Thanks so much for the excellent demo! The MSDI is such an unconventional feature, that some users really don't get it until they actually TRY it and play with the levels. Unlike most DIs, the MSDI provides a mic-simulated version of the speaker output of the amp that works against the speaker that it is connected to to reproduce that speaker's character. You can also use it with a dummy load to get NO contribution from the speaker for running into IRs, etc..
Hi John, thank you so much for your comment! You did a fantastic job with this amp, seriously. I've been in love with the 6505 sound since I started playing the guitar as a young kid and I always dreamed about a more flexible 6505 with a ton of modern features. Then you guys released the Invective... It's a true masterpiece that finally ended my tone hunt after almost 20 years.
@@johnfields8745 Thats a good point for the next generation of 6505's. :o) By the way, how can the MSDI know what sort of speakers are connected to the Peavey Invective? Are you somehow measuring the impedance curve of the connected speaker? The Invective got a huge fanbase already and I'm trying to feed them a bit more details in the forums.
@@TobiasJust .... it's dumb. There's a simple passive filter that does an outgoing SM57, "one inch from the outside of the cone simulation" on the signal that is at the speaker jack. The impedance curve is inherently transposed to that filter by means of Ohm's Law. It's too simple not to work. Obviously, the effects of volume in the ears can't be accounted for, nor cone breakup; however, the character of this "simulation" holds for all practical purposes.
How do you use the MSDI output on your Peavey Invective 120? Could you explain it to me? Is it even possible to use it for "silent" recording, or do you have to have it turned up loud through the cab as well in order to get a good signal (or any signal at all) from the MSDI output? If it is possible to record with it without having the amp cranked up loud, AND still sound good, could you please share/explain the steps you use to do so? I would really appreciate it. As you know, Peavey included nothing on how to use the MSDI output in the Invective 120 owner's manual, they just show it in a numbered breakdown of the back panel in which they give its name and a brief description of what its function is supposed to be, but nothing on how to use it what so ever.
Questions: Do I still need to load the head with a cab, if using the DI out of a head like this, or is it only using the pre-amp and emulation? Can I run this through a cab, AND DI out to record and play at the same time?
@@300WINMAG360 Holy ****, I just looked these guitars up. Absolutely beautiful pieces! I can imagine not everyone liking the purple, but I love such guitars because they are pretty rare and unique. Good ones!
Any chance you could do a vid where you dial in a recording tone using the MSDI? I'm currently in the process of reamping direct and couldn't find much on what others are doing with this amp in that situation. Great video!
@@steveb1413 Hahaha! I've been wanting this amp for more than a year now and it's always being pushed back here in Canada. I just looked and we're supposed to receive them in February but it's been delayed like this for a big while now so I I'll probably end with another amp at some point lol I don't know why thought there aren't many Invective overall anyway...it's true that not a lot of people seem to have them when it sounds that great with a ton of usable features.
@@bengirard1984 I can totally understand with the price of the amp vs modelers and not needing the huge amp. I got it way before I was into digital modeling. Even now I always a/b my presets against the invective.
Great video. Got a question. If I want to record direct out using invective 120 into a tascam dp32sd portastudio do I need a load box? The portastudio has built in cab simulators I believe
Thank you! It depends on what you'll want to do with the amp Technically you have a lot of different ways to go with different pros and cons: Using the MSDI: - You need to connect a cab to load the power amp section, otherwise you'll roast your amp - The MSDI always provides a miced cab sound, so you're not allowed to run it through a second cab emulation (Like the one of your Tascam mixing desk), otherwise it will sound bad and dull Using the MSDI with a load box: - You connect a load box instead of a guitar cab, so the amp is totally silent even if cranked - Then you can use the MSDI signal for silent recording or to please the FOH with a silent stage on live gigs. - Downside: The MSDI has a unique feature that tries to emulate the cab that has been connected. When you use a cheap loadbox with a resistive load, the impedance curve doesn't match to real guitar speakers, resulting in different tonal behaviour in the bass, mids and heights. This effect is worse the more you crank your amp. However, there are reactive load boxes which emulate impedance curves of specific speakers, which you might want to consider. But I noticed there are differences in between them and some sound brighter, some sound darker. Using a load box without MSDI: - Load box to your guitar amplifier, so it's silent - Usually good load boxes have a XML jack to get the signal of your amp on line or mic level. However, this will sound bad, bright and