The moment when Rob attempts to discuss the first century understanding of the English word eternal by referencing the Greek, Hebrew and rabbinic tradition of using the term is telling. It appears that Adrian Warnock isn’t familiar with this basic scholarship or knows that it poses a serious challenge to his “traditional” view. Instead of addressing the issue, he redirects. It seemed to me that both Warnock and the host cared more about labeling Rob’s views than understanding them. Rob is very patient and kind.
Good point here. The Greek and first century Hebrew texts reveal some meaning missed by English translations and we need to honestly look into this without just believing a doctrine because we’re told we have to. Bell is very well-informed and more than a match for this line of questioning.
Rob says the parable of the rich man and Lazarus is more of a hijacking by Jesus of something popular purely for that timeframe, not a teaching and window into the future. I don't think confining Jesus's words to pure first century tradition gets to the root of the issue
““I have told you these things, so that in me you may have peace. In this world you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world.”” - John 16:33
Tim Keller has a brilliant article on hell that cuts to the chase. Here's a portion: Some years ago I remember a man who said that talk about the fires of hell simply didn't scare him, it seemed too far-fetched, even silly. So I read him lines from C.S. Lewis: "Hell begins with a grumbling mood, always complaining, always blaming others . . . but you are still distinct from it. You may even criticize it in yourself and wish you could stop it. But there may come a day when you can no longer. Then there will be no you left to criticize the mood or even to enjoy it, but just the grumble itself, going on forever like a machine. It is not a question of God 'sending us' to hell. In each of us there is something growing, which will BE Hell unless it is nipped in the bud." To my surprise he got very quiet and said, "Now that scares me to death." He almost immediately began to see that hell was a) perfectly fair and just, and b) something that he realized he might be headed for if he didn't change. We run from the presence of God and therefore God actively gives us up to our desire (Romans 1:24, 26.) Hell is therefore a prison in which the doors are first locked from the inside by us and therefore are locked from the outside by God (Luke 16:26.) Every indication is that those doors continue to stay forever barred from the inside. Though every knee and tongue in hell knows that Jesus is Lord (Philippians 2:10-11,) no one can seek or want that Lordship without the Holy Spirit (1 Corinthians 12:3.This is why we can say that no one goes to hell who does not choose both to go and to stay there. What could be more fair than that?
Remarkable answer. It comes in perfect time for me to teach my 15-year-old daughter about the conscious of sin. Thank you for sharing. Can't wait to read the book.
Something more I'd like to add. This comment from you has led me to think that we are, as Christians, brothers, and sisters in Crist, no matter where we are. We share a common faith and we resist the evil of the world which, quite often, comes with sophisticated disguises. So, I just want to thank you again for your post because somehow it gave me strength in a moment of weakness and doubts.
I love Tim Keller (and C.S. Lewis), but I feel this concept of locking the doors from the inside only works in theory (and I say that as someone who used to preach this exact message). I can imagine people rebelling / rejecting God AT FIRST. I can see them locking those doors from the inside for a few months, a few years-MAYBE even a few decades… But ETERNITY? Is it feasible to believe that 100% of the people that wind up in hell will continue to reject God and NOT seek repentance? A 24-year-old born in the wrong country? A 40-year-old who's spent their entire life being manipulated, hurt, betrayed by “church” folk? A 50-year-old who tried to stay faithful, but lost everything (much like Job), but never had their moment where God speaks from a whirlwind? OR as Rob Bell aptly questions… would God continue to punish a 17-year-old for the choices they made in those short 17 years of life… for ETERNITY? Can a developing mind truly carry enough HUBRIS to last FOREVER? This great God who created the universe, time, space, and conquered death… Can't figure a way to soften the heart of a 17-year-old? How can an “omnipotent” God be so impotent?
Wow I must say..I watched this is 2013, and felt very much on the ‘side’ of the hosts. But now my 30 year old self is watching in some disbelief at the hostility and narrow mindedness of these questions. Rob displayed such grace, humility and courage. I may not agree with all his views but you can’t doubt that ‘God is Love’
Me in 2011: Rob Bell is straying from orthodoxy and is on the verge of dangerous ground... Me in 2020: Rob Bell hadn’t quite gotten free of toxic religion yet, but he is on the verge of holy ground...
If you guest refuses to present clear answers about his opinion, kick him out, there is no need to hear endless question without a few attempts of answers
Bryce Clemmer sure, but there is generally an element of truth in a joke. Additionally, the way a person jokes can reveal something about who they are-their character. I was just making an observation. I didn’t particularly care for Mr. Bell’s brand of joking. I found him snide and condescending for the most part. Perhaps he is arrogant and believes he is always the smartest guy in the room, or perhaps he is insecure and desperate to cover over his insecurities. I don’t know. Maybe it’s a bit of both or maybe it’s neither and I am way off. Either way, I found him to be obnoxious.
@Barkoot Geleta Nor Per-se, I believe in what the Bible says about predestined, but I don't believe people have been predestined to go to a lost eternity.
For those that find Rob Bell’s perspective a breath of fresh air I would recommend from a more Eastern Orthodox perspective Bradley Jersak’s “Her Gates Shall never be Shut” and a brilliant and compelling book written by David Bentley Hart entitled “that all shall be saved; heaven, hell and universal salvation”.
I have had zero interest in the Bible after 10 years out of Christian Ministry. I started reading Love Wins and read the Bible for the first time recently with genuine interest and excitement.
I love Rob Bell’s fresh prospective of God, and I also understand that he too is still searching and may not have everything figured out, as no one does and as no one will ever have everything figured out in regard to so many mysteries when it comes to God. As a former church attendee, let me tell you what this whole thing came down for me: yes, God is both a loving entity and simultaneously angry with sin. The church/pastors have focused too much ( at least the ones I’ve gone to) on the anger of God towards sin and not enough on the love of God towards humanity. Rob Bell is searching the loving aspects of God, he puts focus on that since, God knows we have enough- unhealthy so- focuse on the wrath and anger of God. And that’s what keeps me away from the church- the constant guilt lashing, anger preaching, emotional manipulation circling around how horrible we are and how much we have to constantly repent. The hosts are trying to be nice, versus Rob is being nice.
Rob Bell is apparently saying that in some cases the Koine Greek of the New Testament was mistranslated into English such that the original Greek does not mean the same thing as the English translation. He's apparently also claiming that in some cases the translation is accurate, but is misunderstood. For example, some exegetes claim that when Jesus said that the condemned will be cast into everlasting fire, he wasn't saying that the condemned will never be removed from the fire. He was merely saying the fire itself never goes out.
I’m so glad I came back to this confrontation. Originally I agreed with Justin and Adrian. But after years of diving into these types of debates and my own study - I’m a little shocked at how much Justin and Adrian were “telling” Rob what his fundamental beliefs were. I think they would have gotten much farther by first asking what Rob believes and entering into his questions with more thought on the meanings of things like “eternal,” “punishment,” or etc.
Totally disagree with you. Justin and Adrian read Bell's words in his book back to him - then recited what the Bible says - and then Bell either said nothing or minimized his heresy. Bell was clearly evasive (ie, did not defend) his heretical statements in his book.
I read about 1/2 of the book as part of a comprehensive study on "hell" and although I am not a Universalist (I doubt that Rob is one) the book absolutely did two GODLY things in me. It refreshingly broke some paradigm's I had and got me to start thinking more seriously and creatively about things I had been taught in the past. And MOST IMPORTANTLY and SURPRISINGLY (I thought I would not like the book) it very noticeably and significantly produced the Fruit of the Spirit in me! I read the top books on all the positions on "hell" and this one produced the Fruit of the Spirit in me! What that said to me is that there is a lot of truth in the book! Did I become a Universalist? No! But it opened my my to a much broader view of salvation. This subject has been given to us in scripture in a way that the precise nature of "hell" is simply not clear. Some aspects of it are, but NOT as much as some will adamantly claim. I'm glad the topic is being discussed and considered prayerfully by people, and I love that Rob does not let them put him in a box. Rob ask great questions! I believe it extremely important to prayerfully grapple with the scriptures and truth in our lives and to be honest about what we do not know for sure. Jesus rose, that if for sure. What the "second death" in Revelation precisely is, or what Jesus meant by "Perish" is open to debate all day long!
@@joshhigdon4951 yes John describes The second. We need to learn how to read these passages symbolically Josh. These things are not literal. Is Jesus literally a little baby lamb standing at the center of a throne? Well of course not. Revelation is symbolic in his pointing to different things. The second death is the death of death itself, and the death of separation between man and God. The lake of fire represents God’s cosmic plan to burn away everything from the human soul that is not like him. This will take different ages and length of time to go through for some versus others. The true biblical meanings behind the English words eternal and everlasting prove this. God operates in ages and eons of time. Not sure how much you know about Greek and its nuances in the New Testament Some people will resist and continue to suffer in their personal hell, other people will Soften sooner than later, but at the end of revelation John sees people coming out of the lake of fire and into the new Jerusalem, “whose gates will never be shut day or night”. Josh answer this question - why would the gates never be shut? In a secluded, tribal, elitist religious community like Calvinism is, the gate to heaven would always be closed in the final estimation of things, because all the elect are in. Because it is an isolated exclusive community. But this gate of the new Jerusalem always WILL BE open, and the invitation to “come!” will always go forward! Read it yourself. Why is the invitation to come into the new Jerusalem continuing to go out even after death???? Because souls can still be saved after death! If we think about that brother that’s simple logic. Now our job is to go ask ask Holy spirit for revelation as wevread Revelation ha ha. It has to be read symbolically… Holy Spirit has to point out what he’s really talking about beneath the literal surface reading. This is how the apostle Paul learned to read scripture, it’s why he realized that the Old Testament was the “ministry of death” WHEN READ LITERALLY. It’s symbolic my man. The letter kills but the spirit gives life Paul said. This means that reading Bible passages literally in certain places brings death to our spirits because they are not meant to be read that way. On their surface reading it appears like God is commanding to kill and smite and destroy. These things are symbols to my friend of deeper realities. God is killing and destroying things inside of us and all humanity that keep us back and keep us from loving correctly. This is what the lake of fire is. It is the returning of us to our true nature, our God given image and identity inside. This is what the lake of fire does and purifies people back to the state and bring them to a place of repentance so they can see their need for God and for other people. We only know what God is like by looking at Jesus. If Jesus does not commit violence and take life and permit people being stoned or hurt or fire call down from heaven on them, this means Jesus does not believe in retaliation and violence and destroying people. And God the father is exactly like Jesus is. When you have seen Jesus you have seen the father! And no Jesus will never change his actions and what he does in the future. Jesus Christ is the same yesterday today and forever! Now that scripture makes sense doesn’t it? So much beauty and truth is lost when we look at things only literally. The greatest most powerful things in the world are taught through symbols and figures. Feel free to private message me. I was a former Calvinist and God had mercy on me and showed me the light. If we believe God is going to save us Josh, while there’s others he will NOT pick, we have fallen prey to what’s called confirmation bias and cognitive dissonance. Also a whole lot of pride and arrogance. And not knowing how to read Jesus and Paul correctly of course. Paul was the biggest Universalist that has ever lived. His language in his epistles is full of the theme of all things being reconciled back to God through Christ. All things whether on earth or under the earth my brother will be reconciled back to God through Christ! All things, all things. God is much much bigger than Calvinism has taught. Calvinism’s God is a weak and small and petty and childish and schizophrenic and terrible God. The god of Calvinism is no God at all, it is a figment of John Calvin‘s imagination. God bless you bro, sorry this was so long, and feel free to private message me. Big blessings man
@@thejjshow2488 while I appreciate the reply, thats way to much to even try to respond to. But in saying that, I think you're either misunderstanding what my very short comment was, or you're just adding to what I said with no basis for doing so. Just little background...I am a reformed baptist who believes strictly Scripture alone as being the final authority. That doesn't insinuate, at all, that I dont understand basic hermeneutics of the passages. To assume that from that very short comment I wrote is disingenuous at best.
I agree Rob asked great questions, and I don’t believe he was being evasive in any way. I also agree with the substance of your post and especially your conclusions. I’m curious - did you get to read the second half of the book, and would you recommend it?
@@thejjshow2488 no, you have to use exegesis. Its not about symbolism or any other excuse you want to use. Sure, there is symbolism, there is literalism, apocalyptic language, etc, but it doesn't make it untrue. Rob is a universalist, not unlike many neo-evangelists and g@y affirming christianity. Its all lies. They create a god in their own image. They are the creatures saying to the Creator "why have you made me this way". There is a hell and its not a figure of speech. While it may not be literal fire, the symbolism points to it being horrible and fire isn't a fun thought to ponder. However, hell is Gods wrath being poured out on unrepentant sinners. Thats what hell is. They could be in heaven for all we know, but they will ve suffering Gods wrath, which is hell. The only other person that knows what Gods full wrath is is the person of Christ, who suffered Gods wrath for the atonement, imputation, amd justification for "all the Father draws". Christ death did not atone for every person who ever lived.
"Repent for the Kingdom of heaven is at hand" What do you think this means if it is not a warning. "The ax is already at the root of the tree, if you do not produce good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire." It does not say you will be taken out of the fire if you repent later.
Yes there are some clear verses that seem to make your point, but there and others that might seem to contradict it. This is no clear issue as to the precise nature of hell. All verses from Genesis to Revelation have to be considered as it is a long unfolding narrative in the Bible. "Four Views on Hell Paperback - January 6, 1997" and the second edition are a great start to see the broader narrative.
@@MarkMetternichPhotographyLLC There are no verses tjat contradict it. Refer to them if you can? Hell is a state more than a place. You are not sent there, you end up there. It is your own attitude. It is not a punishment it is a consequence.
Meta Space Crowned By Time john is talking specifically to the jews about christ being revealed ... its specific to the jews with reference to the tree producing fruit ref as in prophecy in isaiah ... not meant for us... christ revealed himself to the jews first then his death n rez included gentiles... anything else from that scripture is proof texting... repent literally means change your mind!
Meta Space Crowned By Time I gave you a pretty good primer book that lays out the different perspectives on “hell”’s more precise nature. I studied the subject very extensively from all the main perspectives and from the best advocates of those positions and YES, there is a Gehenna (valley of Ben Hinnom) Sheol, Hades, Tartarus, Abaddon... described in hundreds of verses in the Bible, each having a variety of implications and unfolding meanings related to the nature of the finally impenitent wicked’s destination. Yes there are consequences to hating or avoiding Gods Love, and relationship. But it’s precise nature is not clear. Some aspects of it seem so, but others not, when one dives deep into the subject comprehensively. I’m not a Universalist and I don’t think Rob is (but not entirely sure) and part of my intensive, over a year study had Robs book come up as a position to read. A very theologically trained friend who was not a Universalist recommended it to me. I did not want to read it due to not being interested in something that might be even remotely Universalist, but I read it (most of it) and found it VERY interesting (particularly the great questions!) and it created a significant spike of Love, compassion, kindness, goodness... The Fruit of the Spirit... in my life, notably. After giving it a fair shake, I believe the book has a lot of truth in it, and it is recommended if a person wants to look at all the issues and angles related to the important topic. But no, it did not make me change what I see as the strongest case. One study showed me is that (a lot like eschatology!) people that think the issue is open and shut clear, simply are not looking unbiased at all the Bible says on the matter. Nor carefully considering the genre’s of literature and the full view of the entire narrative. If you have not given the subject a thorough investigation from all perspectives, I highly recommend it.
Jake Vezeau Pretty close here. Metanoia is two words that literally mean “mind change” and “afterward”. Or, to “think differently - afterward.” It also implies heart change with the different thinking/afterward. Original Biblical thinking does not separate a mind change from a heat change. They are integrally connected. There are also many types of “metanoia.” They are not all weeping in sackcloth and ashes like you see more in the Old Testament (because Messiah had yet to come and do His redeeming work). After praying to God one could be touched by God and not help but to “think differently afterward” about how awesome God is, and of course that would result in a natural transformation of ones heart and create joy”! Also about the fruit... that is not entirely true. In the Bible the Tree/Bush/Vine/Branch/Fruit is a extremely long developing narrative that starts in Genesis 1 and is echoed through all the letters even to the end of Revelation. In ancient biblical thinking/narrative tree, vine, fruit, branch are all forms of Tree. Aside from God and Humans it is a motif or design pattern used more than any other living thing in all of scripture. The vine, tree, fruit of the vine and so forth represent God Himself Who is Eternal Life and being plugged into Him. The general clear idea is that if someone genuinely comes to Christ/God and genuinely believes into Gods grace gift of Himself/eternal life/forgiveness/Love... God comes into us, we come into him and that is transformative. No way around that. God in-dwells the believer (belief changes heart) and there is no way out of the fact that good fruit, transformation, thinking differently afterward will naturally occur and grow in us. In other words, if years are going by and the fruit of the spirit is not growing in our lives, we might want to double check the authenticity of our faith in Jesus. So maybe I am misunderstanding you, but just belief does not get us in. It is a genuine belief that has transformation built in.
The most conservative and traditional belief of scripture is to love God, to love others, and even to love yourself. Beyond that, it's just commentary.
@@trentbridenpiano Do you mean these guys are trying to trick Rob as did those with Jesus? Rob does well in a monologue, but as soon as someone challenges his position everything comes tumbling down. No, Jesus didn't answer questions like this.
