Rob Bell responds to Universalism in "Love Wins" debate
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- Опубліковано 8 вер 2024
- To watch the full debate visit www.premier.tv/...
Justin Brierley presses Rob Bell on whether he believes that everyone will ultimately be saved.
Rob Bell is the founding pastor of Mars Hill Bible Church, Grandville Michigan. His latest book "Love Wins: Heaven, Hell and the fate of every person who ever lived" has ignited a theological firestorm. He debated the issues with UK Church blogger Adrian Warnock on Justin Brierley's UK faith discussion radio show "Unbelievable?" in April 2011.
To hear more theology & faith debates visit www.premier.org...
Follow Justin Brierley on Twitter / unbelievablejb
I see a lot of Christians upset about the idea that their God is not as sadistic as they want Him to be.
Markus Rose his teaching simply goes against scripture.
You may be right. But what I said above still stands. God as you understand Him is a sadist, who for His own amusement permits Satan to run wild, when He could instead end all suffering. Who vindictively punishes people with ETERNAL CONSCIOUS TORMENT not for their sin, but for insufficiently praising Him for His single act of atonement, which apparently wipes those sins away from His eyes. Fuck Him. Fuck Him and fuck you.
Markus Rose with all due respect markus, what you believe doesn't necessarily mean it's true. it's either scripture is right, or everyone's opinion of God is correct. it can be one or the other, but it cannot be both. cheers man.
I see a lot of people who call themselves "christians" twisting what we believe and what God is to fit their comfort zone. If God actually follows what He chose to illustrate in the gospels, (which includes both eternal separation and eternal life), this isn't "sadism" and I would hesitate attributing that adjective to God...especially if I called myself a follower of His.
So basically you are saying if God does it, its good by definition. And if it looks sadistic to me, that's my problem, not His, and not anyone elses. But what if I really want to love God, but this fact about what He considers to be justice, namely eternal torment for nonbelievers, is making that love impossible? What then? If God really consigns people to hell for not believing certain things, I can certainly follow his orders, but I CANNOT love Him then. Is that enough to get into heaven?
Isaiah 46:10
10 I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come.
I say, 'My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please.'
1 Timothy 2:3-4
3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
God ALWAYS gets what God wants.
Thank God!
Don’t forget that if we pray according to His will, He will do it. If we pray that all men be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth, which is according to His will, He will accomplish it! But that was His plan anyway
Amen. And to Thomas, He will accomplish it between now and the coming ages with or without our prayers, yet I'll be praying with you for it sooner than later along more Christian's to believe the Victorious Gospel as the church and this world would suck a lot less ;)
Here is what I know. As a father, there is nothing my children could do that would make me want to be set apart from them. There are things they do and will do that anger me, but my love for them is unquestionable. So, if God, is truly a loving father, how could he be OK with being set apart from any of his children? Even the worst of them, a father’s love transcends all, does it not?
Rob keeps asking, "Do you Know?" In response to nearly every question. Come on Rob, they didn't write the book! Just answer their questions and stop sounding like Joel Osteen.
I liked 'The Inescapable Love of God' by Thomas Talbott among others like minded such as Peter Hiett, Brad Jersak and Robin Parry etc.
Narrow is the road and few that find Him!
Back up one verse, Matthew 7:13 says "..., and those who enter by it are many." "It" referring to destruction / wide gate
"... But each in his own order:" 1 Corinthians 15:21-23. Think about it my friend :)
That was about avoiding AD70 , nothing to do with the afterlife!
Evangelical Christian here that was raised on the theology of eternal torment like most of you probably. I am also a critical thinker and a lover of God and truth. I haven't come to any conclusions, and probably won't be 100% on many topics in this life. Thanks be to God I don't have to in order to be saved. Here is a little excerpt I just wrote from meditating on hell and scripture.
Does God call us to a greater righteousness than Himself if he tells us to love all of our enemies, but he himself only loves the elect and hates the rest? We can’t exceed perfection, which is God. So if God being perfect tells us to love our enemies - who are all of God’s enemies? We clearly see that Jesus loved his enemies on the cross when he prayed for them asking the Father to forgive for they know not what they do. The bible clearly states ALL were enemies of God while they were sinners. Therefore, if you are a believer in Jesus Christ you have moved from being an enemy of God to a friend of God. If we are to follow Jesus’ example to love our enemies should we only love those who are currently our enemies yet will ultimately become our friends? We obviously aren’t God and can’t know this, therefore we come to the conclusions that we must love every soul that we possibly can, enemy or not. Therefore, we love our enemies just as Jesus tells us to, but lets say the enemy that we have loved never turns to Him before he dies and ends up in hell to be tortured for eternity. Wouldn’t our love for that damned soul be greater than the love of God? If what Paul tells us about love is true “Love is patient and kind; love does not envy or boast; it is not arrogant 5 or rude. It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful;[a] 6 it does not rejoice at wrongdoing, but rejoices with the truth. 7 Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.
