When does the Gray Rock Method Fail? | Narcissism & Detachment Strategy
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- Опубліковано 27 лют 2020
- This video answers the questions: Can I analyze the gray rock method (detachment strategy)? What could cause the gray rock method to fail?
Narcissism:
There are two types of narcissism: With grandiose narcissism we see characteristics like being extroverted, socially bold, self-confident, having a superficial charm, being resistant to criticism, and being callous and unemotional. Vulnerable narcissism is characterized by shame, anger, aggression, hypersensitivity, a tendency to be introverted, defensive, avoidant, anxious, depressed, socially awkward, and shy.
Narcissistic personality disorder is a Cluster B personality disorder in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual. It has nine symptom criteria, five of which are required for a diagnosis.
1: Grandiose sense of self-importance
2: Fantasies
3: Special or unique
4: Requires excessive admiration
5: Sense of entitlement
6: Manipulative
7: Lacks empathy for others
8: Often envious
9: Arrogant attitudes or behaviors
American Psychiatric Association. (2013). Diagnostic and statistical manual of mental disorders (5th ed.). Arlington, VA: Author.
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My trick for the Gray Rock Method is to imagine the narcissist (parent, partner, friend, colleague) as a stranger who starts a conversation at a bus stop or the supermarket: keep it impersonal, superficial, neutral, talk about the weather if you must. Treat them like a total stranger with whom you're not not trying to build a connection. Thank you Dr. Grande for your channel.
Williamcult. Good advise.
Yes.
I chose to just go through a parenting app and do my best to minimize communication and if necessary, write like it is a business deal with someone I do not know…
Great advice. Thank you.
377
Yes
"Narcissists have the ability to weaponize any personal information." Bravo, Dr. Grande, you are spot on!
Reminds me of Borderline Personality Disorder.
I am learning to be a Narcissistic person.
Trump
They weaponized my wanting to read books and study. They not only presented it as a negative personality trait, but told me it was "holding me back." Imagine.
@Katie P. My narcissistic parents very jealous about my business.they jealous about my outstanding sucess
A person so toxic and beyond repair that you need to act as if they don't exist.
Paul Clinton Or beyond repair so far as you are concerned. Their mental health is not your problem or responsibility to fix.
@@kevinhornbuckle They are not mentally ill.
Nice one.
@@mr.vargas5648 that is not actually true
@@candacecasey5634 agreed.
I had someone directly call me out for doing this. They said "Could you please engage with me in this conversation?"
I just responded that I didn't know anything about the subject, and didn't have an opinion.
The narc literally had that look someone gets when they open the fridge, and don't see anything they want to eat.
That's awesome!!!
Xime Ruiz Love it!
Score
Wow, that’s cool. Wondering, if they could pick up that you were grey rocking them, maybe they weren’t completely narcissistic?
@@elleblue07 I think it depends on what the person meant by asking him to "engage" with him. My older brother is a malignant narcissist. He can do about 3-5 minutes of superficial social chatting, and then he really needs to either dominate the entire table/room, or in a larger group, corner a few hapless people, with a provocative, aggressive monologue about whatever he's recently "researched" on the internet, usually politics or whatever his newest "career" is. He's been a construction worker, day-trader, EMT/Paramedic, high school teacher, farmer . . so he basically knows everything about everything and is happiest if his audience includes someone who, based on their experience, training, specialization, advanced study or degree, is silly enough to believe they might know more or better than he does. Then he goes straight into abusive remarks about the company they work for, where they went to school, or even their personal lifestyle. It's as predictable as the sunrise.
His kryptonite is anyone who appears to be paying attention but has no interest in offering a point of view, opinion, belief, anything he can dispute or mock. He'll later call the person dull or dumb, but my guess is that they've been to his puppet show and seen the strings and just know the best thing to do is to "let him finish" so he'll move along.
He truly has no self-awareness, never reflects, and never, ever changes. If he had any sort of authority over a person, like a student or work subordinate, I can definitely see him demanding that person to "engage" with him during a conversation. He believes he's entitled to a reaction from everyone; it's the whole reason he starts a conversation.
Being indifferent to a narcissist’s praise and/or criticism is easy once you realize that anything they say is being said to manipulate you. Once you realize and fully accept that they are full of shit, it becomes easier.
Good response Stacie Hulm!
So true. I change the subject when my mom starts her praise or insults. Both of them are used to manipulate and I wish it hadn’t taken me so long to figure it out.
They're soooo full of shit.
And lies!
I’m not on board to a positive or negative statement towards me. I can sense fake when I hear and see it.
The detachment strategy is the best. The problem is that most ppl don’t realize they’re dealing with a narcissist until it’s too late.
It's interesting you said that. I keep watching this man's videos on narcissists and kept thinking to myself why aren't they getting physically attacked more if there such a pain in the ass to everyone. Wouldn't they be a primary target for violence due to their unlikeability.
ArGonzalez because there’s no way they’re not getting the cops involved (or suing)!
@@elenajohnson6336 Still by sheer numbers of people they affect. You would asume at some point they would have at the very least come into contact with someone who has ASPD. Who would have fucked them up with no care for consequences.
Has Dr grande ever done a video detaling someone with NPD meeting someone with ASPD?
NARCS attract empaths, who generally are not violent. NARCS have an innate sense of who they can push around, and who to leave alone.
@@user1.8.2.I think you could break out of the patterns and confusion you describe with the help of a competent therapist with whom you're comfortable and whose opinion you trust. You can understand better what's happening in your interactions and it will give you some relief.
Whenever I talk to my mother I am reminded of what American cops say to people when they arrest them: Everything you say can and will be used against you.
Jasmin Schlecht Aaannndddd.....this is one of the reasons why we terminate the relationship with them completely when we become adults.
