You can use this as a bend like @theropeaccesschannel shows, just make sure your tails are long enough. See his video at ua-cam.com/video/tRrIUybUyd0/v-deo.html
Regular watcher of TRAC, think I came across your via there, more interested in Rope Access these days but do bits of climbing years ago, knotwork; one of those skills that never leaves you and surprises you how often you use it outside of your main reason for using it (climbing, rope access etc). I think I came across RopeLab from here though, can't recall exactly. Keep up the great work.
I stumbled upon a knot where you make a simple loop and make yet another loop 90° offset and 180° flipped inside that loop. This would result in 2 interconnected loops with 1 pass outside and 2 inside. Another variation is 2 double loops interconnected in the same way 2 passes outside, 3 inside. I'm curious if this already exists, how strong it is and how it's called
@HowNOT2 I’m sure someone has guessed already. But that’s Prusik Peak on The Temple in The Enchantments on the Alpine Lakes Wilderness. Absolutely my favorite place in the world.
@HowNOT2 What if we take the end loop and wrap it around and through the "hole" loop one more time? It will be same knot but with *four* ropes hugged in the center loop instead of two. This theoretically might increase its strength because of a bigger bend radius as well as reduce the chance of it coming undone (not in Dyneema).
I don't rock climb, but you have the most educational videos out there. I can learn so much, yet still not know so much. You do a great job explaining things and I hope you continue to put effort into your channel. I might actually start climbing because you guys make it look so fun and interesting.
I was actually taught that the butterfly can be used to reduce shock loads on static ropes due to its tendency to slip on high loads. I would be so curious to see how it performs in that role!
@@ohokcool Though no doubt any of the non-Alpine Butterflys could legitimately be called "false" by someone aiming for an Alpine, the False Butterfly mentioned in ACT is the one at ~19:30 with the twist-and-twist-back tying method giving non-interlocked sides, but both wings on the same side.
Great video!!! One comment, we use the Alpine Butterfly in fire service rescue all the time. We also tell our members, never wrap a rope around your hand. So we teach a different method of tying this knot. Keep up the great work!
The fastest way to tie it is wrapping around your hand though. Your fingers are just as likely to get munted if you have something tighten while you are doing the twist method especially when threading through. Maybe you have a different one but I know that most of our Fire and Emergency (FENZ) use the twist method but firemen usually know F.A about ropes as they are not climbers first and foremost.
The easier way to tie the double alpine butterfly is the hybrid method. Just add an extra wrap around the hand. ua-cam.com/video/DYGdvL9-P30/v-deo.html
I don't understand the need for either of the 2 complicated methods they showed. You can do the standard method of wrapping 3 times around your hand, but do it with both strands, and you'll end up with the same double-loop butterfly knot.
As one of those pedantic "knot guys," I appreciate this deep dive in the Phallic Knot. I look forward to more knot tests *cough* left handed sheet bend *cough*
One of my favorite knots for sharing loads on anchor points due to the multi directional capabilities, temporarily isolating rope damage always adding an overhand as explained on min 13:21, attaching stuff etc… it is a fantastic knot, Also many different ways to tie it ( be aware of the fake one ),as any other knot and rope related stuff it will be safe if done it right. Thank you guys again for sharing such an educational content, what a great channel.
Not sure if I should share this, but I was literally wiping my ass when you said "right after you're done wiping". For a second I was afraid I was in a Black Mirror episode.
I've actually been using the "Wrong" alpine butterfly(like at 19:30) on purpose when I set up Lead Rope Solo anchors. Has a SS quick link in the loop, so it will never pull through. The "wrong version" is quicker to adjust for equalizing the anchor, and is even easier to untie if I take a whipper on it. If anything, the little slip is a little softer catch.
Really grateful to see the results of the last variation you tied 'incorrectly' so to speak. In the UK, I know that as a cavers knot. I often use both to link anchors together, using the alpine if they are relatively close or the cavers if there is more distance between. I would tie the cavers as a slip knot locked off with a half hitch over the eye. 🤷♂️ Love you vids, thanks for knowledge share. Happy New Year.
As a long-time UK/alpine caver (my 40th anniversary of playing around on ropes is coming up in December) , virtually every caver I know who rigs ties the true Alpine. I have only personally experienced one person choosing to tie the non-interlocked-wings #3 as a regular rigging knot, and he was a somewhat newbie rigger I once took on a practice rigging trip. Once, and never again. He rigged using #3 tied in two stages (a single overhand with a loop, and another single overhand to finish), which he claimed *was* an Alpine, was faster to tie, and was easier to fine-tune knot-anchor lengths with than other ways of tying it, and which he'd been taught by some supposed instructor(*) he seemed to have some kind of hero worship thing going on with. Politely demonstrating to him that he was wrong on all three of his claims didn't seem to affect his misplaced hero worship in the least. To be fair, his knot might have not been meaningfully worse in terms of absolute strength, but it just *looked* really wrong under the not uncommon meaningful 3-way loading, and hanging your entire weight off knots that look wrong isn't many people's idea of fun. (*Note: this isn't instructor-bashing - some of my friends are great caving instructors, but whoever *that* guy was, I have to wonder what his history was.)
