To those who commented about the Joe B method of feeding the strings through old string ball-ends when top wrapping… thanks for the tip! Tried it on a couple guitars and it’s working great so far
I don’t quite understand what this process is, threading the new strings through the old ends. How is this done? I’ve just changed my strings, lowered my tailpiece and top wrapped the new elixirs. I can’t really tell a difference but I haven’t played that much yet. It is nice to get the tailpiece closer to the body for aesthetic reasons - at the very least. I have one concern - I don’t regularly break strings but the way the wound strings wrap, the winds get pushed out of the way and these strings look like they might be more likely to break. Time will tell. Does using the old ends of the strings reduce this effect?
I'm sorry to say but during the sustain-test Dylan just let the strings ring longer, down to a lower volume. That’s not a fair way of testing. For the rest of it I hear no difference. There also is no logic behind most of the explanations Dylan gives. It is impossible that the strings would feel different while still having the same gage and tuning. There is no vibrating of the strings between the tailpiece and the bridge, so no energy gets lost there and top wrapping does not impact the sustain or the sound. If any energy gets lost its trough the neck and headstock. On de headstock the strings do vibrate! The only thing top wrapping might be useful for could be breaking of strings. But even that might be solved much more efficiently by making smooth the saddles (with steel wool).
@@RudySter-u9y I’m not convinced about the improved sustain because the tailpiece is closer to or even just touching the body of the guitar. But the reduced friction between the string and the saddle, allowing the string to stretch a tiny bit more, might explain the ‘slinkier’ feeling people report. I can’t say for sure that my guitar manifests this improved ‘slinkiness’ but it does seem so. I’m aware of the confirmation bias thing, though, so I’m not going to confirm it’s actually better. I do have concerns about breakage (although I haven’t had any) and tuning. If the strings are indeed sliding over the saddle more easily, if there is enough residual friction then maybe it will not hold tuning as well as it usually does. Various guitar heros using this trick doesn’t mean it’s better, just because you are a shit-hot guitarist doesn’t mean you aren’t subject to the same confirmation biases as the rest of us. But I’d have thought if it made tuning worse that I would have heard about it. I’m gonna continue to use the technique (next time with the ball ends, I’ve worked out what that means) until I have a reason not to. I don’t care about my tailpiece and if it gets scratched. I replaced the original in about 1989 anyway as the Gibson version rusted out and much of the plating came off.
@@julianmorrisco I don't think there's much against top wrapping, except for the visual aspect. It's just that it doesn't do anything useful. The sustain of the electric guitar is predominantly determined by the neck of the guitar and how thick and heavy it is. The Bridge is attached to the body and is not going to vibrate. The role of the tail peace is irrelevant. The distance between the tail peace and the bridge is too short to allow for the string to stretch a significant amount.
I have on old medicine bottle with a few dozen of them for string changes top wrapped. The ball-ends make it work. Better than bell ends I guess. :P (I am not sure yanks know what a bell end is, but I guess y'all can figure it out).
This reminds me of the story about the girl’s mother who always cut the end off of a ham before she baked it. When she asked her mother why she did it, the mother replied that that was the way her mother always did it. When the little girl asked her grandmother why she always cut the end off of the ham, the grandmother replied so it would fit in the pan. Seems some people imitate what others do without knowing why.
I heard no difference in sustain even with headphones and all that is subject to how hard you hit the strings. No one I know lets a guitar ring out that long anyway. All I know is my Les Paul plays easy, I bend a lot. My Tokai Les Paul, though set up exactly the same, bends a bit easier, I’m stunned over that one. I played my American deluxe Telecaster since early 2000 and always thought the strings bent easily on that. Years ago due to arthritis, I went to 8’s and there was only a tiny difference in sound but the bendability was great. I’ve been using the Paul (Gibson) for quite a while doing southern rock and blues. Just tonight prior to watching this video, I broke out the Tele and to my surprise, it was harder to bend in the upper scale than the Les Paul So, it’s tighter than my Les Paul. I learned years ago, that the lower the strings to the neck, the easier the strings bend. Doing southern rock I don’t mind a slight buzz on the low E because it’s amplified, Old Superlead, and you don’t hear it. Tonight I noticed the Tele neck had a little bit of a bow, just a bit, so I straightened it out, and the strings got a C hair easier to bend. I noticed it more because I’ve had some time off and my finger tips I from practicing now, got a little sore so I really felt the difference in bending. That’s my observations but, I’m going to try the over the top method. Now on my Paul’s, I always had the tailpiece raised halfway up because I did honestly feel a slight difference in bending.
I thought the 2nd strummed sample sounded more *growly* than the first. It's almost like a gain-effect. I've never owned a Les Paul; I generally play Floyd Rose equipped Strat-Style guitars, but what it sounds like to me, is how the sound changes when I change out the stock fine tuners on a Floyd Rose, with brass ones. It just adds this little bit of "Growl" to the tone. The same thing with my two non-Floyd guitars, which use saddles/blades similar to a Les Paul; when I changed their saddles/blades out with brass roller saddles, their sound *also* gained a bit of that growliness. So, basically what I heard when going from the 1st sample to the second, was the addition of the sort of growl I associate with adding brass into the vibration chain of an instrument. *However!!!* I want to point out... That if the volume knob got turned up slightly between the two samples (and the second sample *does* sound just slightly louder to me), then it's quite possible that what I was hearing, was just the effect of a little more gain in the signal chain. So, I can't tell with any amount of accuracy, whether the sound change I heard, had anything to do with what was done with the bridge. The difference between how something like brass in the vibration chain can affect a given instrument's sound, versus the effects of gain and such in the signal chain... Is that brass parts in the vibration chain *physically alter* the vibration characteristics of the instrument. So the effect is present *throughout* the volume range of the instrument AND affects how the instrument sounds when it's played acoustically. In this case, maybe there's a little more gain on the second sample, or if the tailpiece is making more *physical contact* with the body when it's decked, I'd assume it might be possible that there's more vibration getting transferred back and forth, which could conceivably affect the sound of the instrument.
Nice, sensible presentation. At first I thought Oh no, not another top-wrapping video! but I’m glad I watched. I’m not a big string-breaker, but I used to top-wrap because the tone was thicker, especially on the unwound strings and the action felt softer and easier to play. In Irving Sloane’s book Steel String Guitar Construction there is a chapter featuring James D’Aquisto and his archtop jazz guitars. Sloane relates how Jimmy D’A was able to control the action and tone of his guitars even after they were built by tweaking the length and the height of his ebony tailpieces. Shortening the tailpiece creates more string length behind the bridge and makes the strings feel softer because the extra length allows the strings to be more flexible. Some people say that the string tension is a constant, which may be scientifically accurate, but guitars with shorter tailpieces are definitely easier to play. By the same token, D’Aquisto told Mr. Sloane that raising the tailpiece would soften volume and enrich tone. This is also true because the shallower break angle over the bridge exerts less downward pressure on the bridge and the top of the guitar, so notes are fatter but die out more quickly. Some people can hear the difference and others can’t, but I think Jimmy D’A knew a thing or two about tone. Top-wrapping the strings on a solid body guitar does both of the things that are mentioned in Irving Sloane’s book. Obviously the break angle is shallower, but also the string length behind the bridge is slightly longer, which most people don’t realize until you point it out to them. Another thing that D’Aquisto used to do was to substitute a solid, one-piece non-adjustable bridge if the customer asked for more sustain. All of this makes perfect sense in the context of top-wrapping. One thing most people don’t understand about top-wrapping is that you will have to bend your strings slightly farther in order to achieve the same change in pitch. It’s not a big difference, but it’s definitely a real phenomenon. I used to play on a set of.011 to .046 strings. It was a regular Slinky set with an .011 substituted for the standard high e. Top-wrapping gave me the best of both worlds-big thick strings that sounded and played great. Nowadays I flip some of my guitars and I don’t like to scar the tailpiece. I also use a.009 to .042 set so I don’t need to top-wrap in order to get the action I prefer. I build my own electric guitars from scratch, and on a stop tailpiece/tuneomatic style hardware setup I always put the tailpiece twice as far from the bridge as on a Gibson Les Paul. The difference in action and tone is absolutely amazing. You can put a set of tens on my guitars and they sound like tens but they play almost as easily as nines. Thanks for this video and if you have read my comment all the way to the end you have the patience of Job!
Great Post! Thanks. I too don't like scarring the tailpiece. I own a Les Paul and an SG (both top wrapped) and purchased a replacement tailpiece for both so in the event I do want to flip. I have a shiny, new, unscarred tailpiece for the new owner. Again thanks for your post. Cost 65 bucks for each guitar but adds piece of mind for me so well worth it IMHO
I have a Heritage 535 that came with "standard" through the tailpiece and after watching this video tried top wrapping - wow the difference was amazing. There is a whole new quality to the sound. I have a Heritage Johnny Smith and the sound of the strings resonating between the bridge and the tailpiece adds subtle harmonics to the sound, the piano effect. Top wrapping the 535 added a similar harmonic quality to the sound. Thank you, I have been playing for 56 years and this gave me a new reason to play more.
Checking out the tone variations WITHOUT plugging the guitar in brings surprising results - place your ear on the upper bout and listen carefully. My best results happened when the strings only contacted the bridge saddles, not the bridge breakover. Some overtones were noticed. Topwrapped strings moved around a bit until they settled in after playing a few songs! Thanks for this well thought out video. Good job!
You are a very good teacher. I don’t say that lightly because I have studied learning theory for many years. Your coverage of this topic was very helpful. I intend to keep top wrapping my guitars if only to decrease string breakage on stage or during recording sessions. Very good job!
Top wrapping cured my tuning issues on 339 instantly. I’ve had 2 previous techs work on my guitar. Third guy recommended this for the tuning. And it actually worked!
@@AndykWilhelm kinda weirds me out. are the notches in the saddles cut deep enough to accept say 1/2 the diameter of the string? if so , top wrapping might be changing enough of the angle to keep string from bottiming out & pinching the string.
I can't explain why from a physics point of view, but I had the same experience. Top wrapping solved tuning issues and also seemed to make the intonation dead perfect, two things that I was always fighting.
Thank you for dispelling the myth that it affects the tension of bends! It's never made sense to me when people suggest that it does. Between the nut and saddle, the string needs a precise amount of tension (based on the gauge of string) to be in tune. If it has less tension you have either dropped in pitch or changed the scale length (in which case your frets won't be in line with your intonation). One could argue that because there is less pressure on the bridge the string is allowed to slide over the saddle more when bending, but that would actually counteract the bend by lengthening the string until it can't slide further (and we're talking fractions of a millimeter here).
@@mattandcandle here’s the unique thing about these bridges. It’s that extra length of string behind the bridge that makes it easier to bend. The tension is the same for a particular tuning and string gauge. Over wrapping gives you just a little bit more string length to work with and make the string easier to bend. Think of the string as a lever. The longer the lever the easier it is to move something.
@panzerlieb If that is the case, a guitar with a bigsby must be ridiculously easy to bend. Is that actually the case? (I've never actually tried one long enough to notice")
@panzerlieb Also, assuming that the length of string outside of the scale length affects the tension, we would have to agree that for the length between nut and tuning peg as well. So, using a locking nut on a guitar would make it harder to bend as well (I'd try comparing the difference if I still had my old ibanez). I could still be wrong, but I still haven't heard an explanation for that that makes sense to me. At the end of the day, it doesn't matter. As long as I can hear the correct pitch and get it there, I'm happy. Sometimes a guitar that makes you work harder for it gives it character (not always).
I’m more of a fender guy, but I’m laughing all the way through this because I totally get it… It’s like all the geeky discussions we have about how to float your trem, how many springs and which aftermarket springs are better… and talk of roller nuts, etc. I do love all of this stuff. Enjoy your deck bridges!
I love strats! I'm just starting out and would like some pointers please. What aftermarket springs are best ? Or what overall spring are best ? I have no idea about any of that stuff. Also how many springs should one use ?
