good watch .. Thanks .. It'll be all right if we move to 6 inch holes in the HFT /FT targets .. I can see the future having discussions after a course of how we all missed that "killer 3 inch reducer at 15 feet"
I remember Ted’s holdover testing .177 pellets at speed and found out that they were unstable at the kind of speeds produced here. If you could reduce the power and speed of these the groups may start to close up.
Interesting test,They remind me of the old Prometheus,they were shit too 😂,penetration isn’t as important as energy for a humane kill which is why many hunters prefer .22 for that extra punch,totally agree,if they’re not degradable plastic they’re far worse then lead.
Yea me too, can’t beat lead, The “titan blacks” where shite too (lead with plastic jacket) but better than the Prometheus, these fancy pellets have always been crap and always will be.
If they made them out of cellulose plastic it might be worth while. The batch number in the base of the pellet is a nice idea. I like the idea of them being made in batches. From a business point of view they can either be mixed and sold at a cheaper price or sorted in factory and sold for a more premium price. I can see people enjoying sorting each batch number for different type of airguns.
"The batch number in the base of the pellet is a nice idea." Do we *know* that the numbers relate to a production batch? From what I know about plastic manufacture, (and wearing my "pedant" hat) I would guess that the number relates to the cavity number of the mould. (Probably producing 13+ pellets from a single cycle of the injection moulding machine.) Still worth sorting and seating the metal core as discussed in the video though.
Nice review. I tested a variety of lead free pellets for Gun Mart / Shooting Sports some years ago and they were pretty dodgy back then, nothing has really changed, regardless of the materials used. Gotta love the likes of H&N, RWS, GAMO etc for tooling up and trying, but if you can't get reliable, repeatable accuracy then it is just wasted R&D.
No such thing as wasted R and D because we are still having the conversation. 😅 cheers to the engineers that got nasty emails for two weeks on a minor design issue inside of quality trials.😊
I remember back in the 80's there were plastic skirted pellets called Prometheus and Sabo. Accuracy was an issue due to plastic build up in the rifling.
I think the numbers on the base is the position on the injection mould. If some are misformed and all the same number ,they can identify the mould that may need attention.
Good shout on the numbers. Plastic aside, they felt pretty well formed on loading. Seems mostly the tips aren't pressed in evenly which seems mad as I'm sure they would have a press to do it evenly 🤔
@@tillysgunstocks I know when I worked at a contact lens factory the injection moulding machines put a number on each mould. If all the lenses that failed the optical measurement test came from the same mould number they knew that mould needed reworked. . I would assume its the same. I'm sure Prometheus pellets had numbered bases at one time too.
Yes this is common practice in the injection moulding industry. In multi cavity tools, each cavity has its own number. If there's an issue with mouldings from a particular cavity it's easy to identify which cavity is causing the issue. This problem cavity can then be "blanked" and production can continue using the good cavities. The bad cavity can then be repaired after the production run. It might be interesting to check cavity numbers before shooting, this might identify problem pellets when checking pellet/accuracy issues. If the "flyers" are all from say cavity 6 and 10, you could sort them prior to use much like we do when weighing lead pellets.
Here's a theory, barrels are relatively rough inside, lead fills the imperfections (hence the need to lead-in a barrel), I've a feeling the plastic leaves minute fibres in the rifling (as you found when you pulled through the barrel afterwards) which can break off and affect the next pellet that passes over. They may perform differently in an FX smoothtwist barrel. The over-penetration doesn't bode well for humane kills either.
I reckon the same mate, it was really wispy fluff that pulled through so likely the first few were reasonable then as it fouled up got progressively worse. I dont like to get too into the pest control stuff on the channel, but the steel tipped plastic pellets are still the recommended for dispatch of trapped mink in the uk and also quite popular elsewhere on quarry that is scaly.. not tails,actual scales 😉
I agree with you whole heartedly. I've been shooting for 52 years and have found that once I have tested for the most accurate pellet in a particular rifle then that's the only pellet I ever use in that rifle. This has a number of benefits; firstly, the barrel becomes leaded-in to that pellet and accuracy gets better and more consistent the more I shoot (even changing to another brand of lead pellet can change the leading-in of the barrel). Secondly, I very rarely have to adjust my scope, so my aim point is consistent and my hold-over at various ranges becomes second nature. Thirdly, accuracy is the key to hunting. If you hit the kill zone you will dispatch that creature. I always use 'field target' pellets for hunting as they tend to be the most accurate. I don't know what I'll do if a lead ban is brought in because it will probably mean that none of my guns will be as accurate as they are now. Just my opinion and welcome any thoughts. 👍
@@jeremymanning2132 Even sticking to one brand will occasionally throw up a flyer, possibly when a bit of lead comes loose from the rifling, which is when it's time to clean it and start again. My worry about the lead free is the over penetration - yes, accuracy is king, but a hard lump of metal which hasn't lost a lot of energy in the quarry will have a lot of energy left to damage anything it hits if it ricochets. I only shoot rats in the chicken coup these days, and would rather the lead stopped in their head....
@@bobthebarsteward I can see your point if you are rat shooting in a livestock building, not a good idea to leave bits of lead or other metal/plastic lying around for chickens to ingest. Most of my hunting is done at 30 to 50 yards, hence very rarely does the pellet leave an exit wound with a sub 12ft/lb rifle. With regard to fliers, true, they do occasionally occur, but far less often with good quality pellets like AA Diabolo Field or Weirauch FT Exact etc. To be honest, if I get a flier, it's normally down to me and not the gun or pellet. Thanks for the feedback. 👍
Interesting as always. Thank you for doing all this pellet testing. On the subject of lead / plastics - last time I checked lead was a natural element in different concentrations. Plastics are chocking the world in a much shorter time than lead. How long have we been using lead for bullets, pellets and shotgun cartridges, pipes etc.
I like any excuse to get out the workshop and shoot mate, I really enjoy trying out the various pellets and things. Plastic is a much bigger and immediate problem than lead ever will be, it just never goes away,just gets smaller. Even with these spent cases, what am I supposed to do with them now? Recycle them? They will just end up in landfill. I get the irony that I bought them,but it was a good medium to use for a plastics rant...😉
@@andrewanderson3472 nothing has died from lead poisoning from a bullet still in their body. My relative had a shotgun pellet in his hand for over 70 years lots of gun dogs have pellets in them. There are veterans with bullets in them. This lead ban came from lead in waterfowl. This could be solved by only shooting steel over water.
Plastic is a by product of oil - ergo plastic is a multi "squillion" dollar global income source - for the very small amount of elitist globalists who control the worlds oil income and profits. The globalists, through their propaganda machine, the Mainstream Media, have brainwashed the worlds population into believing that lead can get into the food chain, and lead to lead poisoning in humans and wildlife. I'm seventy five, and have been eating game and wildfowl all my life ????. They started with anglers and made them use lead free weights, then they moved onto the wildfowlers, and I have just found out that one of the big shooting estates in Yorkshire has now gone totally " non toxic " shot ! which prices the working man out of the equation. But hey Ho !! - The Armies of the world still shoot each other with copper jacketed lead and "environmentally safe " depleted Uranium ! Just by way of analogy, there are millions of people world wide who still believe that you can overcome global warming by throwing money at it ? Propaganda !!
I tried them recently and not one of my guns, Pcp's, springers or a gasram liked them. Plus if we're talking eco friendly then, as you say, plastic is worse than lead. In my opinion they are a marketing gimic to try and cash in on the current green trend!
Myself prefers lead and the softer the lead the better it kills as it causes a bigger wound channel as it dumps all its energy in the area that it hits unlike pellets that penetrates to deeply
Mate, (I'm from the US, so I get a real kick out of sayin' that. LOL) Gamo equates with Crapo, when it comes to their pellets. Don't be surprised when you get bad, inconsistent results. I keep hoping that someone will prove, concerning that particular brand, that the consensus among airgunners is wrong, but it never seems to happen. If it weren't for the newbies that don't know any better, I don't think they would even have a market for their pellets, honestly. I'd like to point out that, because I'm a bit of an old fart, I have been trying out these two piece, non-lead and plastic, hybrid, speedy as hell, gonna save the world from lead poisoning "pellets"/"bits of excrement" since the 1980s when the Prometheus brand was introduced. Trust me when I say that no significant advancements have been made. It apparently is very hard to produce a projectile, from a SINGLE material, that is free of voids and is of a consistent density to produce tight groups at appreciable ranges. When you try to BOND two differing materials, in a consistent manner, to achieve the same goal, I have come to think it isn't practical at a reasonable cost. IMHO SYS (Save Your Shillings), Mate. (I really love that term of endearment!) One other thing to be aware of is, here in the US where we get to run ++++12 fpe guns if we like, the plastic causes a lot of fouling at high velocities. I appreciate your efforts and you spending your money to do these tests saves me from spending mine, so I thank you for spending your cash to educate the rest of us. Cheers!
