Mark Anderson Because you cannot be mercifull, and a perfect judge if you just let people off for their sins. Where is the atonement for the sin? People are guilty, Jesus was not, and so made a perfect willing atonement for the sins of the guilty. To understand the crucifixtion you need to ask yourself some questions.... How would God deal with sin? How would God show mercy and forgive sins when doing one would count out the other side of his character? Would God become fallable if he forgave sin with no atonement? Bear in mind you`re dealing with a God that is perfect in mercy,love and justice so how does that God deal with sin without punishing anyone and mantaining those attributes?/ it can`t be done, unless you can think of another way?... That is why nobody saw it coming , why nobody could ever have guessed God would do it and wondered how redemption was even possible. The Cross was not just essential to man`s redemption, it was GENUIS on God`s part.
I've gone to church my WHOLE life. I have been to Baptist, Church of Christ, Nazarene, Pentecostal, and Assembly of God. The one thing they had in common: They all thought THEY were right and everyone else was WRONG. This guy makes the most sense of ANY of them. I think he's basically just saying that it's not about who's right and who's wrong, it's about the love of GOD. That is so incredibly refreshing.
And you are being responsible by labeling Rob Bell a heretic?? A man who has given his life to serve God and the body of Christ and the world. I and many are immensely blessed and challenged to go deeper in our life with Yeshua by this man's ministry. Rob is only voicing the questions that many who are real with their faith are asking.
Rob Bell is awesome! This issue of hell as a place of conscious eternal torment has driven untold thousands of people away from even considering the God of Israel. More often than not hell is referred to as a place of perishing and destruction. God is a consuming fire. The punishment will be eternal, not the punishing. Big difference! The language of the Bible demands we look at this critical issue with open minds and open hearts.
1 - again, you are making a statement that cannot be supported.. "he does not see the Bible as it really is" - you have failed to prove this and therefore the rest of your judgment falls flat 2 - "hell" is too vague. Do you mean Gehenna, hades, sheol, or the "lake of fire"? All very different things, which unfortunately have been translated or understood as "hell" at one time or another. Most people's view of "Hell" today is rooted in a medieval notion drawn largely from Dante's Inferno
I have seen him much maligned in recent times but I think he is seriously onto it in many ways. I admire his courage for taking the flak and sticking to his guns. He is on the right track.
John 30-32 30 Jesus answered and said, “This voice has come not for My sake, but for your sakes. 31 Now judgment is upon this world [cosmos, “world order”], now the ruler of this world will be cast out. 32 And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.” ALL MEN…if we think otherwise then we call God a liar.
When John and James wanted to call fire down on the Samaritans' heads because they did not believe Jesus was the Son of God, who did Jesus condemn, His disciples or the Samaritans for not believing the gospel directly from the apostles' own mouth? (Luke9:55-56) Dear Christian, think! These Samaritans, who knew the Law of Moses, rejected disciples who personally knew Jesus AND rejected Jesus Himself. Why didn't Jesus do what the typical modern evangelist do, condemn them to Hell because they didn't "decide to follow Jesus," they "didn't give their hearts to the Lord." According to the modern traditional gospel, these Samaritans were given the chance to go to heaven but they rejected the way. Yet Jesus didn't condemn them - He condemned His own disciples for behaving the way the typical Christian behaves today. Jesus came to save the world, not just a part of it. If He succeeded, then He could rightfully be called the "Savior of the world." But if He failed, then not only could He not claim that title, He could not be the Messiah because He would have failed in the mission of the Messiah.
What? Them requesting that had nothing to do with not believing in or follow Christ. When we are told the anti christ will deceive MANY with peace, "He will destroy many with peace." and have Jesus saying, "When they say peace and safety, then comes sudden destruction." You will reject it, for peace and safety, with this false Christ, who will allow you to believe whatever you want, as long as it's part of the new world order. Peace for everyone. Jesus said, "Do not think I come in peace, I come with a sword."
nagol5178 Thank you for your comment. It was a great reminder of the reason why I left the church, churchianity and all its foolish theologies. Because the good book suffers more from its exponents than it does by its opponents.
There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love. 1 John 4:18 So if you hear an preaching that causes fear-for example the Endtimes- then you know something is wrong and you can ask questions! Go on and read the New Testament for yourself, start with Romans and go on with Ephesians. Read it as a whole and not as chapters. Truly you will see things that preachers never told you :) Go on an adventure!
You are welcome to a new life of testimony, I pray that whatever you seek, you will receive it this year, you will be the first person to testify to the goodness of the Almighty, wherever you are favors will locate you , and you never run out of blessings in your life, so when I was on your profile last night the Lord gave me a revelation that this month the world is going to celebrate with you, you are going to be greater than what you think , and with that I saw the hand of the enemy, which tries to withhold your blessings and the Lord asked me to tell you that you should give a wonderful gift, which means you must sow a wonderful seed to the children of the ophanage to found motherless children and also ask the motherless children for prayers in your life that you may get that greatest testimony to come to you, contact the MD of (DIEVINE BLESSED OPHANAGE HO ME FOUNDA TION) somewhere in Madrid Spain its full seed to sow a miracle me for them its the seed of break up within two days be sure to whatsapp them and send them a wonderful gift see wonderful from your families , also don't forget to ask for the prayers of the ophanage children in your life, also let me know so i can join hands in prayers whatsapp the MD now (+34632260131) you are blessed...
You are welcome to a new life of testimony, I pray that whatever you seek, you will receive it this year, you will be the first person to testify to the goodness of the Almighty, wherever you are, favors you will locate, and you never run out of blessings in your life, so when I was on your profile last night the Lord gave me a revelation that this month the world is going to celebrate with you, you are going to be more greater than what you think , and with that I saw the hand of the enemy, which is trying to withhold your blessings and the Lord asked me to tell you that you should give a wonderful gift, which means you must sow a wonderful seed to the children of the ophanage to found motherless children and also asked the motherless children for prayers in your life so that you may obtain that greater testimony to come to you, contact the MD of ( CHRISTIAN GOD BLESSED OPHANAGE HO ME FOUNDATION) somewhere in nigeria in the city state of benin its full seed to sow a miracle for m e its the seed of break up within two days be sure to whatsapp them and send them a wonderful gift see wonderful from your families, also don't forget to ask for the prayers of the children of the ophanage in your life, also inform me so that I can join hands in prayers whatsapp the MD now (+34632260131) you you are blessed.
"Rejects Christ" Really? Have you listened to a word Bell said? On the other hand, Paul said death and hades were defeated. That God would be ALL in ALL again. That in Christ ALL were made alive who were made dead (mortal) by Adam (not just a few lucky enough to make the right decision. But until one can stop reducing the gospel to "hell avoidance", it is hard to grasp these higher thoughts, and that God has a plan for the AGES, not just this age and we're done.
If believing in the God Rob Bell believes in sends me to hell then I'll be the first person to sign up. I just can't wrap my head around everyone bashing him.
+DRUMMERJAYable Fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom .Also Christ taught us not to fear man ( because they can only destroy the body) but instead He taught us to fear Him ( IE God) who, after killing the body has the additional power to throw us into Hell !
+TheHumbuckerboy Would you have a different view of God if your knew that the translation was actually reverence and Awe of the lord is the beginning of wisdom? Because it does!
Oh dear, its seems you church has deceived you because Jesus used the word Gehenna, not the word hell. it was a fiery dump just outside of Jerusalem back in Jesus day,. where the criminals and paupers bodies were tossed. But today its a beautiful park! To a 1st century Jew, Jesus words meant dont waste your life away, doing nothing! You have been duped into believing a kiddie pool doctrine!
you can make that verse into anything you want. The sound doctrine could be the message of unconditional love and the law of liberty - which self righteous people dont like quite frankly, then they will go to self righteous doctrine which their itching ears want to hear. So I wouldn't quickly pull that verse out of the hat, also remember 1 Timothy 4:10 says that "God is the Savior of all mankind, especially of believers" .. my my Timothy what the hell did you just say?!
1 - Your straw man is that Bell rejects Christ. He does not, and you have not proven he does. 2 - Bell is not claiming that there is any other way to the Father except through Christ. So, I don't see either of your proof texts as being applicable here. On the contrary, John 6:44 proves that all will eventually know Christ, as Jesus says elsewhere that if He be lifted up He would draw (lit. drag) ALL men to himself.
Go ye in through the strait gate, because wide is the gate, and broad the way that is leading to the destruction, and many are those going in through it; how strait is the gate, and compressed the way that is leading to the life, and few are those finding it!
What bible are you all reading?? You are playing a dangerous game with Gods Word... Jeremiah 7:20 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, mine anger and my fury shall be poured out upon this place, upon man, and upon beast, and upon the trees of the field, and upon the fruit of the ground; and it shall burn, and shall not be quenched.
Bells's first sentence in this clip says it all. God is about RESTORATION, not RETRIBUTIION. Until your heart can truly believe that, you will continue to miss the real message of the word. What is God REALLY like? A Father? A Shepherd? Or a slave-driver, executioner, and torturer? Answer this question correctly and you are on the right track.
my question is Why does one have an issue with the wide embrace of Christ? What is in us that we would want to reject this exclusivity?? It think it may tell more about us then them...
"Condemned", by the way, means "render negative judgment" - judgment defined by the Divine Law, nowhere in which is torture condoned. On the contrary - the spirit of the Law is restitution, making what is wrong right again.
" For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear."--2Tim 4:3
2:56 Just because Jesus flipped incorrect 1st century Jewish religious thinking on its head does not mean present-day biblical thinking about who's in or out is wrong. This is fallacious. Rob would say Jesus corrected the Jewish religious understanding of who was "in" and who was "out." And he did. "I am the way the truth and the life," Jesus said, "no man comes to the Father except through me." Becoming "in" depends on accepting Jesus. So, today, if we accept the categories of "in" or "out" that Jesus identifies, we can be sure we are right, because it is on the authority of Jesus. So we can boldly preach salvation through Christ alone, to the exclusion of all other ways. Something could be said about our inability to judge the genuineness of someone's profession of faith in Christ, but if someone rejects Christ...he has lost all hope of eternal life, that much is clear.
You are welcome to a new life of testimony, I pray that whatever you seek, you will receive it this year, you will be the first person to testify to the goodness of the Almighty, wherever you are favors will locate you , and you never run out of blessings in your life, so when I was on your profile last night the Lord gave me a revelation that this month the world is going to celebrate with you, you are going to be greater than what you think , and with that I saw the hand of the enemy, which tries to withhold your blessings and the Lord asked me to tell you that you should give a wonderful gift, which means you must sow a wonderful seed to the children of the ophanage to found motherless children and also ask the motherless children for prayers in your life that you may get that greatest testimony to come to you, contact the MD of (DIEVINE BLESSED OPHANAGE HO ME FOUNDA TION) somewhere in Madrid Spain its full seed to sow a miracle me for them its the seed of break up within two days be sure to whatsapp them and send them a wonderful gift see wonderful from your families , also don't forget to ask for the prayers of the ophanage children in your life, also let me know so i can join hands in prayers whatsapp the MD now (+34632260131) you are blessed...
How do you deal with Matthew 7:13-14 and your wideness of the way to God? Matthew 7:13-14 “Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it. 14 “For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it. ???