The first guy I saw who did Top Wrapping was Duane and that was in 1969. I asked him why he did it and he said it was to make the tension less and make it easier to play.
I saw a guitarist with Screaming Lord Sutch & The Savages in 1963 who top wrapped his Gibson 335! My view is that soundwise at gig volume you won't hear any difference.
You all should try Malcolm Youngs (RIP) rig. Biggest strings that you cant even bend.😅 After while I got used to it and play solo with that guitar. I dont use effects and a bit of overdrive. Sustain comes from my fingers/hand.
I don't believe that, the tension to get your tuning on A to 440hz is pretty much the same string tension. And if you top wrap the string gets a bit longer cause it's half way the tailpiece when it loses contact to the tailpiece, so if there would be a difference, than it would have a higher tension. Shorter scale guitars have lower tension cause the string is shorter. So standard tailpiece setup would probably have lower tension if there is any measurable difference at all. probably all in one's head. If you believe it that makes it true, no matter the science. if you want less tension, play with slinkier strings.
I didnt have an idea of this before your video. It makes a lot of sense to wrap. Not only to prevent the breaking thing but because the string/guitar contact increases a lot. Thank you very much.
Thank you, that was awesome. I get a lot of grief for top wrapping and the reason I top wrap is kind of silly. The new to me guitar just somehow didn’t feel right. I had a professional setup and tried a lot of things, but it just wasn’t comfortable. I decided to try the top wrap and it all fell into place. So that is how I play it and I think it looks cool!
The old guys wrapped the strings on top because that was how one did it with the earlier single stop tailpiece configurations and more what they were used to. My 1955 had a single stop and that is just how you strung it.
I‘m a legend in my own mind and I‘m a top wrapper from way back A little tip is to first feed the string through a ball end so the sharp part of the end wrap isn‘t right on the top of the tail piece
Hmm good idea, I just top wrap the wound strings to avoid this. I started top wrapping because of snapping wound stribgs at the saddle. Gave the saddle slot a filing and sanding and I top wrap the bottom three strings and it seems to work well as a compromise. In theory you could load them normally then wrap below the tailpiece and over it, should be enough extra length to keep the sharp ends of ball end strings away from your hand.
Great video. Another little piece of advice for people with Nashville bridges; top wrapping is actually pretty useful due to the width of the bridge requiring a shallower break angle than with an ABR1. On a Les Paul, this avoids the need to raise the tail way off the top. You should always make sure that your strings are clearing the back of the bridge comfortably, decking the tail is never a good idea unless top wrapped.
I've seen this debated in guitar mags for years, then in UA-cam videos. I've tried my les Paul both ways. I top wrap. Purely because I think it looks better and I feel I can feel the strings better when I mute with my right hand.
I had a Martin D-18 and the saddle slot was cut so close to the bridge pin holes that the end wrap of some of the strings would actually hang over the saddle. I saved ball ends so I could double up. Eventually the bridge cracked and had to be replaced… ending the problem.
I came here to write exactly this. You might get scoffed hands from the Tailpiece because strings might have "rough" ends or sometimes even loose threading. Keeping the balls from older strings and threading your strings through those before threading the strings through the tailpiece can save you a ton of hassle. And I have tried both kinds of string attachments and I prefer topwrapping my .9's.
AN EXCELLENT explaination of top wrapping ! I have one Les Paul set up this way and another set up as from the factory. For me, the lower string tension & slinky feel without going to a lower guage feels and sounds right for me.
In addition-you can take the "ball end" from your old strings and run a new string thru the "ball end"-doing this and you won't have the "kink" in the string which causes hand scrapes.
I submit your street cred increases exponentially when the fans in the front see you bleeding on your instrument. Cuz your beating your guitar like it owes you money.
Another tip when top wrapping is to clip the ball ends from old strings and put them on your new strings. The area where the nickel winds meets the ball end can have a tendency to break. Having the extra ball end reinforces the winds on the string making it less prone to breakage in that area.
@@SdMbL1not totally sure on this and I really should look at a string first but I'm lazy, I think the ball ends are hollow through the center, just clip the ball ends off the old strings and feed the new string through the center. I think that's what the original commenter is suggesting........ I could be totally wrong.
@@SdMbL1 Cut the balls off of the old string. Slip it over the new string so you have two balls at the end. Works really well. Without doing that sometime you break strings. Done it for years.
Thank you, good video. Maximum sustain occurs when the LEAST amount of energy is robbed from the vibrating string by other parts of the system. So energy dissipated in the body, via the studs, and also the neck, headstock etc, all remove energy from the vibrating string and thus the pickup.
Just to add to this. The pickups don't pick up vibrations from the wood, they pickup metal moving in a magnetic field to create a signal. Wood in an electric instrument is an aesthetic, structural, and ergonomic choice.
I've always agreed with both these statements. I saw a video once where someone put fine sand on the guitar and strummed it . None of the sand moved at all . Tone wood is just a myth like so many other guitar ideas that have guitarists spending fortunes to achieve "toan".
@@demonicsquid7217 But if the wood vibrates then it can transfer the vibration back to strings making them also vibrate longer. Try playing a note without amplifier and then do the same with the guitar body touching a wooden table and notice the difference of the non amplified sound and how the vibration goes to table too. I'm not saying this makes any difference in sustain or sound, but it's just something that I have accidentally noticed when I have had my guitar touching a table. It could be that they all vibrate, but the vibration time is still the same. I don't really hear the difference when I do the same with amplified guitar.
@@ManWithoutThePants Not quite. The wood vibrating can only dissipate energy taken from the vibrating string. That energy is lost as heat in the molecules of the wood. This cannot 'add' energy to the string it can only remove it. So my original point stands. This does not mean it has no influence on the overall sound. A guitar would sustain like an organ if this were not the case. Your comment about the table confirms my point, that the wood of a table allows the strings vibrations (energy) to be more easily coupled to the surrounding air. This just allows even more of the string's energy to be dissipated. The fact that it sounds louder acoustically means more energy is being lost from the string into the table and air.
@@GuitarRyder11 Jim Lill tested tone wood and sustain, and found wood means absolutely nothing so much that you don't even need it. By the end of his testing, he had strings in thin air between a table and a shelf held down with motorcycle engines, with only a pickup mounted underneath, and it sounded so close to a full guitar that you couldn't pick it out of a blind test. Pickup, and pickup location along string + distance from string is basically the only thing on an electric guitar that affects tone.
On the road as a professional in the 70s top wrapping was commonly attributed to Ronnie Montrose, and we called it by that name. Still doing it all these years later.
Thanks for the details explanation. For the sustain test. If we look at the graph, the tail wrapping method will probably have the graph line, volume peaked for about 9 secs before it went gradually quiet, while the decked and raised tail piece seems to drop volume quicker at 7 to 8 and 5 to 6 secs respectively.
ALSO check and see if your nut slots are ideal for the string gauge your using... And that the entry angle of the strings isn't rubbing across a sharp edge on the nut...
Good video. In order to fully benefit from raising the strings at the tailpiece (whether you top wrap or just raise the bridge) one has to also ensure that the slots on top of the bridge match the string shape, gauges and angles and neck radius. Gauged nut files also work on bridge pieces. Shaping the bridge slots enhances the ability of the string to slide on top of the bridge and renormalize the tension after string bends or after energized playing dynamics. A “V” shaped notch on the bridge and round wounds are going to grip the string and not permit one from fully benefiting from the change in break angle from tailpiece adjustments
I have been top wrapping my guitars ever since I heard an interview with Zakk Wilde talking about it when he was playing with Qzzy. Thank you for the clarification because I forgot the original reason I started doing it.
I also switched to top wrapping a couple years ago, mainly because of the break angle argument (and looks, lol). But i always think it's funny that people really think it would reduce string tension and make bending easier, like the amount of tension you apply to the string is what gives it that pitch you're at, only way to reduce tension is to use thinner strings or downtune.
Just because those bits of string aren't within the play area it doesn't mean that those bits are out of play. When you bend a note it draws from string outside the play area as it's being stretched. When the tail piece is set high or top wrapped there is more string to draw from behind the bridge due to the slackened tension there. When you lower the tailpiece it increases the tension behind the bridge reducing the amount of string to draw from. More slack requires bigger bends to meet your target pitch. More tension means smaller bends to meet target pitch.
A very good, sensible comparison with no outlandish claims about the differences. Basically, it comes down to personal preference! Thank you. I don't top wrap, but if I need to raise the tailpiece to stop the strings touching the back of the bridge I use Faber locking studs (or even Faber spacer rings under the regular studs). It stops the studs tilting forwards and (I like to think) gives a more solid contact between the studs/tailpiece and the body.
I started doing this a couple of years ago when I switched to an aluminum tailpiece on my korean Epiphone SG, and man! The guitar responds so much more to my playing, and with a Seymour Duncan '59 at the bridge it sounds and feels amazeballs.
Excellent video - I watch guitar videos all the time and this is the first time I see someone confronting this issue. I also Top Wrap and agree with all the points you made - makes sense!! Thanks Dylan!
I really heard the difference between the first 2 comparison, tail piece raised and fully down. I top wrap my strings and have been doing it for a few years now, it just felt more comfortable when I did it on a guitar I have been using for 20 years. One thing to add to the video, I use a couple of ball strings as a buffer between the tail piece and the actual ball end of the string to avoid string break from the kink, this is a tip from Joe Bonamassa tech.
To clarify, you mean putting a non-wound string or two at the part of the stopbar where the strings kink? Or...? I'd like to know because I've got a Gibson that needs strings - and if Joe's tech does it, it's likely worth trying.
@@bveracka Sorry, I think I was not precise in my reply. You take 2 of the ball end (without the string) you insert the string in the hole in the middle of the ball end so that the string as its ball end it is wrapped around stopping the 2 ball ends you just inserted not falling through. You then insert the string through the stop bar (tail piece) for normal top wrap. I hope it clarify my previous statement. Note that you need 12 ball ends to do it to all 6 strings.
Man, whether top wrapping makes a difference or not, your presentation and explanations are quite excellent. My PRS SE Mira has a top wrap tailpiece from the factory. It plays great and sounds good, too.
I top wrap to achieve greater aural awareness and paint my own sound with an enlightening brush of creative goodness.😎 (in other words, I'm full of it)
I actually need to change the strings on my sg, it's one of my most amazingly easy to play guitars( all maple) if it works I will have to quit playing bc I will be in heaven( can't do it on my tele, it's a string thru...)
Thanks for taking the time, For acoustic I have taken to opening a sealed pack of Martin M140 and leaving for a year before fitting. Takes forward planning for how often you change strings. Haven't tried it with electric but you would likely hear a difference. Metal properties change with time,there's a sweet spot age that is a personal preference. Maybe you have already been there with an open pack that had a 1st taken out and wondered why the set sounded different when fitted.
The only reason I top wrap is because it keeps my strings from breaking easily. When they’re going through the bridge, the break angle is so heavy that the saddle basically slices your string and breaks it. when I top wrap, There’s way less tension on the saddles and the string last much longer.
Does top wrapping increase the chance of string breakage near the ball end? Cause unwinding? That folding of the string there looks like it might. I currently have the strings touching the rear of the bridge and they certainly do snap there, occasionally. I raised the tailpiece but there's a lot of thread showing and i fear the bolts pulling out. I'm contemplating taking it to a luthier for a complete set up, with the bridge lowered, but wonder if it would it be possible to maintain the same action through truss rod adjustment.
@@eagleowlishIn my opinion: I'd think top wrapping would alleviate a sharp point of vibration by bringing the string across a radius all while presenting a clean look that's snags less.
I definitely appreciate your honesty. I do have an SG that I have raised the tailpiece to where I don't like the look, so I am going to try top wrapping next time I changes strings and lower the tailpiece. Should look much better.
