The Unfixable Maps of CSGO - Dust and Aztec
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- Опубліковано 21 сер 2022
- CSGO has a lot of the best maps ever made in video game history. However, CS is an ancient franchise (pun intended) (i hate myself). A lot of the older maps within CS are not exactly up to the standard anymore, and thus were removed from competetive play. Now, after 5 years, it is clear that Dust and Aztec are not coming back, deemed unfixable by valve. But was this correct of valve? Could these maps have been fixed? all is answered in this video. It's all just my opinion though!
If you read this, comment "HeatoN's Ace on Aztec is worth keeping it around"
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Music used:
At the Race Track - Everhood
Flower Shop - Everhood
1-09 Kitsch - Tekken
Enjoy your Stay - Earthbound
#CSGO #Esports #Penguin - Ігри
One thing I feel you didn’t touch on is how much of the map can change before it loses its identity as that map. Vertigo never had a storied history that gave it it’s identity so the community embraced changes much easier. When maps like Dust II change (notably the blocked view from T spawn) they seem drastic and are harder to accept. Changing the layouts of Dust and Aztec may have worked in getting them viable, but the changes would probably would have to have been great enough to alter the map such that it wouldn’t be recognizable as the original map to those who had played it so many times before.
I don't even know why they're mad the wall on dust II was already there in a previous version, i don't remember if it was source or 1.6 but it did already exist. And the map was broken if you had an AWP as a T.
@@revan22 It was 1.6
@@garfieldh.8820 Yeah but there was still a small gap you could see through, now you need to jump down and boost
I think Ancient replaces Aztec.
Aztec has the worst choke points on all 3 paths, it's almost impossible to go out of Double doors without getting sniped, the bridge is a death trap and you may succeed going through water ways if you are lucky. Absolutely CT sided.
The same can be said about Dust I.
8:30 I remember kliksphillip talking about this and used an extreme example to separate balance from playability. He made a 1v1 test map where the T and CT spawn on opposite sides of a wall that can't be shot through, and that was the entire map. It's perfectly competitive, sure, but it's probably the least fun map you could play.
I play rather unbalanced maps and weapons than soulless and equal to the point where nothing matters
@@greatbullet7372 It may be your preference, but, there's nothing like soul less map. I'd much rather play equal and fun map as vertigo than unbalanced and weird map like Dust competitively. Unbalanced maps should stay, but, only in casual gamemode.
Yeah, I'd rather have a somewhat unbalanced map that has a lot of character and takes a more unique approach than something boring and safe. It's one of the issues I have with a lot of the newer maps. It feels like they don't take enough risks. What is the defining feature of the map that makes it memorable?
What about the 2 towers in UT ? :)
@@padrongod1542 this is why we have both. because no one agrees. we have office in the comp map pool, and we have vertigo, two extremes, and can both be fun
Aztec was fun back in the day when csgo was released. I played csgo so casually, ranked silver 1 on csgo, and loved Aztec. Everything was so easy back in the days!
why silver1
Yeah same for me. Back in the days when I played mm for fun, aztec was one of the best maps. :)
Aztec was always boring and unplayable, so glad is never coming back
Feel like everyone relates on Csgo used to just feel easier, no matter how much better I am right now I still feel like casual is way better than what I remember haha
Same here. A good chunk of my hours were from the first year the game was out. Played so many matches on Aztec and Dust 1.
My problem with the removal of these two maps is, that yes for highly skilled players the maps are bad but being in a lower rank and playing the game more casually i loved these maps. So many interesting strategies that you could try (that would never work against high skilled players). All the other maps are kinda just the same thing in a different colour
yea, i feel like having an extra casual playlist wouldn't hurt much. these are the maps me and many others grew up with (1.1-1.6) and preserving that part of cs would have been commendable.
Competitive ruins every game it touches, once there's such thing as a "pro player" the game goes to shit
@@redbullsauberpetronas what game is closest to unruined version of csgo? Cs 1.6 and css no longer has pro players so they should be fine for casual play, no?
