This is why i like my T-LEG 1993 turbo spool at 1800 RPM on the power Mode so fun in a city Marty i have an issue and i may have to look back at your old legacy wagon turbo video I have the same exact 17 inch wheel but I have some rubbing issue on back did you use spacer to fix it i don't recall?
After so many years of watching these two, it's like hanging out with mates. I'd live to have a beer and chat with them. Great blokes. Always love the chill Marty has.
I'm always a bit worried that one day I will see them at a kebab shop, I will just sit down at the table with them and start chatting like we are old mates. They'll proceed to think I am a weirdo.
There's way less H6's getting around than say 2.5 WRX's for example, each manifold design is different, built engine comp ratio comes into it, so often we're taking an educated guess at what turbo it needs. It would have kept making big numbers up to and over 30psi with the old turbo but i knew that wasn't what i wanted from the car to get the most enjoyment out of it on the street, which is where i want to spend the time!
When I was doing my apprenticeship as an engine reconditioner back in the 90s, if someone had 450hp in a street car they were a major baller who had spent a not-so-small fortune on theirr car, and their car was ridiculously lumpy, undrivable, and overheated at the first sight of traffic. Now you can get 600hp out of a Subaru quite easily and affordably. The future is great.
more todo with engine management tuning , alloy block is weak. thats why your better off with a fiat tc race proven or a Mitsubishi evo lump off the bat. uphill proven .
@@acidtechno engine management has certainly played a huge role, back then my engine management was a screwdriver which I would have to get out weekly to get my Webbers running briefly sweetly. Engines are just better designed and made with stronger components made from better materials these days. Back then if you didn't own a GTR or a WRX or Evo, and if you did you were minted, you'd be looking at aftermarket blocks, cranks, cylinder heads, roller cams and rockers for a small block Chev, it was only when the LS came in and became ubiquitous that 600hp became fairly easy to achieve and affordableish. Cars didn't stop or handle very well back then so it was probably a good thing horsepower was so expensive.
Shits changed. I had a 450hp skylight that drove great after a big engine rebuild. Now I have an M3 that would destroy that skyline everywhere, and it’s a nice car. The base cars are so much better now, I like how far OEMs have come.
After over a decade of watching MCM religiously, I will never get over how Scott makes Marty look like a little kid sitting in the passenger seat 😂 Thank you for keeping the Levorg series going, and thanks for another great video! Love from the USA
Just for anyone curious as it wasnt really explained during the conversation with Scotty on the phone @3:08. You may be wondering why the big turbo (g35-900) was too big and made the Subaru feel laggy but Marty said it would be perfect for the RX7, even though the RX7 has a smaller displacement engine (3.0 vs 1.3/2.6). That would be because the rotary engine in the RX7 produces a lot more exhaust gas than piston engines like the one seen in the Subaru. This has numerous downsides but notable in this scenario it does wonders for spooling turbos.
Yeah, it's a well known fact that Rotary's need large Turbos. Especially on the hot side. They flow way more exhaust, and back pressure affects them horribly. 👍
The eccentric shaft is also geared and spins 1.5x more per rotor than rotation, so the 1.3*1.5*2 = 3.9 liters. That's why they get such poor fuel economy and big power. It's not 1.3L is really a 4L engine lol.
Having a smaller turbo built for street use is way more fun on the street. Big turbos are only built for top end power on the drag strip. This is why I went with the smaller hybrid turbo on my stage 3 MK7 Golf R. I make 20-30whp less on top end but 500-800rpm sooner spool time for road course use.
With the STI, go to sport # then hold down traction control for 3s. Will see "trac mode" in green light up on centre clutster. Disable traction control completely.
I keep pounding the table on this; follow the compressor map for your power goal, give yourself enough compressor so that you're smack dab in the middle or a touch to the right if you want more response, that will almost never lead you astray. I swapped a T28 for a GT15 on both my Sportster and a customers Buell, it's so snappy it's like riding a big inch n/a bike.....pulls to 7,500rpm too, and the graph was still straight up! Snappy turbo setups are where it's at for pump-gas street cars/bikes. The bigger turbo's don't start to come into their own until you really start leaning on it. You can actually make more power everywhere, on the same boost with a smaller turbo if it's a better match for your combination. Cheers!
This is a perfect example of why my 2.3 Evo with a billet 60mm HX40 Holset and a .82ar V band housing is WAY more fun on the street than my 2.0 DSM was with a PTE 6262 and .82ar t3 housing. Plus the DSM was auto so even more boring, but it was a whole lot more rowdy on the 1/4!
The difficult part with turbo motors isn't just the size of the turbo, but creating a linear power delivery that is actually enjoyable and doesn't die off at X RPM...
I mean, whilst that is affected by cam choice, inlet/exhaust design, head flow etc, that is massively dictated by turbo sizing, particularly in relation to the engine capacity.
I have watched you guys for years and never left a comment, but now is the time. Great to see you get this project back on track. I always thought Super Gramps was your best build and the Levorg is now starting to get close. Love to see more content on this build.
This is why ‘standard’ evos are so fast. Fuel pump, injectors, cam, springs, lifters, good boost controller and wastegate, cop kit, stock turbo running 22/23 pounds and you will get over 230kw. Doesn’t sound like a whole lot but the size of the stock turbo it has all the response. Power as soon as you hit the go pedal is always better than peak power for any street car.
@@oldfashionedwrx3574not everyone wants a death trap on 2 wheels. Anyone can be fast on a bike. Being fast in a 3500+ lbs car is a totally different thing.
I’ve got a mk6 GTI and a simple jump to the golf R k04 turbo was a fantastic jump in power. I considered going bigger but I had this exact conversation with friends and other golf owners. The car is incredibly feisty and feels incredible with just that “small” increase.