harsh without a cab simulation - You'll want to run this signal through your Tascams cab simulation and then you have a finished sound. This is a good option in case you should not like the MSDI sound. - You can go even further by buying some devices that can load IR's (Two Notes CAB M Plus) and use these, so you can use your favorite IR's on live scenarios on Tube amps. This is good if both the Tascam Cab simulation or the Peavey MSDI are just not your cup of tea... Last solution: - Keep your cab connected to your Guitar amplifier - Activate the FX Loop and connect your FX-Send to your Tascam guitar cab simulation - Leave the FX return on your amp untouched! - Amp should be silent if the FX loop is not parallel, but you got a signal for cab simulation. - Downside: You're not going through your power amp section, which will have an impact on your tone. You have no power amp distortion, saturation, SAG and all that stuff that you like when cranking up tube amps that are designes for. - BUT: The Invective is OK to be used that way, since the poweramp section was designed to not sag and distort a lot. The main tone comes from the preamp section. It will sound a little different though, since just running through the power stage the tone will change, even if you don't crank the amp. Realistically you have a million more options, as there are devices to emulate power sections, so you could buy and use these as well. But at some point you'll end up using 10 different devices instead of a real guitar amplifier and at this point you could also just use a modeller like the Line 6 Helix or whatever is available out there... Much to read, but I just felt like I have to take my time because I'm sure you'll want to have the best sound possible. So here you go! Cheers Tobi
I have this amp and I have its MSDI connected to my interface with an xlr. The tonality of the guitar sound is fantastic however It is plagued with a high pitch huming noise and it isnt the natural hum of guitar signal. Is my method correct? Have I missed something? I press the ground lift button and it doubles the humming noise.
Hi there, your method seems to be correct. I was once living next to a railroad track, just a couple of feet away from the electricity poles of the trains and my recording gear was interfering with the huge current flowing through these railroad poles. There can be many reasons, but you could try some of this: - try to connect the amp on a different power plug and see if this helps - check a different XLR cable it if does the same - check whether you're placing your cable close to any electrical devices - you could try to add a cheap di box between the Peavey invective and your audio interface, especially when the di box has an additional ground lift switch - if you're sitting close to your computer, try backing up and see if this helps. I use a gaming pc and I can hear weird noises when I'm playing the guitar close to it, because the electronics interfere with my pickups (even when I use a guitar with emgs) using some specific amp simulations and settings it suddenly amplifies the noises by a lot, could be that the Peavey invectives MSDI output doesn't like such interference either. Worst case would be a broken MSDI unit in your amp, but this is going to be difficult to check unless you send it in for a check or you have a friend owning the invective as well... I'll keep my eyes open and when I remember some additional things that might help, I'll let you know!
@@TobiasJust just a little update, I have trouble shooted the issue more and I am certain my issue is down to a flault in the ground lift function on the amp. With all power turned off but with the amp connected to the wall socket, the hum is there. When unplugged it goes completely. When pressing the ground lift switch it changes from bad to worse. I have tried other xlrs and power cables/guitars interface inputs etc. I have even recreated the same environment using my other Peavey amp with a built in MSDI and the humming problem isn't here. I've contacted my supplier of the amp and should hopefully get it repaired or replaced using it's warranty.
@@TobiasJust I also believe a DI box with a ground lift switch would fix the symptoms of the issues, but I'm not too sure how I feel about spending money to get around a problem with my £1500 amp! However I don't enjoy the idea of having to wait for it to be repaired.
You have a couple of ways from here depending on the fx processor you're using. What brand and model are you using? The easiest way would be: Invective Loop 1 send --> FXP (processor) input --> apply effects --> FXP output --> Invective Loop 1 return --> MSDI to audio interface If you have multiple inputs and outputs in your multi fx processor, you could do the following: Guitar --> FXP --> Apply effects before amp (Distortion, Wah...) --> FXP Output 1 to guitar innput on the Invective --> Invective Loop 1 Send --> Input 2 FXP --> Apply effects like Reverb/delay --> FXP Output 2 --> Invective Loop 1 return --> MSDI to interface. The second one is more complicated, but allows you to place every effect where it needs to be (before the preamp, or in the fx loop). Make sure to adjust all signal levels accordingly. Be super careful doing this on amps where the FX loop comes AFTER the master volume, otherwise it will be very, very loud if you do a mistake.