@@ode4014 the damage has been done
@@redbullsauberpetronas you are completely right
its a shame valve didn't succeed in remaking Aztec. instead of another 3lane map, which isn't even that good, we could have had a return of a classic, reinvigorated.
i think the problem was they wanted it to ship with broken fang which didn't give them enough time, and not that Aztec was not fixable. valve in general does not get enough credit for how capable they are with map remakes. although the point made in the video about maps being viable but not fun (to watch) is a possible problem
Why didn't valve pick up the Aztec 2 concept from the original Aztec cretor? It really seemed an interesting map. Ancient is just a boring map really, it looks like your tipical cs 3 lane map with Aztec textures on top of it. Like a masked dust2
@@migs6073 i see what you mean but i have to say that ancient, despite being a safe by the books layout, still works really well and i really enjoy playing and watching matches on it.
@@matsko6527 idk i only hate it because my PC can't run it higher than 40fps
@@bartsussygaming487 ah yeah o know the feeling, had the same thing when the nuke remake came out.
@@bartsussygaming487 yeah we should be getting a lot more fps, I remembr my old PC dying on Nuke and any New map was 10fps average
HEY YES I MIXED UP COBBLE AND AZTEC. AZTEC WAS MADE BY CHRIS AUTY NOT DAVE JOHNSTON! don’t mean to misattribute anyones work, that is my bad.
Discrepancy occurs right when i first mention Aztec.
Can I give some theme suggestions?
@@Hagebuddne983 feel free
@@PenguinCS2 So I thought of some interesting ones:
What about other maps like Cobble, Agency, Assault, Militia or Italy that have been removed over the years. And what you think of the whole remove Mirage thing.
Or other gamemodes like Flying Scoutsman (aka Scoutsknivez), Arms Race or Gungame. What about zombie or jailbreak? Would love to hear your opinions on Danger Zone too.
As for weapons maybe M4A4 vs M4A1 over the years or Krieg and AUG or the AWP-nerf or jumpscouting or the revolver update or hell even the M249.
Cbbl is called cobblestone? Why that?
@@__Mr.White__ bc there was an 8 character limit for the map names in 1.6
aztec on 1.6 was amazing and even better on 1.5, good old days man
Yep.. another 20 year steam account owner? Also, vertigo sucked and even though I probably had 10k hours in 1.5 and 1.6 and CZ.. no one ever played that fucking map.
Dust, Aztec, assault. Best maps, 1.5 will always be my favorite cs. Only thing that comes close for me is CS:S office. Hopefully CS2 will rekindle my love.
@@utewbdupdate pleez
@@utewbdi recently played assault in 1.1 on the single server for that version of the game. And I mean I loved assault as a kid. But holy shit it sucks massive balls as a map nowadays
@@KeksimusMaximus Yeah it's too easy for Ts, I like it out of pure nostalgia.
As an old timer who stopped playing CS decades ago I miss my de_dust, cs_siege, cs_mansion and cs_militia so much.
I like Aztec but dislike Ancient. I understand why Aztec has the issues it does, but I wish they would have used a few familiar elements of Aztec in Ancient and called it Aztec 2. Like how you mentioned in the video that parts of Dust 1 feel like proto versions of Dust 2 elements. Ancient doesn't really feel like a followup to Aztec at all which is what I wanted out of it.
De_contra is aztec2 and de_ancient is aztec3.
Contra was a competitive map
There's a fan remake of de_dust called de_dust_suncsm, playable in 1.6 or Condition Zero. IMO it fixes lots of the problems typically associated with de_dust
Very good video, but It's important to remember that at that time the 5x5 was not that common. An 16x16 Aztec map was very fun and the T could (not easily, thus the fun of Aztec) run over any choke point with not enough CTs. It was one of the most fun and playable maps. I believe that E-sports was not in anyones mind and fun took over fairness. Today these maps are unplayable.
also teams were naturally unbalanced and no necessarily fixed - people might come and go and change teams to get a better balance, or even stack slightly more people on the losing side, so map balance wasn't as central on a lan game for example
I grew up with cs 1.3.. playing de aztec and dust 1 with so many players.. some gaming cafe had 60 PC.. so its 30 vs 30.. no internet, LAN only.. walking was not exist back then.. everone running, shooting, throwing granade.. no headset, speaker only.. you can destroy ur eardrum if u enter an gaming cafe.. what a moment..
truth, going pure esports brain has ruined and taken the most of the fun maps out of counter-strike. they didn't think to add all the maps back for at least casual. just straight up purged them
I find it odd how nobody talks about cs_compound, a map with a unique aesthetic that was also lost when moving to CSGO.
so many good memories made on that map when first played css
Anyone that remembers this map is at minimum 30 years old now 😂
@@munch3405 I remember it, I'm twenty five.