Wow. Since I play fingerstyle, it's rare for me to break a string, but yesterday I broke the high E on my Midtown Standard. I'm definitely top-wrapping it today. When I was a teenager, I had '79 LP Custom that constantly broke strings at the bridge - now I know the stopbar was likely just too low. I can't believe after nearly 25 years of being a Gibson fanboy that I overlooked this. At any rate, bravo. Great video!
I learned a trick from Billy Gibbons and Elwood. If you TOP WRAP, you take the ball of the old string and feed it down to the new string, resulting in two balls/rings on each string. That saves a fortune on strings. They hardly ever break. Plus, the best tailpieces for this are made by Music City Bridge.
@@MrJohnnyDistortion NO! Don't cut anything. The extra ball keeps the string wrap (holding the ball) slightly more under the tailpiece. The payoff is less string breaking and slightly more sustain.
Great video. Just one detail I don’t think I caught you mention (and my apologies if you did). Can top wrapping cosmetically and/or physically damage the tailpiece in case we don’t like it and want to go back to normal? Like is there any risk of scratching or grooves developing on a typical Epiphone and/or Gibson branded tailpiece, particularly with rhythm players who tend to dig deep, shall we say? 😂 I always wanted to try this setup on my friend’s Epiphone Modern LP when I occasionally borrow it while she’s in town visiting her family, but I don’t want to possibly damage her guitar when she doesn’t seem to like that setup and wants a pristine looking tailpiece. I mean, I don’t think I saw any obvious scratches or grooves on your tailpiece, but figured I’d ask anyway. Tyvm! P.S. Have you seen the Dylan Talks Tone video on this subject? He focused mostly on whether raising the tailpiece kills the sustain and less so on the over-wrapping part (though he mentioned it) - very interesting thoughts and demo.
The tailpiece on my Les Paul is made of aluminum and there are some grooves forming. I have also noticed that the strings can slide around on top of the tailpiece, just a tiny bit, which causes tuning issues.
It will absolutely scratch the tailpiece, but it's an easily swappable part. Of course don't do this if you have some extremely valuable vintage guitar and you want to keep all parts in original condition.
Good analysis! I personally prefer the look of the raised tailpiece (clean top) over the top wrapping (tailpiece closer to body). But adjusting the height of the tailpiece is an important step. I do it more for playability than for broken strings however.
The same on my firebird. It has a fuller tone, I feel the note through the body. I don't use distortion , I want to squeeze as much tone as I can out of the guitar. Kinda like a house with a poorly mounted gutter, water's gonna go wherever, but with a proper mounted gutter water is going right where you need it to.
This was really very informative. In theory, everything presented here makes perfect sense. I have seen a lot of "tricks" developed over the years (through the 60's and 70's), to squeeze all the sustain possible out of the guitar itself 'cause face it, back in the day you were not going to get it from the amps. When I listened to the various setups, I didn't notice too much change from the listeners standpoint, so I have to assume that this is really the players choice of feel, and what the Guitar is going to give the player. Which is really the most important thing. I am going to try the string over method next time I string up the LP. By the way, I love that LP you have, it does sound really very good. Now! If you could help me get more sustain out of my Roadhouse Strat, without losing the whammy set...
@dylanadamsguitar For those of us who don't want to Top-Wrap the Tailpiece, which has the possibility of causing other unwanted or negative effects such as: Adding extra string length (by wrapping the extra string around the Tailpiece) that makes stretching the strings feel different. FYI: If you watch the video from @DylanTalksTone, he actually finds out that the extra string length from Top-Wrapping causes you to need to bend your strings further to reach the same desired pitch/notes and you have to use more pressure/tension to accomplish that then when NOT being Top-Wrapped... Having to add extra string end nuts to prevent the twisted end of the strings from extending past the Tailpiece to prevent potential rattling, discomfort like getting scratched when playing, or creating a sharp string angle off the twisted end possibly causing more breakage. Plus the additional time and complication added to changing your strings. And scratching off the finish on the top of your Tailpiece. There is an alternative that allows you to get the effect of flooring the Tailpiece against the guitar like Top-Wrapping (which many believe positively effects your tone and playability); and still avoid putting too much pressure on your Bridge from excessive string angle by having your strings lying on the edge of your bridge that can cause it to collapse if you floor your Tailpiece without wrapping the strings. You can get the Farber Tone-Lock TP-’59 Tailpiece (or similar model, depending on your year/model guitar). Essentially, the Tailpiece can be adjusted to the proper height needed (to keep the strings off the back of the bridge at any chosen angle) while still having the Tailpiece metal directly touching down to the guitar by using the Tailpiece Spacers (which lock down against the metal bushings and the wood body of the guitar). And because of this locking design, string changes are a breeze too without the Tailpiece falling off as an extra bonus!
I'm sold! I can clearly hear the difference in tone and sustain. It's really promenade with the chords. The length of the actual notes is longer BEFORE any fadeout. GEEZ! Now I have to change 6 Les Pauls! 🤣🤣
The idea that the strings "feel slinkier" because of reduced tension has always made me chuckle. A string of a certain gauge, at a certain scale, is tuned to a note at a specific tension. The ONLY ways to reduce the tension on strings at a given scale are to either lower tuning or decrease gauge. Period. 10s tuned to E standard at 24 3/4" scale are the same tension whether you top wrap, normal feed, bottom wrap, use a wraparound tailpiece, a LP Jr tailpiece, a fine tuner tailpiece, a roller bridge, etc. They can only be that note at that specific tension.
Friction at nut, bridge and frets (if unpolished) is also a factor in slinkyness. By top wrapping you raise the strings ever so slightly which in turn makes the angle that the string makes contact with the bridge less severe resulting in less tension put on the bridge by the strings and thereby less friction acting on the strings. Less friction = less resistance = more slink.
Alright, good advise, well-put together video, clear and informative, easy to listen to voice...you got my sub, man. Much appreciated. One thing I might add is that top wrapping may wear down the finish on the tailpiece over time but these are easily replaced if such things bother you. I will for sure be coming back here to learn and enjoy. Thank you.
The notes will sing more if done the traditional way, its physics. If you really want it to feel slinkier, you can raise the stop bar, and/or select lighter guage strings. I always use 9s on my LP and raise the stop bar to adjust the break angle.
Thanks for the video. I raised the tailpiece on an Epiphone LP a few years ago, and after some time I noticed the tailpiece had started to move towards the bridge. The screws weren’t perfectly stiff and started to bend, and it looked like I had ruined the guitar 😱 Thankfully I could just screw them back in, and that’s why I used top-wrapping instead.
The guy from Aerosmith too. Seems reasonable to have the threads turned in all the way for stability. I had a L6 deluxe, string thru, harmonica bridge, the strings alway contacted the bridge before the saddles. Tuning was always an issue on top of that. I still would love to have it back if the guy who stole it is reading this.
Top wrapped had it! Improved sustain, more full range tone without being either too warm or shrill. Switching all my ABR's and tunamatic's this week. THANKS
I put a schaller roller bridge on my les paul makes a big difference when bending strings . Very smooth and easy on your fingers . No rattles either unlike the tunamatic.
@peterprice8897 An old teacher of mine told me that they cause problems with intonation. The front of the tune-o-matic saddles is a straight plane that gives a 90 degree angle to the string, so when fretting, which pushes the string in towards the body, the point of contact of string to saddle does not change. Whereas with the roller bridge (which I always thought looked like a great idea), the point of contact would change - very slightly, but as you know, intonation is set by adjusting the length of the string, and even a minute change while playing would eff up the intonation. Did I explain that well enough? So, is this something that you've tested for? Are you certain that it does not mess with your intonation?
This trick absolutely works. I read about this in a Guitar World interview with Zakk Wylde 20 years ago, and tried it on my Les Paul. I've used it ever since, because it definitely prevents breaking strings.
Speaking as a luthier, top wrapping reduces the stress on the inserts which will keep the tail piece from developing a lean. (It does happen, especially with raised tail pieces)
If you do need your tailpiece up a little I would recommend using a washer or two (whatever it takes to get to desired height) so you can tighten the studs down good where the threads lock good and tight…. That will give you good vibration transfer and avoid buzzing
I top wrap so I can maximise sustain by having the tailpiece posts as far down as possible whilst avoiding the strings leaning on the back of the bridge leading to potential tuning glitches with the wound strings (not really a problem in truth) and a premature collapse of the bridge which will happen anyway over time. I personally can't tell a practical difference in tension any more than 'good mood' playing and 'bad mood' playing, if you know what I mean. I started typing this early on and at 4.30 minutes I suspect that we are in accord for the most part.
Great video Dylan. It certainly makes sense. I always thought the wrap around bridge themselves were better quality sound and sustain than the tailpiece types. Have a good one.
Exactly as expected. The body vibrations are not going to matter at all for the sound. Electric guitar pickups are not microphones, they don't care one slight bit about the wood vibrating more or less around them. The pickup simply cannot hear them. It might matter a tiny bit for sustain, depending on how much the string is dampened. But in that case you'd want the _least_ energy transferred to the body, not the most.
started top wrapping tears and years ago - helped a lot with string breakage!!! One top is that you may need to notch your low E string a little deeper - if I don't the low E will pop out of the saddle if playing really hard/chugging heavy stuff.
The tension on the string between the bridge and the nut is determined by the string (diameter, material, wrap, etc.) and the tuning pitch. That tension will always be the same for the same strings and tuning - regardless of what happens before the bridge or after the nut. The tension on the string behind the bridge has to balance the tension on the other side of the bridge. What is different is the how that tension is distributed in line with the string and into the bridge/guitar body. A simple free-body diagram with 3 vectors can be used to calculate the values based on the break angle. There is no way this could have any impact on how the strings feel playing because the tension on the strings is exactly the same regardless of the break angle behind the bridge.
It absolutely does make a difference in feel. As you say, tension is redistributed outside the play area while keeping the tension between nut and bridge constant. But, tension in the play area only remains constant until you bend a string. Just because those bits of string aren't within the play area it doesn't mean that those bits are out of play. When you bend a note it draws from string outside the play area as it's being stretched. When the tail piece is set high or top wrapped there is more string to draw from behind the bridge due to the slackened tension there. When you lower the tailpiece it increases the tension behind the bridge reducing the amount of string to draw from. More slack requires bigger bends to meet your target pitch. More tension means smaller bends to meet target pitch. Experiment by raising and lowering the tailpiece from one extreme to the other. Lower it to the body then tune it up and play for a few minutes. Then raise it. Tune up and play for a few minutes like that.
You are correct about the tension, but you're missing the point because tension isn't the only thing that impacts playability. For instance, is it easier to bend the string in the middle, as opposed to on, say, the second fret? Absolutely, even though it's the same string at the same tension.
@@boshi9 When you bend a string from the middle you draw an equal amount of slack from either side of the fretted note. When you move to the second fret you greatly reduce the amount of slack material to draw from on the nut side of the fret. The depth of a bend is limited by the tension on the short side of the fretted note regardless to how much slack is available from the long side. Second fret to the nut is about 1.5" of string. From the twelfth fret to the nut is 12" of string. You can stretch 12" of string much further than you can 1.5" of string. Raising and lowering the tailpiece alters the tension between the saddles and the tailpiece. It also alters the amount of down bearing pressure of the strings on to the saddles. Lowering the tailpiece increases down bearing. Raising decreases it. Less down bearing means less tension between the saddles and the tailpiece. Increased down bearing means greater tension between the saddles and tailpiece. With less downward pressure your bends pull more slack from behind the saddles which makes the strings feel looser (slinkier). With greater downward pressure there is less slack to draw from behind the saddles which makes the strings feel tighter. There is quite a bit of leeway in reducing downward pressure before it becomes detrimental to tuning and playability. That's what keeps the tension constant between the saddles and nut. What top-wrapping does is it decreases maximum downward pressure on to the saddles and increases the amount of slack material between the saddles and the tailpiece for your bends to draw from.
