule A climber must always have two connections when rappelling: their descender and a back-up. This means if the primary point of connection fails, you don’t die. I consider this an iron law, others don’t, but they’re stupid."
I am a volunteer for Search and Rescue and the funny thing is that I suck at climbing but I am really comfortable and good at rappelling (because that’s how we get you when you are hurt or stuck).
So I would add some safety tips:
1. Always have a knot at the end of the rope
2. Use an additional stopper when you have to go hands free. Like a cordage or Vt Prusik
3. I know it looks much cooler to stand while going over the edge, but this is where you easily wipe out. Get on your butt or lie on your stomach and slide over the edge.
4. Practice rappelling as you practice climbing
And then it is a lot of fun !
Thanks for posting these videos. I learn a lot from you guys.
It is probably unnecessary but I always make a prusik and attach it to myself. Like you never know what happens and you might need both hands.
Backup prusik is mandatory in my book. You might feint due to exhaustion or dehydration, rock hits you in the head, you trip, etc. And you're not dead. Worth the 1$ lol😂
Yes! Thank you for this. So much easier to slide into it even if it doesn't look as cool.
I use my prussik to block the rap while I retrieve my trad gear on single pitch route. Super usefull.@@mignonhagemeijer3726
That was the really hard way to put the rope in the "saddle bag." It is usually a lot easier to flake the rope back and forth across your tether, and then put the sling around it and transfer that to your harness.
Ideally there would be use of a prussic backup in the demonstrations. Not great to normalise rappelling without a backup. Great video apart from that! Love Andy Kirkpatrick's book.
I was really confused in the beginning until I realized that in english the munter (?) knot is not called like the carabiner... In German the knot is called Halbmastwurf ancronym HMS....
A prusik Backup would have been great also on an HMS rapell
It’s an Italian hitch in English and a Munter in American
For the non-Germans, HMS = HalbMastWurfSicherung in German (capital letters added). If you remove "Halb" meaning half, you have three words that translate to "mast" (like on a yacht), "throw" and "safety". So to tie a yacht to a bollard for instance, what do you use? A clove-hitch. Or in German a Mastwurfsicherung. Half of that (i.e. turn one of the clove-hitch's loops back around) is what we know of as a munter hitch. So the little "H" in a circle stamped on pear-shaped carabiners indicates that the shape of that carabiner is suitable for use with a munter hitch. Quite literal are those Germans
How not to tie a carabiner block...the block you guys did is a knot block. The carabiner in that system is just a safety backup. One thing to be careful on a knock block is the knot can jam in the rappel ring and get stuck. A carabiner block is a clove hitch tied on the spine of the carabiner and the carabiner is blocked at the rappel ring (quick link). Sorry about being picking on your block.
Signed,
Mediocre Canyoneering Guy
Thank you for saying something. I was thinking the same thing
Yep. Not a biner block. Also, I wouldn’t put a biner block on that size of quicklink. I don’t know if it was just the close-up angle of the camera, but that looks like a big quick link. Somebody died in Zion when they’re biner pulled through one of those big quick links. I’d replace it with a smaller one before using a block.
@@TeachingwithPower yep...for sure! Tie a biner block on the biggest carabiner on your harness. Black Diamond Rock Locks are great for that.
Absolutely correct, a big difference from a beamer block vs knot block
Something I've noticed about the super munter hitch, is that (in my experience) it can be awkward to tie depending on which way your munter hitch is facing in relationship to the gate of the carabiner especially when the rope is rigged for rappelling. You may have to flip the knot to tie the super munter hitch to avoid the strands getting tangled. I suggest messing around with tying it a handful of times in every orientation you can think of.
Also if I'm wrong on this, someone please correct me.
same thing. You can tie it "in the air" and than clip the biner in. Not very hard with a bit of practice
totally agree. Also beware of having the strand going towards the ground rubbing on the lock of the carabine, as this can unscrew a carabine (ofc. the carabine being screwable :) ) this problem is also solved by turning the knot. luckily, the best knot-direction is the one that is also easiest to "upgrade" to a super munter.
crazy caver/canyoner here... Munters are a great skill to know, just like prussics: minimal gear to do a thing. They are also heavily used in cave rescue for lower/belay lines because they are easy to control and can switch from lower to haul (progress capture) quickly just by flipping the knot. More things to know: as mentioned they work best with HMS carabiners, the hitch can actually get wedged if the nose of the carabiner is too narrow or angled wrong as some D's are; and its best to use a steel one if you have it, the rope will eat aluminum, especially fast if its dirty caving rope.