Jasmin are you my sister?🤣🤣🤣
THAT is an amazing thought process. Any time you talk at a narc (you aren't conversing actively with them, thats for sure).....if you say that in your head before you open your mouth.....you may think twice about what info you divulge. I absolutely love this! Theme song included 🎶🎵 "bad boys..whatcha gonna do when they come for you?" 🎶🎵 I am definitely going to be using this phrase before I say anything to him!! Thanks Dr. Grande ha!
May I borrow this idea? It's a perfect summary of how I act before I say anything to the narc "could this be twisted or used in any way against me?"
Ohhh so true... my mother too
Gray rock was extremely useful to me when taking care of my elderly narcissistic mother. I kept everything neutral and boring and never let her see what was going on inside my head. Whenever she resorted to compliments to get a reaction, it was easy for me to remember she wasn't being sincere because she never was. Her compliments were always either backhanded ones or compliments for herself disguised as being for someone else. She had always been very good at pushing my buttons and getting an emotional reaction from me so this was a big change for both of us. Gray rock definitely helped me, the key is to keep it up all the time.
YES they want to get in your head. Surprisingly they already are scary
J. Graham - You have figured out the best method to deal with a narcissistic family member. I see your point and understand your strategy very well. I grew up in a family in which my father and sister are narcisdistic and it was a nightmare until I figured out who they really are. I have maintained no contact since then and it will be a permanent thing. I am glad I am completely detached from them now. Thanks for sharing your experience through a comment. All the best to you.
Sooo true, and I just started to learn how to do it ... being grey neutral and boring... just do grocery make food clean up and let her bla bla bla and leave her puzzled and me free from her toxic soul
Yes they really are shocked when they don't get the usual reaction they are seeking. My husband acted like it was really killing him. He would either start loving bombing for a few minutes or leave. Finally it didn't bother me but it is hard to do when you don't get what you really want. Love and intimacy
Oh, boy, can I relate.
Going grey rock is like closing the supply shop !!👍
Like realizing that the world is better without them.
I've always preferred "grey" to "gray," myself.
Should i share my business/work related information with my narcissistic parents??they are jealous of my success
@@bravodiyemon1757 I wouldn't call myself any kind of expert, but as someone with a similar sort of upbringing myself I have found that a personal commitment to avoiding external validation has been helpful. I ditched social media accounts, and deliberately ignored the feelings I got from praise from people in general (after politely thanking them- my commitment was purely internal).
I think we all want to get positive feedback from parents, but with some parents we crave it because we never really got it. I think it's healthiest to learn to get our validation from inside, instead of continuing to wish someone would give it to us. 🙂
@@barrydworak i think grey rocking is excellent process to nars parents.i personally abused by love bombing and other types of nars abuse for 9 yrs(2012-20).but from 1 month i started grey rock and noticed significant improvement than before.but in the beginning it is extremely difficult to resist narscissistc sociopaths(naropaths) from abusing you.they target your weak points and then try to manipulate you by your secret weapon.but i think being grey rock is a very benefical in the long run also have some risks that we cant avoid.because narcs have no empathy for others.they may pschycically or verbally abusive.but keep in mind that grey rocking a nars or pschypath is just killing their ego and their fragile weakness i mean their image
I liken grey rock to mentally and emotionally walking out of the room when my narcissists start their supply gathering from me. If I don’t respond and remain neutral, they usually burn themselves out. This supply shop is closed and locked. 🙂
Look at me, listen to me, I'll act like a toddler if you don't, me, me, me.....
That's awesome. Unbelievable how many of us are experiencing the same exact thing.
I’ll have to do this with my husband
What if you always do a grey rock and then the person decide to hurt you using what you love the most ex. abuse your pets in your face, What you do?
Victory is mine Get the eff out of there if you are not a minor! I have heard stories of people living in their cars with their children until they were able to find a place to live away from the abuse. I grey rocked until the first chance I came across to remove myself from these people, at home and at work. I vowed to myself as a child that I would not subject myself to abuse as an adult and I’ve kept that promise to myself. Do the same for yourself, please, if it’s at all possible. If your abuser is hurting animals, it might not take much for them to cross that line to physically hurting you, too. My prayers are with you.
I think this has already been invented 2 millennia ago in Ancient Greece and Rome. In the philosophy of the Stoics the primary goal is to cultivate an indifference towards anything not directly under your control. This includes all emotional bs and drama being stirred up by other people, narcissistic or not. There are 3 things in life you do control: what you pay attention to, what your beliefs are, and the actions you take. Your job is to effectively manage those 3 things. Everything else is not in your control and is not your problem. Getting upset because of a toxic person is like being angry at bad weather.
beautifully put sparky
This advice really works but be prepared for rage. This was the reaction of the narcissist that had me in their grip since I was a toddler. Learning to forgive myself for allowing it to continue as an adult when the signs were there all along is very difficult.
"Getting angry at abuse, is victim mentality" is what that sounds like. Should delete that opinion, it's completely absurd and too far from fact.
Daisy Lou Misaki Dondu would you be angry at a snake if it bit you? I would be angry at myself for allowing the snake close enough to bite.... since it is their nature
We have control over climate by collectively, reducing CO2 emissions into the atmosphere which contribute to global warming. Ex.s plant trees, drive electric vehicles, our electric bill has fees for an energy effeciency program, install solar panels, and moderate your home usage of electric power.
It takes a lot of self control to detach. It’s mental strength that emerges as a survival strategy, especially when parents have NPD and childhood is a nightmare of traps, tricks, gaslighting, put downs, lies, and hypocrisy. Rather than believe and trust, the child survives by detachment and distrust. The real challenge later in life is to learn to give and accept love as an adult with a spouse and children. But it can be done. I am thankful for that.
Withholding information from a narcissist means you also have to withhold it from their agents, and from those these agents get their information about you from, etc. etc. This is almost impossible.
