Best Joint Shootout, The answer will surprise you! | Hand Tool Shootout
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- Опубліковано 18 жов 2024
- Time for another Hand Tool Shootout, this time looking at butt joints, comparing the #Kreg Jig, #Festool Domino, Biscuits, Hand-Cut and Machine Cut Mortise and Tenon joints. I will be looking at the time it takes to cut these joints, the fit finish and repeatability, and the strength.
At the end, we will look at a breakdown of the value of all of these tools for a home gamer hobbyist vs a professional in a shop.
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Affiliate Links for Tools Referenced
Floating Tenons (Domino Joinery)
Domino System
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Festool All the Tenons all the bits
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Fancy festool Dust Extractor(it is a beast)
www.festoolusa...
Cheapy Shop Vac
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Hand Cut Mortise & Tenon
Dozuki Z Saw
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Chisels
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Square
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Machine Cut Mortise & Tenon
Bosch Jobsite Saw (Takes a 15/16" Dado stack)
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Bosch Colt Router Palm Router
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Dado Stack
Freud 8' Dado Stack
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Biscuit Joint
Biscuit Joiner VonHaus (Brand Doesn't matter)
amzn.to/2DutTVV
Biscuits Porter Cable
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Pocket Holes
Kreg K5 and everything you'll need
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Floating Tenons (Domino Joinery)
Domino 500
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Festool All the Tenons all the bits
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Fancy festool Dust Extractor
amzn.to/2FWH3Zn
Cheapy Shop Vac
amzn.to/2DtS4Ua
#handtoolshootout #joinery #kregjig #festooldomino #dominos #biscuits #MortiseandTenon #woodworking #joints #woodjoints #woodjoinery #pockethole #buttjoint #kregjig #woodenbox #diydrawer #cabinetry
Great to see the comparison :) Loved to have seen Dowels in this test also :) ॐ
Follow up shootout will be neccesary, so many people talking about dowels and bead lock.
That will be great :) ॐ
Would love to see follow up with
Great review and analysis. . Would like to see follow up with dowel. Also there are several efficient methods to cut tenon with router, lookup Jeremy Broun
That might be another good shootout...what is the fastest way to cut a mortise and tenon?
I am a custom fine furniture maker of 45 years. I use machine cut mortise and tenons with a mortising machine - perfectly cut. My butt joints are rock solid. We tested a Festool Domino and were not impressed. The costs were enormous and we did not see any improvement in quality over the m&t for the money spent. Where they make up for the money is time. That said we all preferred the more traditional mortise and tenon for its mechanical advantage and strength. The difference for us is planning, which we do. We cut all the pieces at the same time. We also do the mortises and tenons then as well. We can cut mortises in about 1 minute 30 on the machine. Tenons about the same. They are tight, strong, and will last generations of rough use. When the glue is dry, the Festool Domino joint failed in 10 out of 10 tests we did on ash at about ~1250psi. The m&t lasted to ~4400 psi. Was your glue dry? It did not appear so. I don’t believe new technology is necessarily superior to age-old techniques but may indeed be faster. That said, new technology may be good enough for some applications and whatever works and is comfortable for anyone is the method they should use. FWIW.
Agreed. But given the potential glue joint and mechanical fastener. . The biggest issue is cosmetics in the end. Cost... is about the same. IF you have all the fanty pant clamps. Albeit ply, imho if doing all REAL wood. Nothing is better than traditional.
Ya, good mortising machines with practiced individuals are pretty hard to beat. I think where the domino really shines is in Plywood assemblies and assembling softer woods where M&T won't be quite as strong as a hardwood floating tenon. Another place where the domino shines is in modeling and batching. With dominos there is no need to model the joinery or account for extra length in the components for joinery. One more thing with the domino, you can bring the tool to the piece rather than the piece to the tool, which is great for large assemblies. Horses for courses and whatnot.