Thanks for sharing this, I have a 70,s gold top that I top wrapped, just to see if there was any difference, and I'd say there's something maybe tension wise but the most interesting aspect is this guitar stays in tune better, which I can't explain but it does.
I think the biggest difference is the feel of tension from the string. I prefer the tension that not top wrapping gives. I like my Less Paul to feel snappier, more like a strat feel, but Lester sound.
Slinkiness or more specifically tension on the strings is purely related to the gauge, the pitch it's tuned to and the scale length. (And maybe polished or not frets.) It has nothing to do with break angle. For a given string gauge, and scale length the tension always has to be the same for a specific pitch, regardless of the break angle. Also in the same sense that you might be getting more or less sustain from the depth of the tail piece posts you may also be getting more or less sustain because of more or less pressure on the saddles and bridge transferring into the body depending on the break angle. Just a thought.
A decked stop does not "transmit more vibration into the body." A decked stop is a more rigid body so better resists deformation/movement from the vibrating strings leading to more of that energy being retained by the string. Standard guitar pickups are magnetic transducers - they respond to string movement, not vibration of the wood underneath. The less of that string energy that is bled off by contact points/contact materials the more of it that will appear as signal at the output jack.
But, potentially, the body of the guitar and the string sympathetically resonate with each other via the strings could contact with the tuners, nut, bridge and tailpiece, thereby extending the length of time the string will vibrate for.
@@neighbourhoodmusician No. At least not unless you are talking about amplification feedback. That is another can of worms entirely. (mostly because it represents an additional energy source adding energy back into the system .) In the absence of such additional inputs, when you pick the string you add energy to the system, resulting in string vibration, which generates the output of the pickup. Unless you pick the string more the amount of energy present only dissipates. The wood can never give more energy back to the string than that which it absorbs. In reality it will always return much less than it absorbs. Because entropy and laws of thermodynamics are like that.
@@ThomasD66 Three points: 1. Guitar bodies absolutely do resonate and affect other bodies they touch (put a guitar body on a table and then play it) 2. That resonation clearly affects the strings because playing one string makes the others resonate and require muting. 3. We are absolutely always factoring amplification into this because that's how we play guitar. I don't think you can take body resonation out of the sustain question. It may have an extremely limited effect on tone but the body can certainly be factored into the question of sustain.
I have a lot of Vintage Guitar Magazines and one issue has an article about the debut of the Les Paul. It showed original catalog graphics of the first TOM models where the images were actually hand drawn instead of photographs. The artist had drawn the guitar with Top-Wrapped strings - meaning the guitar he was looking at was top-wrapped. That means they were top-wrapping the strings at the factory on some of the earliest Les Paul guitars with the TOM bridge.
I have read a book by "Gibson Guitars", and the first tailpieces were designed to originally be top wrapped. It has been awhile since I read the book, BUT from what I remember (and it makes complete sense), was that, back in the early days Gibson didn't have machines cutting out neck pockets in the bodies. The inconsistencies from neck angle pocket, to neck angle pocket, varied. You could have one guitar with the slightest neck angle and by the time the strings got to the bridge, the tailpiece could be slammed, or decked. However, the NEXT guitar could have a slightly steeper neck pocket. by the time the strings get to the bridge on this guitar, the bridge is higher, and also the tailpiece would have to be even higher, to compensate for the neck angle. So, it completely makes sense that a guitar with a steeper neck pocket angle, makes the neck have more angle, and makes the bridge have to be raised more, and top wrapping just makes sense. Now, over the past 35- 40 years or so, with more machining going into the guitar building process, the tolerances of neck pockets have become a lot tighter, and neck angles are a lot more consistent. I don't think ANY modern Les Paul would NEED to be top wrapped. I have a 1980 Les Paul that the neck angle is pretty steep. It's either top wrapped, or the tailpiece is up around an inch off the body, and there is STILL good break angles on the strings to the bridge. I have a few newer Les Paul's, and the neck angles seem very similar, and top wrapping is not necessary. Anyway... just passing on some info from Gibson themselves, and my own experience.
Actually, top wrapping induces a 90 degree bend out the back of the tail piece, with the string then curving over the arc of the tail piece top. The strings do not make a "U" turn of 180 degrees at any point.
@@stephengunterdc9651 Great Video 👍🏻 Another unforeseen issue was that the wire twist at the ball end extends through the tailpiece and can snag the palm of your hand. How I resolved this was to cut off the eyelets on the old strings, and laces the new set through them before installing. This acts as a shim that prevents the twist of wire from protruding through the back of the stop bar. 👍🏻
I began top wrapping my TOM bridge-equipped guitars because I kept having the issue of the wound strings snagging on the saddles and breaking off the winding. This was after I took my guitars to about 3 different repair shops and kept being plagued by the same issue. To my relief, the top wrapping remedied the issue and I only had to change my strings once a month versus once every week and a half.
Top wrap leads to better alignment with the saddle, that means better contact.. Also you have take into consideration about straight downward pressure on the saddle posts which changes when you raise or lower the tail piece..
Some guy on UA-cam used an oscilloscope testing the the same pickups/harness in different bodies and the differences were indiscernible....much to the chargrin of the "tone woods" officionados, I'm sure.. Your tests prove that unless you need a 28 second note over a 26 second note you're basically spinning your wheels. 🤘😎
Remove the stings from your guitar and tap the body. You’ll hear those taps through the amp. Wood does make a difference. Just because you may not be able to hear it, doesn’t mean it isn’t there.
It has nothing to do with tone or sustain. It is about reducing the break point angle over the bridge. It makes the strings easier to bend - like you’re using a slightly lighter gauge. That’s all.
Dr Physics then why is it more common for increased break angle/slammed tail pieces to cause bridges to buckle? ….spoiler alert….because your altering the manner in which the pressure is distributed on the load bearing surfaces…..
@@mateuszkorus300 is correct. This "top wrapping" technique results in a slightly longer string length. Incidentally, the same is true of guitars with zero frets.
I recommend you watch the video from @DylanTalksTone, he actually finds out that the extra string length from Top-Wrapping causes you to need to bend your strings further to reach the same desired pitch/notes and you have to use more pressure/tension to accomplish that then when NOT being Top-Wrapped. If that doesn't prove that extra string length can have some effect, try stretching a string wire across a room in your house to a particular pitch, and also a 2 inch long string to the same pitch, and see which one is easier for you to stretch up to a higher equal pitch. I have my guess on which string it will be...
@@alanagottalottasay997an increased break angle changes the direction of the force vector the string applies to the saddle (at the same string tension), therefore increasing the potential for the bridge to buckle, and also creates a higher stress riser in the strings, increasing the likelihood of a string break. Top wrap cannot change the string tension without changing the frequency or pitch, so if tension is the same, there's not going to be any real change in "slinkiness". Yeah, physics.
@@supadupahilton6848 yeah and the only reason why you Gibson Les Paul even exists today and no one today wants gibson not since JC Curliegh Restored Epiphone back to premium in 2020 ..so open mouth insert foot 🦶 you GIBSON fanboys are very good at that.. keep us entertained
Thanks for this; later this week, I'll be taking my Epi LP down and top wrapping. This vid pushed me over the edge; have been toying with the idea for ooh, going on 35+ years now, since I got my first electric (LP electric cheapo copy!!) Now, finally, I shall do this; string breakage is in many ways so much more important to my day to day... thank you very much!! (Just gotta dig my old bottleneck back out!! Along with my old Bluesbreaker pedal!!) 💜🌶🧠🌶💜
I also top wrap for the same reason- string breakage but also because I don't want the posts of the tail piece to become loose or bent from the forward pull of the strings.
To those who commented about the Joe B method of feeding the strings through old string ball-ends when top wrapping… thanks for the tip! Tried it on a couple guitars and it’s working great so far
I don’t quite understand what this process is, threading the new strings through the old ends. How is this done?
I’ve just changed my strings, lowered my tailpiece and top wrapped the new elixirs.
I can’t really tell a difference but I haven’t played that much yet. It is nice to get the tailpiece closer to the body for aesthetic reasons - at the very least.
I have one concern - I don’t regularly break strings but the way the wound strings wrap, the winds get pushed out of the way and these strings look like they might be more likely to break. Time will tell.
Does using the old ends of the strings reduce this effect?
I'm sorry to say but during the sustain-test Dylan just let the strings ring longer, down to a lower volume. That’s not a fair way of testing. For the rest of it I hear no difference. There also is no logic behind most of the explanations Dylan gives. It is impossible that the strings would feel different while still having the same gage and tuning. There is no vibrating of the strings between the tailpiece and the bridge, so no energy gets lost there and top wrapping does not impact the sustain or the sound. If any energy gets lost its trough the neck and headstock. On de headstock the strings do vibrate! The only thing top wrapping might be useful for could be breaking of strings. But even that might be solved much more efficiently by making smooth the saddles (with steel wool).
@@RudySter-u9y I’m not convinced about the improved sustain because the tailpiece is closer to or even just touching the body of the guitar. But the reduced friction between the string and the saddle, allowing the string to stretch a tiny bit more, might explain the ‘slinkier’ feeling people report.
I can’t say for sure that my guitar manifests this improved ‘slinkiness’ but it does seem so. I’m aware of the confirmation bias thing, though, so I’m not going to confirm it’s actually better.
I do have concerns about breakage (although I haven’t had any) and tuning. If the strings are indeed sliding over the saddle more easily, if there is enough residual friction then maybe it will not hold tuning as well as it usually does.
Various guitar heros using this trick doesn’t mean it’s better, just because you are a shit-hot guitarist doesn’t mean you aren’t subject to the same confirmation biases as the rest of us. But I’d have thought if it made tuning worse that I would have heard about it.
I’m gonna continue to use the technique (next time with the ball ends, I’ve worked out what that means) until I have a reason not to.
I don’t care about my tailpiece and if it gets scratched. I replaced the original in about 1989 anyway as the Gibson version rusted out and much of the plating came off.
@@julianmorrisco I don't think there's much against top wrapping, except for the visual aspect. It's just that it doesn't do anything useful.
The sustain of the electric guitar is predominantly determined by the neck of the guitar and how thick and heavy it is. The Bridge is attached to the body and is not going to vibrate. The role of the tail peace is irrelevant.
The distance between the tail peace and the bridge is too short to allow for the string to stretch a significant amount.
I have on old medicine bottle with a few dozen of them for string changes top wrapped. The ball-ends make it work. Better than bell ends I guess. :P (I am not sure yanks know what a bell end is, but I guess y'all can figure it out).
This reminds me of the story about the girl’s mother who always cut the end off of a ham before she baked it. When she asked her mother why she did it, the mother replied that that was the way her mother always did it. When the little girl asked her grandmother why she always cut the end off of the ham, the grandmother replied so it would fit in the pan. Seems some people imitate what others do without knowing why.
I heard no difference in sustain even with headphones and all that is subject to how hard you hit the strings. No one I know lets a guitar ring out that long anyway.
All I know is my Les Paul plays easy, I bend a lot. My Tokai Les Paul, though set up exactly the same, bends a bit easier, I’m stunned over that one. I played my American deluxe Telecaster since early 2000 and always thought the strings bent easily on that. Years ago due to arthritis, I went to 8’s and there was only a tiny difference in sound but the bendability was great. I’ve been using the Paul (Gibson) for quite a while doing southern rock and blues. Just tonight prior to watching this video, I broke out the Tele and to my surprise, it was harder to bend in the upper scale than the Les Paul So, it’s tighter than my Les Paul. I learned years ago, that the lower the strings to the neck, the easier the strings bend. Doing southern rock I don’t mind a slight buzz on the low E because it’s amplified, Old Superlead, and you don’t hear it.