I've tried these out of lower-powered co2 carbines and handguns and they were very erratic as far as grouping. I wonder if they'd group better out of my pcps or pneumatic pump guns? I also had high hopes for these and I paid way too much for them. Thank you for the video/review. 👍👍
The chemist that creates a biodegradable, lead free, accurate, affordable pellet that works just as good as lead, will become instantly rich and famous. But we aint that smart folks. We cant store antimatter either... But good video.
I'm not sure about the availability nowadays, but Winchester MVP round nose pellets are lead-free and shoot very well out of a wide range of my airguns. If you can score a tin of them, try them out. 👍
Hello Sir, Thank you very much for going to the lengths you do, in your quest to find a good pellet. Everything you do and say makes great sense, and I'm very impressed if I may say, at how thorough you are. I quite agree, I don't see, on the face of it, the sense of making pellets out of plastic, when like you say, it poses one of the biggest threats to our environment. I really enjoyed your film and thank you. Your air rifle looks like a really smart piece of kit. With great respect, the traditional air rifle, walnut stock, edges it for me. Nonetheless, it looks a beauty, and I hope it serves you well, my friend.
Hi mate, thanks for being a part of the channel 👍 I'm in the fortunate position that I work on this stuff every day so get to see what's good and what's not. I really enjoy just being out and trying stuff out but if it means I can help you make a better informed decision on something then that's even better. There's lots more planned for the future, I'm only just getting started really 😉 I do like a bit of walnut myself but the laminate always looks cool,especially on film. I'll be upgrading the Anschutz shortly to something a little different, keep an eye out for it 😉
They were doing just under 900fps. Given the lack of weight (5.56grain) that barely scraped 10ftlb. It would be basically impossible to get these to run even close to 11.5 ftlb .thy would be well over 1000fps to do that and they lose the velocity so quickly they would be even less stable downrange than at the 7-800fps range of our usual sub12 lead ammo.
The only hybrid pellet I've tried is the RWS power ball which is included with the RWS sample packs. It's stil a lead skirt but has a coated steel head. I tried them out for a bit of amusement but actually found them to be quite accurate.
Im sure I remember thoben doing un choked barrels for a very similar pellet called Prometheus late 80s early 90s I remember them because they where crap and left plastic in the barrel
I'm looking forward to trying them when they arrive. Don't know wether any of my barrels will have a fast enough twist rate,but im looking for something faster for the slugs
@@tillysgunstocks apparently Kral barrels like slugs after a bit of work. I'm trying to get a 4.5 Kral barrel. 580mm long. Worth a try plus it contributes something to Turkey.
I purchased accupels when they first came out and gave them away after about 20 shots, thought they were awfully inaccurate for the hype. Then I tried the Prometheus plastic waisted and found too many ''wire threads'' in the barrel so gave those away too. Eventually I bought a tin of very cheap lead pellets that were triple waisted and were incredibly accurate.
guess its down to the gun i used accupels in a pcp bsa superten wiyh rea; good accuracy bhav ing said gthat some of the best i have used were wasp pellets at 5.6 not 5.5 good groups and good knockdown on rabbits out to 25
Gamo Lethal will actually fit into cartridges of some CO2 pistols, although at first they appear too long, like other ‘hunting’ pellets. They work nicely with Crosman Vigilante - the lighter weight being a perfect match with the lower powered CO2 - gives faster speed and a harder punch.
I am a newbie in air weapons, my half a century of shooting being with carbon burners until very recently, but... Might be pushing the over design velocity... they are effectively a sabot projectile, but the sabot staying with the business end means that really fine accuracy is not likely as it depends on every sabot being identical and placed exactly the same relative to the actual projectile. The distortion of the plastic bit on leaving the barrel will never be the same twice in a row.... a bit like having a barrel with a less than perfect crown. With such tiny projectiles the smallest inconsistency will have a big effect on target. Try them a bit slower, and maybe from a smooth-bore.... they should stabilise OK without twist and might in fact be more accurate that way. Discarding sabots are very accurate from smooth-bores (used in tanks these days, but the actual projectiles have fins) but these little fellows stay connected, so a bit of a different scenario. Interesting Video... 🙂
Well those Suck bring back the old Prometheus Pellets I used them decades ago in my springers and never had problems like that they were very accurate out to 35yrs no problems
Im am sorry but ok remove the led witch will be bad for us all but don’t replace with plastic that will be even worse micro plastic is already getting into the food chain we need a valid salutation and plastic is not the answer. Great content we need to come together as a community to find solutions
Great video and incredible information. I did look at some research from the State of CA about MPs in raptors but it was inconclusive as to toxicity. Raptors and predators that eat wounded or dead game birds or varmints shot or killed with lead pellets, ether from a shotgun shell or any other form of lead ammo (like a .77 or .22 Cal projectile) only need ingest a micro dose of lead to die a very painful and slow death, from which most cannot be saved unless found very early on. I am desperately searching for lead-free .177 Cal. ammo for pest control around my house because I prefer to feed the carcasses to the other wild animals and do not want to contribute to lead poisoning, nor have lead waste in the yard due to misses. Just a little more info on the trade-off between lead and plastic. Statistics and field info will show lead to be highly, highly toxic and the worst of the two. Thanks again for a great video!
Hi mate, if you absolutely need lead free(as it sounds you do) the jsb versions are almost acceptable at shorter ranges and low wind. They are made on the dies of the heavies, but ofcourse much lighter. They are probably the best of the pb free from my testing 😉
@@tillysgunstocks , Thanks again for your advice. Just purchased some JSB GTO Non-Lead .177 Pellets that will be here early next week! I'll let you know how they go. I do some volunteer work building nest boxes and installing them for bluebirds and other secondary cavity nesters (song birds that nest in cavities but do not make their own) and am an avid birder. However, where I live, two invasive species; English (House) Sparrows and European Starlings, out-compete the native species through ultra-aggressiveness and by having more broods per nesting season than the natives. They will simply go into the nest boxes and either kill the parents on the nest, or kill the babies, then the parents (if they happen to still be in the nest box, then nest in the boxes themselves. I mainly use the air rifle to even up the odds, especially around my house. Then, the culled non-native species get recycled back to the predators around the area, thus the need for the lead-free pellets. Looking forward to trying the new ammo. Thanks again.
gonna throw my favorites in the hat too: fritzcell eisenherz (you get near identical looking ones from other brands too but those are the ones i can talk about) - very consistent outta my haenel 303 in terms of speed reasonably hard hitting they make about 10mm into solid old furniture wood about twice what a lead one would do outta the same rifle. i can hit a bottlecap with them at 5yrds with ironsights...
@@tillysgunstocks, just a quick note of thanks on that recommend for the lead-free JSB pellets. Much lighter than I have ever shot but very accurate and stopping power from expansion is excellent. I have literally a cheap, pump air rifle from Walmart with a $28 scope and I’m consistently making one-shot lethal hits at up to 35 yards and in all conditions except super windy weather. Thank you again for this recommendation. I’ve never had an ammo/firearm match so well in terms of immediate use as I have after getting the JSB pellets, literally from the first shot. Exceptional. Much obliged.