Some good advice that I've read is to not talk about the narcissist with anyone and not engage when others are talking about him. Just refrain from commenting on the matter. That way the narcissist will not get any proof that you are still in any way concerned with them, so no narcissistic supply.
I have found this to be true as well. And God help me when I have a weak moment and don't follow this rule I have for myself. It just keeps the cycle going.
Exactly! This is such a good point. The agents for the narcs are coming out of the woodwork, like sneaky cockroaches that love the dark, and pretend to be Allies.
@@USHGJDSit's not weak to need to vent to people you know about someone who consistently mistreats you.
it's something you have to do that you sometimes don't do bc it's basically a dodging tactic & dodging is exhausting.
find ppl who don't know them at all, and vent to those people about them. Don't let them isolate you to where you can't talk to anyone, if you can avoid it
I was the scapegoat child and when I started to grey rock my family, my sister said my personality changed. No, sis, I’m going to protect myself from all of you from now on.
I 👍all your videos.
At 14 years old, when my narc father yelled at me, I started to leave the room (which angered him even more). I told him I cant hear what he is saying when he yells, only that he is screaming at me. Eventually, each time he screamed and I started turning to go, he would lower his voice....and I would listen.
Great idea!
My son figured this out pretty young, too. Eventually he started packing up to come stay with me for long periods of time when his dad would act up. A couple times he avoided his dads house for 6 months at a time. His dad finally got the picture.
“It’s a choice instead of a consequence.”
I like that
The last time I "grey rocked" my mother she punched me in the back of the head. I feel like that was a grey rock failure, but that experience also made me go no contact with her so it was ultimately a win 😊
😂😂😂 I'm sorry but it sounded like a "grey rock" joke... I'm glad you got out of that situation...
It sounds very mean to punch you in the head and i think it was a total win for you😊
pls telll me you punched her back
The trick is you can choose to respond politely, maintain moral authenticity -- and still be gray rock. The key is to be mindful/thoughtful of how you respond or react, and avoid going into 'automatic mode'.
Yes.
Think first.
I am grey rocking my narc stepmother. It's the only way that I can save my health. Unfortunately she is in the position of power since she has control of all assets and inheritance. She has already moved to remove my name from accounts in retaliation. I choose my health over money...
Mark Paladino To choose your health over money, that’s truly something to be proud of. There’s nothing greater than peace of mind.
you should definitely protect your piece of mind...but, you should also find a lawyer that delights in confounding narcissists...ypur inheritance probably needs help grey rocking...
amy joy I agree with this. Get a lawyer to get what you deserve-if possible.
That's not easy. Good luck, never give up.
But how can you be healthy without money
I had a co-worker who was my editor (am a journalist), who is a narcissist, he started getting jealous of me getting good stories, and praise, and started undermining my work, trying to give me the most absurd and useless assignments. I tried everything, even detachment, gasslighting, he also tried everything, including trying to fire me. I fought so hard, he left the job before me. What was sad, is that I quit the job realising how the environment in the newsroom and the company had allowed that to happen. When I realised most people in the company enabled that type of behaviour (because there are lots and lots of people with huge egos in the media), I left.
If possible, do not interact with anyone showing narcissistic tendencies. If you have to interact then be as calm as possible. Do not respond to anything which is not fact based. Don't even respond to slights or backhand comments. Document everything. It needs to be shown that you will not react emotionally to a situation.
The detachment strategy has worked well for me in a work setting. I employ a professional, non-committal, polite attitude and never agree with or say yes to things immediately, and instead put emphasis on talking things over as a team.
What I found is that they can be indifferent right back and its easy for them. If your response is out of character for you, they know. In other words, if you dont respond the way they are convinced you would they become almost suspicious and they go into a emotionless mask that is almost robotic, ie no feelings, no beliefs, no opinions, only facts...our gray rock method.
Yes they mirror you, warped creatures never stop, it’s a wonder they even sleep.
I couldn’t agree with you more. My husband does this. However I act is how he acts sometimes. If I gray rock and act nonchalant he’s acts nonchalant. I’m
Usually the one that has to break the madness. I have to shower him with love to break the cycle
I was thinking about what you say...I realised that one must get to the point where we understand that what they say or do really doesn´t matter and being in a calm state is pleasant for us so we can go to that feeling with no effort.
@James Gerboc Correct! They have studied us and know us well so they know we've changed. I got a lot of rage and punishment for stepping back. I'd prefer a no-opinion robot over the ramped-up punisher, argh! The detachment works beautifully (better, I think) with people who are not already in our homes.
@@Juniperberry1 if you know that your husband is a narcissist, then why would you stay with him? Those people never change
“Anything she says can and will be used against her”. You nailed it there! That essentially describes my mother.
My husband is always telling me to not give any information to my narcissist ex husband. And now that I have the information you have blessed me with, I see how this goes down. I’m too trusting. But now I know. Fool me twice.
Eliana Boer The narcissist plays the game called, "I get to deceive and manipulate you while representing that you are obligated to be open and forthcoming with me." That's how they roll.
@@kevinhornbuckle lol yes!
@@kevinhornbuckle Yes- they are hypocrites in every aspect of their life.
Same attitude with empathy. They expect boatloads of empathy without giving a drop.
Dr. G., You make these complicated subjects very accessible & understandable! Very grateful for your YT presence! Thx & appreciation from your Michigan viewer.
@Pinkaugust my scumbag "father figure," could care less.
was a bout to give the same compliment. these videos are presented in a way that are easy to follow on a complex issue.
Within my own experience with a histrionic narcissist, avoidance can only get me so far before said narcissist decides it's time for Act II and either feigns an ailment or by some other extreme attention getting scheme.
They will just lie and make stuff up if you give them nothing. They have no honor just a need to destroy.