Tonight I noticed the Tele neck had a little bit of a bow, just a bit, so I straightened it out, and the strings got a C hair easier to bend. I noticed it more because I’ve had some time off and my finger tips I from practicing now, got a little sore so I really felt the difference in bending. That’s my observations but, I’m going to try the over the top method. Now on my Paul’s, I always had the tailpiece raised halfway up because I did honestly feel a slight difference in bending.
Robert Rodriguez fell for a similar family cooking tip...until he asked his grandmother. It was the pan size she had. Nothing more.
Jesus, that was a perfect and great analogy thank you.
Yeah I'm wondering if these guys just did because and not because of some tone myth reasons.
I thought the 2nd strummed sample sounded more *growly* than the first.
It's almost like a gain-effect.
I've never owned a Les Paul; I generally play Floyd Rose equipped Strat-Style guitars, but what it sounds like to me, is how the sound changes when I change out the stock fine tuners on a Floyd Rose, with brass ones. It just adds this little bit of "Growl" to the tone.
The same thing with my two non-Floyd guitars, which use saddles/blades similar to a Les Paul; when I changed their saddles/blades out with brass roller saddles, their sound *also* gained a bit of that growliness.
So, basically what I heard when going from the 1st sample to the second, was the addition of the sort of growl I associate with adding brass into the vibration chain of an instrument.
*However!!!* I want to point out...
That if the volume knob got turned up slightly between the two samples (and the second sample *does* sound just slightly louder to me), then it's quite possible that what I was hearing, was just the effect of a little more gain in the signal chain.
So, I can't tell with any amount of accuracy, whether the sound change I heard, had anything to do with what was done with the bridge.
The difference between how something like brass in the vibration chain can affect a given instrument's sound, versus the effects of gain and such in the signal chain...
Is that brass parts in the vibration chain *physically alter* the vibration characteristics of the instrument.
So the effect is present *throughout* the volume range of the instrument AND affects how the instrument sounds when it's played acoustically.
In this case, maybe there's a little more gain on the second sample, or if the tailpiece is making more *physical contact* with the body when it's decked, I'd assume it might be possible that there's more vibration getting transferred back and forth, which could conceivably affect the sound of the instrument.
Production quality is really on the up every video you make. Keep it up man excited to see your journey on UA-cam progress
Didn't even expect a change in tone, just in handling, like string breakage and palm-muting. Thanks for taking the time to compare those.
The best comparison on this subject that I've seen.
Nice, sensible presentation. At first I thought Oh no, not another top-wrapping video! but I’m glad I watched. I’m not a big string-breaker, but I used to top-wrap because the tone was thicker, especially on the unwound strings and the action felt softer and easier to play. In Irving Sloane’s book Steel String Guitar Construction there is a chapter featuring James D’Aquisto and his archtop jazz guitars. Sloane relates how Jimmy D’A was able to control the action and tone of his guitars even after they were built by tweaking the length and the height of his ebony tailpieces. Shortening the tailpiece creates more string length behind the bridge and makes the strings feel softer because the extra length allows the strings to be more flexible. Some people say that the string tension is a constant, which may be scientifically accurate, but guitars with shorter tailpieces are definitely easier to play. By the same token, D’Aquisto told Mr. Sloane that raising the tailpiece would soften volume and enrich tone. This is also true because the shallower break angle over the bridge exerts less downward pressure on the bridge and the top of the guitar, so notes are fatter but die out more quickly. Some people can hear the difference and others can’t, but I think Jimmy D’A knew a thing or two about tone. Top-wrapping the strings on a solid body guitar does both of the things that are mentioned in Irving Sloane’s book. Obviously the break angle is shallower, but also the string length behind the bridge is slightly longer, which most people don’t realize until you point it out to them. Another thing that D’Aquisto used to do was to substitute a solid, one-piece non-adjustable bridge if the customer asked for more sustain. All of this makes perfect sense in the context of top-wrapping. One thing most people don’t understand about top-wrapping is that you will have to bend your strings slightly farther in order to achieve the same change in pitch. It’s not a big difference, but it’s definitely a real phenomenon.
I used to play on a set of.011 to .046 strings. It was a regular Slinky set with an .011 substituted for the standard high e. Top-wrapping gave me the best of both worlds-big thick strings that sounded and played great. Nowadays I flip some of my guitars and I don’t like to scar the tailpiece. I also use a.009 to .042 set so I don’t need to top-wrap in order to get the action I prefer.
I build my own electric guitars from scratch, and on a stop tailpiece/tuneomatic style hardware setup I always put the tailpiece twice as far from the bridge as on a Gibson Les Paul. The difference in action and tone is absolutely amazing. You can put a set of tens on my guitars and they sound like tens but they play almost as easily as nines. Thanks for this video and if you have read my comment all the way to the end you have the patience of Job!
Excellent post! I had Sloane's book decades ago, got it at a library book sale!
Great Post! Thanks. I too don't like scarring the tailpiece. I own a Les Paul and an SG (both top wrapped) and purchased a replacement tailpiece for both so in the event I do want to flip. I have a shiny, new, unscarred tailpiece for the new owner. Again thanks for your post. Cost 65 bucks for each guitar but adds piece of mind for me so well worth it IMHO
@@FlipDahlenburg Thank you! Irving was a pioneer and his book is still very relevant today.
Really great post thanks for the tip on moving the tip back when you're making your own… I'm gonna check that out
I was thinking this, maybe I'll buy a replacement tailpiece to use and save the original to put back on for resale.
I’ve never tried top-wrapping, but now I’m tempted to give it a try. Thanks for the informative video!
I have a Heritage 535 that came with "standard" through the tailpiece and after watching this video tried top wrapping - wow the difference was amazing. There is a whole new quality to the sound. I have a Heritage Johnny Smith and the sound of the strings resonating between the bridge and the tailpiece adds subtle harmonics to the sound, the piano effect. Top wrapping the 535 added a similar harmonic quality to the sound. Thank you, I have been playing for 56 years and this gave me a new reason to play more.
Dude
All imaginary.
I'm jealous of that Heritage 535. Maybe one day I'll find a good deal on a used one.
Checking out the tone variations WITHOUT plugging the guitar in brings surprising results - place your ear on the upper bout and listen carefully. My best results happened when the strings only contacted the bridge saddles, not the bridge breakover. Some overtones were noticed. Topwrapped strings moved around a bit until they settled in after playing a few songs! Thanks for this well thought out video. Good job!
You are a very good teacher. I don’t say that lightly because I have studied learning theory for many years. Your coverage of this topic was very helpful. I intend to keep top wrapping my guitars if only to decrease string breakage on stage or during recording sessions. Very good job!
Top wrapping cured my tuning issues on 339 instantly. I’ve had 2 previous techs work on my guitar. Third guy recommended this for the tuning. And it actually worked!
That's for certain why they did it. I can't imagine Jimmy, Joe and Duane thinking bends needed to be easier on a Les Paul.
@@willdenham Right? lol
I agree fully. I did exactly the same with my ES339 12 yrs back and it plays a lot better top wrapped.
@@AndykWilhelm kinda weirds me out. are the notches in the saddles cut deep enough to accept say 1/2 the diameter of the string? if so , top wrapping might be changing enough of the angle to keep string from bottiming out & pinching the string.
I can't explain why from a physics point of view, but I had the same experience. Top wrapping solved tuning issues and also seemed to make the intonation dead perfect, two things that I was always fighting.
Thank you for dispelling the myth that it affects the tension of bends! It's never made sense to me when people suggest that it does. Between the nut and saddle, the string needs a precise amount of tension (based on the gauge of string) to be in tune. If it has less tension you have either dropped in pitch or changed the scale length (in which case your frets won't be in line with your intonation). One could argue that because there is less pressure on the bridge the string is allowed to slide over the saddle more when bending, but that would actually counteract the bend by lengthening the string until it can't slide further (and we're talking fractions of a millimeter here).
I know right?
The tension thing just doesn't make sense
@@mattandcandle here’s the unique thing about these bridges. It’s that extra length of string behind the bridge that makes it easier to bend. The tension is the same for a particular tuning and string gauge. Over wrapping gives you just a little bit more string length to work with and make the string easier to bend.
Think of the string as a lever. The longer the lever the easier it is to move something.
@panzerlieb If that is the case, a guitar with a bigsby must be ridiculously easy to bend. Is that actually the case? (I've never actually tried one long enough to notice")
@panzerlieb Also, assuming that the length of string outside of the scale length affects the tension, we would have to agree that for the length between nut and tuning peg as well. So, using a locking nut on a guitar would make it harder to bend as well (I'd try comparing the difference if I still had my old ibanez). I could still be wrong, but I still haven't heard an explanation for that that makes sense to me. At the end of the day, it doesn't matter. As long as I can hear the correct pitch and get it there, I'm happy. Sometimes a guitar that makes you work harder for it gives it character (not always).
It probably does make etch the entire string than a string with a sharp break angle. But then again, how hard can it be to bend a little thin string.
I've top wrapped for many years. I like having the tailpiece tight to the body, which hits the bridge exactly as you've shown. Good job!
I’m more of a fender guy, but I’m laughing all the way through this because I totally get it… It’s like all the geeky discussions we have about how to float your trem, how many springs and which aftermarket springs are better… and talk of roller nuts, etc. I do love all of this stuff. Enjoy your deck bridges!
@@BobSperber that what I thought too. I thought he way better tone with the tail piece “decked”.
It’s like top-load vs string-through
Rn I'm loving the springs that came with my grover 4 point trem on my strat with vintage style fender saddles
I love strats! I'm just starting out and would like some pointers please. What aftermarket springs are best ? Or what overall spring are best ? I have no idea about any of that stuff. Also how many springs should one use ?
@@AndyLugoCortez those are good questions. I’m not sure if anyone has gone down the rabbit hole of comparing after market springs.
The first guy I saw who did Top Wrapping was Duane and that was in 1969. I asked him why he did it and he said it was to make the tension less and make it easier to play.
@@DonaldButler-u2k Duane was a slide player so I can see that.
I saw a guitarist with Screaming Lord Sutch & The Savages in 1963 who top wrapped his Gibson 335! My view is that soundwise at gig volume you won't hear any difference.
@@panzerlieb I get it. 😆
You all should try Malcolm Youngs (RIP) rig. Biggest strings that you cant even bend.😅 After while I got used to it and play solo with that guitar. I dont use effects and a bit of overdrive. Sustain comes from my fingers/hand.
I don't believe that, the tension to get your tuning on A to 440hz is pretty much the same string tension.
And if you top wrap the string gets a bit longer cause it's half way the tailpiece when it loses contact to the tailpiece, so if there would be a difference, than it would have a higher tension.
Shorter scale guitars have lower tension cause the string is shorter.
So standard tailpiece setup would probably have lower tension if there is any measurable difference at all.
probably all in one's head. If you believe it that makes it true, no matter the science.
if you want less tension, play with slinkier strings.
I didnt have an idea of this before your video. It makes a lot of sense to wrap. Not only to prevent the breaking thing but because the string/guitar contact increases a lot. Thank you very much.
Thank you, that was awesome. I get a lot of grief for top wrapping and the reason I top wrap is kind of silly. The new to me guitar just somehow didn’t feel right. I had a professional setup and tried a lot of things, but it just wasn’t comfortable. I decided to try the top wrap and it all fell into place. So that is how I play it and I think it looks cool!
I started top wrapping mine about 8 years ago after seeing Joe B’s guitars. I find that it makes the tone a lot brighter and gives more feel
The old guys wrapped the strings on top because that was how one did it with the earlier single stop tailpiece configurations and more what they were used to. My 1955 had a single stop and that is just how you strung it.
Just picked up a 2013 Gibson LPJ. Bought it with the tailpiece decked and strings top wrapped and just kept it that way because it plays fantastic.
I‘m a legend in my own mind and I‘m a top wrapper from way back
A little tip is to first feed the string through a ball end so the sharp part of the end wrap isn‘t right on the top of the tail piece
Hmm good idea, I just top wrap the wound strings to avoid this. I started top wrapping because of snapping wound stribgs at the saddle. Gave the saddle slot a filing and sanding and I top wrap the bottom three strings and it seems to work well as a compromise.