These remind me of Prometheus Pellet from the 1980's these ones dont look as good as them as they were 'spitzer' shaped and more pointy, useless at long range but really good penetration up close - but I would only use them in a British barrel like a BSA or a Webley, as have seen them separate and stick in the barrels of some continental guns not only that the clearance between the skirt and the metal head of the slug was very small so not much margin for error and the 1st batches were made of steel! the other composite slug I remember was the sussex sabot, i never liked those either as accuracy went down the toilet once u have used them a while as they left plastic in the bore too.. I havent shot my left handed hw80 in nearly 30 years I still have it, so am old fashioned lol, I dont see how plastic is eco friendly, I would rather stick to lead rather than plastic going up the barrel having seen stuck Prometheus pellets in a barrel of an old leather washered .22 hw35 back in the day that used to diesel a lot... , the 2 piece pellet had split leaving the skirt in the tight barrel, accuracy suffered after I got it out so had to scrub and polish the bore to restore it, I reckon it was down to a tiny film of plastic left last half of the barrel as the it was choked,
they performed about as bad as i expected, so far i've yet to see any lead free pellets actually perform decently out after 10 yards.. Btw Zan slugs have just dropped some lead free slugs :P pricey but worth a look as an alternative to the plastic-but-not-fantastic junk offerings out at the moment
They look injection moulded, that's what the numbers are for. Need micrometer for size and accurate weight per cavity number to get mode, median and mean.
Thing is lead isn’t biodegradable either, to get any sort of group with non-lead pellets. I have to clean the barrel every 10 shots ! They are getting there, but at the moment they’re useless for me as a target shooter..
I'm waiting to see if someone tries the opposite with some sort of FMJ the technology is well matured, copper outer would run on the rifling get bullet shaped high BC and a hollow point they just need to find a new squishy core that isn't bloody plastic, like a wax or resin full of some sort. Would still be more expensive. Lead in air rifle pellet form really isn't that much trouble just sits around with oxide on I petrol going into the air was terrible, hopefully there will be work arounds for target clubs by just have more catcher targets and then on the plus side the lead can go back to the scrapyard for recycling into more pellets.
Could it be that the plastic skirts are coming away from some of the projectiles mid flight causing inaccuracy. Some of those holes looked smaller than others on your paper, maybe try superglue on a few pellets and see if it makes a difference.
*Most of Gamo best sellers are based on the novelty aspect...* People are big fans of the red fires but to me they just look like bad quality polymags. I never had the chance to try the Lethal's yet but for the price I've seen them in the past it will most likely never happen. _I still need to test them tho... Them fancy penetrators are so expensive I won't shoot them 🤣_
J ai deja testé ces plomb avec une carabine emitations blak ops 19.9 joule ces plombs avec la jupe en plastique lethale sont puissants je percé a 50m sans lunettes
I have found the lighter the pellet, the more it will corkscrew in flight at higher velocities and it will make your groups erratic. The Gamo Redfire pellets have the same qualities and accurate out of my smooth bores.
Larger bore pellets. .22 and above tend to flip after they come out of barrel a high pressure blast if air going faster than pellet will flip it. I have a hassan .25 and after I put a donny fl moderator( some call supressor) prevents pellet from flipping around and more accurate plus quieter. The main point of a moderator is accuracy
while lead is legal I'm sure we will see many chancers like these wasters from gamo, designed for close shooting i bet. Great point re the micro plastics and yes wild life is sure to nibble that pellet over lead as i doubt the copper/metal tip stays intact so potentially wildlife with broken teeth too. pellet catchers at the club is the future and that means lead will be available so no panic just yet.
@@mikekaaeah9156 I've 3D printed pellets with PLA. Not perfect but accuracy is pretty decent within 50 yards. The penetration is insane since I've combined it with 1 inch steel finishing nails. Goes through one side of a fire extinguisher that even a 9mm handgun can't do with a single shot. This is out of a 30FPE .22 air rifle.
They flyers might come from too high speed, since with the little weight they might fly into transsonic speeds and tumble from time to time due to little variations. Did you try lowering the power when using these hybrid pellets? Btw.: I would consider making your own ammo type, like e.g. some type of copper/bronze slugs with the help of a small hydraulic press. It is some work to do, but it might be the best choice as long as there is no environmentally friendly "biopolymere/mild steel" hybrid pellets.
Iv'e watched the development of lead free pellets with interest over the years; and once again they are not up to any kind of standard. I think that the plastic needs to be nearly as hard as lead to grip the bore? For they are going down the barrel far too fast- possibly not gripping the rifling as well as harder materials. Just a thought! Remember they will only be needed when shooting near food stuffs or if the animal is going into the food chain (rabbits are shot in the head will this count?) this is all up to B A S C and other bodies, in the future. BUT remember that they jumped the gun with Wildfowling, a year before before any one was really ready. So to all you shooters out there STOCK UP ON YOUR FAVORITE PELLETS.
Well I won't be spending any money on those then! I bought my pellets in bulk about 4 years ago as I was told there would be issues and the prices would go through the roof. I have enough at 74 years of age to see me out. I've saved about £6 per 500 tin average (.177 and .22) on current prices.
These pellets are not new I used them in the early eighties in a 22 hw 35. They were called Prometheus. I still have some and they were definitely more accurate than the gamo you are now using. Phil
There is no such thing as bio-degradeable plastic. Despite the commercial claims, the plastic is still the same, only the solution element dissipates faster than on the regular plastic. So, the bio-degradeable plastic creates micro plastic particles faster than regular plastic does. BUT, you can make actually bio-degradeable material that is as good as plastic, using wood fibers such as paper or cardboard. Adding a bit of candle wax coating, the end product is water proof and forms better air seal than lead. Depending on the pressure where the shape is formed, it can hold as much pressure as lead pellet. They shoot fairly heavy slugs with hard powder loads using paper mash wads.
Nice review and well put together, don’t know why you are so impressed with penetration, a six inch nail and a hammer has good penetration but you can’t shoot them through an air rifle either. I’ve spent a fortune on lead free ammo over the last 18 months and it’s all crap and renders my guns useless, unless your happy shooting tin cans at 10m. I’m not happy unless I’m trying to hit 24mm chalk discs at 45m. So basically my guns are scrap in 5 months time.
Personally I have no interest in the penetration characteristics of an ammo. Quite the opposite infact,much prefer to dump the energy in expansion. However these and the Prometheus type pellets are actually recomended in the UK for humane dispatch of trapped mink as they need that penetration. Cheers for watching 😉
@@tillysgunstocks I’ve been shooting competitively for over 40 years from air, Rimfire, centrefire and clays once twice a week never heard of Prometheus to be used on Mink. I used them back back in the 80’s in my HW35 and I know they will go through the dogs enamel water bowl and get you a thick ear from the old man, but that’s all they’re were good for. Every days a learning day. (Pembrokeshire, Wales)👍👍👍
Objects traveling at transonic speed (just under/over the speed of sound) will lose stability behave in unpredictable ways. Especially if the object wasn't that aerodynamic to begin with. This is because even though the object itself isn't traveling at supersonic speed it may still create localized supersonic airflows around it. Aviators learned about this phenomenon the hard way back in the 40's. It was known by arms designers long before that. Try a weaker (or stronger) rifle or pistol. There might have been some leftover barrel gunk that slowed down the first two shots.
Am guessing that the plastic is clogging the rifling up I had the same problem with Prometheus pellets seemed to work better in very low powered co2 guns.. they were that bad I got little coils of plastic out the rifling.. in a nutshell didn’t really work for me…
Wait..... how is plastic better for the environment I'm sure it's worse. Copper is less inert and extremely toxic to invertebrates, you literally use it to wipe aquariums clean. These are much, much worse. A classic case of trying to fix something that wasn't broken. Lead is salvagable with a metal detector on high sensitivity settings too, and actually have a salvage value to motivate a clean-up
38% more accurate than what? We may ask. Throwing rocks? Using a sling? 😏🤷♂️ good review mate. 👍👏 And what’s the point of using a fancy complicated pellet as inaccurate as these are!! What a waste of money. 😏
Have you tried predator poly mags .. my fx maverick loved them at all ranges didn’t like anything else… being pointed plastic tips it surprised me out to 45 yds.
I've got predator poly mags, and the short versions,aswell as the h&n red scorpions for some ballistic gel testing. It'll be fun to see what happens on impact... 😉
Looks like these pellets started keyhole-ing really badly. Most likely getting plastic buildup in the rifling preventing them from getting a good stabilization.
They should make lead free slugs. The light metal should produce slugs at a weight around the level of pellets. So they should shoot at sub 12ft/lb but have the ballistic benefits of a slug. Haven’t seen any .177 slugs that would shoot well, so maybe this is an option.
@@andyfry745I figured that a tin slug would have a similar weight to a lead pellet and may work at the shorter distances typical of sub 12ft/lb shooting. I’m sure you’re right with the science, but would like to see it up against the odd cocktail of the pellets/slugs in this video.