Yes, if one starts down this road they have to be willing to see it through no matter what
@@lizl1407 At times that "road" you're referring to seems more like the hallway from The Shining when engaging with a narcissist. ;)
LOL (NOT REALLY FUNNY) buI yes a dramatic attention getting
Yup my mom threatens suicide when she doesn’t get her way. I had an ex boyfriend who did that when I broke up with him. I don’t fall for that. I’m not responsible for keeping these people alive lol
Here's my 2 cents on it, as someone who has done exactly that since age 4 when I figured out that my narc mother fed herself on my feelings. Thankfully I "only" got an attachment issue (avoidant, understandable..) and not other bigger issues (tested by therapists), but the "ignore and detach from her" tactic made it harder to connect later on with healthy people.. but it was protective at that time.
Sometimes I wonder if my mother was a narc. I vaguely remember never speaking of any emotional problems, thinking that she wouldnt care, pretend to care but not, and it would just make her feel stronger as it proved I was weak and needed her. Codependents are like that too. She was definitely one of those. In ways, they seem to be similar to narcs.
I think the risk of grey rocking across the board is real. But it still might end up being worth it to escape a narc abuser.
I'm creeped out by healthy people. They don't seem real. Ah Ha! Yup! I have a narc detector. Everyone is one now! My emotions are reduced to a form letter for all! This may illustrate what you're saying. Most people are either narcs or the flying monkeys that help them. And while I know this isn't true during the entire day to day I can't help feeling this as a go to defensive measure.
@@troyc6427 codependents are nothing like narcissists
I've been using this method for years without even knowing there was a name for it! It's worked extremely well for me as far as protecting my self-esteem and emotional wellbeing, but occassionally, my NPD spouse will notice and then of course blame me for all our problems because I am "cold and distant and withholding of affection". I have to admit that I'm sure my distance doesn't help our marriage, but I don't know of anything else I can do! Divorce is unfortunately not an option.
Out of curiosity are you hoping they leave you or you're just completely stuck and have no other choice and it looks like you'll be with them forever ?
"Anything you say, can and Will be held against you" 😳 THAT is an amazing thought process. Any time you talk at a narc (you aren't conversing actively with them, thats for sure).....if you say that in your head before you open your mouth.....you may think twice about what info you divulge. I absolutely love this! Theme song included 🎶🎵 "bad boys..whatcha gonna do when they come for you?" 🎶🎵 I am definitely going to be using this phrase before I say anything to him!! It will be used as a 'pause' feature. I kniw this isnt the key point of this video...but hey Thanks Dr. Grande ha!
The Grey Rock Method/Strategy is great - I am glad it has a term that has been acknowledged. I am from a dysfunctional family of origin and my father is a narc. I believe that I have used this strategy since childhood - it is logical, practical and works. I believe that many people from dysfuctional narc families use it without thinking about it. It is our programming from childhood that helped us survive. BUT it does not work in healthy relationships with "normal" people, so I have had to learn other methods of interacting with healthy normal people - the things/stuff that codependents need to learn about healthy relationships. The Grey Rock Method is functional with narcissists BUT does not lead to good enough relationships with good enough people.
since I started this method with my dad a year ago, the frequency of panic attacks has greatly reduced for me. I used to try so hard to get him to understand my emotions and where I was coming from and just getting more upset in the process, but my therapist (based on the gray rock method) suggested accepting that he won't ever understand (which is hard but it's the truth) so that I could stop hoping for that and setting myself up for disappointment. It seemed kind of harsh at first but once I stopped caring so much about his opinion and started keeping our conversations at a surface level, we had less arguments and I had less anxiety attacks. He definitely still upsets me frequently but the detachment has helped me to walk away, when he tries to instigate something, and keep the distress at a manageable level, and additionally allows me to start working through my emotions without him immediately invalidating them. It's been extremely helpful for me, but I agree it definitely depends on the situation.
Well now your free to run amoke.
another thing I've noticed people doing to try to get around this "gray rock method", and not just narcissists (although mainly them), is that they give you compliments in order that they can really stun you later with a harsh criticism.. that one's gotten me a few times
In my opinion, the main difficulty for an empathic person in a workplace setting is the following.
After the narcissistic coworker failed often enough to attack you, they choose another victim at the workplace.
This is not really a relief, when you see others suffer instead of you.
I tried Grey rocking and then the narcissists began stalking. I had to take my self defense to another level. They will use anything and everything they can to get at me. It was a living nightmare. Stay away from narcissistic personalities they are often very threatening when they don’t get their way. Thank you for your content. I talked to the police. Only because the more I stayed quiet the more they threatened me. I needed help, someone needed to bring authoritative accountability.
Get a BOBLOV M5 body camera!
“Detachment Strategy”
Very good term. I was thinking about this earlier, but couldn’t find the correct words. Thanks.
This CAN make a narc more obsessed.
Kintsugi
I believe it’s about fighting against feelings of being ignored or insignificant, it’s what is at the root cause of NPD so it’s a deep fear, Of being invalidated by someone close to them. Or treated like less. I’ve been diagnosed with NPD I don’t believe I would meet the criteria for diagnosis today I never experienced anything like supply or atleast in the way I’ve seen it described. I’ve gotten obsessed with people, maybe this is what supply is. I don’t know, I think the disorder rears it’s head the most when faced with failure or certain types of criticism, certain triggers that have left deep wounds in the psyche.
Honestly think about a child who is being ignored by his mother and his feelings are hurt so they act out to get their attention, that’s basically what it is in my opinion
@@fishstix1900 no its actually the desire to upset someone and get the upset response
@@fishstix1900 Is your empathy warm (affective) or cold (cognitive)? Understanding someone's pain, or feeling it yourself?
Blue Colonial
Ok, I see, so just not reacting to the theatrics.
Troy C
I don’t really know Troy, I guess cognitive would describe it best. To be honest I tended to think people were over exaggerating for attention with emotional displays and I also tended to ignore their circumstances as well, I could understand perfectly if I took the time to think about it or listen properly it just wasn’t my default state.
