Rob Bell and Andrew Wilson // Homosexuality & The Bible // Unbelievable?
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- Опубліковано 5 лют 2025
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Part of a wider discussion on the Unbelievable? radio show/podcast. To hear the full debate: goo.gl/JH23v
Rob Bell returns to Unbelievable? 2 years after his debate on the controversial best-seller 'Love Wins,' to talk about his latest book 'What we talk about when we talk about God'.
Andrew Wilson is an author and theologian with the New Frontiers church network. He quizzes Rob about his view of God, and his recently stated support for gay marriage.
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I'm not really a Christian in the traditional sense but I have to say that, from what is shown here, the only thing that Rob Bell made clear was that he was extremely uncomfortable with having to deal with this issue. Everything he said seemed to lack conviction and he didn't really seem to have any basis for what he was putting forward.
Andrew Wilson on the other hand seemed intelligent, thoughtful, controlled and absolutely clear in what he was saying.
The Scripture on this issue is as clear as anything gets in the Bible. It's condemnation of homosexual sexual acts is more clearly prescribed than the affirmation of the trinity is. Arguments to the contrary are without merit.
Any major Christian Church in the US that caves in on this issue simply to pander to the self centered minority who, like the young man in Mark 10:17, want to have their cake and eat it, will be pushing the start button on it's own demise. If it abandons Scripture to gain popularity or to not lose what it has then what authority can it claim?What does it become - a social club - a community center?
TheSmithDorian "...the self centered minority who, like the young man in Mark 10:17, want to have their cake and eat it. "
From my perspective as a gay man it is the MAJORITY who represent the young man in Mark 10v17: they get the choice of celebacy or marriage and spit the dummy at the idea of sharing this 'cake'.
I do not think you are being fare to Rob in saying he looks uncomfortable. All the teachers I know wear one face for teaching and others when in debate. He is accepting Andrew's challenges thoughtfully. Would you rather he step out of character in that respect?
differous01
“From my perspective as a gay man it is the MAJORITY who represent the young man in Mark 10v17: they get the choice of celebacy or marriage and spit the dummy at the idea of sharing this 'cake'.”
Remember that these are supposedly God’s laws - not human laws. So however the ‘cake’ is shared it’s not heterosexual humans that are deciding it.
Your position seems to be that you don’t think it’s fair that these laws/rules should apply to you because you really want to do what one of the laws says you shouldn’t do.
Furthermore, you feel that this law places a much bigger burden on you, as somebody who is attracted to men, than it does on heterosexual males who are not attracted to men. In other words, compliance requires an unequal level of sacrifice from individual to individual.
Yes, it does. But so do most laws;
“Thou shall not steal” - is easy to comply with if you happen to be a rich single man. If you are poor with no job and a family to feed it’s much more difficult.
“Thou shall not commit adultery” - For most of human history the majority of marriages have either been arranged or out of family duty or economic necessity. Most of the time the man wouldn’t have had a choice over who he was marrying and the woman almost never would. Being physically attracted to your spouse was not a factor that was given much, if any, consideration. If you happened to be married to somebody that you found to be physically repulsive it’s going to be more of a strain to resist committing adultery than if you were married to someone that you find to be physically attractive.
“Thou shall honor thy Father and Mother” - Easy if your parents are caring kind people that want the best for you. Harder if your parents happen to be abusive assholes.
It’s the same with lots of modern laws. If you drive a clapped out old VW Beetle that can only do 65 mph and you do all your driving on city center roads, keeping below a speed limit of 70 mph isn’t hard to do.
Christianity has never been about equality or fairness or justice in this life. It’s almost the opposite. It’s about doing what you need to do in this unfair, unjust world to gain equality, fairness and justice in the next life. The Bible is full of inequality - between Jews and Gentiles, Men and women, married men and single men, free men and slaves. The message is that the inequities will be made right at the end; it’s not that everything should be peaches and cream right now. It’s essentially, suffer, make your sacrifices and keep the faith.
“I do not think you are being fare to Rob in saying he looks uncomfortable”
I think he does look uncomfortable but understandably so. He has drawn quite a lot of criticism from conservatives in the past over what they considered to be populist positions that he has taken and advocated. What he is saying here will undoubtedly draw even more. It’s not just the issue of accepting homosexuality itself; it’s as much to do with why he is advocating acceptance. If he was arguing that certain Biblical passages had been misinterpreted or mistranslated and that the correct readings did allow room for homosexual physical acts to be acceptable under some circumstances - he’d still be criticized but probably only fairly lightly and not by every Church leader.
But he’s basically arguing that as time goes by Church membership will suffer if it does not change its position because acceptance of homosexuality is becoming more widespread in the general population all the time. And he’s probably right.
The Church establishment on the other hand feels that God’s position does not change with every fad, fashion and folly like man’s position does. And that if the Church was to amend its doctrine and teachings on the basis of their popularity among society or even the global or nation al congregations, then it’s no longer a Church but rather a social club that changes its rules every time the wind changes. And I think that they are right.
TheSmithDorian"...these are supposedly God’s laws ..."
Supposedly? Really? You believe this?
"How can you say "we have the law" when the lying pens of the scribes have altered it?" (Jeremiah8v8)
That's in the Bible btw.
If the doctrine that the Bible is the word of God was meant to mean what you are saying - that it's infallible - wouldn't the crede makers have declared the Godhead to be composed of the Father, The Son and the Holy Spirit and the Holy Bible?
That is the position you [EDIT: sorry, not you, but some I have met] are elevating the Bible to.
differous01
“Supposedly?” Yep.
“Really?” Yep.
“You believe this?”
My beliefs are not the issue. I’m just giving you what the orthodox Christian Church position is.
"How can you say "we have the law" when the lying pens of the scribes have altered it?" (Jeremiah8v8)
That's in the Bible btw”
This passage is referring to the practice in Jeremiah’s day of scribes copying sections of the law from the Torah and reproducing them in such a way as for it to be beneficial to themselves or their Patrons.
But the Torah scrolls themselves weren’t corrupted. They were treasured possessions that remained in a family or in the temple for generations. They couldn’t be altered and they were hugely expensive works of craftsmanship. Their production was heavily regulated and incredibly time consuming and labor intensive. Which is why copies of only the relevant sections of the law would be made as their patrons required.
“If the doctrine that the Bible is the word of God was meant to mean what you are saying - that it's infallible…”
I didn’t say that.
”wouldn't the crede makers have declared the Godhead to be composed of the Father, The Son and the Holy Spirit and the Holy Bible?”
Not really. The first 3 are supposed to be eternal spirits existing in a spiritual realm - the last one is just a book. It might have trouble staying afloat up there in heaven.
You seem to be introducing the possibility that the Bible might be wrong in what it says about homosexuality By which I mean misinterpreted, mistranslated or intentionally altered so that it doesn’t reflect God’s word on this issue. But you’re not actually coming out (no pun intended) and saying it.
So let me ask; do you have any real reason to think or evidence to support the idea that the passages on homosexuality in the Bible as they currently appear do not reflect what the original author wrote / intended them to mean?
I’m curious - the way you write suggests that you consider yourself to be a Christian. If you don’t then why would you bother about what it says? But at the same time you seem prepared to question whether the Bible is either accurate / true or the word of God to resolve this issue of homosexuality.
Does that not create a huge conflict for you? If you can deny the Bible’s authority or veracity on this issue, which is pretty clearly set out and not the subject of any dispute concerning translation or interpretation, then on what basis can you take any other part of it as the foundation for your Christian beliefs?
‘That is the position you are elevating the Bible to.’
Nothing could be further from the truth. I’m giving you the orthodox Christian position. I’m telling you how Christians that believe that the Bible is God’s word, arrive at that position
You asked about my beliefs concerning the Bible and OT law. Below is a copy of a comment that I posted some weeks back on a different video. It should give you a good idea what I think personally;
*****************************************************
31 December 2014
He's asking the wrong question.
The question should be; - 'Am I correct in thinking that the Bible is God's perfect word'?
It can be broken down further to get to the answer;
1) Did either God or Jesus ever instruct man to formulate a Bible?
2) Did either God or Jesus ever tell man what books should go into the Bible?
3) Did either God or Jesus ever give man any criteria to enable him to decide which books should be in the Bible and which should not?
4) Did either Gods or Jesus ever confirm that the books that are currently in the Bible are the correct ones?
5) Did either God or Jesus ever say that the canon was closed?
6) Did any of the biblical authors ever claim to be writing under God's 'inspiration'?
If the answers to 1) - 6) are 'no', then the answer to the main question must be 'NO'.
****************************************************
TheSmithDorian First of all my apologies.
1/ I did not check your back posts to see what you were defending. I was lazy, so I thought I'd just ask if you believed it.
2/ putting the emphasis on "really" - and all that flowed from it - was hubris; it presupposed your purpose.
Regarding my beliefs I used to be a Christian, but now I'm atheist/agnostic. Yes, it was an irreconcilable position. After 7 years of celibacy it became intollerable that I was not seeing any sign of the healing advocated.
I have read Karen Armostrong's works on how the Bible was written. Jeremiah 8v8 is coincident with the revisions to the Torah which, evidence strongly suggests, went on under king Josiah. The scribes in question are known as the 'Deuteronomists' or 'second law makers'. What we have in the Bible now is the result of this and, maybe, the later revisions under Ezra. That final revision is coincident with Ezekiel whose "you have made Sodom a byword" COULD be a rebuttal of the Levitical injunctions. It is a weak position though. Your 6 questions are a much more elegant approach to the problem I've been wrangling with.
Thank you very much for taking the time.
Great example of disagreeing politely. I hope that more Christians can disagree without being mean to one another. Just be honest with what the foundations of your beliefs are... know why you believe what you believe about every issue.
17:35 is the most poignant, yet said unintentionally, point that Rob Bell makes. People don't want to go to church if said people are confronted with Biblical truths. Just as it says, the dark does not want to be exposed by the light. It is not the job of the church to affirm sin and make its congregants more comfortable.