@@BlastbeatsRtreats I'm not too familiar with the Axe FX 8, but you could do something like this: - Connect your guitar to the Axe FX Instrument Input - Connect the Out 1 (pre) of the Axe FX to the Invective guitar jack - Connect the Invective FX Send 1 to the In 2 (Post) of the Axe-FX - Connect the Out 2 (Post) of the Axe FX to the Invective Return 1 - Connect the MSDI Output to your recording interface The problem is the Axe FX doesn't have two separate loops (basically it's 1,5 loops). With devices like the Line 6 Helix you have a guitar input and two sends / two returns, which allows you to feed the MSDI back into the Helix. Unluckily you can't do this with the Axe FX 8 because it has not enough return jacks on the backside. You can still use various preamp models of the Axe FX, though you will always hear it through the Invective Poweramp (which is fairly neutral sounding to befair) but colored by the MSDI speaker simulation. Keep in mind the Invective MSDI tries to mimic the impedence curve of the connected guitar cabinet, so connecting different guitar cabs and speakers changes the sound of the MSDI cab simulation to some extend...
I've got a ton of feedback noise when trying to use the direct out on my 120 head. Any suggestions? I've got it set to ground on the back of the head too. Lift obviously makes it way worse. Going direct into a 4i4 into mono channel in Cubase.
The direct out on this amp is lacking!!!! you can get a better tone with a good dialed vst! buzz ,buzz fizz, fizz! this is disappointing to me because it's awsome tone and direct out recording capabilities is the whole reason for the purchase but it only sounds great through a cab "so" it now collects dust and I'm stuck running a hughes andKettner grandmiester 40 deluxe in its place because it's a way better direct line system but I'd sure like to have the bite and dgent tone from this invective! Its just Too bad it don't have a better cab sim line out.
![[UA] NAVI vs MOUZ | BO5 | IEM Rio 2024](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/CMBYk0cbGoA/mqdefault.jpg)
Thanks so much for the excellent demo! The MSDI is such an unconventional feature, that some users really don't get it until they actually TRY it and play with the levels. Unlike most DIs, the MSDI provides a mic-simulated version of the speaker output of the amp that works against the speaker that it is connected to to reproduce that speaker's character. You can also use it with a dummy load to get NO contribution from the speaker for running into IRs, etc..
Hi John, thank you so much for your comment! You did a fantastic job with this amp, seriously. I've been in love with the 6505 sound since I started playing the guitar as a young kid and I always dreamed about a more flexible 6505 with a ton of modern features. Then you guys released the Invective... It's a true masterpiece that finally ended my tone hunt after almost 20 years.
Thanks for your work on this amp John! Incredible amplifier!!!
@Tobias....me too. Been wanting to do this one since High School! If I could have put an Ultra Plus EQ on the Crunch, it would have been my dream amp.
@@johnfields8745 Thats a good point for the next generation of 6505's. :o)
By the way, how can the MSDI know what sort of speakers are connected to the Peavey Invective? Are you somehow measuring the impedance curve of the connected speaker? The Invective got a huge fanbase already and I'm trying to feed them a bit more details in the forums.
@@TobiasJust .... it's dumb. There's a simple passive filter that does an outgoing SM57, "one inch from the outside of the cone simulation" on the signal that is at the speaker jack. The impedance curve is inherently transposed to that filter by means of Ohm's Law. It's too simple not to work. Obviously, the effects of volume in the ears can't be accounted for, nor cone breakup; however, the character of this "simulation" holds for all practical purposes.
How do you use the MSDI output on your Peavey Invective 120? Could you explain it to me? Is it even possible to use it for "silent" recording, or do you have to have it turned up loud through the cab as well in order to get a good signal (or any signal at all) from the MSDI output? If it is possible to record with it without having the amp cranked up loud, AND still sound good, could you please share/explain the steps you use to do so? I would really appreciate it. As you know, Peavey included nothing on how to use the MSDI output in the Invective 120 owner's manual, they just show it in a numbered breakdown of the back panel in which they give its name and a brief description of what its function is supposed to be, but nothing on how to use it what so ever.
Just watched your Invective video onthe other channel. One again, excellent work. Subscribed!!
Hi there,
Thank you! I'm happy you enjoyed the video even though it is exhaustingly long. :)
Thanks for the sub, too!
Cheers
Tobi
Questions: Do I still need to load the head with a cab, if using the DI out of a head like this, or is it only using the pre-amp and emulation?
Can I run this through a cab, AND DI out to record and play at the same time?
This is the best channel for guitar!
@tobiasjust I own an Invective, do you need a di box between the msdi and the interface?
I have the same amp and 2 ESP E-ii's. Rock on man!!!
Hey mate, thanks for the comment! Which ones do you have? Absolutely love these guitars, honestly my favorites of all guitars I've tried!
@@TobiasJust I have the White E-ii Arrow with a hardtail bridge and the Purple Sparkle 7 string Horizon Baritone with a 27 inch scale.
@@300WINMAG360 Holy ****, I just looked these guitars up. Absolutely beautiful pieces! I can imagine not everyone liking the purple, but I love such guitars because they are pretty rare and unique. Good ones!