@@davewilson4493 That's an interesting statement Dave, that you haven't seen it in all those years. I was shown it by several CIC's and a British Mountain Guide when I was in the industry full time. Shame you only saw fit to take the person once for rigging practice, rather than choosing to put in some development time. Though I understand there could be other factors involved, some people you just have feelings about and those aren't the ones you want to rely on when people lives are at stake. As for your opinion of his three claims, you're right it is not an Alpine Butterfly. However, I would argue that it is super adjustable especially if the anchor is a metre plus away from the equalisation point. That said, rigging a traverse line why wouldn't you use and Alpine. I was just pleased to know that the 'Cavers Knot' as I know it was Super Good Enough 😊
I think the main benefit to some knots is being easy to check. As i see it, the only reason we use the figure 8 for tying in is that you can dress it nice and it's easy even for beginners to check (and easy to untie if i can remember which side for the loaded strand). Tons of other knots are super good enough. Personally, I found it really hard to tell the difference between the butterfly mistakes. But seeing how the "wrong" butterflies are still strong makes me less scared (though I'll definitely do an overhand backup on a core shot now) I need to look through and see if you've tested the wrong ways of tying a bowline as that's the one knot i've actually argued with someone about which was the "right" knot.
Bowline (out-in) and cowboy bowline (in-out) are both valid and have similar strength (and are both acceptable in marine purposes. There are different ways to lock each. Cowboy bowline is better at resisting ring loading.
I did the knot exactly as you describe at 3:42 in the video and compared it with the right/wrong version at 19:48 and it doesn't look like any of them! On checking, the image you have at 19:48 is a mirror image of reality - only when the image is mirrored back again does the knot look like the one with the tick. I'm surprised nobody has noticed this.
This is a great video but, for the love of God, why not show a pull test on the double butterfly? That is one of the most used knots for retrievable anchors and load share systems in Rope access. These are considered two independent knots in one and used in a two rope system. It is widely used throughout the industry, yet I have never seen conclusive testing on it. Help us HowNOT2! You're our only hope!!
Is there an advantage to using the butterfly to separate the two strands as you did in 24:20 when compared to a clove hitch on the masterpoint carabiner? I couldn't think of any advantages that the butterfly could have.
I need some help getting the follow through knot tied, I always end up with the wings on opposite sides. In the video at 17:14 the resulting knot looks like example #1 where the wings are on opposite sides, am I interpreting it wrong?
I figured it out! After the working end of the rope is threaded through the overhand knot, it can go behind the loop two ways: it can go "inwards", across over the elbow of the overhand and around the loop OR it can "outwards", away from the elbow of the overhand and around the loop. If you go inwards and then wrap around the loop, you end up with a proper alpine knot (#2). If you go "outwards" and wrap around the loop you get the "wrong" butterfly with the wings on opposite sides (#1). I'm pretty confident the example knot Ryan ties is not the "correct" alpine butterfly as the working end is wrapped around the loop "outwards" and the wings appear to be on the opposite sides. Side note: instead of looking at the wings of the completed knot, I find it easier to look at the ends. If you pull each end of the rope in the opposite direction, are both ends on the same side of their respective wing? If so, it's a correct knot. If one end is in front of it's loop and the other end is behind, then it's wrong.
@@byronc7571 The way I think of it is an overhand knot, interlocking with an 'underhand' knot. So tying the same knot twice will give you the alternate form, the individual overhands need to mirror of each other to make a butterfly.
Great analysis of this iconic knot. I don't see that anyone answered you opening question ..... what's on the green screen behind you? You are in the Enchantments Permit area, likely at Gnome Tarn. Over your left shoulder is Prusik Peak, to the right, the knob is the High Priest, the jagged ridge is The Temple group. We packed into the plateau twice in the early 70',s, long before permits were required. Wish that I still had the knees to get up there again!
I'd imagine it was probably invented multiple times throughout the ten thousand years of rope history, but we didn't keep records of it that survived. 100+ year history is hard
I have had the butterfly loop spontaneously show up in different ways in my life. Several times when reeling in old line to my fishing rod the memory of the line formed a coil that twisted and trapped a bight. Another time my kid was playing with some cord and asked if a loop was a knot. Mind you that they aren't able to tie their shoes, so this was a luck discovery. With this in mind, I am sure this knot has been around and used long before it was recorded in print.
Maybe it’s just cuz I’m from Washington but it’s instantly recognizable. There’s like Half Dome, the Hulk, and then Prusik in the Core. Stanley-Burgner 👌🏻
I assume you'd still use a prussic, but you'd clip into that loop as a backup while you unclipped/moved the belay device...trusting your life to a single prussic is scary.
always very educating and brought in a very accessible way , any chance you might want to show how knots infuence the strenght of "standard rigging slings "
@HowNOT2 I’m sure someone has guessed already. But that’s Prusik Peak on The Temple in The Enchantments on the Alpine Lakes Wilderness. Absolutely my favorite place in the world.
Good info. One thing you haven't tested... The butterfly knot is not mirrored in itself. So pulling the loop to the left is different from pulling the loop to the right. The other standing part of the rope is tensioned. Care to try that sometime?
Thanks for all the great video's & info! highline use question: Could you use a butterfly knot in a backup webbing (highline setup) to make a intermittened connection? Since I have a long Parsec (120m / back up) and 2 polar 50m with loops (main)? what would be the "reduce strenght" factor to calculate the overall strenght of the webbing?
What??? I did some years of roped access and 99% of the time I used fig9 (8 with extra twist) and alpine butterfly, I almost never used anything else. I'm still here! Plenty strong enough for me.