So good to hear such an influential channel encouraging smaller turbos, even if it made less peak power, it's not all about those numbers that people just wanna flex! I have an S15 Spec R that makes 408hp on a little GT2871R. I'm preparing it to take on track this year as it's fun to drive on the back roads of the UK (that aren't shit) and I've had so many people tell me it needs more power - but the reason I'm taking it on track is because even 408hp in a 1200kg car feels like it's mostly unusable! I've said that anything over 450hp would not be usable on our roads, in my opinion, except for straight line rolling start acceleration - and even then, it's a push, since they have no traction control.
UA-cam ate my comment, but I had been tracking my Turbo MR2 for close to ten years and when it came to needing en engine build I had a block that was capable of 600+ power figures and a turbo that could do 400+ In the end I realised that just on the std ecu and fuelling the 300 it made was about what I could actually handle on track and even on wet days I’d be turning the boost down anyway. I’ve been in the MR2 scene for years and youd see so many people spend money and time on 600 and upwards builds only to either barely use them or sell em off after finishing. On the road for me 300 was enough for the odd b road blast and after I started doing trackdays I really slowed down on the road. It’s funny because the mr2 looked like a weapon with a wing, carbon bodywork, noisy track pads etc but usually just driven very sedately on the road.
It's all about "power under the curve". If you've got 400hp it might not sound impressive, but how about 400lb-ft torque from 2,000RPM to 6,000RPM. Different story.
@@milescarter7803 I am aware, I've seen all their videos about dyno reading, as well as Rob Dahm's 🤣 my turbo starts spooling around 2000rpm and is on full boost at 3100, so I have the rest of the rev range (up to 7000rpm) on full boost. I obviously can't upload pictures here but my graph doesn't look too dissimilar to Marty's in this video - I'd say just under 2/3 of the curve is on max power 👌
2871rs Suck on s15's you need a much newer turbo ! Anything efr or atleast a G25-550. Even the new hks GTIII-RS a/r0.60 the replacement for the gtrs which was a 2871r is a lot more responsive and makes more power would be an easy upgrade its a direct bolt on for you!
Indeed! The tiny Mitsubishi TD04 turbo in my Tommy kaira M20b's closed-deck EJ20 is absolutely savage! It hits 1-bar of boost at 3,000 rpm. It surges to 1.1-bar every time I stab the throttle, which kicks me in the back, and then the boost drops to a sustained 0.9-bar. Above 4,000 it boosts almost instantly, and pulls hard. I would never swap it out!
I'm still rocking the stock TD04-13t that came in my 05 wrx because I wanted the turbo to be the limiting factor vs the rods when it comes to how much power I can make. Mine comes on at about 2500rpm and I can't imagine having all that much more turbo lag that comes with a bigger turbo. Though, it would be cool to hit 300whp, or even the gentleman's agreement 276whp
This makes all too much sense for that kind of ride. I like to call it the "Bentley Principle". No, a Bentley doesn't need a 6 and 3/4 liter engine to get from A to B. But what a Bentley needs to do is make everything it does look effortless. Having to ring the nuts off a car to get into the power band isn't effortless. It isn't what you want out of an estate.
The importance and implications of turbo size selection is well-known, especially on boosted platforms. Boost threshold and transient response are just as important (and sometimes even more so) than power capability. Glad to see you made a wise choice in the end in light of how the car is driven.
yep, their initial turbo selection was obviously going to be oversized and laggy and was designed for 2+bar boost on a 3L. A 2minute eyeball of the compressor map shows that.
One of the best compliments I've gotten about my turbo FTO after I had someone set up the coilovers properly (and he had to drive it to the alignment shop), was his surprise when I said it only made barely over 150kW at the wheels. Twin TD03s on the 6A13 are tiny, it does roll over as you'd expect at the top, but torque is almost flat up to 5000RPM, and it still doesn't feel horribly sluggish to hit 7000. And I haven't even turned the boost up yet!
Yeah, I been saying this for a long time. Peak Power sells, but it's the torque and powerband that wins. The bigger the turbo, the more spool lag and the shorter the usable powerband. Great for drag racing... anything else not so much.
'No AC and I need a new clutch - just little things'. Whish I felt that way about my car. Repair AC $1500. Replace clutch $500 if I did it myself. So good that the car is almost there and makes you smile though 🙂
Pull the motor instead of dropping that tranny... You don't even need to drain the coolant if you can get that hoist on the block, but it's easier w the intercooler off.
Marty, the rear housing on the G35-900 and the G35-770 is the same. "G35" is the rear housing frame size. The 900 and 770 correlate to the compressor flow capacity. A G30-900 would give you nice response with the small rear housing (55mm turbine) but still keep the hp potential (62mm compressor).
Awesome sleeper build. Even pulled the legends in on this one. Smaller turbo, more response lower RPM = better daily. Not quite a sleeper, but all the practical of throwing a mattress in the back for Suzan or whoever.
Definitely the way to go. A great example of this is the Ford Falcon XR6 Barra BA/BF vs FG turbo. BA/BF has a 600+hp capable turbo, FG got a smaller one which made it so much nicer to drive under normal street circumstances. More response off the lights. No use having a daily with a turbo that doesnt do anything till 4500+rpm plus because youll be speeding by the time it comes on song and get your doors blown off by nanna aurion under regular driving situations. Great video.
THANK YOU FOR FINALLY VOICING MY EXACT CONCLUSION TO SMALLER TURBO SIZE DEPENDING ON DISPLACEMENT IS BETTER FOR MORE POWER!! Big turbos take too long to spool and create too much boost for smaller engines that aren't equipped with enough fuel for the boost they're attempting to give it. . I took my 99 Saab 9-5 Aero and swapped the pump and injectors before throwing a methanol tune. I had maxed the turbo I was using and went to a Garrett GT43 and did all custom brushed aluminum intercooler piping. Custom stainless header with a 3.5" rocker- dump. Greddy BOV. 17" BBS Turbo came from a buddy that blew up his car again and decided he was switching to a supercharger. Subaru WRX STI turbo will bolt directly to the stock manifold of a SAAB 9-5. But will not run without a proper tune and upgrades to compensate for the extra boost.. The 2.5L engine in that car is quite hefty! On the second setting it was at just over 22psi. All the way up it was just under 40PSI occasionally spiking But I tuned it to cut fuel if the body creeps too high... Bought the car for 2000. Sold it for $6200!! All work i did to it was in my home shop! New engine from a rear-end totaled 2000 9-5 Aero with 22K miles on it! The motor i blew up had 340,000 miles. I threw a bunch of boost at it to blow it up so I could put a better engine in her!