The whole streets of gold thing always sounded dull to me, but better than spending eternity with pitchforks being stuck in my tush. This was when I was a child. Now I have a greater understanding of the fallen nature and of the Love that has never left us.
A very interesting perspective. I personally liek to give this one: If you walked into a church with the desire in your heart that all men find Christ, you'd be called compassionate, caring, and a person with a heart after God. "Do you believe it will happen though?" they will ask. If you say "Yes", you're a hieratic, deciever, and a person who twists God's Truth.
What a twisted sense of salvation. Are you saying if there was no hell you wouldn't be a Christian?? "Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent." "The people walking in darkness have seen a great light...they rejoice before you as people rejoice at the harvest" "I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly"
Interesting thing about Rob's loudest and most obnoxious critics are how the thought of having to spend eternity with them sounds like pure hell to me.
Rob Bell is correct! People are way too quick to judge and assume they know God and His Word. Satan is the monster. He lies and steals and destroys. ""Which of you men, if you had one hundred sheep, and lost one of them, wouldn't leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one that was lost, until he found it? " God will make a way for all men to know Him. With God all things are possible.
hmmm. not totally following you, but suffice to say people have proof-texted their position over centuries and we still have no consensus. So, you might consider giving a little grace to those who disagree with you.
At best that shows annihilationism in Paul, not eternal torment. But merely citing a passage doesn't mean anything, because now you've shown there are contradictions in Paul's own thinking on the matter; the other texts I cited are undeniable affirmations of universalism. Do we leave the contradictions or do we harmonize? And if the latter, why not reinterpret saving the universalist texts, rather than using the apparent hell texts as a limit? Why preserve the hell texts rather than the others?
Romans 8: For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God. for the creation was subjected to futility not of its own will, but because of Him who subjected it in hope (epis=expectation) that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God.
+Shana Brown " the creation" being spoken of (in Romans 8) that has the " anxious longing" and that " waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God " seems to be referring to God's animal creation .
The argument has been made that if God revealed himself to us, we would be so overwhelmed by his wonderfulness that we could not help but choose him. In that situation--it's been argued--we would be denied our free will and God wants us to freely choose him. If we had the opportunity to know God--and if he were as wonderful as the clergy claim--then we would all freely choose God. That makes perfect sense, and that WOULD BE a free choice because--of course--it's so obvious. Why would anyone make any other decision? The reason people don't choose the Christian god is because he is invisible, unknowable, his message is as obscure and confusing as a sooth sayer's prophecy from Delphi. Everyone interprets Bible passages differently and there is no rock-solid criteria to determine which interpretation is correct. Down through the ages there have been billions of religions. How is anyone supposed to sort through all that and determine which one is the true religion? The task is impossible. For God to withhold knowledge of himself and allow us to make our decision based on error then condemn us for making a mistake and calling that free choice is a lie. For God to play such despicable semantic games proves his dishonesty and evil intent. OR by demonstrating his duplicity he proves his imperfection which stands as evidence that God is not God. He is the invention of an imperfect human, which means: God is not real. He doesn't exist.
always was and will be forever more...when our hear happens, it is revealed...As we are true to ourselves not religion or someone else's God or path, ...there we are, in Christ and the Cristo's in us..Very expansion, a radical transformational redemption, consisting of violent faith and the integrity for the spirit.
Believing in Hell in no religion is required to be taken to Heaven. So, what is so bad about him? Because he hurts your feelings because he says something that you aren't used to. If you want to see true evil, I suggest you all look inside your ind and how you feel about this man, whom still loves God and Jesus, who happens to have a different view than you about what truly is a trivial matter. If you only do good because you are afraid of Hell, you are not a good person. He does good without the fear of Hell. That's what a good person is. Just some thoughts, with an unbiased view.
He loves the God he created in his own mind. Throwing Gods righteous judgement out the window because he is trying to be relevant. Pleasing man and not God.
And you know this based on a personal relationship with Bell? Or because you want him to be that way, so you can argue against him, and be oaky with it,
Matthew Damonze Lol. So, do you and every other Christian on this planet believe the same thing? Do you interpret scripture the same as every other Christian? And if not, are the Christians that don't see things the way you see them all going to hell?
This man is very intelligent. He starts at the very root of Christianity. Preachers like John MacArthur & popular Calvinists have a root that starts at St. Augustine. Their theology derives from Gnosticism. Most Protestant theology starts with 5th century Manichean Gnosticism (both Calvinists and Arminians(but arminians go back and correct some). I have videos that discuss all of this. There is a reason why Rob Bell wrote on sex and Hell. Because, these were the errors of St Augustine.
Godrules Fascinating! Thanks, I have to look this up. I’ve been studying these matters my whole life (preacher’s son) and I haven’t come across that Root analysis. More power to ya!
Rob Bell frightens the hell peddlers and damn preachers because he speaks of a God of Grace who seeks to redeem the world - and not just them. When Jesus called out the pharisees of his day and challenged the Powers and Principalities it cost him the Cross. Rob Bell will only get the scorn of hypocrites. The world has made some progress, but the hypocrites still rule.
Truly, the law of Love (true judgment) does indeed lead to salvation (liberation). Yet one who was in a very literal hell, Corrie Ten-Boom, knew the truth of: "There is no pit that God is not deeper still". These words have always blest and encouraged me. I pray they do the same for you.
Ok, so I like that concept, however, according to the bible there are some who will rebel after the establishment of Jesus as our king, how do you account for them, the armies of Gog and Magog for example. Now remember, I am not a bible worshipper so i believe in the fallible text, that some could be altered/added. By your description, those who are raised from death will still have the opportunity to live in the Millenium or work off their debt correct? I would like your take on this.
This is great message. I would ask a simple question in context of parent. For example if your son or daughter walkied up to you and refused your advice and ways as a child would you punish them for all eternity ( or age ) if you said no then you are in truth saying that you are abundantly more mercyfull than GOd the Father. I am pursuaded that God is mercy and love and will redeem the world and all in it.
We are not God and equating our roles as parent as analogous to God the Father, and His holiness and righteousness judgment and condemnation of sin is blasphemy. Please read your Bible and repent of your sins.
@@jesseharper7172 Actually, begin at the beginning of the bible. God said "let us create mankind in our image, male and female" which means we are to live and act in the ways that God intended. So, by your logic (or lack of), you would be suggesting that if your child doesn't listen to you then as God's image-bearers we are required to punish our children infinitely for their finite act of disobedience. I would encourage you to read your bible, my friend. We aren't equal to God, but we bear His image. If using the analogy of God as a Parent and us as parents is blasphemous, you'd be calling Jesus a blasphemer...or haven't you read the story in Luke 15 about the compassionate father, and his prodigal son...where we're supposed to learn the lesson of how to forgive in the same way the father does.
please. show me where there is a list and ranking of sin. I have read every verse of the Bible a few times and done research and written commentaries on several of its books and have never found this scale of which you speak. Nor have I found a place where Jesus would have thought lying to your government to be worse than lying to a child
You're absolutely right! In John 14:6, Jesus Himself makes it clear that He is the Way, the Truth and the Life and noone comes to the Father but through Him. This means that even being a good person and doing such "religious" things as going to church, singing in the choir and so-on, will by no means get you to Heaven. It is only by repenting of your sins and putting your complete trust in His perfect life, His death on that old rugged cross for the forgiveness of your sins and His bodily resurrection from the dead for your justification.
" For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son that whosoever believes in him shall not perish but have everlasting life" (John 3:16). All Christians believe that this says exactly what it means and it means exactly what it says. Where's the disagreement among christians?
Jose Santiago Well, the council of Nicaea tells us that Christians from the beginning disagreed with what "begotten" meant so no, we didn't always agree. What is everlasting life? When does it begin? What does it mean to "not perish"? What does it mean to believe? Also there is this thing called the rest of the Bible that says other things.... haha...There is a reason why there are so many denominations....
Dan Lee The fool says in his heart, “There is no God.” (Psalm14:1). What I notice about people who don't want to accept the sound doctrine of the Bible is that they have a dark secret sin they do not want to repent of. Fess up and repent. By the way begotten means one and only Son. Jesus is the one and only Son of God.
Jose Santiago But John 3:16 wasn't written in the first 70-100 years. How did someone go to heaven before Paul was converted? Remember, the APOSTLES' days , the church was the strongest? Ah, the APOSTLES CREED'. Where did ROB BELL violate the APOSTLES CREED Jose?
GENTLEMAN FOR LIFE ALso, the people who wrote the NEW TESTAMENTS actually have a doctrine and a church. FROM day 1, there's no such thing as "THE BIBLE". There was no BIBLE until 397 AD "Council of Carthage" where "CATHOLIC BISHOPS" approved the 73 books BIBLE. Our faith was about church teachings. If you read the 73 books BIBLE , it has the book of 1st & 2nd Maccabees which asked you to pray for the dead.
GENTLEMAN FOR LIFE Also, if you use the 66 books BIBLE, by default you are saying "MARTIN LUTHER" is the will of GOD. No one but him who approves that book, it didn't come out of thin air. The Gutenberg BIBLE is 73 books, the first King James is 73 books, the majority of the world is 73 books, and we should ask "WHAT IS THE BIBLE" before we have the right to start quoting it. THE DIDACHE and the early church teach a "NATURE OF GOD" that matches ROB BELL. In America, evangelicals fired all the messengers of GOD so they get to do the interpretation, then fight among themselves with denominations because everyone wants to be GOD. BUT IN THE EARLY CHURCH, what did ROB BELL teaches that violates the "APOSTLES' CREED"??
We Japanese people has also recognized that the same kind of God who teaches us to be kind, generous and honest to others and be humble to each other, to love your kids and your family, etc. was very similar to what those Christians tried to teach among our ancestors.... and still we have to tell that unless we believe in Christ, we are all heading to hell, apart from God...is that reasonable?
People that are saying that their view on hell and eternal conscience torment is what the scriptures teach need to do a lot more studying. It is just not that cut and dry. Look at church history as well as scripture. Greater, more competent godly men have debated this for years before we were even born. And don't use the the cop out argument that Jesus taught that some would burn forever. Are you completely sure that is what he meant? Study the scriptures and listen to what others are saying and then prayerfully consider what to believe. Don't just swallow the teachings of your past. Use your God-given brain. Or don't use your brain. If we werent supposed to think then god would not of created us that way.