Wow! This was amazing discourse. I was very grateful the disagreements were handled with mutual respect. Sometimes you could see it was hard to do. :) Its critically important to respectfully talk about our understanding of the Bible without eating each other alive. You 3 gave me a lot to think about. Many thanks, gentlemen. I hope I view other "Premier Christian Radio Videos" like this in the future. God bless you all!
It seems like Rob makes controversial statements in his books and videos, but when challenged on them he is vague and hesitant. I think that says a lot about the solidity of his claims.
The belief that everyone is going to Heaven. It is one of the most damaging ideas in modern times because it removes the necessary sense of urgency in earnestly seeking our salvation
Thats the thing that everyone is seeming to miss though. Bell never sought out to make any objective claims, he only says that our traditional view of hell may not be the certain truth, and then presents other alternative theory's.
@@GameCrawler but he refuses to say which alternative theory he believes is correct or even what one he thinks is more likely to be so. Where is the scholarship in saying "this view might not be right, there are these other views..."? We know the alternative theologies/thoughts on Hell already. They aren't new. He revels in creating this ambiguity, he can't hide his grin when ppl are frustrated by his evasion when he is asked his personal view on the matter. If he is responsible for the spiritual "health" of his flock he should be wary of teaching false doctrine. Ppls souls could be in jeopardy. Either he doesn't care, or he does care, but doesn't think anyone's souls are actually in danger. If the latter is true, (and I trust it is,) then why not just say it?
I like how Rob goes into the context and meanings of words that we translate as "forever". Adrian was frustrating me when he was saying, "literal translation of scripture". I thought that analyzing the etymology, utility, and context of words IS literal translation. Rob frustrated me by continuously answering questions with questions.
I liked how Mr. Bell admitted, he is still learning. May that be a lesson to us all, to keep asking questions. Such humility! ... To dialogue, not merely to put others on trial. Of course, a real debate would have a moderator, and the moderator would be asking questions of both sides. Therefore, I felt Mr. Bell was free, here, to make his own rules.
Is it wrong that Rob would have the other person think for themselves and give honest consideration? What means more to you, what one other person insists, or what your honest thoughts think? Therefor, Rob seeks to offer the most meaningful discussion. It's easy enough to not think about, and just assume and insist Rob is wrong; but to think about it for ourselves prevents simple assumption and stokes self-honesty.
@@sammiezook I don't get where you are coming from. The questions let one consider God and Scripture, which is a better more enlightening means of discussion than personal claims. I can't relate to the accusation that Rob was shifty, I see zero merit to that.
Rob is pretty well known for being a kind of sage, who pitches the question back, often rephrasing it to challenge the inquirer to consider it more deeply. He has a talent for forcing his students to more deeply consider their questions, often empowering them to derive their own answers, or even open their eyes to their preconceptions and biases inherent in the question. He has a gift, but it wasn't useful in this discussion.
@@yourfavoritesteve How was it not useful? Seems he was able to put listeners in place to consider possibilities which they have been trained to never consider lest they be deemed heretics, and kept the focus on God and Scripture. Justin and Adrian were trying to focus on Rob and his doctrine, but Rob kept it about Scripture and God. The important question is what may be true; it's not so important what Rob's own doctrinal stance is. Looks like most viewers want Rob to simply say something they can accuse as heresy, but would that have been more helpful to anyone? Is there something I am missing here? What would have been more useful to the discussion? (I know the technical aspects that fully clarify the matter, and if you ask I'll gladly tell, but I don't think Rob had that full technical understanding so he couldn't share it. I would love to discuss it with Rob on a livestream, could help people see exactly what Scripture actually teaches, which is VERY Good News indeed)
From what I can tell, Rob Bell is challenging people to think critically of their relationship with God. I think for the most part, the people who are trying to defame him aren’t wanting to do that. If you have a relationship with God, then we shouldn’t fear the thought of “Is my relationship with God genuine?”
@@MaxMax-ib6xg thanks for asking. Yes I still am doing that. It started way back when I married my wife 33 years ago. I was vehemently against anyone who lived a gay lifestyle. Then I met my wife who lived a lesbian lifestyle for 7 years before that. My paradigms started to blow up back then. It’s been quite a journey with God since then.
Rob Bell has a great debate style, he's not forcing anyone to believe what he believes he's just asking questions based on the bible verses themselves.
The problem among us Christians is that we categorise each other depending on not just the church we belong to but also political views. There are far too many “christianists” who believe in all sorts of “christianism” instead of just being humble believers in and followers of Jesus Christ.
That just about everyone is going to Heaven. It is one of the most damaging ideas in modern times because it removes the necessary sense of urgency in earnestly seeking our salvation - Watered down Christianity does not speak much about Hell. It does not warn souls of the danger they face - -"If men only knew what awaits them in eternity, they would do everything in their power to amend their lives" - "Among adults there are few saved because of sins of the flesh.... With the exception of those who die in childhood, most men will be damned"
I like your point! I think Jesus gets trampled in our polarization. Have you thought, perhaps Jesus is a moderate? I think, for example, because of the nature of the Ten Commandments' being ten, not nine or eleven (liberal or conservative), likely Jesus was a moderate. His Beatitudes, to me, are analogous to the Ten.
You can have whatever view you want, friend, but if it doesn't comport with the scriptures, then it is worthless and wrong. People don't like things that are black and white but God is very clear when he speaks and there is no equivocation in His truth.
Rob repeatedly reflects the questions, saying, "Well, do you?". It doesn't matter what I think, Rob, you're the one who wrote a book about this and you're the one who needs to answer the questions clearly.
The host quoted his rhetorical questions within the book… it’s to ponder on the answer and to have discussions about them. He doesn’t have the answer hence why he asks “Well, do you?” because neither do they.
@@rutakassa5631 The whole point of a rhetorical question is that the answer is obvious- not that there isn't one. Even though he doesn't give an answer, he certainly has a bias and a worldview shaping his thoughts.
@@genessapanainte2609 Hmm I disagree. The whole point of a rhetorical question is to make a point… the obvious answer is that there isn’t one, hence why he continues to respond with “Well, do you?” because the host and co-guest don’t know either.
I don't agree with Rob Bell in a lot of things but when he was speaking about the cross and the payment of sin and we could not do or fulfill what Christ did, your guest didn't even respond to that truth, but went around to find something else Rob was doing or saying.
True, also the host tends to step in when a good dialogue is about start. The guest could have asked "but where is that in your book?" and pressed him. Guess he's not perfect either.
this was a very sloppy done interview... not usually the case ...but both interviewers were cutting each other off in eagerness to ask their questions... and when rob fires back finally with substance the moderator wants to move on from the greek and first century jewish context.... rob clearly at the beginning of this interview is playing defensive chess here, all the while scoping for information from the two to understand the den he has entered. it was an ok interview but seemed a bit scattered in nature and the interviewers were spending to much time trying to "nail jello to the wall" instead of exploring the premises in a deeper manner.
Rob did not have much substance. He made himself to sound biblically illiterate on the subject. He said nothing to convince anyone of what he believes. "It was an ok interview" but Rob just didn't have the wherewithall to defend his position.
@dennis- so i assume you already know that the chances of anyone changing anyones mind (when said person already has a conclusion on the matter (you?) is next to impossible unless you have a personal connection and long standing discourse with that person... and even then you must have an open mind... i agree with you about the substance part but at the same time, the interviewers had a big part in that... they easily could have discussed chapter xyz of the book and dive into the premise of the book rather than stay high level trying to get him to admit he’s universalist.... for example “Rob chapter six of your book describes the reconciliation of all things, many people will read passages such as sheep/goats or i am the way the truth etc... and then read your chapter and be confused, how do you approach that with your audience?” ... much better question than leading with rob are you a universalist... the former rob reply’s and then the guest replys to rob and the interview moves on and explores the premise of the book.... been doing this a long time and justin knows this wasn’t his best stuff... he’s interviewed rob before and went fine structure wise... i know what rob was doing but i also know what justin failed to do... which way you line up on the issue isnt really relevant to my point... rob wasn’t offering much and when he started to do so justin moved away from the substance... he doesn’t usually do that .
Dennis Leveridge rob is getting double teamed the whole time what do you expect? imagine defending your stance when two people with opposing views are feeding off each other’s energy and also controlling the ebb and flow of the conversation
I’m Jewish and I was never threatened with Hell or enticed by Heaven. An Evangelical Christian asked me if I was going to. Heaven or Hell. I didn’t know if Jews believed Hell existed.
Rob Bell seems to be a subjectivist about everything. Disagree with him and he'll ask "But do you know that?" implying that you're arrogant and wrong(objectively?) to do so. Ask him if he thinks everyone will be saved and he'll ask "But don't you want that?" implying that you don't and are therefore coldhearted and that wanting it to be true somehow makes it so. It must be a miserable existence to think the only knowable truth is that those who don't accommodate your feelings are wrong and mean.
As clear as some think, or wish the subject of "hell" is... there is a ton that is debatable and is NOT clear at all! Rob throws out GREAT and legitimate questions! Also, to say he is subjective about everything is not legitimate. He totally affirms a ton of fundamental evangelic orthodoxy. The fact is that there are clear things and not clear things in the Bible. The subject discussed here is a very non clear one. It is also not a salvic question. If a person is unsure about the precise nature of hell, or does not get it right, does NOT disqualify them from eternal God's love! I know of no one who is 100% clear or certain on its precise nature.
@@tchristian04 Of course He was. But what God knows, compared to humans is not the question at hand. What he has and has not revealed about its precise nature is what is being considered.
Around 31:00 when Adrian mentioned no known passages of repentance after death, I would ask why does scripture mention Jesus preaching to the dead? Seems the answer Adrian keeps asking about the people that think "ah, I can do whatever I want, nothing bad will happen in the end" is answered in 1 Peter 4:1-6 "Therefore, since Christ suffered in his body, arm yourselves also with the same attitude, because whoever suffers in the body is done with sin. As a result, they do not live the rest of their earthly lives for evil human desires, but rather for the will of God. For you have spent enough time in the past doing what pagans choose to do -living in debauchery, lust, drunkenness', orgies and detestable idolatry. They are surprised that you do not join them in their reckless, wild living, and they heap abuse on you. But they will have to give account to him who is ready to judge the living and the dead. For this is the reason the gospel was preached even to those who are now dead, so that they might be judged according to human standards (bodily death) in regard to the body (flesh, sin, evil nature) but live according to God in regard to the spirit." You cannot live in the spirit until the flesh has died, which is the Judgement of God, Christ hanging on the tree, to crucify the flesh, and this good news preached to the dead brings spiritual life according to Peter. It seems that the one who is ready to judge the living and the dead judges the living for reward of faithfulness, and the judgement on the wicked is hearing the gospel and receiving spiritual life. Having to "give an account" is like telling your whole life story, the real story. ..all your decisions and the motives behind them. When most hit a rock bottom in their lives, they finally confess and feel the weight of their actions being brought to light. What Christ always offers is forgiveness which I feel like Rob made a pretty clear point with his answers concerning punishment for the dude cheating and in debt. That same forgiveness is offered through the same Christ who preaches to the dead. What good news could God in Christ possibly bring to those held in the prison of Death? Hosea 13:14-14:4 I will ransom them from the power of Sheol (the grave, hell); I will redeem them from Death. Where, O, death, are your plagues? O grave, is your destruction? "I will have no compassion, even though he thrives among his brothers. An east wind from the LORD will come, blowing from the desert; his spring will fall and his well dry up. His storehouse will be plundered of all its treasures. The people of Samaria must bear their guilt, because they have rebelled against their God. They will fall by the sword; their little ones dashed to the ground, their pregnant women ripped open." Return, Israel, to the LORD your God. Your sins have been your downfall! Take the words with you and return to the LORD. Say to him: "forgive all our sins and graciously receive us, so that we may offer your our praises. Assyria cannot save us; we will not mount warhorses. We will never say again 'Our Gods' to what our own hands have made, for in your the fatherless find compassion. "I will heal their waywardness and love them freely, for my anger has turned away from them.
Why on Earth doesn't Rob just cite a passage from Scripture that ties it all together, perhaps this one: For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. Romans 14:11 I'd say this sums it up, no?
Sure it sums it up as long as you ignore ALL of the rest of scripture, which illustrates the meaning of that verse..... which is exactly the opposite of what Bell and his blind worshippers believe it means.
38:29 this is the concept I could never accept as a Christian. That a loving god would send people to Hell for eternity. Once I let myself question that doctrine, I started questioning all of it. And now I'm free from all of it.
God doesn't send people to hell. We choose it and he accepts our choice. Why does he allow it? Because what he desires is love. We can only love with free will. Without free will, we couldn't choose to love. With that same free will, we choose to either accept salvation that is freely given, or reject it. When we reject it, we are choosing separation from God. Separation from God is hell. Our choice has eternal consequence. God has offered you a free gift. You don't have to earn it. You just need to open it and accept it. He doesn't send you to hell, but he accepts the decision that you have made with the free will that he has given you.
@@tonygutermuth9347 yeah, I know the "free will" excuse. I don't buy it. It's a way to make your monster God seem okay. Anyone who uses the "free will" justification hasn't really thought it through.
@@MikeLeonard OK, so "think it through" then. I presented somewhat of a systematic "if this, then that" theology if you will. Saying that I haven't thought it through while not presenting any logic for your position kinda looks like you haven't actually thought it through. The bottom line is that you reject God because you don't like the idea of justice. You would rather have a God that looks the other way while you make yourself God, or at least while you ignore the gifts that he has given you. A permissive God that accepts sin and looks the other way wouldn't be righteous. So, instead, God is holy and just. He realizes that sin must have consequences or he isn't a good father. But instead of hitting you with both barrels and damning you to eternity without him, he gives you a way out through his son. All you have to do is accept, and you are in his grace. You can't accept god because you attribute to him what you bring upon yourself.
@@tonygutermuth9347 Is there free will in Heaven? But no sin. So if God can create a state where there is free will but no sin, why bother making the one with sin? Also, how fucked up is that a "maximally powerful" being is willing to send billions to eternal torment just have some people "choose" to love him? The "free will make the sin" only works when you're in it and have to believe it. Once on you're on the outside, you can see how messed up it is. Have fun with that.
Well, Jesus taught about hell. Read about Lazurus and the rich man. Jesus spoke of hell and eternal punishment more than about heaven. God is love, but God is also JUST. His righteousness and holiness cannot allow evil in heaven and hell was initially only there for the devil and his rebellious angels. Because you do not believe in hell, the devil has already deceived you.
So if "forever" in hell is not really forever, then what about forever in heaven? Do we also need to fear that we may not be in heaven forever? Could we "fall out" of heaven at some point just like the angels did? If you can change your mind in hell, is it not possible to change your mind in heaven? If it is possible to save in hell, is it possible to be lost in heaven? Seams to me as soon as you question the meaning of "forever", you have to grant this possibility!
Forever can mean a space of time and by extension perpetuity so some could argue Heaven is literal forever he’ll is nonliteral but I think you make a good point. I would fear God while in Heaven because perfect angels lost that fear and rebelled so how is rebellion when perfect impossible going forward. Free will and knowledge of good and evil is still there
Rob is so good. This discussion/debate is needed as well. The living Bible is meant to be discussed and not swallowed whole. These convos are exactly how the message was spread from the jump. Both men get a tip o’ the cap. I lean towards Rob’s view rather than the potentially weaponizing view of Adrian.
It’s so tiring when people like Rob Bell play silly word games and just answer questions with questions. It’s clear there is a separation. What does Paul say? If you do x y and z you WILL NOT inherit the kingdom of God. Period. There’s no get out clause after this age is over.
Bell has always been this frustrating, he makes truth claims in print then won't stick to them when pressed. we can know for certain. jesus preached hell more than anyone in the Bible
“Jesus preached hell more than anyone else in the Bible.” And? That’s not news to advocates for Christ-mediated universalism. Read Talbott’s work (eg second edition of “Inescapable Love if God” and his chapters in the 2003 volume “Universal Salvation? The Current Debate” edited by Parry and Partridge), David Bentley Hart, Robin Parry’s book “The Evangelical Universalist” (under pseudonyms Gregory MacDonald), etc
@@TheProdigalMeowMeowMeowReturns The belief that everyone is going to Heaven. It is one of the most damaging ideas in modern times because it removes the necessary sense of urgency in earnestly seeking our salvation - Watered down Christianity does not speak much about Hell. It does not warn souls of the danger they face -"If men only know what awaits them in eternity, they would do everything in their power to amend their lives" - "Among adults there are few saved because of sins of the flesh.... With the exception of those who die in childhood, most men will be damned"
Jotun, I’ve been studying this debate since 2003. This promise you that the case is much stronger than you or Bell could articulate. Hell, I’ll send you 100 dollars if you can summarize half of Reitan’a arguments, or Robin Parry’s, or Talbott’s
meow meow meow Atheists study for years to still conclude there is no God. Because they start with a false worldview. Scholarly research does not guarantee one to be right. We can spend years reinterpreting bible verses, when a child can read the words of scripture declaring hell as a reality and know the truth.
They should ask the fallen angles if he’ll is forever, the demons asked Jesus “have you come to torment us before our time”, remember the demons asked Jesus to inhabit the pigs, rather to be cast into the abyss. These men know not , the terror of the lord!