8 Love never ends.” How can we reconcile truly loving our enemies if in the end God eternally damns his?
Philippians 3 : 19 " Their end is destruction : their god is their belly : that in which they glory is their shame. Men whose whole minds are earthbound."
@paullywallee
Rob Bell isn't about being divisive. He doesn't believe in the destructive part of the religion. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that.
The word ‘BRIMSTONE’ or SULPHUR comes from the Greek word THEION that also is translated ‘divine’.
Sulphur was always used as a purifying agent and was used in all incense associated with worship of
God/gods. The root word for this is THEIOO which means to make divine, to hallow and/or dedicate to a god.
Thus ‘the lake of fire and brimstone’ should actually read ‘the lake of divine purification’."torment" greek: "basanizo":"test for purity"
And the same Greek word for how long the torments of hell lasts is the same Greek word for how long the bliss of heaven will last.
Secondly, something else: Matthew 7:13-34: [13] Enter ye in at the narrow gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way that leadeth to destruction, and many there are who go in thereat. [14] How narrow is the gate, and strait is the way that leadeth to life: and few there are that find it! [15] Beware of false prophets, who come to you in the clothing of sheep, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
[16] By their fruits you shall know them. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? [17] Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit, and the evil tree bringeth forth evil fruit. [18] A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can an evil tree bring forth good fruit. [19] Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit, shall be cut down, and shall be cast into the fire. [20] Wherefore by their fruits you shall know them.
[21] Not every one that saith to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven: but he that doth the will of my Father who is in heaven, he shall enter into the kingdom of heaven. [22] Many will say to me in that day: Lord, Lord, have not we prophesied in thy name, and cast out devils in thy name, and done many miracles in thy name? [23] And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, you that work iniquity.
The modern age Christ's: wide is the gate and broad is the way that leadeth to life and many (everyone?), finds it, don't be aware of false prophets, no one is hewn down and cast into the fire, the fire is quenched despite Jesus' words, you don't have to do the will of His Father, and those Jesus tells to depart from Him, he'll just let them come back anyway!
Wow! That’s incredible, maybe God will purify unrepentant people, but that that Christians will have have a place as special place in God’s government of those people and the new world that God will bring about new heaven and new earth.
@@racheladkins6060 If the glories of heaven are eternal, thrn the punishment of hell is also eternal.
The Bible is very clear, God will send sinners to the lake of fire prepared for Satan and his angels. Do you think Satan and his angels are going to be purified? Jesus is very clear, God will destroy both body, and soul, perpetually, forever and ever.
This is some parkour 🤣🤣
Watch the rest of the video in the link shown at the end. It is a good discussion. It seems that what Rob Bell is doing is asking hard questions, more than taking a hard stance. What he is doing is studying and investigating and not just parroting the "orthodox" doctrines, just because they are what people have believed for a long time.
Regardless of what you think on the topic discussed in the video, Rob did dodge the question posed, "Have you back pedaled or soft pedaled what you said in your book since its release because of the backlash?" He simply wouldn't answer this question and it is because he did make claims in the book that he is seemingly no longer comfortable sticking by. This is the primary reason why people should avoid him. He cannot stick to what he claimed, or admit anything he said wrong.
I am reading his book just now, i love the book. I think it is amazing that people believe in a loving God who tortures people forever in fire. Not my God, my God is love and full of grace. God bless you all.
Jesus died for all of mankind and will pull us all to him and I intend to bend my knee to the King of Kings and confess all my sins to him even after I repent from those ways. God bless you and peace be with you.
Is “your” God full of justice as well? Try reading what the Bible says about heaven and hell. The Bible talks about eternal torment, not torture.
Gary Lee it talks about age lasting chastisement. Whatever you read translated it wrong
@@thomasdillon5416 Chastisement means strong reprimand or criticize. I'm inclined to say eternal torment is closer to "lasting chastisement" than eternal torture.
There are no right answers when exploring your faith. Just follow your heart, truthfully.