+Jordan Wendt For the living know that they will die, but the dead do not know anything; they have no further reward--and even the memory of them disappears. ..ecclesiastes
Jesus Christ was "born under the Law, to Redeem those who were under the Law." {GAL4:4-5} Jesus Christ came first to restore the ancient Hebrew people, then the Gentiles..."I was not sent except to the lost sheep of Yasaral." {MATT15:24}. Jesus Christ taught the apostles, disciples, and Hebrew people the bedrock of everything we do or think has to be based on Love, or it will come to nothing. Christ transitioned the Hebrew people from the Old Covenant into the New Covenant, which is based on Love, and is Spiritual; what is within is what is important. The gentile Believers, who were grafted into the New Covenant by Christ's Sacrifice and the shedding of His Blood, were taught by apostle Paul that unless you have Love, you have nothing. Jesus Christ taught that "If you love Me, you will keep My Commandments." Jesus Christ tells us "And you shall love Yahuah Father the Almighty with all your heart, and with all your mind, and with all your strength. This is the first Command. And the second, like it, is this, You shall love your neighbor as yourself. There is no Commands greater than these." {MARK12:30-31} Again in JOHN13:34-35 Jesus Christ teaches His apostles and disciples "A new Command I give to you, that you love one another, as I have loved you; that you also love one another. By this shall all know that you are My disciples, if you love one another." Apostle Paul teaches what love is in 1COR13. "Love is patient, Love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the Truth. It always protects, always Trusts, always Hopes, always perseveres. Love never fails. And now three remain: Faith, Hope, and Love, but the greatest of these is Love." Apostle Peter teaches us that "Above all, keep loving one another earnestly, since Love covers a multitude of sins." {1PET4:8} The Commandment of Love was also taught in the Old Commandment. "A friend Loves at all times, and a brother is born for adversity." {PRO17:17} "King David and Jonathan had a Love like this as described in 1SAM18:1. As soon as he had finished speaking to Saul, the soul of Jonathan was knit to the soul of David, and Jonathan Loved him as his own soul." Our Heavenly Father is Love. Jesus Christ, the Great I AM in the flesh, that walked the earth 2000 years ago, is Agape Love. When we truly understand the depth of Jesus Christ's Love for us, the price He paid for us, and we truly understand Yahuah Father's Holiness, Faithfulness, and Mercy for us, we can see that all that come to Him, will be forgiven and accepted by Him. We are all Redeemed. Some will come first and some will come last, but when our soul leaves our physical body at our death here on earth, and stands before Him, His Pure Light and Pure Love will overwhelm and overcome all. All will bend their knee in reverential fear, and all will know Him instantly. Do we really believe that our Heavenly Father will leave us in everlasting torment in a place called 'hell'? We as Believers are responsible to get the correct translation of the word 'hell', and let go of our man-made doctrines and traditions, that are incompatible with the Word. Do we really think that someone, using as an example, any one of our Presidents here in the USA, that profess to be Christians and go to church on Sunday; that they will be in Heaven, and a humble, decent, honest, loving person that goes the extra mile for his family and friends, in India or Sudan or in Paraguay, that has never heard the Gospel of Jesus Christ, because of no fault of their own, will be automatically sent to 'hell' for eternity, by our Redeemer and Saviour? I think not. That is not what Jesus Christ and the apostles taught, nor what the Gospels and the Epistles say, and that is not why Jesus Christ came to earth. Jesus Christ died, Resurrected, and Ascended in to Heaven for ALL.
I don't know but I just assume all are going to be w/ god after they die & be restored or introduced to loving relationship w/ him & others. & I think I am experiencing gods presents and protection from my own self b/c I am sober and relatively sane tonight. This is one of the few things that are advantageous about being an alkie & a drug addict & mentally ill: I know god loves me b/c he provides practical help to me every day just like it says in the bible & ,tho I am tempted, I don't have to speak for him.
Sharon Peters I agree with you. Because of man-made doctrines that we have all been taught, we think that at our physical death, all is over, when in reality life begins when our soul & Spirit is released from our physical body. We also do not have the full comprehension of who Christ Jesus is and why He came to planet earth, and why He did what He did in order to establish a New Covenant with us. The Creator of the Universe is Almighty and can't be contained in man-made doctrines. I agree that those that did not restore their relationship with our Heavenly Father while on earth will still be Loved by Him at their physical death, and will be introduced to Him, and to a Loving relationship with Him, through the Door, which is Christ Jesus. How it all will be, no one knows, because so much correct information has been suppressed and man-made doctrines taught instead. We do know in His Word that He wants that no one perish, not one. Guess we will have to see how it all plays out at the end of our lives. :) I personally believe it will be the most beautiful experience of all. And yes our Heavenly Father's Kingdom is here and now, and we are in its midst. Christ Jesus is in our temple - our heart, mind, soul, and Spirit.....He is within us and His Spirit in our heart. Our Heavenly Father and Christ Jesus are here; within us and all around us. He told us He would never forsake us or leave us; He is Faithful, Merciful, and the depth of His Love for us is incomprehensible to the human mind. He is with us every step of the way, for sure sister! :)
The gentiles Paul and the disciples were preaching to were either Greek converts to Judaism or the elect diaspora, grafted-in descendants of the tribes of Israel who had been dispersed amonst the nations. Throught the ministryof the disciple's great commission, they were called out from the nations to again be the holy nation of kings and priests, to be sealed for the day of redemption, which they lived to see. Nobody today is a gentile of the that sort.
Rob Bell studied what the original audience would have understood. We have to review a lot of our medieval and perhaps flawed interpretations passed on to us. Are you willing to open up the discussion or are you afraid?
God is a just Judge, no unrepentant sinner will go unpunished. Love is calling all to repentant and ask for forgiveness because we deserve hell punishment. Christ died so that we no longer have to be under the wrath of God but rather to be saved from it. Those who reject the gospel of repentance and regenaration will have to face their choice. The narrow road is not walked by many..the broad way appeals because one does not have to deal with self, sin, pride etc. Literal hell and heaven exhist..
You are naive. The same scriptures teach that "the mystery of [God's] will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ" is "to bring unity to all things in heaven and on earth under Christ" (Eph 1:9-10); that " in Christ all will be made alive" and "God may be all in all" (1 Cor 15:22, 28); that "just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people" (Rom 5:18). Why do you ignore this testimony?
Amen! Amen! Amen! What cracks me up is that certain people will be disappointed when they find out there’s not eternal hell and torture. Even though we are instructed in the Bible not to judge others, we’ve put on judges robes and condemned others when that is God’s responsibility, not ours.
If there is no hell then why do i need a savior? If I can live my life however I want then why do I need forgiveness? Why do I need church, why do I need a pastor?
1 John 2: 15Do not love the world nor the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. 16For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh and the lust of the eyes and the boastful pride of life, is not from the Father, but is from the world. 17The world is passing away, and also its lusts; but the one who does the will of God lives forever.
Juast a bit of what the word of God says about "this place". 2 Peter 3:10-13 King James Version (KJV) 10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
I didn't really take it that way, that he felt people were below him, just that we all need to learn to laugh at ourselves a little, because we're not the bigshots saving the day, Jesus is :-)
You have no reason to deny the universality of "all" in the texts I cited, apart from blind adherence to your inherited tradition. The Rom 5 text is especially clear on this matter. And I already addressed the meaning of "eternal" in the gospel texts -- it is qualitative rather than quantitative. And this New Jerusalem also has gates that never close! Interesting! Are people leaving or coming in? And how will be thrown into this literal lake of fire, do tell? Where is death and is he flammable?
You can't get around Jesus talking about Hell in Matthew 41-43 41“Then the King will turn to those on the left and say, ‘Away with you, you cursed ones, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his demons.g 42For I was hungry, and you didn’t feed me. I was thirsty, and you didn’t give me a drink. 43I was a stranger, and you didn’t invite me into your home. I was naked, and you didn’t give me clothing. I was sick and in prison, and you didn’t visit me.’
Parables are not meant to be taken literally. And actually the place is more like the Greek concept of Hades than the (much later) Western Christian view of hell.
But at best, taking that route, you have left the verses from the Pauline corpus in contradiction with what Jesus says. There are other possible dialectical maneuvers: why not adopt a different interpretation of those passages from the gospels (which are few, anyway)? For instance, some offer a qualitative rather than quantitative rendering of "eternal", and understand "eternal punishment" to mean the punishment associated with his coming/inauguration of his kingdom, rather than unending.
The two are closely related issues: if universalism is true, then there is no eternal damnation; and perhaps if there is no eternal damnation (whether this damnation consists in annihilation or punishment), then universalism would seem to be true. But in any case, I'd like you to answer the question from my previous post.
It says in 2 Cor.4:4 in greek: "god of this age", so instead of "world" it should be "age" as in many other places in NT, and it was translated wrong, I have no clue why...
For those of you who believe in hell as a place of unending torment, I challenge you. Is it God's love and mercy that drew you to Him? Is that what keeps you close to Him? Could you present the Gospel to someone without the threat of hell? Try it. For God so loved the world!!!
The truth is that you can't make your own Bible. There is only one Bible, which is God's true, written Word and if you go on trying to make it say what you want it to say, you're in a world of trouble, because in Revelation 22:18-19, we are warned that if anyone adds to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take his part out of the book of life and out of the holy city and from the things that are written in this book. So, whatever you do, never, never mess around with God's Word.
This is not the gospel of Jesus Christ, this is new age, Helena Blavatsky Theosophy. The opening of the third eye of consciousnesses. Yea,.....third eye???? More like opening your soul to demons. The message of Jesus Christ calls all men to repent and turn completely from their sins and life. To be saved and rescued from the lake of fire, because that is our eternal destination, For all have sin and fallen short of the glory of God, and; the penalty of sin is death. When the Apostle Paul speaks of this death, he is speaking of the true death, which is the casting of our soul into the lake of fire. But then he says: For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:23. That means we are destined to hell fire, but because of repentance we have inherited eternal life. And also Lord Jesus reminds us in Rev 3:11; I am coming quickly; hold fast what you have, so that no one will take your crown. NO ONE TAKE YOUR CROWN. That means you can lose what you have received, that means you have to daily go before the Father, seeking His face continually because you can lose yourself and salvation in this world. This is man is just preaching love, love and love and forgets that scripture also teaches us that when Jesus returns His day is a terrible day. It is not an easy day. He forgets that God is also a consuming fire. All love and no wrath is heresy.
Mat_25:41 "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. Rev 14:9-11 "If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, he also will drink the wine of God's wrath, poured full strength into the cup of his anger, and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name." Rev 20:15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire. Rev 21:8 But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death." Mar 9:42-48 "Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him if a great millstone were hung around his neck and he were thrown into the sea. And if your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than with two hands to go to hell, to the unquenchable fire. And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life lame than with two feet to be thrown into hell.And if your eye causes you to sin, tear it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into hell, 'where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.'
Ungodly people your soul is in the balance where God is concerned. These verses speaks very serious consequences. Act 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;Act 3:20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:Act 3:21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.Act 3:22 For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you.Act 3:23 And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.Act 3:24 Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days.Act 3:25 Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.Act 3:26 Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities. Jhn 3:35 The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.Jhn 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. 2Th 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 2Th 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:2Th 2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. 1Pe 4:15 But let none of you suffer as a murderer, or as a thief, or as an evildoer, or as a busybody in other men's matters. 1Pe 4:16 Yet if any man suffer as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf. 1Pe 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God? 1Pe 4:18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?1Pe 4:19 Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator. 1Th 5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. 1Th 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.1Th 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.1Th 5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.1Th 5:5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.1Th 5:6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.1Th 5:7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.1Th 5:8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.1Th 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,1Th 5:10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.
So the Bible talking about a new Heaven and a new Earth...? (As in Revelations 21, "Then I saw 'a new heaven and a new earth,' for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea").