For biner blocks: canyoners do this on almost every rap, and have learned a few things. Its better to block directly to the carabiner as a knot is soft and can actually pull itself into the rap ring/anchor. This has caused fatal accidents where the mallion on the anchor point was large enough for an un-backed-up knot to slip through (the vid shows a way to prevent this failure by clipping the biner back to the rope). Canyoners typically rig "contingency blocks" using a double-rigged figure 8 + carabiner clipped to the tail, allowing a quick adjustment of line length or lowering of a person on the line, while maintaining control through the figure 8 (unlock it, lower/raise, lock it again). Not as useful for climbing, but worth knowing. What might be more useful is the direct biner block: tie a clove hitch on the spine of the carabiner (after making sure the carabiner can't fit through the maillion/rap ring/anchor whatever (this has caused at least 1 accident)) and pull it up against said anchor. Tie your pull line to the end of the tail (usually with a double fishermans): uses much less rope than a big knot, and is much less likely to get stuck. For pull-down raps, its also the practice of canyoners to let everyone down on a more fail-proof or contingency tie-off, then convert to a more streamlined one for the last to make pulling easier (ie: contingency block for all, then convert to biner block for the last person).
The leg tie-off... is that normal for climbers? If your munter starts to slip, I see this could pull your leg up to your tie-in, putting you in an awkward position. Cavers tie-off the munter with a half-hitch on a bite to the rope directly above it, followed by an overhand or another couple half-hitches. Keeps the tie-off visible, and in line with everything else, and maintains tension on the brake line (brake is UP with a munter) while untying it.
What kind of locking mechanism do you like for your steel HMS biners when using them for this sort of thing? Screw lock, twist auto lock, or some sort of 3-stage auto lock?
Agreed about the dangers only climbing friend who's died in an accident was an absailing accident
Sorry for your loss.
Sorry to hear that. Do you know what exactly happened?
Sorry to hear that..In the military we do climb some, but 95% of our rope work is rappeling...I'm more comfortable with that then climbing...Take that extra few minutes to double check your gear before rappeling. We mostly used the 8 style rappeling loops. Today with the Grigri and what not, should start lowering the percentages of accidents. I love devices that lock if you happen to go hands free.
@@50StichesSteel Thr last accident I read about happened because the guy didn't tie an endknot, so a grigri wont help...
@@Jokl92 Yeah I think that is the most common accident percentage wise...Eyelet ropes are a good way to prevent that, and also should be one of the first items on you gear check list before you step off.
Kirkpatrick's books are amazing sources of knowledge
Fun content as always. Re Biner Block, there are two scenarios where you are more likely to use/need it than the case you describe where you need to create a full rope length string of gear. First, the biner block allows you to rappel on a belay device that only takes one rope (e.g. Gri Gri). Second, you may encounter a rappel that is 5-10 meters too long for a double rope rappel, perhaps because you accidentally found yourself on (or chose to do) a route with rap stations bolted for a 70m rope but you only have a 60m. Creating a 10m string of gear is much more feasible than stringing together 60m!
Munter hitch should have enough friction to brake in any direction. You don’t necessarily have to pull upwards with your brake hand. You should even be able to use a Prusik as third hand (backup).
Remember to make your Prusik short. It is devastating if you need your backup doing its job and then you cannot reach up to loosen the Prusik for further repelling ;)
Yeah but if the strands are not parallel (pull upwards), then you get a crazy amount of rope twist (unless you use the super munter).
Indeed, it should break in any holding direction, as the rope will pinch itself regardless and the break strength will barely vary without practical implications, according to German Alpine Association DAV; Article: DAV Panorama 3/2005, page 83; "Safety Research". They also mention in the article that the OeAV Austrian Alpine Club, teaches the hands down method, cause the student will learn the same hand positions regardless of the device. On the opposite DAV taught hands-up, cause it minimizes the risk of the rope unclipping itself ("a risk" with hands down) and less rope twist as already mentioned here. So a twist-lock resolves the first problem and rope twisting was never really an issue for me (it is sometimes with my megajul).