I learned a similar method in a course I took about handling "difficult people". This was MUCH more concise and addressed it's possible weaknesses, which makes the information more useful. Thanks for the great info Dr. Grande!
I took a course about handling "difficult people", too. It seemed to exist in a weird place between very nearly admitting that office politics are a breeding ground for narcissistic behaviour and claiming that even extremely distructive behaviours would be normal communication challenges. The course was not actually bad, but it felt a lot like a walk on a tightrope.
I’ve grey rocked people I knew for a fact were rude, elitist and bigoted people. What shocked me was how quickly they became angry. I could almost feel their energy and they seethed the moment I showed indifference to them. I was cordial and kind. But I wasn’t “nice” ti then, and they were angry. They began to smear my name and tell others how much I was a bad friend and projected all the things they said onto me.
😳 I am addicted to Dr. Grande videos. Thanks Dr. Grande very helpful info. Have a great Friday and weekend 🤩
@Attie’s Mom hey you =) hope all is well. ❣🥳
Absolutely love and adore your name
I tried grey rock approach with a narcissist that was bullying me at work. It totally backfired, as she then felt ignored & accused me (to my boss) of being distant, isolating myself, not being a team member. In retrospect, I should have very carefully played along, until I was able to leave.
That's what narcs do when people ignore them. It leads to other gossip and accusations of things that are "wrong" with the victim. They accuse them of being distant, socially inept, etc. You can't win.
Dr. Grande, I appreciate the way you talked about how even compliments from the narc are often used for ulterior motives. I know how this works well. A type of insidious & tricky conditioning. I got to the point of only taking note of both the criticisms & the compliments, while not caring too much about either. I will take a moment to consider what the narc has said, however, I will never let them know that I did. It is extremely important to hold your cards close to your chest when dealing with these people.
This can be extremely difficult if you live with the narc everyday and they are always in your space.
You will eventually react, not only respond to them.
Yes. I've noticed my limit is 2 hours when another is constantlt pushing and attempting to control.
Dr Grande, where have you been all my life? I feel ridiculous, but I’m tearing up during this video. Had I a person like you in my world, life would be so different. Thank you so much for your help.
Thank you so much for pointing out that someone who's been exposed to a narcissist, and defenceless (for example, a child growing with a narcissist parent) is going to exhibit symptoms which could point to schizoid personality disorder, autism or similar.
I have a very narcissistic family member and the only way I have found to keep the peace with this person, is to go gray rock. They can literally text, email or leave me voicemails with all sorts of nonsense and my response is always "ok". lol 😆 If they need something important, I wait a few times for them to ask and then I do the bare minimum and go on with my life. It just is so much better and I wish I didn't have to do this, but nothing else has ever worked to resolve these issues. I feel so much more at peace going gray rock.
Yes, for me I gray rock, but then I end up with this overwhelming need and desire to share my life with my husband, and I can't stand not having someone to talk to and share my life with, so I get weak, especially when he asks me questions, and I end up sharing my thoughts and feeling about things going on with me, only to have it backfire everytime, sometimes not right away, but sometimes immediately. He uses my own feelings and opinions against me... It's just unbelievable! I'm chastised or talked down to for my decisions, my feelings, my thoughts.... How is this even possible, I ask myself? And then I sit there, so angry with myself, asking myself, why, why did you do it, you KNOW how it works, you KNOW it's going to bite you, why did you do it again? 🤦♀️ And then I hate myself for being so vulnerable and needing to share with someone... Long sigh... 😔 It's such a crazy-making vicious cycle...
Stacy Barbeau...I do it too. Don't beat up on yourself. We are normal and want connection and bonding. I figured I must find other, safe and normal people to do this. So I'm doing that but we all need to make some social groups for true empaths too. Yes!
*it's a choice as opposed to a consequence...* that concept is a heady one, even if it sounds simplistic. i can find at least one of these little nuggets in every single one of your videos...then, for funsies, i can extrapolate and apply it to a shocking number of things. i had been frightened of being diagnosed with borderline personality disorder for years...after listening to the doctor describe a great many aspects of a person with bpd, i felt almost no resonance...histrionic personality disorder, maybe...the relief i have been experiencing the last few days has manifested a new interest in cleaning my house, and getting back into hobbies i'd been neglecting...i know it won't last without work, but i think that when i am allowed to reenter the world, i will find a therapist who would like to help with that. thanks again, doctor.
Thank you for giving us the knowledge that even good information in the hands of a narcissist can be a bad thing.
I've often wondered why more people don't utilize the 5th amendment, but I never thought about this in the same context as narcissistic persons. Brilliant, Dr Grande! Thank you. 👍🌹
I live in Canada half the year, and Florida the other half. So I can only take the 5th with my narc in the winter.
This is so right on. Waiting for this to become concrete psychological definitions.
Eliana Boer It may already be as concrete as things can get in psychology. I think they refer to it as accepted wisdom.
Thank you Dr. grande! 💙❤️💕💙❤️💕I’m so glad I listened to your talk about gray rock! I didn’t think I needed to listen, but I was way wrong!
For example , a narc is recognizing that I’m onto him, & he gave me an unlikely compliment
I thought how odd, since he is constantly finding ways to attack my personality ,my clothes, my hair, my gifts to others, my shoes, my religion, what I eat, and more. Like u said Dr. Grande, In spite of my desire to be social, I need to be indifferent (gray rock) to everything that he says!
All of it is an effort to manipulate me.
Gray rock fails when you have interactions with narc beyond anything superficial like the weather or basic communication to get chores done. Best to treat them as if they don’t exist.
I can’t believe all of Dr Grande’s videos are also unedited, but great length (not too short nor too long). You are a pure genius and I am blessed to have come across your channel! Bravo 👏
Dr. Grande thank you! I struggle with the detachment strategy. You're absolutely correct. All information is used against me. I really don't know how to appropriately handle my narcissistic mother. Thank you for posting all of your videos. They have helped me greatly.