Ideally we need the mass of the lead ammo. It's definitely possible to build a rig to suit pb free slugs but the twist rates and valving are going to need serious work and it's almost certainly not something that can be done on mass for factory rifles sadly
@@tillysgunstocks sorry, just so I understand …. Do slugs need a particular mass to work (tin is about 40% lighter than lead I think) or are current rifles developed to fire particular ammo (some barrels don’t shoot slugs well for some reason … twist rate for example)? If it’s the second then if you are blessed with an Fx Impact it is not beyond the wit of man to create a sub 12ft/lb, tin slug, barrel liner? Cost and economics being a limiting factor. The marketing blurb on the Fx Hybrid slugs package suggests that by hollowing out a large percentage of their slug they can benefit from the external dimensions of the slug shape (ballistic coefficient for example) whilst reducing mass sufficiently to work in a greater range of air rifles. Something like tin would reduce mass without the need to hog so much material from the slug. Just to let you know, I don’t sell tin for a living ;-)
Other metal characteristics come in not just weight, Tin in particular is used but in "slug" shape it's just far too hard to obturate into the rifling will still ricochet dangerously and also far to hard for pest control work.
Hi mate, I'd expect to see a little improvement dropping them to around 780ish, flyers notwithstanding the bulk of the group at 45 was barely any bigger than at 25, gives the impression they haven't stabilised by 25 and that is likely to be because of the high speeds.
The old Prometheus plastic skirted ammo worked well but pathetic at sub 12 ….. so the “green” skirts plastic (made from oil)and the tips coated with copper (strip mining) neither are environmentally friendly
Do they group with fac rifles? Thing is I totally agree with your comments regarding how plastic will degrade over years.it doesn’t matter if you change from lead as you create another pellet/slug that will not be good for the ground.not sure what the Soloution is? Just another step to stop shooters really like it always has been.not allowed a lead pellet soon but will be ok for my son and daughter at school to use the same toilet? Some people have serious mental health issues……but good test again Thankyou
I'd be inclined to think they will be worse at even higher speeds. Looking at the shape and where the mass of the pellet is,definitely slower would be better. However the biggest issue is the inconsistent build of them. Regardless of speed unless they are pressed together consistently we are on to a loser. Sadly I know very little about plastics,other than they are a huge problem. I do know a few people that might be able to offer some potential solutions to a decent lead free offering though.. we will see 😉
I like rockets or a pointed style all lead has the best penetration and stability. These pellets are too light and speedy and FPE will drop tremendously at 30m. They're too long as well but too light. Predator GTO's or green labels pellets are better options!Other options are way better! Been doing this over 40 yrs!
Pretty much nothing tbh. There will always be the odd rifle that can get a half decent group with the lead free offerings but it's a rarity. Im Going to do a build later in the year to see what has to be done to reliably and consistently shoot lead free. But even if I can make it group to an acceptable level, there's still the massive increase in likelihood of ricochet, over penetration and barrel wear,without considering the costs to swap out barrels etc to do it properly and safely,let alone the massive costs of the lead free ammo.
Have you figured out whether or not they are actually biodegradable yet? I'm trying to get on their website and determine what the material of the plastic is made of but I cannot find much
I recently bought a gamo wildcat whisper rifle and have been using gamo tomahawk expansion 7.56g pellets. Such garbage. Yesterday, after a good rain the fields were soaked and so I set my Target down in the fields that way I could see where the pellets were hitting when missing the target. Well... Is interesting because some of them were hitting like 3 ft to the fucken the other side. If that kind of s*** is that bad then that is fucking dangerous. Just ridiculous..
Bio degradable plastic is a marketing term. It does not work in nature. These plastics need a commercial compost facility to be degraded. They will rub down to micro plastic just like their "bad" oil based plastics. As for the pellets I was very surprised about the first two shots. I could barely hit an A4 sized piece of paper 10 meters away with mine through an FX Dreamline.
There is no good and there will be no good alternative for lead pellets, period. Also not for .22lr rimfire ammo. I bought for almost 1000 pounds JSB Exact, Jumbo and King pellets the last months to be sure that i can continue with airgun shooting😁Also good to have the same batch number. I won't touch them as long as i still can buy lead pellets. I thought better to spend money on lead now and have fun later than dump my HW's, FWB, Diana's and S410 in the lake or shooting alloy and plastic with them. Cheers!
Of course there will!!! In every aspect of designs for anything man has found a better alternative.progression….but it needs characteristics such as lead!…not even sure why they want a ban? Unrealistic
@@andyfry745 There are no metals with the same characteristics on this planet Andy, and that what comes close, like bismuth, is expensive. Progress is per definition not always better, that we find out the hard way every day. If there won't be a ban on lead, than i still have pellets for a very good price because everything is only getting more expensive.
Plastic.. I'll never use it with any pellet in my guns.. barrels are designed for a soft metal. In my imagination I can see the rifling in a barrel stripping plastic if ever single pellet building up quickly and like you say if it's not cleaned meticulously every few shots then it's going to cause at least inaccuracies in shooting and at worst a blockage in the barrel
Not sure how eco friendly these are given that copper is poisonous to trees. Any missed or through shots lodged in a tree will do harm. Hammer a copper nail in to a tree and it will kill it in a matter of months. Plus the last thing the environment needs is more little pieces of plastic littering the countryside. There is no such thing a biodegradable plastic. I bought some Gamo for 10m shooting .177. Nice for making clovers or smiley faces. No consistency in point of impact.
*Gamo is one of the worst pellet manufacturer, change my mind.* _I have over 50 different tins of .177 pellets and most of my regrets are labeled Gamo._
good watch .. Thanks .. It'll be all right if we move to 6 inch holes in the HFT /FT targets .. I can see the future having discussions after a course of how we all missed that "killer 3 inch reducer at 15 feet"
😂🤣 I think they might have been 38% more accurate than me doing a lefty throw of a pebble at the target
I remember Ted’s holdover testing .177 pellets at speed and found out that they were unstable at the kind of speeds produced here. If you could reduce the power and speed of these the groups may start to close up.
Title of the video?
@@LowkeyAirgunner no idea. It was ages ago.
I remember that, as well.
It’s a great video.
Dude, do you even know what speed they’re shooting at here this is a sub12 foot pound air rifle lol? It’s not going to go past 1000fps
Interesting test,They remind me of the old Prometheus,they were shit too 😂,penetration isn’t as important as energy for a humane kill which is why many hunters prefer .22 for that extra punch,totally agree,if they’re not degradable plastic they’re far worse then lead.
I was going to ask the same question. Are these suitable if they just pass through without transferring energy?
Do you remember the Sabo ? Had to put them in a pen thing to insert into the barrel
Yea me too, can’t beat lead, The “titan blacks” where shite too (lead with plastic jacket) but better than the Prometheus, these fancy pellets have always been crap and always will be.
If you have a Magnum Rifle you can use a .177 heavy pellet. It Will be more or less the Same that a not heavy .22.
If they made them out of cellulose plastic it might be worth while.
The batch number in the base of the pellet is a nice idea. I like the idea of them being made in batches. From a business point of view they can either be mixed and sold at a cheaper price or sorted in factory and sold for a more premium price.
I can see people enjoying sorting each batch number for different type of airguns.
"The batch number in the base of the pellet is a nice idea."
Do we *know* that the numbers relate to a production batch? From what I know about plastic manufacture, (and wearing my "pedant" hat) I would guess that the number relates to the cavity number of the mould. (Probably producing 13+ pellets from a single cycle of the injection moulding machine.) Still worth sorting and seating the metal core as discussed in the video though.
So plastic will be 5 times more expensive than lead. Must mean somebody is buying up plastic shares.
Nice review. I tested a variety of lead free pellets for Gun Mart / Shooting Sports some years ago and they were pretty dodgy back then, nothing has really changed, regardless of the materials used. Gotta love the likes of H&N, RWS, GAMO etc for tooling up and trying, but if you can't get reliable, repeatable accuracy then it is just wasted R&D.
I'm curious what results any of the manufacturers actually got before signing them off as good to go..?
@@tillysgunstocks given the costs of tooling, I'd love to know where these pellets sell in large enough numbers to make that investment worthwhile.
No such thing as wasted R and D because we are still having the conversation. 😅 cheers to the engineers that got nasty emails for two weeks on a minor design issue inside of quality trials.😊
I remember back in the 80's there were plastic skirted pellets called Prometheus and Sabo. Accuracy was an issue due to plastic build up in the rifling.