@@tomtom4405 Before commenting a know-it-all reply, it's best to actually read what you're replying to, first. Now you just look like an illiterate idiot to everyone.
Amazeballs video. I use the butterfly all the time. Almost as much as the 8 and clove. Great to see its strengths and weaknesses. Also learned a new way to tie it. Ps. Your puffie is loud. 😅
In climbing one of the uses for the alpine is to use it as a bend, to actually to separate a damaged section of rope, especially for rappelling, at which point you'd have to pass the knot. So it slipping is important- granted at +10kn, not a force likely to generate while rappelling
@11:24 is why i tell guys im teaching to climb srt to back up their butterfly with a biner , i wish you would have pulled this with a biner on the loop
16:57 : The first one came out wrong, too. The wings are not on the same side. The left wing looks as if it were facing to the lake (with it's rope) but if you were to pull the legs the left wing would turn away from the lake. This is how I just managed to tie the knot: (with legs I mean the rope coming out of the wings) Go in and have it as at 16:41 and then tighten the overhand knot a bit and then you arrange the leg that is already part of a finished overhand knot to the side like it would be if the alpine butterfly knot were already done. Then you see one rope going over the finished leg and around the loop (loop that goes through the carabiner). This rope already goes around and becomes the leg. Then you can create the other side by also going around the loop but in the opposite direction. After going around, tunnel the finished leg (in the center) and also dive into the overhand loop that you just created. The last step is easier if the unfinished knot is pre-dressed and the leg is arranged as if the knot were completely done.
this is super cool! and informative. I always assumed crossed vs not crossed we variants of the same knot (strength wise) based on real world use and that the only difference was in the way they were tied
My friend who did alpine rescue in south africa told me that they use alpine butterflies to isolate damaged sections of rope. He even suggested using it to combine two ropes together for a double rope rappel.
I like knots that are: a) easy to tie b) easy to inspect I never use the butterfly because it is neither. Here is a wee test to show if the butterfly is easy to inspect. Take a piece of paper and from memory draw a figure eight knot. Now from memory draw a butterfly knot. A rule of thumb could therefore be - if you can't easily draw it you can't easily inspect it.
I was taught the twist method and have never tied this by wrapping around my hand; though I’ve always been decent with knots and haven’t really had difficulty learning new knots.
anyone else notice that the unidentifiable knot from the death slabs fixed line (15:37) looks suspiciously similar to one of the improper ways of tying the ABK after it was pulled to destruction (21:22)?
huh interesting! I just used a phallic knot as my stopper with an overhand for a tagline rappel on a reepschnur hitch. I will now only be tying the double phallic.
For isolating a core-shot segment of rope, the Ashley Book of Knots recommends the Sheepshank Knot (ABK #1152-1166). In particular, ABK #1155 is described as the "safest" variation. I wonder how those knots hold up in climbing rope. I don't think I've ever seen it tested.
Isn't the sheepshank primarily supported directly by the tension in the rope? If one end comes slack for any reason it has the potential to fall apart. The sheepshank seems like a really dumb idea to use in the vertical realm.
To each their own. But for me, I'll stick with a alpine butterfly or similar knot. For one, I wouldn't have to learn to tie off a sheepshank, making the knot more complex, and having more potential to have messed up, and I can save gear for later if necessary. Don't get me wrong, I believe the sheep shank has it's purposes, but I don't think that this is it.
That, Sir, is Prusik Peak in the Enchantments area of the Alpine Lakes Wilderness in Washington State. One of the most uniquely beautiful places I've ever seen.
Personally the way I find is easiest for students to learn is wrap one into crook of thumb, wrap two around base of fingers,third wrap between the two.pull the outside one out as long as required,take the bight and feed it under all the strands from wrist out towards the fingers.
I find it hard to describe in words how I tie knots. For rigging in caves, for most knots, I like to measure the loop length I want, add on appropriate extra for the knot, and then use my left hand to build the knot up from the known desired base point. It keeps things where I want them to be, and works well from muscle memory even when I'm not really in a position to look at what I'm doing For the Alpine, though I know people who do the hand wrap. I don't like it as it's hard to get the very short loops I often want, and not intuitive to me for meaningfully long loops (and sometimes I need *really* long loops). I go for the two-twist method which works for tiny and super-long loops exactly the same way. I hold twist the base of the knot where I want it and hold it between the base of my thumb and the bottom of my little finger with my thumb over it to hold the first twist firmly, twist again and hold that twist with my index finger, and then pull the loop behind and under my hand and push it through where my thumb is, sliding out my thumb at the same time but keeping hold of the base of the knot while I tighten so the base stays where I want it to be. If the desired loop is somewhat long, I may need to jiggle my left index finger, and/or spread my right hand holding the loop top to widen the top of the loop and move the second crossover point further down the knot to where the crossover is easier for my index finger to catch it.