I would like to use it to record in my daw Any thing I need to know about doing that
Any chance you could do a vid where you dial in a recording tone using the MSDI? I'm currently in the process of reamping direct and couldn't find much on what others are doing with this amp in that situation. Great video!
Ah, I see you are one of the other 9 ppl that own this amp XD as an invective owner I appreciate your vids.
@@TobiasJust I love it. I can’t see myself needing another amp since I play metal. I haven’t even wanted another one.
@@TobiasJust no other amps make sense with the tones and how feature rich it is. I agree completely
@@steveb1413 Hahaha! I've been wanting this amp for more than a year now and it's always being pushed back here in Canada. I just looked and we're supposed to receive them in February but it's been delayed like this for a big while now so I I'll probably end with another amp at some point lol I don't know why thought there aren't many Invective overall anyway...it's true that not a lot of people seem to have them when it sounds that great with a ton of usable features.
@@bengirard1984 I can totally understand with the price of the amp vs modelers and not needing the huge amp. I got it way before I was into digital modeling. Even now I always a/b my presets against the invective.
Great video. Got a question. If I want to record direct out using invective 120 into a tascam dp32sd portastudio do I need a load box? The portastudio has built in cab simulators I believe
Thank you! It depends on what you'll want to do with the amp Technically you have a lot of different ways to go with different pros and cons:
Using the MSDI:
- You need to connect a cab to load the power amp section, otherwise you'll roast your amp
- The MSDI always provides a miced cab sound, so you're not allowed to run it through a second cab emulation (Like the one of your Tascam mixing desk), otherwise it will sound bad and dull
Using the MSDI with a load box:
- You connect a load box instead of a guitar cab, so the amp is totally silent even if cranked
- Then you can use the MSDI signal for silent recording or to please the FOH with a silent stage on live gigs.
- Downside: The MSDI has a unique feature that tries to emulate the cab that has been connected. When you use a cheap loadbox with a resistive load, the impedance curve doesn't match to real guitar speakers, resulting in different tonal behaviour in the bass, mids and heights. This effect is worse the more you crank your amp. However, there are reactive load boxes which emulate impedance curves of specific speakers, which you might want to consider. But I noticed there are differences in between them and some sound brighter, some sound darker.
Using a load box without MSDI:
- Load box to your guitar amplifier, so it's silent
- Usually good load boxes have a XML jack to get the signal of your amp on line or mic level. However, this will sound bad, bright and harsh without a cab simulation
- You'll want to run this signal through your Tascams cab simulation and then you have a finished sound. This is a good option in case you should not like the MSDI sound.
- You can go even further by buying some devices that can load IR's (Two Notes CAB M Plus) and use these, so you can use your favorite IR's on live scenarios on Tube amps. This is good if both the Tascam Cab simulation or the Peavey MSDI are just not your cup of tea...
Last solution:
- Keep your cab connected to your Guitar amplifier
- Activate the FX Loop and connect your FX-Send to your Tascam guitar cab simulation
- Leave the FX return on your amp untouched!
- Amp should be silent if the FX loop is not parallel, but you got a signal for cab simulation.
- Downside: You're not going through your power amp section, which will have an impact on your tone. You have no power amp distortion, saturation, SAG and all that stuff that you like when cranking up tube amps that are designes for.
- BUT: The Invective is OK to be used that way, since the poweramp section was designed to not sag and distort a lot. The main tone comes from the preamp section. It will sound a little different though, since just running through the power stage the tone will change, even if you don't crank the amp.
Realistically you have a million more options, as there are devices to emulate power sections, so you could buy and use these as well. But at some point you'll end up using 10 different devices instead of a real guitar amplifier and at this point you could also just use a modeller like the Line 6 Helix or whatever is available out there...
Much to read, but I just felt like I have to take my time because I'm sure you'll want to have the best sound possible. So here you go!
Cheers
Tobi
@@TobiasJust Just the info I needed! Excellent timing. Hope your 2023 is blessed with heavy chuggz and sick riffs.
Nice Video 😊👍
I have this amp and I have its MSDI connected to my interface with an xlr. The tonality of the guitar sound is fantastic however It is plagued with a high pitch huming noise and it isnt the natural hum of guitar signal. Is my method correct? Have I missed something? I press the ground lift button and it doubles the humming noise.