You can cut the m&t in 3 minutes. That’s pretty impressive I might reach for my Mortiser more if I could get it done that fast . The domino is plenty strong (with glue) for most applications so I don’t think i will be switching over any time soon as it probably takes me 20x longer than the domino 😂
This is a great effort. Like professional woodworkers vs semi-pros, one can always find small things to argue about in your method. Overall, you provide the right information and you discuss the important details. Your tests are fair. I was a bit surprised to see the old handcrafted mortise and tenon not win - some of these joints have been in existence for a thousand years - literally. Your testing highlights the best of what humans can do - build machines to mimic great craftsmanship. The tradeoffs are what they are but you show what matters - what level is the joint ready to withstand. All other decisions are economic and aesthetic, as you fully discuss. Thanks again.
Thanks! I love doing these. They are easy to shoot but tough to research and prepare for. Trying to do more this year.
Lap joint is the strongest and easier to make.
Domino every time. I have the Domozilla 700xl. I am now 70 years old and time is my most precious resource.
And is the same reason I purchase the Festool DF500 (time the most valuable commodity)
I use the biscuit joiner all the time. I feel like it gets a bad rap from misuse. If you apply glue within the biscuit slots and onto the biscuits you get a pretty strong joint. The biscuit will absorb the glue and swell inside the joint making a tight and strong joint. I use it on cabinet structures and face frames all the time.
It certainly has its purpose but butt joints are certainly not one of them. Good enough for face frames and case work.
@@WoodWorkLIFE mmm, surely the biscuit is just to align the 2 pieces and the strengh is just the glue so for a butt joint it still should be ok? I am talking about sideboard cupboards and bedside cupboards??
It cost a lot cheaper for the average woodworker....
Biscuits are just a smaller version of the domino. A properly fitted biscuit still work great. To strengthen your butt joints, wipe glue on the end grain and let dry. This fills in the poors. Then glue the joint.
@@brucemiller1696 yah I think biscuits are great. I don't understand why his biscuit joint broke so easily?
Good old fashioned doweling jig will work fine as well. Affordable and joints are strong and easy to repeat.
Ya I have a follow up video I'm working on looking at more joinery
On lockdown here in California. Really good demo. I use a hand made doweling jig for these types of joints, and the Kreg system, and they both work fine for me for what I do in my garage shop. They are nice strong joints, and since I am a bit of a perfectionist, I take oversized dowels, glue them into to the pocketholes and then cut them down with a Japanese pull saw. Once sanded, you can barely see them, unless you are looking for them, and they are usually on the inside or the back of a project. The reason I mentioned the lockdown, is that it is that I haven't eaten yet, and I really wish you hadn't shown those BISCUITS! Great video, thanks!
Gregg Hernandez I’m a bit concerned about screws loosening, so I haven’t plugged any Kreg holes yet - just capped them. Do you figure the plugs are up against the screw head, making it impossible for them to back out?
@@zxzs328 As far as I can tell none have ever backed out. I never really thought about it, but I guess because the dowels are pounded in, with Titebond II or III glue securing them, there is little chance of them moving at all.
The pocket holes are the only nondestructive for disassembly purposes. Great comparison. Very similar to what I would expect from Project Farm.
One major issue I see with this testing method is that it is compromised by the supporting wood beam placed underneath the joint (7:45). In essence, this vertical beam forms part of the joint and functions as a fulcrum by which the joint member under load rotates, exerting a magnified torque at the joint.
Other than that, it is a useful demonstration of what can be expected by a diyer or hobbyist.
I was given a Ryobi biscuit joiner about two years ago, and used it to build a fir garden chair and garden bench (which both sit outside year round). These items are still as solid as the day they were made, with no sign of cracking at the joints at all. I think if you use a good quality outdoor glue and take care to mate the pieces accurately, the biscuit joint will be plenty strong for most applications.