In theory you could load them normally then wrap below the tailpiece and over it, should be enough extra length to keep the sharp ends of ball end strings away from your hand.
Yep, I'm a legend as well
Great video. Another little piece of advice for people with Nashville bridges; top wrapping is actually pretty useful due to the width of the bridge requiring a shallower break angle than with an ABR1. On a Les Paul, this avoids the need to raise the tail way off the top.
You should always make sure that your strings are clearing the back of the bridge comfortably, decking the tail is never a good idea unless top wrapped.
I've seen this debated in guitar mags for years, then in UA-cam videos. I've tried my les Paul both ways. I top wrap. Purely because I think it looks better and I feel I can feel the strings better when I mute with my right hand.
& it really doesnt need to be any more reason than that.
When I top wrap I double up on the ball ends keeps the lock wraps at the end of the strings from being kinked when going over. Less string breakage
Extra balls are good!😊
I had a Martin D-18 and the saddle slot was cut so close to the bridge pin holes that the end wrap of some of the strings would actually hang over the saddle. I saved ball ends so I could double up. Eventually the bridge cracked and had to be replaced… ending the problem.
I came here to write exactly this. You might get scoffed hands from the Tailpiece because strings might have "rough" ends or sometimes even loose threading. Keeping the balls from older strings and threading your strings through those before threading the strings through the tailpiece can save you a ton of hassle.
And I have tried both kinds of string attachments and I prefer topwrapping my .9's.
@@hms1 No way, just my own set in the mix, but you do you. And the other's pair, guess.
It’s called the captains trick
AN EXCELLENT explaination of top wrapping ! I have one Les Paul set up this way and another set up as from the factory. For me, the lower string tension & slinky feel without going to a lower guage feels and sounds right for me.
In addition-you can take the "ball end" from your old strings and run a new string thru the "ball end"-doing this and you won't have the "kink" in the string which causes hand scrapes.
I submit your street cred increases exponentially when the fans in the front see you bleeding on your instrument. Cuz your beating your guitar like it owes you money.
It changes also the feeling of the right hand - the wraparound setup reduce the contact of the palm with the tailpiece and only with the bridge.
Another tip when top wrapping is to clip the ball ends from old strings and put them on your new strings. The area where the nickel winds meets the ball end can have a tendency to break. Having the extra ball end reinforces the winds on the string making it less prone to breakage in that area.
How do you add a part of an old string to a new string? Or am I just not reading this right?
@@SdMbL1 slip the ball end down the new string
@@SdMbL1not totally sure on this and I really should look at a string first but I'm lazy, I think the ball ends are hollow through the center, just clip the ball ends off the old strings and feed the new string through the center. I think that's what the original commenter is suggesting........ I could be totally wrong.
@@SdMbL1 Cut the balls off of the old string. Slip it over the new string so you have two balls at the end. Works really well. Without doing that sometime you break strings. Done it for years.
@@williamsherman1089 right
Thank you, good video. Maximum sustain occurs when the LEAST amount of energy is robbed from the vibrating string by other parts of the system. So energy dissipated in the body, via the studs, and also the neck, headstock etc, all remove energy from the vibrating string and thus the pickup.
Just to add to this. The pickups don't pick up vibrations from the wood, they pickup metal moving in a magnetic field to create a signal. Wood in an electric instrument is an aesthetic, structural, and ergonomic choice.
I've always agreed with both these statements. I saw a video once where someone put fine sand on the guitar and strummed it . None of the sand moved at all . Tone wood is just a myth like so many other guitar ideas that have guitarists spending fortunes to achieve "toan".
@@demonicsquid7217 But if the wood vibrates then it can transfer the vibration back to strings making them also vibrate longer. Try playing a note without amplifier and then do the same with the guitar body touching a wooden table and notice the difference of the non amplified sound and how the vibration goes to table too. I'm not saying this makes any difference in sustain or sound, but it's just something that I have accidentally noticed when I have had my guitar touching a table. It could be that they all vibrate, but the vibration time is still the same. I don't really hear the difference when I do the same with amplified guitar.
@@ManWithoutThePants Not quite. The wood vibrating can only dissipate energy taken from the vibrating string. That energy is lost as heat in the molecules of the wood. This cannot 'add' energy to the string it can only remove it. So my original point stands. This does not mean it has no influence on the overall sound. A guitar would sustain like an organ if this were not the case. Your comment about the table confirms my point, that the wood of a table allows the strings vibrations (energy) to be more easily coupled to the surrounding air. This just allows even more of the string's energy to be dissipated. The fact that it sounds louder acoustically means more energy is being lost from the string into the table and air.
@@GuitarRyder11 Jim Lill tested tone wood and sustain, and found wood means absolutely nothing so much that you don't even need it. By the end of his testing, he had strings in thin air between a table and a shelf held down with motorcycle engines, with only a pickup mounted underneath, and it sounded so close to a full guitar that you couldn't pick it out of a blind test. Pickup, and pickup location along string + distance from string is basically the only thing on an electric guitar that affects tone.
I felt it was a fuller sound, super cool. Thanks!!!
On the road as a professional in the 70s top wrapping was commonly attributed to Ronnie Montrose, and we called it by that name. Still doing it all these years later.
Ronnie is a huge influence to my style of playing!
@@kurtweiand7086 he was fantastic. Gone too soon.
Because why? Because he’s got the fire that’s why!
Thanks for the details explanation.
For the sustain test. If we look at the graph, the tail wrapping method will probably have the graph line, volume peaked for about 9 secs before it went gradually quiet, while the decked and raised tail piece seems to drop volume quicker at 7 to 8 and 5 to 6 secs respectively.
You had me on string breakage. I'm a serial string buster, so I'm going to start top-wrapping for sure.
ALSO check and see if your nut slots are ideal for the string gauge your using... And that the entry angle of the strings isn't rubbing across a sharp edge on the nut...
Play that thing like you mean it, beat the crowd into submission with your riffs and badass tone!
Good video. In order to fully benefit from raising the strings at the tailpiece (whether you top wrap or just raise the bridge) one has to also ensure that the slots on top of the bridge match the string shape, gauges and angles and neck radius. Gauged nut files also work on bridge pieces. Shaping the bridge slots enhances the ability of the string to slide on top of the bridge and renormalize the tension after string bends or after energized playing dynamics. A “V” shaped notch on the bridge and round wounds are going to grip the string and not permit one from fully benefiting from the change in break angle from tailpiece adjustments
I dont know about differences in tone or bendability or whatever, I just do it cuz it looks cool.
This reason is as good as any lmao.
That’s exactly why I do it.
I have been top wrapping my guitars ever since I heard an interview with Zakk Wilde talking about it when he was playing with Qzzy. Thank you for the clarification because I forgot the original reason I started doing it.
I also switched to top wrapping a couple years ago, mainly because of the break angle argument (and looks, lol). But i always think it's funny that people really think it would reduce string tension and make bending easier, like the amount of tension you apply to the string is what gives it that pitch you're at, only way to reduce tension is to use thinner strings or downtune.
Just because those bits of string aren't within the play area it doesn't mean that those bits are out of play. When you bend a note it draws from string outside the play area as it's being stretched.
When the tail piece is set high or top wrapped there is more string to draw from behind the bridge due to the slackened tension there. When you lower the tailpiece it increases the tension behind the bridge reducing the amount of string to draw from. More slack requires bigger bends to meet your target pitch. More tension means smaller bends to meet target pitch.
@@normdeplume6492 Thank you for that bit of sanity!
A very good, sensible comparison with no outlandish claims about the differences. Basically, it comes down to personal preference! Thank you. I don't top wrap, but if I need to raise the tailpiece to stop the strings touching the back of the bridge I use Faber locking studs (or even Faber spacer rings under the regular studs). It stops the studs tilting forwards and (I like to think) gives a more solid contact between the studs/tailpiece and the body.
I started doing this a couple of years ago when I switched to an aluminum tailpiece on my korean Epiphone SG, and man! The guitar responds so much more to my playing, and with a Seymour Duncan '59 at the bridge it sounds and feels amazeballs.
I liked your comment until you said amazeballs. Haha
Thanks I will follow the legends on my 06 Les and 96 Korean Les. I appreciate you getting to the point and not SHOWING OFF IN YOUR DEMO.😎🌈🔦John Wales
I will try this on my LP Custom. Seems straightforward enough to do. Thanks for this.👍
Going down a string gauge sometimes does the same thing as far as feel.
The 1955 Gibson catalog shows a Les Paul custom top wrapped. So that option has been around for a long time.
Excellent video - I watch guitar videos all the time and this is the first time I see someone confronting this issue. I also Top Wrap and agree with all the points you made - makes sense!! Thanks Dylan!
I really heard the difference between the first 2 comparison, tail piece raised and fully down.
I top wrap my strings and have been doing it for a few years now, it just felt more comfortable when I did it on a guitar I have been using for 20 years.
One thing to add to the video, I use a couple of ball strings as a buffer between the tail piece and the actual ball end of the string to avoid string break from the kink, this is a tip from Joe Bonamassa tech.
To clarify, you mean putting a non-wound string or two at the part of the stopbar where the strings kink? Or...? I'd like to know because I've got a Gibson that needs strings - and if Joe's tech does it, it's likely worth trying.
@@bveracka Sorry, I think I was not precise in my reply.
You take 2 of the ball end (without the string) you insert the string in the hole in the middle of the ball end so that the string as its ball end it is wrapped around stopping the 2 ball ends you just inserted not falling through.
You then insert the string through the stop bar (tail piece) for normal top wrap.
I hope it clarify my previous statement.
Note that you need 12 ball ends to do it to all 6 strings.
@@dobiqwolf Okay, I understand what you're saying now. Thanks for the clarification. 👍
Man, whether top wrapping makes a difference or not, your presentation and explanations are quite excellent.
My PRS SE Mira has a top wrap tailpiece from the factory. It plays great and sounds good, too.
I top wrap to achieve greater aural awareness and paint my own sound with an enlightening brush of creative goodness.😎 (in other words, I'm full of it)
I do it for more oral too.
@@gregkoelling615 😂😂👍
Right on brother, and my the force be with you.....
Great info. I didn't like the top wrap but I didn't lower the tailpiece. I'll give it a try when its time to change strings.
My SG is hanging a foot above my computer monitor and I can't stop looking at the bridge and planning to try this.
I actually need to change the strings on my sg, it's one of my most amazingly easy to play guitars( all maple) if it works I will have to quit playing bc I will be in heaven( can't do it on my tele, it's a string thru...)
Thanks for taking the time,
For acoustic I have taken to opening a sealed pack of Martin M140 and leaving for a year before fitting.
Takes forward planning for how often you change strings.
Haven't tried it with electric but you would likely hear a difference.
Metal properties change with time,there's a sweet spot age that is a personal preference.
Maybe you have already been there with an open pack that had a 1st taken out and wondered why the set sounded different when fitted.
I do it bc it makes a nice little shelf for my heel palm to rest on.
i have a Tokai semi, and I'm definately going to Top Wrap. Because it looks cool. Thank you for taking the time.
The only reason I top wrap is because it keeps my strings from breaking easily. When they’re going through the bridge, the break angle is so heavy that the saddle basically slices your string and breaks it. when I top wrap, There’s way less tension on the saddles and the string last much longer.
That's why the tailpiece is adjustable.
@@vorpalblades yeah man obviously. But even then the break angle is too much. It’s my preference. You don’t have to agree with it.
@@TreyShreddings defensive aren't we?
Does top wrapping increase the chance of string breakage near the ball end? Cause unwinding? That folding of the string there looks like it might. I currently have the strings touching the rear of the bridge and they certainly do snap there, occasionally. I raised the tailpiece but there's a lot of thread showing and i fear the bolts pulling out. I'm contemplating taking it to a luthier for a complete set up, with the bridge lowered, but wonder if it would it be possible to maintain the same action through truss rod adjustment.