Mt 7: 18-19 "A sound tree cannot bear bad fruit than a bad tree can bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire." How does one bear good fruit ? By doing good works !! 21-23 "None of those who cry out 'Lord, Lord' will enter the kingdom of God, but ONLY the one who DOES the Will of My Father in Heaven". "... When that day comes,any will say 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your Name? Have we not exorcised demons by it's power? Did we not do many miracles in Your Name as well? Then I will declare to them solemnly 'I never knew you. Out of my sight you evildoers !'"
You are welcome to a new life of testimony, I pray that whatever you seek, you will receive it this year, you will be the first person to testify to the goodness of the Almighty, wherever you are favors will locate you , and you never run out of blessings in your life, so when I was on your profile last night the Lord gave me a revelation that this month the world is going to celebrate with you, you are going to be greater than what you think , and with that I saw the hand of the enemy, which tries to withhold your blessings and the Lord asked me to tell you that you should give a wonderful gift, which means you must sow a wonderful seed to the children of the ophanage to found motherless children and also ask the motherless children for prayers in your life that you may get that greatest testimony to come to you, contact the MD of (DIEVINE BLESSED OPHANAGE HO ME FOUNDA TION) somewhere in Madrid Spain its full seed to sow a miracle me for them its the seed of break up within two days be sure to whatsapp them and send them a wonderful gift see wonderful from your families , also don't forget to ask for the prayers of the ophanage children in your life, also let me know so i can join hands in prayers whatsapp the MD now (+34632260131) you are blessed....
I would like to ask Rob what happened to the other thief on the cross, because I don't see where Jesus said today you guys will be with me in paradise.
There are many people who will not repent, no matter what - thus will not have a part of the new creation. Pride is the enemy of repentance. Interestingly in Revelation 20, all the wicked dead are resurrected, and wage war in their billions to storm and pillage the Holy City. Then God finally decides enough is enough and wipes them out with fire and brimstone. But even though it seems so from Rev 20:10 no eternal torment even for Satan (Ezekiel 28:12-19). Eternal Torment is false doctrine, but there is even less support for Universalism.
But a man can be anointed with the holy spirit and spread that spirit to others! His lampstand burns with a fire that spreads to other lampstands. Carry the torch, spread love and generosity!
So you're saying Rob Bell is more loving than God, if he loves and accepts those whom you would have God reject? And it makes him a fake to decide not to stay at one church all his life? Where does that come from?
not arguing the existence of hell but you're challenge is flawed. Please feel free to check behind me with a concordance, but the subject Jesus spoke of the most is also the one He spoke of first: "The Kingdom of Heaven is upon you"
Christians need to pray for Rob Bell. He isn't any more evil than any of the rest of us. He's just been deceived. He is saying theologically suicidal things, but he isn't the enemy.
If the Bible is about this place, why does it talk about principalities and powers? It's about redeeming old creation and creating a new creation. The Bible is very other dimensional, not just "this place".
Well the bible was written during a time of Empire so I'd guess that 'principalities and powers' might possibly have something to do with the then present empire (Roman) and by analogy to the present 'principalities & powers' of the current age - European & American empires, hyper-capitalism, autocracies of both the right and the left etc...
I’m 12 years late but I finally agree and don’t believe Rob is a heretic. You could call me the same thing because I don’t believe in the pagan idea of an eternal conscious torment because 1, it’s not in the Bible, 2 Abraham also went to the place 3 the Bible was not inspired 4 the writers had numerous other hands involved writing than only the author accredited.
Done! Now I pray for the stoniness of your heart, in that you are sounding much like the folks at Westboro Baptist. May you know that the goodness of the grace of God is greater than all of the world of sin.
If God had a message He wanted to communicate to his loving and devoted followers (or even to the whole world), why would he put his message in a format so esoteric and symbolic that it would be difficult or even impossible to interpret. The purpose of communication, after all, is to communicate. Why not just say what he means? God is not stupid. He invented calculus and created the Higgs bosom particle. Surely, He understands that in communicating to billions of people on earth, some of them will be geniuses and some--let’s say--intellectually challenged. For his message to have its best effect, it should be in a format easily understood by as many people as possible, especially since a message from God is liable to determine whether a person goes to Heaven or burns in agony forever in Hell. Since God can do anything, he could simply snap his fingers and presto, everyone would understand his message perfectly and mistakes would be unheard of. So, when a message comes from God in a format that would make the oracle of Delphi proud, what are we to make of that? It is possible the fault lays not with God but with the messenger. Suppose the messenger is a con artist who makes an easy living hoodwinking devout Christians by dazzling them with flimflam. To establish his credentials as a messenger of God, the fraudster claims to be a prophet. This entails some problems because it requires him to prophesies occasionally. The con artist can no more foretell the future than anyone else, so he reverts to a little mumbo jumbo-symbolic language 😜. If he gets the prophesy wrong, he can always argue that YOU misinterpreted God’s message. “It’s all YOUR FAULT.”
When Jesus said He would draw all people to Himself when He is lifted up (crucified), He did not mean that every single person would be saved and end up in heaven. There are those, and there are many of them, who reject his cross. "For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. [1Co 1:18]
“He did not mean that every single person would be saved and end up in heaven.” Where in the Bible did it say all won’t be saved? John 12:30-32, 30 Jesus answered and said… 32 And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw ALL men to Myself.”
taking the Word of GOD out of context is a growing problem. the verse was talking about how woman first brought sin into the world but by the birth if Jesus they where saved. because of that "birth" they where saved. not all childbirth. look at it in context.
Set down the Bible for a second. Does anyone here not think that a ALL LOVING GOD, could come up with a better plan than to allow a creation to get so out of hand, that said Creator would have to send His Beloved Children to a burning torment for ever and ever. Geez! Anyone on this planet could sit down for 20 minutes and come up with a better plan than that! Folks, you're being played. The Emperors came up with Salvation/Damnation set up to trap people with fear and vanity..."You'll be saved...and everyone else will burn...so join now!" Really? GOD IS LOVE. And a PERFECT GOD has a PERFECT CREATION. This world is just a school, where SOULS are sent to grow in love and giving. Over many lives this is accomplished. Quit letting the Roman Emperors make god into a monster. Quit being enablers.
And the reason is, we are not PERFECTLY HOLY, and GOD is, therefore, your solution, the one you are presenting in your statement is not perfect and is lacking...
blinkrei Perhaps I should elaborate. The reason why we are here is because we are not "Perfectly Matured" yet. Take the Apostle Paul...was he 'born' an apostle or was he born a little baby who had a lot of growing up to do? But, the "apostle potential" existed within himself, he just needed the right nurturing to evolve into the SHINING SAINT that he would eventually become. By the same token, a rosebud has all the potential of a fully bloomed rose, it just needs time to "unfold" it's petals. We (SOULs) are the same way. We start out as infant SOULS and then, thru many lifetimes, unfold into the Shining Lights of GOD. That's the real plan for all SOULS everywhere...there is no other destiny..no SOUL is ever lost.
But nobody knows. Love is here. God is love & your friend if you'll have one. Just play w/ the kitties & the puppies & the children. Go feed the ducks in the park. Give someone a nice coat of yours if they don't have one & will accept it from you. Just a suggestion.
Jesus talked about hell more than any other subject. Yes, Jesus makes a new world. But hell is real, too, or else Jesus wouldn't have talked about it so much. You cannot talk about the Gospel and Jesus Christ without talking about the reality of hell. This isn't being negative. This is a warning! The whole truth, not partial.
logically, you can't be Pro-hell AND Pro-heaven, you can have either one, you can't have both. God can't be both, my God is love, and that is the true gospel.
If you think so, you're totally wrong! Heaven and Hell are actual places and Hell is clearly where you don't want to be, because in that place, you'll burn forever and ever and be eternally separated from the presence of God with absolutely no hope of escape. However, Heaven is where you'll live with the Lord and be in His presence forever and ever and being a good person and doing "religious" things, such as going to church, singing in the choir and so-on, will by no means get you there. You only get there by repenting of your sins and putting your complete trust in Jesus's perfect life, His death on that old rugged cross for the forgiveness of your sins and His bodily resurrection from the dead for your justification.
Is God not the very embodiment of His Kingdom? Does it not perfectly reflect Him? Is Christ not God? Therefore indeed Christ spoke literally when He said to those who were before Him that the Kingdom of Heaven is upon them.
Tell them how Jesus story was stolen from Horus of Egypt or how the first slave ship was named Jesus or why Jesus makes no mention of Adam or coming to take away Adams sin and if Jesus had no sin why did he need to be baptized
Casandra do you understand the doctrine of dispensations? Every prophet since the beginning preached Christ, but eventually the people would reject the simple truths. The doctrine of Christ was taught prior to the Egyptians. Most Christians don't understand WHAT Christs sacrifice is. When they accused him of blasphemy he said, "I have ye are gods." In fact in the ancient near east the garden was associated with divine kingship. So Adam is the divine son of the gods and is a king. Christ is partaking of the fallen nature of man completely, that he might share what he is completely. Its about deification. Athanasius said "God became man that man might become God." We are made in Gods very image and likeness--an obvious statement that we are Gods children in a literal sense. Jesus states in revelation that "he who overcomes will sit on my throne even as I sit upon the throne of my father." Christ's sacrifice is about the deification of his children to godhood. The true impact of what Jesus was performing has been watered down. The deification and godhood stuff has been removed because it is looked at as blasphemy. God and man are the same species. Its just that man is in an infantile state.
![Lp. Сердце Вселенной #60 РОЖДЕНИЕ ЛОЛОЛОШКИ [Финал] • Майнкрафт](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/YoR0pAV9FVQ/mqdefault.jpg)
To be honest, I'm slightly concerned if you have absolutely no difficulty with the idea of eternal conscious torment
Not my idea thank god!
God has horrible difficulty with the idea of eternal conscious torment- and that is why He sent His Son to save us. He provided Himself as the answer.
If God is a God of justice, He would not punish finite sins with infinite punishment.
I have always wondered why a God of infinite love would require a human sacrifice in order to forgive us of our sins.
Mark Anderson
Because you cannot be mercifull, and a perfect judge if you just let people off for their sins. Where is the atonement for the sin?
People are guilty, Jesus was not, and so made a perfect willing atonement for the sins of the guilty. To understand the crucifixtion you need to ask yourself some questions....
How would God deal with sin?
How would God show mercy and forgive sins when doing one would count out the other side of his character?
Would God become fallable if he forgave sin with no atonement?
Bear in mind you`re dealing with a God that is perfect in mercy,love and justice so how does that God deal with sin without punishing anyone and mantaining those attributes?/ it can`t be done, unless you can think of another way?...
That is why nobody saw it coming , why nobody could ever have guessed God would do it and wondered how redemption was even possible.
The Cross was not just essential to man`s redemption, it was GENUIS on God`s part.
I've gone to church my WHOLE life. I have been to Baptist, Church of Christ, Nazarene, Pentecostal, and Assembly of God. The one thing they had in common: They all thought THEY were right and everyone else was WRONG. This guy makes the most sense of ANY of them. I think he's basically just saying that it's not about who's right and who's wrong, it's about the love of GOD. That is so incredibly refreshing.
And you are being responsible by labeling Rob Bell a heretic?? A man who has given his life to serve God and the body of Christ and the world. I and many are immensely blessed and challenged to go deeper in our life with Yeshua by this man's ministry. Rob is only voicing the questions that many who are real with their faith are asking.