One of the fundamental problems I have with what Rob Bell is saying is where he puts stock into what is most important. He basically says traditional Christian views on homosexuality is the reason so many people don't want to be a part of the church. The part he doesn't answer throughout this interview is whether he believes homosexuality is a sin as stated in scripture.
Here is are my one question for Rob Bell:
Mr. Bell you state that because a gay couple has been living happily together that this somehow makes the homosexual lifestyle OK. If a person were living as a Muslim, Hindu, or any other religion, would you stop preaching Acts 4:12 to make the church more inclusive to more people?
If you notice Rob Bell talks a lot about culture and time we live in. This is a huge issue right now. We live in a time where Pastors are striving for church growth. In order to grow you must stay relevant. However so many Pastors are sacrificing biblical integrity in the name of relevance. God is timeless! It is possible to be relevant and still speak the truth! Sin is real and must be addressed but under the covering of love!
Exactly. He's for the world not God
What brought you to this video? I’m genuinely curious because you’re the most recent comment I see here.
Really grateful that they were able to have a spirited exchange. Regardless of where one lands on the issue, to be able to dialogue openly, genuinely while simultaneously disagreeing, sharply, is pretty nice to see.
It is odd that this issue gets to be such a dividing line. The scripture makes me feel that it is sin. Yet personally I'm far more offended by liars than gays. It is an easy sin to pick on for those ofus not tempted of it.
Yes, both of these men model how to respectfully dialogue and disagree within a Christian brotherhood. Thankful for their spirits.
Rob Bell is defending the reason why people don't want to be part of the church . He even called it " bullshit" . Did Jesus preached the Gospel of how to be part of a church or repent of sin and your sins will be forgiven ? This are 2 different things . He wants to build a church , not to call people to repent and turn away from their sin. I'm very impressed on how much sympathy is showed to people rather than a crucified, suffering Jesus on the cross to make a way for you to get to His Father? How can you show more empathy with people rather than your Creator. If the Bible says it is abomination for me to lie , doesn't matter if was said 2000 years ago.
Rob says "This is why so many reject the church because they call into question orthodoxy" This issue with the statement is that he assumes many will come to Christ, this is not scripturally true. Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it(Matt. 7:13). As Christians we need to remember the greatest commandment, to love the Lord your God with all your heart. He comes first and his ways are right!! Few will enter the kingdom because of mans greatest sin, PRIDE. If we cannot humble ourselves to give up our own desires, then we cannot love God and follow him.
Good luck getting a straight answer out of Rob Bell. He's the king of obfuscation.
Rob did a brilliant job.
I have yet to find him answering a straight question with a straight answer. As a result, I don't trust him.
He was answering but they were not connecting. Andrew was honed in on the act itself. Rob was describing the role he sees gay people in the church … in committed relationships, not just having sex in temples, etc
This is sad 😢 Rob can't express his position straight
“That’s how the world is.” And we are not to be like the world. 😔
We Christians need our own "It gets better" videos, showcasing how as believers we've struggled with sin and conquered it, or at least overcome it. If we ever think we're alone struggling with a sin, or that others have never gone through what we're going through, we can be certain there are believers all over the world who share our struggles, our victories, and even our defeats. No matter what you're dealing with in your life, please remember you're not alone. You have millions of brothers and sisters ready to support and love you, no matter what you're dealing with and no matter how unacceptable you feel you are. We're in this together!
Acts 17:28
‘For in him we live and move and have our being.’ As some of your own poets have said, ‘We are his offspring.’
Far better to trust in God for our support and comfort .Proverbs 3.5-6
Homosexuality is NOT a sin. To say so is to misunderstand Scripture.
@@daodejing81 Do not lie, that is a sin, just like practicing homosexuality. I hope that my previous writing convicts you as you are completely wrong. "Then you would specifically have to deny that the Holy Spirit was leading the Apostles in truth and away from error and would continue to throughout the ages, John 14:26, "But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you." and you would have to go further with not only denying that promise of Christ but the words of St. John when it comes to the Holy Spirit teaching us, 1 John 2:27, "As for you, the anointing which you received from Him abides in you, and you have no need for anyone to teach you; but as His anointing teaches you about all things, and is true and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you abide in Him." You specifically would have to deny these since as we go on we know that the Holy Spirit came upon St. Paul and Jesus even specifically teaches on the sermons of the mount in Matt 5:18, "For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the law until all is accomplished." and to accept that things are different because culture has changed which seems to be the point of your argumentation you would once again have to deny St. Paul's teaching again on not conforming to the world in Romans 12:2, "Do not be conformed to this world but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that you may prove what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect." Saying that because we live in different times God has changed his mind on something He said was sin is changing God, it's literally stating a fact on God without saying anything about God. The thing that would be implied by such a conclusion would be "God was wrong or God isn't perfect" I would argue to the complete contrary and even go further and say that He, Jesus specifically put a Church on earth for the salvation of men that would be lead by His promises to St. Peter, in Matt 16:17-19, "And Jesus answered him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jona! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven. And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.” This would point to the Catholic Church, which has always followed the Biblical instructions unlike common Christians of today, and all the evidence points to the Catholic Church being the legitimate Church Jesus Christ put upon earth with not just Scripture but with history and physical miracles that cannot be explained by science today. Also to suggest that it is not immoral for a man to be with a man is contrary to everything I have put forward and what all the Ancient Churches have taught and never wavered on. This is what happens when we get people who don't follow the Church God specifically put on earth, we have to start rejecting the teachings of not only the Apostles but of Jesus and imply that God was wrong or not perfect. This is a deception of the devil, plain and simple. I have eyes to see and it is clear to me, it's clear to the Apostles and Jesus, and it's clear to His Church. Also you imply that nowhere in the New Testament doesn't teach Polyamory but I would argue it is implied especially since we do not see this in the early Church which if you follow the Scriptures they were lead by the Holy Spirit and still are today, how do I get this inference you may ask? In Gen 2:24, "Therefore a man shall leave his father and his mother and hold fast to his wife, and they shall become one flesh." Now we know that Adam only had Eve in the garden, God made it that way and I don't see how multiple people could become one flesh, it does not make sense and I would say Jesus implies this Himself in Matt 19:4-6, "He answered, “Have you not read that he who created them from the beginning made them male and female, and said, ‘Therefore a man shall leave his father and his mother and hold fast to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh’? So they are no longer two but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let not man separate.”" Jesus was speaking on how God allowed them to do things the way there weren't supposed to be because of their hardness of hearts, it wasn't suppose to be that way it was suppose to be the way God originally made it, one man and one women come to be one flesh literally when they have children which is the commandment of God in Gen 1:28, "And God blessed them. And God said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth and subdue it, and have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over every living thing that moves on the earth.”" you cannot not fulfill this commandment and bring glory to God while in a man on man or women on women relationship, it is actually impossible for them to become one flesh the way God made it to be so it is in direct opposition to God and Jesus never refuted Lev 20:13, "If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall surely be put to death; their blood is upon them." He actually affirms it in Matt 5:18 as I have already shown above. I can only agree to "Love God with all you are, love your neighbor as you love yourself." we are called to direct people out of sin and error those of us that are living in truth however with the Holy Spirit and from your implication it seems you have conformed to the world and "that's just the way things are" when in many different places it is condemned to "be a friend of the world" 1 John 2:15, "You adulterous people! Do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God? Therefore whoever wishes to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God." and in James 4:4, "You adulterous people! Do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God? Therefore whoever wishes to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God." James 1:27, "Religion that is pure and undefiled before God the Father is this: to visit orphans and widows in their affliction, and to keep oneself unstained from the world." and the worst in my opinion for supporting this world view, 1 John 5:19, "We know that we are from God, and the whole world lies in the power of the evil one." Do not conform to this world and the way the world wants things to be, it is of the devil as he has domain of the world which is another Biblical teaching but I think I have made my point quite clear that even purpose the rhetoric you have written is putting you at enmity with God and I hope you repent from it and actually accept the Holy Spirit and His teachings. My prayers go out for you."
@@daodejing81 We are not the ones who misunderstand Scripture, you are the one who is ignoring it when it is clear to see that God is perfect and did not change.
No Rob, it's not Christians harping on "one issue". That's a straw man and your disgust is just a convenient sound byte. It's far larger and homosexual behavior issue is simply a great example of the greater issue. Great summary by Wilson at 19:45. That is the real issue. It comes down to whether or not you believe that the Scriptures are reliable and whether or not you believe that following Jesus means submitting our will to God's as we see it revealed in the Scriptures. As Wilson says, if you believe that the culture informs our behavior as a Jesus follower just as much as the Scriptures do, you end up where Bell stands. And perhaps Bell is right. But you need to know how deep the water is that you are wading into when you stand with Bell on this issue.
Great conversation! Thank you Rob and Andrew.
Fascinating discussion. I think people are being a little hard on Rob here. He's uncomfortable because he's kinda being two-wayed by people who disagree with him. Not every question deserves a yes/no answer. Often people set you up in simple traps with simple black/white questions, or the questions themselves simplify reality. It's legitimate to question the foundation of a question. I'm not saying I thin Rob is perfect here. I think it's a searching conversation about a really thorny problem, that intelligent, well-intentioned men conduct well.
most frustrating though that we don't see the answer to the perfectly fundamental and essential question asked by Andrew at the end - actually made me thumb-down the video in the end because it was just a tease and cut off at the most critical moment
Most matters live in the Gray. Not black and white
Really well said.