Every time I made any type of statement, my narc would critique and criticize everything I said.
Awesome information Dr. Grande. I missed this one and just watched it today. I have been surrounded by narcissists my entire life. I have instinctively done the gray rock for self preservation. You out lined the problems very well. You may not give them any new ammo but they will go ahead and lie about you, fake like you in front of others, punish you in times of high stress, like a family death, and I have at times been extremely narcissistic myself in self defense. And I am not proud of those times. I don't like to hurt others. However, you can't let your guard down with them for a second. I just allowed my ex husband to help me with a big move and he ROBBED me of all my cash and all of my jewelry. They do this. They wait and punish you for real or imagined slights when you least expect it. My mother did this once I was grown and she couldn't control me anymore. My sister continues to do this even though I haven' spoken to her since 2001. Both of her sons committed suicide ( no surprise) and she sends me the most hateful emails blaming me for their deaths. And, yes, this is upsetting. Both of my husbands have lain in wait to GET me later. And of course denied they were TRYING to hurt me. Dealing with these people is the most stressful thing ever. Especially year after year. I've encountered them at work and one destroyed my career because people believed the lies out of her sweet mouth. I get that I am a narc magnet and boy am I working on that! I think what we're both sayin here is that is no BEST way to deal with them. We can only get educated and then cut them off, if possible.
Yes, l did this, then got discarded. Which was a relief, though it took me time to realise that was what l was feeling. This was not a failure but success.
I think the point is to get discarded, so good for you!! Congratulations!
I will definitely keep this video and refer back to it often. This one is ‘golden’. Thank you.
Detachment method is awesome. I don’t know if my ex-husband is a narcissist, but it worked in getting rid of him faster. The biggest problem I found was that I also had to keep personal information from friends because he went to them for it when he stopped getting it from me. I found out where the “leak” was and had to cut off her access to information as well.
More I learn about narcissism, more I able to protect myself and avoid their trap. As I'm relearning how to put down boundaries without any fear, we have to remember it for what it is and act upon it in the proper way. It is what it is.
Trying to figure out how to deal with the fallout of living most of my life as a gray rock. Grew up with a narcissist father, had narcissist husband, maybe a bit of a narcissist myself idk lol self diagnosis is not always a good way to go about things. But long story short I feel like I've had to spend so much of my life detached and trying to blend in with the wall behind me that it makes connecting with the people in my life that I love difficult I have trouble connecting with my children I have trouble connecting with my romantic partner not because I don't want to but because I feel like I've had to live so much of my life detached and repress my own emotions so much that I struggle to access them.
Wow, this was absolutely fantastic Dr. Grande!
In some of your videos I literally want to take notes while you speak and this is one of them.
I have used this strategy of detachment with success. However I must say that it does require a lot of work in order to be constantly alert, attentive while regulating emotions at the same time. In other words, it doesn’t flow naturally but it’s worthwhile.
Thank you as always!
I've been trying to "co-parent" with my ex for the past 6 years dealing with all of these issues. My daughter did not attend school for a couple of years. Only made appearances here and there to satisfy social workers. The rest of the time she rode around with her dad on his FedEx routes. He falls apart when she's not around. She finally got a better social worker who got to the bottom of things. Took custody from him and gave it to me. My daughter ran away back to him. He kept her in his apartment for 6 months while police questioned him daily at his door and he lied. For 6 months! He was finally caught with an informant who wore a camera. My daughter had to go through 6 months of inpatient treatment 5 hours from home (so he wouldn't just go pick her up). She was beginning to lose her identity and was at the start of developing a personality disorder. She's been through intense therapy, is on good medication and since her dad has been in jail for the past 3 months she has moved back in with me, started school again, has friends again, spends time with my family again, got a job and talks about the future. She and I lost 6 years. He's in jail and awaiting sentencing next Friday. I'm working on my victim impact statement. If he gets out now. They will revert to their old unhealthy dynamic. My daughter needs space and time to establish herself without him. I hope they give him a significant amount of prison time. The maximum is 10years.
Some people find it interesting that my daughter is a twin and her twin hasn't wanted anything to do with her dad since she met him. She could read the danger very soon after meeting him.
I'm exhausted. This entire thing was incredibly traumatic. I couldn't begin to describe. But thats what I'm trying to do for this impact statement. My main concern is him staying in prison for a while to allow my daughter time. She's 18.
You say that this isn't an ideal method. However when you discover yourself in a relationship with a narcissist and logistically it isn't yet possible to run away the Grey rock method allows interpersonal distance. This distance gave me some time to learn what a narc was etc. And helped me regain my emotional feet on the ground. Counselors basically say leave. I have nowhere to go at this time. So for 1.5yrs I am a grey rock. I hoped he'd dump me for no supply. But he is now back to hoovering. Yet I still have no escape. So grey rock is very useful, the narc gets bored, and the abuse declines cuz there is no juice in it for him. I still seek escape.
Did you get out?
@@Thecraftyblacksheep yes he finally evicted me claiming he was dying. No help from him for moving or relocating, lawyers said it would be long process to go after him for unlawful eviction (in pandemic here in Canada not allowed), so i found a place. 8 months later he started leaving voice messages calling me honey, i havent replied.
I really like your synopsis here: while I understand why people talk about 'grey rock', it should be emphasised it isn't a recipe for anti-narcissism success, but perhaps a way to start thinking about it. What works in a given circumstance is much more nuanced than that. I instinctively switched off the engagement and noticed that right up to when I finally said no more my lack of engagement and non-provision of information was enormously and directly inflaming. I sqw screaming rages just at my unwillingness to rage back.