This is such an accurate video, me and my best mate both have g6e turbos, mine makes 410kw with a 66mm pulsar 3582, very similar to the g35-900 that was on this and his makes 650kw with a 66mm borg warner s366, 4mm doesn't sound bigger but its really 66mm tapering to 82mm in mine and 66mm tapering to 91mm in his so it is a lot bigger. I have him up to about 120kmh before he comes flying passed, I've also driven his and it's not as fun to drive it's gutless then all of a sudden you're frying the tires
the way this turbo comes on is very similar to how my 3584 comes on with my consolidated manifold on my barra but mine made 900rwhp. so punchy down low! awesome for daily driving in a manual
Personally I'm not a fan of Subaru but what hooks me in these videos is Marty's love for them. I am a huge fan of wagons and was a die hard Super Gramps fan and I will always be a Super Gramps fan but Marty's love for this Levorge is pulling me in as well as all the wrench time that went into it and both wagons looks amazing at least when they're in Marty's possession. Awesome video. Thank you.
There's a very old, yet classic, Japanese Best Motoring video on UA-cam where they features a white Toyota Supra and some Nissan Skylines. The Supra was so balanced with power and driving athletics, that the pro driver oozing in the seat! Since i first saw that video many years ago I've been biased to powerful yet balanced street cars. Balance and efficiency is king! Good job Marty and Tuning Fork🏆💪
Legit, Scotty is such an encyclopedia of knowledge. I could just listen to him talk passionately about engines all day freakin' long. P.S. Dat Ecto-1!!!
I said it with the original build, but that power and all wheel drive means this Levorg is like having a Lamborghini Murcielago wagon. Absolutely nuts. Also HOLY TORQUE! That thing's gonna tow like it's nothing. Super cool to see the nerdy part of turbo sizing. :)
Mate, that power is starting to equal something like an rs6. Might be an interesting race! So stoked for marty, also can’t wait for an rx-7/240Z episode!
I don’t know how much an rs6 has to the wheels? a stock rs6 has 600+ (630?!). most german makers have a lower output on paper than irl. Not an RS6 fan or anything, but in europe it’s just considered the king of wagons and it’s so sick the levorg is close or even better. Marty for president
I'm genuinely struggling to work out if this is an April Fool's video or not. So very well presented and not obviously tongue-in-cheek, just the nornal banter from the crew.
I remember the Zoom MAG guys talking about responsiveness on thier 32 GT-R, and how a 350hp car can have WAY more street power and usefulness compared to a dyno spec 1200hp car if you look at the power accross the power band rather than just peak power. Oh and Haltek with the ECTO-1 in the bg...we needs more vids Tuning Fork!
I don't know how far you guys have to go to get to good twisty roads but this now looks like it would be such fun in the canyons! Having that midrange grunt between corners in third and fourth gear is such a good time.
Instal air con and a new clutch - " all small stuff! " 😂😂😂 the improvement in the power curve is awesome, the Lavorg is now a street weapon 👍👍👍👏👏👏 tuning fork is The Boss
That’s why I’m keeping my FL5 Type R stock turbo. I want fast spool and response to sling shot out of corners when doing hill climbs and most of the time it’s 3rd gear.
Episodes like this one make this the best channel on UA-cam. You guys show mistakes and overcome them. You show people that bigger isn't always better. Thanks guys! Keep up the stellar work
Been watching since the eg civic “build” and I think this is the earliest I’ve caught a video after upload. Been craving an upload all week lol Finally starting to research turbos a little bit, so perfect timing! Excited to see what’s next.
Exactly…. My 12 sti hatchback is tuned to 410whp in Sport#. I rarely need that to beat 95% of the cars on the road…. I drive it daily in Sport Mode, which is only 17lbs boost and about 350whp. And Sport Mode is more than enough to light the wheels up off the line if I want. Intelligent Drive is waste gate pressure which I remember being 15lbs… but I don’t remember the dyno numbers.
This was a good episode! Practical function over street cred- Big power where you can actually use it is exhilarating and useful- Big power up top right when you have to change gear because of rpm limits rarely makes sense
A good price of education! I’ve shared to my daughter who’s an upcoming petrolhead! 👍👍 I’ve already told her the same as you’re showing others 👏👏👏👏👏 Thank you guys! 👍👍👍👍👍
He did didn't he. Put it in said thats haw you get 17lbs. Then took it out and put the 5 back in for 15lbs. I thought he would of changed it but in the bit hes closing the valve you can see the 7lb spring on the side. Wonder if he noticed in the end or just didn't and has the same problem. Wait for another video trying to find the problem when we already know haha
Noticed it as well came down to see if I was seeing things or not spring on the table looks like the 5 pound spring so probably was swapped out off camera
Nice video and effort! Impressive to be able to realize and accept a mistake and then correct it! I just recently had my -05 wrx 6spd swapped and at the same time I put a bit larger turbo on, but not that much bigger, because response it really important to me.
This was one of the best videos I've ever seen on the internet on correct turbo selection. Not just talking about it, but actually showing the difference on dyno graphs including the improvement with the turbo coming on sooner and the increase in area under the curve. It also shows why you can't just bolt on another turbo without a Scotty/Tuner and a good tunable ECU.
I'm glad you addressed the big turbo issues on the street and how bad they are. You want a responsive and low to no boost lag on the street or you will hate the car. In my opinion even the t3/t4 turbo are to big for some cars with the boost lag. The 3000gt I built I just rebuilt the motor to stock but arp bolted everything and stock turbo with full exhaust down pipes back. It made under just under 500 hp with full spool by 2k rpm. Which was 15 psi. That's double the stock boost and was a blast.