"A clear reading of scripture?" Understanding Christians like Rob scare the hell into bibliolotars. To say their is one clear reading is a misunderstanding of what a text is. The Bible tells you what God wants you to understand ever time you read it informed ny the Holy Spirit. Believing in the Bible is not Christianity, knowing God's son Christ Jesus crucified is.
It appears that the two British interviewers have been blue pilled, and are so close minded that they cannot see the forest through the trees. Thank God for people like Rob Bell who are waking up and making a statement of truth. We are all in different places a different times, some people can’t or will not hear truth. I should know I used to be one of them, that is to say someone to not hear something new that is truth. Look what they did to Jesus, he was changing the whole program and you saw what they wanted to do with him. 57:09
What is unclear about Rob's response is that he doesn't clear about the type of Hell he espouses - an eternal punishment Hell or as purgatorial, refining, purifying and 2nd chance Hell?
Wow I must say..I watched this is 2013, and felt very much on the ‘side’ of the hosts. But now my 30 year old self is watching in some disbelief at the hostility and narrow mindedness of these questions. To think that people actually think that God will eternally punish a finite being for an infantile amount if time, is just sad. Rob displayed such grace, humility and courage. I may not agree with all his views but you can’t doubt that ‘God is Love’ - 1 John
I don't understand when the bible says thrown into the lake of fire for eternity??? People think they can subtract or add to the bible JUST to make themselves feel good. Revelation even warns of this. These type of people Jesus stated they were luke warm and he will spit them out. Hell is real and Jesus even said that MOST PEOPLE will go to Hell especially when he stated it's easier for a Camel to go through an eye of the needle than for a Rich man to get to Heaven. God Bless
So you interpret lukewarm as someone who is able to see some time durations as nonliteral? Lukewarm means sinful and carnal sir. Jonah was in the belly of the whale forever according to the Bible and yet got out in three days. By your logic, anybody who believes he did not stay in the whale forever literally is lukewarm and heading for hell
@@ajaxslamgoody9736 revelation is a spiritual book…we can not pick and choose what is literal and what is a spiritual metaphor…if the lake of fire is literal then so is everything else mentioned in that book, including the dragon. In the very first chapter of revelation it says these things are signified meaning they are symbols…If God condemned the act of burning people alive to Moloch and Baal…the. he most certainly condemns the teaching of eternal conscious torment.
@Marianne Havisham Yea I know, neither is the Trinity. It's a doctrine that is held by the Catholic Church. I don't really understand what your response is about. My initial post is about what Bell's view of Purgatory would be because the way he talks about Hell seems to fit more of the Catholic view of Purgatory then the typically understanding of what the Bible saids about Hell.
@Marianne Havisham So a few thoughts to your last few responses: So I have been part of a number of denominations myself, the Catholic Church (8 Years), a Non-Denominational Church (6 Years), and most recently the Wesleyan Church (6 Years). So I have done myself a fair amount of work trying to understand the differences between the Catholics and the Protestants. The Trinity is a universal Christian belief across denominations, but it is a doctrine in the sense that it is our Theological attempt to make sense of how God interacts with himself. There is no where in the Bible itself that directly states anything about a trinity, but it is our universal understanding of the nature of God. Likewise, while the belief in Purgatory is unique to the Catholic Church it is similar to other doctrines. It is not directly stated in the Bible but it's the Catholic Church's attempt at trying to understand what the Bible has to say about life after death, salvation, and the spiritual realm. Now the Biblical defense for Trinity Theology is really easy to do which is why it became a universal belief, the Biblical defense for Purgatory is much harder which is why only some Christians believe in it.
@@timsmith9503 Do you personally believe the Bible supports there being a purgatory? If so, can you share some scriptures with me you believe point to this?
Regardless of who's right or wrong, I'm pretty sure in a debate the moderator/host isn't supposed to sit on one side and take turns going after the other side. This is so set up with attempted gotchas. I'm only a few minutes in and even though I'm interested in the subject I really don't want to endure any more! Rob very gracious despite the grinning vitriol sitting side-by-side at the other end of the studio.
Interesting conversation, so why would a God of love, grace, and mercy create a place called Hell only to send us to it for not being perfect. I believe he'll was made up by people who need a sin nature. I also believe Jesus wasn't talking about a literal hell but Gehanna and what happened about 70AD. And finally I believe we create our own hell on earth by the way we live. Just saying. David
I wish that the host allowed more dialogue between the two men. It seemed clear to me when the other guy pushed Rob against the wall and it was getting "hot" in a good way so we could finally hear clear "yes/"no" from Rob, but then the host UNECESARILY stopped this a few times, which made me upset. Now we're left wondering about certain things do Rob believe and teach them or not. Wasted opportunity. :(
Everyone seems to think that Bell is making objective claims about universalism, but that's not the case. Bell never sought out to make any objective claims in the first place, he only says that our traditional view of hell may not be the certain truth, and then presents other alternative theory's. Just because he believes that universalism or annihilationism could be the truth, doesn't mean he believes that it IS the truth. He is clearly agnostic on the concept of hell, and while he makes it evident that he has a preference for universalism being true, that doesn't make him a universalist. He is only asking open ended questions.
Jesus didn't deny the faith. Rob has. Rob is not a Christian. I pray he turns from sin and puts his trust in Christ. He has strayed even farther today than he did in this video. He now claims that Jesus never called himself God. The Bible says that if someone says this they are an antichrist.
@@Vevay1961 I don’t have any investment in the question of Bell’s Christianity, but he does seem to fall within the historic bounds of orthodoxy for what it’s worth.
Why would anyone even begin to think that if we don't choose or follow Christ in this life that we would not change our mind in the next life? That is totally absurd. We cannot see and hear and make the best decisions in this life. We see, hear and know in part, like through a glass dimly. I think the obvious is that when we cross over into the heavenly realm EVERY SINGLE PERSON WILL REPENT. What I mean by this is that we will all (believer, non-believer, young, old, etc.) will change the way we think (which is what repentance is) because we will be able to see things that we didn't see in our earthly life. So if we believers can change the way we think as we see so much more than we could before, why could not and would not non-believers also change that way they think. Also I don't think there are any scriptures that negate the possibility of post mortem repentance.
this seems to be a conflict between a european view of christianity and a rabbinic one. europeans value falsifiable propositions and rabbis argue about things endlessly with no clear answer in view.
Rob Bell is basing his thoughts on scriptures, but unlike most commenters, he takes a scholarly approach. He is studying not only modern versions but also the original Hebrew and Greek texts, as well as an understanding of the 1st century audience, based upon Hebrew writings of the day, to get a more nuanced understanding of the scriptures. The scriptures were written from an Eastern perspective, which is very different from our modern Western perspective. I just finished Love Wins and I find it to be very thought-provoking and helpful for me to gain a better understanding of The Bible. In Acts 17:11we are called to imitate the Bereans: "Now the Berean Jews were of more noble character than those in Thessalonica, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true." We are meant to wrestle with the scripture, because it is NOT black and white! We are not called to be able to parrot whatever our pastors say, but to work out our the truth.
Rob is trying to have an intellectual and imaginative conversation about the Christ while these guys are asking him what tactical and earthly labels of Christianity that he believes in.....the conversation almost got cool when Rob asked them questions yet they completely didn't answer them and focused of making him answer their questions and pulling what they thought were his emotions out of the questions he asked...trying to label him was all this was about and it bored me to watch.
Man Adrian is seriously out of his depth... his reading of the Parable of the rich man is so ridiculously off. There is nothing there that suggests the "heaven and hell" is dependent on belief in Christ. And then he totally contradict himself with the "all things" thing. These fundies also pick and choose what words to take at face value, but they accuse others (like Rob Bell) of not reading scripture faithfully. It's nonsense.
This is also why rob doesn't understand the text, because he mistakes paradise for heaven. Paradise was in the underworld until the resurrection of Christ, it was where the Old testament saints went. When Christ descended into the earth in the three days that His Body was in the grave He went and ministered to the spirits in the underworld and to set the saints who were in paradise free and they rose from the dead with Him and appeared to many in Jerusalem according to the Scriptures. That was The First Resurrection. He took them with to Heaven, and paradise is eiter empty now, or it has become a part of the rest of hades
I don't know if Bell is correct. I've been looking into what the Bible is actually trying to teach us about hell. Sin is serious for sure that's why Jesus had to suffer and die as He did. I don't think you have to believe in enteral torment to want to repent. I know when I came to Christ I was just so overwhelmingly sorry for sinning against someone who, I finally realized had loved me so much. This was after hearing a sermon about Christ suffering on the cross. I can't say I was afraid of hell, or punishment. I knew I deserved punishment though, but didn't have to live under it because of love. As I've read the Bible it seems to be a story about God never giving up on us. "Father forgive them." was said about he people who knew the scriptures and had met God in the flesh and still hated Him. If Jesus is that patient for the ones who should have had no excuse, how much more patient is He for the rest of humanity? We should want to know what is true, not worry about being called a Liberal or not an Evangelical. That was weird how they kept bringing that up. They quote read from someone labeling it "Liberalism" seems like a using a buzz word to dismiss something. Also, quoting Time magazine? come on, do they decide what's Evangelical? Also, Time is always gonna be over dramatic about anything they think is gonna divide Christians. That's nothing new.
Still a fantastic conversation this many years later. I'm fairy conservative in my theology, but I love listening to Rob Bell. His questions strike deeply at many things we simply assume because we've grown up our entire lives hearing it. He makes me think even more deeply about my convictions, especially on this topic.
Which conversation were listening to? Mr Rob Bell avoided all the genuine questions ask of him. He does not seem to understand the topic at hand. Did he really write the book?
@@danieljones2048 Rob Bell was the only one answering questions. When the conversation finally got to the literature, Rob cited the verses and meaning of words that led him to his understanding, and Adrianne just went back to his bullying. "You can't be in the evangelical club if you don't believe like I do." and "aren't you worried what ppl will think of you if you ask questions?"
"And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death *and hell* were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death." (Rev. 20: 13-14) how does anyone conclude from this, that hell is the eternal punishment?
I'm just 9 minutes in and Rob is clearly deflecting. This seems like a performance to him, rather than a conversation. His body language is very odd. When Warnock hits a great point about Jesus in Psalm 2, showing Jesus is both loving and wrathful, look at his response: 35:39, dead silence for 6 seconds, looking to Justin to move to the next question. I imagine if Rob had just smoked pot for the first time and his Christian friends asked about it directly, this is how he would respond. Rob's Christian Friends: "Rob, did you smoke pot?" Rob: "Do you want to smoke pot?" Rob's Christian Friends: "Ok, maybe, but as Christians, there's a pretty clear message that we need to be sober...." Rob: "How do you define 'sober'? Aren't there so many ways we can all be "not sober"? Jesus didn't die and rise so we could just be "sober". Rob's Christian Friends: "Yes, true, but let's look at it another way, what good could possibly come from smoking pot, as a Christian?" Rob: "Yes! That's my question, too! I desperately want to believe that maybe there is something good about it. Maybe all the unbelievers who like it know something special that can amplify the Christian experience!" This is not what a pastor does. That's what Satan did. "Did God really say you can't eat from any tree?" - Overhyped straw-manning of God's commands. "No, you will certainly not die!" - Flat out lie. "In fact, God knows that when you eat it your eyes will be opened and you will be like God, knowing Good and evil." - True, but dismissing the rest of the story.
43:58 - There is 2 views that I know of to how a sinner can be punished for eternity. 1. The sin is against an eternal God so that punishment is eternal. 2. The sin is punished, however, the sinner continues to sin in hell because hell is a place where the full rebellion against God continues. The punishment is eternal because the sinners who will be living in hell for eternity will continue to sin again God in eternity and therefore getting the just punishment for eternity. After the sinner dies, they will remain forever a slave to sin and continue to sin again God eternally and would never want to repent. Regardless of whichever view one believes, the bible is clear the punishment is eternal (forever) in hell. It is also clear that God is just and will punish the sinner justly, nothing more and nothing less.
So discovered a few years ago now, so refreshing, freeing from some of the religious Christian beliefs. I am a follower of Christ and actually feel more free now after reading and listening to Rob Bell, who is on tour in the UK this year. I've got my ticket.
It's an interesting debate. You know, many of us were raised with a kind of southern California hippie version of Jesus as this laid-back, all-forgiving guy. That is the version many people want to believe. It's certainly a lot more fun and implicitly provides a greater latitude to think and behave in ways that are morally questionable. However, if one reads the Gospels objectively, you are immediately struck by how forceful Jesus is in many of his condemnations. Far from the mellow pacifist, He is, in fact, highly divisive and provocative in many of the things He does and says. One of the things He seems particularly contemptuous of is those who, in their pride and self-delusion, seem to believe they already have heaven in the bag. In fact, it could be argued that his belief in the salvation of sinners arises from his knowledge that they lack such blinding pride, and because of that, are open to redemption.
Rob Bell is obviously a decent bloke trying to hang on to his faith when the scriptures of that faith clearly talk about eternal torture... a one size fits all punishment where people who don't sign up to a specific religion/doctrine burn alongside child murders for ever and ever. Can you imagine if christians truly thought this to be true? Can you imagine what psychopaths they would have to be to proclaim love to the leader just because they had been chosen for freedom? It's like pretending to love Hitler because you are safe as a non-jew but eternally worse.
Rob is right. We have misunderstood the terms 'aion', 'aionion' and 'aionios'. They were incorrectly translated into latin as 'aeternum' which gives off the impression of neverending. This translation error is central to the discussion. His questions about this and the correspondent hebrew term 'olam' werent answered. Yet he was being accused of not taking scripture seriously. I would suggest hes taken scripture seriously enough to come to understand this and that it warrants further exploration rather than just condemning him and others because it goes against the perceived tradition. The question about the meaning of 'all things' was far from satisfactory also which again warrants further study and thought from those who insist on labelling people as heretics for holding to a more coherent view of Gods ultimate loving purposes through judgement.
Rob Bell should just say, "Yes, I believe people can be redeemed out of hell!"" CS Lewis touched on this in "The Great Divorce", Martin Luther allowed for the possibility of post-death conversion to Christ, and as Richard Rohr says, "We have created a monster god" through a monstrous interpretation of scripture, which scares people (sometimes into repentance, sometimes into disgust for the church as a whole).
I have watched many interviews with people who have had near-death experiences, and some of those people visited hell, only briefly, as a a kind of forewarning of where sin can lead. Some of them explained that just being there they were able to understand that the souls there could really leave hell any time they wanted simply by embracing God,.
I was reading a Catholic apologetics book recently and the author basically said that people who wind up in hell will be so attached to their sin that they won't want God. The "worms" and "fire" are symbolic for unfulfillment, pain, suffering, deceit, and violence, none of which will be present in Heaven with God.
@@KingdomCitizen1988 Well, I guess that the same can be seen here on earth...take, for example, a cartel member who lives fully embracing violence and killing, it would be safe to say that they literally have no thought nor desire for living an ethical life when they are fully immersed in that way of living. That to me is analageous to the hell dweller
I think three things need to be discussed to understand this, the nature of God, the nature of humanity and the nature of hell. Only understanding these three things together gives us an accurate picture.
Is there nothing to be learned by pondering the answers to good questions? If one is prompted to assess what Scripture says, then they are asked to go to Scripture for the answer. Can Rob answer better than Scripture? Would his answers really be better than his questions?
Nicholas Whitmire, Proclaimer Of Messiah Rob obviously had answers to all the questions. He just didn’t want to articulate them fully, I saw him only seeking to verify himself as still being a “Christian”(in the scheme of western evangelicalism). I respect his searching of truth and challenging of presuppositions of western evangelical thought/doctrine, it’s something all disciples of Christ need to assess for themselves. But when pressed for his answer regarding universalism, eternal punishment, and Hell- he gave absolutely no clarity. He just turned the question on the questioner, is he afraid of his own answer? Is he convinced of his own searching? It seems like Rob in his inquiry of studies metaphorically opened up a “can of worms” that if were to be true, would shift the entire paradigm of Christianity, and force it to venture off into theological territories unknown. This is exactly what he keeps pressing, but when questioned directly he’d rather spiel orthodoxy then challenge the questioner. Is he afraid to be known for what he actually believes? Personally, his avoidance was extremely frustrating.
@@peteryang2067 There was a time when the pagan doctrine of Hel was new to Christianity, but what Scripture teaches is the original. Rob is clearly rather agnostic on some of these details, and he doesn't fully understand how Scripture teaches regarding life, death, and identity; so he did his best. Rob also decided to let God and Scripture articulate his perspective, rather than be accused of going against Scripture, so he asked questions about God and Scripture to let Scripture speak. Rob couldn't directly answer because of his agnostic perspective on the points, there is no single dogmatic answer for him, can't give what doesn't exist. If he could've given direct answers, then come the accusations of going against God and Scripture, then would come the questions about what Scripture says; seems like cutting to the chase meant they covered far more ground in an hour.
Nicholas Whitmire, Proclaimer Of Messiah Well said, I agree. He should have just had the dialogue, because honestly, I DONT REALLY WANNA READ THE BOOK lol. Oh well
If one doesn’t have to believe in hell, why would you? It’s such a despicable and amoral concept. If you can’t be a universalist, at least be an annihilationist.
It doesn't matter what WE believe! It matters what God's word teaches. We can have constant shifts on our beliefs, but God and His word is constant and never changes. He is the same yesterday today and tomorrow.