@@flyingdoctor99 that here is a good reason to learn footlocking. You can step up on a rope using only your feet and turn a "devastating" mistake into a simply irritating one.
I'm a tree worker, not a rock climber, and I watch these videos for the gear testing and to get a different perspective on rope work. I learn a bunch of stuff, but sometimes I have to wonder how rock climbers manage to even stay alive without some of the rope access/descent techniques we take for granted in tree work.
@@francois-xavierdessureault8039 brilliant solution, and an easy one, too. ;)
Maybe you could clip it to the master point to check it (proceeds to unclip his safety, only being held on by the hitch that he is about to check, re attach just to check the hitch originally holding him). Not an ideal instructional video
Favorite hack of 10yrs of canyoneering. Beaner on leg loop of harness with standard rapel device. Suprise 70lb of extra wet gear no problem! Just take the rope and clip it into the Beaner and pull up! Extra friction! Great for 300' free air raps. Second best tip. If its pitch black. And you're still 200' up and you're spinning in pitch balck at midnight coming out of heaps. Lift your other leg to stop the spin. And last bit of advice. If someone offers your buddy is offered use of a dry bag for the extra rope. Make sure they say yes!!!! 80l bag in and out of full potholes for 22hrs a lot of work. And the absolute last bit of advice. Don't brag about heaps at the back country desk. Glad the noobs made it out alive after 3 days.
2nd comment!
I do love that book. There are few techniques in there used often in canyoning.
Thanks. I didn’t know about the super munter.
calling complete bullshit on 60m of quick draws and shoelaces sorry (although unless you happened to have 120 quickdraws and 15 pairs of shoes with you.
Good stuff boys! Could be a little cleaner when the first presentation was in only one bolt vs the anchor master point, and only one strand in the girth vs a shelf. Besides the testing and adequate strength, it’s all about considering the best, safest way.
Good vidz!! Love this book! Another awesome rappel vid would be using a couple lockers or a few non lockers.
FIRST LIKE!!!
Arrrgh! :D
Instead of making just knot at the end of rope, it is way better to do knotted loop at the end and clip it to the saddle. Probability that you will forget to make a knot will be significantly lowered if you make this habit (and double-check before start of rappeling). And also it will automatically make first loop in your saddle loop bag if you will need to make one.
For the reepschnur rappel, lower your first climber so you know you have just enough single line to get down or to your next anchor. Then you don’t have to use so much hodge podge of material for your pull cord. Just to extend it the last little bit.
Great work. Andy K is a leg-end on this side of the pond (and world). great to the community spreading world wide. this is a community and the reason it's called HowNOT2 is to share info and bring together, not teach or tell, keep it up.
Yay! You showed a Rappel Test! Testing your device before you unclip from an anchor saves lives. Just make sure that if you unload your descender, it needs to be Rappel Tested again. Unloaded descenders are notorious for causing problems. It's also a good time to do a mental check-check (touch) biner locks, buckles, helmet, gear your forgot, etc.
to me this video is a collection of skills you should know but pray you never have to use!
Also don't be afraid to think outside of the box: "00"
If you carry two or more bail biners (mallions/quick links), you can grab a pair "00" and use them like a stitch plate to rappel as well, just keep the turn buckles facing out so the carabiner is pressing against their spines.... it works, I've done it. & it's super easy!... but of course: user discretion is advised !!!
Great video!
Andy Kirkpatrick is great, when you need advice on down to earth stuff he's been there and done that.
Odd I belayed and rappelled with a Munster (Italian hitch) on single and doubled up 10mm ropes for years when in mountains and never needed to hold my hand up on rappel
You should also warn about leaving a knot in end rope when pulling it through, I retrieved a rope for someone a couple of weeks ago when they got it stuck like that
The biner block has saved my bacon when I dropped my ATC once. Did still have my Grigri, that combo worked great. Did practice it with a munter right after that experience 😅
Haven’t practiced with a super munter yet so that’s on the list now!
Great video guys!!!
