4L60E Comeback No 3-4 After Rebuild - Mystery Solved!
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- Опубліковано 2 кві 2024
- I provide an update on the 4L60E that had the 3-4 neutral condition shortly after I rebuilt it. In this video, I bring in all the transmission components that would be involved directly or indirectly in such a failure, methodically test and evaluate each. I then get into the actual cause of the failure, which may surprise you.
Here's the video showing this transmission's tear down upon it arriving back at my shop: • 4L60E Autopsy: Comebac... - Авто та транспорт
As a 40+ year retired ME who spent his entire career designing and trobleshooting, I constantly look for new channels of merit. I am a new subscriber to yours..excellent content. I also read most comments for potential humor. The mix match friction disks comment did not fail to oblige. I would have not been as kind as you were...but I'm 71 yo and my "kindness" gene was worn out long ago😎
Thank you for the subscription and view, Joseph! Yes, it seems that quite a few folks are under the impression that mixing/matching different thicknesses of friction and/or steels are detrimental to the transmission but fortunately, that's not the case.
Glad y'all got it sorted. It stinks when a simple, cheap new part causes so much trouble and extra time and work, but it's part of the life we live as transmission rebuilders I guess.
Thanks, Kevin...Was a head scratcher for sure, lol. And yes, this is a good glimpse into what we see and experience from time to time.
Hi Nick, great video! When I learn something the hard way I never ever forget! We all knew you were golden!
Thanks, Doug! Appreciate it!
Good info Nick. I would like to say that the beefed up 65E you build for me is working excellent. Getting close to the first fluid change. Thanks again.
Thanks, Nick! Glad to hear it's working well for you. 🍻
I would have complete confidence in any of your builds. I’m a mechanic and recognize your skills and abilities. I used to build the Allison transmissions for the bus company in Saint Louis. I also built a Detroit diesel engine to run the units on a dyno. The boss asked me to build the engine for the dyno. I built the 730 Allison and the 731 Allison. The 731 was controlled by a computer, the 730 was mechanical with a governor and adjustable shift controls in the valve body. The torque converter was also built during overhaul. The internals on both were identical except for the valve bodies and governor was replaced with a speed sensor in the 731. Converter clutch was applied after second gear then after third gear was was applied. 63 degree bevel gears in both units. Yes I recognize you as a great mechanic. Thanks for the great videos and information.
Thank you for sharing, Wilburn! As always, I appreciate the kind words and feedback. Are those transmissions somewhat analogous to Allisons AT545s or LCT1000s or are they completely different in terms of strength, architecture and/or design?
He does do damn good work 👍
They are completely different in design and strength. They are much larger and are used in the full size buses. The smaller Allison, 545. Is used in much smaller vehicles similar to a one ton chassis, bi state bus company used the smaller buses also.
Totally different.
Thank you Nick for posting the mystery. I am about to rebuild my 4l60E after 377k miles. and i have heard about the mass air flow sensor causing isses.
I am now a subscriber. Again thank you for the mystery.
I am also quite impressed about the testing that you perform that a DYI does not have access too. I am sure i can buy the testing block. I do have a vacuum pump.
Thank you for the kind words & subscription, 2Nickles!
Check on eBay as well as car enthusiast sites - you may be able to get the tester itself for under $100.00...Well worth it...The test plates are case by case insofar as whether or not their worth it for the DYIer...If only doing 4L60E/4L80E, they may not be since you'd only be doing one trans and the valve trains that most commonly have problems can be tested with just the little test block/gasket that comes w/the Sonnax tester itself.
The Mass Air flow sensor can cause major problems if it fails to accurately report the air density/flow to the PCM as it's crucial for managing air/fuel ratio and engine output...The PCM also uses that information to control the line pressure inside the transmission, ensuring the pressures being fed to apply circuits are appropriate for fuel being demanded by the incoming air charge. If the MAF underreports, the PCM will under-scale the line pressure rise and that can cause applied element slippage, resulting in premature failure of the transmission.
I too have had an instance similar to this. A carry out 4l60 4x4. Customer calls me the next morning after he'd been up all night installing in the snow storm only to find out he had a what he thought was a dud. I discussed the issue with him after he calmed down drove out to him and started diagnosing. While we were laying under the truck in the freezing cold he says to me "the strange thing is now I don't have a speedometer either" That's when it hit me. He crossed up the 3 interchangeable plugs on the transfercase! Straightened out that issue and I've had a friend ever since.