@@munch3405 I know it and I’m 16 lol but only cus I hop on css every once and a while… I think hostage rescue just isn’t viable if you are trying to play seriously at all which is the flaws of all the older hostage maps
@@munch340524 and Ik
vertigo was an experimental type map in its first iteration, but after the big valve refresh they effectively turned it into a 3 lane map.
Much more so than inerno.
the minimap doesnt even work properly, canals and vertigo were the biggest mistakes from valve, ancient and anubis are not so great, but they are at leats playable
@@eduardoalbornoz2718 interesting take, all of the maps you've listed (apart from canals lol) are some of people's favourite maps. personally a big fan of verti, nuke and ancient
@@Tommo_ I find nuke fun vertigo pisses me off a lot just because how short mid is which allows annoying ct nades and rushes
There was a time in 2016 where you could queue up a game of matchmaking on italy, assault, militia, aztec. . . old times dude, I miss those maps. I guess they were removed because a lot of people didn't play them? But there were active communities on those maps. I remember when they actually reworked militia and it became much more balanced, it was incredible. You had a lot of fun on these maps, cause most hardcore players didn't know them so you had parties where people had no idea how to move about or what spots to check. It made for a very enjoyable experience. Office just doesn't click as much with me, and of the new additions only vertigo really stands out as a "fun" map. I wish they added these maps back in a specific hostage playlist with separate ranking, so you could still play them in matchmaking.
I wish there were still some more unconventional maps that weren't entirely balanced for pro-play. The hyper emphasis on pro-play is fine, but a few non-rotation competitive maps would be nice. That feeling of "everybody is new" is the best and is something the older maps sorely lack and will never get back.
Great video as always!
Keep up the good work!
Great video!
Editing was really smooth and the info and delivery is great!
Subbed and looking forward to new content :)
I think Vertigo is the most fun map to watch.BTW i would love a video about Prodigy, i really like your content and the weekly uploaded videos, keep it up, almost 1k!
This video reminds me of the great works of 3klikphilip, for example the video series he did about the history and changes of maps.
Great video man!
I actually really enjoy your videos man. you deserve more popularity, thank you
I loved Aztec, always wondered what happened to this map.
Wow, I've never seen any csgo youtuber with such a distinctive style. Great choice of music and engaging commentary. This type of video essay is what csgo youtube needs right now.
I loved Aztec. They need to bring Aztec back
It'll never happen and for a very good reason.
Giving you like and sub for the quality of the video and the amount of information. You're criminally underrated. Good job
Just discovered this channel. Your videos are amazing, keep up the good work.
I've recently found your channel! I find it very well-made scripts and I love the "story" telling style. Really well done. You've earned a sub!
Very well super in-depth video!!!
i love the topics you cover too great stuff :D
but once again, nevermind
This is fantastic content. Love these deep explorations. Looking forward to more!
i got this video recommended to me and it made me go on a binge of all your vids. i was very impressed with the quality. subscribed!
Nice vids man, I subbed. Keep it up!
I think your conclusion is right on the money. Aztec and Dust require such major overhauls that the end product would be unrecognisable. Better off starting from scratch.
Found your channel today and I love your videos so much man, hope you get more recognition soon :)
The original layout of each map in the game is what defines a lot of the rounds that are played on them. I occasionally go back to playing a bit of 1.6 and I notice how some of the maps have been improved (changed). Inferno and Cbble also had some issues, mainly useless areas and/or obstacles that had more of a negative impact on the flow of the game. Inferno being closer to a 3-lane map had an easier time throughout the years. Cbble was extremely experimental and it felt more like an adventure game map than a competitive shooter map, and it was the most unreconizeable when it moved over to CSGO. Prodigy almost felt like what Breach was in 2019. I've tried theorizing what changes could make Aztec and Dust better, but without losing their identities in a complete overhaul it's pretty much an impossible task.
I played Aztec a lot! It had it's own learning curve, I loved it.
These is the quality content i was waiting to be conducted to, nice videos.