I’ve never heard of having to have your hand up to be in break mode in a munter and I’ve never had an issue with treating a regular munter like an atc when rappelling or top rope belaying. I’d love to see some pull tests with a third hand in different directions! I work I’m a gym and learn new stuff all the time and practice and do random things a lot, and I probably rappel on a munter every other week for the last few months and I’ve never had an issue before 🤷♂️
To help manage the loose rope especially when windy or near trees, clip the far end back to you. This is quick and easy. Another Andy K tip.
Super great video!
Tips were clear and concise. Of course there is more detail in each scenario that can be gotten into, but for brevity this was perfect.
To anyone wanting to learn more, please buy the book and hire a guide for teaching. The cost of a lesson is definitely worth you're life.
For saddleloops, use the rope itself as the saddle. Tie a figure-8 in the end of the rope (this is also your stopper knot), tie another figure-8 on a bight about 2 feet above that one. Then flake the rope across those two points. To make it faster, you can also flake the rope over your shoulders and then move it. Put a carabiner through both figure-8's and clip to your harness. Saves you a sling and ensures you have stopper knots in the end of your rope. For a two-strand rappel, I do one saddleloop for each strand. One on my left side and one on my right.
Also, be VERY VERY VERY careful with the biner block. It's one of those tricks that if you do it wrong, you WILL fall to your certain death. I teach technical skills and self-rescue, and it's one of those things that I won't teach someone unless I know their technical competence well and trust them.
On the super munter really need to watch how you do it with where the gate is.
We used the dufflersitz for the first 10 years of my climbing. We replaced it with the Munter in the 70's. Let me tell you, a duffler over an overhang is a scary thing.
tell us more....
*Dülfersitz in case anyone wants to look it up
Glad I seen your munter video but 12 hours late. I was up a tree and realized I did not have rappel device with me.. Now I am up and only have 2 ascenders ..1 Jumar and , 1 ascender rope grabs so to get down I had to ascend with one and move the second ascender down and repeat......after 1/2 hour I finally made it down that 20 feet ,lol thought I was going to have to live in that tree.
Technically what you showed was not a biner block but a knot block... The knot is blocking its way through the rapide
In canyoneering repelling we usually use an Alpine butterfly or figure eight on a bite to accomplish this...
A biner block is a clove hitch on a biner.. so as to stop the carabiner from going through the rapide and tightening the rope on the same object (carabiner)
Love the vid. Thanks guys!
Just as they were dragging the quickdraws across the rock and I was cringing, they say, "that's super good for your QD's" 🤣🤣🤣
For one's I will stick with "how not 2" and will not lose my rappeling device...
And always add security with the brake : Prussik, machar,...
If you get distracted, you slip or catch a rock... you DIE
I tried rappelling with one line with a rescue 8...burnt my hands. What did I do wrong???. 7/16dia rope.
Love your other videos, brushing up on my skills... but that anchor you're using doesn't look very redundant... Is that not needed when rappelling because it's static loading?
With the Munter, would throwing the working length of rope over your shoulder, and then keeping your belay arm down (below waist/ belay system) work? It probably makes more sense to use the opposite shoulder so you don't have to worry about it rolling off all the time there's a little slack in the system. Right hand controlling belay? Rope down from anchor, to your locking biner on your harness, Munter hitch, back up over left shoulder, across back to right hip & hand.
In my head, this seems so much safer - but I was cringing watching him descend on that with his hands above his belay point. Pinched fingers, pinched hand skin, no friction backup, no forgiveness if you slip.
don't quite understand the advantage of moving your break hand above the munter? You add more friction so could argue its easier to control... but the position is awkward, and as pointed out in the video, you're having to hold up the weight of potentially 70m of rope the entire way down.
Why not just act like the munter is just an ATC and follow all other procedure. Move the munter away from you using a sling, dynema, or PAS then attach prusik to break rope and lower? Seems like a much less complicated and easier to understand method. Simplicity and ease of use saves lives in this case.
The complacency of doing this without a backup is probably what makes experienced people get hurt. Adding a friction hitch would have taken no time and it would have made the advice even better.
OK, I got a confession. You ever do something and regret decision you made in moment?
Did a 5 pitch pyramid du tacul alpine climb (like 5.8) in chamonix.
Less experienced partner *lied* to me when I asked have you done multipitch climbing.
Later confessed he thought I'd refuse to climb with him if I'd known.
Using UK style double ropes. (adds complexity to munter).