Str8up_Holiday the point is the word wasn’t eternal 😃
People are wondering why Bell seems so uncomfortable and not giving a straight answer, but think about the culture in which he is making such statements. What has been called "Universalism" has long been titled a heresy from large Christian circles (even though the Scriptures say otherwise) and by believing it is true, brings on a lot of persecution from people all over. What Bell is suggesting here is simply what the Apostle Paul taught in his ministry. We always hear how Jesus supposedly preached on Hell, but His ministry was specifically for the "lost sheep of the house of Israel." Paul's message, one given to him also by Jesus, is for all. That is the message of grace that pertains to all of us. Paul never preached on eternal torment but that Jesus died for all men and that all will be reconciled to the Father through Him. This was Jesus's message given to, and told through, Paul. People excuse Paul's message though it was also from Jesus. His message has largely been forgotten, and the teachings of Jesus that was meant for a specific group, has been mis-used as if it pertains to all. Even if Jesus were to talk of eternal torment, (instead of a place in Jerusalem which is what He really did talk about) it would only be for Israel. Since all Isreal will be saved (as the Scriptures say) this would be a contradiction. God is not One who casts people into Hell to be tortured. This doctrine of devils makes God out to be the enemy. The true enemy was death, that is why Jesus overcame it. Without a ressurection, none of us would be resurrected. This present life would be all that we'd have. But because all are placed under Christ, we will all eventually resurrect as well and have life. After the second death of the non-believing, they too, will come to believe. There is life after the second death for people and this is what it'll result in. Saying that some will be saved under Christ after all had been lost under Adam, holds disobedient man having more power than the Son of God. It makes Jesus and His accomplishment out to be weak. In other words, death is held higher and more effective than Life (God) Himself. God's justice is ultimately over death, not the one's (all) effected by it through the disobedience of Adam. Bell is telling the truth here and when he asks if they would want it to be true, he's simply asking if the salvation of all is what they'd want to see come to pass. Because they have been taught the traditional teachings, they probably think they are disrespecting Jesus by fully being on board with it. God is inviting us to shed tradition and what we thought we knew about Him and really dig into the Scriptures. What we'll find there is not found in the traditions of man, but the truths from the very heart of God Himself. May He richly bless you all, and have a great day.
Excellent comment. "As in Adam all die, and through Christ ALL will (eventually) be made alive (not some)...Last enemy destroyed is death." Logic here. 1 Corinthians 15
I think he realizes that most people don’t care whats really in the Bible they just wanna believe what they’ve been taught so I believe that’s why he’s refusing to answer the questions if he really wanted to he could win this debate because the truth is in original text most of pastors have no idea what’s really in the Hebrew in the Greek totally clueless
Bell gets upset when they read his own words back to him.
Because he's a devil
@Mike Davidson Who says I don't? I always pray for fools(myself included) but he is an unsaved devil leading people to hell with his blasphemies/heresies. Matthew 15:14
“Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch(hell).
@AcousticSoulFire
"What if God decides that no one should go to hell in the end?"
Why would God decide that, after sending His only Son to die for our sins? Why would the life of Jesus be a total waste?
" Do you long for that?" Really! So we now base doctrine on what we long for?
🤣🤣🤣🤣💀💀💀
"how strait [is] the gate, and compressed the way that is leading to the life, and few are those finding it!" Young's Literal Translation (the best word for word translation). PRESENT TENSE. remember CONTEXT!!! He is in Israel, less than 40 years from judgement. All those Pharisees and Sadducees that didn't follow Him, listen to Him. were caught unprepared 70 AD and massacred by the Romans. 1.1 million dead in Jerusalem alone. Very few heeded his warnings and escaped.
It's not wrong to believe that Jesus really is the savior of the world...
wrong! The Justice League are the only ones who can save this world!
Great video! Go see the rest of the video at the link at that end. It's a really good discussion!
Rob Bell's the king of answering a question with an inane question. The epitome of uncertainty and sit on the fence.
HE directly says "I don't know" why do you object to UNCERTAINTY.
That's actually the most sane position.
When i read Bell's book he is very clear he does not know. All he is saying is something is wrong with a view of God that is happy to see people lost. He is not saying he knows what God will do. His conclusion is simple; Whatever happens will be fair, and Love will have won. What that looks like is not something he knows.
He is answering honestly according to his book. Read that book, no place does he embrace universalism as him opinion.
The implication of "Love Wins" is clear. All will be saved. That's universalism. He tries to hide behind the claim that he is just asking questions, but it's not that hard to see what he's doing here. It's juvenile.
Vinnie MacIsaac sadly a lot of people believed he said that because.... he questioned faith in a good way and evangelicals pushed him to the curb... I’m really glad that Tim mackie and Almost heretical are around today.
I listened to both Unbelievable-shows with Rob Bell (I didn't know him before), and was really frustrated how hard the other guests or Justin had to work to get a straight answer from him. I'm glad however that almost everyone seems to feel the same way.
Try listening to and/or reading David Bentley Hart regarding the doctrine of ECT, as he speaks his mind.
He’s a coward
in response to him saying God's love will win everybody over. Scripture is clear, it is obviously going to happen (every knee will bow, and every tongue confess that You are God). However, God's sense of justice is that if you decide not to chose God in the time he has rightfully given you, then you are not fit to enter the kingdom. An excellent picture of this is found in Matthew 22:1-14
Ecc 6:10 Everything has already been decided. It was know long ago what each person would be,so there's no use arguing with God about your destiny.Rom 5:18 Adam's one act of disobedience brought sin and condemnation to all,but Christ's one act of obedience brought life and right standing with God to all. Rom 9:16 Receiving God's promise is not up to us.We can't get it by "choosing" it or working hard for it.God will show mercy to anyone he chooses.
Ugh. Rob Bell is dodging questions. Hence why the guy had to ask him the same thing three times. I do like the radio guys though; they make good points and valid claims.
I watched the whole 'interview' and they really allow Bell to show how much of a wiggling snake he really is. I think that his lack of depth and cowardice is why he left his postorate!