Great story, man! And thank you for watching...It's amazing how a little few-dollar part can cause so much heartburn and time...Glad that one was a quick fix and didn't require any further work beyond reconnecting the plugs where they need to go.
Sincere thanks for your efforts and helpful info and practice
You're welcome, Sahrawix! Appreciate you watching.
I don’t know for sure about hot fluid testing or having an entire thing heated to operating temperature. before when testing what I was told that combining a solution of mineral spirits and transmission fluid and doing so will change the viscosity of the fluid and mimic a higher temperature. The hotter, the fluid the thinner it will be basically is what I’m trying to say and by making it thinner, you’re mimicking a hotter fluid. And by doing so it can slip through the tiger crevices or possibly cracks if present that cold fluid may not pass through.
Those are excellent points, Jray. May look into the above as you're correct in the possibility of a false positive due to the differences in heating a part on the bench and it working inside the case with fluid circulating all around and through it.
Your videos are perfect brother thanks to share your knowledge and omg this sensor is a bad bod ahahah ! The customer is a great guy wow !
Thanks Basicdetail!
For sure, the customer is a man of integrity.
This is a really nice video
Thanks, man - appreciate the feedback!
Yep, speed sensors & it's wiring caused a lot of problems on the Chrysler A604's, for one example.
One other strange one I read about was a 4L60E, where it would bark the tires on a 1-2 shift, but the other shifts were fine. It turned out the battery was weak, it often needed jumping to start. A good battery fixed the issue.
Interesting...when the 4L60Es bark the tires on the 1-2, it's usually valve body or a broken accumulator spring...
Good vid!
Thanks, Carl!
thanks for the followup !!
You're welcome, Sean.
Thank you for watching!
Awesome!!
Thanks, Robert!
The trans builder up the road pulls the capsule out and plugs the hole so it doesn’t leak. What are your thoughts about that.
I got a question for you Nick if all it was with the speed sensor then why didn't the ECU not giving them a check engine light which should have been P0503 if that was the case .
Good question, Anthony...Simple answer is I don't know...That said, I've learned to prioritize the symptoms over DTCs when the codes don't set and store and see what the evidence gathered during testing and inspection tells me. The speed sensor in this case was certainly reading erratic which is exactly what P0503 intends to communicate.
I purchased kits all the time and they come from the point of sale with mix match clutches in the box actually seal that way in one complete module I don’t know about the manufacture name but material wise they are different. Some of them might be brown some of them might be yellow looking, some of them might be a reddish color but they’re definitely a mix of material and I think brand it might say Raybestos on the package, but it will have Borg Warner clutches inside there and raybestos mix with them
Yep, it's something common place for those in the business, frequent DYI experience or otherwise familiar with transmission building practices and norms.
I’ve heard all the theories though, and I know for sure that when testing and remanufacturing the electronic solenoids testing is done with a hot oil machine according to TPU in Ellenwood, Georgia.
IF Mr. Customer found issue before transmission was removed, approximately what percentage of life would have been lost. I am assuming there is an off the cuff answer since you were able to do a fine tooth comb inspection.
Your vacuum test demonstration was really helpful.
I will now look for a video of any suggestions for a daily driver fully able to tow as needed (I'm rehabbing a 100+ yr old house), and very rare mud play. '07 trailblazer
Hi David, thank you for watching. If the customer found the issue prior to removal of the transmission, no wear or life expectancy reduction would have occurred as the VSS failure resulted in the 3-4 clutch simply coming off vs slipping. VSS will force a mechanical downshift from 3rd to 1st but at highway speeds the feeling is like being in neutral because only the massive disparity in gear ratio compared to actual road speed when in 1st at 30+ mph.
Here's a good video that can help with a 4L60E build for towing: ua-cam.com/video/_JxEWdjnpRc/v-deo.html
This is of a late model vehicle but the only real differences are the presence of the pressure switch manifold assy/MLPS/3-2 control solenoid and valve in the 1993-2008 4L60Es vs the 2009+, as shown.
Let me know if you have any questions.
Excellant vid,Ive got my grandson 96 k1500 4l60e apart for burnt 3-4 clutch .The frictions heated up soo much that they are concave.Performed leak check between shaft and drum and there were leaks,but back to the electronics of it,like the speed sensor issue you found,can a MAF sensor code interrupt signal to produce the correct pressure?Your the 4l60e King in my opinion.
Thank you for the kind words and views, Joe!