@@bobbysmith855 I don’t have to, that’s God’s responsibility. I created my children and I can tell you two things for certain: 1. I love them unconditionally. 2. I would never let them be tortured no matter what they did or who they became.
Interesting discussion points. Ironically a direct answer would be an incorrect answer due to pre-conceived ideas and boxes of the listener... encourages me to do my own background research
Rob keeps going on about how the word for "eternal" in Greek doesn't really mean eternal - but it seems that this only applies when talking about Hell. What about Heaven, then? Adrian quoted a verse in which the same word is used to describe the duration of both Heaven and Hell - Apparently Heaven isn't forever either, then, Rob? What is God going to do with us after Heaven is over? How confused is that? Rob's answers are disingenuous and soaked with bias based upon fleeting emotions, in my opinion. To agree with his views, one has to ignore half of what Jesus actually teaches, with cheap sellouts like "but the story is filled with unrealistic pictures! Jesus is speaking on a totally different topic, if we look at the context of Jewish culture and tradition blah blablablah blah..." May God be a shield to you, people who listen to this guy. Dangerous talk, especially when the person speaking is that skilled in rhetorics.
no rob was about to address that eon of heaven but the moderator jumped in very quickly to move away from the greek.... first century context certainly does matter and what rob was proposing was and is completely relevant to any biblical scholarship study, something andrew didnt seem to grasp,,,
@@thoughtmocker I never heard him attempt to explain why the same term was used for the duration of Heaven as for Hell. If you know what he was about to say, please enlighten me. Though it should be said that if he were to try to explain that one away, I can't imagine the explanation being of much worth. The same word was used twice in the same sentence, thus the meaning would remain the same, or else the sentence would be profusely misleading and incompetently put together. I do not view God's Word in that way. Furthermore, I don't think it scholarly to shrug off elements of a story/allegory/ etc. told by Jesus because it seems "unrealistic" or whatever word Rob used. This is not about the verse I mentioned above, but the story about Lazarus and the rich man. He strays from the text, and looks at what Jesus "probably adressed" instead of what was literally told by Him. I prefer never to stray away from the text. To clearify, I didn't mean to say that looking at the historical context etc of the Scriptures is something we shouldn't do. I just hear it used way too often as an excuse / grounds for misleading people from the obvious interpreration of certain texts in order to push an agenda. Like people are currently doing regarding LGBTQ-related issues.
From the very first time I came across Rob Bell, I've known him to be very evasive and vague when questioned on what he believes about hell...its very boring listening to him
@chris monk... well you had a lot to say there and i’ll stay away from jumping into the weeds which is actually needed on this topic... like matt said we may not want to hear such a harsh message but that doesn’t mean it’s true... the same holds for eon ... rob is right about that word and yes heaven may not be forever as we wld describe it either... many dont hv enough guts to state that for obvious implications but none the less... may not like to hear it but that’s what it means... not sure if you read greek but it sounds like you don’t... id advise to take a beginners course in it... it is very fascinating once you understand the difficulties it can have in translating it.... there are still many greek words in the manuscripts that are untranslatable or ambiguous at best .... i understand why rob can be frustrating to talk too n in my prev post i explained exactly what he was doing in the first half of that interview... he was playing defensive chess... answering a question with a question (like jesus did many times) so as to see what den he was walking into.... again i dont think it was just him... justin usually runs a much tighter interview... this one got away from him.... i like justin and i like rob , first time being introduced to the other guy... doesn’t matter rob doesnt address the church anymore anyways and never will i dont think ...
That word is exactly translated "as-aeon" meaning: having the quality of aeon. This is the case 100% of the time, so if you want to hear the Scripture correctly apply the correct definition every time. Life as-aeon. But, let me ask some helpful questions: What does John ch11 teach about life and death? What does the New Testament teach about being dead in sins? What does it mean to be freed from marriage to sin through death in Christ? What does it mean to be baptized into Christ's death? Are these teachings about reality? Are these teachings true? Have you been taking the word "death" in it's proper context in Scripture? "As in Adam all die, in the same manner, in Christ are all made alive, but every in his own order. Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are His at His coming, then the end when He shall have delivered up the Kingdom to God even the Father; when He shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. Because He must reign, until He has put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed, death." - God's Scripture In what way do all die in Adam? Are all made alive in Christ in the same way? Are those two "all"s the same "all"? Is the wide gate to destruction referring to those who think they've found the gate? How many people find the way to life? Is eternal conscience torture the doctrine of many or few? Are many correct or few correct? If we are eternally cut-short (pruned like a tree), does that mean eternal torture? If we are eternally tested for purity, does that mean eternal torture? Do you know what "torment" means in the Greek? Do you know what "blasphemy" means in plain English? Blasphemy means vilification, to blaspheme is to vilify. Are you attached by ego to the doctrine learned by tradition of men? If the Scripture teaches differently than the tradition, will you trust God's Scripture?
I think the severity of the church's reaction, in those days, towards Rob much outweighed the severity of what he was actually saying. With exception to "Unbelievable?", they did a fair job. Rob asked great questions and made great points that weren't really being asked and talked about very much in the days of 2005-11 and he brought them to the forefront. It wouldn't surprise me in the least bit if the church's reaction to him is a major factor as to why Rob is not a Christian anymore. It could only have served as encouragement to him to keep moving in the direction he was going and away from where the lashing out was coming from.
Rob Bell doesn't have answers to questions that are put to him. Instead he asks questions in response. This is not only not clever. It's a sign that he doesn't know what he thinks or should think.
I’m not trying to be smart here.... in my observation and limited understanding of what I read in scripture when Jesus is asked on issues that the Pharisees and Seduces brought up.... didn’t He answer their questions with asking questions?
@@stephaniem895 Are you saying that someone who replies to questions with questions of their own should never be suspected of not being able to answer the question because Jesus answered questions with questions? If so, how could anyone distinguish between someone who knows the answer but likes to mimic Jesus and someone who is unable to articulate his position such that others can understand it?
It is very much Jewish tradition, that even Jesus followed, to absolutely answer a question with a question. This requires the student to work and dig through what he believes and in the long run is a better, fuller answer for the student as opposed to the teacher just giving an answer. Give someone a fish dinner and he is thankful. Teach someone how to fish and when they put forth the struggle, catch and prepare the meal, they are more fully satisfied and better prepared for the future. A very good teacher doesn’t usually just give you the answer but rather gives you the tools to find the answer.
I feel like so much is lost in conversations like this because of Ego. Instead of being about the ideas, its about "What does Rob Bell believe". It becomes personality cultish. Rob bell is one human of billions of humans, on one planet of trillions of planets. I think that a detachment from ego and what "I" believe would lead to a focus on the ideas themselves
Rob has a seething type of attitude, giving a sense of wanting to give tradition the finger. The way Rob turns the discussion back on the one asking and acts almost ignorant and yet in a very confident way, I get this strong impression of a smug, annoyed individual who has to endure morons. No matter how much Rob acts like he is solidly Biblical, the interview is run through with Rob as the arbiter of what is and is not true.
So in your view the other two act as though they aren’t arbitors based on their current understanding of scripture? Name a teacher that doesn’t represent confidence in their understanding of scripture if that were possible
To answer Rob's question at 31:02, yes it's possible to live in this world and you have no hope of salvation once God gives you over to your desires and you believe at lie. He must read Romans 1.
To question the nature of what "hell" is, does not make someone not evangelical!!! As clear as some think, or wish the subject is... there is a ton that is debatable and is NOT clear about it! Rob throws out GREAT and legitimate questions.
That maybe so, but on the other hand, if he want new readers and thinkers to get to know him and his way of being in the world, he really needs to answer. At least som of rhe questions.
Stormy You might want to listen back on the interview because he did answer some of the questions. He believes in the bodily resurrection of Jesus Christ. And he answered some other questions. When it comes to religion, far too often people want to pigeonhole you and label you so that they can instantly discount you and brand you as a heretic instead of actually grappling with and fully looking at the subject matter. I think he did an outstanding job of not being manipulated. And leaving a little bit of mystery about his ultimate belief doesn’t bug me one bit. Makes me want to read his book again, or watch some more interviews.
40:03 -- "We don't use one word to mean two different things in the same sentence." We don't? Example: "The bronze age was replaced by the iron age." Is "age" in that sentence the same length of time in both instances? Of course not. I don't believe in eternal life because Matt 25.46 says aionion (age long) life. I believe in eternal life because Paul tells us we will be given immortal bodies (1 Cor. 15.53). How long is aionion punishment? What is the purpose of that punishment?
Re: eternal damnation - the gift of salvation is eternal life... the wages of sin is death... so is there "eternal" damnation and suffering for sinners?
I am a nonbeliever, but I believe the bible says in John 3:16 that: that whosoever believeth in him should not PERISH, BUT have EVERLASTING LIFE. It does not say: that whosoever believeth in him will go to heaven and, if not, go to hell. PERISH means kaput, gone, dead, no longer existing. So, it seems some will be dead forever and some to the gift of EVERLASTING LIFE. I, myself, do not even want to live forever, as that would be horrible in never being able to remove myself from existing.
One more thing, I think the religious organizations are having to change their view on hell, as this is one reason why the churches are failing and people leave. I actually heard a woman say that the reason she left the christian church and become a Jehovah's Witness was because of the hell doctrine. I am a nonbeliever, but I think a loving god would not let someone stay in a hell forever.
It is beyond the power of the human mind to estimate the evil which has been wrought by the heresy of eternal torment. The religion of the Bible, full of love and goodness, and abounding in compassion, is darkened by superstition and clothed with terror. When we consider in what false colors Satan has painted the character of God, can we wonder that our merciful Creator is feared, dreaded, and even hated? The appalling views of God which have spread over the world from the teachings of the pulpit have made thousands, yes, millions, of skeptics and infidels. -- Ellen G. White, The Great Controversy, p. 536
I'm curious if Justin has had any movement on this topic due to his conversations with N.T. Wright. Wright speaks with many eastern Orthodox who also don't have a vision of TCH. The point isn't to get your ticket punched but to help with the new creation process.
Agree with Adrian on all the issues, not Rob. I do sympathise with Rob over how horrible he finds the idea of eternal punishment in Hell. I find it horrible as well, and I believe in it.
For those listening maybe also tune in to Brad Jerzak ex Evangelical pastor now Eastern Orthodox. Check out their understanding on this subject called Apokatastasis. Rob here mirrors Jesus's experience with the Pharisees who relied on theological tradition. What Rob is saying here is restoring the unique truth of Jesus reconciling ALL of creation to Himself and defeating ALL sin and death. For those who denied and crucified Him then and those down the ages Jesus spoke to the Father while on the cross..."Father FORGIVE them (and have mercy) for they know not what they do. The wrath of God...the consequences of our sin while on earth! The narrow path...the few who genuinely experience the peace and rest in the Kingdom of God in the here and now. God's justice that needs to be satisfied...Jesus cleared the ledger. We can go on and on and please remember that Jesus was a man and not yet the risen Lord, and all His parables was simply rhetoric to prompt those listening to seek the reality and benefits of God's Kingdom in their midst. Yes if we are to take His parables as hard and fast doctrines of truth we should also be gouging out eyes and chopping of hands when we ogle at women and steal etc. Literal interpretation that Protestant Fundamentalism has promoted since the late 18th century has been a major stumbling block to those genuinely seeking Christ centred spirituality. That, and institutionalism it's bent for control it's ego fuelled hypocrisy etc etc no wonder the church "buildings" are now coffee, arts and craft and second hand book shops. Thank God for the likes of Rob Bell, Richard Rohr, Paul Young Brian McLaren so called progressive heretics by those indoctrinated by generations of Protestantism. They have been a blessing for all those who love and FOLLOW (not religious Christianity) Jesus and are willing to be transformed into His likeness. If I could find a fellowship like Spero Dei in Melbourne I would I'm sure be welcomed to not only talk the talk but also walk the walk. Shalom to all who love Jesus and welcome the authority of the H.S. ❤️
Rob bell says “help someone find salvation...” he is a universalist so what is salvation to him?it is not Gods will that any should perish, I believe that! It ALL STARTS with the fact that we are all lost and condemned, the Messiah came to draw ALL men to the Father, but people reject that offer, sadly. So those who reject Gods offer of deliverance, what God forces them to come? Some kind of reverse irresistible grace. First it is not scriptural, second its nonsensical!
I have never seen Rob claim that he was a universalist. I think he allows it to be a mystery so that people will concentrate on the topic and not on him. I love the questions he asks in his book. They’re very powerful and they demand answers. What they do is they blow away paradigms that many of us have been taught our whole life. You may not get all the answers but you might get more questions and that’s OK if that is what has been revealed in scripture. People always want answers clean and cut. But there’s many subjects that are not.
Mark Metternich Photography, LLC I didn’t have questions after I read the book. It was clear from his perspective “love wins”. He defines that very clearly that God wins ALL humans in the end analysis, and if anyone goes to hell then Godbis a loser! If you didn’t clearly get that from reading his book than reread it.
I feel like Rob is coming from this from a 'bigger picture' angle. So he emphasizes what's the most important way to engage with the man on the street who has these questions. But the other two are coming from a place of "ok yes we know what's the most important thing to emphasize for new Christians, we know some mysteries are left to God, but this specific issue of Hell is what we're here to discuss as it ties in somewhat with the Gospel message." Rob is here to discuss, but I think the others were expecting a friendly debate.
The moment when Rob attempts to discuss the first century understanding of the English word eternal by referencing the Greek, Hebrew and rabbinic tradition of using the term is telling. It appears that Adrian Warnock isn’t familiar with this basic scholarship or knows that it poses a serious challenge to his “traditional” view. Instead of addressing the issue, he redirects. It seemed to me that both Warnock and the host cared more about labeling Rob’s views than understanding them. Rob is very patient and kind.
Exactly! Well said!
To be fair, Rob Bell seems to be doing a lot of deflecting as well.
Good point here. The Greek and first century Hebrew texts reveal some meaning missed by English translations and we need to honestly look into this without just believing a doctrine because we’re told we have to. Bell is very well-informed and more than a match for this line of questioning.
Yes so true.
Rob says the parable of the rich man and Lazarus is more of a hijacking by Jesus of something popular purely for that timeframe, not a teaching and window into the future.
I don't think confining Jesus's words to pure first century tradition gets to the root of the issue
““I have told you these things, so that in me you may have peace. In this world you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world.””
- John 16:33
Ridiculous
Tim Keller has a brilliant article on hell that cuts to the chase. Here's a portion:
Some years ago I remember a man who said that talk about the fires of hell simply didn't scare him, it seemed too far-fetched, even silly. So I read him lines from C.S. Lewis:
"Hell begins with a grumbling mood, always complaining, always blaming others . . . but you are still distinct from it. You may even criticize it in yourself and wish you could stop it. But there may come a day when you can no longer. Then there will be no you left to criticize the mood or even to enjoy it, but just the grumble itself, going on forever like a machine. It is not a question of God 'sending us' to hell. In each of us there is something growing, which will BE Hell unless it is nipped in the bud."
To my surprise he got very quiet and said, "Now that scares me to death." He almost immediately began to see that hell was a) perfectly fair and just, and b) something that he realized he might be headed for if he didn't change.
We run from the presence of God and therefore God actively gives us up to our desire (Romans 1:24, 26.) Hell is therefore a prison in which the doors are first locked from the inside by us and therefore are locked from the outside by God (Luke 16:26.) Every indication is that those doors continue to stay forever barred from the inside. Though every knee and tongue in hell knows that Jesus is Lord (Philippians 2:10-11,) no one can seek or want that Lordship without the Holy Spirit (1 Corinthians 12:3.This is why we can say that no one goes to hell who does not choose both to go and to stay there. What could be more fair than that?
So well put, actually inspired!
Remarkable answer. It comes in perfect time for me to teach my 15-year-old daughter about the conscious of sin. Thank you for sharing. Can't wait to read the book.
Something more I'd like to add. This comment from you has led me to think that we are, as Christians, brothers, and sisters in Crist, no matter where we are. We share a common faith and we resist the evil of the world which, quite often, comes with sophisticated disguises. So, I just want to thank you again for your post because somehow it gave me strength in a moment of weakness and doubts.
Read The Chronicles of Narnia, specifically The Last Battle: "The dwarfs are for the dwarfs." Is there anyone who will undertand my comment?
I love Tim Keller (and C.S. Lewis), but I feel this concept of locking the doors from the inside only works in theory (and I say that as someone who used to preach this exact message).
I can imagine people rebelling / rejecting God AT FIRST. I can see them locking those doors from the inside for a few months, a few years-MAYBE even a few decades… But ETERNITY?
Is it feasible to believe that 100% of the people that wind up in hell will continue to reject God and NOT seek repentance? A 24-year-old born in the wrong country? A 40-year-old who's spent their entire life being manipulated, hurt, betrayed by “church” folk? A 50-year-old who tried to stay faithful, but lost everything (much like Job), but never had their moment where God speaks from a whirlwind?
OR as Rob Bell aptly questions… would God continue to punish a 17-year-old for the choices they made in those short 17 years of life… for ETERNITY? Can a developing mind truly carry enough HUBRIS to last FOREVER? This great God who created the universe, time, space, and conquered death… Can't figure a way to soften the heart of a 17-year-old? How can an “omnipotent” God be so impotent?