I just want to ask a few questions here. What does it mean to love my neighbor? Who is our neighbor? Who is love? What does it mean to love? What does the bible say about love? and does God love according to the bible's definition of love?
Loving your neighbor, and God, is the ten commandments, and called two great commandments, plus, all the law, by Christ.
Matthew 19:17, 22:36-40
I am aware of the differance between Aionian and eternal life. The Bible uses the same term (aionian) to speak of the condemend as well as the saved see Mat. 25:46. Nevertheless I also do not believe in eternal damnation or that the majrity of mankind will perish. I do believe and scripture also evidences that there are some that when presented with irrefutable truth of God's existance and nature will still spit in His face and refuse to repent. These perish into oblivion, body and soul.
It is clear that not all will be saved. Some will hear the truth and reject it in favor of the world. These people have cast their lot with the fallen angels and in the end will be the chaff that is destroyed. For while it is the will of God that all will be saved man also has a will of his own. However, I believe that man must conciously reject God.
MaxAmoeba all will be saved each to the proper order. There is salvation in our resurrection where all are made new and love God and their neighbor.
There is also salvation where we trust this before it happens, and have life because of it.
Anyone who does not have faith in this age is simply ignorant, they know not what they do. If they knew they would not have crucified the lord of glory. Jesus even forgave them for they knew not what they did.
No one can consciously reject God unless they know in full. None of us know in full, we’re all acting ignorantly, but some of us have been given the ability to trust despite our ignorance.
A lot of people mix salvation up and think we’re being saved from God, when in reality we are being saved from sin and death, the works of the devil.
Run from Rob preaching. RUN.
In Revelation 14:9-11, “A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: "If anyone worships the beast and his image and receives his mark on the forehead or on the hand, he, too, will drink of the wine of God's fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. He will be tormented with burning sulfur…And the smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever. There is no rest day or night..." Do we believe Rob Bell or the Bible?
My take on that last bit, the part about revelation. It says "outside are liars, thieves,etc." But, the gates of the new Jerusalem are always open. So then, those who are in "hell" are welcome in, otherwise why would the gates be open?, all they have to do, as the bible says in 3 different places "whoever calls on the name of the LORD, shall be saved." (Rom 10:13, Acts 2:21, Joel 2:32)
And thus this verse is true forever not just while you are breathing.
And also fulfills "His love endures forever."
@connorthoughts His point was that Bell says, "Do you know? Do YOU know? I don't know" meaning, "No one KNOWS what the truth is," but that there IS a known truth because Christ knew it and revealed it to us in scripture.
And then spiritually revealed to Paul (to gentiles) after the resurrection.
Maybe he's not taking a hard stance. Maybe he's just questioning what so many Christians have taken for granted. Maybe he just wants to encourage people to examine it for themselves, and think for themselves instead of swallowing whatever they are told.
2 options here, either A) Rob Bell IS a universalist and he believes what he wrote and he's just afraid of the questioning and attacks people dish out at him, or B) he is NOT a universalist and totally goofed up this book now giving lots of people the impression he thinks everyone goes to heaven and now he's trying to fix it/avoid his mistake.... What do you all think A or B?
That's right. Some are chosen in this age and appointed to faith in this age. Some are not. It's God's choice.
You mean by "age" the biblical Greek word aion?
@mcrickeo
Mat 7:1 relates to those who do the same things as others and then judge them. It does not say that you should not remove the mote from someone else's eye. It says that when you have removed the beam from your own eye you are ready to remove it from others' eyes. Was Paul judging others when he said: "But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed." (Gal 1:8) "Anathema" is punishment in hell.
"A torment that won't end"... and could that be hyperbole?? Oh it's literal? What about "He who is not against us if for us." oh wait why does that verse need hand waiving but the first one doesn't? If you are going to play the literal game, play the literal game.
Yea I mean He never really actually gives an answer in any interview regarding this question I have seen.
@reliablebow Thank you! "How unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!" Will any amount of debate ever settle such a question? The bible seems to be clear that there is a hell and people will end up there, but I see trying to prove who that will or will not be as an absolute waste of time and the exact kind of hope-sucking nonsense that Jesus rebuked. Rob's willingness to admit he doesn't know is what I would call a fruit of trusting in Jesus's finished work.
As we all know, the apostle Paul wrote more letters than any other apostle (fourteen letters) but he NEVER wrote about "Gehenna". If Gehenna fire was such a serious warning for all believers then why didn’t Paul write and WARN about it? Could it be that most of the people that Paul was commissioned to preach the gospel (Gentiles) were generally NOT familiar with the valley of Gehenna near Jerusalem?
It is hard to imagine that Rob Bell was ever a pastor. He is unable to make a clear definitive statement about anything. I read his books "Velvet Elvis" and "Love Wins" and came away not knowing what he thinks about anything. He contradicts himself frequently. I guess in today's society questioning for questioning sake seems to be a mark of great wisdom. He actually comes across rather like a fool the way he presents himself.