I owned an EVO6 some years ago and needed to decide on the turbo as well. We went the sane route and installed a GT3076, and on e85 it made 565 BHP (crank) which was well enough, plus the spoolup was really quick. I was very satisfied!
I love this channel since the begining, the TRD laser, and all, how far they have come, but they are still such a sound and down to earth group of lads. Scotty is one of the best tuners I have ever watched. Happy Easter everyone.
I keep checking for updates on the Levorg. I keep seeing zero…. So happy I clicked on the small turbo episode. A great lesson on bigger is not always better AND a really great update on the Levorg……. Thank you
I agree, I currently drive a stock standard twin turbo 335i n54 bmw. 300 hp is enough for a street car. It drives great as is. Although I do have a garage full of bolt on parts and the tuning adapter that will bump it up to close to 500hp. But have yet to start the horsepower journey. Great video Marty.
Totally agree. My 1.4 T-Jet with Garrett GT1446 will never be upgraded to a TD04. Might do a hybrid at some point, but I want daily drivability, quick spool-up and low down torque.
It's all about the power curve, not the power number. I've watched guys like Adam LZ, TJ Hunt for a long time. Years ago they went for max power (650-750hp+) every time with big turbos. Now, we see them going for more relatively "modest" performance (mid 500's), and better transient response with smaller turbos.
So satisfying to see achievable projects coming together. Setbacks, obstacles, trial and error… but on a car any of us could actually own. That’s the kind of inspiration at home budget minded builders need. Love it dudes✌️
23:00 what should we do? Put timing in down low to stand it up even faster, then keep it low out the back with a few more pounds. You've got a table flat dyno run. Well done!
That’s an awesome result guys. When you factor in losses through an all wheel drive drive train you’re probably getting onto 8-900hp at the crank…that’s not mucking around.
Yeah, I am Agree with you, smaller turbo really good at reduce lag time, the rest let that engine do the rest HP and let it hit it optimise temp and oil pressure and the rest is attack those corner with ur driving style HF
![GT-R Powered 240Z [Dyno Disaster]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/844PvOyhv0g/mqdefault.jpg)
![GT-R Powered 240Z [Dyno Disaster]](/img/tr.png)
Grab yourself a Super garage shirt from the MCM shop, we’ll send it from our shed to you! mightycarmods.com/products/supergarage-tee-shirt
6:56 does he put the wrong spring back in and get 15?
WAGONS 4 LIFE M8!! 🔥🔥🔥
This is why i like my T-LEG 1993 turbo spool at 1800 RPM on the power Mode so fun in a city
Marty i have an issue and i may have to look back at your old legacy wagon turbo video
I have the same exact 17 inch wheel but I have some rubbing issue on back did you use spacer to fix it i don't recall?
I need that ECTO-1
This is (for me) the perfect car. Practical and fun! TYVM! Selling??? jk
After so many years of watching these two, it's like hanging out with mates. I'd live to have a beer and chat with them. Great blokes. Always love the chill Marty has.
I'm always a bit worried that one day I will see them at a kebab shop, I will just sit down at the table with them and start chatting like we are old mates. They'll proceed to think I am a weirdo.
@@abcdefgh1 It's called parasocial relationships - check out Moog's feature he did talking about it on ABC's All In The Mind podcast.
@@abcdefgh1 mate, name one car person who ISN'T at least slightly weird. I know i am.
@@justaclosedaccount 💯🎯👌
Yeah im surpirsed mcm even still had this problem. People care too much about peak numbers for a street car. Response is king.
Response is everything.
There's way less H6's getting around than say 2.5 WRX's for example, each manifold design is different, built engine comp ratio comes into it, so often we're taking an educated guess at what turbo it needs. It would have kept making big numbers up to and over 30psi with the old turbo but i knew that wasn't what i wanted from the car to get the most enjoyment out of it on the street, which is where i want to spend the time!
Fully agree 👍
Yep, a flatter curve beats one with a big hill at the top end.
Tyre friers are gonna fry tyres
I love to see Martin satisfied and savour his accomplishments!
That’s what Cheryl said
@@AdamBond-cd9cz 🤣
When I was doing my apprenticeship as an engine reconditioner back in the 90s, if someone had 450hp in a street car they were a major baller who had spent a not-so-small fortune on theirr car, and their car was ridiculously lumpy, undrivable, and overheated at the first sight of traffic. Now you can get 600hp out of a Subaru quite easily and affordably. The future is great.
Not one thing in this car is affordable
@@byron1dagg80 Compared to what you would spend in the 90s for 600hp it is actually quite cheap.
more todo with engine management tuning , alloy block is weak. thats why your better off with a fiat tc race proven or a Mitsubishi evo lump off the bat. uphill proven .
@@acidtechno engine management has certainly played a huge role, back then my engine management was a screwdriver which I would have to get out weekly to get my Webbers running briefly sweetly.
Engines are just better designed and made with stronger components made from better materials these days. Back then if you didn't own a GTR or a WRX or Evo, and if you did you were minted, you'd be looking at aftermarket blocks, cranks, cylinder heads, roller cams and rockers for a small block Chev, it was only when the LS came in and became ubiquitous that 600hp became fairly easy to achieve and affordableish.
Cars didn't stop or handle very well back then so it was probably a good thing horsepower was so expensive.
Shits changed.
I had a 450hp skylight that drove great after a big engine rebuild.
Now I have an M3 that would destroy that skyline everywhere, and it’s a nice car.
The base cars are so much better now, I like how far OEMs have come.
After over a decade of watching MCM religiously, I will never get over how Scott makes Marty look like a little kid sitting in the passenger seat 😂 Thank you for keeping the Levorg series going, and thanks for another great video! Love from the USA
Just for anyone curious as it wasnt really explained during the conversation with Scotty on the phone @3:08. You may be wondering why the big turbo (g35-900) was too big and made the Subaru feel laggy but Marty said it would be perfect for the RX7, even though the RX7 has a smaller displacement engine (3.0 vs 1.3/2.6). That would be because the rotary engine in the RX7 produces a lot more exhaust gas than piston engines like the one seen in the Subaru. This has numerous downsides but notable in this scenario it does wonders for spooling turbos.