You can also combine it with screws.
bighand69 and dowels.tim
Really liking how thorough you are with these tests and data. Much more enjoyable than a bunch of people arguing with little real evidence. Looking forward to watching your other shootouts. Thanks.
Thanks dude, I can't wait to add to the data sheet with the next shootout.
Nice video - a couple of minor details/corrections:
One of the problems I’ve had with the kreg jig is keeping the pieces alligned. Even with clamping, the angle of the screw will tend to pull the perpendicular piece forward, off the base piece as you screw it in. I’ve also had issues with the screws splitting harder woods, despite using fine-threaded screws, waxing them and going very slow with an impact driver.
The pocket hole jigs used by a production shop are different and significantly more expensive. These machines usually make the hole at a shallower angle, reducing the alignment issues. They’re also actually faster, too.
Finally, the strength of the Domino (or any tenon system) is determined by the size of the tenon. Using the wrong size can make a big impact on joint strength.
Thanks for including the time. Most DIY videos neglect this key factor when deciding on a method or project.
Your welcome, thanks for watching. Just experimenting here, thought I would share.
I watch some videos to improve my craftsmanship and I been thinking of these same questions all of this video was great and improved my craftsmanship. Thank you!
Glad it was helpful!
Thanks for the data table. Best part about this
I don't know if anyone else has commented on this but the time comparison between Domino and Kreg doesn't include glue up and clamping time for the Domino. The Kreg is completed in the time shown but no mention of glue up time and cleanup time.
Just the time comparison is fantastic information to know. I don't think I've seen anyone else do that, thank you so much!
You’re welcome, glad you liked it!
Good research, any of these will make furniture that will last for generations. I use a Domino and pocket joints now but I have items with biscuit joints that are 30 years old. Your tests are good, they just aren’t relevant to how most of us work. The only joints I have seen fail are in commercial with dowel joints.
There is a joint for every type of application. Herloom furniture....domino or through tenons. Kitchen cabinets....dados. Deck.....screws. Etc.......
Dowels should have been included
Thomas Schley, xsq,, L. V l k
I thought the same, too.
Dowels would have been the strongest and by far the cheapest.
Thomas Schley Absolutely, they are pretty much a standard, in traditional furniture.
Dowels are made of soft pine wood , he didn’t use the XL 700 Domino thicker tenons and is made of a Hard wood OAK that Isis perfect to make solid heavy door 🚪
I've been using dowels for 45 years never had any problems with anything falling apart, wooden dowels, a drill bit, and a dowling jig under $45.00 works for me
Both the Dowel Max and the Jessem dowel jig are viable alternatives that could have been included in this test. I'm sure the Domino is great but it's seriously overpriced for most that do woodworking as a hobby. I sold my hollow chisel mortiser and should sell my Porter Cable Biscuit Cutter as I haven't used it a time since getting the Jessem dowel jig.
I love your Dowel Videos :)
I've been a average woodworker. I recently decided to get my shit together and do what I feel is my passion and take wood working seriously. I greatly appreciate this information (helps my K5 buyers remorse). I know it's not "scientifically" correct with only single tests but realistically the butt joints either have "it", or they don't. Thank you again
Biscuits are a structural joint in most meaningful applications, in frame making.
indeed they are. They aren't on there own that strong, but a box with them on all sides is strong AF.
To get best results on the kreg jig your suppose to clamp the joint flat while you drive the screws , otherwise you get slippage which will require more sanding. And it didn't appear that you clamped your biscuit joint, or any of the joints for that matter, as there was a bit of a gap before you even started the test. And yes dowels would have been appropriate to test along with these other methods. I actually have the Dowel Max jig and it works very well ! Thanks for sharing !
I did clamp all of the joints off camera, and there were very little gaps. There was very little slippage with the Kreg joint, just cleaned it up a little with sand paper. The biscuit joint looked fine, great even, no gaps but failed immediately with any load. It had a gap when the test started because it had already failed when I delicately tapped the nail in. The biscuits just aren't tight fitting enough so the joint is cosmetic but not structural. I have a doweling jig I got, and the Rockler beadlock, also testing half lap, nails, and screws...I am interested in the results.