Interview summed up:
Host and Adrian: "Do you think (.....)?"
Rob Bell: "Do you?"
So annoying
Yes, ridiculous. It sounds like he goes as far as he dares, and then leaves it vague.
This was interesting! I liked the part about how the word Jonah used as "forever" means 3 days haha.
Wow I must say..I watched this is 2013, and felt very much on the ‘side’ of the hosts. But now my 30 year old self is watching in some disbelief at the hostility and narrow mindedness of these questions. Rob displayed such grace, humility and courage. I may not agree with all his views but you can’t doubt that ‘God is Love’
Me in 2011: Rob Bell is straying from orthodoxy and is on the verge of dangerous ground...
Me in 2020: Rob Bell hadn’t quite gotten free of toxic religion yet, but he is on the verge of holy ground...
I was thinking the same
If you guest refuses to present clear answers about his opinion, kick him out, there is no need to hear endless question without a few attempts of answers
Me in 2011: Rob seems to be straying from orthodoxy.
Me in 2020: Rob seems to be straying from orthodoxy and is very adept at being evasive about it.
Tim Matteson Glad to hear you have grown over the past decade!
Ps2MexFan he answered. They just didn’t like his answer
So I was just thinking Mr. Bell would be a much better politician than preacher. Then he goes and asks for a free copy of Adrian’s book. Perfect
Have you heard of a concept of a joke?
Bryce Clemmer sure, but there is generally an element of truth in a joke. Additionally, the way a person jokes can reveal something about who they are-their character. I was just making an observation. I didn’t particularly care for Mr. Bell’s brand of joking. I found him snide and condescending for the most part. Perhaps he is arrogant and believes he is always the smartest guy in the room, or perhaps he is insecure and desperate to cover over his insecurities. I don’t know. Maybe it’s a bit of both or maybe it’s neither and I am way off. Either way, I found him to be obnoxious.
He can be a double bullshitter!
Christianity needs more Rob Bells.
John 6:44 ""No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day."
God makes the first move!
@Barkoot Geleta Nor Per-se, I believe in what the Bible says about predestined, but I don't believe people have been predestined to go to a lost eternity.
Abstract, but hopeful ... Hopeful, if love wins.
For those that find Rob Bell’s perspective a breath of fresh air I would recommend from a more Eastern Orthodox perspective Bradley Jersak’s “Her Gates Shall never be Shut” and a brilliant and compelling book written by David Bentley Hart entitled “that all shall be saved; heaven, hell and universal salvation”.
Universalism is a lie of the devil and totally opposite of Biblical teaching.
Hi Paul, Bentley-Hart has produced an interesting translation of the NT.
I’m interested in whether you’ve seen it and if so, what you think of it.
@@colinloechel8378 Yes! I really do like Bentley Hart’s translation and reference it often.
I have had zero interest in the Bible after 10 years out of Christian Ministry. I started reading Love Wins and read the Bible for the first time recently with genuine interest and excitement.
Amen. You still reading? What have you learned?
I love Rob Bell’s fresh prospective of God, and I also understand that he too is still searching and may not have everything figured out, as no one does and as no one will ever have everything figured out in regard to so many mysteries when it comes to God. As a former church attendee, let me tell you what this whole thing came down for me: yes, God is both a loving entity and simultaneously angry with sin. The church/pastors have focused too much ( at least the ones I’ve gone to) on the anger of God towards sin and not enough on the love of God towards humanity. Rob Bell is searching the loving aspects of God, he puts focus on that since, God knows we have enough- unhealthy so- focuse on the wrath and anger of God. And that’s what keeps me away from the church- the constant guilt lashing, anger preaching, emotional manipulation circling around how horrible we are and how much we have to constantly repent. The hosts are trying to be nice, versus Rob is being nice.
You should try attending again. No one preaches on sin anymore.
Rob Bell is apparently saying that in some cases the Koine Greek of the New Testament was mistranslated into English such that the original Greek does not mean the same thing as the English translation. He's apparently also claiming that in some cases the translation is accurate, but is misunderstood. For example, some exegetes claim that when Jesus said that the condemned will be cast into everlasting fire, he wasn't saying that the condemned will never be removed from the fire. He was merely saying the fire itself never goes out.
I’m so glad I came back to this confrontation. Originally I agreed with Justin and Adrian. But after years of diving into these types of debates and my own study - I’m a little shocked at how much Justin and Adrian were “telling” Rob what his fundamental beliefs were. I think they would have gotten much farther by first asking what Rob believes and entering into his questions with more thought on the meanings of things like “eternal,” “punishment,” or etc.
Totally disagree with you. Justin and Adrian read Bell's words in his book back to him - then recited what the Bible says - and then Bell either said nothing or minimized his heresy. Bell was clearly evasive (ie, did not defend) his heretical statements in his book.
I read about 1/2 of the book as part of a comprehensive study on "hell" and although I am not a Universalist (I doubt that Rob is one) the book absolutely did two GODLY things in me. It refreshingly broke some paradigm's I had and got me to start thinking more seriously and creatively about things I had been taught in the past. And MOST IMPORTANTLY and SURPRISINGLY (I thought I would not like the book) it very noticeably and significantly produced the Fruit of the Spirit in me! I read the top books on all the positions on "hell" and this one produced the Fruit of the Spirit in me! What that said to me is that there is a lot of truth in the book! Did I become a Universalist? No! But it opened my my to a much broader view of salvation. This subject has been given to us in scripture in a way that the precise nature of "hell" is simply not clear. Some aspects of it are, but NOT as much as some will adamantly claim. I'm glad the topic is being discussed and considered prayerfully by people, and I love that Rob does not let them put him in a box. Rob ask great questions! I believe it extremely important to prayerfully grapple with the scriptures and truth in our lives and to be honest about what we do not know for sure. Jesus rose, that if for sure. What the "second death" in Revelation precisely is, or what Jesus meant by "Perish" is open to debate all day long!
Open for debate? Sola Scriptura. John describes what the second death is. Read further
@@joshhigdon4951 yes John describes The second. We need to learn how to read these passages symbolically Josh. These things are not literal. Is Jesus literally a little baby lamb standing at the center of a throne? Well of course not. Revelation is symbolic in his pointing to different things. The second death is the death of death itself, and the death of separation between man and God. The lake of fire represents God’s cosmic plan to burn away everything from the human soul that is not like him. This will take different ages and length of time to go through for some versus others. The true biblical meanings behind the English words eternal and everlasting prove this. God operates in ages and eons of time. Not sure how much you know about Greek and its nuances in the New Testament
Some people will resist and continue to suffer in their personal hell, other people will Soften sooner than later, but at the end of revelation John sees people coming out of the lake of fire and into the new Jerusalem, “whose gates will never be shut day or night”.
Josh answer this question - why would the gates never be shut? In a secluded, tribal, elitist religious community like Calvinism is, the gate to heaven would always be closed in the final estimation of things, because all the elect are in. Because it is an isolated exclusive community.
But this gate of the new Jerusalem always WILL BE open, and the invitation to “come!” will always go forward! Read it yourself. Why is the invitation to come into the new Jerusalem continuing to go out even after death???? Because souls can still be saved after death! If we think about that brother that’s simple logic. Now our job is to go ask ask Holy spirit for revelation as wevread Revelation ha ha. It has to be read symbolically… Holy Spirit has to point out what he’s really talking about beneath the literal surface reading.
This is how the apostle Paul learned to read scripture, it’s why he realized that the Old Testament was the “ministry of death” WHEN READ LITERALLY. It’s symbolic my man. The letter kills but the spirit gives life Paul said. This means that reading Bible passages literally in certain places brings death to our spirits because they are not meant to be read that way. On their surface reading it appears like God is commanding to kill and smite and destroy. These things are symbols to my friend of deeper realities. God is killing and destroying things inside of us and all humanity that keep us back and keep us from loving correctly. This is what the lake of fire is. It is the returning of us to our true nature, our God given image and identity inside. This is what the lake of fire does and purifies people back to the state and bring them to a place of repentance so they can see their need for God and for other people. We only know what God is like by looking at Jesus. If Jesus does not commit violence and take life and permit people being stoned or hurt or fire call down from heaven on them, this means Jesus does not believe in retaliation and violence and destroying people. And God the father is exactly like Jesus is. When you have seen Jesus you have seen the father! And no Jesus will never change his actions and what he does in the future. Jesus Christ is the same yesterday today and forever! Now that scripture makes sense doesn’t it?
So much beauty and truth is lost when we look at things only literally. The greatest most powerful things in the world are taught through symbols and figures. Feel free to private message me. I was a former Calvinist and God had mercy on me and showed me the light. If we believe God is going to save us Josh, while there’s others he will NOT pick, we have fallen prey to what’s called confirmation bias and cognitive dissonance. Also a whole lot of pride and arrogance. And not knowing how to read Jesus and Paul correctly of course.
Paul was the biggest Universalist that has ever lived. His language in his epistles is full of the theme of all things being reconciled back to God through Christ. All things whether on earth or under the earth my brother will be reconciled back to God through Christ! All things, all things. God is much much bigger than Calvinism has taught. Calvinism’s God is a weak and small and petty and childish and schizophrenic and terrible God. The god of Calvinism is no God at all, it is a figment of John Calvin‘s imagination. God bless you bro, sorry this was so long, and feel free to private message me. Big blessings man
@@thejjshow2488 while I appreciate the reply, thats way to much to even try to respond to. But in saying that, I think you're either misunderstanding what my very short comment was, or you're just adding to what I said with no basis for doing so.
Just little background...I am a reformed baptist who believes strictly Scripture alone as being the final authority. That doesn't insinuate, at all, that I dont understand basic hermeneutics of the passages. To assume that from that very short comment I wrote is disingenuous at best.
I agree Rob asked great questions, and I don’t believe he was being evasive in any way.
I also agree with the substance of your post and especially your conclusions.
I’m curious - did you get to read the second half of the book, and would you recommend it?
@@thejjshow2488 no, you have to use exegesis. Its not about symbolism or any other excuse you want to use. Sure, there is symbolism, there is literalism, apocalyptic language, etc, but it doesn't make it untrue. Rob is a universalist, not unlike many neo-evangelists and g@y affirming christianity. Its all lies. They create a god in their own image. They are the creatures saying to the Creator "why have you made me this way". There is a hell and its not a figure of speech. While it may not be literal fire, the symbolism points to it being horrible and fire isn't a fun thought to ponder. However, hell is Gods wrath being poured out on unrepentant sinners. Thats what hell is. They could be in heaven for all we know, but they will ve suffering Gods wrath, which is hell. The only other person that knows what Gods full wrath is is the person of Christ, who suffered Gods wrath for the atonement, imputation, amd justification for "all the Father draws". Christ death did not atone for every person who ever lived.
"Repent for the Kingdom of heaven is at hand" What do you think this means if it is not a warning. "The ax is already at the root of the tree, if you do not produce good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire." It does not say you will be taken out of the fire if you repent later.
Yes there are some clear verses that seem to make your point, but there and others that might seem to contradict it. This is no clear issue as to the precise nature of hell. All verses from Genesis to Revelation have to be considered as it is a long unfolding narrative in the Bible. "Four Views on Hell Paperback - January 6, 1997" and the second edition are a great start to see the broader narrative.
@@MarkMetternichPhotographyLLC There are no verses tjat contradict it. Refer to them if you can? Hell is a state more than a place. You are not sent there, you end up there. It is your own attitude. It is not a punishment it is a consequence.
Meta Space Crowned By Time john is talking specifically to the jews about christ being revealed ... its specific to the jews with reference to the tree producing fruit ref as in prophecy in isaiah ... not meant for us... christ revealed himself to the jews first then his death n rez included gentiles... anything else from that scripture is proof texting... repent literally means change your mind!
Meta Space Crowned By Time I gave you a pretty good primer book that lays out the different perspectives on “hell”’s more precise nature. I studied the subject very extensively from all the main perspectives and from the best advocates of those positions and YES, there is a Gehenna (valley of Ben Hinnom) Sheol, Hades, Tartarus, Abaddon... described in hundreds of verses in the Bible, each having a variety of implications and unfolding meanings related to the nature of the finally impenitent wicked’s destination. Yes there are consequences to hating or avoiding Gods Love, and relationship. But it’s precise nature is not clear. Some aspects of it seem so, but others not, when one dives deep into the subject comprehensively. I’m not a Universalist and I don’t think Rob is (but not entirely sure) and part of my intensive, over a year study had Robs book come up as a position to read. A very theologically trained friend who was not a Universalist recommended it to me. I did not want to read it due to not being interested in something that might be even remotely Universalist, but I read it (most of it) and found it VERY interesting (particularly the great questions!) and it created a significant spike of Love, compassion, kindness, goodness... The Fruit of the Spirit... in my life, notably. After giving it a fair shake, I believe the book has a lot of truth in it, and it is recommended if a person wants to look at all the issues and angles related to the important topic. But no, it did not make me change what I see as the strongest case. One study showed me is that (a lot like eschatology!) people that think the issue is open and shut clear, simply are not looking unbiased at all the Bible says on the matter. Nor carefully considering the genre’s of literature and the full view of the entire narrative. If you have not given the subject a thorough investigation from all perspectives, I highly recommend it.
Jake Vezeau Pretty close here. Metanoia is two words that literally mean “mind change” and “afterward”. Or, to “think differently - afterward.” It also
implies heart change with the different thinking/afterward. Original Biblical thinking does not separate a mind change from a heat change. They are integrally connected.
There are also many types of “metanoia.” They are not all weeping in sackcloth and ashes like you see more in the Old Testament (because Messiah had yet to come and do His redeeming work). After praying to God one could be touched by God and not help but to “think differently afterward” about how awesome God is, and of course that would result in a natural transformation of ones heart and create joy”!
Also about the fruit... that is not entirely true. In the Bible the Tree/Bush/Vine/Branch/Fruit is a extremely long developing narrative that starts in Genesis 1 and is echoed through all the letters even to the end of Revelation. In ancient biblical thinking/narrative tree, vine, fruit, branch are all forms of Tree. Aside from God and Humans it is a motif or design pattern used more than any other living thing in all of scripture. The vine, tree, fruit of the vine and so forth represent God Himself Who is Eternal Life and being plugged into Him. The general clear idea is that if someone genuinely comes to Christ/God and genuinely believes into Gods grace gift of Himself/eternal life/forgiveness/Love... God comes into us, we come into him and that is transformative. No way around that. God in-dwells the believer (belief changes heart) and there is no way out of the fact that good fruit, transformation, thinking differently afterward will naturally occur and grow in us. In other words, if years are going by and the fruit of the spirit is not growing in our lives, we might want to double check the authenticity of our faith in Jesus.
So maybe I am misunderstanding you, but just belief does not get us in. It is a genuine belief that has transformation built in.
The most conservative and traditional belief of scripture is to love God, to love others, and even to love yourself. Beyond that, it's just commentary.
Dear Premier Christian radio and Justin, THANK YOU. Your work in bringing these issues up and presenting both sides is so much appreciated
Um, all of the questions were directed at Mr. Bell. How is that both sides? More like, Attack of the Clones. Just kidding. I am thankful too.
Does Rob ever directly answer any questions?
Looks like he learned from the way Jesus answered questions!
I'm am so annoyed by Rob right now. It's like they are asking him questions about a book he never wrote!
@@trentbridenpiano Do you mean these guys are trying to trick Rob as did those with Jesus? Rob does well in a monologue, but as soon as someone challenges his position everything comes tumbling down. No, Jesus didn't answer questions like this.
Did Satan?
@@trentbridenpiano Jesus answered many questions more directly than expected!
Wow! This was amazing discourse. I was very grateful the disagreements were handled with mutual respect. Sometimes you could see it was hard to do. :) Its critically important to respectfully talk about our understanding of the Bible without eating each other alive. You 3 gave me a lot to think about. Many thanks, gentlemen. I hope I view other "Premier Christian Radio Videos" like this in the future. God bless you all!
Thanks for the debate. I'm planning to read Love Wins
Rob after dying in front of God
God: dear Rob, have you sinned on earth?
Rob Bell: I don't know, have you?
You got to love Rob. He so much reminds me of Jesus. Always talking in parables.
Hahaha, that's funny
I don't know why this isn't top comment😂👌
So funny jajaja
@@larryfreund5536 , Jesus' parables led people to answers.
It seems like Rob makes controversial statements in his books and videos, but when challenged on them he is vague and hesitant. I think that says a lot about the solidity of his claims.
He is a terrible bunch, frustrating listening to him... Never certain about anything
Exactly, Dan. It's actually hard not to become flustered with his constantly avoiding direct questions by asking what Justin or Adrian believe.
The belief that everyone is going to Heaven. It is one of the most damaging ideas in modern times because it removes the necessary sense of urgency in earnestly seeking our salvation
Thats the thing that everyone is seeming to miss though. Bell never sought out to make any objective claims, he only says that our traditional view of hell may not be the certain truth, and then presents other alternative theory's.
@@GameCrawler but he refuses to say which alternative theory he believes is correct or even what one he thinks is more likely to be so. Where is the scholarship in saying "this view might not be right, there are these other views..."? We know the alternative theologies/thoughts on Hell already. They aren't new. He revels in creating this ambiguity, he can't hide his grin when ppl are frustrated by his evasion when he is asked his personal view on the matter. If he is responsible for the spiritual "health" of his flock he should be wary of teaching false doctrine. Ppls souls could be in jeopardy. Either he doesn't care, or he does care, but doesn't think anyone's souls are actually in danger. If the latter is true, (and I trust it is,) then why not just say it?