I think the numbers on the base is the position on the injection mould. If some are misformed and all the same number ,they can identify the mould that may need attention.
Good shout on the numbers. Plastic aside, they felt pretty well formed on loading. Seems mostly the tips aren't pressed in evenly which seems mad as I'm sure they would have a press to do it evenly 🤔
@@tillysgunstocks I know when I worked at a contact lens factory the injection moulding machines put a number on each mould. If all the lenses that failed the optical measurement test came from the same mould number they knew that mould needed reworked. .
I would assume its the same. I'm sure Prometheus pellets had numbered bases at one time too.
Yes this is common practice in the injection moulding industry. In multi cavity tools, each cavity has its own number. If there's an issue with mouldings from a particular cavity it's easy to identify which cavity is causing the issue. This problem cavity can then be "blanked" and production can continue using the good cavities. The bad cavity can then be repaired after the production run. It might be interesting to check cavity numbers before shooting, this might identify problem pellets when checking pellet/accuracy issues. If the "flyers" are all from say cavity 6 and 10, you could sort them prior to use much like we do when weighing lead pellets.
Dis korrek
no. its the grains , the higher the number the more stopping power and slower the speed,
Here's a theory, barrels are relatively rough inside, lead fills the imperfections (hence the need to lead-in a barrel), I've a feeling the plastic leaves minute fibres in the rifling (as you found when you pulled through the barrel afterwards) which can break off and affect the next pellet that passes over. They may perform differently in an FX smoothtwist barrel. The over-penetration doesn't bode well for humane kills either.
I reckon the same mate, it was really wispy fluff that pulled through so likely the first few were reasonable then as it fouled up got progressively worse.
I dont like to get too into the pest control stuff on the channel, but the steel tipped plastic pellets are still the recommended for dispatch of trapped mink in the uk and also quite popular elsewhere on quarry that is scaly.. not tails,actual scales 😉
I agree with you whole heartedly.
I've been shooting for 52 years and have found that once I have tested for the most accurate pellet in a particular rifle then that's the only pellet I ever use in that rifle. This has a number of benefits; firstly, the barrel becomes leaded-in to that pellet and accuracy gets better and more consistent the more I shoot (even changing to another brand of lead pellet can change the leading-in of the barrel).
Secondly, I very rarely have to adjust my scope, so my aim point is consistent and my hold-over at various ranges becomes second nature.
Thirdly, accuracy is the key to hunting. If you hit the kill zone you will dispatch that creature. I always use 'field target' pellets for hunting as they tend to be the most accurate.
I don't know what I'll do if a lead ban is brought in because it will probably mean that none of my guns will be as accurate as they are now.
Just my opinion and welcome any thoughts. 👍
@@jeremymanning2132 Even sticking to one brand will occasionally throw up a flyer, possibly when a bit of lead comes loose from the rifling, which is when it's time to clean it and start again. My worry about the lead free is the over penetration - yes, accuracy is king, but a hard lump of metal which hasn't lost a lot of energy in the quarry will have a lot of energy left to damage anything it hits if it ricochets. I only shoot rats in the chicken coup these days, and would rather the lead stopped in their head....
@@bobthebarsteward
I can see your point if you are rat shooting in a livestock building, not a good idea to leave bits of lead or other metal/plastic lying around for chickens to ingest.
Most of my hunting is done at 30 to 50 yards, hence very rarely does the pellet leave an exit wound with a sub 12ft/lb rifle.
With regard to fliers, true, they do occasionally occur, but far less often with good quality pellets like AA Diabolo Field or Weirauch FT Exact etc. To be honest, if I get a flier, it's normally down to me and not the gun or pellet.
Thanks for the feedback. 👍
@@jeremymanning2132 Just stockpile your favourite pellets....I have thousands of mine 😉
Interesting as always. Thank you for doing all this pellet testing. On the subject of lead / plastics - last time I checked lead was a natural element in different concentrations. Plastics are chocking the world in a much shorter time than lead. How long have we been using lead for bullets, pellets and shotgun cartridges, pipes etc.
I like any excuse to get out the workshop and shoot mate, I really enjoy trying out the various pellets and things.
Plastic is a much bigger and immediate problem than lead ever will be, it just never goes away,just gets smaller.
Even with these spent cases, what am I supposed to do with them now? Recycle them? They will just end up in landfill. I get the irony that I bought them,but it was a good medium to use for a plastics rant...😉
my thoughts exactly.
@@andrewanderson3472 nothing has died from lead poisoning from a bullet still in their body. My relative had a shotgun pellet in his hand for over 70 years lots of gun dogs have pellets in them. There are veterans with bullets in them. This lead ban came from lead in waterfowl. This could be solved by only shooting steel over water.
Plastic is a by product of oil - ergo plastic is a multi "squillion" dollar global income source - for the very small amount of elitist globalists who control the worlds oil income and profits. The globalists, through their propaganda machine, the Mainstream Media, have brainwashed the worlds population into believing that lead can get into the food chain, and lead to lead poisoning in humans and wildlife. I'm seventy five, and have been eating game and wildfowl all my life ????. They started with anglers and made them use lead free weights, then they moved onto the wildfowlers, and I have just found out that one of the big shooting estates in Yorkshire has now gone totally " non toxic " shot ! which prices the working man out of the equation. But hey Ho !! - The Armies of the world still shoot each other with copper jacketed lead and "environmentally safe " depleted Uranium ! Just by way of analogy, there are millions of people world wide who still believe that you can overcome global warming by throwing money at it ? Propaganda !!
@@petergoodman7805Exactly true and don’t forget the fear of the ignorant. 😏
I tried them recently and not one of my guns, Pcp's, springers or a gasram liked them.
Plus if we're talking eco friendly then, as you say, plastic is worse than lead.
In my opinion they are a marketing gimic to try and cash in on the current green trend!
Myself prefers lead and the softer the lead the better it kills as it causes a bigger wound channel as it dumps all its energy in the area that it hits unlike pellets that penetrates to deeply
Mate, (I'm from the US, so I get a real kick out of sayin' that. LOL) Gamo equates with Crapo, when it comes to their pellets. Don't be surprised when you get bad, inconsistent results. I keep hoping that someone will prove, concerning that particular brand, that the consensus among airgunners is wrong, but it never seems to happen. If it weren't for the newbies that don't know any better, I don't think they would even have a market for their pellets, honestly. I'd like to point out that, because I'm a bit of an old fart, I have been trying out these two piece, non-lead and plastic, hybrid, speedy as hell, gonna save the world from lead poisoning "pellets"/"bits of excrement" since the 1980s when the Prometheus brand was introduced. Trust me when I say that no significant advancements have been made. It apparently is very hard to produce a projectile, from a SINGLE material, that is free of voids and is of a consistent density to produce tight groups at appreciable ranges. When you try to BOND two differing materials, in a consistent manner, to achieve the same goal, I have come to think it isn't practical at a reasonable cost. IMHO SYS (Save Your Shillings), Mate. (I really love that term of endearment!) One other thing to be aware of is, here in the US where we get to run ++++12 fpe guns if we like, the plastic causes a lot of fouling at high velocities. I appreciate your efforts and you spending your money to do these tests saves me from spending mine, so I thank you for spending your cash to educate the rest of us. Cheers!
I've tried these out of lower-powered co2 carbines and handguns and they were very erratic as far as grouping. I wonder if they'd group better out of my pcps or pneumatic pump guns? I also had high hopes for these and I paid way too much for them. Thank you for the video/review. 👍👍
The chemist that creates a biodegradable, lead free, accurate, affordable pellet that works just as good as lead, will become instantly rich and famous. But we aint that smart folks. We cant store antimatter either... But good video.
If they are banning lead pellets why don’t they try making them out of the same material as the split shot used in fishing just a thought !
I'm not sure about the availability nowadays, but Winchester MVP round nose pellets are lead-free and shoot very well out of a wide range of my airguns. If you can score a tin of them, try them out. 👍
Good video with interesting results started too good then thay started to open up, just shows how reliable the quality lead ammo is.
These pellets came out in the 1980's and were called Promethius. I used them and they were very good, then they vanished?!
I bought a box. They were terrible and expensive.
Hello Sir,
Thank you very much for going to the lengths you do, in your quest to find a good pellet. Everything you do and say makes great sense, and I'm very impressed if I may say, at how thorough you are.