Rob Bell is awesome! This issue of hell as a place of conscious eternal torment has driven untold thousands of people away from even considering the God of Israel. More often than not hell is referred to as a place of perishing and destruction. God is a consuming fire. The punishment will be eternal, not the punishing. Big difference! The language of the Bible demands we look at this critical issue with open minds and open hearts.
The real question is: would you still love God, even if He decided to punish people forever in hell? Or would that cause you to hate God?
1 - again, you are making a statement that cannot be supported.. "he does not see the Bible as it really is" - you have failed to prove this and therefore the rest of your judgment falls flat
2 - "hell" is too vague. Do you mean Gehenna, hades, sheol, or the "lake of fire"? All very different things, which unfortunately have been translated or understood as "hell" at one time or another. Most people's view of "Hell" today is rooted in a medieval notion drawn largely from Dante's Inferno
I have seen him much maligned in recent times but I think he is seriously onto it in many ways. I admire his courage for taking the flak and sticking to his guns. He is on the right track.
Jesus said "if I be lifted up I will draw ALL MEN UNTO ME".. There's room for all in God👍❤️
Where is that verse?
Mm, He also says "Narrow is the way that leads to salvation and few are those who find it."
John 30-32 30 Jesus answered and said, “This voice has come not for My sake, but for your sakes. 31 Now judgment is upon this world [cosmos, “world order”], now the ruler of this world will be cast out. 32 And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.”
ALL MEN…if we think otherwise then we call God a liar.
When John and James wanted to call fire down on the Samaritans' heads because they did not believe Jesus was the Son of God, who did Jesus condemn, His disciples or the Samaritans for not believing the gospel directly from the apostles' own mouth? (Luke9:55-56) Dear Christian, think! These Samaritans, who knew the Law of Moses, rejected disciples who personally knew Jesus AND rejected Jesus Himself. Why didn't Jesus do what the typical modern evangelist do, condemn them to Hell because they didn't "decide to follow Jesus," they "didn't give their hearts to the Lord." According to the modern traditional gospel, these Samaritans were given the chance to go to heaven but they rejected the way. Yet Jesus didn't condemn them - He condemned His own disciples for behaving the way the typical Christian behaves today.
Jesus came to save the world, not just a part of it. If He succeeded, then He could rightfully be called the "Savior of the world." But if He failed, then not only could He not claim that title, He could not be the Messiah because He would have failed in the mission of the Messiah.
What? Them requesting that had nothing to do with not believing in or follow Christ. When we are told the anti christ will deceive MANY with peace, "He will destroy many with peace." and have Jesus saying, "When they say peace and safety, then comes sudden destruction." You will reject it, for peace and safety, with this false Christ, who will allow you to believe whatever you want, as long as it's part of the new world order. Peace for everyone. Jesus said, "Do not think I come in peace, I come with a sword."
nagol5178 Thank you for your comment. It was a great reminder of the reason why I left the church, churchianity and all its foolish theologies. Because the good book suffers more from its exponents than it does by its opponents.
sometimes i feel alone, then when i read coments like yours, I know I am not alone.
There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love. 1 John 4:18
So if you hear an preaching that causes fear-for example the Endtimes- then you know something is wrong and you can ask questions!
Go on and read the New Testament for yourself, start with Romans and go on with Ephesians. Read it as a whole and not as chapters. Truly you will see things that preachers never told you :) Go on an adventure!
You are welcome to a new life of testimony, I pray that whatever you seek, you will receive it this year, you will be the first person to testify to the goodness of the Almighty, wherever you are favors will locate you , and you never run out of blessings in your life, so when I was on your profile last night the Lord gave me a revelation that this month the world is going to celebrate with you, you are going to be greater than what you think , and with that I saw the hand of the enemy, which tries to withhold your blessings and the Lord asked me to tell you that you should give a wonderful gift, which means you must sow a wonderful seed to the children of the ophanage to found motherless children and also ask the motherless children for prayers in your life that you may get that greatest testimony to come to you, contact the MD of (DIEVINE BLESSED OPHANAGE HO ME FOUNDA TION) somewhere in Madrid Spain its full seed to sow a miracle me for them its the seed of break up within two days be sure to whatsapp them and send them a wonderful gift see wonderful from your families , also don't forget to ask for the prayers of the ophanage children in your life, also let me know so i can join hands in prayers whatsapp the MD now (+34632260131) you are blessed...
You are welcome to a new life of testimony, I pray that whatever you seek, you will receive it this year, you will be the first person to testify to the goodness of the Almighty, wherever you are, favors you will locate, and you never run out of blessings in your life, so when I was on your profile last night the Lord gave me a revelation that this month the world is going to celebrate with you, you are going to be more greater than what you think , and with that I saw the hand of the enemy, which is trying to withhold your blessings and the Lord asked me to tell you that you should give a wonderful gift, which means you must sow a wonderful seed to the children of the ophanage to found motherless children and also asked the motherless children for prayers in your life so that you may obtain that greater testimony to come to you, contact the MD of ( CHRISTIAN GOD BLESSED OPHANAGE HO ME FOUNDATION) somewhere in nigeria in the city state of benin its full seed to sow a miracle for m e its the seed of break up within two days be sure to whatsapp them and send them a wonderful gift see wonderful from your families, also don't forget to ask for the prayers of the children of the ophanage in your life, also inform me so that I can join hands in prayers whatsapp the MD now (+34632260131) you you are blessed.
"Rejects Christ" Really? Have you listened to a word Bell said? On the other hand, Paul said death and hades were defeated. That God would be ALL in ALL again. That in Christ ALL were made alive who were made dead (mortal) by Adam (not just a few lucky enough to make the right decision. But until one can stop reducing the gospel to "hell avoidance", it is hard to grasp these higher thoughts, and that God has a plan for the AGES, not just this age and we're done.
u really help me pastor. i struggle being a christian but i watch ur videos to help me wen im struggleing
If believing in the God Rob Bell believes in sends me to hell then I'll be the first person to sign up. I just can't wrap my head around everyone bashing him.
spartyfan247 It's mostly fear of God and fear of man
+DRUMMERJAYable Fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom .Also Christ taught us not to fear man ( because they can only destroy the body) but instead He taught us to fear Him ( IE God) who, after killing the body has the additional power to throw us into Hell !
+TheHumbuckerboy
Would you have a different view of God if your knew that the translation was actually reverence and Awe of the lord is the beginning of wisdom?
Because it does!
+Phil Rivera Yes, so Jesus is saying to have reverence and awe of God rather than man because it is God who throws rebellious sinners into Hell .
Oh dear, its seems you church has deceived you because Jesus used the word Gehenna, not the word hell. it was a fiery dump just outside of Jerusalem back in Jesus day,. where the criminals and paupers bodies were tossed. But today its a beautiful park!
To a 1st century Jew, Jesus words meant dont waste your life away, doing nothing!
You have been duped into believing a kiddie pool doctrine!
you can make that verse into anything you want. The sound doctrine could be the message of unconditional love and the law of liberty - which self righteous people dont like quite frankly, then they will go to self righteous doctrine which their itching ears want to hear. So I wouldn't quickly pull that verse out of the hat, also remember 1 Timothy 4:10 says that "God is the Savior of all mankind, especially of believers" .. my my Timothy what the hell did you just say?!
1 - Your straw man is that Bell rejects Christ. He does not, and you have not proven he does.
2 - Bell is not claiming that there is any other way to the Father except through Christ.
So, I don't see either of your proof texts as being applicable here.
On the contrary, John 6:44 proves that all will eventually know Christ, as Jesus says elsewhere that if He be lifted up He would draw (lit. drag) ALL men to himself.
Go ye in through the strait gate, because wide is the gate, and broad the way that is leading to the destruction, and many are those going in through it; how strait is the gate, and compressed the way that is leading to the life, and few are those finding it!
What bible are you all reading??
You are playing a dangerous game with Gods Word...
Jeremiah 7:20
Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, mine anger and my fury shall be poured out upon this place, upon man, and upon beast, and upon the trees of the field, and upon the fruit of the ground; and it shall burn, and shall not be quenched.
Bells's first sentence in this clip says it all. God is about RESTORATION, not RETRIBUTIION. Until your heart can truly believe that, you will continue to miss the real message of the word. What is God REALLY like? A Father? A Shepherd? Or a slave-driver, executioner, and torturer? Answer this question correctly and you are on the right track.
my question is Why does one have an issue with the wide embrace of Christ? What is in us that we would want to reject this exclusivity?? It think it may tell more about us then them...
i pray god will bless you and strengthen you to continue preaching this good news. no more literal reading of the bible is my pray and fasting.
"Condemned", by the way, means "render negative judgment" - judgment defined by the Divine Law, nowhere in which is torture condoned. On the contrary - the spirit of the Law is restitution, making what is wrong right again.
lovely...perfect! That's the gospel! Perfect law of. liberty...Amen.
" For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear."--2Tim 4:3
You wrote that comment 8 years ago!!! 💖 I must ask how is the view since then?
2:56
Just because Jesus flipped incorrect 1st century Jewish religious thinking on its head does not mean present-day biblical thinking about who's in or out is wrong. This is fallacious.
Rob would say Jesus corrected the Jewish religious understanding of who was "in" and who was "out." And he did. "I am the way the truth and the life," Jesus said, "no man comes to the Father except through me." Becoming "in" depends on accepting Jesus. So, today, if we accept the categories of "in" or "out" that Jesus identifies, we can be sure we are right, because it is on the authority of Jesus.
So we can boldly preach salvation through Christ alone, to the exclusion of all other ways.
Something could be said about our inability to judge the genuineness of someone's profession of faith in Christ, but if someone rejects Christ...he has lost all hope of eternal life, that much is clear.
You are welcome to a new life of testimony, I pray that whatever you seek, you will receive it this year, you will be the first person to testify to the goodness of the Almighty, wherever you are favors will locate you , and you never run out of blessings in your life, so when I was on your profile last night the Lord gave me a revelation that this month the world is going to celebrate with you, you are going to be greater than what you think , and with that I saw the hand of the enemy, which tries to withhold your blessings and the Lord asked me to tell you that you should give a wonderful gift, which means you must sow a wonderful seed to the children of the ophanage to found motherless children and also ask the motherless children for prayers in your life that you may get that greatest testimony to come to you, contact the MD of (DIEVINE BLESSED OPHANAGE HO ME FOUNDA TION) somewhere in Madrid Spain its full seed to sow a miracle me for them its the seed of break up within two days be sure to whatsapp them and send them a wonderful gift see wonderful from your families , also don't forget to ask for the prayers of the ophanage children in your life, also let me know so i can join hands in prayers whatsapp the MD now (+34632260131) you are blessed...
How do you deal with Matthew 7:13-14 and your wideness of the way to God? Matthew 7:13-14 “Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it. 14 “For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it. ???
The whole streets of gold thing always sounded dull to me, but better than spending eternity with pitchforks being stuck in my tush. This was when I was a child. Now I have a greater understanding of the fallen nature and of the Love that has never left us.
A very interesting perspective. I personally liek to give this one:
If you walked into a church with the desire in your heart that all men find Christ, you'd be called compassionate, caring, and a person with a heart after God.