I think for a hobbyist you really need to question how versatile a tool is before you buy it. What other things can you do with it? A table saw (or a router), for instance, is really very versatile and most hobbyists are probably going to have one on their wish list already. But a Festool domino slot cutter is a very specific tool that most of the time is just going to be sitting on a shelf in your shop collecting dust and adding clutter.
If you really don't want a joint to come apart, use a half-lap joint, a dovetail joint or a mortise and tenon joint and then peg it. Another option is a wedged through tenon joint such as you would see connecting a hammer head to a handle. Usually though, on furniture, your joints are not going to have to withstand large torquing forces such as in your test. Horizontal members are usually supported on both ends by a pair of joints, so weight applied to the horizontal member gets transferred straight down into each joint of the pair. The horizontal member may bend a little under the load, but not enough to tear apart the joints, unless it's undersized for the weight and catastrophic failure occurs to the member itself. At that point whatever happens to the joints is moot.
@dlwatib. Finally someone else gets it. We are talking about cabinetry for God's sake, not load bearing structural members. Smdh. Also, your point about price vs versatility is truly accurate and important.
+dlwatib
If you buy a domino you could use it on every joint you do. If you are not using that often it probably means you are not that seriously into wood work.
In terms of the biscuit joint you could combine it with through dowels or screws as well.
That was a really good breakdown of the costs of each joint. I used to sell a type of welding equipment that replaced an actual 3-4 min welding process. You break the numbers down like that and it was an easy sell. See you at WBC.
Catch me if you see me, I'll have a shirt for you. Just give me that catch phrase.
Kreg joints can shift which in hardwood frames can lead to undesired extra time required for joint leveling. The Castle pocket hole joints don't have this issue as much and of course Kreg sells pricey pneumatic clamping tables to overcome this weakness in the system. In softer woods leveling flush joints with a sander may not be a big deal but in harder woods it can be a real chore. Dowels have been mentioned in some of the comments and they offer very positive alignment in both axis of a joint. Sometimes one may want the lateral shiftability of a mortise joint though and as long as the side tolerances are close enough the joints should go together close enough to flush to require minimal sanding time.
Hi, I don't use butt joints much but for a wooden bench from pallet wood I used through screws and wood plugs. My bench has stood outside for three years and suffered more damage from wind blowing the light structure over. One joint came apart and I used the next size up screw ( from 4mm to 5mm) and new wooden plug.
It is not always about using the absolute best joint, engineering is about good enough not as good as possible.
The production comparisons at the end are a great metric. Thanks for putting this together.
Before you even start I expect Festool to win (effectiveness + efficiency), but as a hobbyist cannot justify its price.
Looking forward to the results.
For my coffee table I used dowels and thick legs. Solid as a rock.
Your voice over is perfect, btw - no echo, nice and flat, very easy to listen to.
Thanks for the comment, I think I need to do a follow up looking at dowels, and a few other techniques vs domino and others. There are so many techniques.
Thanks for the Kudos on the VO, I have been working on that for a while. Way harder than it seems.
Are there no cheaper machines then a Festool that do the same?. Because a hobbyist likes fast and easy ways and a Festool way is just that. I agree on the price as a hobbyist pffff even a pro would have to think about that machine i think.
xander witt
I have not seen a machine as good as the Festool. There are Jigs and machines that you can make out of wood such as the pantorouter that are a close proximity but it would take the time and effort to build them which as a professional I did not have. So the easy solution for me was put it in my shopping cart and place the order in two days later I had it. I have never regretted that decision.
When the domino patent expires in 2024, I’ll buy a Dewalt, happily. I love my Dewalt track saw.
Domino and Kreg always beat any joint these days for usage, speed and strength.