@@eagleowlishIn my opinion: I'd think top wrapping would alleviate a sharp point of vibration by bringing the string across a radius all while presenting a clean look that's snags less.
I definitely appreciate your honesty. I do have an SG that I have raised the tailpiece to where I don't like the look, so I am going to try top wrapping next time I changes strings and lower the tailpiece. Should look much better.
Listen if Duane Allman top wrapped, I’m sure as hell going to top wrap too.
Wow. Since I play fingerstyle, it's rare for me to break a string, but yesterday I broke the high E on my Midtown Standard. I'm definitely top-wrapping it today. When I was a teenager, I had '79 LP Custom that constantly broke strings at the bridge - now I know the stopbar was likely just too low. I can't believe after nearly 25 years of being a Gibson fanboy that I overlooked this. At any rate, bravo. Great video!
I learned a trick from Billy Gibbons and Elwood. If you TOP WRAP, you take the ball of the old string and feed it down to the new string, resulting in two balls/rings on each string. That saves a fortune on strings. They hardly ever break. Plus, the best tailpieces for this are made by Music City Bridge.
So you just have the other ball right next to the one that’s fastened on the new string? Between it and the tailpiece?
@@Spyking18 Yeah. It keeps a little more wrapped ball wire under the tailpiece.
So then, you cut off the old ball end and run the new string through the old strings ball end? And what's the reward/payoff?
@@MrJohnnyDistortion NO! Don't cut anything. The extra ball keeps the string wrap (holding the ball) slightly more under the tailpiece. The payoff is less string breaking and slightly more sustain.
Man...I´d love a pic about your idea...Is it anywhere in the web?
Thanks!
Great video. Just one detail I don’t think I caught you mention (and my apologies if you did). Can top wrapping cosmetically and/or physically damage the tailpiece in case we don’t like it and want to go back to normal? Like is there any risk of scratching or grooves developing on a typical Epiphone and/or Gibson branded tailpiece, particularly with rhythm players who tend to dig deep, shall we say? 😂
I always wanted to try this setup on my friend’s Epiphone Modern LP when I occasionally borrow it while she’s in town visiting her family, but I don’t want to possibly damage her guitar when she doesn’t seem to like that setup and wants a pristine looking tailpiece. I mean, I don’t think I saw any obvious scratches or grooves on your tailpiece, but figured I’d ask anyway.
Tyvm!
P.S. Have you seen the Dylan Talks Tone video on this subject? He focused mostly on whether raising the tailpiece kills the sustain and less so on the over-wrapping part (though he mentioned it) - very interesting thoughts and demo.
Yes in can bruise the tailpiece.
The tailpiece on my Les Paul is made of aluminum and there are some grooves forming. I have also noticed that the strings can slide around on top of the tailpiece, just a tiny bit, which causes tuning issues.
It will absolutely scratch the tailpiece, but it's an easily swappable part. Of course don't do this if you have some extremely valuable vintage guitar and you want to keep all parts in original condition.
Good analysis!
I personally prefer the look of the raised tailpiece (clean top) over the top wrapping (tailpiece closer to body).
But adjusting the height of the tailpiece is an important step. I do it more for playability than for broken strings however.
I always do that on my 335. But, honestly, in your video now I believe I hear a more full sound when you deck the bridge all the way down...
Yes indeed. He strummed way harder with the decked bridge, that's all.
The same on my firebird. It has a fuller tone, I feel the note through the body. I don't use distortion , I want to squeeze as much tone as I can out of the guitar. Kinda like a house with a poorly mounted gutter, water's gonna go wherever, but with a proper mounted gutter water is going right where you need it to.
This was really very informative. In theory, everything presented here makes perfect sense. I have seen a lot of "tricks" developed over the years (through the 60's and 70's), to squeeze all the sustain possible out of the guitar itself 'cause face it, back in the day you were not going to get it from the amps. When I listened to the various setups, I didn't notice too much change from the listeners standpoint, so I have to assume that this is really the players choice of feel, and what the Guitar is going to give the player. Which is really the most important thing.
I am going to try the string over method next time I string up the LP.
By the way, I love that LP you have, it does sound really very good.
Now! If you could help me get more sustain out of my Roadhouse Strat, without losing the whammy set...
@dylanadamsguitar
For those of us who don't want to Top-Wrap the Tailpiece, which has the possibility of causing other unwanted or negative effects such as:
Adding extra string length (by wrapping the extra string around the Tailpiece) that makes stretching the strings feel different.
FYI: If you watch the video from @DylanTalksTone, he actually finds out that the extra string length from Top-Wrapping causes you to need to bend your strings further to reach the same desired pitch/notes and you have to use more pressure/tension to accomplish that then when NOT being Top-Wrapped...
Having to add extra string end nuts to prevent the twisted end of the strings from extending past the Tailpiece to prevent potential rattling, discomfort like getting scratched when playing, or creating a sharp string angle off the twisted end possibly causing more breakage. Plus the additional time and complication added to changing your strings.
And scratching off the finish on the top of your Tailpiece.
There is an alternative that allows you to get the effect of flooring the Tailpiece against the guitar like Top-Wrapping (which many believe positively effects your tone and playability); and still avoid putting too much pressure on your Bridge from excessive string angle by having your strings lying on the edge of your bridge that can cause it to collapse if you floor your Tailpiece without wrapping the strings.
You can get the Farber Tone-Lock TP-’59 Tailpiece (or similar model, depending on your year/model guitar).
Essentially, the Tailpiece can be adjusted to the proper height needed (to keep the strings off the back of the bridge at any chosen angle) while still having the Tailpiece metal directly touching down to the guitar by using the Tailpiece Spacers (which lock down against the metal bushings and the wood body of the guitar).
And because of this locking design, string changes are a breeze too without the Tailpiece falling off as an extra bonus!
I'm sold! I can clearly hear the difference in tone and sustain. It's really promenade with the chords. The length of the actual notes is longer BEFORE any fadeout. GEEZ! Now I have to change 6 Les Pauls! 🤣🤣
The idea that the strings "feel slinkier" because of reduced tension has always made me chuckle. A string of a certain gauge, at a certain scale, is tuned to a note at a specific tension. The ONLY ways to reduce the tension on strings at a given scale are to either lower tuning or decrease gauge. Period. 10s tuned to E standard at 24 3/4" scale are the same tension whether you top wrap, normal feed, bottom wrap, use a wraparound tailpiece, a LP Jr tailpiece, a fine tuner tailpiece, a roller bridge, etc. They can only be that note at that specific tension.
Friction at nut, bridge and frets (if unpolished) is also a factor in slinkyness. By top wrapping you raise the strings ever so slightly which in turn makes the angle that the string makes contact with the bridge less severe resulting in less tension put on the bridge by the strings and thereby less friction acting on the strings. Less friction = less resistance = more slink.
Are they not a little longer that way? That makes a difference if I am not insane.
Alright, good advise, well-put together video, clear and informative, easy to listen to voice...you got my sub, man. Much appreciated. One thing I might add is that top wrapping may wear down the finish on the tailpiece over time but these are easily replaced if such things bother you. I will for sure be coming back here to learn and enjoy. Thank you.
The notes will sing more if done the traditional way, its physics. If you really want it to feel slinkier, you can raise the stop bar, and/or select lighter guage strings. I always use 9s on my LP and raise the stop bar to adjust the break angle.
Gross
Thanks for the video.
I raised the tailpiece on an Epiphone LP a few years ago, and after some time I noticed the tailpiece had started to move towards the bridge. The screws weren’t perfectly stiff and started to bend, and it looked like I had ruined the guitar 😱
Thankfully I could just screw them back in, and that’s why I used top-wrapping instead.
The guy from Aerosmith too. Seems reasonable to have the threads turned in all the way for stability. I had a L6 deluxe, string thru, harmonica bridge, the strings alway contacted the bridge before the saddles. Tuning was always an issue on top of that. I still would love to have it back if the guy who stole it is reading this.
I was to the point of changing the bridge and adding a tail piece. The nut of course.
If that guy has my '71 Strat tell him to return it too. 😊
Top wrapped had it! Improved sustain, more full range tone without being either too warm or shrill. Switching all my ABR's and tunamatic's this week. THANKS
I put a schaller roller bridge on my les paul makes a big difference when bending strings . Very smooth and easy on your fingers . No rattles either unlike the tunamatic.
Just about to do this too. :)
@peterprice8897 An old teacher of mine told me that they cause problems with intonation. The front of the tune-o-matic saddles is a straight plane that gives a 90 degree angle to the string, so when fretting, which pushes the string in towards the body, the point of contact of string to saddle does not change. Whereas with the roller bridge (which I always thought looked like a great idea), the point of contact would change - very slightly, but as you know, intonation is set by adjusting the length of the string, and even a minute change while playing would eff up the intonation. Did I explain that well enough?
So, is this something that you've tested for? Are you certain that it does not mess with your intonation?
thanks for the advice i will test the intonation and let you know the results
I'm building an ES335. I think I will give the top wrapping a shot to see how it sounds and plays. Thanks -- nice video.
This trick absolutely works. I read about this in a Guitar World interview with Zakk Wylde 20 years ago, and tried it on my Les Paul. I've used it ever since, because it definitely prevents breaking strings.
Speaking as a luthier, top wrapping reduces the stress on the inserts which will keep the tail piece from developing a lean. (It does happen, especially with raised tail pieces)
I top wrap my LP. I definitely experience a slinkier feel plus more natural sustain. Nice video.
Yup
imaginary.
If you do need your tailpiece up a little I would recommend using a washer or two (whatever it takes to get to desired height) so you can tighten the studs down good where the threads lock good and tight…. That will give you good vibration transfer and avoid buzzing
I top wrap so I can maximise sustain by having the tailpiece posts as far down as possible whilst avoiding the strings leaning on the back of the bridge leading to potential tuning glitches with the wound strings (not really a problem in truth) and a premature collapse of the bridge which will happen anyway over time. I personally can't tell a practical difference in tension any more than 'good mood' playing and 'bad mood' playing, if you know what I mean.
I started typing this early on and at 4.30 minutes I suspect that we are in accord for the most part.
Great video Dylan. It certainly makes sense. I always thought the wrap around bridge themselves were better quality sound and sustain than the tailpiece types. Have a good one.
Both normal strung sound the same, but the top wrapped had a little bit more low, but almost unnoticeable
I felt it was thicker and more resonant.
@@masteringhouse yeah exactly, i was referring to that i didn't find the word before
Exactly as expected. The body vibrations are not going to matter at all for the sound. Electric guitar pickups are not microphones, they don't care one slight bit about the wood vibrating more or less around them. The pickup simply cannot hear them. It might matter a tiny bit for sustain, depending on how much the string is dampened. But in that case you'd want the _least_ energy transferred to the body, not the most.
started top wrapping tears and years ago - helped a lot with string breakage!!! One top is that you may need to notch your low E string a little deeper - if I don't the low E will pop out of the saddle if playing really hard/chugging heavy stuff.
The tension on the string between the bridge and the nut is determined by the string (diameter, material, wrap, etc.) and the tuning pitch. That tension will always be the same for the same strings and tuning - regardless of what happens before the bridge or after the nut. The tension on the string behind the bridge has to balance the tension on the other side of the bridge. What is different is the how that tension is distributed in line with the string and into the bridge/guitar body. A simple free-body diagram with 3 vectors can be used to calculate the values based on the break angle. There is no way this could have any impact on how the strings feel playing because the tension on the strings is exactly the same regardless of the break angle behind the bridge.
It absolutely does make a difference in feel.
As you say, tension is redistributed outside the play area while keeping the tension between nut and bridge constant. But, tension in the play area only remains constant until you bend a string.