At 14:30 Rob Bell turns to the interviewer because he cannot answer the question and is looking for bail out by the interviewer. The question was valid: just because Bell thinks monogamous gay relationship is not destructive (by his observation), what gives Bell the right to define what is right; God should define, not us. Bell then throws a little girly tiz at 17:30, because he is challenged about being liberal and in gay and muslim style he cries the victim; same spirit as those who use this technique in order to manipulate. Sorry to sound judgmental. Bell evades the issue. It is as if he is saying who are we to say that if a person wants to commit to a same sex relationship partner, then that's ok because it reflects fidelity. But Rob, they are in a destructive, unsustainable, unholy union - therefore it is destructive because they have been deceived and it would seem they have deceived you. Poor Rob and others like him. They truly could not love God enough and love the gay enough to speak the truth in love. Only a true pastor shepherd could do that. Get out of the ministry false shepherds. Rob says, it's why too many people give up. Who is Rob trying to please? He is not set apart for God, not priestly. He is into building a community, happy and nice community. And that's nice. But what about the filth inside the white washed tombs Rob. You want to look good on the outside. These pastors are failing because they cannot get the numbers. Narrow now indeed has become the way and the stakes are higher because the sin is more prevalent and the likes of Ron cannot stand on a limb for God. Fear of man, Rob. "People are tired" says Rob. Truth is Rob is tired. And weak. It's too hard because Rob stepped outside of his calling. Like ANdrew said, which way has Rob got to his position and Rob does not say anything except that it seems it's perhaps too boring and retrograde and God has moved on. Sorry, not a pastor, Rob. Not a Shepherd. Shepherd protects (including from deception) and Shepherd feeds (the truth, not deception). Probably a nice guy Rob, just compromised, confused, tired and weakened. Strengthen what remains. Well done to this Andrew Wilson. Composed, respectful and sincerely trying to see how Rob came to his position. I hope Rob sees the light. Purity and holiness are compromised. Rob is either not saved, or deceived. Yes, many problems in the world, but God is holy, "therefore be holy."
6:37 mins for rob bell to not answer the question….does Jesus support homosexuality.
It’s very worrying that andrew is able to pull rob apart so easily by ask very basic questions about homosexuality.
Reading these comments, I completely understand why major religion is in a steep decline.
It's true, but it's because people love their sin and the devil keeps persuading people that certain things aren't sins, when they are
Man you're right and Islam is inclining up because it will NEVER ALLOW EVIL TO BE RIGHT.
I firmly believe that when we get to the gates of heaven Jesus will greet us and say, "you've done a pretty good job down there sharing my love, but you should have been SO MUCH MORE generous with my grace. Why weren't you more generous with telling people that I love them?"
We put God in such a small box that we can't even comprehend how God's love is so much grander and more beautiful than anything we can do here. We are not generous enough with God's love. I felt this interview showed that. Rob is on a whole other level than the other two. Rob understands that when we face Jesus after we die.....it won't be defending what we did, it will be hearing from Jesus that we were too stingy sharing His love. We are all too stingy sharing God's love. And watching the fight over homosexuality is proof of that. Stingy! I really dislike the God that the orthodox conservative Christians share. It looks nothing like the radical God Jesus showed us when He was here.
What does the radical God Jesus showed us look like?
@John Hammons I think you like to dismiss anyone who doesn't believe like you. Have I missed your judgement or am I correct?
Listen, you don't get to judge whether someone is a Christian or not. As a matter of fact, Christianity is a religion that was created by men. The person of Jesus didn't come to create a new religion a new religion. Jesus explains this to Pharisees. He stated that he came to establish the God's Dominion on earth and to unite the people back with God. I'm paraphrasing, of course. For you to say that Rob Bell is not a Christian, accurately, I can say that you are very judgemental. Judging is a sin, just in case you didn't know that.
No, God put God in that particular box. The "radical God" Jesus showed us when He was here is exactly the God who forbade same-sex sexual behavior and requires repentance. Jesus even said that not a jot nor a title would pass from the moral Law until He returned.
He also approved of intellectual honesty And He wouldn't recognize Himself in the Jesus you imagine.
You, my dear, get it.
St. Thomas Aquinas and the definition of true love, "To love is to will the good of the other." Christians will (or should) have this as there definition of love as it only has one result if done correctly, I like to add on "To love is to will the good of the other even if they do not will it themselves." I will the best for everyone, that would be for them to make it to Heaven, to tell someone what they are doing is condemned by the Apostles who were lead by the and taught by the Holy Spirit, 1 John 2:27, "As for you, the anointing which you received from Him abides in you, and you have no need for anyone to teach you; but as His anointing teaches you about all things, and is true and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you abide in Him." so we can easily infer that there teaching is solid and from God unless you wish to reject Scripture which I wouldn't suggest but it appears you already have. It is not hateful to warn someone to not run into a burning building, even if they want to run into that building to get a photo and get made at you for warning them of the path that will lead them down. You seem to completely misrepresent what Jesus taught, you do know that Jesus spoke on Hell more than any other person in the Bible? No joke look it up, and he did condemn homosexuality when he affirmed the law in Matthew 5:18, " For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the law until all is accomplished." You have made your own image of who Jesus was which usually happens when you don't understand what Jesus really taught; Jesus taught real love, to warn people on the path they are going towards and to "Turn back and live!" to repent of sin and to "Sin no more" your message is for those who can't accept who Christ really is when the reality of what you said that Jesus would call us stingy even though we followed His word's and His Apostles? No the reality is that Jesus will say to you "Why did you lead souls on the pathway to hell?" which is what you are trying to support with a veil of compassion and empathy. I think you do truly love God but you do not have the proper definition of what true love is which is what makes you completely wrong and actually at odds with Christ. My prayers are with you and I warn you to turn back and repent. Christ did establish a Church on earth for the salvation of mankind and if we look at history and the evidence as well as the Scriptures we see that His true Church is the Catholic Church which has been here since Jesus established it and gave the keys to St. Peter.
Paul should be allowed to speak for himself. Here he is: "26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. 27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error." Romans chapter 1. Rob Bell is a bad joke.
Matthew Oakley yeah because Paul spoke English 😂😂😂
Jay Kutcher uhm, those are words translated in english sherlock.....
The passage you quoted refers to heterosexual people who abandon their opposite-gender relationships for same-sex prostitutes. It has no bearing on homosexuality. Have anything relevant?
Oh gosh.eyeroll.read the text according to the context!
The idea that Paul "said" something that was translated from its original language 2000 years ago and it's survived being printed by hand for distribution until the mid fourteen hundreds with the advent of the printing press-- never mind the endless translations and edits by men who were all as insecure about gay people as you are-- to believe what you are reading now is what he actually said is absolute insanity. The bible was compiled 80 to 500 years after the events took place. People get misquoted NOW with cameras and voice recorders. Have an ounce of historic empathy and maybe an ounce of humility.
God bless Rob Bell.
Lev is 3,200 years old and the Law was fulfilled by Christ. Andrew keeps hanging his argument on the twin verses in Leviticus. Why? Is he under the Law?
He seems to think it defines sexual orientation.
It simply outlaws one particular sex act (if translated as it traditionally is the Hebrew is sparse and open to alternative translations).
The Law outlaws a bunch of things. No shrimp, no pork, two fabrics cannot be combined, two types of plants cannot be grown together, interracial marriage, etc.
Sodom is about the attempted heterosexual gang rape of angels. All the men of that town, young and old. (This would include Lot's daughter's fiancees).
Romans is about idolatry (Rob hints at that. See v1:23 and 25 before cherry-picking verses 26, 27 out of their context in the passage Rom 1:18-28.
Don't forget, the chapter continues on to include a laundry list of sins, some of which we are all guilty of. Paul is setting the reader up for Rom 2:1.
The book is about why we aren't under the Law and Paul's first major conclusion is that it is a major stumbling block to judge others. We are all guilty. So, don't judge.
There are very few verses that are twisted to condemn LGBT (about 5 as Rob said).
There are almost 40 verses that clearly say Don't Judge.
Paul probably invented the word we have translated (since 1946) as "homosexual." Arsenokoitace could just as easily refer to the male (pagan) temple prostitutes, who Paul must have known of in Cyprus, Rome, and Corinth, where he was Apostle.
People are quick to see the Scriptures through their own cultural lens, but these books were written in a different culture. These temples and these pagan practices went on hundreds of years before and after Paul's time. (See "Sacred Prostitution" in Wikipedia).
Andrew also alludes to the 19th chapter of Matthew, where Jesus was asked about divorce under Moses Law. He said it was immoral even though it was legal.
Let that sink in. The Law was wrong!
Paul called the Law the ministry of Condemnation, the Ministry of Death. Yes, it was glorious. It was glorious because it leads (or is supposed to lead) us to Faith in Jesus Christ.
But people are still running back to the Law for the righteousness.
Notice how Rob defines sin. It does no harm to others. It does not upset their peace.
Imposing celibacy on others does harm.
Requiring people to change their sexual orientation (conversion therapy does not work ) because you judge it to be evil ... That is sin. You open yourself up to judgement, according to Rom 2:1.
We cannot require celibacy from anyone because Scripture requires it, it doesn't (as I've shown).
Celibacy, according to Mt 19, is a gift from God. If God wants to gift it, great. "Let him who it able to receive it receive it."
The former leaders of Exodus International, the first (and failed) Christian Gay conversion therapy group have said: It does not work and it can cause harm.
Suicides happen because of the hate and condemnation spread by Legalistic "Christians." People can be in denial about that, but it is a fact.
What did Jesus say about millstones? Be careful.
Mt 19 was about divorce, not LGBT.
Lev prohibited a specific sex act, not sexual orientation. Romans 1 was about idolatry, it is not the origin story of LGBT.
Anyone who says they know exactly what Paul meant by Arsenokoitace in 1Cor 6:9 and 1Tim 1:20 is lying to you. Sodom was about heterosexuals engaging in the attempted gang rape of angels. Rape is about violence and domination, not sex. LGBT members are not rapists.
Mt 19 was about divorce under Moses's Law and how it might have been legal but, given the cultural implications for the woman, it was immoral.
The Law was wrong!
We are under two commands: Believe in and Love God completely and Love your neighbor as yourself. Bring LGBT violates neither of those. But, being homophobic does violate both.
It judges the "servant of another," (which disrespects the Master) and it does not love your neighbor.
Everyone has sin they struggle with, but if we repent God will forgive us. I have my own struggles but I would never try to justify it by saying that the Bible doesn't really mean what it says.
Your struggles are in no way on par with a gay man trying to live a celibate life.
@@Hoodedcrickets every person has struggles in Life you have no idea what that person is going threw to compare the struggle
Homosexuality is no more sinful than heterosexuality.