A very powerful trap I fell into a lot when younger was my tendency for explanation, greatly heightened in me as a part of my nature as a scientist, as a basis for engagement on the basis of ingenuously examining whether the logic or facts involved in any explanation holds up, on the way to a better explanation. But an explanation to a narcissistic person is just an open invitation to invasion and abuse: they simply don't do logic, facts or responsible cooperative problem-solving. For me, this is the single most important part of what 'grey rock' has to be about. Set boundaries and apply consequences. Don't ever explain.
Dr. Grande gets an A+ in my book on this...he really hit it on the head. Thank you Dr. Grande!
Dr Grande you probably won’t see this but I think an interesting topic would be how revenge tactics differ in narcissists, borderlines, ASPDs or any other applicable conditions. Hope you will consider this topic.
They will go after you. Be prepared and aware of your surroundings. They will contact your friends for personal information. Continue to pursue you via guilt, shame, manipulation, and criticism, pretending that they care..will threaten suicide..sometimes create superficial wounds follow you around-the-clock..etc!
Holy crap, this is like Dealing With a Narcissist, Collegiate Level 101!
Absolutely fantastic presentation, Dr. Grande - a tour de force on navigating interactions with a narcissist. And the connection to the realm of law and dealing with police...just, wow.
Dr.G. thanks for taking the time and caring eough for sharing your knowledge. It means alot.
As one who seeks data it’s hard not to analyze it. Criticism helps me more than compliments, a mixture is best. IMHO, discerning which are valid from an unavoidable narcissist, and responding with either brief polite disagreement vs thanks, works best. I remain true, in control, and it tends to repel future interactions. Like this video, constructive criticism is pure gold.
Doctor Grande always insightful as per usual.. Been using this method close to a year now. I must say I've not lost myself. It has allowed me to set some much needed boundaries and finding peace within myself. Thank you.
I don't like the term 'grey rock'. I feel like the subject of personality disorders is so full of nebulous terms already, and I don't find them helpful. One of the reasons I found your videos so helpful, is the approach to breaking things down into simple sience-based symptoms and behaviours. Really happy to see you refer to it more as a 'detachment strategy'. That's so much clearer for people who are already in a distressed state to comprehend, and less open to misinterpretation.
Me too. So I like thinking of the tree concept with branches having blossomed. The blossoms are nebulous and overwhelming to you so simply remove the crossbred substructures if you feel it limits your oversight.
@@S3RAVA3LM omg that was so poetic.. i loved the metaphor. I'm not sure if you actually appreciate it, but what the heck! I'll give it a try -- i like thinking of input we receive from people as layers of colour being painted across the bubble of one's soul so when it starts to weigh on it too much, it can always be rinsed away. It's just paint... who we all are..
That's like, high degree of detachment..
@@malabuha you're the best. thx
It should be called 'The gradual progressive grey rock method'
Because you can't implement it straight away. It has to be gradual and slow that they barely notice it coming. Slowly fading it into the ' No Contact ' zone. Fix your mind for atleast 5 years. Though it may not be that long or it may even be longer depending on the situation. STRATEGY IS KEY
I went no contact in 2013 with one narc, and have used grey rock for a couple of others.
It's a great strategy for peace of mind.
I have been using the gray rock system for a while in all my writing and interactions. The problem is this person has my children. It makes it very difficult because she uses them as pawns of war.
Her lies are so absurd and fantastical that the court believes that there's no way that someone would say something like this if there's not truth in it.
I will prevail, and my kids know the truth, it's just terribly expensive.
Wow you have hit the nail on the head. Working with a few of them, I have much more experience in the field that I am in than anyone else where I work. These people suck all the energy out of you and when you try to help them or the business they will take all the credit and they are so sneaky. I have actually put this one in my favorite videos just in case I slept which we always do I can go back and watch this thank you so much this was very informative
They do set traps, and you have to be on your toes all the time that's why it's so draining. I've also learned this because of a family member who is a narcissist. Sometimes nothing you say will help
Interesting connection between schizoid PD and grey rock!
Schizoid was my childhood coping mech to cope with narcissistic caregiver
Grey rock can become the only option to maintain one's own well-being .
GREAT example Dr. Grande. I am very appreciative of how much you’ve shared with us here on your channel. It’s helped me in a lot of ways. 💜
Thank you for sharing, Doc. This video was on point. Gray rock is very difficult to maintain long-term when custody of a child/adolescent is involved.
All the narc has to do is pretend that you spoke with them. They distort and destroy.
Right. They use the kids as tools to get attention for themselves. Effectively, they emotionally and perhaps physically torture the child(ren) in order to elicit attention from the other parent.
Yes
Those communication apps like
My Family Wizard
and others are a great form of gray rock and it saves all communications as documentation and in chronological order when one sticks to it, yes I agree a pain and time consuming, but aren't narcs going to be a pain regardless.
Best wishes to you and yours, stay safe.
It is difficult but gets easier as kids get older. Mine are now 18 and almost 15. Unfortunately they are involved in many sports and activities that bring us together but I’ve got avoidance down pat. He does find cracks in my armor on occasion and comes in for the kill but it just results in me strengthening my armor. He also makes himself look crazy to others when they see him doing his song and dance as I stand there silent. He then tries to punish me when we are out of anyones earshot so vigilance is key. It’s exhausting but Hallelujah I’m almost done lol
Yes! Very true. This resonates with me. I use grey rock and the issues you mentioned ring true to me. I have more to think about now, Lol. Workplace Narcs, especially management, is extremely difficult d/t the power differential present and underlying tones that they hold the power over your job. (my last day is Monday thankfully). Blessings
when my dad compliments me, I get so uncomfortable. he always goes a little too far with the compliment, a little too exaggerated. I can tell he's trying to get me to accept a too-good-to-be-true compliment only to turn around and call me arrogant or egoistic or full of myself later. he'll call me the smartest person he's ever met and then later tell me that I don't understand my weaknesses.
THANK YOU DR. GRANDE! I have been exposed to narcissistic abuse all my life. Thank you for clarifying so many things, this has helped me tremendously today.