Damn I'm really happy that your videos got suggested to me! Great content man!
I miss de_dust a lot.
Same they bring to bring back Aztec and Dust.
Yes so many memories. Dust was the first map I played back in 2001 😍 bring it back valve
I hate that valve caters to their E-sports crowd. There's so many of us who don't care about balanced and just want to have fun. Bring the maps back and let us just enjoy.
Balancing wasnt a concern back then, it was trying to make the map fun to play, and the focus wasnt 100% competitive gameplay. I wish Valve laid back a little on the eSports, hell they even didnt put arms race and damger zone on cs2. If only they tweaked dust 1 and aztec to casual gamemode
PENGY UPLOADDDDDD!!!
Rewatching this, I think I have a number of ideas for how Aztec could potentially be fixed.
1. Shrinking the entire mid section on a horizontal axis. The idea is to make the bridge shorter and apply the same change to the overpass section and the bombsite B. This reduces the combat range of the overpass to something more mid range, reduces the time span during which players are exposed on the bridge, and combined with other changes to bombsite B, makes bombsite B more compact.
2. Connecting the side hall from CT spawn to bombsite B with the sewer exit below bombsite B as opposed to the bombsite itself. This turns bombsite B's stretch towards CT spawn into a dead end and makes it slower for the CT side to gain sniper control of the center of the map, since they'll have to take one of the ramps first.
3. Establishing a faster terrorist route from T-spawn down to the water, to replace the version seen in Source (CS:GO's final version didn't even have that at all). This could be as simple as to turn the shallow ramp into a steeper staircase that directly connects not from the side of T-spawn but from the front of T-spawn right down to the water.
4. Removing the connector between south and middle that was added to side hall at some point during CS:GO. It was never a good idea to begin with.
5. Removing the double doors in the middle of the map when approaching bombsite B from T-spawn in favor of a different obstacle that can serve to block the view for the CTs while allowing the Terrorists to pass around it on both sides as opposed to funneling them through a single opening with doors that can even be shot through.
6. Slightly increasing the verticality of bombsite A and adding another approach to it from the back. Hard to describe what I mean here. You can see it in my mockup though.
7. Turning the room between the bridge and bombsite A into a T shape and moving the CT access from behind the boxes to a more northern position. The boxes now serve as cover that needs to be run behind from somewhere visible, as opposed to completely undetected.
8. Rotating the large stairs/ramp leading up to bombsite B by 45 degrees to allow CTs to use it as cover when emerging from the sewers if need be, and also allowing them to make it to the ramp quicker. Position may be overpowered for sniping though, so the corner created would probably need to be shrinked so the CTs even when taking cover there would always at least be a bit exposed.
I have created a mockup here on Imgur:
a/nGovIfG
i got this video in my recommended and i assumed it was by a massive content creator but you only have 1.3k subs? you'll go far with this sorta stuff, i dont even play cs very often and its still enjoyable. keep it up
Multiplied that by 20 in 12 days
You will never be a woman
Just found your channel today. As a fellow creator I wanted to say that your content is great, keep it up!
Wow. You did this high quality, highly detailed work and only now got 1K. Congratulations and respect, you're the most underrated youtuber I've ever seen it's almost criminal
Is it highly detailed though? Video didn't deep dive in to anything. If you rewatch it, it's just him saying, that the map is unfixable. Okay, how do you know that it is unfixable? Valve removed it? Is it really a valid point? Didn't try to say what changes he would try, what was the most hated part of those maps, etc.. I'm not hating to just hate, I'm trying to give critique, which in my point of view is normal.
@@FormaxLt It's way better than the videos of creators with a similar size, it's not just about this video but all the videos he made for 2 years
I'm glad Valve introduce new maps instead of always updating old ones to fit the modern playstyle. It's okay for things to go, and having entirely new maps grants new experiences, all-new ideas, and keeps the game feeling fresh.
lmao at your new maps, there's nothing new or unique about them, just painted different.
the new maps are worse than the old maps though, for e.g. ancient is bare to play compared to aztec. a lot of the new maps they add are bad to play because they try too hard to make it competitive rather than fun.
Why not just make a pool of maps for competitive nerds like you ( aka 3 lane maps that are boring af ) and a pool of casual maps where we have all the classics.