Rob Bell does an amazing way of answering the question and escaping the binary framing of the question: "is it sinful or not?" yes or no? For people saying Rob Bell can't asnwer the question he is not dodging it but trying to escape this frame and try to reframe the question to a more abstract level that needs to be clear first: "what is is sin?" Is it something as clear as we would like it to be (binary; yes/no) or can it be broader? It is like framing the world as black and white or to choose to embrace the compexity of color. If you are only used to black and white tv it is suddenly a whole new world when color tv comes along. The same thing can be asked about love, is there only love and not love or does love come in as many shapes and colors as the rainbow?
Rob Bell, thank you for keeping your composure and living your life inclusive, not judging as it’s never for us to judge anyone!
So beautiful that you are loving and kind and your heart is full and open, not closed 💖❤️
Salt Maker you use the words wickedly, deceived, judge like you know me from one sentence that I wrote, maybe if you truly looked inward at your own life, your judgement, your harsh words you may be more gracious to others
We are called by scripture to make judgements. See 2 Timothy 3:16. We are warned against being condemning in our judgements however.
I like Rob Bell, but seemed a bit out of his depth here and wouldn’t answer the questions directly. I do love his heart and openness as well though.
We also need to be careful in not thinking our new modified definitions of inclusion are somehow superior to God’s level of inclusion. If same sex relations do not glorify God we should be willing to sacrifice them. The New Testament writers had every chance to clear the matter up from any confusion from the Genesis and Leviticus texts and yet still speak emphatically and universally against homosexuality.
If same sex relations can glorify God I am all for it! But I don’t see that yet in scripture. I don’t think coming to the conclusion that same sex relationships are sinful makes one unloving and judgmental in any condemning sense.
Nadia Pralija,
Jesus, God incarnate, would disagree with your statement. We ARE to judge, but not unrighteously. I would also agree with the previous commenter, not to condemnation, because that belongs to God and we honestly don't know if the one we are judging righteously will repent of what we are judging them for, or, and this is VERY important, BECAUSE we lovingly HAVE judged their behavior as sinful, which the scripture, which IS the word of God, clearly states is.
This is what Jesus says is the righteous standard by which we ARE to judge:
Judge not that you be not judged. For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and with the measure you use it will be measured to you. Why do you see the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when there is the log in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye.
Mathew 7: 1-5 ESV
We are to judge, so long as we are not guilty of the same sin that we are judging.
You also compliment Rob Bell on his full and loving heart, but scripture tells us,
The heart is deceitful above all things,
and desperately sick;
who can understand it?
the Lord search the heart
and test the mind,[a]
to give every man according to his ways,
according to the fruit of his deeds.
Jeremiah 17: 9, 10 ESV.
God will test the mind and the fruit of Rob Bells deeds, and I think that both, if we are to be Scripturally correct; are to be found wanting.
Rob Bell has been the only person who has been able to make me think I might be able to be Christian. This dude is fascinating.
It is true that the bible does not support homosexuality. It is mentioned in both the old and new testament. However, condemning comments about Rob isn't helpful. I think Andrew has done a great job pointing him to the right scriptures but with a spirit of gentleness and with sensitivity (like Jesus did) to where Rob is at. If you are concerned for Rob, don't condemn him, pray for him. This 'uber liberal' view of certain parts of scripture is common within our society. One that many people fall into. I think it's great that these two gentlemen have chosen to discuss this maturly. If we choose to do the same and not condemn people for where they are at currently, there is more chance of the said person receiving the word of God which we are sharing. Condeming a person only leads to more resistance and we are percieved to be arrogant.
If you have problems for religious/cultural reasons, this can set you free: “On Human Suffering and the Concept of God” - the psychological origin of religious beliefs.
neomodernistpoetry.blogspot.com/2018/11/on-human-suffering-and-concept-of-god.html
or homoeroticpoems.blogspot.com/2018/06/on-human-suffering-and-concept-of-god.html
The bible also supports slavery, do you accept the bibles teachings on that?
Wrong, Moses and Paul seem to have issues with it. That's 2% of Biblical Scripture.
Didn't know Andrew Wilson till this video. This guy is sharp.
Bell is a pro dodgeball player. It seems that he won't answer the question cause he's scared of how he'll be seen. If you're going to share your opinion, you have to stand by it no matter what it is.
The questions are posed as having yes or no answers. They don't. It is like asking someone if they think sex between people of the opposite sex is good. Or something that God cheers on. There is always both a yes and no answer. There are so many times that heterosexual sex is wrong. The bible lists many times when it is wrong. Sometimes it is wrong even within marriage. I don't think God cheers a husband raping his wife for example. Some people believe that sex inside marriage without the purpose of procreation is sin. The question of whether or not sex between members of the same sex is evil is not a simple yes or no question. Rob Bell is careful to qualify his answers.
no, the person who is asking the questions is bending the scenario around, they are not on the same wave length and therefore cannot give / receive a balanced and rational conclusion
@@Bayleu1 But the difference with homosexuality in the Bible is that is always wrong.
@@Bayleu1 like what Paul said about it? 9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. (A)Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor [a]homosexuals, nor [b]sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.
@@jerryjamify
It says that...
Mr. Bell, "Christian tradition" does not call homosexuality a sin. GOD, in His Word, calls homosexuality a sin! You equate Leviticus 18:22 with 19:19 and rewrite the proper context of Romans 1:26-27, among others. Come to the real Jesus Christ, who hates sin and, by the way, described marriage as only between male and female (Matthew 19:4-6).
Rob’s teachings have had a significant impact on me. Because of the great insight I know he possesses, it’s obvious to see here that he really doesn’t believe what he’s saying. It’s all in his face and tone. It seems he is trying to appease friends not in the room above Christ. I still love him and will continue to watch how his journey evolves.
Best comment!
If Rob doesn’t believe what he’s saying he shouldn’t say it. He’s just trying to take the path of least resentment and, in the process, he’s compromising the truth. He shows no commitment to the truth.
@@timmatteson3959how can you prove what truth is without citing your biases? Your truth is what you believe in, not what everyone must abide by.
@ellycd truth is truth. One's belief in it is irrelevant. Rob does not have "his truth". He has his opinion, which may or may not align with the teith.
Rob at 16:32 really gives some wisdom here that the church needs to hear. Disunity is the scandal of the church, not disagreement on this particular issue. And again, why is it somehow okay to disagree on money, or the issues of mental health, and society, and so on, but not on this issue. There will always be disagreement within the church, but we must always work towards unity even within disagreement. We are, as Rob emphasises (but more so see Ephesians 4, and John 17) brothers and sisters and need to always hold onto that.
It doesn't matter the church (or 'religion')-- everyone of them has a chasm. Does not mean it's always about the issues you mentioned. There are other reasons ( differences in worship, beliefs) that causes splits within churches as well. The problem (over arching problem) is should homosexuals/lesbians be allowed to participate ( i.e allowed to be ordained as ministers, get married, etc.) within the church? The answer, according to the Bible is no. BUT does that mean we hate them or dis like them to the point where they are not welcome into our worship services? Does that mean we "kick them to the curb"? Mistreat them? Absolutely not. In my heart of hearts, I believe that is where the problem is.
When Andrew continuously puts words in Rob's mouth Iove the face he makes 19:35
The scandal of the church is that we can imagine that unity consists in accepting false teaching as of equal value with the clear teaching of Scripture. Such false unity is in fact nothing but division.
All of humanity is a tabernacle of Divine Presence, all! I agree with your sentiment.
@@daodejing81 What about Satanist? They were made to love God but they reject Him, and the Bible teaches us that those who make a practice of sinning are children of the devil not of God. So I have to partially disagree but will say that we should all try to be Tabernacles for God's presence
Are any of you praying for Rob Bell? Do you want to see him redeemed from his uncertainty? Do you love him like Christ loved you? If not, then don't assume that you won't be judged for not seeking after the one lost sheep like your Father does. Be ... Like... Christ. Christ didn't come to judge the world, He came to save it. How are you reflecting that example?
Yes indeed.
The difference is rob knows better And should be judged
Bell is a master manipulator - he rhetorically introduces the idea that homosexual practice is a moot point, and to contend otherwise is the actual sin because it drives people away from Christ. He slithers around very direct questions from Wilson. Good on Wilson for a gracious and articulate debate.
This discussion is very telling. It is a modern discussion in the truest sense of the word. Teasing out divine conception on this matter has become increasingly difficult for true intellectuals that have an honest commitment to follow Christ. Why? Because culture matters. It always has. I am not gay. I am a man who has been married for three decades. I was a virgin when I got married. I did what I was taught by my spiritual leaders in the body of Christ. They told me and showed me scriptures to support what they taught me. Here’s where culture comes in: there are three Abrahamic religions, Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. My example is this: when did polygamy become not ok? The Old Testament never condemns it, and we know it condemns a lot of sexual behavior. The New Testament never explicitly condemns it. One wife for a Bishop is mentioned, Jesus references Adam and Eve as God’s original format but does not openly condemn having more than one wife nor does he openly condemn same sex relations. Why not? It would be easy to do and we are referenced as spiritually slow like sheep who are easily misguided. Why not make things more straight forward for the slow among us? The most logical reason is that the modern questions we are asking today were not culturally relevant to the audience he was addressing at the time. Paul spent much of his ministry addressing cultural quagmires in the early gentile churches. Why? Because there were a lot of quagmires. They needed a true scholar to deal with these things and Paul was uniquely qualified. What I’m saying is this: marrying more than one woman at a time is illegal in America today but if that changed tomorrow the body of Christ would be in a quagmire theologically because there is no explicit text condemning it ever. The church would not just accept this change without question. We all know this. Why? Because the body of Christ has it’s own culture outside of the secular world and other world religions. That in the end is what these two men of faith are actually wrestling with. The secular worldview or the church traditional worldview are just intellectual hats they are putting on or taking off. None of us follow the strict law codes or the exact cultural behaviors referenced in the New Testament. We pick and choose. If we didn’t women would be silent in all Christian churches, none of the women would be wearing any make up or pants, and slavery would still be okay in America. According to Paul’s letters that’s the way it should be. Times change and that change is cultural. Love God with all you are, love your neighbor as you love yourself and let the Holy Spirit do the rest.