You're suspicions about the MAF are correct as it can cause drivability symptoms with the transmission since MAF data is used by the PCM in part to control the transmission, specifically line pressure regulation via the EPC. If the MAF isn't sending correct air charge information to the PCM which then uses that info to calculate engine torque loading, then line pressure rise in the trans won't be correct...If MAF inputs are understated, the PCM may not inform the EPC to increase line pressure timely as the driver accelerates, thus resulting in burnt applied elements, like what you have seen with your 3-4 clutch in that trans you took apart.
@nickstransmissions thanks man ,one thing I may add,ignore these critics.Your viewers know how good you are.
Thanks, man.
I had an issue with a Standard brand camshaft sensor that was causing a starting issue. Ended up having to track down a discontinued GM part.
Thanks for watching, HGA ... Yep, most of these non-OEM electronic parts are junk. Some actually cause significant problems like electrical shorts, damaging important components unrelated to the part they are attached to.
So how did you handle this cost/warranty wise.
Hi jcrackcorn, thank you for watching...The customer and I came to an accommodation that was fair for both parties.
Hey Nick great videos!!! I was hoping you could possibly have a solution to my problem. I am struggling with rebuilding my 4l60e and I've got 0 endplay in the inputshaft when the pump is installed The rear end spins freely the output shaft has about .030 ive even taking the shim behind the torrington bearing on the input drum reassembled still no change im lost and need some help if you could thanks bud
Thanks, Cam!
Check a couple things:
1. The 3-4 clutch pack not fully seated onto the 3-4 clutch hub - each friction is .080" thick so if one hangs up, that would cause a no-end play situation
2. Check the rear thrust bearing on the output ring gear's hub to see if it's upside down - all things equal, that will reduce overall travel space for components by about .040-.050 and cause your situation as well
Thank nick!!!! I will be checking those tonight 👍🏻 appreciate you getting back to me so quickly!
Hey nick ive tore everything back apart today and everything was in order bearing where they should but i am questioning my 3-4 drum assembly it seemed to seat down all the way with about half a .300 of clearance but now thinking back my sprag was almost wobbly around and was able to lift it up a uncomfortable amount is there a chance I installed the wrong steels causing the sprag to hang up and push everything up im just not understanding and trying not to get frustrating at the same time 😂 I definitely dont want to install this thing with no end play and burn up my bearings im going back in the shop tomorrow hopefully i figure it out thanks again have a good weekend
Gotcha and yep - you want to double check and make sure it's right...I know it's frustrating in the moment but the additional time invested now will pay you countless dividends once it's assembled correctly and you're back on the road. The transmission will no longer be a source of your worries.
Have a good weekend, Cam!
My question is how did you bill for the second teardown and inspection.
Thanks for watching, JMC!
I prefer not to discuss specifics related to billing, etc. on YT due to customer privacy considerations.
So since the problem wasn't in the transmission, did he get billed extra?
Thank you for watching, Caliman. For privacy reasons/considerations, I don't want to discuss the particulars of customer billing or payments other than to say the customer is a stand-up guy who has done the right thing.
Looks like the pan got the salvage yard stab and plug.😅
Yep. Thanks for watching, Billy
I have a transmission in a 1994 Mitsubishi Pajero which is a aisin that's hard shifting in 3+4 would love this guy to rebuild it for me but it halfway around the world
Standard makes or did make a lot of OEM parts. Major name brand for like 100 years.
Thanks for watching, Mostlyinteresting. What transmission parts did they make and for which transmissions other than speed sensors? Asking as ive never heard of them insofar as GM transmission electrical components are concerned. Rostra, Delphi and AC Delco are what im familar with...
The reason I ask, is the builder who built mine did that to the transmission I have. So should I leave it out or put it back in! My car is a moderate build about 450 hp.
Interesting...I've never heard of that being done (which doesn't mean anything, I'm still learning about these transmissions) but I'd say it's not something worth doing as an overwhelming majority of those capsules are perfectly fine but leak due to grit/crud/contaminants getting in the way of the check ball sealing in the capsule.
How does your transmission shift? Any problems with it?
@@nickstransmissions it seemed to shift ok, but not quite right. We found that he had pinched the piston seal for the 3-4. Big leak there. The band was wore out. I also found he could have done a much better job building the pump.
Damn, sounds like a hatchet job...The one problem with some shops is they tend to rush through builds to get stuff out the door due to customer/owner pressures...I never rush, nor do I tolerate people trying to rush me. My turn around time is 2-3 days for most builds, except when I need to special order one or more parts or have to locate a hard-to-find part.