Aztec was fun because it was imbalanced. Ancient is just another 3 lane generic claustrophobic garbage map. Aztec was fun because it was one of the only maps with longer distances you could engage at.
this was the first video i've watched from you and i really liked, +1 sub
just discovered your channel, and I love the vids! I'll be a long time supporter surely
Brother, I saw a video of yours some hours ago and you had 14k subs, now 20k. WOW! Fully deserved!
Reminding my old days of playing condition zero I really enjoyed playing tides , estate , 747 , survivor , havana , assault , italy . God I miss those old days
I remember there being tweaked versions of both maps back in the 1.6 days. The maps share the same flaw, the T spawn is too far away and the T’s have way too limited options. The tweaked versions removed the T spawn and had them spawning in the back of the “hub” areas and added a 3rd wrap around lane, kinda like with long in overpass. I remember those versions being both fun and fair, but cant remember the names. Sad that those versions have been forgotten, because both maps are very fixable.
Man, I first got CSGO in Sept 2016 and vividly remember playing these maps so much on casual and comp, i almost thought i dreamt them up and was hallucinating. This video made me hella nostalgic for these maps, they should re utilize them and update them
It’s the map where all began for me I was playing on a cracked version of cs 1.5 and I was playing Aztec all the day with bots I loved the ambient and the space that the map provide
First video ive Seen of you
First video ive seen on this topic
Great Vid, great idea gotta like and sub
great freaking channel my friend
I miss the old Vertigo strat of CTs rushing the ladder with P90s, dropping down near Tspawn and blastibg everyone in the back 10sec into the round. Or those ballsy suicide plays where you jumped off CT spawn and try to land on Tspawn at start of the round
Ah yes, finally some good recommendations from youtube. Just started watching your channel, top quality stuff. No I mean it 😊
Fantastic vid dude. Cool insights and observations
Man your content has been top notch the last weeks.
You have some really interesting videos. I hope you keep uploading.
I cant describe how enjoyable your videos are❤️
Good to see this channel blowing up, deserved
you record high quality videos, keep up the grind man
your vids are amazing man. no way you have under 1k subs
Gratz on your first thousand subs, hope more people find this channel.
You deserve all the views brother. Amazing work, please please keep making great content man.
Aztec: Only 3 ways for terrorists to go, 2 of them broken. Outside is a shooting gallery for cts. Water is broken because cts can see legs of terrorists before terrorists can see them. I guess can improve outside, by adding more boxes and panels, thus dividing the outside push into angles to check one by one. Idk how to fix water though. Maybe add side passage to skip the dead zone, so that terrorist can peak out past that area. Also, bridge is fine, and the "fixes" in more recent versions that adds additional path from water to over bridge, - those are just extra paths and not fixes for the actual 2 problem areas in map.
Dust: Now this is more of a clusterfuck of a map. But it can be fun to play around the tunnel areas. I have no idea how to fix this map.
My friends and I only play vertigo, and that’s actually due to years ago, one of them loved the way the ct agent said “flashbang” and told us all “we’re learning vertigo no questions”
Keep posting bro
This is the come up
All these maps are but a fever dream to me nowadays; was nice to get more insight on it all.
happy i got this in my recommendeds. ur channel has a bright future and this comment boosts early engagements making it technically a self-fulfilling prophecy. been subbed for a couple now. good luck
3:03 you consider Overpass an experimental map, not a 3-lane map? That's odd, I consider it 3-lane.
I look at lower park/toilets as middle, Long as Long A, and the connector going to B leading into Short B, and Monster being Long B. It's pretty much 3-lane, and certainly more 3-lane than Train, Nuke and Vertigo are. The only weird thing is that middle and short A pretty much the same thing, but taking middle and taking short A are different challenges (taking toilets is basically taking short A, but taking fountain/party is taking middle)
I'm curious to know what you think about this
Exactly my thoughts!
i dont know where you came from but i thank you for the welcome addition of csgo content on yt.
see ya around
Penguin bro your content quality is A tier
good well written content. I'll follow your career with great interest
I think for nostalgia sake they should include all of the maps. Competitive esports doesnt need to use them if they dont want to, but i did like these maps
Most people don't play competitive anyway, the vast majority of the player base is on casual.