Amen and Amen🎉
Amen ❤
Then you would specifically have to deny that the Holy Spirit was leading the Apostles in truth and away from error and would continue to throughout the ages, John 14:26, "But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you." and you would have to go further with not only denying that promise of Christ but the words of St. John when it comes to the Holy Spirit teaching us, 1 John 2:27, "As for you, the anointing which you received from Him abides in you, and you have no need for anyone to teach you; but as His anointing teaches you about all things, and is true and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you abide in Him." You specifically would have to deny these since as we go on we know that the Holy Spirit came upon St. Paul and Jesus even specifically teaches on the sermons of the mount in Matt 5:18, "For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the law until all is accomplished." and to accept that things are different because culture has changed which seems to be the point of your argumentation you would once again have to deny St. Paul's teaching again on not conforming to the world in Romans 12:2, "Do not be conformed to this world but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that you may prove what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect." Saying that because we live in different times God has changed his mind on something He said was sin is changing God, it's literally stating a fact on God without saying anything about God. The thing that would be implied by such a conclusion would be "God was wrong or God isn't perfect" I would argue to the complete contrary and even go further and say that He, Jesus specifically put a Church on earth for the salvation of men that would be lead by His promises to St. Peter, in Matt 16:17-19, "And Jesus answered him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jona! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven. And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.” This would point to the Catholic Church, which has always followed the Biblical instructions unlike common Christians of today, and all the evidence points to the Catholic Church being the legitimate Church Jesus Christ put upon earth with not just Scripture but with history and physical miracles that cannot be explained by science today. Also to suggest that it is not immoral for a man to be with a man is contrary to everything I have put forward and what all the Ancient Churches have taught and never wavered on. This is what happens when we get people who don't follow the Church God specifically put on earth, we have to start rejecting the teachings of not only the Apostles but of Jesus and imply that God was wrong or not perfect. This is a deception of the devil, plain and simple. I have eyes to see and it is clear to me, it's clear to the Apostles and Jesus, and it's clear to His Church. Also you imply that nowhere in the New Testament doesn't teach Polyamory but I would argue it is implied especially since we do not see this in the early Church which if you follow the Scriptures they were lead by the Holy Spirit and still are today, how do I get this inference you may ask? In Gen 2:24, "Therefore a man shall leave his father and his mother and hold fast to his wife, and they shall become one flesh." Now we know that Adam only had Eve in the garden, God made it that way and I don't see how multiple people could become one flesh, it does not make sense and I would say Jesus implies this Himself in Matt 19:4-6, "He answered, “Have you not read that he who created them from the beginning made them male and female, and said, ‘Therefore a man shall leave his father and his mother and hold fast to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh’? So they are no longer two but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let not man separate.”" Jesus was speaking on how God allowed them to do things the way there weren't supposed to be because of their hardness of hearts, it wasn't suppose to be that way it was suppose to be the way God originally made it, one man and one women come to be one flesh literally when they have children which is the commandment of God in Gen 1:28, "And God blessed them. And God said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth and subdue it, and have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over every living thing that moves on the earth.”" you cannot not fulfill this commandment and bring glory to God while in a man on man or women on women relationship, it is actually impossible for them to become one flesh the way God made it to be so it is in direct opposition to God and Jesus never refuted Lev 20:13, "If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall surely be put to death; their blood is upon them." He actually affirms it in Matt 5:18 as I have already shown above. I can only agree to "Love God with all you are, love your neighbor as you love yourself." we are called to direct people out of sin and error those of us that are living in truth however with the Holy Spirit and from your implication it seems you have conformed to the world and "that's just the way things are" when in many different places it is condemned to "be a friend of the world" 1 John 2:15, "You adulterous people! Do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God? Therefore whoever wishes to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God." and in James 4:4, "You adulterous people! Do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God? Therefore whoever wishes to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God." James 1:27, "Religion that is pure and undefiled before God the Father is this: to visit orphans and widows in their affliction, and to keep oneself unstained from the world." and the worst in my opinion for supporting this world view, 1 John 5:19, "We know that we are from God, and the whole world lies in the power of the evil one." Do not conform to this world and the way the world wants things to be, it is of the devil as he has domain of the world which is another Biblical teaching but I think I have made my point quite clear that even purpose the rhetoric you have written is putting you at enmity with God and I hope you repent from it and actually accept the Holy Spirit and His teachings. My prayers go out for you.
Amen 🙏
Well said
This video should be labeled "How to not answer a straight forward question." - Featuring Rob Bell
Rob Bell elevates his experience above the bible. "Doesn't God get to decide that?" Andrew asks. YES ROB HE DOES!
He’s interpreting the Bible as a season which is what we all do isn’t it
That idolatry and rebellion which is witchcraft when you put your belief above God
@@amberandrews7829 There are different ways of interpreting.
Exegesis is interpreting the Bible based on the words that are there and the context in which they are written.
Eisegesis is interpreting the Bible through different worldviews.
While you can do both, the only one that actually leads to answer the question "what does God say/think about 'X' issue?" is exegesis. Applying our modern worldview and sensibilities like Rob Bell is incapable of coming to any semblance of truth, because everything now comes down to interpretation.
We should only evaluate a culture's idea of morality through God's word, we should never evaluate God's word through a culture's idea of morality because God is unchanging. He's not going to suddenly change his mind about what is and isn't considered sinful.
In the Bible God has shown to work in people's lives and various cultures despite their sin, that does not mean he condones everything each of those people and cultures have done.
God does not equal Bible.
God is within everyone, and most people are unaware, and this Universal Intelligence is quite clear. This world abounds with variety, and we homosexuals are part of that variety.
Your Christian theology has deceived your better judgement. It's people like you who will be among the goats.
As someone who repented for homosexual sin, it seems to me that both men fail to make a point about what active sin will do to a believer. Ultimately, we are to live a life in accordance with God’s timeless Word. Anything that less than that and we risk endangering our souls and the souls of others. If we believe that salvation is a gift and that God is holy and cannot endure sin (of any kind), then we have to accept that His Word set the terms for what constitutes sin. It may seem unfortunate to people like Rob Bell or even me at that matter, but we as fallible, sinful people cannot determine what God says is acceptable. Only His Word can do that.
Rob Bell is so evasive and underhand ... Wriggling around like a serpent at every presentation of clear reality. The last kind of person I'd ever look to for sound teaching. Buyer beware!!
+Richard Fila (費睿哲) yeah? well, your fat....so there, I won the argument
+Richard Fila (費睿哲) It's the doctrine of demons. Only the devil can slide around the corners like that
+Richard Fila (費睿哲) We all have "off" days but this was my first exposure to Rob Bell and suffice it to say I'm not compelled to investigate him further. Also, the hair and the suit, Rob, the hair and the suit.
@@draft1643ooooh .. no need to go low and personal.
I like Rob Bell, I think he has raised some important points and questions for the Christian faith. I think he has lost his way in this area (as we all can). He looks uneasy here and has very little scripture to stand on. Andrew Wilson is preaching a new life in/through Christ (regeneration), Rob is preaching monogamy and commitment, but also a whole lot of permissiveness. It really doesn't call people to a higher level of living.
Exactly, Rob is uneasy and his eyes tell us he is afraid of these questions.
I don't think Rob even views the Bible in the same way these other men do anymore. His book "What is the Bible" is a good example of his most recent thinking. Thus the argument probably is people speaking two different languages.
“For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all.”
James 2:10 NKJV
Indeed. Good to remind hypocrites and bigots of that. Well done!
Nowhere in the Bible does it condemns homosexuality.
Remember what Jesus said. He who has never sinned shall cast the first stone. keep that in mind, people of the comments.
We are all sinners but we have repented and they dont want to repent and change their sinful ways
@@eduardoguerrero2791 it’s not a mf choice. :/
@@pickle248 any action is a choice. I'm not talking about attraction or temptation. I'm talking about the decision to participate in an action that the Bible says is sinful. In the same passage you quoted above, Jesus ALSO says "Go and sin no more." The adulterous woman made a choice and Jesus called it sin. He did not condemn her, but He told her to stop doing it.
@@robknight8144 so gay people are supposed to live in unhappiness all their life to serve an evil god? ok
@@robknight8144 The Bible doesn't say it's sinful. And adultery is very different from homosexuality, especially now that gay people are allowed to marry the people they love.
God's word never changes, just because the world view changes to suit modern times. You are being deceived
Amen.
I disagree. God's word is constantly being adapted and reinterpreted as society progresses. If it wasn't, we'd still be performing human sacrifices.
@@joshuakohlmann9731 Gods word does not evolve, it still means what it meant when it was written years ago.... if I leave a letter to my unborn children that says “I used to drive a red truck” no one can say what I meant was actually a blue car, even if In the year 2500 red means blue and car means truck, the language changed but what I meant when I wrote the letter can’t change.....
Amen x2
@@tommygrinie8904 What people understand to be “ drive” and “truck” 2000 years could be drastically different from what you intend those words to mean today. Additional study of the 20th and 21st century would be required for a better understanding.
I admire that you kept your cool Rob Bell. What an inspirational man.
Thank you for your strength & humility.
Although my little comment on youtube doesn’t matter :) grace & peace,
I agree Brooke I don’t understand the hate seen in these comments.
When Paul wrote (1 Cor. 6:9) of the unrighteous not inheriting the kingdom of God, he included “homosexuals” in this short list, and he tells the church not to be deceived. How could the church be deceived? To believe that the homosexual can continue engaging in this unrighteous act and STILL inherit the kingdom of God. Paul goes on to write, “Such WERE some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.” If homosexuality wasn’t a sin in Paul’s day, and isn’t a sin today, accord to Bell, then what were those ex-homosexuals washed of?
Everything Bell listed about homosexual relationships, i.e., They just don’t want to be alone, could surely be found among the relationships between men in Sodom and Gomorrah. God didn’t destroy Sodom and Gomorrah simply because they “pressed hard against Lot.” God had already pronounced judgment.
Those desiring to have their cake and eat it too, i.e., remaining in homosexual relationships while believing they’re saved, have flocked to preachers such as Bell-he’s made a TON of money at the cost of their salvation. One cannot live the resurrected life in Christ while dragging the old, unburied, carnal man around with him.