13b essentially acts like a 2 stroke v6. Just remember to fill the oil and check the gas
Yeah, it's a well known fact that Rotary's need large Turbos. Especially on the hot side. They flow way more exhaust, and back pressure affects them horribly. 👍
The eccentric shaft is also geared and spins 1.5x more per rotor than rotation, so the 1.3*1.5*2 = 3.9 liters. That's why they get such poor fuel economy and big power. It's not 1.3L is really a 4L engine lol.
Its not a 1.3, its a 3.9 measured how you measure a 4 stroke engine. Which then explains the exhaust gas.
@@IamGearboy The eccentric shaft is geared 3:1 to the rotor. It has nothing to do with the VE.
I could listen to Scotty talk about turbo efficiency all day. Dude is an ELI5 expert.
Having a smaller turbo built for street use is way more fun on the street. Big turbos are only built for top end power on the drag strip. This is why I went with the smaller hybrid turbo on my stage 3 MK7 Golf R. I make 20-30whp less on top end but 500-800rpm sooner spool time for road course use.
Which turbo?
I’d love to know this as well
It is a built engine. It is still a Subaru engine so it could blow up...
Best marty quote so far 😂
With the STI, go to sport # then hold down traction control for 3s. Will see "trac mode" in green light up on centre clutster. Disable traction control completely.
I keep pounding the table on this; follow the compressor map for your power goal, give yourself enough compressor so that you're smack dab in the middle or a touch to the right if you want more response, that will almost never lead you astray. I swapped a T28 for a GT15 on both my Sportster and a customers Buell, it's so snappy it's like riding a big inch n/a bike.....pulls to 7,500rpm too, and the graph was still straight up! Snappy turbo setups are where it's at for pump-gas street cars/bikes. The bigger turbo's don't start to come into their own until you really start leaning on it. You can actually make more power everywhere, on the same boost with a smaller turbo if it's a better match for your combination. Cheers!
This is a perfect example of why my 2.3 Evo with a billet 60mm HX40 Holset and a .82ar V band housing is WAY more fun on the street than my 2.0 DSM was with a PTE 6262 and .82ar t3 housing. Plus the DSM was auto so even more boring, but it was a whole lot more rowdy on the 1/4!
The difficult part with turbo motors isn't just the size of the turbo, but creating a linear power delivery that is actually enjoyable and doesn't die off at X RPM...
I mean, whilst that is affected by cam choice, inlet/exhaust design, head flow etc, that is massively dictated by turbo sizing, particularly in relation to the engine capacity.
linear power delivery = flat torque. fiesta st with s280 turbo graph looks just about ideal
@@ikbendusanFlat torque is smooth and easy to drive, but it doesn't _feel_ fast.
@@ferrumignis depends how fast the power builds
@@ferrumignis Feels faster than torque dying off from the middle of the power band on!
I have watched you guys for years and never left a comment, but now is the time. Great to see you get this project back on track. I always thought Super Gramps was your best build and the Levorg is now starting to get close. Love to see more content on this build.
This is why ‘standard’ evos are so fast. Fuel pump, injectors, cam, springs, lifters, good boost controller and wastegate, cop kit, stock turbo running 22/23 pounds and you will get over 230kw. Doesn’t sound like a whole lot but the size of the stock turbo it has all the response. Power as soon as you hit the go pedal is always better than peak power for any street car.
Also light, awd, they have a strong iron block. Very easy to modify too
I have an Evo X, tuned for 300kw ATW. Not too slow, not too fast, nothing overstressed. Best car ever.
@@felixjones9198 balanced, if you wanna go faster just get a bike. Evo has good awd
@@oldfashionedwrx3574not everyone wants a death trap on 2 wheels. Anyone can be fast on a bike. Being fast in a 3500+ lbs car is a totally different thing.
I’ve got a mk6 GTI and a simple jump to the golf R k04 turbo was a fantastic jump in power. I considered going bigger but I had this exact conversation with friends and other golf owners.
The car is incredibly feisty and feels incredible with just that “small” increase.
So good to hear such an influential channel encouraging smaller turbos, even if it made less peak power, it's not all about those numbers that people just wanna flex!
I have an S15 Spec R that makes 408hp on a little GT2871R. I'm preparing it to take on track this year as it's fun to drive on the back roads of the UK (that aren't shit) and I've had so many people tell me it needs more power - but the reason I'm taking it on track is because even 408hp in a 1200kg car feels like it's mostly unusable!
I've said that anything over 450hp would not be usable on our roads, in my opinion, except for straight line rolling start acceleration - and even then, it's a push, since they have no traction control.
UA-cam ate my comment, but I had been tracking my Turbo MR2 for close to ten years and when it came to needing en engine build I had a block that was capable of 600+ power figures and a turbo that could do 400+
In the end I realised that just on the std ecu and fuelling the 300 it made was about what I could actually handle on track and even on wet days I’d be turning the boost down anyway.
I’ve been in the MR2 scene for years and youd see so many people spend money and time on 600 and upwards builds only to either barely use them or sell em off after finishing.
On the road for me 300 was enough for the odd b road blast and after I started doing trackdays I really slowed down on the road. It’s funny because the mr2 looked like a weapon with a wing, carbon bodywork, noisy track pads etc but usually just driven very sedately on the road.
It's all about "power under the curve". If you've got 400hp it might not sound impressive, but how about 400lb-ft torque from 2,000RPM to 6,000RPM. Different story.