"Do you believe it will happen though?" they will ask.
If you say "Yes", you're a hieratic, deciever, and a person who twists God's Truth.
What a twisted sense of salvation. Are you saying if there was no hell you wouldn't be a Christian?? "Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent." "The people walking in darkness
have seen a great light...they rejoice before you
as people rejoice at the harvest" "I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly"
Interesting thing about Rob's loudest and most obnoxious critics are how the thought of having to spend eternity with them sounds like pure hell to me.
😂😂
Rob Bell is correct! People are way too quick to judge and assume they know God and His Word. Satan is the monster. He lies and steals and destroys. ""Which of you men, if you had one hundred sheep, and lost one of them, wouldn't leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one that was lost, until he found it? " God will make a way for all men to know Him. With God all things are possible.
hmmm. not totally following you, but suffice to say people have proof-texted their position over centuries and we still have no consensus. So, you might consider giving a little grace to those who disagree with you.
Hey Rob, one question... who does the Bible say is the "god of this world" or the "god of the age?"
At best that shows annihilationism in Paul, not eternal torment. But merely citing a passage doesn't mean anything, because now you've shown there are contradictions in Paul's own thinking on the matter; the other texts I cited are undeniable affirmations of universalism. Do we leave the contradictions or do we harmonize? And if the latter, why not reinterpret saving the universalist texts, rather than using the apparent hell texts as a limit? Why preserve the hell texts rather than the others?
Romans 8: For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God. for the creation was subjected to futility not of its own will, but because of Him who subjected it in hope (epis=expectation) that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God.
+Shana Brown " the creation" being spoken of (in Romans 8) that has the " anxious longing" and that " waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God " seems to be referring to God's animal creation .
The argument has been made that if God revealed himself to us, we would be so overwhelmed by his wonderfulness that we could not help but choose him. In that situation--it's been argued--we would be denied our free will and God wants us to freely choose him. If we had the opportunity to know God--and if he were as wonderful as the clergy claim--then we would all freely choose God. That makes perfect sense, and that WOULD BE a free choice because--of course--it's so obvious. Why would anyone make any other decision? The reason people don't choose the Christian god is because he is invisible, unknowable, his message is as obscure and confusing as a sooth sayer's prophecy from Delphi. Everyone interprets Bible passages differently and there is no rock-solid criteria to determine which interpretation is correct. Down through the ages there have been billions of religions. How is anyone supposed to sort through all that and determine which one is the true religion? The task is impossible. For God to withhold knowledge of himself and allow us to make our decision based on error then condemn us for making a mistake and calling that free choice is a lie. For God to play such despicable semantic games proves his dishonesty and evil intent. OR by demonstrating his duplicity he proves his imperfection which stands as evidence that God is not God. He is the invention of an imperfect human, which means: God is not real. He doesn't exist.
always was and will be forever more...when our hear happens, it is revealed...As we are true to ourselves not religion or someone else's God or path, ...there we are, in Christ and the Cristo's in us..Very expansion, a radical transformational redemption, consisting of violent faith and the integrity for the spirit.
Believing in Hell in no religion is required to be taken to Heaven. So, what is so bad about him? Because he hurts your feelings because he says something that you aren't used to. If you want to see true evil, I suggest you all look inside your ind and how you feel about this man, whom still loves God and Jesus, who happens to have a different view than you about what truly is a trivial matter. If you only do good because you are afraid of Hell, you are not a good person. He does good without the fear of Hell. That's what a good person is.
Just some thoughts, with an unbiased view.
He loves the God he created in his own mind. Throwing Gods righteous judgement out the window because he is trying to be relevant. Pleasing man and not God.
And you know this based on a personal relationship with Bell? Or because you want him to be that way, so you can argue against him, and be oaky with it,
Matthew Damonze Lol. So, do you and every other Christian on this planet believe the same thing? Do you interpret scripture the same as every other Christian? And if not, are the Christians that don't see things the way you see them all going to hell?
This man is very intelligent. He starts at the very root of Christianity. Preachers like John MacArthur & popular Calvinists have a root that starts at St. Augustine. Their theology derives from Gnosticism. Most Protestant theology starts with 5th century Manichean Gnosticism (both Calvinists and Arminians(but arminians go back and correct some).
I have videos that discuss all of this. There is a reason why Rob Bell wrote on sex and Hell. Because, these were the errors of St Augustine.
Godrules Fascinating! Thanks, I have to look this up. I’ve been studying these matters my whole life (preacher’s son) and I haven’t come across that Root analysis. More power to ya!
Rob Bell frightens the hell peddlers and damn preachers because he speaks of a God of Grace who seeks to redeem the world - and not just them. When Jesus called out the pharisees of his day and challenged the Powers and Principalities it cost him the Cross. Rob Bell will only get the scorn of hypocrites. The world has made some progress, but the hypocrites still rule.
Truly, the law of Love (true judgment) does indeed lead to salvation (liberation). Yet one who was in a very literal hell, Corrie Ten-Boom, knew the truth of: "There is no pit that God is not deeper still". These words have always blest and encouraged me. I pray they do the same for you.
Ok, so I like that concept, however, according to the bible there are some who will rebel after the establishment of Jesus as our king, how do you account for them, the armies of Gog and Magog for example. Now remember, I am not a bible worshipper so i believe in the fallible text, that some could be altered/added. By your description, those who are raised from death will still have the opportunity to live in the Millenium or work off their debt correct? I would like your take on this.
This is great message. I would ask a simple question in context of parent. For example if your son or daughter walkied up to you and refused your advice and ways as a child would you punish them for all eternity ( or age ) if you said no then you are in truth saying that you are abundantly more mercyfull than GOd the Father. I am pursuaded that God is mercy and love and will redeem the world and all in it.
Amen Neil
We are not God and equating our roles as parent as analogous to God the Father, and His holiness and righteousness judgment and condemnation of sin is blasphemy. Please read your Bible and repent of your sins.
Well said!
@@jesseharper7172 Actually, begin at the beginning of the bible. God said "let us create mankind in our image, male and female" which means we are to live and act in the ways that God intended. So, by your logic (or lack of), you would be suggesting that if your child doesn't listen to you then as God's image-bearers we are required to punish our children infinitely for their finite act of disobedience. I would encourage you to read your bible, my friend. We aren't equal to God, but we bear His image. If using the analogy of God as a Parent and us as parents is blasphemous, you'd be calling Jesus a blasphemer...or haven't you read the story in Luke 15 about the compassionate father, and his prodigal son...where we're supposed to learn the lesson of how to forgive in the same way the father does.
@@jesseharper7172 That's a great way to justify a "loving" god that does awful things.
please. show me where there is a list and ranking of sin. I have read every verse of the Bible a few times and done research and written commentaries on several of its books and have never found this scale of which you speak. Nor have I found a place where Jesus would have thought lying to your government to be worse than lying to a child
Jesus said, I AM THE WAY THE TRUTH AND THE LIFE!!!
You're absolutely right! In John 14:6, Jesus Himself makes it clear that He is the Way, the Truth and the Life and noone comes to the Father but through Him. This means that even being a good person and doing such "religious" things as going to church, singing in the choir and so-on, will by no means get you to Heaven. It is only by repenting of your sins and putting your complete trust in His perfect life, His death on that old rugged cross for the forgiveness of your sins and His bodily resurrection from the dead for your justification.
" For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son that whosoever believes in him shall not perish but have everlasting life" (John 3:16). All Christians believe that this says exactly what it means and it means exactly what it says. Where's the disagreement among christians?
Jose Santiago Well, the council of Nicaea tells us that Christians from the beginning disagreed with what "begotten" meant so no, we didn't always agree. What is everlasting life? When does it begin? What does it mean to "not perish"? What does it mean to believe? Also there is this thing called the rest of the Bible that says other things.... haha...There is a reason why there are so many denominations....
Dan Lee The fool says in his heart,
“There is no God.” (Psalm14:1).
What I notice about people who don't want to accept the sound doctrine of the Bible is that they have a dark secret sin they do not want to repent of. Fess up and repent.
By the way begotten means one and only Son. Jesus is the one and only Son of God.
Jose Santiago But John 3:16 wasn't written in the first 70-100 years. How did someone go to heaven before Paul was converted? Remember, the APOSTLES' days , the church was the strongest? Ah, the APOSTLES CREED'. Where did ROB BELL violate the APOSTLES CREED Jose?
GENTLEMAN FOR LIFE ALso, the people who wrote the NEW TESTAMENTS actually have a doctrine and a church. FROM day 1, there's no such thing as "THE BIBLE". There was no BIBLE until 397 AD "Council of Carthage" where "CATHOLIC BISHOPS" approved the 73 books BIBLE. Our faith was about church teachings. If you read the 73 books BIBLE , it has the book of 1st & 2nd Maccabees which asked you to pray for the dead.
GENTLEMAN FOR LIFE Also, if you use the 66 books BIBLE, by default you are saying "MARTIN LUTHER" is the will of GOD. No one but him who approves that book, it didn't come out of thin air. The Gutenberg BIBLE is 73 books, the first King James is 73 books, the majority of the world is 73 books, and we should ask "WHAT IS THE BIBLE" before we have the right to start quoting it. THE DIDACHE and the early church teach a "NATURE OF GOD" that matches ROB BELL. In America, evangelicals fired all the messengers of GOD so they get to do the interpretation, then fight among themselves with denominations because everyone wants to be GOD. BUT IN THE EARLY CHURCH, what did ROB BELL teaches that violates the "APOSTLES' CREED"??
We Japanese people has also recognized that the same kind of God who teaches us to be kind, generous and honest to others and be humble to each other, to love your kids and your family, etc. was very similar to what those Christians tried to teach among our ancestors.... and still we have to tell that unless we believe in Christ, we are all heading to hell, apart from God...is that reasonable?
People that are saying that their view on hell and eternal conscience torment is what the scriptures teach need to do a lot more studying. It is just not that cut and dry. Look at church history as well as scripture. Greater, more competent godly men have debated this for years before we were even born. And don't use the the cop out argument that Jesus taught that some would burn forever. Are you completely sure that is what he meant? Study the scriptures and listen to what others are saying and then prayerfully consider what to believe. Don't just swallow the teachings of your past. Use your God-given brain. Or don't use your brain. If we werent supposed to think then god would not of created us that way.
You are deceived, plain and simple. The bible IS clear on this subject.
+Jordan Wendt NO IT ISN'T....THE SCRIPTURES ARE JEWISH THE JEWS HAVE NO CONCEPT OF ETERNAL DAMNATION.FACT
+Den Brodie read Daniel chapter 12 buddy.
+Jordan Wendt get a rabbi to read it in the original buddy not king james english
+Jordan Wendt For the living know that they will die, but the dead do not know anything; they have no further reward--and even the memory of them disappears. ..ecclesiastes
@Sessilse "he can not allow sin to go unpunished" why? He's the one who made the rules? Can he not change them?
Thanks, Rob.
"Lies Exposed & Truth Revealed" is a must read for all Christians along with your Bibles
Jesus Christ was "born under the Law, to Redeem those who were under the Law." {GAL4:4-5} Jesus Christ came first to restore the ancient Hebrew people, then the Gentiles..."I was not sent except to the lost sheep of Yasaral." {MATT15:24}.