If you are making massive oak beams etc, hand cut is the only way.
But this guy should be promoting the kreg for sheer ease of use, absolutely brilliant strength and price.
If you can afford a domino, get one.
Beach tenons are stronger than pine dowels.
I would recommend Kreg for near all home projects.
Biscuits are perfect for table tops, alignment, they have little compression value.
Dowels do, but they can be fiddly...depends on what you are doing, but are pretty strong.
I personally would rec kreg and domino to maximise your output and quality, but deff use biscuits for flat panel alignment.
Strength in the right places people
Why no dowels? I've used all but the Domino. For dowels I use the Dowelmax tool. It's slower than the Domino, yet faster than mortise and tenon. Dowels as strong as tenons and look nicer than pocket screws (plugged).
Great shoot out! Only complaint is not enough butt jokes.
Fascinating! Interesting to see dollars to pound strength
I have had the Domino 500 for over 10 years. I'm on my third box of 1800, 5 mm tenons. Given that I paid around $700 for the Domino and approximately $75 per box of 1800 5 mm tenons I have an investment of approximately $925. That divided by say 5,000 tenons, 10,000 plunge cut mortises my production cost of each joint, not counting labor is approximately 18.5 cents per tenon. Approximate tenon cost just under 5 cents each is included in the 18.5 cents per joint. A no brainer in time savings and strength of production mode. FWIW I have not replaced or resharpened any of the Domino bits yet.
The domino requires dust collection to be operate so I included the cost of an extraction system.
But ya, for production tasks, hard to beat the domino.
@@WoodWorkLIFE Dust extraction is preferred but you can blow out each joint with an air hose and nozzle. I had the Festool CT22 for my sanders and track saw. S no extra purchase was required.
The instructions for the domino say MUST USE dust extraction. I just went with that.
The flaw to the test is due to the lateral movement of the perpendicular. I can't recall any piece of cabinetry or furniture that uses butt joints where the perpendicular piece isn't supported laterally from an opposite and equal butt joint.
I would take 5 pieces of wood and build a base cabinet type frame and test the joints lateral movements by squeezing the square frame diagonally.
The reason being is that a completed cabinet isn't necessarily subject to the lateral forces you are subjecting to these test pieces. Biscuits or kreg joints or even metal connectors would work just fine - unless you are building a ladder.
Or simpler, build an H-frame and pull straight down while measuring how far the styles spread out.
I was trying to do the simplest testing methodology to minimize and isolate variables, but yes it might oversimplify a bit. The failures are still implicit of the behavior with a completed piece. Besides the point though, as stated in the video, engineering is about making something strong enough not the most possible strong. Most of these joints are "strong enough" in most scenarios. If you are making a chair to park a car on though YMMV.
I like machine-cut as you can control the thickness of tenon for bigger pieces. Festool has its limits.
Thank you for this honest comparison, most interesting that I’ve seen 👍👍👍🔨
What the best joinery for making boxes with a 6 mm birch plywood . The box sizes are typically 12 inch cubes with one face left open . I am a beginner and launching myself into wood working . Thanks and Regds
If you can cut really flat square edges glue and clamps will be great. If you want to go fast, glue and pin nails. If you don't want any pin heads showing, biscuits would be great for alignment.
I really appreciated the strength comparison. Thank you
What about using a router and creating a simple jig to make your own floating tenons? This seems like the best hobbyist option. You can even take pieces of hardwood and make your own dominos.
For sure. There are infinite solutions like that. I am trying to cover commonly used approaches.
Biscuit joints are really great for face frames and provide more than enough strength for that use.
for sure, just did all the joinery methods I had in my shop
That tool cost breakdown at the end...you're a legend for that. Production vs hobbyist cost is absolutely amazing. Thanks for your attention to detail. I don't even really relate to most of your videos but I've subscribed mostly because I appreciate this attention to detail and will enjoy your videos regardless if that is regular here.