I genuinely feel bad for Rob Bell. People like him are what Christianity needs to make it relevant to modern, educated people but when he goes on Christian radio shows he gets grilled so badly by other Christians. Christianity, it seems, is destined to die out alongside all the other religions of the past as people become more educated, more ethical and more compassionate human beings. Christians (mostly) have rejected putting unmarried non-virgins to death, despite the mandate for it in the Bible, I wonder why they can't move past this.
No
Couldn't agree more!!
Hit the nail on the head there my friend. kudos to you.
Well he's Not a Christian
I would kindly suggest that you do a little more study of the Bible.
Andrew hits the nail on the head. Sin is sin. We all have to deny sin in our lives.
I’ve had these sort of conversations with people who come from a distinctly different views of how the Bible is interpreted and particularly understanding it within various worldviews. Particularly in my reasons for walking away from pastoring. And it’s hard to give definitive answers to people who understand and view these things in a different vein than I do. I don’t see Bell as skating around things or not giving solid answers. His answers are solid to me, but I also come from a similar area of thinking.
then with all due respect, thank God you stepped away from pastoring!
@@alisonhardman7600 sex is binary, feelings aren't. Feelings won't get you to Heaven, but giving your life to Jesus and following His Word will.
@@TMcConnaughhay yeah, I thank God for it daily.
Only one of them believes in interpreting the Bible. Rob Bell believes in ignoring whatever he doesn't like. The Bible is not ambivilent on this matter.
The problem isn't the lack of answer; the problem is trying to turn a complex issue involving people into a yes or no question.
As a conservative Christian pastor I studied this issue with a gay friend. I told him the Bible was CLEAR and there really was NO question. After an honest and deep study I discovered that the Scriptures are not nearly as clear as I had presumed. Until you have spent many hours in prayer and study I think it prudent to withhold judgment. Reading the best books from both sides is necessary to really understand the issue. I now am uncertain but my uncertainty comes from a desire to please God and to be honest in knowing that I do not know. Both sides are unhappy with me but I can only believe what my conscience insists on. The evidence is NOT clearly convincing from either side though it seems to be somewhat weighted on the traditional side.
I read Genesis and i see God created woman for man and gave a clear example of the institution of marriage (infact when discussing marriage Jesus referred to this and spoke of marriage as between one man and one woman)
It's doesn't take an expert to realise God designed the male and female sexual/reproductive organs for each other.
So when did every other sexual desire come into the human race? Well obviously when sin entered in after the fall and human sexuality became damaged. If we accept same sex practices must be acceptable because people desire them then we must conclude every other desire & lust people have outside of the one man one woman design in the Garden before sin must now also be ok.
You say we shouldn't speak about these issues. I disagree. When i see the Bible under attack and Christian brothers & sisters dragged to court for standing up for God's word then i think it's time to speak up!!
Remember John the Baptist lost his life for speaking out against sexual immorality in his day.
Thank you for being honest. That's how I feel to
Nuce that you guys feel a certain way but the real issue is your defense of how you interpret the Bible. 1 man 1 woman you say?
Wellwhat if some say NO to that? In your view that is a NO to God and thus a sin. Well houston we have a problem, father Abraham, king David. Didn't they read Scripture! Of couse the Law came after Abraham but Abraham came after Genesis. So this cannot be used as an exclusive model otherwise the father of your faith lived in perpetual sin as well as David, remember the guy that had a heart after God. So as you grow in your interpretive exposure and maturity you may become less dogmatic and might even feel differently.
Crapp accidentally hit report spam sorry folks
+Ken Landry, You said, "I can only believe what my conscience insists on" or rather shouldn't you only believe what the Bible says because as a pastor and as a christian, the Bible is the foundation of our faith and all that we believe in.
"Jesus didn't say anything about homosexuality" doesn't equate to "Jesus had no strong views on homosexuality". It equates to "Jesus had nothing to add to or take away from what the Jews already knew about God's position from the Old Testament".
I take it that you support capital punishment for male homosexual relations, then, as per Leviticus?
The Bible is very clear about what God thinks about homosexuality, Rob Bell will be held accountable in the end by God for leading people astray on this topic.
Prophets: "God desires mercy, not your sacrifices!"
Religious leaders: "Heresy!"
God: "Since you're not listening to my prophets regarding love and mercy, I'm going to give you a long time out in exile in Babylon."
We need to be wary about holding fast to behavioral rules over and against love, acceptance and mercy.
Andrew does so well. Rob is a deer in the headlights with no argument except his personal viewpoint. How very post modern of him.
I used to think so too, but now see Rob having a poise of quiet confidence… in the careful examination he’s done on this issue. He knows what he believes, is wicked smart, knows the Bible as well as Andrew, and doesn’t need to peacock about it. A 20 minute podcast format will never have enough time to begin debating specific bible passages or the nuances of context… and Rob knows this.
Rob Bell is not just wrong, he seems pretty shifty. I suspect Rob Bell realises he is defending a weak position. Seen a lot of Andrew Wilson videos lately, and hats off to him, always excellent.
You seem bigoted.
This might be the most cowardly attempt to defend his position that I have seen from Rob Bell. If you are going to defend yourself, then defend yourself....with evidence. In which he did not. Andrew provided his fallacy of begging the questions and he ignores it. I wish Rob Bell would use scripture and history to defend this if he is going to.
Lee, its simple. Its because there is no scripture found in the Bible that he could've used to defend himself. Period.
Notice the immediate dodge on whether homosexuality is a sin or not.
He literally said he affirms same-sex monogamous relationships...which means he doesn't see anything wrong with a committed same-sex relationship, in case you needed help interpreting that.
Rob Bell is quite a dancer, not answering simple, plain questions. Andrew Wilson does a much better job.
Andrew Wilson should just call him on that. The fact that Bell can't just give a clear answer, but that he has to dance around the question, reveals the truth. Bell doesn't want to explore the heart of the question because it scares him.
I disagree, I think Andrew asked him questions he has never heard before and did a great job. In this circumstance I feel like it's reasonable to not have a canned answer to give and to want to be careful with your words.
He was careful with his words alright. So careful in fact that he practically pled the 5th to avoid guilt, but he said enough to reveal that He denies Christ in truth and spirit.
It's because Rob Bell knows that it all comes down to HOW you interpret what you read. He explained that...What more can you say? Two people read one text and form two different opinions...What then do you do? Rob is open to what scriptures are saying and that's why he seems to take the stance that he does.
Hailee Wilkinson
WRONG. You can't take clear commandments and the way God created man and woman out of context PERIOD! You cannot interpret homosexuality, murder, adultery etc any other way then the concrete absolute truth that it is sin and wrong. You cannot compare prophecy which can be misinterpreted wrong, with absolute morals.There is such a thing as one way and one way only and if you refuse to see that, then you too have been deceived by seducing spirits and doctrines of demons who are the reason these things have more than one interpretation to begin with. Getting back to exposing lying spirits is how we get back to identifying the RIGHT interpretation.
The big difference between Rob and Andrew is, Rob sees the loving relationship between a same sex couple , Andrew only sees the sex between a same sex couple. That tells me Andrew needs to search and question himself first before he questions homosexuality and the Bible.
The most important message Jesus gave us is to love, accept and be compassionate to everyone. Good job Rob! 💗
Don't lie to yourself.
that's a big fat lie!
You get it.
@@ninjasreact
You're the liar. Attend to the log in your eye, and you'll do well.
@@TMcConnaughhayThe only fat lie is in your bigoted understanding. You will be among the goats.
As a christian, it troubles me that so much discussion in christian culture focuses on sexuality, and next to none about violence and war,and poverty.
It's because Christianity is a cult.
There was nothing in biblical times that was comparable with modern homosexual relationships. If you know your history you also know that "gay" relationships of the day were about an old man sleeping with a young boy quietly on the side of his marriage. No wonder that's seen as sinful. Modern homosexual relationships are as different to that as can be.
The bible is a product of its time "women obey your husbands" ect. And should be seen in the historical context it was in otherwise we aren't taking our faith seriously enough. If you don't understand that "burying your father" was a metaphor for taking care of family problems then you don't understand something jesus said to a person who wanted to follow him. Likewise if you don't understand the historical context of homosexual relationships at the time you don't understand what the followers of the bible spoke out about.
Remember Sodom and Gomorrah.
Horse Crap! Read the story of Sodom and Gomorrah and see God's wrath against men sleeping with men! You are so deceived!!
Bell did not defended in a convincing way that others may have done better but Andrew is making a good point.
I think Andrew was being a bully.
@@lexic6081 He was trying to turn Rob away from conforming to the world and it's view on things, we are commanded to do that in the Bible. It is not bullying to warn someone to not run into a burning building, it is loving and caring on the contrary. The Scriptures are extremely clear when it comes to the issue of homosexuality. It is a sin and sin leads to hell, we are also called to turn our brothers and sisters towards that path of life and away from error, Andrew was being loving in reality even if it doesn't appear that way to you.
@yaksohd it is actually not clear because the word homosexuality wasn’t added until newer reiterations of the Bible during the 80s. There’s actual scriptural proof that shows that the original scripture never mentions the word homosexuality. So this whole argument is moot.
@@LYRC11 Then you really don’t know history mate, sorry to burst your bubble but the earliest Christians taught that homosexuality was a mortal sin, we know this by looking at their writings, and the Greek and Hebrew Scriptures from the 1st century. All the ancient Churches of Christianity held it as a mortal sin and still do, Judaism has held it as a mortal sin since Leviticus, literally asked a Rabbi how serious they take the verses in Lev, they don’t even allow men to sleep in the same bed together (Orthodox Jews truly observing Judaism) the first canonical Bible which all Christians recognized as the word of God comes from the Catholic Church in the year 382AD, the first English translation of the Bible comes from the Catholic Church in the 1500’s, guess what? They all said it was a sin that would send you to hell if you participated in it, this is coming from scholars of Greek, Latin, and Hebrew, do not try to argue history with me mate. I will humble you as I just displayed by your own lack of knowledge on this subject, your argument is moot and not historically accurate but my prayers are with you.