I quite agree, I don't see, on the face of it, the sense of making pellets out of plastic, when like you say, it poses one of the biggest threats to our environment.
I really enjoyed your film and thank you.
Your air rifle looks like a really smart piece of kit. With great respect, the traditional air rifle, walnut stock, edges it for me. Nonetheless, it looks a beauty, and I hope it serves you well, my friend.
Hi mate, thanks for being a part of the channel 👍
I'm in the fortunate position that I work on this stuff every day so get to see what's good and what's not. I really enjoy just being out and trying stuff out but if it means I can help you make a better informed decision on something then that's even better.
There's lots more planned for the future, I'm only just getting started really 😉
I do like a bit of walnut myself but the laminate always looks cool,especially on film.
I'll be upgrading the Anschutz shortly to something a little different, keep an eye out for it 😉
was shooting Prometheus pellets when i was a kid (in 60's now). Nothing much has changed.
what was the velocity of these pellets , did they exceed the sub12lbft limit ?
They were doing just under 900fps. Given the lack of weight (5.56grain) that barely scraped 10ftlb.
It would be basically impossible to get these to run even close to 11.5 ftlb .thy would be well over 1000fps to do that and they lose the velocity so quickly they would be even less stable downrange than at the 7-800fps range of our usual sub12 lead ammo.
The only hybrid pellet I've tried is the RWS power ball which is included with the RWS sample packs. It's stil a lead skirt but has a coated steel head. I tried them out for a bit of amusement but actually found them to be quite accurate.
Im sure I remember thoben doing un choked barrels for a very similar pellet called Prometheus late 80s early 90s I remember them because they where crap and left plastic in the barrel
Interesting as always 😉.
Zan have released a new lead free slug. No .177 yet. Soon though 🙂.
I'm looking forward to trying them when they arrive. Don't know wether any of my barrels will have a fast enough twist rate,but im looking for something faster for the slugs
@@tillysgunstocks apparently Kral barrels like slugs after a bit of work.
I'm trying to get a 4.5 Kral barrel. 580mm long.
Worth a try plus it contributes something to Turkey.
@@garymurray5361I have a kral. What work needs to be done to make them slugger barrels?
I purchased accupels when they first came out and gave them away after about 20 shots, thought they were awfully inaccurate for the hype. Then I tried the Prometheus plastic waisted and found too many ''wire threads'' in the barrel so gave those away too. Eventually I bought a tin of very cheap lead pellets that were triple waisted and were incredibly accurate.
guess its down to the gun i used accupels in a pcp bsa superten wiyh rea; good accuracy bhav ing said gthat some of the best i have used were wasp pellets at 5.6 not 5.5 good groups and good knockdown on rabbits out to 25
Just your barrel.
Accupel are brilliant.
5p sized groups at 50 yards without a problem.
I'll be sticking with JSB Hades for dealing with rabbits here thanks.
Gamo Lethal will actually fit into cartridges of some CO2 pistols, although at first they appear too long, like other ‘hunting’ pellets.
They work nicely with Crosman Vigilante - the lighter weight being a perfect match with the lower powered CO2 - gives faster speed and a harder punch.
I always found plastic pellets foul the barrel and found spaghetti plastic spirals in the barrel when cleaned out, this affected the accuracy badly.
The best way I can describe the remnants in the barrel is its like cat's fluff. Really fine wisps of it 😆
I am a newbie in air weapons, my half a century of shooting being with carbon burners until very recently, but...
Might be pushing the over design velocity... they are effectively a sabot projectile, but the sabot staying with the business end means that really fine accuracy is not likely as it depends on every sabot being identical and placed exactly the same relative to the actual projectile. The distortion of the plastic bit on leaving the barrel will never be the same twice in a row.... a bit like having a barrel with a less than perfect crown. With such tiny projectiles the smallest inconsistency will have a big effect on target. Try them a bit slower, and maybe from a smooth-bore.... they should stabilise OK without twist and might in fact be more accurate that way. Discarding sabots are very accurate from smooth-bores (used in tanks these days, but the actual projectiles have fins) but these little fellows stay connected, so a bit of a different scenario.
Interesting Video... 🙂
Well those Suck bring back the old Prometheus Pellets I used them decades ago in my springers and never had problems like that they were very accurate out to 35yrs no problems
Im am sorry but ok remove the led witch will be bad for us all but don’t replace with plastic that will be even worse micro plastic is already getting into the food chain we need a valid salutation and plastic is not the answer. Great content we need to come together as a community to find solutions
Great video and incredible information. I did look at some research from the State of CA about MPs in raptors but it was inconclusive as to toxicity. Raptors and predators that eat wounded or dead game birds or varmints shot or killed with lead pellets, ether from a shotgun shell or any other form of lead ammo (like a .77 or .22 Cal projectile) only need ingest a micro dose of lead to die a very painful and slow death, from which most cannot be saved unless found very early on. I am desperately searching for lead-free .177 Cal. ammo for pest control around my house because I prefer to feed the carcasses to the other wild animals and do not want to contribute to lead poisoning, nor have lead waste in the yard due to misses. Just a little more info on the trade-off between lead and plastic. Statistics and field info will show lead to be highly, highly toxic and the worst of the two. Thanks again for a great video!
Hi mate, if you absolutely need lead free(as it sounds you do) the jsb versions are almost acceptable at shorter ranges and low wind. They are made on the dies of the heavies, but ofcourse much lighter. They are probably the best of the pb free from my testing 😉
@@tillysgunstocks , Thanks again for your advice. Just purchased some JSB GTO Non-Lead .177 Pellets that will be here early next week! I'll let you know how they go. I do some volunteer work building nest boxes and installing them for bluebirds and other secondary cavity nesters (song birds that nest in cavities but do not make their own) and am an avid birder. However, where I live, two invasive species; English (House) Sparrows and European Starlings, out-compete the native species through ultra-aggressiveness and by having more broods per nesting season than the natives. They will simply go into the nest boxes and either kill the parents on the nest, or kill the babies, then the parents (if they happen to still be in the nest box, then nest in the boxes themselves. I mainly use the air rifle to even up the odds, especially around my house. Then, the culled non-native species get recycled back to the predators around the area, thus the need for the lead-free pellets. Looking forward to trying the new ammo. Thanks again.
gonna throw my favorites in the hat too: fritzcell eisenherz (you get near identical looking ones from other brands too but those are the ones i can talk about) - very consistent outta my haenel 303 in terms of speed reasonably hard hitting they make about 10mm into solid old furniture wood about twice what a lead one would do outta the same rifle. i can hit a bottlecap with them at 5yrds with ironsights...
@@tillysgunstocks, just a quick note of thanks on that recommend for the lead-free JSB pellets. Much lighter than I have ever shot but very accurate and stopping power from expansion is excellent. I have literally a cheap, pump air rifle from Walmart with a $28 scope and I’m consistently making one-shot lethal hits at up to 35 yards and in all conditions except super windy weather. Thank you again for this recommendation. I’ve never had an ammo/firearm match so well in terms of immediate use as I have after getting the JSB pellets, literally from the first shot. Exceptional. Much obliged.
These remind me of Prometheus Pellet from the 1980's these ones dont look as good as them as they were 'spitzer' shaped and more pointy, useless at long range but really good penetration up close - but I would only use them in a British barrel like a BSA or a Webley, as have seen them separate and stick in the barrels of some continental guns not only that the clearance between the skirt and the metal head of the slug was very small so not much margin for error and the 1st batches were made of steel! the other composite slug I remember was the sussex sabot, i never liked those either as accuracy went down the toilet once u have used them a while as they left plastic in the bore too..
I havent shot my left handed hw80 in nearly 30 years I still have it, so am old fashioned lol, I dont see how plastic is eco friendly, I would rather stick to lead rather than plastic going up the barrel having seen stuck Prometheus pellets in a barrel of an old leather washered .22 hw35 back in the day that used to diesel a lot... , the 2 piece pellet had split leaving the skirt in the tight barrel, accuracy suffered after I got it out so had to scrub and polish the bore to restore it, I reckon it was down to a tiny film of plastic left last half of the barrel as the it was choked,
Seems like if you are gonna go green.. then just get sone good quality produced lead free standard pellets
they performed about as bad as i expected, so far i've yet to see any lead free pellets actually perform decently out after 10 yards..