Regardless, I drilled the munter hitch and several knots with him for rapelling at the base of the climb as I knew less experienced.
Plus descent protocol, prussiks/autoblocs and anchors.
5 pitches, bliss. Descent was four consecutive vertical face bolt anchor to bolt anchor abseils.
One rope length in.. I'm going first and finding and tying off next anchor. Off rope and safe.
Ping ping ping... partners ATC is dropped. I have *spare* ATC, but on my harness. Partner shouts down...
Pete.. Pete... how do you do that Munter Hitch thingy you told me....
Facepalm.
Here, I should have ascended on prussiks. Regret to this day I didn't. (nothing bad happened, don't panic).
Described Munter again.
But i tied off the rope *tight* verbally checked he had prussik back up AND munter hitch. Verbally confirmed munter was holding
his weight.
He descended, had it right, all fine.
But sod it, I wasn't sure and should have tried to ascend the rope and deliver the spare ATC.
Lucked out. Didn't want it on my conscience, and I risked that.
In this situation I already install the partner in rappel mode and I check everything. When he's ready I just install my rappel below him and rappel first. When I arrive at next anchor all he has to do is untie and rappel down without having to set anything up.
@@PhilippeVaucher
Good idea. As I said... It's a confession and I'm not proud. Should have done better.
But still annoyed that I was lied to about experience level...
Tie the spare Atc to the rope tail and partner can carefully haul it up.
@@ambrose13 yeah. should have. was worrying about partner finding the next belay if I hadn't already brought the ropes down, but he would only need to haul one tail, not both.
abseiling with the munter can be executed exaclty the same way like with an atc ....(break strake down) doesnt make any diffrences...try it ;)
Ok ok peep this: I’m doing a Biner block without any cord? I just tie a rock to the biner so I can thread the rope up and let it gravity down
(Inb4 it will get stuck but cool idea I guess)
I’m gonna teach you guys how to rappel with my ATC … (3 ms later) Rope! Lol.. true story, things happen..
But if u tie your rope to the End of your extentional quickdraws and stuff with whom you want to put the rope down then you also cant rappel down the whole 70 meters cant you? You have a loop then that is just so much longer then your extensions. Or am i missing something?
The multer rappel sounds extremely sketchy.
I would definitely add a prusik in all of these as a backup.
As a German it will be forever funny to me that at 3:50 he calls it a hms carabiner but calls the hms (HalbMastwurfSicherung) a Munter hitch
Could also do a carabiner wrap on your pear. Less friction, so would need gloves to protect the hands. Or
When I rappel with tube device I use a cord just long enough to wrap 2 ropes and connect to my leg loop.
Can go no hands pretty easy.
If you ever see people rappelling buck naked you know they didn't bring enough skinny cord and needed those last few inches of cordage to pull down their rope.
Great video! Can you guys do a follow up with the equivocation hitch?
4:45 in the munter, you can incorporate a prusik above it on the rope to attach a carabiner to introduce an extra friction point to hold that rope above the knot and aid you if the rope is heavy, and just squeeze/compress the tail against the lead to adjust the butterfly downward as you go if youre working with a very heavy loaded rope *(not tested, just a theory)
you really think that rappel without any sort of backup (third hand) should be endorsed?.. you let go of rope - you die
even if you dont have anything to extend your rappel, prusik can be tied above the device, as you showed in some prev videos. Or clipped into leg loop. Both far from optimal, but still something
My thought exactly. Otherwise great skills to keep fresh in your mind
maybe the next video is about "how not to use the prusik...."
How do you third hand a munter if the brake strand has to be up? I can't endorse extending a rappel that you have to lift the rope up for friction.
@@HowNOT2 not ideal, but you can put your prusick on the weighted line above the munter.
@@HowNOT2 given the super munter locks down (not up), adds more friction, and is barely any more rope than the regular munter hitch, why not ALWAYS tie a super and then add a prussik/klemheist/autoblock on an extended rappel? What's the value of a simpler hitch with no viable backup? (Serious question, not snark.)
How you did it with the Canyon Jump in the Intro? There was no Rope etc how you survived That?
best book ever for dont shit in your pants when go down especially when shits happen...
Should/could you have a backup (prusik) with the Munter hitch?