If you get God is about relationship, you get relationship involves two willing parties CHOOSING to be in connection. That's it. Choose. Choice. Keep choosing. God chooses us always. Choose back! Free will! Choice! Love chooses, never forces. God knows the hearts of His creation. He's the one that can give grace where it's needed.
I never said this was the 'only passage' that defends this position. There are plenty of others. The fire in Hell is not the fire on earth. They are 2 very different things. Worms don't survive in fire (Mark 9:48, which also says the fire is not quenched). You say there is no mention of the duration in Luke 16? First off, there are plenty passages that speak on Hell and it's finality. If 'eternal' isn't said in Luke 16, neither does it say 'not eternal'. It doesn't support your position.
The Narrow and Wide Gates
13 “Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14 But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it. Matthew 7:13-14>>>Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.Luke 13:24
I think all can tell that Rob Bell doesn't want to come right out and say what he believes around people who aren't comfortable with what he believes. I feel like he made the claim about the lack of hell to make people feel more comfortable with Christianity when in reality he made people less comfortable with what he tried to make it.
three times Rob Bell was asked directly what he thinks about universalism or all people going to heaven, and all three times he asked the interviewers "do you know?". deflecting.
I'm am not a person place are thing I am simply the verb of love in all and all will know love for I have said all shall know me papa
Rob answers so many questions.. with questions. Some things can't be known for sure, to a certain degree on subjects, but we want to hear YOUR thoughts, Rob, about your book, The Bible, etc. I don't wish to hear you continue to hinge your answers on how unsure the interviewer is on his opinion of the topics.
God loves everyone and will bring all to know Jesus in the end
@reconcilingfire
Having mercy on ALL never meant that ALL shall be saved. The difference is this: "For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, (Tit 2:11). "For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God." (1Co 1:18). God's mercy and grace are for ALL but only those who respond to His cross in faith in order to be saved benefit from his grace. Those who don't are lost.
That’s weird, why did He forgive those who crucified Him then. The didn’t respond to His cross
Surely a loving God would not allow people to be tormented forever. I mean, think about it, does someone who lives as a kind, loving, generous Muslim, Atheist, Buddhist or whatever deserve to be tormented and in pain for ETERNITY? Even a person who has commited the most heinous crimes does not deserve that. A God who is loving and just and fair would not allow that. In my opinion, God is love and all His children will join Him in Heaven.
And what of those who God wiped out during the world wide flood ? He judged them didn't He ?
I feel disappointed that Mr Bell didn't try to argue strongly for Universalism. Universalism has been around since the beginning of the nineteenth century at least, yet it gets little attention. I'm going to read carefully the Bible verses (both pro and con) that people have cited here. Can anyone recommend a good book about Universalism, please.
I can recommend one. The KJV, of the bible, even though I would recommend the RSV, but don't have one.
It comes down to 2 things.
1. Grace. If it's a free gift, it's a free gift. Which means, even nonbelievers, and those who don't care, are eligible for salvation. If the sacrifice of Jesus, isn't sufficient for the whole world, he isn't the Christ.
2. The power of God to forgive, (like grace), and the statements by Christ himself, just before speaking about the unforgivable.
Matthew 12:31-32
Mark 3:28
Luke 12:10
If you know about the entity, called, the harmony of the gospels, this is harmony. The apostles also made reference to the issue.
1 Timothy 2:4
2 Peter 3:9
Its my contention, that except for certain individuals noted in Revelation, it is the mercy of God, to apply the wage of sin, to those who do not recieve salvation.
Romans 6:23
Where as, most of Christianity, and secular society, has a crazy nonscriptural idea that, the wage of sin, is another life in torment, which makes God a psychopath, who rubs his hands, with glee, at the suffering of his creation. That is a matter of misunderstanding. For instance, when the bible says eternal punishment, it is incorrectly deemed eternal punishing. Eternal punishment, is eternal death. Who knows what your understanding is, after 4 years?
So come to me out of love for if you don't I will eternally torment you wether you have ever heard my name or not....excuse me while I set my child in the flaming arms of the idol Baal. It is those who knew the truth and rejected it who will be DESTROYED. Those who found God and understood the principles of His love who have the Son as well as the Father no matter how and by what name or presence. God does not give us a spirit of fear but of love and he does not coerse love from fear.
I should also add that in no passage in the Bible does it describe Hell as a refinement. Hell is punishment and nothing redemptive ever comes of it for the people suffering there. I don't know what version of the Bible you're reading or if it's even a Christian Bible if you really think Hell is refinement. In Luke 16 it is made clear that the rich man in Hell can not enter Heaven from where he is.
There so so many verses in the Bible that disprove the idea of Universalism. You can introduce any human thoughts into the verses of the Bible and say look, the Bible teaches universalism. It's a result of human intellectualism and human sensitivities.
The Bible is full of verses that refute universalism and below are just a couple of them.