Great video. This one is a classic. I practiced my knots just as you said, while watching UA-cam. Then I went sailing for three months. Alpine Butterfly, bowline? bulletproof. I can do it one handed with my eyes closed. My rolling hitch and cleat hitches..... unreliable. Why? Because I didn't have a railing, life line or cleat by my computer to practice on. And I only tied these on my boat when I needed them (and then retied them.) Three months of sailing every day. Using these knots daily. I was still unreliable, not automatic. The other sailors had more experience than me but inevitably while they were mumbling something about a rabbit and a tree, I'd just reach in and crank off the bowline. I think I've learned that while you might learn knots on the job, it's far better to deliberately practice them becoming more and more efficient. You want them to be automatic and correct. (If I tied a bowline wrong it would feel wrong.) I just learned about the Inuit Bowline. It's a bit more secure than a regular bowline. (Inuit because it was noticed being used on a dog sled over 150 years ago.) So on a sailboat, good to have. Climbing? Maybe for gear but not yer butt. Not yet. I learned almost immediately how to tie the Inuit Bowline by seeing how it was different from the automatic bowline method. ('Car start turn loop', pull the top line through the loop run the bitter end through that loop, roll it over. For the Inuit Bowline the only difference is you pull line below the first loop to make the second loop. If you know the first method you now immediately know how to do the Inuit.) And for the record: I was a terrible Boy Scout, my knots sucked. But I learned.
is the alpine butterfly working for rappelling? is cant get undone because there is a rope in the loop and its retrieveable when you are the ground.. would be nice to know
Kinda amazing to me that pulled extra overhand with the butterfly didn't fail before the butterfly although it looked very close to an EDK but that makes me wonder about what if you had 2 overhand knots, would they be stronger than the butterfly or possibly an 8?
Two knots aren't additive; the second basically impedes the slippage or creep of the one taking the primary load, where breakage will eventually happen if all other end points are stronger (a possible rationale for using a weak knot on a haulbag, in case it were to drop factor 2 onto an anchor). This is all a backup knot does in harness tie-ins as well, and while some sort of backup is imperative for bowline configurations, only an eight inch tail w/o backup is needed for a figure 8 tie-in, as well tested by International certification agencies after exhaustive testing.
20:10 this is a knot but it's just a single overhand slip with a half hitch back. The slipping portion is on the weak side too so not even like a Fisherman's or other termination knot. Not what I would want to trust my life to at the very least.
![The 10 BEST Knots in Life [For VISUAL Learners]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/5lLPAHK_k6I/mqdefault.jpg)
You can use this as a bend like @theropeaccesschannel shows, just make sure your tails are long enough. See his video at ua-cam.com/video/tRrIUybUyd0/v-deo.html
Regular watcher of TRAC, think I came across your via there, more interested in Rope Access these days but do bits of climbing years ago, knotwork; one of those skills that never leaves you and surprises you how often you use it outside of your main reason for using it (climbing, rope access etc). I think I came across RopeLab from here though, can't recall exactly. Keep up the great work.
I stumbled upon a knot where you make a simple loop and make yet another loop 90° offset and 180° flipped inside that loop.
This would result in 2 interconnected loops with 1 pass outside and 2 inside.
Another variation is 2 double loops interconnected in the same way
2 passes outside, 3 inside.
I'm curious if this already exists, how strong it is and how it's called
I tied it as an end loop. ua-cam.com/video/ytjzBH6zqE4/v-deo.html
@HowNOT2 I’m sure someone has guessed already. But that’s Prusik Peak on The Temple in The Enchantments on the Alpine Lakes Wilderness. Absolutely my favorite place in the world.
@HowNOT2 What if we take the end loop and wrap it around and through the "hole" loop one more time?
It will be same knot but with *four* ropes hugged in the center loop instead of two. This theoretically might increase its strength because of a bigger bend radius as well as reduce the chance of it coming undone (not in Dyneema).
I don't rock climb, but you have the most educational videos out there. I can learn so much, yet still not know so much. You do a great job explaining things and I hope you continue to put effort into your channel. I might actually start climbing because you guys make it look so fun and interesting.
I don't climb either, but the alpine butterfly is often used as the loop for a trucker's hitch.
Same! Love this channel though. My cousin trad climbs and I’m slowly learning gear from you so I can get out there and enjoy it with him eventually
I was actually taught that the butterfly can be used to reduce shock loads on static ropes due to its tendency to slip on high loads. I would be so curious to see how it performs in that role!
Was thinking the same…. Shock absorber(s)
In alpine caving techniques, False Butterfly is recommended as a shock absorbing knot.
@@livinginyourwalls4067 I believe this is the 'incorrectly' tied knot shown in 3 at 17:48 which was thought to have a higher tendency to slip.
@@oliverbrain7693yes, with wings on opposing instead of same side
@@ohokcool Though no doubt any of the non-Alpine Butterflys could legitimately be called "false" by someone aiming for an Alpine, the False Butterfly mentioned in ACT is the one at ~19:30 with the twist-and-twist-back tying method giving non-interlocked sides, but both wings on the same side.
Great video!!! One comment, we use the Alpine Butterfly in fire service rescue all the time. We also tell our members, never wrap a rope around your hand. So we teach a different method of tying this knot. Keep up the great work!
Just out of curiosity what method do you teach? Can that method be found elsewhere on YOuTube?
The fastest way to tie it is wrapping around your hand though. Your fingers are just as likely to get munted if you have something tighten while you are doing the twist method especially when threading through. Maybe you have a different one but I know that most of our Fire and Emergency (FENZ) use the twist method but firemen usually know F.A about ropes as they are not climbers first and foremost.
You can 'wrap it round your hand' without actually getting your hand in there
That was the best explanation of how to tie a double alpine butterfly that I have ever seen. Thank you.