Jesus Christ taught the apostles, disciples, and Hebrew people the bedrock of everything we do or think has to be based on Love, or it will come to nothing. Christ transitioned the Hebrew people from the Old Covenant into the New Covenant, which is based on Love, and is Spiritual; what is within is what is important.
The gentile Believers, who were grafted into the New Covenant by Christ's Sacrifice and the shedding of His Blood, were taught by apostle Paul that unless you have Love, you have nothing.
Jesus Christ taught that "If you love Me, you will keep My Commandments."
Jesus Christ tells us "And you shall love Yahuah Father the Almighty
with all your heart, and with all your mind, and with all your strength.
This is the first Command.
And the second, like it, is this, You shall love your neighbor as yourself.
There is no Commands greater than these." {MARK12:30-31}
Again in JOHN13:34-35 Jesus Christ teaches His apostles and disciples "A new Command I give to you, that you love one another, as I have loved you;
that you also love one another.
By this shall all know that you are My disciples, if you love one another."
Apostle Paul teaches what love is in 1COR13.
"Love is patient, Love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud.
It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs.
Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the Truth.
It always protects, always Trusts, always Hopes, always perseveres.
Love never fails.
And now three remain: Faith, Hope, and Love, but the greatest of these is Love."
Apostle Peter teaches us that "Above all, keep loving one another earnestly, since Love covers a multitude of sins." {1PET4:8}
The Commandment of Love was also taught in the Old Commandment.
"A friend Loves at all times, and a brother is born for adversity." {PRO17:17}
"King David and Jonathan had a Love like this as described in 1SAM18:1.
As soon as he had finished speaking to Saul, the soul of Jonathan was knit to the soul of David, and Jonathan Loved him as his own soul."
Our Heavenly Father is Love. Jesus Christ, the Great I AM in the flesh, that walked the earth 2000 years ago, is Agape Love. When we truly understand the depth of Jesus Christ's Love for us, the price He paid for us, and we truly understand Yahuah Father's Holiness, Faithfulness, and Mercy for us, we can see that all that come to Him, will be forgiven and accepted by Him. We are all Redeemed. Some will come first and some will come last, but when our soul leaves our physical body at our death here on earth, and stands before Him, His Pure Light and Pure Love will overwhelm and overcome all. All will bend their knee in reverential fear, and all will know Him instantly. Do we really believe that our Heavenly Father will leave us in everlasting torment in a place called 'hell'?
We as Believers are responsible to get the correct translation of the word 'hell', and let go of our man-made doctrines and traditions, that are incompatible with the Word.
Do we really think that someone, using as an example, any one of our Presidents here in the USA, that profess to be Christians and go to church on Sunday; that they will be in Heaven,
and a humble, decent, honest, loving person that goes the extra mile for his family and friends, in India or Sudan or in Paraguay, that has never heard the Gospel of Jesus Christ, because of no fault of their own, will be automatically sent to 'hell' for eternity, by our Redeemer and Saviour? I think not. That is not what Jesus Christ and the apostles taught, nor what the Gospels and the Epistles say, and that is not why Jesus Christ came to earth. Jesus Christ died, Resurrected, and Ascended in to Heaven for ALL.
well said
I don't know but I just assume all are going to be w/ god after they die
& be restored or introduced to loving relationship w/ him & others.
& I think I am experiencing gods presents and protection from my own self
b/c I am sober and relatively sane tonight.
This is one of the few things that are advantageous about being an alkie
& a drug addict & mentally ill:
I know god loves me b/c he provides practical help to me every day
just like it says in the bible
& ,tho I am tempted, I don't have to speak for him.
Sharon Peters I agree with you. Because of man-made doctrines that we have all been taught, we think that at our physical death, all is over, when in reality life begins when our soul & Spirit is released from our physical body.
We also do not have the full comprehension of who Christ Jesus is and why He came to planet earth, and why He did what He did in order to establish a New Covenant with us.
The Creator of the Universe is Almighty and can't be contained in man-made doctrines. I agree that those that did not restore their relationship with our Heavenly Father while on earth will still be Loved by Him at their physical death, and will be introduced to Him, and to a Loving relationship with Him, through the Door, which is Christ Jesus.
How it all will be, no one knows, because so much correct information has been suppressed and man-made doctrines taught instead. We do know in His Word that He wants that no one perish, not one.
Guess we will have to see how it all plays out at the end of our lives. :)
I personally believe it will be the most beautiful experience of all.
And yes our Heavenly Father's Kingdom is here and now, and we are in its midst.
Christ Jesus is in our temple - our heart, mind, soul, and Spirit.....He is within us and His Spirit in our heart. Our Heavenly Father and Christ Jesus are here; within us and all around us. He told us He would never forsake us or leave us; He is Faithful, Merciful, and the depth of His Love for us is incomprehensible to the human mind. He is with us every step of the way, for sure sister! :)
The gentiles Paul and the disciples were preaching to were either Greek converts to Judaism or the elect diaspora, grafted-in descendants of the tribes of Israel who had been dispersed amonst the nations. Throught the ministryof the disciple's great commission, they were called out from the nations to again be the holy nation of kings and priests, to be sealed for the day of redemption, which they lived to see. Nobody today is a gentile of the that sort.
God is in this place. We can trust him. He loves us. That is my take just now from r.b. as i have just listened again for the 3rd time inna last mo.
Right on, very good comments!
Anyone who adds to, takes away from, or changes God's word will have consequences.
Rob Bell studied what the original audience would have understood. We have to review a lot of our medieval and perhaps flawed interpretations passed on to us. Are you willing to open up the discussion or are you afraid?
God is a just Judge, no unrepentant sinner will go unpunished. Love is calling all to repentant and ask for forgiveness because we deserve hell punishment. Christ died so that we no longer have to be under the wrath of God but rather to be saved from it. Those who reject the gospel of repentance and regenaration will have to face their choice. The narrow road is not walked by many..the broad way appeals because one does not have to deal with self, sin, pride etc. Literal hell and heaven exhist..
You are naive. The same scriptures teach that "the mystery of [God's] will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ" is "to bring unity to all things in heaven and on earth under Christ" (Eph 1:9-10); that " in Christ all will be made alive" and "God may be all in all" (1 Cor 15:22, 28); that "just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people" (Rom 5:18). Why do you ignore this testimony?
"If you were blind, you would not be guilty of sin; but now that you claim you can see, your guilt remains." How clear is that?
Amen! Amen! Amen!
What cracks me up is that certain people will be disappointed when they find out there’s not eternal hell and torture. Even though we are instructed in the Bible not to judge others, we’ve put on judges robes and condemned others when that is God’s responsibility, not ours.
If there is no hell then why do i need a savior? If I can live my life however I want then why do I need forgiveness? Why do I need church, why do I need a pastor?
1 John 2: 15Do not love the world nor the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
16For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh and the lust of the eyes and the boastful pride of life, is not from the Father, but is from the world.
17The world is passing away, and also its lusts; but the one who does the will of God lives forever.
Juast a bit of what the word of God says about "this place".
2 Peter 3:10-13 King James Version (KJV)
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
I think you missed the point of what icewomen881 was trying to say.
I didn't really take it that way, that he felt people were below him, just that we all need to learn to laugh at ourselves a little, because we're not the bigshots saving the day, Jesus is :-)
You have no reason to deny the universality of "all" in the texts I cited, apart from blind adherence to your inherited tradition. The Rom 5 text is especially clear on this matter. And I already addressed the meaning of "eternal" in the gospel texts -- it is qualitative rather than quantitative. And this New Jerusalem also has gates that never close! Interesting! Are people leaving or coming in? And how will be thrown into this literal lake of fire, do tell? Where is death and is he flammable?
But according to his promise we are waiting for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.
You can't get around Jesus talking about Hell in Matthew 41-43 41“Then the King will turn to those on the left and say, ‘Away with you, you cursed ones, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his demons.g 42For I was hungry, and you didn’t feed me. I was thirsty, and you didn’t give me a drink. 43I was a stranger, and you didn’t invite me into your home. I was naked, and you didn’t give me clothing. I was sick and in prison, and you didn’t visit me.’
Parables are not meant to be taken literally. And actually the place is more like the Greek concept of Hades than the (much later) Western Christian view of hell.
But at best, taking that route, you have left the verses from the Pauline corpus in contradiction with what Jesus says. There are other possible dialectical maneuvers: why not adopt a different interpretation of those passages from the gospels (which are few, anyway)? For instance, some offer a qualitative rather than quantitative rendering of "eternal", and understand "eternal punishment" to mean the punishment associated with his coming/inauguration of his kingdom, rather than unending.
The two are closely related issues: if universalism is true, then there is no eternal damnation; and perhaps if there is no eternal damnation (whether this damnation consists in annihilation or punishment), then universalism would seem to be true. But in any case, I'd like you to answer the question from my previous post.
It says in 2 Cor.4:4 in greek: "god of this age", so instead of "world" it should be "age" as in many other places in NT, and it was translated wrong, I have no clue why...
This is really great. Thank You 🙏🏻😎
For those of you who believe in hell as a place of unending torment, I challenge you. Is it God's love and mercy that drew you to Him? Is that what keeps you close to Him? Could you present the Gospel to someone without the threat of hell? Try it. For God so loved the world!!!
But there's always something about the Gospel that people don't like. At some point, you should be challenged by the Gospel, not only welcoming it
I have no idea what "make your own Bible" means...
The truth is that you can't make your own Bible. There is only one Bible, which is God's true, written Word and if you go on trying to make it say what you want it to say, you're in a world of trouble, because in Revelation 22:18-19, we are warned that if anyone adds to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take his part out of the book of life and out of the holy city and from the things that are written in this book.
So, whatever you do, never, never mess around with God's Word.
It's what the church has been doing to control people for centuries.
i don't know much about theology, but how is death not conquered every time a child is born, and a new life begins?
This is not the gospel of Jesus Christ, this is new age, Helena Blavatsky Theosophy. The opening of the third eye of consciousnesses. Yea,.....third eye???? More like opening your soul to demons. The message of Jesus Christ calls all men to repent and turn completely from their sins and life. To be saved and rescued from the lake of fire, because that is our eternal destination, For all have sin and fallen short of the glory of God, and; the penalty of sin is death. When the Apostle Paul speaks of this death, he is speaking of the true death, which is the casting of our soul into the lake of fire. But then he says: For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:23. That means we are destined to hell fire, but because of repentance we have inherited eternal life. And also Lord Jesus reminds us in Rev 3:11; I am coming quickly; hold fast what you have, so that no one will take your crown. NO ONE TAKE YOUR CROWN. That means you can lose what you have received, that means you have to daily go before the Father, seeking His face continually because you can lose yourself and salvation in this world. This is man is just preaching love, love and love and forgets that scripture also teaches us that when Jesus returns His day is a terrible day. It is not an easy day. He forgets that God is also a consuming fire. All love and no wrath is heresy.
Mat_25:41 "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
Rev 14:9-11 "If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, he also will drink the wine of God's wrath, poured full strength into the cup of his anger, and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name."
Rev 20:15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
Rev 21:8 But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death."