@@milescarter7803 I am aware, I've seen all their videos about dyno reading, as well as Rob Dahm's 🤣 my turbo starts spooling around 2000rpm and is on full boost at 3100, so I have the rest of the rev range (up to 7000rpm) on full boost. I obviously can't upload pictures here but my graph doesn't look too dissimilar to Marty's in this video - I'd say just under 2/3 of the curve is on max power 👌
2871rs Suck on s15's you need a much newer turbo ! Anything efr or atleast a G25-550. Even the new hks GTIII-RS a/r0.60 the replacement for the gtrs which was a 2871r is a lot more responsive and makes more power would be an easy upgrade its a direct bolt on for you!
@@RTSRAZORBACKActually you can add photos, go to your channel and select the community tab.
The Opening shot with Marty with "Supergramps Mark 2" is enough to save my day.
You guys are a part of my life whether you like it or not.
That power curve = a lot of chopping at the lights 💪🏻
This wagon, Mt kosciuszko..... beautiful, the ultimate ski wagon.
Might need gentle right foot in the snow...
Indeed!
The tiny Mitsubishi TD04 turbo in my Tommy kaira M20b's closed-deck EJ20 is absolutely savage! It hits 1-bar of boost at 3,000 rpm. It surges to 1.1-bar every time I stab the throttle, which kicks me in the back, and then the boost drops to a sustained 0.9-bar. Above 4,000 it boosts almost instantly, and pulls hard.
I would never swap it out!
You have an M20b? That's sick!
Got a sweet td04 going in my little punto too, 260bhp in a 1100kg italian nugget
I'm still rocking the stock TD04-13t that came in my 05 wrx because I wanted the turbo to be the limiting factor vs the rods when it comes to how much power I can make. Mine comes on at about 2500rpm and I can't imagine having all that much more turbo lag that comes with a bigger turbo. Though, it would be cool to hit 300whp, or even the gentleman's agreement 276whp
This makes all too much sense for that kind of ride. I like to call it the "Bentley Principle". No, a Bentley doesn't need a 6 and 3/4 liter engine to get from A to B. But what a Bentley needs to do is make everything it does look effortless. Having to ring the nuts off a car to get into the power band isn't effortless. It isn't what you want out of an estate.
You know what I'm over? Not seeing 2Sexy!
Bring back the other turbo nugget!
The importance and implications of turbo size selection is well-known, especially on boosted platforms. Boost threshold and transient response are just as important (and sometimes even more so) than power capability. Glad to see you made a wise choice in the end in light of how the car is driven.
yep, their initial turbo selection was obviously going to be oversized and laggy and was designed for 2+bar boost on a 3L. A 2minute eyeball of the compressor map shows that.
that ECTO-1 though
belongs to one of the guys at haltech, www.streetmachine.com.au/events/blown-ls3-powered-ghostbusters-ecto-1-replica
Yeah that thru me
Went to comment section to find this one
It was supposed to go to the old garage..
8:50 There is something strange in Scotty's neighborhood
One of the best compliments I've gotten about my turbo FTO after I had someone set up the coilovers properly (and he had to drive it to the alignment shop), was his surprise when I said it only made barely over 150kW at the wheels. Twin TD03s on the 6A13 are tiny, it does roll over as you'd expect at the top, but torque is almost flat up to 5000RPM, and it still doesn't feel horribly sluggish to hit 7000. And I haven't even turned the boost up yet!
Yeah, I been saying this for a long time. Peak Power sells, but it's the torque and powerband that wins. The bigger the turbo, the more spool lag and the shorter the usable powerband. Great for drag racing... anything else not so much.
'No AC and I need a new clutch - just little things'. Whish I felt that way about my car. Repair AC $1500. Replace clutch $500 if I did it myself. So good that the car is almost there and makes you smile though 🙂
just wind the windows down
👍👍
AC is overrated unless it's your only car lol
Pull the motor instead of dropping that tranny... You don't even need to drain the coolant if you can get that hoist on the block, but it's easier w the intercooler off.
Marty, the rear housing on the G35-900 and the G35-770 is the same. "G35" is the rear housing frame size. The 900 and 770 correlate to the compressor flow capacity. A G30-900 would give you nice response with the small rear housing (55mm turbine) but still keep the hp potential (62mm compressor).
Awesome sleeper build. Even pulled the legends in on this one. Smaller turbo, more response lower RPM = better daily.
Not quite a sleeper, but all the practical of throwing a mattress in the back for Suzan or whoever.
Definitely the way to go. A great example of this is the Ford Falcon XR6 Barra BA/BF vs FG turbo. BA/BF has a 600+hp capable turbo, FG got a smaller one which made it so much nicer to drive under normal street circumstances. More response off the lights. No use having a daily with a turbo that doesnt do anything till 4500+rpm plus because youll be speeding by the time it comes on song and get your doors blown off by nanna aurion under regular driving situations. Great video.
Fantastic work mate and good on you for downsizing on the turbo to make it a more enjoyable car on the street. Cheers
THANK YOU FOR FINALLY VOICING MY EXACT CONCLUSION TO SMALLER TURBO SIZE DEPENDING ON DISPLACEMENT IS BETTER FOR MORE POWER!! Big turbos take too long to spool and create too much boost for smaller engines that aren't equipped with enough fuel for the boost they're attempting to give it. .
I took my 99 Saab 9-5 Aero and swapped the pump and injectors before throwing a methanol tune. I had maxed the turbo I was using and went to a Garrett GT43 and did all custom brushed aluminum intercooler piping. Custom stainless header with a 3.5" rocker- dump. Greddy BOV. 17" BBS
Turbo came from a buddy that blew up his car again and decided he was switching to a supercharger. Subaru WRX STI turbo will bolt directly to the stock manifold of a SAAB 9-5. But will not run without a proper tune and upgrades to compensate for the extra boost.. The 2.5L engine in that car is quite hefty! On the second setting it was at just over 22psi. All the way up it was just under 40PSI occasionally spiking But I tuned it to cut fuel if the body creeps too high... Bought the car for 2000. Sold it for $6200!! All work i did to it was in my home shop! New engine from a rear-end totaled 2000 9-5 Aero with 22K miles on it! The motor i blew up had 340,000 miles. I threw a bunch of boost at it to blow it up so I could put a better engine in her!