The easier way to tie the double alpine butterfly is the hybrid method. Just add an extra wrap around the hand. ua-cam.com/video/DYGdvL9-P30/v-deo.html
I don't understand the need for either of the 2 complicated methods they showed. You can do the standard method of wrapping 3 times around your hand, but do it with both strands, and you'll end up with the same double-loop butterfly knot.
It would be really cool if you got one of those thermal cameras for you phone to see the heat generated in the rope.
I think your production value keeps getting better and better. And you keep finding interesting things with your tests. Awesome stuff 😎
As one of those pedantic "knot guys," I appreciate this deep dive in the Phallic Knot. I look forward to more knot tests *cough* left handed sheet bend *cough*
One of my favorite knots for sharing loads on anchor points due to the multi directional capabilities, temporarily isolating rope damage always adding an overhand as explained on min 13:21, attaching stuff etc… it is a fantastic knot, Also many different ways to tie it ( be aware of the fake one ),as any other knot and rope related stuff it will be safe if done it right. Thank you guys again for sharing such an educational content, what a great channel.
A granny knot never hurt nobody;
👀 asking which is the fake one for a friend.
@@moonshinershonor202
ua-cam.com/video/84LiM1DLN4A/v-deo.htmlsi=-h565ZN2TEvXJ2op
Hiking up asgard pass to tie knots. 😂 Well done sir. 🙏 I love the backdrop.
I find the twist method something I'll never forget, best method for me.
My favorite knot. I've been wanting these tests. Thank you!
So... THAT"s how I have to tie the knot from our logo... Finally a good explanation! :D
Not sure if I should share this, but I was literally wiping my ass when you said "right after you're done wiping". For a second I was afraid I was in a Black Mirror episode.
dude. same.
Omg… same!!
same . i was already planning my exit strategy .
I've actually been using the "Wrong" alpine butterfly(like at 19:30) on purpose when I set up Lead Rope Solo anchors. Has a SS quick link in the loop, so it will never pull through. The "wrong version" is quicker to adjust for equalizing the anchor, and is even easier to untie if I take a whipper on it. If anything, the little slip is a little softer catch.
Love these knot videos. Knot history is one of my favorite things to nerd about.
Right on dude
Super great video. Bit of history and deeper in the trchnical side to stick to simple until i practice and study way more
Prusik Peak, WA. Amazing mountains. A must do for the 5.11 Apline climber!
5.7 climbers can also gain the summit by the Fred Beckey route
Really grateful to see the results of the last variation you tied 'incorrectly' so to speak. In the UK, I know that as a cavers knot. I often use both to link anchors together, using the alpine if they are relatively close or the cavers if there is more distance between. I would tie the cavers as a slip knot locked off with a half hitch over the eye. 🤷♂️
Love you vids, thanks for knowledge share. Happy New Year.
As a long-time UK/alpine caver (my 40th anniversary of playing around on ropes is coming up in December) , virtually every caver I know who rigs ties the true Alpine.
I have only personally experienced one person choosing to tie the non-interlocked-wings #3 as a regular rigging knot, and he was a somewhat newbie rigger I once took on a practice rigging trip.
Once, and never again.
He rigged using #3 tied in two stages (a single overhand with a loop, and another single overhand to finish), which he claimed *was* an Alpine, was faster to tie, and was easier to fine-tune knot-anchor lengths with than other ways of tying it, and which he'd been taught by some supposed instructor(*) he seemed to have some kind of hero worship thing going on with.
Politely demonstrating to him that he was wrong on all three of his claims didn't seem to affect his misplaced hero worship in the least.
To be fair, his knot might have not been meaningfully worse in terms of absolute strength, but it just *looked* really wrong under the not uncommon meaningful 3-way loading, and hanging your entire weight off knots that look wrong isn't many people's idea of fun.
(*Note: this isn't instructor-bashing - some of my friends are great caving instructors, but whoever *that* guy was, I have to wonder what his history was.)
@@davewilson4493 That's an interesting statement Dave, that you haven't seen it in all those years. I was shown it by several CIC's and a British Mountain Guide when I was in the industry full time.
Shame you only saw fit to take the person once for rigging practice, rather than choosing to put in some development time. Though I understand there could be other factors involved, some people you just have feelings about and those aren't the ones you want to rely on when people lives are at stake.
As for your opinion of his three claims, you're right it is not an Alpine Butterfly. However, I would argue that it is super adjustable especially if the anchor is a metre plus away from the equalisation point. That said, rigging a traverse line why wouldn't you use and Alpine.
I was just pleased to know that the 'Cavers Knot' as I know it was Super Good Enough 😊
Prusik Peak in The Enchantments within the Alpine Lakes Wilderness (in Washington)
This is a super well-made and detailed video. Great educational and entertaining content Ryan.
I think the main benefit to some knots is being easy to check. As i see it, the only reason we use the figure 8 for tying in is that you can dress it nice and it's easy even for beginners to check (and easy to untie if i can remember which side for the loaded strand). Tons of other knots are super good enough.
Personally, I found it really hard to tell the difference between the butterfly mistakes. But seeing how the "wrong" butterflies are still strong makes me less scared (though I'll definitely do an overhand backup on a core shot now)
I need to look through and see if you've tested the wrong ways of tying a bowline as that's the one knot i've actually argued with someone about which was the "right" knot.
Bowline (out-in) and cowboy bowline (in-out) are both valid and have similar strength (and are both acceptable in marine purposes. There are different ways to lock each. Cowboy bowline is better at resisting ring loading.