@@LYRC11 And don’t not try to claim that “that was gotten rid of with the New Covenant” then you are not literate on Scripture aspects separating ceremonial laws from moral laws. Moral laws are binding and permit, the ceremonial laws were gotten rid of/changed. “While the Old Testament’s ceremonial laws could be repealed, its moral laws that forbade intrinsic evils like murder or adultery are forever binding.” Jesus confirms this in Matt 5:18, “For amen I say unto you, till heaven and earth pass, one jot, or one tittle shall not pass of the law, till all be fulfilled.” Jesus was speaking on moral laws as that’s what the whole Sermon on the Mount was about in hindsight. This would include the moral law of Levi. Just because progressive Christians want to fulfill their own lustful passions in this day and age does not mean God is okay with it or has ever been okay with it. Just how God isn’t okay with sexual relations outside of marriage, marriage is a covenant that can only take place between a man and a women as two men together or two females together cannot “come together and be made one flesh” this is referring to procreation. Two DNA’s form to create one New that has never existed but shares both species of mother and father. This cannot happen outside of a valid marriage. All Christians literally up until less than 70 years ago knew homosexuality was a sin as well, only in recent times have people started to “conform to the world” which goes against what the Bible tells us as we aren’t supposed to conform to the world we are supposed to take up our Cross and die to ourselves everyday. Your argument is just completely invalid when you actually understand history mate.
So sad to know that we live in a world where two guys who live together are damned to hell, but it's "righteous" to insult and hurt people instead...
Well spoken.
Just read the scripture. And by the way, people are offended by the truth, as Jesus said that believers will be hated just as they hated him. How can you understand what is right when someone doesn't bother to tell you what is wrong?
@@DB-dl5zm I don't believe the scriptures are right. Or at least, if that's what they say. Lol
Andrew, you never stopped talking. You did not allow Rob to answer your good questions. Rob ( and I) listened, and listened to your questions for Rob, and then, Rob (and I) listened, and listened, and listened as you answered you own questions; Rob remained silent, with an occasional smile, as you never.stopped.talking.
Rob Bell won't answer the question because he knows that answering one way will lose him popularity with the progressive side and answering the other way will lose him credibility with the traditional side.
At the end of the day Jesus died for everyone. Everyone on this earth. I think many of you commenting should remember what Jesus said about casting stones if you have never sinned.
Being Christian is NOT about what we think and what we feel and what is 'kind". It's about what GOD wants! What HE says! I asked the Lord and he showed me that homosexuality is NOT of HIM. Period. Rob Bell will have the blood of millions on his hands for this and his other heresies and blasphemies.
It’s interesting to me that God gave you specific revelation that God didn’t feel necessary to include in the Bible so we could all know...
“This is why so many people don’t want to be a part of the church.” YES ROB YES!!!!!!! A stance on an issue should not define faith in Jesus as Lord.
one guy uses the phrase "two guys having sex". the other guy uses the phrase "two guys in love". let the battle begin!!
Yes, the terms we choose to use betray our position on these topics; sometimes pejoratively. For example, I try not to use the term "gay" but to use the term "homosexual" which I think is more real, but it also betrays my position on the matter.
Andrew is ignorant. His head is swimming in knowledge, but he is utterly ignorant.
Men professing themselves to be wise became fools.
Its not ok to tell every gay person they have to be alone...forever...OUCH
Thanks to Rob for sticking up for us, its not easy.
It is easier to say..."well the bible is clear on this issue"
I love my Fiancee and God loves us. I know what it feels like to be out of Gods plan and in it. We are in it, and bucketfuls of peace and joy can be found in our partnership. Praise God I'm not alone. I would struggle so much.
I agree 100% with Rob Bell. You speak clearly and truthfully, Rob. George MacDonald would be proud of you! Love does win!
Listening to Rob Bell NOT answering questions is very frustrating.
By the time he answers the question my 5 year old will be in college.
I will say this though, Rob Bell conducted himself VERY WELL! Even when they began over talking him and trying to corner him. He kept his cool and his facial expressions were priceless. Lol
He was VERY uncomfortable, and I feel bad for him actually.
Talking over him???? He would not answer a simple question.
I think the interviewer handled himself well.
It kind of bugged me that most of the dialogue did not include to Rob Bell.
I know right. This whole thing was a joke. Wilson dominated the “debate” and clearly his intention was to cause confusion.
Rob struggled.
Isn’t there obvious validation of polygamist families in the Bible while there are NO affirmed homosexual covenants? Why would Rob Bell speak against the one structure which is validated in Scripture while supporting the one obviously condemned?
If he (RB) supports gay marriage, then why not support polygyny?
~ These are [mostly] rhetorical questions.
“This is how the world is.”
It’s demonic, yes
Rob Bell is of the world, and he’s proud of it.
...everyone born of God overcomes the world. 1John
Amen!! 🙏
I loved the courtesy and humility of both interviewees.
In light of those Bell leads astray with his faux confidence, I'll take theological accuracy over manners any day.
The culture doesn't dictate the gospel. "Truth is Truth. Lies are Lies. God don't take no alibis. Right is Right. Wrong is Wrong. So, don't go messing where you don't belong."
that Rob Bell simply refuses to answer ANY question regarding his specific "theology" directly speaks....volumes. it's all we need to know about him.
God bless you Andrew for standing firm to the Word of God.
He's actually falling flat on his face. So sad.
Please, Scripture never speaks of homosexuality, save through the mouths of Moses and Paul.
This is cultural, not scriptural.
The Church and the Bible seemed to have been a bit odd on the question of slavery. A position which you could say has evolved. Many people are quite happy to dispense wisdom from a book until they encounter real life situations and bigger questions involving compassion become much more important . The book even says that . Love demands wisdom not quick answers . and I think this is pretty much where Rob Bell is coming from . Yes he hesitates and even prevaricates from time to time but remember the ones who end up being condemned by Jesus himself are those who demonstrated religious certainty when their their hearts were cold .
Love this comment!
+calum morrison The difference is that the Bible very clearly states that those who practice sexual immorality will not inherit the kingdom of God. The common argument among the pro gay "Christians" is to suggest that since the Bible is not clearly opposed to slavery which culturally we argue is sinful in itself, then we can reject the clear prohibition on sexual immorality.
Using this logic we can systematically ignore every sinful Biblical prohibition. Instead of picking up your cross (death to your former way of life) and following Jesus. We CAN say "Lord,Lord" and not do what He says! Abiding in Christ is simply rationalizing whatever sin we are currently engaged in and dismissing it by saying "surely this isn't as bad as slavery!"
+J.D. Elliott Friend, your post is good. I have just one critique. Please don't lump gays as Christians. Those who call themselves Christians and still live a sinful lifestyle (not denying the flesh) are 'not' saved. In other words, they are False Converts. We (true Believers) are warned over and over in The Bible, DO NOT BE DECEIVED! And clearly, these false converts are deceived. "This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me" (Matthew 15:8)... To be 'truly' saved, one must be Born Again and do The Will of The FATHER. "But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him" (1 John 2:5)... Again: "For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother" (Matthew 12:50)... And again: "Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?" (2 Corinthians 13:5)... Friend, this is not aimed at you, I just get sick of so called Christians who have NO discernment! These people are not 'studying' The Bible as we are told to do (2 Timothy 2:15). And because of that, they will be destroyed (Hosea 4:6)! Woe to the 'false converts'!!! "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven" (Matthew 7:21)... Sorry for the rant.
+calum morrison There is 'no' oddness when it comes to slavery in The Bible. This is what The Bible says: "Knowing that whatsoever good thing any man does, the same shall he receive of the Lord, whether he be bond or free. And, you masters, do the same things unto them, forbearing threatening: knowing that your Master also is in heaven; neither is there respect of persons with him" (Ephesians 6:8,9)... Again: "Masters, give unto your servants that which is just and equal; knowing that you also have a Master in heaven" (Colossians 4:1)... Translation, masters are to 'treat' slaves fairly and not in a threatening manner. As you can see, this is far different from the satanic version that we see in the earth. And we also see from Scriptures that masters will be Judged by GOD for how they treated their servants. Also, The Bible is 'not' just a book! "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness" (2 Timothy 3:16)... Again: "But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God" (Matthew 4:4)... Translation, The Bible is the 'true' Christians instruction for 'pleasing' GOD and it's 'more' vital than food for a persons soul. "So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God" (Romans 10:17)... Again: "But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that comes to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him" (Hebrews 11:6)... So then, by reading and studying The Bible (once you become Born Again and filled with The HOLY GHOST), a 'true' Believer will have discernment and know a FALSE TEACHER (Rob Bell) when we hear them. "Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them" (Matthew 7:20)... Don't be deceived. "Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man sows, that shall he also reap" (Galatians 6:7)... "Examine yourselves, whether you are in the faith; prove your own selves. Know you not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, unless you are counterfeits?" (2 Corinthians 13:5)... Friend, you've been warned.
J.D. Elliott I get it. I just don't like the falsehood and the fake religious people who 'call' themselves Christians. But sadly, these are the times that we are living in. I truly feel for those who are deceived and going around deceiving others. Their end will be disastrous! To those who don't know GOD, we (true Believers) look ignorant and like bigots because we believe and follow what's written in The Bible. Again, it's sad because GOD'S Wrath is about to begin. And we know from Scriptures that it will be 'cruel'. "Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it" (Isaiah 13:9)... Woe to the unsaved!
Rob Bell is incredibly tolerant. I totally identify with how people are driven out of the church. the church might reject people but God hasn't
You’re right. He doesn’t reject anyone. We choose Heaven or Hell based on our rejection of His Word.
Amen John
Rob bell,is a lost soul.as a once Gay man.i died to my sinful nature and became a live to Jesus Christ.
Wow!!!! Just answer the question Rob!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
+Jared Emery yeah man
He is. That's the point! The guy interrogating him wants a black and white answer, it is not a simple case of 'I believe Jesus is wrong, homosexuality is not sinful'. That's what he wanted rob to say, but robs way of thinking is so much more nuanced. He refuses to buy into the simplistic dogma you get so much in modern day Christianity, which leads to such simple thinking as 'you are gay, therefore you will go to hell'. People don't want to engage their minds and their souls to truly understand, they just want to have simple statements from which to judge and understand everything. But unfortunately, if you want that, you're restricting yourself so much. Listen to what rob is saying, rather than being defensive and agitated.