I like how Rob goes into the context and meanings of words that we translate as "forever". Adrian was frustrating me when he was saying, "literal translation of scripture". I thought that analyzing the etymology, utility, and context of words IS literal translation. Rob frustrated me by continuously answering questions with questions.
Totally agree. Both were talking across purposes.
Justin was surprisingly biased in this one too.
I liked how Mr. Bell admitted, he is still learning. May that be a lesson to us all, to keep asking questions. Such humility! ... To dialogue, not merely to put others on trial.
Of course, a real debate would have a moderator, and the moderator would be asking questions of both sides. Therefore, I felt Mr. Bell was free, here, to make his own rules.
There is no Greek word that means 'eternal' or for ever. The Greek word in the NT always means a time period, or is a qualitative expression!
It's okay Rob. They aren't ready for it.
Ready for what he not saying anything new
Señor Bell, When someone asks you a question, a coherent answer would be much appreciated. Buenas Noches.
Is it wrong that Rob would have the other person think for themselves and give honest consideration? What means more to you, what one other person insists, or what your honest thoughts think? Therefor, Rob seeks to offer the most meaningful discussion. It's easy enough to not think about, and just assume and insist Rob is wrong; but to think about it for ourselves prevents simple assumption and stokes self-honesty.
Exactly my thoughts. He is shifty and not transparent at all.
@@sammiezook I don't get where you are coming from. The questions let one consider God and Scripture, which is a better more enlightening means of discussion than personal claims. I can't relate to the accusation that Rob was shifty, I see zero merit to that.
Rob is pretty well known for being a kind of sage, who pitches the question back, often rephrasing it to challenge the inquirer to consider it more deeply. He has a talent for forcing his students to more deeply consider their questions, often empowering them to derive their own answers, or even open their eyes to their preconceptions and biases inherent in the question. He has a gift, but it wasn't useful in this discussion.
@@yourfavoritesteve How was it not useful? Seems he was able to put listeners in place to consider possibilities which they have been trained to never consider lest they be deemed heretics, and kept the focus on God and Scripture. Justin and Adrian were trying to focus on Rob and his doctrine, but Rob kept it about Scripture and God. The important question is what may be true; it's not so important what Rob's own doctrinal stance is. Looks like most viewers want Rob to simply say something they can accuse as heresy, but would that have been more helpful to anyone? Is there something I am missing here? What would have been more useful to the discussion?
(I know the technical aspects that fully clarify the matter, and if you ask I'll gladly tell, but I don't think Rob had that full technical understanding so he couldn't share it. I would love to discuss it with Rob on a livestream, could help people see exactly what Scripture actually teaches, which is VERY Good News indeed)
From what I can tell, Rob Bell is challenging people to think critically of their relationship with God. I think for the most part, the people who are trying to defame him aren’t wanting to do that. If you have a relationship with God, then we shouldn’t fear the thought of “Is my relationship with God genuine?”
This! I absolutely agree. @rexevans9070 I hope you are still thinking critically of your relationship with God!
@@MaxMax-ib6xg thanks for asking. Yes I still am doing that. It started way back when I married my wife 33 years ago. I was vehemently against anyone who lived a gay lifestyle. Then I met my wife who lived a lesbian lifestyle for 7 years before that. My paradigms started to blow up back then. It’s been quite a journey with God since then.
Rob Bell has a great debate style, he's not forcing anyone to believe what he believes he's just asking questions based on the bible verses themselves.
Yes! Really enjoy. I wouldn’t trust Adrian’s hermeneutics on anything serious.
The problem among us Christians is that we categorise each other depending on not just the church we belong to but also political views. There are far too many “christianists” who believe in all sorts of “christianism” instead of just being humble believers in and followers of Jesus Christ.
That just about everyone is going to Heaven. It is one of the most damaging ideas in modern times because it removes the necessary sense of urgency in earnestly seeking our salvation - Watered down Christianity does not speak much about Hell. It does not warn souls of the danger they face - -"If men only knew what awaits them in eternity, they would do everything in their power to amend their lives" - "Among adults there are few saved because of sins of the flesh.... With the exception of those who die in childhood, most men will be damned"
I like your point! I think Jesus gets trampled in our polarization.
Have you thought, perhaps Jesus is a moderate? I think, for example, because of the nature of the Ten Commandments' being ten, not nine or eleven (liberal or conservative), likely Jesus was a moderate. His Beatitudes, to me, are analogous to the Ten.
You can have whatever view you want, friend, but if it doesn't comport with the scriptures, then it is worthless and wrong. People don't like things that are black and white but God is very clear when he speaks and there is no equivocation in His truth.
@@DB-dl5zm And in your view where and how and to whom does God speak?
Oh no, not those Christianists. I heard they love labeling and judging people.
Rob repeatedly reflects the questions, saying, "Well, do you?". It doesn't matter what I think, Rob, you're the one who wrote a book about this and you're the one who needs to answer the questions clearly.
The host quoted his rhetorical questions within the book… it’s to ponder on the answer and to have discussions about them. He doesn’t have the answer hence why he asks “Well, do you?” because neither do they.
@@rutakassa5631 The whole point of a rhetorical question is that the answer is obvious- not that there isn't one. Even though he doesn't give an answer, he certainly has a bias and a worldview shaping his thoughts.
@@genessapanainte2609 Hmm I disagree. The whole point of a rhetorical question is to make a point… the obvious answer is that there isn’t one, hence why he continues to respond with “Well, do you?” because the host and co-guest don’t know either.
I don't agree with Rob Bell in a lot of things but when he was speaking about the cross and the payment of sin and we could not do or fulfill what Christ did, your guest didn't even respond to that truth, but went around to find something else Rob was doing or saying.
True, also the host tends to step in when a good dialogue is about start. The guest could have asked "but where is that in your book?" and pressed him. Guess he's not perfect either.
this was a very sloppy done interview... not usually the case ...but both interviewers were cutting each other off in eagerness to ask their questions... and when rob fires back finally with substance the moderator wants to move on from the greek and first century jewish context.... rob clearly at the beginning of this interview is playing defensive chess here, all the while scoping for information from the two to understand the den he has entered. it was an ok interview but seemed a bit scattered in nature and the interviewers were spending to much time trying to "nail jello to the wall" instead of exploring the premises in a deeper manner.
Rob did not have much substance. He made himself to sound biblically illiterate on the subject. He said nothing to convince anyone of what he believes. "It was an ok interview" but Rob just didn't have the wherewithall to defend his position.
@dennis- so i assume you already know that the chances of anyone changing anyones mind (when said person already has a conclusion on the matter (you?) is next to impossible unless you have a personal connection and long standing discourse with that person... and even then you must have an open mind... i agree with you about the substance part but at the same time, the interviewers had a big part in that... they easily could have discussed chapter xyz of the book and dive into the premise of the book rather than stay high level trying to get him to admit he’s universalist.... for example “Rob chapter six of your book describes the reconciliation of all things, many people will read passages such as sheep/goats or i am the way the truth etc... and then read your chapter and be confused, how do you approach that with your audience?” ... much better question than leading with rob are you a universalist... the former rob reply’s and then the guest replys to rob and the interview moves on and explores the premise of the book.... been doing this a long time and justin knows this wasn’t his best stuff... he’s interviewed rob before and went fine structure wise... i know what rob was doing but i also know what justin failed to do... which way you line up on the issue isnt really relevant to my point... rob wasn’t offering much and when he started to do so justin moved away from the substance... he doesn’t usually do that .
Dennis Leveridge rob is getting double teamed the whole time what do you expect? imagine defending your stance when two people with opposing views are feeding off each other’s energy and also controlling the ebb and flow of the conversation
Nail jello to the wall! I love your points! Thank you!
I’m Jewish and I was never threatened with Hell or enticed by Heaven. An Evangelical Christian asked me if I was going to. Heaven or Hell. I didn’t know if Jews believed Hell existed.
Rob Bell seems to be a subjectivist about everything. Disagree with him and he'll ask "But do you know that?" implying that you're arrogant and wrong(objectively?) to do so. Ask him if he thinks everyone will be saved and he'll ask "But don't you want that?" implying that you don't and are therefore coldhearted and that wanting it to be true somehow makes it so. It must be a miserable existence to think the only knowable truth is that those who don't accommodate your feelings are wrong and mean.
tchristian04 Such a good summation! 👏🏼👍🏼 well done
He didn’t seem to stick to his guns in several points but I think he’s onto something.
As clear as some think, or wish the subject of "hell" is... there is a ton that is debatable and is NOT clear at all! Rob throws out GREAT and legitimate questions! Also, to say he is subjective about everything is not legitimate. He totally affirms a ton of fundamental evangelic orthodoxy. The fact is that there are clear things and not clear things in the Bible. The subject discussed here is a very non clear one. It is also not a salvic question. If a person is unsure about the precise nature of hell, or does not get it right, does NOT disqualify them from eternal God's love! I know of no one who is 100% clear or certain on its precise nature.
Mark Metternich Photography, LLC Jesus wasn’t certain of the nature of hell?
@@tchristian04 Of course He was. But what God knows, compared to humans is not the question at hand. What he has and has not revealed about its precise nature is what is being considered.
Around 31:00 when Adrian mentioned no known passages of repentance after death, I would ask why does scripture mention Jesus preaching to the dead? Seems the answer Adrian keeps asking about the people that think "ah, I can do whatever I want, nothing bad will happen in the end" is answered in 1 Peter 4:1-6 "Therefore, since Christ suffered in his body, arm yourselves also with the same attitude, because whoever suffers in the body is done with sin. As a result, they do not live the rest of their earthly lives for evil human desires, but rather for the will of God. For you have spent enough time in the past doing what pagans choose to do -living in debauchery, lust, drunkenness', orgies and detestable idolatry. They are surprised that you do not join them in their reckless, wild living, and they heap abuse on you. But they will have to give account to him who is ready to judge the living and the dead. For this is the reason the gospel was preached even to those who are now dead, so that they might be judged according to human standards (bodily death) in regard to the body (flesh, sin, evil nature) but live according to God in regard to the spirit."
You cannot live in the spirit until the flesh has died, which is the Judgement of God, Christ hanging on the tree, to crucify the flesh, and this good news preached to the dead brings spiritual life according to Peter. It seems that the one who is ready to judge the living and the dead judges the living for reward of faithfulness, and the judgement on the wicked is hearing the gospel and receiving spiritual life. Having to "give an account" is like telling your whole life story, the real story. ..all your decisions and the motives behind them. When most hit a rock bottom in their lives, they finally confess and feel the weight of their actions being brought to light. What Christ always offers is forgiveness which I feel like Rob made a pretty clear point with his answers concerning punishment for the dude cheating and in debt. That same forgiveness is offered through the same Christ who preaches to the dead. What good news could God in Christ possibly bring to those held in the prison of Death?
Hosea 13:14-14:4 I will ransom them from the power of Sheol (the grave, hell); I will redeem them from Death. Where, O, death, are your plagues? O grave, is your destruction? "I will have no compassion, even though he thrives among his brothers. An east wind from the LORD will come, blowing from the desert; his spring will fall and his well dry up. His storehouse will be plundered of all its treasures. The people of Samaria must bear their guilt, because they have rebelled against their God. They will fall by the sword; their little ones dashed to the ground, their pregnant women ripped open."
Return, Israel, to the LORD your God. Your sins have been your downfall! Take the words with you and return to the LORD. Say to him: "forgive all our sins and graciously receive us, so that we may offer your our praises. Assyria cannot save us; we will not mount warhorses. We will never say again 'Our Gods' to what our own hands have made, for in your the fatherless find compassion. "I will heal their waywardness and love them freely, for my anger has turned away from them.
Why on Earth doesn't Rob just cite a passage from Scripture that ties it all together, perhaps this one:
For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
Romans 14:11
I'd say this sums it up, no?
Sure it sums it up as long as you ignore ALL of the rest of scripture, which illustrates the meaning of that verse..... which is exactly the opposite of what Bell and his blind worshippers believe it means.
Demons bow the knee and confess that Jesus is God. What is your point?
He would say this means that everyone gets saved and that any other meaning is taken out of context
38:29 this is the concept I could never accept as a Christian. That a loving god would send people to Hell for eternity. Once I let myself question that doctrine, I started questioning all of it. And now I'm free from all of it.
God doesn't send people to hell. We choose it and he accepts our choice. Why does he allow it? Because what he desires is love. We can only love with free will. Without free will, we couldn't choose to love. With that same free will, we choose to either accept salvation that is freely given, or reject it. When we reject it, we are choosing separation from God. Separation from God is hell. Our choice has eternal consequence. God has offered you a free gift. You don't have to earn it. You just need to open it and accept it. He doesn't send you to hell, but he accepts the decision that you have made with the free will that he has given you.
@@tonygutermuth9347 yeah, I know the "free will" excuse. I don't buy it. It's a way to make your monster God seem okay. Anyone who uses the "free will" justification hasn't really thought it through.
@@MikeLeonard OK, so "think it through" then. I presented somewhat of a systematic "if this, then that" theology if you will. Saying that I haven't thought it through while not presenting any logic for your position kinda looks like you haven't actually thought it through. The bottom line is that you reject God because you don't like the idea of justice. You would rather have a God that looks the other way while you make yourself God, or at least while you ignore the gifts that he has given you. A permissive God that accepts sin and looks the other way wouldn't be righteous. So, instead, God is holy and just. He realizes that sin must have consequences or he isn't a good father. But instead of hitting you with both barrels and damning you to eternity without him, he gives you a way out through his son. All you have to do is accept, and you are in his grace. You can't accept god because you attribute to him what you bring upon yourself.
@@tonygutermuth9347 Is there free will in Heaven? But no sin. So if God can create a state where there is free will but no sin, why bother making the one with sin? Also, how fucked up is that a "maximally powerful" being is willing to send billions to eternal torment just have some people "choose" to love him? The "free will make the sin" only works when you're in it and have to believe it. Once on you're on the outside, you can see how messed up it is. Have fun with that.
Well, Jesus taught about hell. Read about Lazurus and the rich man. Jesus spoke of hell and eternal punishment more than about heaven. God is love, but God is also JUST. His righteousness and holiness cannot allow evil in heaven and hell was initially only there for the devil and his rebellious angels. Because you do not believe in hell, the devil has already deceived you.
So if "forever" in hell is not really forever, then what about forever in heaven? Do we also need to fear that we may not be in heaven forever? Could we "fall out" of heaven at some point just like the angels did? If you can change your mind in hell, is it not possible to change your mind in heaven? If it is possible to save in hell, is it possible to be lost in heaven? Seams to me as soon as you question the meaning of "forever", you have to grant this possibility!
Forever can mean a space of time and by extension perpetuity so some could argue Heaven is literal forever he’ll is nonliteral but I think you make a good point. I would fear God while in Heaven because perfect angels lost that fear and rebelled so how is rebellion when perfect impossible going forward. Free will and knowledge of good and evil is still there
Where do you think the Bible teaches being in heaven for ever? I would say no where!
Rob is so good. This discussion/debate is needed as well. The living Bible is meant to be discussed and not swallowed whole. These convos are exactly how the message was spread from the jump.
Both men get a tip o’ the cap. I lean towards Rob’s view rather than the potentially weaponizing view of Adrian.
You really really should have Bart Erhman on to talk about his latest book, Heaven and Hell, after airing this.
Yes, of course, a great book!
It’s so tiring when people like Rob Bell play silly word games and just answer questions with questions. It’s clear there is a separation. What does Paul say? If you do x y and z you WILL NOT inherit the kingdom of God. Period. There’s no get out clause after this age is over.
Bell has always been this frustrating, he makes truth claims in print then won't stick to them when pressed. we can know for certain. jesus preached hell more than anyone in the Bible
“Jesus preached hell more than anyone else in the Bible.”
And? That’s not news to advocates for Christ-mediated universalism. Read Talbott’s work (eg second edition of “Inescapable Love if God” and his chapters in the 2003 volume “Universal Salvation? The Current Debate” edited by Parry and Partridge), David Bentley Hart, Robin Parry’s book “The Evangelical Universalist” (under pseudonyms Gregory MacDonald), etc
@@TheProdigalMeowMeowMeowReturns The belief that everyone is going to Heaven. It is one of the most damaging ideas in modern times because it removes the necessary sense of urgency in earnestly seeking our salvation - Watered down Christianity does not speak much about Hell. It does not warn souls of the danger they face -"If men only know what awaits them in eternity, they would do everything in their power to amend their lives" - "Among adults there are few saved because of sins of the flesh.... With the exception of those who die in childhood, most men will be damned"
@@jotunman627 Why is there an exception made for those who die in childhood?
Jotun, I’ve been studying this debate since 2003. This promise you that the case is much stronger than you or Bell could articulate.
Hell, I’ll send you 100 dollars if you can summarize half of Reitan’a arguments, or Robin Parry’s, or Talbott’s
meow meow meow
Atheists study for years to still conclude there is no God. Because they start with a false worldview. Scholarly research does not guarantee one to be right. We can spend years reinterpreting bible verses, when a child can read the words of scripture declaring hell as a reality and know the truth.