I never understood how the super Munter stops the rope from twisting. The second pass twists the rope in the same direction.
Thanks to you guys for these resources!
When I’m hanging from a rope I really don’t want to hack anything.
I just wanna know what happend to the guy in the intro who jumped off the mountain.
What PAS is Mike using? I like how low profile it is
Instead of a super long chain, couldn't you just counterweight to line with a backpack?
Good idea! only if it's the last rappel to the ground (or how are you gonna catch the backpack?) and the abseil is at least vertical and nothing that could be blocking or jamming the backpack
How not to rappel without backup prussik!
I read an accident report long ago about biner-block fail because only used the knot (binerless biner-block)
Knot block?
How do you autoblock the munter???
I repel over hiking down, any day!
Bobby for president!!
might want to add a prusic to that
I like how rappelling is last resort, but I can’t think of a single walk-off here in Saxon sandstone. One always has to rappel, but thankfully there are always big fat abseil anchors.
Thanks for the Saddle bag info Bobby. End of rope first... I think that's the reason i always have problems with saddle bags
I've definitely done the "T-shirts, backpacks, shoelaces" pull strand. Plus a full trad rack 😭
if you read ANAC, rappelling like 30% of accidents, it's not as inherently dangerous as the rumors make it sound - accidents are more common on the way up. That said, it is the most common thing that is pure human error and usually fatal - meaning it should be practiced more.
Andy's book is super great, love it.
when rappelling on munter (aka demi-cabestan - european naming) relying on hands for braking it is a harder thing (especially on cold weather or rain). It's better to unravel the down-rope around your hips to use the body friction before the hand or better to use a prusik for best friction and possibly an auto-block-ish. Thanks for the book, I didn't knew it. Very good one!
Why don't you just climb down that ladder of gear u just made. DUH
Yea... A Bobby Video :)
This video is awesome. Read Andy’s book and this is a really helpful visual. Thanks for making it.
Practice makes perfect pushing that like button 💪👏
I do single rope raps with grigri but have used the ATC many times but the grigri is my fav. way
Like your channel. A few thoughts:
1. Could mention in the future that a single krab gets hotter than a krab and atc, so abseil slowly. And maybe try to keep some weight on your legs if you can to reduce load and thereby heat. Can also use two krab methods to dissipate heat.
2. For safety use a prussic in a compatible configuration with this method.
3. Are you sure a handful of quickdraws and slings reaches 60 metres? Could also mention rope slings have an advantage over webbing in that the core can be removed from the sheath to get long boot laces. And the sheath itself could be unpicked, but you would have to be bloody desperate.
4. Flaking should be done with rope on ledge if the purpose is to prevent the rope getting jammed when hanging down. You can do it in the same position, but have the other climber feed it to you.
Hope helps.
nice vieo, thanks
why dont you guys use extended rappels, or at least use a third hand?
I’ve got a copy of that book! All of Andy’s work is fantastic.
A tip for the Munter...If you wrap one more time around the spine of the carabiner, you can control it behind your back like a normal rap and have more friction..If you have more weight and need even more friction, just keep adding wraps until it feels comfortable.
Bought on your recommendation-great resource guide.
Just make sure to remove your stopper knot before pull the rope through the biner block.
Thanks guys!
Skeeeeeeeny cord
Great video
Condom suit
That rope retrival line was really interesting but I have no idea how you did it
Great video as always guys! Practibolts are a good way to practise at home!
Long time lurker, first time poster: Tree climber here, and retrievable lines are essential. If I had almost no gear and needed to make multiple repels I would climb double-rope with a blakes hitch, clip in to the next anchor, untie, pull through previous anchor, and rethread through next anchor point until at the ground. Tell me that isn't better than looking for shoelaces and linking your quick-draws for a retrieval line.
The scenario is that you have one 60m rope and need to get down 60m until the next anchor. How would you do that with a blakes hitch?
You guys rocks, thank for the videos .
Love the vt prusik to back up my rappel, and Alpine atc...weigh 225 prob closer to 260 when loaded out, the vt keeps me stopped with 3wraps on 8mm rope. Can also rappel with just the vt in a rescue weighted line scenario...awesome piece of kit. Also it's above my device so no chance of minding itself
By saved my life once. Best $20 spent.