Is there a way to prove how a wrong engine sensor (MAF) can lower pressure, cause 3\4 failure?
There may be but unfortunately, I'm not aware of any procedures for that..I do know the MAF can cause transmission command and control issues if it goes bad.
Are you dealing with a similar 3-4 failure after rebuild and having trouble pin-pointing the cause?
There is a simple way.
You must have access to a scanner that can access the PIDs or data.
For example, a 5.3 liter engine, the air flow sensor should read roughy 5.5 to 5.2 mass air flow.
A 6.0 engine is equivalent or should read close.
The reason the sensor cannot read the exact amount is , the sensor is very very sensitive.
Nick has mentioned that a KN filter that is oiled. The oil will get on the fine wire sensor and mis report the air flow. The sensor is a heated fine wire element. As the wire is cooled down by the air flow it equates to air flow.
@@2nickles647how did you come up with 5.5 to 5.2? Idling? If so AC on will change that, alternator charging higher output would change that. I'm not criticizing you, maybe you know a way that I don't..
Wouldn’t the speedometer stop reading? I have a 95 Corvette with a fresh rebuild 4L60E that will intermittently suddenly drop into second even though the selector is in OD or 3rd, it will do 1-2 but not shift 2 to 3 or 4, then it will go back to normal shifting normally.
Hi Yeller95vette, thank you for watching. Speedometer may function or it may not depending on what's going on with the vehicle speed sensor, if anything but when they fail completely, you have no speedo response and no upshift from first gear.
In your case, id put a scan tool on it with live transmission data displayed and see if the pcm is commanding a downshift when it shouldnt or if the transmission is mechanically downshifting. If the latter, that could be valve body or excessively worn 3-4 clutch though you typically "false neutral" as you backshift from third to first when the 3-4 goes out.
You can also remove the auto trans fuse, start it up, put it in "Drive" and see if it will move forward. You be in limp mode which is 3rd gear (and reverse). So if it moves, your 3-4 pack is likely fine and your problem is elsewhere, either electrical, pcm or valve body.
@@nickstransmissions just FYI, I have also just recently replaced the PCM with a reman, after about 109 miles and a half haven’t had an episode so I’m hopeful that maybe that fixed it but it’s just weird. I don’t understand how it show it was in second without the manual valve putting fluid pressure on the # switch
If the PCM was the problem, your odd symptoms would make sense...When those fail, the transmission can and will do all sorts of odd-ball things that otherwise seem to defy explanation...Hope it's good to go for sure.
@@nickstransmissions I really appreciate you taking the time to engage in my conversation. I drove another 130 last night and had no trouble. It’s just weird to me that the PCM could have a sudden issue with the transmission yet everything else works perfectly. So I’m hoping that I have continued good success with the reman PCM. I enjoy your videos. Keep up the good work.
You're welcome, man....These PCMs have a partition specially for transmission control and I have had customers in the past who had the transmission control portion of the PCM fail but the rest function perfectly fine.
Thank you for the kind words!
Hola disculpe no entiendo mucho inglés,y por fin cuál era la falla? saludos
Hi, thank you for watching...The problem was the vehicle speed sensor in the customer's transfer case.
To expand Nick's answer..bad speed signal to computer. On bad speed signal, computer commands transmission to 1st gear only.
Tell more about the .001" oversize valves.what if only one land is worn?what if there's only wear on one side of the bore?which is nearly always the case.i call bs on the thousandths over repair valve.theres a few reasons that approach to restore hydraulic integrity will end in failure
Your comments should be directed at Transgo, Sonnax, STech and others who make them, not those who use them. Go ahead, call them up and tell them you call "bs" on their products (and by extension, their engineers, tech folks and developers of those products). Let me know what they say.
I never had any problems with any OS drop in valves and been using them all for years. I vacuum test any locations where they are installed so if they're too tight I polish the bores until the fitment is good to go. If a drop in valve doesnt seal adequately (bore is simply too worn, sealing integrity still not achieved) I ream it for an OS valve if a reamer and valve is avail. If not, the whole casting gets replaced.
That is funny that somebody thinks using a different manufacturer for the frictions would impact the build. That person is seriously got some OCD going on.
Yep, for sure...Folks that make these comments don't actually have first hand experience building transmissions...They are only regurgitating what they read on-line or hear from others that also lack the same.
Thanks for watching, Mike!