I've also heard the term "Scandinavian bowline", though I don't know which variant it was referring to.
I did the knot exactly as you describe at 3:42 in the video and compared it with the right/wrong version at 19:48 and it doesn't look like any of them! On checking, the image you have at 19:48 is a mirror image of reality - only when the image is mirrored back again does the knot look like the one with the tick. I'm surprised nobody has noticed this.
Nice backdrop, hope you enjoyed the Enchantments, great area.
This is a great video but, for the love of God, why not show a pull test on the double butterfly? That is one of the most used knots for retrievable anchors and load share systems in Rope access. These are considered two independent knots in one and used in a two rope system. It is widely used throughout the industry, yet I have never seen conclusive testing on it. Help us HowNOT2! You're our only hope!!
Love the butterfly. Super easy to untie. Near the end go directional eight. Done and done
criss cross is how i learned it. glad to know it doesn't matter which way you go after that. love this knot.
but only as a utility low weight haul knot. or possibly a low budget etrier thing
Prusik is looking great!
I have no idea why I'm fascinated with just a handfull of knots.. I feel like I have the secret to the universe when I make a bowline or hitch..
you guys got me all tied up in knots over here. most egg sell ant video. very professional feel. great job.
Is there an advantage to using the butterfly to separate the two strands as you did in 24:20 when compared to a clove hitch on the masterpoint carabiner? I couldn't think of any advantages that the butterfly could have.
Mighty nice spot!! I climbed the Burgner/Stanley on Prusik Pk. circa 1979. Think it's been upgraded to 5.10. And many other area routes.
I need some help getting the follow through knot tied, I always end up with the wings on opposite sides. In the video at 17:14 the resulting knot looks like example #1 where the wings are on opposite sides, am I interpreting it wrong?
I figured it out! After the working end of the rope is threaded through the overhand knot, it can go behind the loop two ways: it can go "inwards", across over the elbow of the overhand and around the loop OR it can "outwards", away from the elbow of the overhand and around the loop. If you go inwards and then wrap around the loop, you end up with a proper alpine knot (#2). If you go "outwards" and wrap around the loop you get the "wrong" butterfly with the wings on opposite sides (#1).
I'm pretty confident the example knot Ryan ties is not the "correct" alpine butterfly as the working end is wrapped around the loop "outwards" and the wings appear to be on the opposite sides.
Side note: instead of looking at the wings of the completed knot, I find it easier to look at the ends. If you pull each end of the rope in the opposite direction, are both ends on the same side of their respective wing? If so, it's a correct knot. If one end is in front of it's loop and the other end is behind, then it's wrong.
@@byronc7571 The way I think of it is an overhand knot, interlocking with an 'underhand' knot.
So tying the same knot twice will give you the alternate form, the individual overhands need to mirror of each other to make a butterfly.
I've got the same result.
@@TheAwkwardGoose thanks, I totally see that now! Great way to understand what's happening.
get this dude to a million pls
Thank you. It was a very good analysis❤
This was a fantastic knot video Ryan, good job!
Great analysis of this iconic knot.
I don't see that anyone answered you opening question ..... what's on the green screen behind you? You are in the Enchantments Permit area, likely at Gnome Tarn. Over your left shoulder is Prusik Peak, to the right, the knob is the High Priest, the jagged ridge is The Temple group. We packed into the plateau twice in the early 70',s, long before permits were required. Wish that I still had the knees to get up there again!
Which one is right? At 3:30 and 4:20 parallel strands are in bettween the ears; while at 4:37 parallel is at the back, crisscrossed between the ears
I'd imagine it was probably invented multiple times throughout the ten thousand years of rope history, but we didn't keep records of it that survived. 100+ year history is hard
Tell use with chart which knots are good as strength wise
Great video! I'm going into work late now, since I couldn't stop partway through! 😄
I have had the butterfly loop spontaneously show up in different ways in my life. Several times when reeling in old line to my fishing rod the memory of the line formed a coil that twisted and trapped a bight. Another time my kid was playing with some cord and asked if a loop was a knot. Mind you that they aren't able to tie their shoes, so this was a luck discovery. With this in mind, I am sure this knot has been around and used long before it was recorded in print.
Maybe it’s just cuz I’m from Washington but it’s instantly recognizable. There’s like Half Dome, the Hulk, and then Prusik in the Core. Stanley-Burgner 👌🏻
Thanks for the knot strength tests and bitcoin charts, enjoyed it, eager to browse through the rest of your videos.
I always planned I would use a prusic to pass a knot (keep one on my belt always) but I like this technique
I assume you'd still use a prussic, but you'd clip into that loop as a backup while you unclipped/moved the belay device...trusting your life to a single prussic is scary.
@@Gortmendyeah if the prusic failed I would just fall a few inches and have to catch myself with my atc it wouldn’t be ideal
Awesome video. Love the idea ABK suggests this knot is only 100 plus years old. Backdrop: Sundial Peak (Big Cottonwood Canyon, Utah)?
always very educating and brought in a very accessible way , any chance you might want to show how knots infuence the strenght of "standard rigging slings "
@HowNOT2 I’m sure someone has guessed already. But that’s Prusik Peak on The Temple in The Enchantments on the Alpine Lakes Wilderness. Absolutely my favorite place in the world.