Btw Zan slugs have just dropped some lead free slugs :P pricey but worth a look as an alternative to the plastic-but-not-fantastic junk offerings out at the moment
You need to do at least 5 pellets or more per group to determine whether they are grouping tightly or spread wide to then be able to zero the scope.
Cracking job.
Completely agree on your thoughts.
Plastic shouldn't be used for this.
What are your thoughts about full copper pellets ?
Or steel ?
They look injection moulded, that's what the numbers are for. Need micrometer for size and accurate weight per cavity number to get mode, median and mean.
Thing is lead isn’t biodegradable either, to get any sort of group with non-lead pellets. I have to clean the barrel every 10 shots ! They are getting there, but at the moment they’re useless for me as a target shooter..
I'm waiting to see if someone tries the opposite with some sort of FMJ the technology is well matured, copper outer would run on the rifling get bullet shaped high BC and a hollow point they just need to find a new squishy core that isn't bloody plastic, like a wax or resin full of some sort.
Would still be more expensive.
Lead in air rifle pellet form really isn't that much trouble just sits around with oxide on I petrol going into the air was terrible, hopefully there will be work arounds for target clubs by just have more catcher targets and then on the plus side the lead can go back to the scrapyard for recycling into more pellets.
Do you think barrel companies should be doing more to make lead free pellets work, because at the moment they don't do they.
Could it be that the plastic skirts are coming away from some of the projectiles mid flight causing inaccuracy. Some of those holes looked smaller than others on your paper, maybe try superglue on a few pellets and see if it makes a difference.
*Most of Gamo best sellers are based on the novelty aspect...*
People are big fans of the red fires but to me they just look like bad quality polymags.
I never had the chance to try the Lethal's yet but for the price I've seen them in the past it will most likely never happen.
_I still need to test them tho... Them fancy penetrators are so expensive I won't shoot them 🤣_
J ai deja testé ces plomb avec une carabine emitations blak ops 19.9 joule ces plombs avec la jupe en plastique lethale sont puissants je percé a 50m sans lunettes
I have found the lighter the pellet, the more it will corkscrew in flight at higher velocities and it will make your groups erratic. The Gamo Redfire pellets have the same qualities and accurate out of my smooth bores.
Larger bore pellets. .22 and above tend to flip after they come out of barrel a high pressure blast if air going faster than pellet will flip it. I have a hassan .25 and after I put a donny fl moderator( some call supressor) prevents pellet from flipping around and more accurate plus quieter. The main point of a moderator is accuracy
while lead is legal I'm sure we will see many chancers like these wasters from gamo, designed for close shooting i bet. Great point re the micro plastics and yes wild life is sure to nibble that pellet over lead as i doubt the copper/metal tip stays intact so potentially wildlife with broken teeth too. pellet catchers at the club is the future and that means lead will be available so no panic just yet.
Very light to be effective in pest control
would imagine plastic would deform under pressure however hard it is causing unstable flight trajectory.
Even the 'biodegradable' plastic isn't very biodegradable. It only degrades in the environment of an active compost heap. (PLA aka Poly Lactic Acid)
Plus it's impossible to print something perfectly round
@@mikekaaeah9156 I've 3D printed pellets with PLA. Not perfect but accuracy is pretty decent within 50 yards. The penetration is insane since I've combined it with 1 inch steel finishing nails. Goes through one side of a fire extinguisher that even a 9mm handgun can't do with a single shot. This is out of a 30FPE .22 air rifle.
They flyers might come from too high speed, since with the little weight they might fly into transsonic speeds and tumble from time to time due to little variations. Did you try lowering the power when using these hybrid pellets?
Btw.: I would consider making your own ammo type, like e.g. some type of copper/bronze slugs with the help of a small hydraulic press. It is some work to do, but it might be the best choice as long as there is no environmentally friendly "biopolymere/mild steel" hybrid pellets.
Iv'e watched the development of lead free pellets with interest over the years; and once again they are not up to any kind of standard. I think that the plastic needs to be nearly as hard as lead to grip the bore? For they are going down the barrel far too fast- possibly not gripping the rifling as well as harder materials. Just a thought! Remember they will only be needed when shooting near food stuffs or if the animal is going into the food chain (rabbits are shot in the head will this count?) this is all up to B A S C and other bodies, in the future. BUT remember that they jumped the gun with Wildfowling, a year before before any one was really ready. So to all you shooters out there STOCK UP ON YOUR FAVORITE PELLETS.
Well I won't be spending any money on those then! I bought my pellets in bulk about 4 years ago as I was told there would be issues and the prices would go through the roof. I have enough at 74 years of age to see me out. I've saved about £6 per 500 tin average (.177 and .22) on current prices.
These pellets are not new I used them in the early eighties in a 22 hw 35. They were called Prometheus. I still have some and they were definitely more accurate than the gamo you are now using. Phil
There is no such thing as bio-degradeable plastic. Despite the commercial claims, the plastic is still the same, only the solution element dissipates faster than on the regular plastic. So, the bio-degradeable plastic creates micro plastic particles faster than regular plastic does. BUT, you can make actually bio-degradeable material that is as good as plastic, using wood fibers such as paper or cardboard. Adding a bit of candle wax coating, the end product is water proof and forms better air seal than lead. Depending on the pressure where the shape is formed, it can hold as much pressure as lead pellet. They shoot fairly heavy slugs with hard powder loads using paper mash wads.
Ahh the good old eco friendly plastic. And lead a natural element.
First time ive heard of plastic being eco friendly
Blooming hell 5k views in 2 days rock on Tommy
It's been a busy weekend on the channel mate. I'm so stoked anyone would give up their time to watch me messing around.. 😆
@@tillysgunstocks did you get to the show this weekend I went to get another katran from Chris but .22 flavour this time
Nice review and well put together, don’t know why you are so impressed with penetration, a six inch nail and a hammer has good penetration but you can’t shoot them through an air rifle either.
I’ve spent a fortune on lead free ammo over the last 18 months and it’s all crap and renders my guns useless, unless your happy shooting tin cans at 10m. I’m not happy unless I’m trying to hit 24mm chalk discs at 45m. So basically my guns are scrap in 5 months time.
Personally I have no interest in the penetration characteristics of an ammo. Quite the opposite infact,much prefer to dump the energy in expansion. However these and the Prometheus type pellets are actually recomended in the UK for humane dispatch of trapped mink as they need that penetration.
Cheers for watching 😉
@@tillysgunstocks I’ve been shooting competitively for over 40 years from air, Rimfire, centrefire and clays once twice a week never heard of Prometheus to be used on Mink. I used them back back in the 80’s in my HW35 and I know they will go through the dogs enamel water bowl and get you a thick ear from the old man, but that’s all they’re were good for. Every days a learning day. (Pembrokeshire, Wales)👍👍👍
Totally unsuitable for pest control and plastic all over the environment. Brilliant progress!
Any pellets will or won't be accurate depending on each specific rifle and barrel etc.
transonic speeds cause instability unless you change the pellet cross section
I really hope they get it right - manufacturing a non-lead and biodegradable pellet/slug that has accuracy.
I'm sure in time it'll happen,right now it's unlikely 😞
Objects traveling at transonic speed (just under/over the speed of sound) will lose stability behave in unpredictable ways. Especially if the object wasn't that aerodynamic to begin with. This is because even though the object itself isn't traveling at supersonic speed it may still create localized supersonic airflows around it. Aviators learned about this phenomenon the hard way back in the 40's. It was known by arms designers long before that.
Try a weaker (or stronger) rifle or pistol. There might have been some leftover barrel gunk that slowed down the first two shots.
Am guessing that the plastic is clogging the rifling up I had the same problem with Prometheus pellets seemed to work better in very low powered co2 guns.. they were that bad I got little coils of plastic out the rifling.. in a nutshell didn’t really work for me…
Wow nice shot. Spot on mate
Could you please try them out on a smooth twist barrel like a fx impact?
Would be interested to see how they perform
Hi! Which GOOD pellet would fit my gamo p430 pistol? I Mean, good pellet like "Gamo lethal"
Wont the plastic build up in the barrel with friction and heat causing plastic particles to possibly melt onto the inside of the barrel?
I've never seen any of the gamble poet that were worth a crap as far as accuracy
Wait..... how is plastic better for the environment I'm sure it's worse. Copper is less inert and extremely toxic to invertebrates, you literally use it to wipe aquariums clean.