The man shouldn't have kept questioning him with the same question, because it showed he wasn't listening, and it showed he didnt have anything to reply with when rob made an interesting point.
+Natalie Di So what you are saying Natalie is that Rob's way of thinking is a much "higher way" of thinking than Andrew Wilson?
+One Who Knows Him Jesus spoke not a word about homosexuality. Andrew Wilson keeps trying to get Rob Bell to say that Jesus is wrong. But the truth is that Jesus never addressed this. I'm not sure how people who claim to be strict interpreters of scripture don't get that. This becomes such a central issue for conservative Christians, but Jesus says *nothing* about it. Tons about hypocrisy and loving your neighbor (all of them, including immigrants, poor people, women), but not a word about homosexuality.
OWKH/// You mentioned the Word of God as being Jesus. So it is no longer the bible?
So this is of great concern to me...what if Rob Bell is wrong? What if he is encouraging people to continue to engage in what is sinful to God? Will he not be held to account? Isn't it safer to remain in the confines of God's Word and what He has specifically stated? As a believer, I want to do those things that are pleasing to God and if what I am doing is not, I want to be challenged to die to myself to gain real life in Him.
Rob Bell is wrong and yes he will have to give an account for that.
Barb this Rob bell is what the bible calls a False teacher and is with OPRAH spreading a made up gospel . Read in the bible what happens to these false teachers. Its not good. Hes spreading Satan's messages not Gods.
Barb Spencer - we all have to give an account to God. I expect that when I die, I will be called to account and to repent for times when I showed too much grace and approval to my neighbor, and for times when I did not show near enough grace and approval to my neighbor. Rob Bell will have to do that. You will have to do that. We all will have to do that. Given all that I've seen and read and encountered in the church, I'm more dreading the times when I showed too little grace as opposed to too much.
Barb Spencer Yes, Barb, you have rightly spoken! Anybody ever read what Paul had to say in Romans 1? Of course, what did Paul know about anything?
Jim20 Oh brother....
When you have no fear of God and his word, that is a dangerous place to be.
When you are ignorant and presume to know, that is the true danger.
Rob spoke wisely, and virtuously.
I can show Rob specific scripture which definitively claims homosexuality to be an abomination to God. Can he show me scripture which says God is now ok with homosexuality?
Yeah I think the Bible is pretty clear that it is an abomination
What pushes me away is not answering a simple question.
Thank you Rob Bell for your stance, your grace, your intelligence and the way you are pioneering with an issue which has been given far too much negativity and judgment. It isn't God who is being left behind, as the other guy insinuated was your thinking, it's certain aspects of church doctrine. In times past same sex attraction was just not a problem in some church circles. This is actually a fairly recent issue
+Jamie Pickett We can all interpret situations that took place in various ways. Sodom, as I see it, was about all the men in the city wanting to rape the visitors. All of them. ...seriously! Somewhere else the sins of Sodom were mentioned as being pride and something else ...can't quite remember.
Once upon a time the church was all for slavery, backed by a wrong understanding of certain scriptures.
Jamie//// Are you calling God stupid? Maybe He just has stupid followers like you.
@@suelloyd4384 The thing is about religious folks is not want to finish the story about Sodom and Gomorrah. As evil as they were (and as we all fall short), Scripture states that Sodom will be restored to her former estate in the last days. God's not finished with all the evils of this world and neither should we be.
Somehow I felt the urge not to switch off this interview
Andrew Wilson isn't hearing the answers. He is wanting Bell to Just state a Black and White statement. LISTEN to the heart of the issue.
At the heart though, this IS a black and white issue.
Rob Bell isn't even answering Andrew's questions. He is making an appeal to modern culture. Jesus definitely didn't do that. "If anything I tell you conflicts with the culture of the age, reject it. There's nothing wrong with the state of human affairs." is writ NOWHERE in scripture. What he said was, "Die to yourself. Pick up your cross and follow me." He also said "Do not think I have come to abolish the Law... not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished."
I would also like to point out that while I have not read any of his books completely, where I have thumbed through I have not seen a single reference to scripture, which should be the basis for any Christian belief. Why would he? It doesn't support his worldview.
"He is making an appeal to modern culture. Jesus definitely didn't do that." False. Jesus regularly answered questions with questions that were intended to appeal to the culture of the listener's context - consider basically every parable.
Don't you realize that those who do wrong will not inherit the Kingdom of God? Don't fool yourselves. Those who indulge in sexual sin, or who worship idols, or commit adultery, or are male prostitutes, or practice homosexuality,
or are thieves, or greedy people, or drunkards, or are abusive, or cheat people--none of these will inherit the Kingdom of God.
1 Corinthians 9-10
Amen. Someone needs to slap him with that verse.
Praise God some people can actually read!
and judging others like u are brian? hmm....
Susan Malone That is a scripture from the New Covenant...it is not something I made up but rather it is The Word of God. are you going to accuse God of judging too?
“That’s how the world is…” -Rob Bell
“Not so with you…” -Jesus (Matt. 20:26)
Except Jesus didn’t say that about homosexuality.
You’re spot on, but my point was more about the general responses of Rob Bell. His answers were less grounded in the ethics laid out by scripture and more along the lines of: the world has changed and it’s okay to not make these things a big deal. Some good can be seen in them!
My point was that Jesus’ words here should give anyone listening to Bell or anyone who reasons like him keen insight into the way we should expect, at the very least, the ethical principles of the world to differ from those of Christianity.
There are far better defenses of same-sex “marriage” than what Bell presents here, but I find them wanting.
@@sawyerlake10 Rob’s point is that the Bible is unclear about the specific situation in question, so we have to use other means of discernment. To him this means a focus on what constitutes healthy relationships as outlined in scripture. If a gay relationship looks the same and there is no clear word against it, and as far as we can tell it is positive, what is the difference and where is the problem?
If the Pauline passages aren’t clear enough…Marriage is only ever defined as between a man and woman throughout scripture. Jesus acknowledged marriage as such, and the Christian has no basis to go establish marriage on different terms. We try and take what we think is the essence of marriage-love-and make it the basis of any intimate relationship between two or multiple parties.
I used to be pro gay marriage, but I changed my mind. I suppressed the truth in rebellion to what was plainly true. It’s hateful to oppose same-sex “marriage” today, but it is unloving to affirm that which spurns the gift of God.
@@sawyerlake10 Did you suppress the truth or actually allow the truth to come out, and then second guess yourself because it meant the truth might be bigger than you thought and that made you uncomfortable?
As someone who spent the majority of my career in the medical field, there is no such thing as "healthy" sodomy.
There are all types of medical issues that aren't talked about in culture - incontinence, fistulas, infections, etc. The simple fact is your rectum isn't designed to be penetrated. Some may think so because they get a pleasurable feeling. The obvious response to that is, "could you imagine a world where it didn't feel good to poop?"
This isn't just a problem for men, unfortunately. I actually had to fill out a death certificate on a woman who died of sepsis from a colovaginal fistula. If you don't know what that is, you can look it up. Fair warning - it's disgusting.
The Bible does NOT state that homosexuality is a sin, and Jesus Christ never spoke a word against homosexuals. Yet Jesus did speak out against adultery hundreds of times. But this does not mean the Bible is against heterosexuality.
I should point out that the Bible does NOT contain the word ‘homosexuals.’ This is a mistranslation of the Greek word ‘malakoi’ which means a ‘catamite’ or a paedophile in today’s language. The word ‘homosexual’ did not even exist then. Gay men were known as eunuchs at that time, and Jesus Christ says they were born that way from their mother’s womb (Matthew 19:12). This explains why Jesus never spoke out against homosexuality.
Jesus also shows that gay people can and will be part of His Kingdom: “I tell you, in that night there will be two men in one bed: the one will be taken and the other will be left.” (Luke 17:34) KJV
God created all gay and straight people and loves them equally.
Both of them are called to have sexual restraint, but they are allowed to love and be loved.
+John Mark But look at Romans 1:26-27. Paul does not use the word "homosexual" in his denunciation of the homosexual lifestyle. Instead, he refers to it as the exchange of natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. He doesn't need the word "homosexual" to convey his point: that those who practice homosexuality are sinning.
The term "eunuchs" does not refer to homosexuals. It refers to men who have been castrated or are incapable of reproducing due to a birth defect. With that in mind, the reason Jesus does not denounce eunuchs is because their eunuch-ness (for lack of a better word) is not sin. Homosexuality, on the other hand, is a sin and is regarded as such in both the Old Testament and the New Testament.
The word "men" in Luke 17:34 is not necessary to convey the meaning of the passage. Many translations use "people" instead and others get rid of the noun altogether. This passage speaks of the second coming of Christ, NOT about homosexuality.
Thank god! I was looking trough all of these hateful comments and could not find one positive one. Thank for for chiming in. Let's drown the hate with love. Jesus loves us ALL.
+Jordan Helm Jordan nothing but truth came out of your mouth! Amen I looked up what an eunuch was and it definitely was not a sodomite! I was gonna reply to the guy comment but then saw yours instead
Ok this is the reason he destroy : sadom and gamorrah: 😃wake up read the bible : very BIG SIN TO BE TO GO MAN WITH MAN AND LADY WITH LADY...!
John Mark what Bible are you reading?
It's funny to watch this again after 6 years or so. I'm not super familiar with Rob Bell and I'm still not, don't really care. But, this interview was wonderful and so instructive for us today. I actually respect Rob a little bit more here even as I still have my own issues to deal with in regards to where he obviously lands. He was actually clear as to where he stands by the way. But anywho, I absolutely love how he responded to Andrew Wilson.
It's pretty clear that Andrew has a much clearer better articulated approach to this topic. God defines reality. I would ask Rob in this issue to stop eating from the tree of good and evil.
It is destructive to the family structure and society. It is also destructive to themselves and their own physical health.