Mar 9:42-48 "Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him if a great millstone were hung around his neck and he were thrown into the sea. And if your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than with two hands to go to hell, to the unquenchable fire. And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life lame than with two feet to be thrown into hell.And if your eye causes you to sin, tear it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into hell, 'where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.'
You quote verses from the book of Revelation as if you understand its symbolic meaning.
SwordofManticorE
Actually, he just quoted from Matthew, not revelation. that's a Bible truth.
Esmerki De Los Santos Actually, both books are cited.
Ungodly people your soul is in the balance where God is concerned. These verses speaks very serious consequences. Act 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;Act 3:20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:Act 3:21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.Act 3:22 For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you.Act 3:23 And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.Act 3:24 Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days.Act 3:25 Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.Act 3:26 Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.
Jhn 3:35 The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.Jhn 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
2Th 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
2Th 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:2Th 2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
1Pe 4:15 But let none of you suffer as a murderer, or as a thief, or as an evildoer, or as a busybody in other men's matters.
1Pe 4:16 Yet if any man suffer as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf.
1Pe 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?
1Pe 4:18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?1Pe 4:19 Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator.
1Th 5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
1Th 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.1Th 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.1Th 5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.1Th 5:5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.1Th 5:6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.1Th 5:7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.1Th 5:8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.1Th 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,1Th 5:10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.
So the Bible talking about a new Heaven and a new Earth...?
(As in Revelations 21, "Then I saw 'a new heaven and a new earth,' for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea").
Mt 7: 18-19
"A sound tree cannot bear bad fruit than a bad tree can bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire."
How does one bear good fruit ? By doing good works !!
21-23 "None of those who cry out 'Lord, Lord' will enter the kingdom of God, but ONLY the one who DOES the Will of My Father in Heaven". "... When that day comes,any will say 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your Name? Have we not exorcised demons by it's power? Did we not do many miracles in Your Name as well? Then I will declare to them solemnly 'I never knew you. Out of my sight you evildoers !'"
You are welcome to a new life of testimony, I pray that whatever you seek, you will receive it this year, you will be the first person to testify to the goodness of the Almighty, wherever you are favors will locate you , and you never run out of blessings in your life, so when I was on your profile last night the Lord gave me a revelation that this month the world is going to celebrate with you, you are going to be greater than what you think , and with that I saw the hand of the enemy, which tries to withhold your blessings and the Lord asked me to tell you that you should give a wonderful gift, which means you must sow a wonderful seed to the children of the ophanage to found motherless children and also ask the motherless children for prayers in your life that you may get that greatest testimony to come to you, contact the MD of (DIEVINE BLESSED OPHANAGE HO ME FOUNDA TION) somewhere in Madrid Spain its full seed to sow a miracle me for them its the seed of break up within two days be sure to whatsapp them and send them a wonderful gift see wonderful from your families , also don't forget to ask for the prayers of the ophanage children in your life, also let me know so i can join hands in prayers whatsapp the MD now (+34632260131) you are blessed....
I would like to ask Rob what happened to the other thief on the cross, because I don't see where Jesus said today you guys will be with me in paradise.
There are many people who will not repent, no matter what - thus will not have a part of the new creation. Pride is the enemy of repentance.
Interestingly in Revelation 20, all the wicked dead are resurrected, and wage war in their billions to storm and pillage the Holy City. Then God finally decides enough is enough and wipes them out with fire and brimstone.
But even though it seems so from Rev 20:10 no eternal torment even for Satan (Ezekiel 28:12-19).
Eternal Torment is false doctrine, but there is even less support for Universalism.
But a man can be anointed with the holy spirit and spread that spirit to others! His lampstand burns with a fire that spreads to other lampstands. Carry the torch, spread love and generosity!
So you're saying Rob Bell is more loving than God, if he loves and accepts those whom you would have God reject? And it makes him a fake to decide not to stay at one church all his life? Where does that come from?
The difference on ‘justice’ is that God made it all. Every single bit of it. Sovereign over all. We made nothing. Not a fair comparison on judgement.
Matthew 15:14 Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.
not arguing the existence of hell but you're challenge is flawed. Please feel free to check behind me with a concordance, but the subject Jesus spoke of the most is also the one He spoke of first: "The Kingdom of Heaven is upon you"
Christians need to pray for Rob Bell. He isn't any more evil than any of the rest of us. He's just been deceived. He is saying theologically suicidal things, but he isn't the enemy.
Has he read the bible?
If the Bible is about this place, why does it talk about principalities and powers? It's about redeeming old creation and creating a new creation. The Bible is very other dimensional, not just "this place".
Well the bible was written during a time of Empire so I'd guess that 'principalities and powers' might possibly have something to do with the then present empire (Roman) and by analogy to the present 'principalities & powers' of the current age - European & American empires, hyper-capitalism, autocracies of both the right and the left etc...
I’m 12 years late but I finally agree and don’t believe Rob is a heretic. You could call me the same thing because I don’t believe in the pagan idea of an eternal conscious torment because 1, it’s not in the Bible, 2 Abraham also went to the place 3 the Bible was not inspired 4 the writers had numerous other hands involved writing than only the author accredited.
Done! Now I pray for the stoniness of your heart, in that you are sounding much like the folks at Westboro Baptist. May you know that the goodness of the grace of God is greater than all of the world of sin.
If God had a message He wanted to communicate to his loving and devoted followers (or even to the whole world), why would he put his message in a format so esoteric and symbolic that it would be difficult or even impossible to interpret. The purpose of communication, after all, is to communicate. Why not just say what he means? God is not stupid. He invented calculus and created the Higgs bosom particle. Surely, He understands that in communicating to billions of people on earth, some of them will be geniuses and some--let’s say--intellectually challenged. For his message to have its best effect, it should be in a format easily understood by as many people as possible, especially since a message from God is liable to determine whether a person goes to Heaven or burns in agony forever in Hell. Since God can do anything, he could simply snap his fingers and presto, everyone would understand his message perfectly and mistakes would be unheard of. So, when a message comes from God in a format that would make the oracle of Delphi proud, what are we to make of that? It is possible the fault lays not with God but with the messenger. Suppose the messenger is a con artist who makes an easy living hoodwinking devout Christians by dazzling them with flimflam. To establish his credentials as a messenger of God, the fraudster claims to be a prophet. This entails some problems because it requires him to prophesies occasionally. The con artist can no more foretell the future than anyone else, so he reverts to a little mumbo jumbo-symbolic language 😜. If he gets the prophesy wrong, he can always argue that YOU misinterpreted God’s message. “It’s all YOUR FAULT.”
When Jesus said He would draw all people to Himself when He is lifted up (crucified), He did not mean that every single person would be saved and end up in heaven. There are those, and there are many of them, who reject his cross. "For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. [1Co 1:18]
“He did not mean that every single person would be saved and end up in heaven.” Where in the Bible did it say all won’t be saved?
John 12:30-32, 30 Jesus answered and said… 32 And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw ALL men to Myself.”
taking the Word of GOD out of context is a growing problem. the verse was talking about how woman first brought sin into the world but by the birth if Jesus they where saved. because of that "birth" they where saved. not all childbirth. look at it in context.
Set down the Bible for a second. Does anyone here not think that a ALL LOVING GOD, could come up with a better plan than to allow a creation to get so out of hand, that said Creator would have to send His Beloved Children to a burning torment for ever and ever. Geez! Anyone on this planet could sit down for 20 minutes and come up with a better plan than that! Folks, you're being played. The Emperors came up with Salvation/Damnation set up to trap people with fear and vanity..."You'll be saved...and everyone else will burn...so join now!" Really? GOD IS LOVE. And a PERFECT GOD has a PERFECT CREATION. This world is just a school, where SOULS are sent to grow in love and giving. Over many lives this is accomplished. Quit letting the Roman Emperors make god into a monster. Quit being enablers.
And the reason is, we are not PERFECTLY HOLY, and GOD is, therefore, your solution, the one you are presenting in your statement is not perfect and is lacking...
blinkrei Perhaps I should elaborate. The reason why we are here is because we are not "Perfectly Matured" yet. Take the Apostle Paul...was he 'born' an apostle or was he born a little baby who had a lot of growing up to do? But, the "apostle potential" existed within himself, he just needed the right nurturing to evolve into the SHINING SAINT that he would eventually become. By the same token, a rosebud has all the potential of a fully bloomed rose, it just needs time to "unfold" it's petals. We (SOULs) are the same way. We start out as infant SOULS and then, thru many lifetimes, unfold into the Shining Lights of GOD. That's the real plan for all SOULS everywhere...there is no other destiny..no SOUL is ever lost.
But nobody knows. Love is here. God is love & your friend if you'll have one. Just play w/ the kitties & the puppies & the children. Go feed the ducks in the park. Give someone a nice coat of yours if they don't have one & will accept it from you. Just a suggestion.
Sharon Peters You are awesome. That was beautiful.
Jesus talked about hell more than any other subject. Yes, Jesus makes a new world. But hell is real, too, or else Jesus wouldn't have talked about it so much. You cannot talk about the Gospel and Jesus Christ without talking about the reality of hell. This isn't being negative. This is a warning! The whole truth, not partial.
logically, you can't be Pro-hell AND Pro-heaven, you can have either one, you can't have both.
God can't be both, my God is love, and that is the true gospel.
Heaven and hell is on earth..it's in your mind ..it's not a destination
If you think so, you're totally wrong! Heaven and Hell are actual places and Hell is clearly where you don't want to be, because in that place, you'll burn forever and ever and be eternally separated from the presence of God with absolutely no hope of escape.
However, Heaven is where you'll live with the Lord and be in His presence forever and ever and being a good person and doing "religious" things, such as going to church, singing in the choir and so-on, will by no means get you there. You only get there by repenting of your sins and putting your complete trust in Jesus's perfect life, His death on that old rugged cross for the forgiveness of your sins and His bodily resurrection from the dead for your justification.
"I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."
-Founder of Christianity.
Geoff Whiting nope. The Buddha said it first. Google it.
Is God not the very embodiment of His Kingdom? Does it not perfectly reflect Him? Is Christ not God? Therefore indeed Christ spoke literally when He said to those who were before Him that the Kingdom of Heaven is upon them.
Tell them how Jesus story was stolen from Horus of Egypt or how the first slave ship was named Jesus or why Jesus makes no mention of Adam or coming to take away Adams sin and if Jesus had no sin why did he need to be baptized
Casandra do you understand the doctrine of dispensations? Every prophet since the beginning preached Christ, but eventually the people would reject the simple truths. The doctrine of Christ was taught prior to the Egyptians. Most Christians don't understand WHAT Christs sacrifice is. When they accused him of blasphemy he said, "I have ye are gods." In fact in the ancient near east the garden was associated with divine kingship. So Adam is the divine son of the gods and is a king. Christ is partaking of the fallen nature of man completely, that he might share what he is completely. Its about deification. Athanasius said "God became man that man might become God." We are made in Gods very image and likeness--an obvious statement that we are Gods children in a literal sense. Jesus states in revelation that "he who overcomes will sit on my throne even as I sit upon the throne of my father." Christ's sacrifice is about the deification of his children to godhood. The true impact of what Jesus was performing has been watered down. The deification and godhood stuff has been removed because it is looked at as blasphemy. God and man are the same species. Its just that man is in an infantile state.