"holiness without which we will not see the Lord".(Heb 12:14)
"Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her that he might sanctify her" (Ephe.5:26)
He is correct that some of the churches very first theologians held the view that Rob Bell holds...though I don't agree with him, I find it interesting that the church became a massive political power based on doctrines that promote fear.
It sounds to me like Bell is saying that people choose hell by resisting Christ. Isn't that what the Bible says too?
Rob does not say there is no Hell, he does question the doctrine that says almost all of humanity will end up there as do I. Billions of people through time worshipped a single loving Creator who they believed looked past their sins and into their hearts yet never heard the name Jesus or His Gospel. They never walked the aisle and made Him their personal Lord and Savior. Yet they lived by faith under the law of love. Are they in Hell?
Gehenna appears in James 3:6. To whom was the book of James written to? According to James 1:1 it was written to the 12 tribes scattered abroad, in other words, to the Jews, Jews who would know all about the Valley of Hinnom.
The warnings were given because he loved people and didn't want them to end up eternally damned. He wasn't warning them so they could go, if that's where the question lies. Was that what you were meaning?
Christ responded with Parables and questions that were relevant to what was being asked. This is dodging.
@reconcilingfire
1) Those who reject Jesus must die unforgiven. There is no way of pardon but by him.
2) There will be a time when sinners will seek for a Saviour but will find none. Often this is done too late, in a dying moment, and in the future world they may seek a deliverer, but not be able to find one.
3) Those who reject Jesus must perish. Where He is they cannot come. Where He is not, with his favor and mercy, there is hell; and the sinner that has no Savior must be wretched forever.
"Not everyone who says to me "LORD LORD" will enter the kingdom of heaven"
Yes, but that is penultimate. Otherwise you force the scriptures to contradict; "Behold, I am making all things new" "We have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people, especially of those who believe." "For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive." "Heaven must receive until the time for restoring all the things about which God spoke by the mouth of his holy prophets long ago".
Luke Merrick amen
Luke Merrick you are right
Also we have
Bible > 1 Corinthians > Chapter 12 > Verse 3
◄ 1 Corinthians 12:3 ►
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Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost
So the kingdom of heaven must not be an "eternal life" state right? Bc we know whoever has the spirit is saved
So the kingdom Jesus spoke of in mathew specifically could have been the literal kingdom on earth where the jews would inherit and reign with him. Hence "do the will of the father" is a works based entry fee...we know salvation isnt of works
Why is Rob Bell so afraid to say what he actually believes? I don't get it.
Be careful about misquoting scripture, it says they wont rest day or night, not they are purified day and night...bad hermeneutics...=/
Amen, zytigon. And Teresa, people are so quick to call someone a heretic just because they are willing to examine traditional teachings in a new light. Open your mind to the possibility that God is bigger than the little box the church has tended to try to put Him in!
He is clearly a heretic. At least by what he champions and he straddles against opposing opinions.
@ relyer, So what. According to old school Catholics, we're all heretics. Try David Bentley Hart who doesn't pull any punches from modern day Pharisees.
Its not about money and fame. Its about winning souls for the Lord, and destroying the influence of Satan. I believe Rob Bell's book is clear -- THATS TO ASSUME YOU EVEN READ IT -- but God has a strong desire to amend His relationship with His creation. Its completely and utterly your choice to accept it.
I completely agree with your analysis of Rob, but I think that it is intellectually dishonest to question long-held religious tradition without first having your own opinions worked out and settled, especially from someone who is a leader in the church. We would never accept this brand of leadership in any other context (e.g. what would you think of a politician who questions the country's stance on abortion, but admits that he doesn't have a firm opinion on the matter?).
@Megaritz
Bell isn't cutting it because he preaches Universalism.
@orangeboy97 umm...I think when jesus said that he was specifically addressing his disciple which he did choose and not everyone in general. That's the context of that verse.
Why is Rob not answering their questions straight? Asking back like do you know? Do you long for that to happen? etc. If he firmly believes his position is SO true, then why muddle it at all? It is quite frustrating. What is he hiding?
Who isDavid Carnahan?
Both wrong... people are neither tormented for eternity nor is everyone automatically saved (universalism). Annihilationism is right: the wicked will perish and disappear forever.
Exactly.
I hate it when peoople wear their headphones not right, the cord has to be left, for god's sake the cord left please
How many people here have actually heard of Sheol or hades or Gehenna? The ASSUMPTION that heaven and hell is the platonic and dualistic way that you have been taught after its been dragged through Greek philosophy, THAT should be heresy
@flotopo DITTO, "Do you know?" "Some people in a strand of Christianity have believed that." and "Do you long for that to happen?" are not acceptable responses. It absolutely does not matter what I long for. The question is, What is true?
Naj11 actually, God longs for it to happen, and has said a multitude of times that He will make sure it happens.
Since it’s true, it does matter what you long for because if you long for anything else, you don’t know God and are in darkness!