Those maps are pretty, nostalgic and fun to play in. They deserve to be appraised for what they are and be on the casual pool. Playing casual is not a shame, if you play casual is because you want to have not, not to ecounter some sweaty kids that don't study nor have a job.
Very informative video, great job!
Hi Penguin, is there any plan on a video about CS_assault since it was quite popular on CS 1.6?
Thank you for your hard work, love this channel.
I don't know why but he reminds me summoning salt don't know why. Great videos tho keep it up
Great work! Good job on getting 1k
the unothodox maps in cs are some of my favorites. nuke and train are genuinely joys to play for me.
mfw penguin uploads another high quality video
So much nostalgia! Loving the upload.
PS you say inherently Alot lol
Aztec has always been my favourite map from 1.6 and cz ,I also do miss dust alot.
In my experience the most fun maps are the ones where you can break through the other teams momentum consistently on either side (I've had countless inferno games where the CTS started off great in the pistol and early rounds but then the terrorists pulled back to make the half fairly equal.) Rince and repeat for opposite teams and I regularly get scores like 16-14.
Aztec was my favourite map back in the day , i hope they remake it and add it back in to the game one day , also it would be nice to see cobblestone again
They literally tried and gave up. It's over, Aztec is dead forever.
You should mention cs_mansion as well. I think VALVE should have kept aztec in the map pool at least for other game modes such as casual or deathmatch.
future! Great tutorial and wholeso community! Stay safe in these tis and keep your heads up! Do what you want that inspires you,
Aztec is such a beautiful map
Love this video, good stuff!
The algorithm has blessed this channel
My top 5 maps in CSS were
- Aztec
- Dust 1
- Assault
- Office
- Italy
so…me sad
ur content is really cool bro keep it up
Man dust and aztec drive me nuts now I was wondering what it is about them... Thanks for the video explanation 😂
One common aspect of the "experimental" maps (Overpass, Nuke, Vertigo) is verticality, where one bomb site is situated higher than the other, or the T spawn is on a lower level from CT spawn.
That being said, Aztec and Dust 1 fall neither into the 2 map categories, and so any map changes that would render them playable (by today's competitive standards) require their overall layout to be changed.
For Dust 1, trying to "fix it" inevitably leads into reinventing the wheel that is Dust 2 with its 3-lane layout. Unless if, say, the Dust 1 tunnels serve as mid and B site is moved nearer to the T underpass
Also, we DO have modern iterations of Aztec and Dust - Ancient and Dust2. At least aesthetically. If they had changed Aztec and Dust to be competitive, they might have not resembled the old maps at all anymore, so this feels kind of ... the same to me. Vertigo on the other hand has a vastly different look and was worth changing in order to diversify the pool
If they just moved the B site further towards bridge and it would extend the time it takes to rotate from A to B, also they could make a connector from A, to the original B while moving the A site to the previously mentioned location.
We need to bring back casual gameplay with more maps.
With CS2 coming out and Source 2 Hammer, map makers can use tools to create crazy fun maps with casual in mind. Sure, valve doesn't need to put them in competitive mode but what's the loss in putting all accepted maps in casual mode.
dust, prodigy, cbble and italy ffa w 15 players would be so awesome to have back. with lower levels and casual play, those were a lot of fun back in the day
Aztec and dust still play just fine in pubs that dont exist anymore but back then, I loved playing on 16vs16 servees
Dust might be a little too difficult to fix, but I think Aztec could make a fun Vertigo-like map if someone gives enough thought. I saw the BIG vs NIP match, and the way they played it made me think it just needs some (solid) changes. It's very unique, and the verticality is insane with different paths to be utilised. I'm not very good at map design, but to me the core issues in the map are:
- The Double Doors-B path and Totems/Middle is too exposed. You can be shot from halfway across the map.
- The lower area is suicide, and gives very little advantage to hold for the Ts, but giving it up to the CTs just leaves the Ts exposed completely. It could be made more viable if the routes offered something more meaningful and if there were easier rotations between the lower and upper sections for the Ts.
- Overall, the map is too big. Either it should be refined like Overpass to make more intricate chokepoints, or reduced proportionally so the Ts have it fairer.
- Retaking seems to be easy because of a lack of cover in the sites. Lack of cover is a general issue though.
If all these issues are fixed, we might have a map that is at least playable, I believe.