Hi there, your method seems to be correct. I was once living next to a railroad track, just a couple of feet away from the electricity poles of the trains and my recording gear was interfering with the huge current flowing through these railroad poles. There can be many reasons, but you could try some of this:
- try to connect the amp on a different power plug and see if this helps
- check a different XLR cable it if does the same
- check whether you're placing your cable close to any electrical devices
- you could try to add a cheap di box between the Peavey invective and your audio interface, especially when the di box has an additional ground lift switch
- if you're sitting close to your computer, try backing up and see if this helps. I use a gaming pc and I can hear weird noises when I'm playing the guitar close to it, because the electronics interfere with my pickups (even when I use a guitar with emgs) using some specific amp simulations and settings it suddenly amplifies the noises by a lot, could be that the Peavey invectives MSDI output doesn't like such interference either.
Worst case would be a broken MSDI unit in your amp, but this is going to be difficult to check unless you send it in for a check or you have a friend owning the invective as well...
I'll keep my eyes open and when I remember some additional things that might help, I'll let you know!
@@TobiasJust cheers for this bud, I will try a DI box but it does seem strange why it's doing this. Have one that you recommend?
@@TobiasJust just a little update, I have trouble shooted the issue more and I am certain my issue is down to a flault in the ground lift function on the amp. With all power turned off but with the amp connected to the wall socket, the hum is there. When unplugged it goes completely. When pressing the ground lift switch it changes from bad to worse. I have tried other xlrs and power cables/guitars interface inputs etc. I have even recreated the same environment using my other Peavey amp with a built in MSDI and the humming problem isn't here. I've contacted my supplier of the amp and should hopefully get it repaired or replaced using it's warranty.
@@TobiasJust I also believe a DI box with a ground lift switch would fix the symptoms of the issues, but I'm not too sure how I feel about spending money to get around a problem with my £1500 amp! However I don't enjoy the idea of having to wait for it to be repaired.
so i can record straight into a daw with the amp?
@tobiasjust I bought XLR-F-TRS -M plugged into msdi, how do I place fx processor tp record wet signal?
You have a couple of ways from here depending on the fx processor you're using. What brand and model are you using? The easiest way would be: Invective Loop 1 send --> FXP (processor) input --> apply effects --> FXP output --> Invective Loop 1 return --> MSDI to audio interface
If you have multiple inputs and outputs in your multi fx processor, you could do the following:
Guitar --> FXP --> Apply effects before amp (Distortion, Wah...) --> FXP Output 1 to guitar innput on the Invective --> Invective Loop 1 Send --> Input 2 FXP --> Apply effects like Reverb/delay --> FXP Output 2 --> Invective Loop 1 return --> MSDI to interface.
The second one is more complicated, but allows you to place every effect where it needs to be (before the preamp, or in the fx loop). Make sure to adjust all signal levels accordingly. Be super careful doing this on amps where the FX loop comes AFTER the master volume, otherwise it will be very, very loud if you do a mistake.
@TobiasJust Ax fx 8 ,I want to utilize 4cm ,if those signals come through the msdi that would be my preferred method.
@@BlastbeatsRtreats I'm not too familiar with the Axe FX 8, but you could do something like this:
- Connect your guitar to the Axe FX Instrument Input
- Connect the Out 1 (pre) of the Axe FX to the Invective guitar jack
- Connect the Invective FX Send 1 to the In 2 (Post) of the Axe-FX
- Connect the Out 2 (Post) of the Axe FX to the Invective Return 1
- Connect the MSDI Output to your recording interface
The problem is the Axe FX doesn't have two separate loops (basically it's 1,5 loops). With devices like the Line 6 Helix you have a guitar input and two sends / two returns, which allows you to feed the MSDI back into the Helix. Unluckily you can't do this with the Axe FX 8 because it has not enough return jacks on the backside. You can still use various preamp models of the Axe FX, though you will always hear it through the Invective Poweramp (which is fairly neutral sounding to befair) but colored by the MSDI speaker simulation. Keep in mind the Invective MSDI tries to mimic the impedence curve of the connected guitar cabinet, so connecting different guitar cabs and speakers changes the sound of the MSDI cab simulation to some extend...
I've got a ton of feedback noise when trying to use the direct out on my 120 head. Any suggestions? I've got it set to ground on the back of the head too. Lift obviously makes it way worse. Going direct into a 4i4 into mono channel in Cubase.
Just saw someone else in the comments have the same issue. Emailing Chris from Peavey about it.
The direct out on this amp is lacking!!!! you can get a better tone with a good dialed vst! buzz ,buzz fizz, fizz! this is disappointing to me because it's awsome tone and direct out recording capabilities is the whole reason for the purchase but it only sounds great through a cab "so" it now collects dust and I'm stuck running a hughes andKettner grandmiester 40 deluxe in its place because it's a way better direct line system but I'd sure like to have the bite and dgent tone from this invective! Its just Too bad it don't have a better cab sim line out.