Well this is Good News. I am a Mormon and all my evangelical friends say i am going to Hell because i am not one of them. They also say that about my Catholic neighbour is going to Hell. Rob Bell has made room in heaven for non-evangelicals.
Rob Bell does not have authority to make room in Heaven for anyone. There has been one way of salvation, the way God ordained it, from the beginning and it will remain that way forever. Regardless of what Rob Bell believes.
Who are you trusting in to get you to Heaven? Rob Bell cannot save your soul from Hell. I do know someone who can, though. His name is Jesus. If you will humble yourself, and put your trust in Jesus for salvation, he will save your soul. Check out needGod.com
+Robert McKay who is rob bell to think he can make room in Heaven for anyone? He isn't God... he is but a man and a very deceived man at that... there is only one way to Heaven that is by the blood of Jesus shed on the cross so that whoever believes in him and his finished work on the cross shall and can be saved.... it's either thru Jesus or you go to hell... and it will be you who chooses where you will spend Eternity
It's no Rob Bell who will be judging you. So best not to stake a claim on what he says, but rather on what Christ has said.
Robert: Some Christians (not all are Aholes) think everyone is going except them, they are very arrogant and my eyes were opened after 26 years of listening to the sheep being led to slaughter and singing happily all the way......it really is about LOVE......millions of death experiences prove that , not ancient stories from thousands of years ago when man was barbaric........
@Ryan Cripps
The refining process has an end. Hell has no end, which is why Jesus lived and died for the forgiveness of our sins. Why was it necessary for Jesus to exist at all if everyone will be saved in the end?
Theo Fane He came down to save everyone from the works of the devil, which are sin and death, and so we would trust Him now ,so we could have life NOW, instead of waiting for the resurrection of the dead!
@OneDayHenry "Do not be afraid. I bring you good news of great joy that will be for all the people" Luke 2:10
"And all flesh shall see the salvation of God" Luke 3:6
"And I, if I am lifted up from the earth,I will draw all men to Myself." (John 12:32)
Just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people. (Rom 5:18)
pUnKrOcKnINjAgAmEr
9 years ago
"Do not be afraid. I bring you good news of great joy that will be for all the people" Luke 2:10"
How many people did Christ die for? Is that not good news? Yet there is a sin He didn't die for - and that's the sin of unbelief. Matthew 12:31 "Therefore I am saying to you, Every sin and blasphemy shall be pardoned men, yet the blasphemy of the spirit shall not be pardoned.
"And all flesh shall see the salvation of God" Luke 3:6"
John 11:50,51
You do not realize that it is better for you that one man die for the people than that the whole NATION perish.” Caiaphas did not say this on his own. Instead, as high priest that year, he was prophesying that Jesus would die for the NATION.
It's not wise to read Paul back into the gospels. The Body of Christ was a secret hid in God when this was written to the Jews.
"And I, if I am lifted up from the earth,I will draw all men to Myself." (John 12:32)"
Acts 17:30
Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent, 31 because He has appointed a day on which He will judge the world in righteousness by the Man whom He has ordained. He has given assurance of this TO ALL by raising Him from the dead.” He will draw ALL to Himself at the Judgement.
"Just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people. (Rom 5:18)"
One needs more than the atonement to be justified, they need faith:
Romans 3:22
yet a righteousness of God through Jesus Christ's faith, > for all, and on all who are believing,< for there is no distinction,
Romans 4:5
Yet to him who is not working, > yet is believing on Him < Who is justifying the irreverent, his faith is reckoned for righteousness.
Romans 4:3
For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham > believed God, < and it was counted to him as righteousness.”
John 3:36
> He who is believing in the Son < has life eonian, yet he who is stubborn as to the Son shall not be seeing life, but the indignation of God is remaining on him."
John 5:24
"Verily, verily, I am saying to you that he who is hearing My word > and believing Him < Who sends Me, has life eonian and is not coming into judging, but has proceeded out of death into life.
John 3:16
For thus God loves the world, so that He gives His only-begotten Son, > that everyone who is believing in Him < should not be perishing, but may be having life eonian.
I could go on and on - but the list is long. Scripture doesn't lie.
The internet is the pastors worst nightmare! People no longer have to rely on them to learn Gods word! Within minutes a Believer can find the original true meaning and definitions of words in Hebrew or Greek such as Hell, torment, punishment, judgement, fire, brimstone, destroy, and the correct context! Believers will be shocked at their findings! They can Google: "Hell is a myth" and come face to face with reality!
Or they can do nothing and just call everyone who done the research Heretics!
Where does the Bible say that?
Revelation 14:9-11 “If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand he also will drink the wine of God's wrath, poured full strength into the cup of his anger, and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image"
i'm astonished that some people still believe in the doctrine of literal hell, which come from mistranslated of some verses; but the wages of sin is death not eternal suffering Romans 6:11; i really don't comprehend why some theologians still believe that pagan doctrine of hell, considering the light that shine today regarding Bible teachings!!!