Holy shit.... I went off on a tangent....🤣
That ECTO-1 @ 8:49! 🤩
Yeah, was going to mention it too! Haltec has a side gig. They need to go bust all the strangeness in the background of many MCM vids.
Need them to come by and deal with the haunted rolling shop-stool at the old MCM shop.
Guys that content was awesome 👌 food for thought.
This is such an accurate video, me and my best mate both have g6e turbos, mine makes 410kw with a 66mm pulsar 3582, very similar to the g35-900 that was on this and his makes 650kw with a 66mm borg warner s366, 4mm doesn't sound bigger but its really 66mm tapering to 82mm in mine and 66mm tapering to 91mm in his so it is a lot bigger. I have him up to about 120kmh before he comes flying passed, I've also driven his and it's not as fun to drive it's gutless then all of a sudden you're frying the tires
the way this turbo comes on is very similar to how my 3584 comes on with my consolidated manifold on my barra but mine made 900rwhp. so punchy down low! awesome for daily driving in a manual
Personally I'm not a fan of Subaru but what hooks me in these videos is Marty's love for them. I am a huge fan of wagons and was a die hard Super Gramps fan and I will always be a Super Gramps fan but Marty's love for this Levorge is pulling me in as well as all the wrench time that went into it and both wagons looks amazing at least when they're in Marty's possession. Awesome video. Thank you.
Isn’t that awesome? Perfect result. Such an epic example and proof of concept. Advancing the community with this knowledge. Nice job guys!
I so appreciate how you share your thoughts and how doing one change affects the entire operating range.
There's a very old, yet classic, Japanese Best Motoring video on UA-cam where they features a white Toyota Supra and some Nissan Skylines. The Supra was so balanced with power and driving athletics, that the pro driver oozing in the seat! Since i first saw that video many years ago I've been biased to powerful yet balanced street cars. Balance and efficiency is king! Good job Marty and Tuning Fork🏆💪
Amuse Supra. Awesome car!
Legit, Scotty is such an encyclopedia of knowledge. I could just listen to him talk passionately about engines all day freakin' long. P.S. Dat Ecto-1!!!
I said it with the original build, but that power and all wheel drive means this Levorg is like having a Lamborghini Murcielago wagon. Absolutely nuts. Also HOLY TORQUE! That thing's gonna tow like it's nothing.
Super cool to see the nerdy part of turbo sizing. :)
Minus the V12 eargasm mind you.
Still massive props to scotty and marty, and indeed, that thing will rip the hitch right off any trailer :P
Mate, that power is starting to equal something like an rs6. Might be an interesting race! So stoked for marty, also can’t wait for an rx-7/240Z episode!
Way more power at the wheels than a stock RS6.
And around 400kg less curb weight...
I don’t know how much an rs6 has to the wheels? a stock rs6 has 600+ (630?!). most german makers have a lower output on paper than irl. Not an RS6 fan or anything, but in europe it’s just considered the king of wagons and it’s so sick the levorg is close or even better. Marty for president
I'm genuinely struggling to work out if this is an April Fool's video or not.
So very well presented and not obviously tongue-in-cheek, just the nornal banter from the crew.
They'd be a day ahead I think.
Sub 11 hypergramps? 👀
Would love to see on the 2nd channel a sound vid again with this car. I just love that unique echaust sound.
I remember the Zoom MAG guys talking about responsiveness on thier 32 GT-R, and how a 350hp car can have WAY more street power and usefulness compared to a dyno spec 1200hp car if you look at the power accross the power band rather than just peak power. Oh and Haltek with the ECTO-1 in the bg...we needs more vids Tuning Fork!
I don't know how far you guys have to go to get to good twisty roads but this now looks like it would be such fun in the canyons! Having that midrange grunt between corners in third and fourth gear is such a good time.
Instal air con and a new clutch - " all small stuff! " 😂😂😂 the improvement in the power curve is awesome, the Lavorg is now a street weapon 👍👍👍👏👏👏 tuning fork is The Boss
That’s why I’m keeping my FL5 Type R stock turbo. I want fast spool and response to sling shot out of corners when doing hill climbs and most of the time it’s 3rd gear.
8:50 casual Ghostbusters Ecto 1 just chillin!
Episodes like this one make this the best channel on UA-cam. You guys show mistakes and overcome them. You show people that bigger isn't always better. Thanks guys! Keep up the stellar work
Been watching since the eg civic “build” and I think this is the earliest I’ve caught a video after upload. Been craving an upload all week lol
Finally starting to research turbos a little bit, so perfect timing!
Excited to see what’s next.
Exactly…. My 12 sti hatchback is tuned to 410whp in Sport#. I rarely need that to beat 95% of the cars on the road…. I drive it daily in Sport Mode, which is only 17lbs boost and about 350whp. And Sport Mode is more than enough to light the wheels up off the line if I want. Intelligent Drive is waste gate pressure which I remember being 15lbs… but I don’t remember the dyno numbers.
love seeing this project coming together
This was a good episode! Practical function over street cred- Big power where you can actually use it is exhilarating and useful- Big power up top right when you have to change gear because of rpm limits rarely makes sense
Dude, youre making me wanna build one. Everything about this Levorg is what i want in a fun street / track car.
A good price of education! I’ve shared to my daughter who’s an upcoming petrolhead! 👍👍
I’ve already told her the same as you’re showing others 👏👏👏👏👏
Thank you guys! 👍👍👍👍👍
Am I the only one noticing Marty puts the 5lb spring back in the waste gate just before saying he's going for 17?
@7:05
He did didn't he. Put it in said thats haw you get 17lbs. Then took it out and put the 5 back in for 15lbs.
I thought he would of changed it but in the bit hes closing the valve you can see the 7lb spring on the side.
Wonder if he noticed in the end or just didn't and has the same problem.
Wait for another video trying to find the problem when we already know haha
Noticed it as well came down to see if I was seeing things or not
spring on the table looks like the 5 pound spring so probably was swapped out off camera
Thanks for the vid,
Couple questions?