Wow... a BAD SENSOR! 🎉
NICK.. Did you Read a lot ?? ..you are very smooth when you tal, , , . uuuuuuhhhhhhs are scarce ! 😂 I speak/ write two languages and stumble a lot!
Thank you for the kind words, CASTLEDOME KNIVES!
Appreciate the feedback and view🍻
I think a simple heat gun and infra-red temp gun would be fine also.
Yep, a good idea as well...There's def a few avenues of approach one can take to the 'hot' testing of those drums. I do like the idea of getting it up to op temp to see if I can catch one leak when it passed the test at room temp. I'll likely film a version of the 'hot test' in the coming weeks and post to the channel.
I tried it like that a couple weeks ago and never could get the drum up to temp like that. About 135 degrees is all my temp gun would show once I removed the heat gun to test. Only way I've been able to do it is like Nick said: Set the drum in a transmission pan of fluid and heat it on a hot plate. Takes quite a while that way, as aluminum disperses heat really well, but it will eventually get there.
I had some very similar issues because I chose Amazon and eBay to purchase parts things like cam and crank shafts sensors TPS mass airflow bought them dirty cheap because I was saving money versus paying for the AC Delco quality parts and Rostra electronics and I got burnt big time. I actually burned up a transmission two times in a row. Because of Amazon and eBay parts that failed to function properly.
Yep, so many sketch automotive electronics on Amazon, eBay and even auto parts stores...I'm responding to a couple different threads on the various GM/Chevy truck sites I belong to and a few people are battling odd symptoms, including wrong gear starts, no upshifts, etc with these transmissions and aftermarket, non-OEM/Rostra//Delphi/BorgWarner/Bosch solenoids were used. Who knows where they came from (*cough* China *cough*).
Years ago, I installed an Autozone or OReilly's reverse back up light switch into my T56 and it was shorting out my cig lighter fuse while not giving me reverse lights...Went to junkyard, grabbed an OEM sensor...Installed it and all problems went away, reverse back up lights worked.
@@nickstransmissions i’m taking probably 3,-5 gallon buckets of the wheel bearing spindles assembly I guess that’s what they’re called but it’s electronic has a sealed speed sensor or something. Inside of it reluctor is the word I’m looking for I believe. Everyone of them are practically brand new from Autozone and they are bad we put them on the vehicles and the same codes Continue. We continue to have issues with the transmissions because the cars computer is seeing different speed from different wheels. It may think that the front driver wheel is going 35 and the rear Driver wheel is going 55 and it corrupts the Transmission and computer and throws it into mode. You can only go like 15 mph. I’m taking them to the scrap yard. They told me to just throw them away. All of them things rode over here on a container ship together.
Oh there's more baloney here if I ever heard of one, first of all you could have bought aka said so called quality AC Delco part from your car local dealer and it could have just easy still failed on you just as much as any other brand. I generally stay far away from Amazon I only buy from ebay and rockauto and I have bought literally hundreds of part from both and never had any major problems other than a few then fuel pump that failed that includes motorcycle, lawn mowers, scooters you name it, The biggest problem you have to watch out for are defective items that did not pass the original quality control check which did not get destroyed by the scrap yard which usually ends up being resold on black market which is unfortunately that this is an all too common problem, Just like what with counterfeited products getting mixed in with genuine products.
Ever try to change the vacuum control switch located at the top of a transfer case? And then find, after much troubleshooting, that new switch supplied by Advance was bad. "Yeah. We get a lot of returns on those."😱
That's stupid. But of course he didn't have a working spedo in a 4 runner. My pet was shift solenoid failed due to excessive heat
What are you referring to when you say, "That's stupid"?
This customer has a full LS powertrain swap, including a factory PCM and harness. The speedometer was working fine until the aftermarket speed sensor was installed, only then did it begin to act up...
Is there any way to private message you?
Unfortunately, UA-cam did away from the direct messaging function some years back...If you have a question about the 4L60E (either the one in the vid or just in general), simply reply to me here and I'll try to get you answers. If you are looking for transmission rebuilding services, reach out to me via Tahoeyukonforum.com via direct message. My user name there is Nicktransmissions. Please give me your first name if it's diff from your UA-cam handle.
His videos are very good but not great bc he moves too slow and too much detail. His vids are great and helpful.
Thanks...I do tend to provide a lot of detail, perhaps too much at times. I am looking to trim it down some so I can move quicker through tear down videos.
Thank You !
You're welcome, man!