I just want to say I love your videos, I found them to be the most informative and clear-cut, specifically about narcissism.
Detachment does work!
Godspeed you!
This video has so many great insights, I think I will replay this at least 3 times, maybe sit down and take notes. Share with my therapist...
Thank you so so much for sharing this! You might have bettered the life of my doughter (my parenting, co-parenting and her relationship with her father) through all the strength and wisdom I get from your video's. So know that you make the world a tiny bit better with what you do. Can't thank you enough.
it's good that he recognizes that the police do not have a suspect's best interests at heart; he should remember that in other contexts.
This channel has helped me so much in processing the narcissistic abuse that has happened to me in the past. I was in a long term relationship with a clinically diagnosed narcissist. He was on disability for a variety of disorders. He actually used his diagnosis (in combination with my ignorance) to gain my trust. Not long after we started dating, there were hints of behaviors that disturbed me. He sat down with his paperwork from his doctor for his disability that went through his disorders and brief subscriptions of what it entailed. He made a big show of emotion, stressed how much he trusted me to reveal all this, how awesome and kind and loving I was to be so accepting, and let me read through it. I thought narcissist meant he was insecure about how he appeared to others. I figured he was seeing a doctor, really working through his issues, and that we could work through them together. When I realized my error, he would use the defense that he told me all this and I agreed, and now I'm abandoning him when things get rough. Kicking him when he's down. I finally escaped when I realized that this wasn't a bump in the road, this WAS the road. I literally had to leave and pretend I didn't know who he was...
I enjoyed diving deeper into the gray rock method. Thanks to you, Dr. Grande, now a target can be more agile when applying the technique.
Very clear explanation...I feel sad that I can't safely share my joy with two people in my life. You helped validate my detachment. I felt guilty for doing it..still do sometimes but now I know I must or suffer.
Insteresting and informative as usual Dr. Grande. Brilliant to put it into context when you desribe the grey rock method as a boundary maintenance tool, Stating bounradries and maintaining them with a narcissist is very difficult, using this method with a toolbox of non judgemental/bland replies seems a good strategy. Restating our boundaries and replying to the twisted/convolouted response with something like "That's not my reality" is about the best I've managed to come up with so far.
This is interesting because my therapist wants me to learn to do this with my Narc mother so that I can allow her back into my life, because he believes something led her to be this way (highly abusive in all ways) and I should have empathy towards her for that but also know how to not let her get under my skin. So I feel guilt that I don't care for her and I wish she could get better, but I have seen her destroy so many lives without even a glimpse of remorse or guilt in her eyes. She is always the 'victim' though she has had a good life and everything she ever wanted.
You make some very good points, Dr. Grande -- this technique is definitely not a "one size fits all."
Narcissists seem to only want you in their life when you are providing "benefit/value" to them (fill in the blank with "benefit/value;" it can be money, attention, manual labor, etc.). The Gray Rock Technique as I learned it is when the victim stops performing the benefit/value to the narcissist by not responding/acting in the prior "beneficial/valuable" way(s). Narcissists will then voluntarily move on to someone who'll WILL serve them to their liking. So, it's really the narcissist who makes the decision to leave their victim alone. It has worked for me in a couple of relationships, and I would not hesitate to use it again if I had to. Time is too precious to waste on a narcissist's self-centered agenda.
Thanks for sharing and educating us on the toxic behavior, Dr. Grande ! Your videos are useful and I believe that it will be better for people to be educated what is toxic and healthy behavior at the earlier age.
Hi Todd, Thank you. Your analysis on the topic in this yt video came across as balanced and reasoned. Other yt videos by others, that have popped up on this topic, have at times, made it seem as if this topic were without a fixed horizon so to speak, leaving a feeling of the 'twilight zone'. Where as here, there appears to be a horizon and reality that is real rather than distorted. I don't feel quite as sea sick now, lol. You managed to simplify a complex topic without making it simplistic or sensationalising it and instead fostered understanding in a non-judgmental seemingly unbiased manner towards either 'person A or B'. You didn't make it come across as difficult, however, I believe what you achieved is difficult to do, in any field. Ironically, this yt video also made me realize I hadn't realised how complex this topic is. In addition I've gained insight into how(that is not to say how to), how it is possible to differentiate and distinguish nuances in a manner, that while difficult, possible with some degree of clarity, consistency and make sense. I'm not sure everyone has that ability or the ability to develop what you have achieved and, I believe that it is safe to say that here, without concern of that automatically being labelled as an issue and in turn myself labelled as having an issue, especially out of context of all aspects, by you. Then again, I could be mistaken. I could be wrong. It wouldn't be the first and I'm sure wouldn't be the last. Again. Thank you. As I'm not an expert in this area I can't verify the veracity of your content without further looking into it, however, the qualitative substance of your analysis has gone someway towards instilling trust and respect in expertise around this topic. I appreciate what you have done here. Kind regards, Eleonora.
Edit: I realise now, what I was trying to say at one point was that I had realised a level of complexity I hadn't before in this complex topic.
Thank you for giving a meaningful explanation with effective examples. I have familial experience with such tortuous encounters. You provided some clarity for me in specific areas where I always stumbled. I had a huge "a ha!" moment. Very grateful.
POWERFUL & exceedingly HELPFUL video! Dr. Grande, you are totally AWESOME! I appreciate you taking time to provide detail in your videos! Thanks so much😘
Wonderful information! Good to know that it is hard to detach (but necessary) from positive statements as well- that the struggle is real. I've realized that positive interactions are a set up for the slam. That somehow or in someway they are setting a trap.
These are my favorite kinds of videos from Dr. Grande
Thank you so much for this information. We are not at the same level, he keeps me from having money and I don't have my own car. I appreciate this video and your expertise. Even though I'm at slight disadvantage I can still be less of a target.