Immediately after hitting around the 4 minute mark, I went to the bathroom, took a massive dump and practiced the tying technique
Nailed the [edu-tainment] format on this mate 😃👍 More please 🤙
This knot makes a great bend or tied differently, an end loop.
Gnome Tarn. I have that same shot from climbing Prusik Peak, beautiful.
what is difference in tests between 5:28 and 9:07 , why is one tests causing it to snap and the other to slip
1452 looks like a "zeppelin bend" to me. a really great easy to tie knot to have in your pocket!
Good info. One thing you haven't tested... The butterfly knot is not mirrored in itself. So pulling the loop to the left is different from pulling the loop to the right. The other standing part of the rope is tensioned. Care to try that sometime?
Thanks for all the great video's & info! highline use question: Could you use a butterfly knot in a backup webbing (highline setup) to make a intermittened connection? Since I have a long Parsec (120m / back up) and 2 polar 50m with loops (main)? what would be the "reduce strenght" factor to calculate the overall strenght of the webbing?
26:12 that veiw
BEAUTIFUL video! Thank you Ryan.
Prusik Peak, was there last week. Specifically at the gnome tarn by Prusik.
As a rope access technician, I would never trust my life to a butterly knot. Butterflies are much stronger.
You're right, butterly knots slip way more than butterfly knots 😂
🤷♂️
How you would create 18kN force ?
What??? I did some years of roped access and 99% of the time I used fig9 (8 with extra twist) and alpine butterfly, I almost never used anything else. I'm still here! Plenty strong enough for me.
@@tomtom4405 Before commenting a know-it-all reply, it's best to actually read what you're replying to, first.
Now you just look like an illiterate idiot to everyone.
Amazeballs video.
I use the butterfly all the time. Almost as much as the 8 and clove. Great to see its strengths and weaknesses. Also learned a new way to tie it.
Ps. Your puffie is loud. 😅
In climbing one of the uses for the alpine is to use it as a bend, to actually to separate a damaged section of rope, especially for rappelling, at which point you'd have to pass the knot. So it slipping is important- granted at +10kn, not a force likely to generate while rappelling
@11:24 is why i tell guys im teaching to climb srt to back up their butterfly with a biner , i wish you would have pulled this with a biner on the loop
I give it a like because, for the first time I see the Ashley knot number on UA-cam.
16:57 : The first one came out wrong, too. The wings are not on the same side. The left wing looks as if it were facing to the lake (with it's rope) but if you were to pull the legs the left wing would turn away from the lake.
This is how I just managed to tie the knot:
(with legs I mean the rope coming out of the wings)
Go in and have it as at 16:41 and then tighten the overhand knot a bit and then you arrange the leg that is already part of a finished overhand knot to the side like it would be if the alpine butterfly knot were already done. Then you see one rope going over the finished leg and around the loop (loop that goes through the carabiner). This rope already goes around and becomes the leg. Then you can create the other side by also going around the loop but in the opposite direction. After going around, tunnel the finished leg (in the center) and also dive into the overhand loop that you just created.
The last step is easier if the unfinished knot is pre-dressed and the leg is arranged as if the knot were completely done.
this is super cool! and informative. I always assumed crossed vs not crossed we variants of the same knot (strength wise) based on real world use and that the only difference was in the way they were tied
My friend who did alpine rescue in south africa told me that they use alpine butterflies to isolate damaged sections of rope. He even suggested using it to combine two ropes together for a double rope rappel.
How does it compare to a bowline on a bite? Feel like they would perform pretty similarly in most of the tests? Maybe
Ooo Prusik Peak! Love the Core!
Going to absolutely start using this on my hammock.
I like knots that are:
a) easy to tie
b) easy to inspect
I never use the butterfly because it is neither. Here is a wee test to show if the butterfly is easy to inspect. Take a piece of paper and from memory draw a figure eight knot. Now from memory draw a butterfly knot. A rule of thumb could therefore be - if you can't easily draw it you can't easily inspect it.
I see we agree on the name.
now I know you are GOOD!
I was taught the twist method and have never tied this by wrapping around my hand; though I’ve always been decent with knots and haven’t really had difficulty learning new knots.
I need to review all the permutations of this butterfly knot. Thanks
anyone else notice that the unidentifiable knot from the death slabs fixed line (15:37) looks suspiciously similar to one of the improper ways of tying the ABK after it was pulled to destruction (21:22)?
As for where your background picture was taken, that's Prussik Peak back there, and I am guessing that is Gnome Tarn in the foreground?
Great video! Thanks for the number of details, and the great explanations.
Great video. Looks like watersprite lake in the background
huh interesting! I just used a phallic knot as my stopper with an overhand for a tagline rappel on a reepschnur hitch. I will now only be tying the double phallic.
Prusik Peak! I love living so close to that range.
For isolating a core-shot segment of rope, the Ashley Book of Knots recommends the Sheepshank Knot (ABK #1152-1166). In particular, ABK #1155 is described as the "safest" variation. I wonder how those knots hold up in climbing rope. I don't think I've ever seen it tested.
Isn't the sheepshank primarily supported directly by the tension in the rope? If one end comes slack for any reason it has the potential to fall apart. The sheepshank seems like a really dumb idea to use in the vertical realm.
@@climbing200 Right, but there are versions where you tie off the ends in some way. Not saying I'd use it, I was just curious how it'd hold up.