What's a link to the video that caused so much angst?
They should ask the fallen angles if he’ll is forever, the demons asked Jesus “have you come to torment us before our time”, remember the demons asked Jesus to inhabit the pigs, rather to be cast into the abyss. These men know not , the terror of the lord!
How can you ask a demon anything
nathan mckenzie If you recall Jesus talked to the demon who named himself Legion, for we are many !
David Scholfield what kind of abstract nonsense, is this!
@@dh1335 I recall a story about a guy, mo evidence any of that happened
"A clear reading of scripture?" Understanding Christians like Rob scare the hell into bibliolotars. To say their is one clear reading is a misunderstanding of what a text is. The Bible tells you what God wants you to understand ever time you read it informed ny the Holy Spirit. Believing in the Bible is not Christianity, knowing God's son Christ Jesus crucified is.
Is there any chance you could get David Bentley Hart on for a conversation about this topic?
Or Thomas Talbott!
It appears that the two British interviewers have been blue pilled, and are so close minded that they cannot see the forest through the trees. Thank God for people like Rob Bell who are waking up and making a statement of truth. We are all in different places a different times, some people can’t or will not hear truth. I should know I used to be one of them, that is to say someone to not hear something new that is truth. Look what they did to Jesus, he was changing the whole program and you saw what they wanted to do with him. 57:09
What is unclear about Rob's response is that he doesn't clear about the type of Hell he espouses - an eternal punishment Hell or as purgatorial, refining, purifying and 2nd chance Hell?
Notice nobody is arguing about eternity when it comes to heaven
🧐 good point
Yeah, I like your point! Reminds me of the legend about Lucifer choosing to leave heaven. Doesn't shake your faith in love, though, or does it?
That is because Good is always greater than evil, which is disordered love, disordered will.
Wow I must say..I watched this is 2013, and felt very much on the ‘side’ of the hosts. But now my 30 year old self is watching in some disbelief at the hostility and narrow mindedness of these questions. To think that people actually think that God will eternally punish a finite being for an infantile amount if time, is just sad. Rob displayed such grace, humility and courage. I may not agree with all his views but you can’t doubt that ‘God is Love’ - 1 John
I don't understand when the bible says thrown into the lake of fire for eternity??? People think they can subtract or add to the bible JUST to make themselves feel good. Revelation even warns of this. These type of people Jesus stated they were luke warm and he will spit them out. Hell is real and Jesus even said that MOST PEOPLE will go to Hell especially when he stated it's easier for a Camel to go through an eye of the needle than for a Rich man to get to Heaven. God Bless
So you interpret lukewarm as someone who is able to see some time durations as nonliteral? Lukewarm means sinful and carnal sir. Jonah was in the belly of the whale forever according to the Bible and yet got out in three days. By your logic, anybody who believes he did not stay in the whale forever literally is lukewarm and heading for hell
@@ajaxslamgoody9736 revelation is a spiritual book…we can not pick and choose what is literal and what is a spiritual metaphor…if the lake of fire is literal then so is everything else mentioned in that book, including the dragon. In the very first chapter of revelation it says these things are signified meaning they are symbols…If God condemned the act of burning people alive to Moloch and Baal…the. he most certainly condemns the teaching of eternal conscious torment.
I am really interested in Bell's view of purgatory, because I have felt like he describes that more then hell.
@Marianne Havisham Yea I know, neither is the Trinity. It's a doctrine that is held by the Catholic Church. I don't really understand what your response is about. My initial post is about what Bell's view of Purgatory would be because the way he talks about Hell seems to fit more of the Catholic view of Purgatory then the typically understanding of what the Bible saids about Hell.
@Marianne Havisham So a few thoughts to your last few responses:
So I have been part of a number of denominations myself, the Catholic Church (8 Years), a Non-Denominational Church (6 Years), and most recently the Wesleyan Church (6 Years). So I have done myself a fair amount of work trying to understand the differences between the Catholics and the Protestants.
The Trinity is a universal Christian belief across denominations, but it is a doctrine in the sense that it is our Theological attempt to make sense of how God interacts with himself. There is no where in the Bible itself that directly states anything about a trinity, but it is our universal understanding of the nature of God.
Likewise, while the belief in Purgatory is unique to the Catholic Church it is similar to other doctrines. It is not directly stated in the Bible but it's the Catholic Church's attempt at trying to understand what the Bible has to say about life after death, salvation, and the spiritual realm.
Now the Biblical defense for Trinity Theology is really easy to do which is why it became a universal belief, the Biblical defense for Purgatory is much harder which is why only some Christians believe in it.
@@timsmith9503 Do you personally believe the Bible supports there being a purgatory? If so, can you share some scriptures with me you believe point to this?
@@joshuaWEC No I don't personally believe in purgatory I just think it would be interesting to hear what Rob Bell's thoughts on that topic would be.
Regardless of who's right or wrong, I'm pretty sure in a debate the moderator/host isn't supposed to sit on one side and take turns going after the other side. This is so set up with attempted gotchas. I'm only a few minutes in and even though I'm interested in the subject I really don't want to endure any more! Rob very gracious despite the grinning vitriol sitting side-by-side at the other end of the studio.
Interesting conversation, so why would a God of love, grace, and mercy create a place called Hell only to send us to it for not being perfect. I believe he'll was made up by people who need a sin nature. I also believe Jesus wasn't talking about a literal hell but Gehanna and what happened about 70AD. And finally I believe we create our own hell on earth by the way we live. Just saying. David
I wish that the host allowed more dialogue between the two men. It seemed clear to me when the other guy pushed Rob against the wall and it was getting "hot" in a good way so we could finally hear clear "yes/"no" from Rob, but then the host UNECESARILY stopped this a few times, which made me upset. Now we're left wondering about certain things do Rob believe and teach them or not. Wasted opportunity. :(
Everyone seems to think that Bell is making objective claims about universalism, but that's not the case. Bell never sought out to make any objective claims in the first place, he only says that our traditional view of hell may not be the certain truth, and then presents other alternative theory's.
Just because he believes that universalism or annihilationism could be the truth, doesn't mean he believes that it IS the truth.
He is clearly agnostic on the concept of hell, and while he makes it evident that he has a preference for universalism being true, that doesn't make him a universalist. He is only asking open ended questions.
Well said. I agree
People laughed at Jesus too, even called him Satan, so there you go nothing new. Rob is a great Christian.
agreed, preaching truth and what I believe is what Jesus intended
Jesus didn't deny the faith. Rob has. Rob is not a Christian. I pray he turns from sin and puts his trust in Christ. He has strayed even farther today than he did in this video. He now claims that Jesus never called himself God. The Bible says that if someone says this they are an antichrist.
Rob is delusional.
People laughed at Harold Camping. Being laughed at isn't evidence that a person is telling the truth.
What about the scripture that says, It is appointed to a man once to die and then the judgement That seems pretty final to me.
Bell makes me want to be a Christian.
Warnock reminds me of why I no longer can.
You forgot to add the word "fake" before the word Christian.
@@Vevay1961 I don’t have any investment in the question of Bell’s Christianity, but he does seem to fall within the historic bounds of orthodoxy for what it’s worth.
@@Vevay1961says the European 😂
Why would anyone even begin to think that if we don't choose or follow Christ in this life that we would not change our mind in the next life? That is totally absurd. We cannot see and hear and make the best decisions in this life. We see, hear and know in part, like through a glass dimly. I think the obvious is that when we cross over into the heavenly realm EVERY SINGLE PERSON WILL REPENT. What I mean by this is that we will all (believer, non-believer, young, old, etc.) will change the way we think (which is what repentance is) because we will be able to see things that we didn't see in our earthly life. So if we believers can change the way we think as we see so much more than we could before, why could not and would not non-believers also change that way they think. Also I don't think there are any scriptures that negate the possibility of post mortem repentance.
this seems to be a conflict between a european view of christianity and a rabbinic one. europeans value falsifiable propositions and rabbis argue about things endlessly with no clear answer in view.
And now that we have a clear view (Jesus Christ) we don’t have to argue endlessly.
Unfortunately, with so many thousands of different denominations worldwide it feels like Christians are arguing and disagreeing more than ever
Rob Bell is basing his thoughts on scriptures, but unlike most commenters, he takes a scholarly approach. He is studying not only modern versions but also the original Hebrew and Greek texts, as well as an understanding of the 1st century audience, based upon Hebrew writings of the day, to get a more nuanced understanding of the scriptures. The scriptures were written from an Eastern perspective, which is very different from our modern Western perspective. I just finished Love Wins and I find it to be very thought-provoking and helpful for me to gain a better understanding of The Bible.
In Acts 17:11we are called to imitate the Bereans: "Now the Berean Jews were of more noble character than those in Thessalonica, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true." We are meant to wrestle with the scripture, because it is NOT black and white! We are not called to be able to parrot whatever our pastors say, but to work out our the truth.
Rob is trying to have an intellectual and imaginative conversation about the Christ while these guys are asking him what tactical and earthly labels of Christianity that he believes in.....the conversation almost got cool when Rob asked them questions yet they completely didn't answer them and focused of making him answer their questions and pulling what they thought were his emotions out of the questions he asked...trying to label him was all this was about and it bored me to watch.
They were unwilling to openly answer because the answers would expose their folly
53:53 Pretty good summary of what “the tradition,” has been…
Man Adrian is seriously out of his depth... his reading of the Parable of the rich man is so ridiculously off. There is nothing there that suggests the "heaven and hell" is dependent on belief in Christ. And then he totally contradict himself with the "all things" thing. These fundies also pick and choose what words to take at face value, but they accuse others (like Rob Bell) of not reading scripture faithfully. It's nonsense.
I don't understand Fundamentalism. I spent a lifetime trying. And I went crazy.
You did not listen to what he was saying, and the rich man and lazarus is not talking about heaven and hell, it is talking about hades and paradise.
This is also why rob doesn't understand the text, because he mistakes paradise for heaven. Paradise was in the underworld until the resurrection of Christ, it was where the Old testament saints went. When Christ descended into the earth in the three days that His Body was in the grave He went and ministered to the spirits in the underworld and to set the saints who were in paradise free and they rose from the dead with Him and appeared to many in Jerusalem according to the Scriptures. That was The First Resurrection. He took them with to Heaven, and paradise is eiter empty now, or it has become a part of the rest of hades
I don't know if Bell is correct. I've been looking into what the Bible is actually trying to teach us about hell. Sin is serious for sure that's why Jesus had to suffer and die as He did. I don't think you have to believe in enteral torment to want to repent. I know when I came to Christ I was just so overwhelmingly sorry for sinning against someone who, I finally realized had loved me so much. This was after hearing a sermon about Christ suffering on the cross. I can't say I was afraid of hell, or punishment. I knew I deserved punishment though, but didn't have to live under it because of love.
As I've read the Bible it seems to be a story about God never giving up on us. "Father forgive them." was said about he people who knew the scriptures and had met God in the flesh and still hated Him. If Jesus is that patient for the ones who should have had no excuse, how much more patient is He for the rest of humanity?
We should want to know what is true, not worry about being called a Liberal or not an Evangelical. That was weird how they kept bringing that up. They quote read from someone labeling it "Liberalism" seems like a using a buzz word to dismiss something.
Also, quoting Time magazine? come on, do they decide what's Evangelical? Also, Time is always gonna be over dramatic about anything they think is gonna divide Christians. That's nothing new.
Still a fantastic conversation this many years later. I'm fairy conservative in my theology, but I love listening to Rob Bell. His questions strike deeply at many things we simply assume because we've grown up our entire lives hearing it. He makes me think even more deeply about my convictions, especially on this topic.
Which conversation were listening to? Mr Rob Bell avoided all the genuine questions ask of him. He does not seem to understand the topic at hand. Did he really write the book?
@@danieljones2048 Rob Bell was the only one answering questions. When the conversation finally got to the literature, Rob cited the verses and meaning of words that led him to his understanding, and Adrianne just went back to his bullying. "You can't be in the evangelical club if you don't believe like I do." and "aren't you worried what ppl will think of you if you ask questions?"
God bless you all........❤👍
Love can change everyone's heart so there is no reason anyone would have too go too.hell
"And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death *and hell* were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death." (Rev. 20: 13-14)
how does anyone conclude from this, that hell is the eternal punishment?
Slithering is the word that comes to mind
Rob quoted Hebrews but forgot the last sentence, that God is consuming fire!
I'm just 9 minutes in and Rob is clearly deflecting. This seems like a performance to him, rather than a conversation. His body language is very odd.
When Warnock hits a great point about Jesus in Psalm 2, showing Jesus is both loving and wrathful, look at his response: 35:39, dead silence for 6 seconds, looking to Justin to move to the next question.
I imagine if Rob had just smoked pot for the first time and his Christian friends asked about it directly, this is how he would respond.
Rob's Christian Friends: "Rob, did you smoke pot?"
Rob: "Do you want to smoke pot?"
Rob's Christian Friends: "Ok, maybe, but as Christians, there's a pretty clear message that we need to be sober...."
Rob: "How do you define 'sober'? Aren't there so many ways we can all be "not sober"? Jesus didn't die and rise so we could just be "sober".
Rob's Christian Friends: "Yes, true, but let's look at it another way, what good could possibly come from smoking pot, as a Christian?"
Rob: "Yes! That's my question, too! I desperately want to believe that maybe there is something good about it. Maybe all the unbelievers who like it know something special that can amplify the Christian experience!"
This is not what a pastor does. That's what Satan did.
"Did God really say you can't eat from any tree?" - Overhyped straw-manning of God's commands.
"No, you will certainly not die!" - Flat out lie.
"In fact, God knows that when you eat it your eyes will be opened and you will be like God, knowing Good and evil." - True, but dismissing the rest of the story.
43:58 - There is 2 views that I know of to how a sinner can be punished for eternity.
1. The sin is against an eternal God so that punishment is eternal.
2. The sin is punished, however, the sinner continues to sin in hell because hell is a place where the full rebellion against God continues. The punishment is eternal because the sinners who will be living in hell for eternity will continue to sin again God in eternity and therefore getting the just punishment for eternity. After the sinner dies, they will remain forever a slave to sin and continue to sin again God eternally and would never want to repent.
Regardless of whichever view one believes, the bible is clear the punishment is eternal (forever) in hell. It is also clear that God is just and will punish the sinner justly, nothing more and nothing less.
Justin is such an excellent host .
So discovered a few years ago now, so refreshing, freeing from some of the religious Christian beliefs.
I am a follower of Christ and actually feel more free now after reading and listening to Rob Bell, who is on tour in the UK this year. I've got my ticket.
a follower of Christ but a listener of Rob Bell... dangerous stuff.. listen to Jesus, who is the true son of God, even from before the world began.
It's an interesting debate. You know, many of us were raised with a kind of southern California hippie version of Jesus as this laid-back, all-forgiving guy. That is the version many people want to believe. It's certainly a lot more fun and implicitly provides a greater latitude to think and behave in ways that are morally questionable. However, if one reads the Gospels objectively, you are immediately struck by how forceful Jesus is in many of his condemnations. Far from the mellow pacifist, He is, in fact, highly divisive and provocative in many of the things He does and says. One of the things He seems particularly contemptuous of is those who, in their pride and self-delusion, seem to believe they already have heaven in the bag. In fact, it could be argued that his belief in the salvation of sinners arises from his knowledge that they lack such blinding pride, and because of that, are open to redemption.
Rob Bell is obviously a decent bloke trying to hang on to his faith when the scriptures of that faith clearly talk about eternal torture... a one size fits all punishment where people who don't sign up to a specific religion/doctrine burn alongside child murders for ever and ever. Can you imagine if christians truly thought this to be true? Can you imagine what psychopaths they would have to be to proclaim love to the leader just because they had been chosen for freedom? It's like pretending to love Hitler because you are safe as a non-jew but eternally worse.
1. Eternal Conscious Torment
2. Conditional Immortality
3. Trinitarian Restorationism
Which best represents God is Love?
Rob is right. We have misunderstood the terms 'aion', 'aionion' and 'aionios'. They were incorrectly translated into latin as 'aeternum' which gives off the impression of neverending. This translation error is central to the discussion. His questions about this and the correspondent hebrew term 'olam' werent answered. Yet he was being accused of not taking scripture seriously. I would suggest hes taken scripture seriously enough to come to understand this and that it warrants further exploration rather than just condemning him and others because it goes against the perceived tradition. The question about the meaning of 'all things' was far from satisfactory also which again warrants further study and thought from those who insist on labelling people as heretics for holding to a more coherent view of Gods ultimate loving purposes through judgement.
Rob Bell should just say, "Yes, I believe people can be redeemed out of hell!"" CS Lewis touched on this in "The Great Divorce", Martin Luther allowed for the possibility of post-death conversion to Christ, and as Richard Rohr says, "We have created a monster god" through a monstrous interpretation of scripture, which scares people (sometimes into repentance, sometimes into disgust for the church as a whole).
I have watched many interviews with people who have had near-death experiences, and some of those people visited hell, only briefly, as a a kind of forewarning of where sin can lead. Some of them explained that just being there they were able to understand that the souls there could really leave hell any time they wanted simply by embracing God,.