Is it a g30-700? Couldn't find a g35-700
Assuming pump fuel not e85?
What camshafts are in the engine?
Almost thought this was a april fools video from the lads, cheering its not yeahhhh the LÈVORG
I wish Scotty would run a YT channel. He is a good teacher and I learn very much on standard knowledge, when he shows up in your videos
Always great content. Watching all the way from Swakopmund Namibia.
Few people would know where that is... Lovely place!
Nice video and effort! Impressive to be able to realize and accept a mistake and then correct it!
I just recently had my -05 wrx 6spd swapped and at the same time I put a bit larger turbo on, but not that much bigger, because response it really important to me.
Le-Frog + Turbo nice.. but OMG ECTO1 in the background that looks mad need to know more!!
Marty put a link to a comment above, it's owned by one of the guy's at Haltech
Been there myself Marty. Ran smaller turbochargers than my rivals, but was happy with the way it drove. It always impressed others.
This was one of the best videos I've ever seen on the internet on correct turbo selection. Not just talking about it, but actually showing the difference on dyno graphs including the improvement with the turbo coming on sooner and the increase in area under the curve.
It also shows why you can't just bolt on another turbo without a Scotty/Tuner and a good tunable ECU.
I'm glad you addressed the big turbo issues on the street and how bad they are. You want a responsive and low to no boost lag on the street or you will hate the car. In my opinion even the t3/t4 turbo are to big for some cars with the boost lag. The 3000gt I built I just rebuilt the motor to stock but arp bolted everything and stock turbo with full exhaust down pipes back. It made under just under 500 hp with full spool by 2k rpm. Which was 15 psi. That's double the stock boost and was a blast.
Could you guys do a comparison of a twin scroll vs a single scroll turbo? It be really interesting to see how the power curve changes
Felt the background music missing a tiny bit strange, but love this video still. This'll be one of my most fav MCM vids.
Displacement and boost, thats why i love my twin turbo V8 AMG!
I owned an EVO6 some years ago and needed to decide on the turbo as well. We went the sane route and installed a GT3076, and on e85 it made 565 BHP (crank) which was well enough, plus the spoolup was really quick. I was very satisfied!
Thats such a sick power curve, with that crazy torque curve this thing would boogy past a lot of cars even on track haha
Love when these 2 are on the dyno. So much great information.
Absolutely love the levorg, this is exactly what im looking for in my stagea i love the practical fun car this is the best
I love this channel since the begining, the TRD laser, and all, how far they have come, but they are still such a sound and down to earth group of lads. Scotty is one of the best tuners I have ever watched. Happy Easter everyone.
Next episode on MCM "Marty replaces another subaru gearbox"...
No need to be pessimistic though, he might just snap an axel ;)
Naah, this one is the 6-speed STi unit. They're heaps strong, it's the 5-speed that is made of glass.
The sti 6spds are tanks, generally.
@@musewolfmanthey still break lol, especially with high torque low down
Not enough to break it
I keep checking for updates on the Levorg. I keep seeing zero…. So happy I clicked on the small turbo episode. A great lesson on bigger is not always better AND a really great update on the Levorg……. Thank you
Thank you for the video MCM!
I agree, I currently drive a stock standard twin turbo 335i n54 bmw.
300 hp is enough for a street car. It drives great as is.
Although I do have a garage full of bolt on parts and the tuning adapter that will bump it up to close to 500hp. But have yet to start the horsepower journey.
Great video Marty.
Great engine ugly car
Marty keeps teasing us with RX7 content.
Been working on it consistently since late last year, just prefer to do a video thats denser with more happening than vlog my breakfast
How do you do your production planning? Would love to see a blog post about that
@@mightycarmodsthat's ok but what WAS for breakfast?
Totally agree. My 1.4 T-Jet with Garrett GT1446 will never be upgraded to a TD04. Might do a hybrid at some point, but I want daily drivability, quick spool-up and low down torque.
It's all about the power curve, not the power number. I've watched guys like Adam LZ, TJ Hunt for a long time. Years ago they went for max power (650-750hp+) every time with big turbos. Now, we see them going for more relatively "modest" performance (mid 500's), and better transient response with smaller turbos.
what I love is that it's not an insanely loud exhaust on E85 nonsense. It's driveable and puts a smile on your face.
Ecto 1 at Halltech 😮 Sweeeeet!
So satisfying to see achievable projects coming together. Setbacks, obstacles, trial and error… but on a car any of us could actually own. That’s the kind of inspiration at home budget minded builders need. Love it dudes✌️
Early bird gets the mcm worm
23:00 what should we do? Put timing in down low to stand it up even faster, then keep it low out the back with a few more pounds. You've got a table flat dyno run. Well done!
0:02 Mine goes up and to the left. 🤷♂️
Rightsizing works wonders, and I'm so glad you shed more light on it!
Scotty is a treat as always
Love your videos bro ❤
The ghostbusters car just chillin in the background at haltex
Why we didn't get this car in the states baffles me.
You got the ascent and tribeca that we never got instead.
That’s an awesome result guys. When you factor in losses through an all wheel drive drive train you’re probably getting onto 8-900hp at the crank…that’s not mucking around.
I think you just put the 5 psi spring back in
"we are going to go with 17" and puts the 5lb in
At 7:20 you can see the 7lb spring in there.
Nah, maybe not clear from the shot order but its at 17 now.
Awh when Scotty appears, you know it's gonna be a good episode 🙏🏽🙏🏽
Why doesn't Scotty have his own show? I could listen to him all day. Mad props to him!
So Nice to hear Al on the phone. He is my favourite.
Yeah, I am Agree with you, smaller turbo really good at reduce lag time, the rest let that engine do the rest HP and let it hit it optimise temp and oil pressure and the rest is attack those corner with ur driving style HF
The amount of blades and angle of the blades on the turbine inducer/exducer is what matters, not just the size of the housings........