@@climbing200 I have no climbing experience but I’ve seen a toggle used to keep the sheep shank safe.
To each their own. But for me, I'll stick with a alpine butterfly or similar knot. For one, I wouldn't have to learn to tie off a sheepshank, making the knot more complex, and having more potential to have messed up, and I can save gear for later if necessary.
Don't get me wrong, I believe the sheep shank has it's purposes, but I don't think that this is it.
You got me with the like button joke, I'm in!
That, Sir, is Prusik Peak in the Enchantments area of the Alpine Lakes Wilderness in Washington State. One of the most uniquely beautiful places I've ever seen.
Personally the way I find is easiest for students to learn is wrap one into crook of thumb, wrap two around base of fingers,third wrap between the two.pull the outside one out as long as required,take the bight and feed it under all the strands from wrist out towards the fingers.
I find it hard to describe in words how I tie knots.
For rigging in caves, for most knots, I like to measure the loop length I want, add on appropriate extra for the knot, and then use my left hand to build the knot up from the known desired base point. It keeps things where I want them to be, and works well from muscle memory even when I'm not really in a position to look at what I'm doing
For the Alpine, though I know people who do the hand wrap. I don't like it as it's hard to get the very short loops I often want, and not intuitive to me for meaningfully long loops (and sometimes I need *really* long loops).
I go for the two-twist method which works for tiny and super-long loops exactly the same way.
I hold twist the base of the knot where I want it and hold it between the base of my thumb and the bottom of my little finger with my thumb over it to hold the first twist firmly, twist again and hold that twist with my index finger, and then pull the loop behind and under my hand and push it through where my thumb is, sliding out my thumb at the same time but keeping hold of the base of the knot while I tighten so the base stays where I want it to be.
If the desired loop is somewhat long, I may need to jiggle my left index finger, and/or spread my right hand holding the loop top to widen the top of the loop and move the second crossover point further down the knot to where the crossover is easier for my index finger to catch it.
Looks like you near Prusik Peak in the Enchantments in Washington State, close to Mt. Stuart.
Prusik Peak! Great climbs.
Is there any simulation software that can show the internal stresses and fails inside knotted ropes of various kinds?
i had had a wrongly tied butterfly that had load on it, it didn't give, but it was pretty hard to undo afterwards
Great video. This one is a classic. I practiced my knots just as you said, while watching UA-cam. Then I went sailing for three months. Alpine Butterfly, bowline? bulletproof. I can do it one handed with my eyes closed. My rolling hitch and cleat hitches..... unreliable. Why? Because I didn't have a railing, life line or cleat by my computer to practice on. And I only tied these on my boat when I needed them (and then retied them.) Three months of sailing every day. Using these knots daily. I was still unreliable, not automatic. The other sailors had more experience than me but inevitably while they were mumbling something about a rabbit and a tree, I'd just reach in and crank off the bowline. I think I've learned that while you might learn knots on the job, it's far better to deliberately practice them becoming more and more efficient. You want them to be automatic and correct. (If I tied a bowline wrong it would feel wrong.)
I just learned about the Inuit Bowline. It's a bit more secure than a regular bowline. (Inuit because it was noticed being used on a dog sled over 150 years ago.) So on a sailboat, good to have. Climbing? Maybe for gear but not yer butt. Not yet.
I learned almost immediately how to tie the Inuit Bowline by seeing how it was different from the automatic bowline method. ('Car start turn loop', pull the top line through the loop run the bitter end through that loop, roll it over. For the Inuit Bowline the only difference is you pull line below the first loop to make the second loop. If you know the first method you now immediately know how to do the Inuit.) And for the record: I was a terrible Boy Scout, my knots sucked. But I learned.
is the alpine butterfly working for rappelling?
is cant get undone because there is a rope in the loop and its retrieveable when you are the ground..
would be nice to know
you're at Gnome Tarn right next to Prusik Peak
Fantastic! I wish I could subscribe multiple times 😁
Nice weather at the Matterhorn 😊
Kinda amazing to me that pulled extra overhand with the butterfly didn't fail before the butterfly although it looked very close to an EDK but that makes me wonder about what if you had 2 overhand knots, would they be stronger than the butterfly or possibly an 8?
Two knots aren't additive; the second basically impedes the slippage or creep of the one taking the primary load, where breakage will eventually happen if all other end points are stronger (a possible rationale for using a weak knot on a haulbag, in case it were to drop factor 2 onto an anchor). This is all a backup knot does in harness tie-ins as well, and while some sort of backup is imperative for bowline configurations, only an eight inch tail w/o backup is needed for a figure 8 tie-in, as well tested by International certification agencies after exhaustive testing.
Yee ol' prusik peak. Enchantments are gorgeous.
Nice work. At about 20 min in would you call that an overhand loop with an half-hitch backup?
just here to say what I know I'll have to say to my rescue students: 9kN is SUPER good enough!
Gnome Tarn with Prusik peak behind. In the core of the Enchantments!
0:30 if thats a green screen then im a aero plane pilot ahahaha
That water looks as real as their are birds in the sky and fish in the sea ahaha
20:10 this is a knot but it's just a single overhand slip with a half hitch back. The slipping portion is on the weak side too so not even like a Fisherman's or other termination knot. Not what I would want to trust my life to at the very least.
Not only that, you misspelled it in your thumbnail.
Butterly knots are extra slippery :). Thanks!
Lol I didn't even catch that