I was reading a Catholic apologetics book recently and the author basically said that people who wind up in hell will be so attached to their sin that they won't want God. The "worms" and "fire" are symbolic for unfulfillment, pain, suffering, deceit, and violence, none of which will be present in Heaven with God.
@@KingdomCitizen1988 Well, I guess that the same can be seen here on earth...take, for example, a cartel member who lives fully embracing violence and killing, it would be safe to say that they literally have no thought nor desire for living an ethical life when they are fully immersed in that way of living. That to me is analageous to the hell dweller
Exactly, and not only a hell dweller but a hell creator. They spread hell to other people through misery and fear
quoting Richard Rohr says a lot
Rob Bell demostró un conocimiento muy por encima de sus críticos y se ve en su espíritu de paz como en su dominio del contexto bíblico.
I think three things need to be discussed to understand this, the nature of God, the nature of humanity and the nature of hell. Only understanding these three things together gives us an accurate picture.
Yet, two of these may be abstract, you think?
Rob did not directly answer a single question. Why even interview??
Is there nothing to be learned by pondering the answers to good questions? If one is prompted to assess what Scripture says, then they are asked to go to Scripture for the answer. Can Rob answer better than Scripture? Would his answers really be better than his questions?
Nicholas Whitmire, Proclaimer Of Messiah
Rob obviously had answers to all the questions. He just didn’t want to articulate them fully, I saw him only seeking to verify himself as still being a “Christian”(in the scheme of western evangelicalism). I respect his searching of truth and challenging of presuppositions of western evangelical thought/doctrine, it’s something all disciples of Christ need to assess for themselves. But when pressed for his answer regarding universalism, eternal punishment, and Hell- he gave absolutely no clarity. He just turned the question on the questioner, is he afraid of his own answer? Is he convinced of his own searching? It seems like Rob in his inquiry of studies metaphorically opened up a “can of worms” that if were to be true, would shift the entire paradigm of Christianity, and force it to venture off into theological territories unknown. This is exactly what he keeps pressing, but when questioned directly he’d rather spiel orthodoxy then challenge the questioner. Is he afraid to be known for what he actually believes? Personally, his avoidance was extremely frustrating.
@@peteryang2067 There was a time when the pagan doctrine of Hel was new to Christianity, but what Scripture teaches is the original. Rob is clearly rather agnostic on some of these details, and he doesn't fully understand how Scripture teaches regarding life, death, and identity; so he did his best. Rob also decided to let God and Scripture articulate his perspective, rather than be accused of going against Scripture, so he asked questions about God and Scripture to let Scripture speak.
Rob couldn't directly answer because of his agnostic perspective on the points, there is no single dogmatic answer for him, can't give what doesn't exist. If he could've given direct answers, then come the accusations of going against God and Scripture, then would come the questions about what Scripture says; seems like cutting to the chase meant they covered far more ground in an hour.
Nicholas Whitmire, Proclaimer Of Messiah
Well said, I agree.
He should have just had the dialogue, because honestly, I DONT REALLY WANNA READ THE BOOK lol.
Oh well
@@peteryang2067 Exactly my response. Excruciatingly frustrating.
If one doesn’t have to believe in hell, why would you? It’s such a despicable and amoral concept. If you can’t be a universalist, at least be an annihilationist.
It doesn't matter what WE believe! It matters what God's word teaches. We can have constant shifts on our beliefs, but God and His word is constant and never changes. He is the same yesterday today and tomorrow.
@@bobbysmith855 if hell exists, it ought to be empty, otherwise god is evil.
@@teachpeace3750 How do you work that out?
@@bobbysmith855 I don’t have to, that’s God’s responsibility. I created my children and I can tell you two things for certain: 1. I love them unconditionally. 2. I would never let them be tortured no matter what they did or who they became.
@@teachpeace3750 If one of your children murdered the other would you expect them to suffer a consequence?
Interesting discussion points.
Ironically a direct answer would be an incorrect answer due to pre-conceived ideas and boxes of the listener... encourages me to do my own background research
Romans 8:38-39
Psalm 139:8
1peter ch4:6
Matthew 19:26
These seem to say that Hell isn't the end for All.
Rob keeps going on about how the word for "eternal" in Greek doesn't really mean eternal - but it seems that this only applies when talking about Hell. What about Heaven, then? Adrian quoted a verse in which the same word is used to describe the duration of both Heaven and Hell - Apparently Heaven isn't forever either, then, Rob? What is God going to do with us after Heaven is over? How confused is that? Rob's answers are disingenuous and soaked with bias based upon fleeting emotions, in my opinion. To agree with his views, one has to ignore half of what Jesus actually teaches, with cheap sellouts like "but the story is filled with unrealistic pictures! Jesus is speaking on a totally different topic, if we look at the context of Jewish culture and tradition blah blablablah blah..." May God be a shield to you, people who listen to this guy. Dangerous talk, especially when the person speaking is that skilled in rhetorics.
no rob was about to address that eon of heaven but the moderator jumped in very quickly to move away from the greek.... first century context certainly does matter and what rob was proposing was and is completely relevant to any biblical scholarship study, something andrew didnt seem to grasp,,,
@@thoughtmocker I never heard him attempt to explain why the same term was used for the duration of Heaven as for Hell. If you know what he was about to say, please enlighten me.
Though it should be said that if he were to try to explain that one away, I can't imagine the explanation being of much worth. The same word was used twice in the same sentence, thus the meaning would remain the same, or else the sentence would be profusely misleading and incompetently put together. I do not view God's Word in that way.
Furthermore, I don't think it scholarly to shrug off elements of a story/allegory/ etc. told by Jesus because it seems "unrealistic" or whatever word Rob used. This is not about the verse I mentioned above, but the story about Lazarus and the rich man. He strays from the text, and looks at what Jesus "probably adressed" instead of what was literally told by Him. I prefer never to stray away from the text.
To clearify, I didn't mean to say that looking at the historical context etc of the Scriptures is something we shouldn't do. I just hear it used way too often as an excuse / grounds for misleading people from the obvious interpreration of certain texts in order to push an agenda. Like people are currently doing regarding LGBTQ-related issues.
From the very first time I came across Rob Bell, I've known him to be very evasive and vague when questioned on what he believes about hell...its very boring listening to him
@chris monk... well you had a lot to say there and i’ll stay away from jumping into the weeds which is actually needed on this topic... like matt said we may not want to hear such a harsh message but that doesn’t mean it’s true... the same holds for eon ... rob is right about that word and yes heaven may not be forever as we wld describe it either... many dont hv enough guts to state that for obvious implications but none the less... may not like to hear it but that’s what it means... not sure if you read greek but it sounds like you don’t... id advise to take a beginners course in it... it is very fascinating once you understand the difficulties it can have in translating it.... there are still many greek words in the manuscripts that are untranslatable or ambiguous at best .... i understand why rob can be frustrating to talk too n in my prev post i explained exactly what he was doing in the first half of that interview... he was playing defensive chess... answering a question with a question (like jesus did many times) so as to see what den he was walking into.... again i dont think it was just him... justin usually runs a much tighter interview... this one got away from him.... i like justin and i like rob , first time being introduced to the other guy... doesn’t matter rob doesnt address the church anymore anyways and never will i dont think ...
That word is exactly translated "as-aeon" meaning: having the quality of aeon. This is the case 100% of the time, so if you want to hear the Scripture correctly apply the correct definition every time. Life as-aeon. But, let me ask some helpful questions:
What does John ch11 teach about life and death?
What does the New Testament teach about being dead in sins?
What does it mean to be freed from marriage to sin through death in Christ?
What does it mean to be baptized into Christ's death?
Are these teachings about reality?
Are these teachings true?
Have you been taking the word "death" in it's proper context in Scripture?
"As in Adam all die, in the same manner, in Christ are all made alive, but every in his own order. Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are His at His coming, then the end when He shall have delivered up the Kingdom to God even the Father; when He shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
Because He must reign, until He has put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed, death."
- God's Scripture
In what way do all die in Adam? Are all made alive in Christ in the same way? Are those two "all"s the same "all"? Is the wide gate to destruction referring to those who think they've found the gate? How many people find the way to life? Is eternal conscience torture the doctrine of many or few? Are many correct or few correct? If we are eternally cut-short (pruned like a tree), does that mean eternal torture? If we are eternally tested for purity, does that mean eternal torture? Do you know what "torment" means in the Greek? Do you know what "blasphemy" means in plain English? Blasphemy means vilification, to blaspheme is to vilify.
Are you attached by ego to the doctrine learned by tradition of men? If the Scripture teaches differently than the tradition, will you trust God's Scripture?
I think the severity of the church's reaction, in those days, towards Rob much outweighed the severity of what he was actually saying. With exception to "Unbelievable?", they did a fair job. Rob asked great questions and made great points that weren't really being asked and talked about very much in the days of 2005-11 and he brought them to the forefront. It wouldn't surprise me in the least bit if the church's reaction to him is a major factor as to why Rob is not a Christian anymore. It could only have served as encouragement to him to keep moving in the direction he was going and away from where the lashing out was coming from.
Rob bell isn't a Christian anymore?
@@troywright359 He is still a Christian, I don't know where the commenter got that idea from.
Rob Bell doesn't have answers to questions that are put to him. Instead he asks questions in response. This is not only not clever. It's a sign that he doesn't know what he thinks or should think.
I’m not trying to be smart here.... in my observation and limited understanding of what I read in scripture when Jesus is asked on issues that the Pharisees and Seduces brought up.... didn’t He answer their questions with asking questions?
@@stephaniem895 Are you saying that someone who replies to questions with questions of their own should never be suspected of not being able to answer the question because Jesus answered questions with questions? If so, how could anyone distinguish between someone who knows the answer but likes to mimic Jesus and someone who is unable to articulate his position such that others can understand it?
It is very much Jewish tradition, that even Jesus followed, to absolutely answer a question with a question. This requires the student to work and dig through what he believes and in the long run is a better, fuller answer for the student as opposed to the teacher just giving an answer. Give someone a fish dinner and he is thankful. Teach someone how to fish and when they put forth the struggle, catch and prepare the meal, they are more fully satisfied and better prepared for the future. A very good teacher doesn’t usually just give you the answer but rather gives you the tools to find the answer.
I feel like so much is lost in conversations like this because of Ego. Instead of being about the ideas, its about "What does Rob Bell believe". It becomes personality cultish. Rob bell is one human of billions of humans, on one planet of trillions of planets. I think that a detachment from ego and what "I" believe would lead to a focus on the ideas themselves
Rob has a seething type of attitude, giving a sense of wanting to give tradition the finger. The way Rob turns the discussion back on the one asking and acts almost ignorant and yet in a very confident way, I get this strong impression of a smug, annoyed individual who has to endure morons. No matter how much Rob acts like he is solidly Biblical, the interview is run through with Rob as the arbiter of what is and is not true.
So in your view the other two act as though they aren’t arbitors based on their current understanding of scripture? Name a teacher that doesn’t represent confidence in their understanding of scripture if that were possible
Repent and accept Jesus as Lord!
To answer Rob's question at 31:02, yes it's possible to live in this world and you have no hope of salvation once God gives you over to your desires and you believe at lie. He must read Romans 1.
To question the nature of what "hell" is, does not make someone not evangelical!!!
As clear as some think, or wish the subject is... there is a ton that is debatable and is NOT clear about it! Rob throws out GREAT and legitimate questions.
That maybe so, but on the other hand, if he want new readers and thinkers to get to know him and his way of being in the world, he really needs to answer. At least som of rhe questions.
Stormy You might want to listen back on the interview because he did answer some of the questions. He believes in the bodily resurrection of Jesus Christ. And he answered some other questions. When it comes to religion, far too often people want to pigeonhole you and label you so that they can instantly discount you and brand you as a heretic instead of actually grappling with and fully looking at the subject matter. I think he did an outstanding job of not being manipulated. And leaving a little bit of mystery about his ultimate belief doesn’t bug me one bit. Makes me want to read his book again, or watch some more interviews.
40:03 -- "We don't use one word to mean two different things in the same sentence." We don't? Example: "The bronze age was replaced by the iron age." Is "age" in that sentence the same length of time in both instances? Of course not. I don't believe in eternal life because Matt 25.46 says aionion (age long) life. I believe in eternal life because Paul tells us we will be given immortal bodies (1 Cor. 15.53). How long is aionion punishment? What is the purpose of that punishment?
Re: eternal damnation - the gift of salvation is eternal life... the wages of sin is death... so is there "eternal" damnation and suffering for sinners?
You should look into the Biblical case for eternal non-existence, i.e. conditional immortality.
I am a nonbeliever, but I believe the bible says in John 3:16 that: that whosoever believeth in him should not PERISH, BUT have EVERLASTING LIFE. It does not say: that whosoever believeth in him will go to heaven and, if not, go to hell. PERISH means kaput, gone, dead, no longer existing. So, it seems some will be dead forever and some to the gift of EVERLASTING LIFE. I, myself, do not even want to live forever, as that would be horrible in never being able to remove myself from existing.
One more thing, I think the religious organizations are having to change their view on hell, as this is one reason why the churches are failing and people leave. I actually heard a woman say that the reason she left the christian church and become a Jehovah's Witness was because of the hell doctrine. I am a nonbeliever, but I think a loving god would not let someone stay in a hell forever.
It is beyond the power of the human mind to estimate the evil which has been wrought by the heresy of eternal torment. The religion of the Bible, full of love and goodness, and abounding in compassion, is darkened by superstition and clothed with terror. When we consider in what false colors Satan has painted the character of God, can we wonder that our merciful Creator is feared, dreaded, and even hated? The appalling views of God which have spread over the world from the teachings of the pulpit have made thousands, yes, millions, of skeptics and infidels.
-- Ellen G. White, The Great Controversy, p. 536
To make it worse you could combine eternal torment with determinism aka mainstream Calvinism. This is a carricature of a loving god.
I'm curious if Justin has had any movement on this topic due to his conversations with N.T. Wright. Wright speaks with many eastern Orthodox who also don't have a vision of TCH. The point isn't to get your ticket punched but to help with the new creation process.
Agree with Adrian on all the issues, not Rob. I do sympathise with Rob over how horrible he finds the idea of eternal punishment in Hell. I find it horrible as well, and I believe in it.
For those listening maybe also tune in to Brad Jerzak ex Evangelical pastor now Eastern Orthodox. Check out their understanding on this subject called Apokatastasis. Rob here mirrors Jesus's experience with the Pharisees who relied on theological tradition. What Rob is saying here is restoring the unique truth of Jesus reconciling ALL of creation to Himself and defeating ALL sin and death. For those who denied and crucified Him then and those down the ages Jesus spoke to the Father while on the cross..."Father FORGIVE them (and have mercy) for they know not what they do. The wrath of God...the consequences of our sin while on earth! The narrow path...the few who genuinely experience the peace and rest in the Kingdom of God in the here and now. God's justice that needs to be satisfied...Jesus cleared the ledger. We can go on and on and please remember that Jesus was a man and not yet the risen Lord, and all His parables was simply rhetoric to prompt those listening to seek the reality and benefits of God's Kingdom in their midst. Yes if we are to take His parables as hard and fast doctrines of truth we should also be gouging out eyes and chopping of hands when we ogle at women and steal etc. Literal interpretation that Protestant Fundamentalism has promoted since the late 18th century has been a major stumbling block to those genuinely seeking Christ centred spirituality. That, and institutionalism it's bent for control it's ego fuelled hypocrisy etc etc no wonder the church "buildings" are now coffee, arts and craft and second hand book shops. Thank God for the likes of Rob Bell, Richard Rohr, Paul Young
Brian McLaren so called progressive heretics by those indoctrinated by generations of Protestantism. They have been a blessing for all those who love and FOLLOW (not religious Christianity) Jesus and are willing to be transformed into His likeness. If I could find a fellowship like Spero Dei in Melbourne I would I'm sure be welcomed to not only talk the talk but also walk the walk. Shalom to all who love Jesus and welcome the authority of the H.S. ❤️
Rob bell says “help someone find salvation...” he is a universalist so what is salvation to him?it is not Gods will that any should perish, I believe that! It ALL STARTS with the fact that we are all lost and condemned, the Messiah came to draw ALL men to the Father, but people reject that offer, sadly. So those who reject Gods offer of deliverance, what God forces them to come? Some kind of reverse irresistible grace. First it is not scriptural, second its nonsensical!
I have never seen Rob claim that he was a universalist. I think he allows it to be a mystery so that people will concentrate on the topic and not on him. I love the questions he asks in his book. They’re very powerful and they demand answers. What they do is they blow away paradigms that many of us have been taught our whole life. You may not get all the answers but you might get more questions and that’s OK if that is what has been revealed in scripture. People always want answers clean and cut. But there’s many subjects that are not.
Mark Metternich Photography, LLC I didn’t have questions after I read the book. It was clear from his perspective “love wins”. He defines that very clearly that God wins ALL humans in the end analysis, and if anyone goes to hell then Godbis a loser! If you didn’t clearly get that from reading his book than reread it.
I feel like Rob is coming from this from a 'bigger picture' angle. So he emphasizes what's the most important way to engage with the man on the street who has these questions.
But the other two are coming from a place of "ok yes we know what's the most important thing to emphasize for new Christians, we know some mysteries are left to God, but this specific issue of Hell is what we're here to discuss as it ties in somewhat with the Gospel message."
Rob is here to discuss, but I think the others were expecting a friendly debate.