Ah yes we are so very enlightened today
Matt 18v35 has Jesus say that heavenly father will torture people like the master of v34. So you think that Jesus/ God would break the Geneva Convention Part 1 article 3a. ? The Golden Rule of Matt 7v12 says to treat others as you would have them treat you. So Jesus wouldn't like to be in a hell so how could he let anyone else be there without breaking the Golden Rule ? John 14v13 Why didn't Jesus pray for everyone to be saved -he could have had it? It isn't ethical to let anyone go to a hell
Where is hell mentioned in the Old Testament?
A mere post would satisfy your "curiosity" is it? With all seriousness, you really need some direction and a spiritual mentor. Sadly, too many who hold the same views such as yours, fall prey to people like Bell and other wolves.
REEFBLUENOTCH Bell believes in the Gospel of love. You on the other hand follow the gospel of fear and damnation.
I u/stand your play on words, but the truth of the matter is there is ONE gospel...the one so many have been and are giving their lives for. You know...the one that offends so many (such as you)...the voice of one crying in the wilderness (John 1:23).
You see (or do you?), that the TRUE gospel while striking at the heart of man, condemns sin. Is 58 says, "Cry aloud and spare not...and show my people their sin".
My friend, you've confused loving SIN and loving the SINNER...a mere misunderstanding by those that are babes in Christ or unbelievers...I get that.
REEFBLUENOTCH No! You do not follow the true Gospel. You follow the gospel of salvation from hell! Eternal torture. Anyone who defends such a demonic gospel is nuts and not a Christian. You are part of a cult called churchianity.
SwordofManticorE God is in deed the God of love. However, it is extremely ignorant for us to give God that one title. There are SO many more titles to God rather aside from love. Friend, i want you to read a book by pastor A.W. Tozer, called "Knowledge of the Holy". It's a very good read and brings up some great points about the dangers of shaping God into the God we want him to be.
I think that Rob Bell is seriously dodging questions. There are many theological perspectives but Bell hasn't been clear on which perspective is his! I don't want to argue which particular theological nuances but it would have been nice for Bell to be a bit more clear-cut and answering less questions with questions.
He's not softpeddling...I think Rob just is asking questions, and many people are nervous when someone asks questions, because it upsets the applecart. Jesus tends to do that alot. I hope everyone gets to Heaven, but that is probably not gonna happen, but I don't think it's sinful to hope that it's true. I think that may be what Rob is saying. He certainly believes there is a hell, just hopes that TheStory has a happier ending.....
The title of this video is Rob Bell responds...... Mmm.. I don´t think he did.
Exactly. Jesus saves us from sin and death. Nowhere does the Bible say that He saves us from eternal torture. And He paid the penalty for sin...death. He is not burning forever in hell. Where does the Bible say that the wages of sin is burning forever in hell?
You said it best. Rob Bell is a PHILOSOPHER. And he bases his philosophies on some Christian ideas. He confuses the issue by asking what THEY think instead of answering the questions. What a deceiver...
Bashir was to the point, targeted, and without agenda, he kept on topic. Bell Conversely danced around the question and never did answer. That said, the question that either God is omnipotent and not caring, (for people in Japan), or impotent and loving, leaves out a third and (correct) proposition, God is omnipotent, cares deeply about tragedy and Has done something about it. He sent Jesus who commissioned The Church to be his caring, healing hands in this world.
it's interesting that the premise of salvation by Jesus is the failure of the Law. the thing that the church will not admit is that it cannot put grace above law without saying god did indeed fail.
+BenjJr Graham not so Jewish Benj Jr Graham. Christ fulfilled the Law... for we are no longer under the law but under grace... the law was given to show man his sin and that he cannot save himself... where the law condemned every soul Grace came through Christ. no one could keep the law and God knew that.. that is why Jesus came to set people free ... I won't go on any longer because I know that unless the holy spirit reveals what I am trying to say to you. you will not believe but only mock..... may he deal with your heart.
A local false teacher here in the northwest who is currently attending the masters seminary.
Rob Bell mentions several gruesome incidents in his book to illustrate his view of hell on earth. He’d seen many kids in Rwanda who had their limbs hacked off by machete wielding soldiers. What kind of hell is this when the innocent are the ones who suffer the earthly pangs of hell whilst the perpetrators go free? He’d also sat with a woman while she talked about what it was like to be raped. Did she choose to suffer the hell of being raped? Bell is crazy to think that she chose hell on earth.
@skylarrayyoung If you believe that then you are going against the Bible. in John 15:16 it says that Jesus choose us and we DIDN'T chose him.
I'm all for personal research, checking up on material and facts...but this must clearly go against what Jesus thought? There's way too many scripture passages that tell that you NEED TO know God and be forgiven thru his son.
People are choosing Hell now because they don't know Christ, they reject the Christ that they have moulded, a false Christ. I don't believe anyone would reject the true Christ.
It's a nice thought, but it's wrong. And if it is wrong people who believe you are going to suffer the judgment you're claiming they never will. Do you really want that on your conscience?