These are much, much worse. A classic case of trying to fix something that wasn't broken. Lead is salvagable with a metal detector on high sensitivity settings too, and actually have a salvage value to motivate a clean-up
The impact looks like they are hitting sideways, like the pellet its unstable/tumbling in flight.
Don’t matter what you do, won’t replace the lead, nothing else is good enough
38% more accurate than what? We may ask. Throwing rocks? Using a sling? 😏🤷♂️ good review mate. 👍👏 And what’s the point of using a fancy complicated pellet as inaccurate as these are!! What a waste of money. 😏
Have you tried predator poly mags .. my fx maverick loved them at all ranges didn’t like anything else… being pointed plastic tips it surprised me out to 45 yds.
I've got predator poly mags, and the short versions,aswell as the h&n red scorpions for some ballistic gel testing. It'll be fun to see what happens on impact... 😉
Looks like these pellets started keyhole-ing really badly. Most likely getting plastic buildup in the rifling preventing them from getting a good stabilization.
They should make lead free slugs. The light metal should produce slugs at a weight around the level of pellets. So they should shoot at sub 12ft/lb but have the ballistic benefits of a slug. Haven’t seen any .177 slugs that would shoot well, so maybe this is an option.
Science doesn’t work that way…you need stability and mass.lightweight pellets and slugs only work short distances.
@@andyfry745I figured that a tin slug would have a similar weight to a lead pellet and may work at the shorter distances typical of sub 12ft/lb shooting. I’m sure you’re right with the science, but would like to see it up against the odd cocktail of the pellets/slugs in this video.
Ideally we need the mass of the lead ammo. It's definitely possible to build a rig to suit pb free slugs but the twist rates and valving are going to need serious work and it's almost certainly not something that can be done on mass for factory rifles sadly
@@tillysgunstocks sorry, just so I understand …. Do slugs need a particular mass to work (tin is about 40% lighter than lead I think) or are current rifles developed to fire particular ammo (some barrels don’t shoot slugs well for some reason … twist rate for example)? If it’s the second then if you are blessed with an Fx Impact it is not beyond the wit of man to create a sub 12ft/lb, tin slug, barrel liner? Cost and economics being a limiting factor.
The marketing blurb on the Fx Hybrid slugs package suggests that by hollowing out a large percentage of their slug they can benefit from the external dimensions of the slug shape (ballistic coefficient for example) whilst reducing mass sufficiently to work in a greater range of air rifles. Something like tin would reduce mass without the need to hog so much material from the slug.
Just to let you know, I don’t sell tin for a living ;-)
Other metal characteristics come in not just weight, Tin in particular is used but in "slug" shape it's just far too hard to obturate into the rifling will still ricochet dangerously and also far to hard for pest control work.
hmmm. not the best mate . don’t think they would win me the 25 yard bench rest 😂😂
No I make you right there mate. I bet they will get some good content in the ballistic gel though if nothing else..
its not about the environment its about them not wanting us to being able to feed our self's
Tommy, what if you can slow them down to say 750-850. Wonder if the accuracy would improve?
Hi mate, I'd expect to see a little improvement dropping them to around 780ish, flyers notwithstanding the bulk of the group at 45 was barely any bigger than at 25, gives the impression they haven't stabilised by 25 and that is likely to be because of the high speeds.
The old Prometheus plastic skirted ammo worked well but pathetic at sub 12 ….. so the “green” skirts plastic (made from oil)and the tips coated with copper (strip mining) neither are environmentally friendly
Lead is not dangerous when shot out of a gun unless your a rat
It's like playing football with a penny floater.
Gotta love the Gamolitos
Do they group with fac rifles? Thing is I totally agree with your comments regarding how plastic will degrade over years.it doesn’t matter if you change from lead as you create another pellet/slug that will not be good for the ground.not sure what the Soloution is? Just another step to stop shooters really like it always has been.not allowed a lead pellet soon but will be ok for my son and daughter at school to use the same toilet? Some people have serious mental health issues……but good test again Thankyou
I'd be inclined to think they will be worse at even higher speeds. Looking at the shape and where the mass of the pellet is,definitely slower would be better. However the biggest issue is the inconsistent build of them. Regardless of speed unless they are pressed together consistently we are on to a loser.
Sadly I know very little about plastics,other than they are a huge problem. I do know a few people that might be able to offer some potential solutions to a decent lead free offering though.. we will see 😉
An FAC gun will push them supersonic. Ask me how I know. They aren't accurate, too light. These are for kids shooting cans in the back yard.
Drop the reg pressure,
Untill you get them lined up.
Have you tried them in the katran?
I like rockets or a pointed style all lead has the best penetration and stability. These pellets are too light and speedy and FPE will drop tremendously at 30m. They're too long as well but too light. Predator GTO's or green labels pellets are better options!Other options are way better! Been doing this over 40 yrs!
Is there any lead free pellets in .177 that hold any degree of good accuracy ?
Pretty much nothing tbh. There will always be the odd rifle that can get a half decent group with the lead free offerings but it's a rarity.
Im Going to do a build later in the year to see what has to be done to reliably and consistently shoot lead free. But even if I can make it group to an acceptable level, there's still the massive increase in likelihood of ricochet, over penetration and barrel wear,without considering the costs to swap out barrels etc to do it properly and safely,let alone the massive costs of the lead free ammo.
Only problem with plastic is it will eventually wear the barrel
Have you figured out whether or not they are actually biodegradable yet? I'm trying to get on their website and determine what the material of the plastic is made of but I cannot find much
I recently bought a gamo wildcat whisper rifle and have been using gamo tomahawk expansion 7.56g pellets. Such garbage. Yesterday, after a good rain the fields were soaked and so I set my Target down in the fields that way I could see where the pellets were hitting when missing the target. Well... Is interesting because some of them were hitting like 3 ft to the fucken the other side. If that kind of s*** is that bad then that is fucking dangerous.
Just ridiculous..
If anyone has any advice on better pellet let me know
Won’t be getting those anytime soon 😮
Have you tried Baracuda Green yet?
I have through my work,but I've got the ftt green here to test for the yt channel 😉
1.77 air rifles will become expensive ornaments if they ban lead . Its simple physics
Bio degradable plastic is a marketing term. It does not work in nature.
These plastics need a commercial compost facility to be degraded. They will rub down to micro plastic just like their "bad" oil based plastics.
As for the pellets I was very surprised about the first two shots. I could barely hit an A4 sized piece of paper 10 meters away with mine through an FX Dreamline.
There is no good and there will be no good alternative for lead pellets, period. Also not for .22lr rimfire ammo. I bought for almost 1000 pounds JSB Exact, Jumbo and King pellets the last months to be sure that i can continue with airgun shooting😁Also good to have the same batch number. I won't touch them as long as i still can buy lead pellets. I thought better to spend money on lead now and have fun later than dump my HW's, FWB, Diana's and S410 in the lake or shooting alloy and plastic with them. Cheers!
Of course there will!!! In every aspect of designs for anything man has found a better alternative.progression….but it needs characteristics such as lead!…not even sure why they want a ban? Unrealistic
@@andyfry745 There are no metals with the same characteristics on this planet Andy, and that what comes close, like bismuth, is expensive. Progress is per definition not always better, that we find out the hard way every day. If there won't be a ban on lead, than i still have pellets for a very good price because everything is only getting more expensive.
Plastic.. I'll never use it with any pellet in my guns.. barrels are designed for a soft metal. In my imagination I can see the rifling in a barrel stripping plastic if ever single pellet building up quickly and like you say if it's not cleaned meticulously every few shots then it's going to cause at least inaccuracies in shooting and at worst a blockage in the barrel
It doesn't matter what penetrative
Power it has if ain't accurate it'd pointless
Not sure how eco friendly these are given that copper is poisonous to trees. Any missed or through shots lodged in a tree will do harm. Hammer a copper nail in to a tree and it will kill it in a matter of months. Plus the last thing the environment needs is more little pieces of plastic littering the countryside. There is no such thing a biodegradable plastic.
I bought some Gamo for 10m shooting .177. Nice for making clovers or smiley faces. No consistency in point of impact.
*Gamo is one of the worst pellet manufacturer, change my mind.*
_I have over 50 different tins of .177 pellets and most of my regrets are labeled Gamo._