Just because those bits of string aren't within the play area it doesn't mean that those bits are out of play. When you bend a note it draws from string outside the play area as it's being stretched.
When the tail piece is set high or top wrapped there is more string to draw from behind the bridge due to the slackened tension there. When you lower the tailpiece it increases the tension behind the bridge reducing the amount of string to draw from. More slack requires bigger bends to meet your target pitch. More tension means smaller bends to meet target pitch.
Experiment by raising and lowering the tailpiece from one extreme to the other. Lower it to the body then tune it up and play for a few minutes. Then raise it. Tune up and play for a few minutes like that.
You are correct about the tension, but you're missing the point because tension isn't the only thing that impacts playability. For instance, is it easier to bend the string in the middle, as opposed to on, say, the second fret? Absolutely, even though it's the same string at the same tension.
@@boshi9 When you bend a string from the middle you draw an equal amount of slack from either side of the fretted note. When you move to the second fret you greatly reduce the amount of slack material to draw from on the nut side of the fret. The depth of a bend is limited by the tension on the short side of the fretted note regardless to how much slack is available from the long side. Second fret to the nut is about 1.5" of string. From the twelfth fret to the nut is 12" of string. You can stretch 12" of string much further than you can 1.5" of string.
Raising and lowering the tailpiece alters the tension between the saddles and the tailpiece. It also alters the amount of down bearing pressure of the strings on to the saddles. Lowering the tailpiece increases down bearing. Raising decreases it. Less down bearing means less tension between the saddles and the tailpiece. Increased down bearing means greater tension between the saddles and tailpiece.
With less downward pressure your bends pull more slack from behind the saddles which makes the strings feel looser (slinkier). With greater downward pressure there is less slack to draw from behind the saddles which makes the strings feel tighter. There is quite a bit of leeway in reducing downward pressure before it becomes detrimental to tuning and playability. That's what keeps the tension constant between the saddles and nut.
What top-wrapping does is it decreases maximum downward pressure on to the saddles and increases the amount of slack material between the saddles and the tailpiece for your bends to draw from.
Thanks for sharing this, I have a 70,s gold top that I top wrapped, just to see if there was any difference, and I'd say there's something maybe tension wise but the most interesting aspect is this guitar stays in tune better, which I can't explain but it does.
you can also do(I don't) ,, half top wrap G-B-E,, and half E-A-D normal , for tighter lower register and easier to bench higher strings
That is actually genius
Pitch and string tension are directly related, yet people assert that they can achieve the same pitch with less tension.
@@CarsonLee-ll8ph because its not about tension 🙂↕️
@@otaviosmartins1it is with my solos! Bad um tisss!
@@otaviosmartins1 Then what is the cause of the "easier" bending?
Great demo! I think both tones sound good and extremely close to each other. I will try it next sting change
I think the biggest difference is the feel of tension from the string. I prefer the tension that not top wrapping gives. I like my Less Paul to feel snappier, more like a strat feel, but Lester sound.
Pitch and string tension are directly related, yet people assert that they can achieve the same pitch with less tension.
Slinkiness or more specifically tension on the strings is purely related to the gauge, the pitch it's tuned to and the scale length. (And maybe polished or not frets.) It has nothing to do with break angle. For a given string gauge, and scale length the tension always has to be the same for a specific pitch, regardless of the break angle.
Also in the same sense that you might be getting more or less sustain from the depth of the tail piece posts you may also be getting more or less sustain because of more or less pressure on the saddles and bridge transferring into the body depending on the break angle. Just a thought.
A decked stop does not "transmit more vibration into the body." A decked stop is a more rigid body so better resists deformation/movement from the vibrating strings leading to more of that energy being retained by the string. Standard guitar pickups are magnetic transducers - they respond to string movement, not vibration of the wood underneath. The less of that string energy that is bled off by contact points/contact materials the more of it that will appear as signal at the output jack.
Good thing the wood does not help the string vibrate longer.
But, potentially, the body of the guitar and the string sympathetically resonate with each other via the strings could contact with the tuners, nut, bridge and tailpiece, thereby extending the length of time the string will vibrate for.
@@neighbourhoodmusician No.
At least not unless you are talking about amplification feedback. That is another can of worms entirely. (mostly because it represents an additional energy source adding energy back into the system .)
In the absence of such additional inputs, when you pick the string you add energy to the system, resulting in string vibration, which generates the output of the pickup. Unless you pick the string more the amount of energy present only dissipates. The wood can never give more energy back to the string than that which it absorbs. In reality it will always return much less than it absorbs.
Because entropy and laws of thermodynamics are like that.
@@ThomasD66 Three points:
1. Guitar bodies absolutely do resonate and affect other bodies they touch (put a guitar body on a table and then play it)
2. That resonation clearly affects the strings because playing one string makes the others resonate and require muting.
3. We are absolutely always factoring amplification into this because that's how we play guitar.
I don't think you can take body resonation out of the sustain question. It may have an extremely limited effect on tone but the body can certainly be factored into the question of sustain.
I have a lot of Vintage Guitar Magazines and one issue has an article about the debut of the Les Paul. It showed original catalog graphics of the first TOM models where the images were actually hand drawn instead of photographs. The artist had drawn the guitar with Top-Wrapped strings - meaning the guitar he was looking at was top-wrapped. That means they were top-wrapping the strings at the factory on some of the earliest Les Paul guitars with the TOM bridge.
I have read a book by "Gibson Guitars", and the first tailpieces were designed to originally be top wrapped. It has been awhile since I read the book, BUT from what I remember (and it makes complete sense), was that, back in the early days Gibson didn't have machines cutting out neck pockets in the bodies. The inconsistencies from neck angle pocket, to neck angle pocket, varied. You could have one guitar with the slightest neck angle and by the time the strings got to the bridge, the tailpiece could be slammed, or decked. However, the NEXT guitar could have a slightly steeper neck pocket. by the time the strings get to the bridge on this guitar, the bridge is higher, and also the tailpiece would have to be even higher, to compensate for the neck angle. So, it completely makes sense that a guitar with a steeper neck pocket angle, makes the neck have more angle, and makes the bridge have to be raised more, and top wrapping just makes sense. Now, over the past 35- 40 years or so, with more machining going into the guitar building process, the tolerances of neck pockets have become a lot tighter, and neck angles are a lot more consistent. I don't think ANY modern Les Paul would NEED to be top wrapped. I have a 1980 Les Paul that the neck angle is pretty steep. It's either top wrapped, or the tailpiece is up around an inch off the body, and there is STILL good break angles on the strings to the bridge. I have a few newer Les Paul's, and the neck angles seem very similar, and top wrapping is not necessary. Anyway... just passing on some info from Gibson themselves, and my own experience.
1:06 god damn dude 🫠
That'd be th allman brothers..Elizabeth reed
Great test. I will try this top wrapping on my LP
Not much mention that wrapping results in a 180 bend in the string (that can result in string breakage).
👉🏻 It’s the Man, not the Machine 👈🏻
Actually, top wrapping induces a 90 degree bend out the back of the tail piece, with the string then curving over the arc of the tail piece top. The strings do not make a "U" turn of 180 degrees at any point.
@@stephengunterdc9651 Great Video 👍🏻 Another unforeseen issue was that the wire twist at the ball end extends through the tailpiece and can snag the palm of your hand. How I resolved this was to cut off the eyelets on the old strings, and laces the new set through them before installing. This acts as a shim that prevents the twist of wire from protruding through the back of the stop bar. 👍🏻
The correct phrase is " it's the rider, not the bike " !
@@PIPEHEAD
General Chuck Yeager would disagree…
@@nigel900 That would have been his prerogative .....................................
I began top wrapping my TOM bridge-equipped guitars because I kept having the issue of the wound strings snagging on the saddles and breaking off the winding. This was after I took my guitars to about 3 different repair shops and kept being plagued by the same issue. To my relief, the top wrapping remedied the issue and I only had to change my strings once a month versus once every week and a half.
Leo Fender understood the advantage of minimal brake angles.
Especially on jazzmaster bridges, when hit hard , the strings jump out of the bridge. Very important effect !!!😂😂😂
Top wrap leads to better alignment with the saddle, that means better contact.. Also you have take into consideration about straight downward pressure on the saddle posts which changes when you raise or lower the tail piece..
Some guy on UA-cam used an oscilloscope testing the the same pickups/harness in different bodies and the differences were indiscernible....much to the chargrin of the "tone woods" officionados, I'm sure.. Your tests prove that unless you need a 28 second note over a 26 second note you're basically spinning your wheels. 🤘😎
Remove the stings from your guitar and tap the body. You’ll hear those taps through the amp. Wood does make a difference. Just because you may not be able to hear it, doesn’t mean it isn’t there.
Well, you solved the case. You can go to bed now. Night,night.
It has nothing to do with tone or sustain. It is about reducing the break point angle over the bridge. It makes the strings easier to bend - like you’re using a slightly lighter gauge. That’s all.
So why dont manufacturers just use cheap shite pine wood then?, if it literally makes NO difference.
@@michaelconolan2254 Then just raise the tailpiece
Good video. I'm glad the algorithm found you for me. Gonna try top wrapping one of my LP's now.
The “slinkier” nonsense apparently is still alive and well. String tension does not change all things being equal otherwise. Physics.
Well the tension at rest might not change, but during bending there might be a bit more length of the string that you work with
Dr Physics then why is it more common for increased break angle/slammed tail pieces to cause bridges to buckle? ….spoiler alert….because your altering the manner in which the pressure is distributed on the load bearing surfaces…..
@@mateuszkorus300 is correct. This "top wrapping" technique results in a slightly longer string length. Incidentally, the same is true of guitars with zero frets.
I recommend you watch the video from @DylanTalksTone, he actually finds out that the extra string length from Top-Wrapping causes you to need to bend your strings further to reach the same desired pitch/notes and you have to use more pressure/tension to accomplish that then when NOT being Top-Wrapped.
If that doesn't prove that extra string length can have some effect, try stretching a string wire across a room in your house to a particular pitch, and also a 2 inch long string to the same pitch, and see which one is easier for you to stretch up to a higher equal pitch.
I have my guess on which string it will be...
@@alanagottalottasay997an increased break angle changes the direction of the force vector the string applies to the saddle (at the same string tension), therefore increasing the potential for the bridge to buckle, and also creates a higher stress riser in the strings, increasing the likelihood of a string break. Top wrap cannot change the string tension without changing the frequency or pitch, so if tension is the same, there's not going to be any real change in "slinkiness". Yeah, physics.
I like the idea of top wrapping mostly because I like the idea of things being tight, also as you said it looks cool.
I'm a loyal Epiphone man no use for any Gibson
I have videos posted with specs of my High end Epiphones..so there's no dispute or arguments
No Les Paul and Epiphone the Gibson solid body Les Paul guitar wouldn't even exist today.👍👍
Ahh.. the ghetto Gibson😂
@@supadupahilton6848 yeah and the only reason why you Gibson Les Paul even exists today and no one today wants gibson not since JC Curliegh Restored Epiphone back to premium in 2020 ..so open mouth insert foot 🦶 you GIBSON fanboys are very good at that.. keep us entertained
Oh my 2021 Epiphone Les Paul you know the daddy of your GIBSON was $1,499 wouldn't call that ghetto 👍
This is a very thorough video, covering top wrapping vs not in great detail.
Thanks for this; later this week, I'll be taking my Epi LP down and top wrapping. This vid pushed me over the edge; have been toying with the idea for ooh, going on 35+ years now, since I got my first electric (LP electric cheapo copy!!) Now, finally, I shall do this; string breakage is in many ways so much more important to my day to day... thank you very much!! (Just gotta dig my old bottleneck back out!! Along with my old Bluesbreaker pedal!!)
💜🌶🧠🌶💜
I also top wrap for the same reason- string breakage but also because I don't want the posts of the tail piece to become loose or bent from the forward pull of the strings.