Thanks so much. I won't forget about that.
It's all shits and giggles until someone giggles and shits. Great vid mate, I still had to write that though.
Thanks so much man. Glad you liked it.
I like dowel pins. Live in an an apartment, and I feel hammering out a mortise produces too much noise. Dowel pins are available at big box stores at OK, prices. I don't like the look of screws, and every piece of older furniture I've seen that depended on screws has become loose. Screws don't expand, contract, or bend the way wood does, causing them to loosen up over time.
I am covering dowels in round 2
Good comparison. Like everything, it depends on use. For cabinet face frames, I find either pocket screws or simple biscuits (both with glue) to be great options for quick assembly. Pocket screws with no glue are good if you do need to disassemble/re-assemble it. If the joints are to be structural in any way, then some type of mortise & tenon or half-lap, or even dowel system is best for me. The Domino system is just too expensive unless you use it all the time.
Nice job! Not only is this a great subject, but you present it very professionally. You explain exactly what you are going to present, get straight to the point, do a thorough job and don't waste any time (discounting for the T-shirt promo of course). Keep it up.
This was super informative - awesome video!
Thanks dude! I plan on doing a follow up with some other popular joinery like dowels, half laps, glues and screws, any other joinery techniques you might like to see?
I appreciate the effort, hence the thumbs up but not seeing dowels in the shootout is a bummer especially that if given equal length they are probably the strongest :)
Subscribed! I enjoyed that. I've always hated the unclean look of pocket screws, but will use them if time is a factor. I've been trying to justify the purchase of a Domino. Not that I can't afford it, but I tend to avoid anything "Festool" because I've got too much of my dad in me...why spend top dollar when something else will work? Your discussion about the production value of the tools is helpful and it solidifies the notion in my mind that I probably wouldn't use the Domino enough to justify its purchase, even if it would be awesome to have. I can keep using biscuits for face-frames and hand-cut joints for nicer projects. There is a certain amount of satisfaction in doing a nice handcut M&T.
Welcome to the WWL family. That was really what I was going for, sometimes the time savings is worth the money sometimes it's not. This is the most applicable place to look at the time:money ratio. This is where you have to consider ROI. Handcut joinery is my favorite to do, to watch, and to admire on finished pieces.
If you do another test add dowels specifically with the dowelmax system.
It is in the plans, I will get at it!
Great job and overview. Your Ryobi biscuit joiner is about the worst one made. Lots of slop in the kerf which was noticeable when you joined the two pieces. I think the biscuit joiner excels in making pieces of wood to make a surface (plate joiner). I’m happy with my Dewalt plate joiner. The Festtool I think is ridiculously overpriced. I personally don’t like them. Thanks for sharing
Yes...it is, I wanted to put it in there since I still had it...it's now in the bin.
Shits and giggles this is a man i want to follow. You have earned my sub sir
Thanks man! Welcome to the WoodWorkLIFE family. I hope to see you around in the comments. The viewers choice follow up video to this should be out in the next couple of weeks.
Interesting vid. I started using dowels to do certain joinery with great success. It worked really well for my computer desk base. The top is 1'' 1/2 thick and 5ft by 3ft butcher block 115 lbs. The table base uses 4''by 4''s legs with a 2" by 5" apron. It's a beast but the 1'' dowels have held up without any issues for over a year now. Would be interesting how dowel joints would hold up in a shoot out.
Clamping a joint during glue setting is much more important than you might think. Glue choice is crucial. Also, the failure mode you were testing is not a common one- the support under the loaded component is unlikely in practice. See 'gosforth handyman' for more practical tests.
indeed it does
I'm a traditional bench joiner and wood machinest in the UK who makes every kind of window including sashes, box frames, casements, doors and all kinds of door frames! Why does no one do a mortise and tenon joint properly with wedges and a hornch? It is be far the best and strongest way to do real joinery 😅 every demonstration I've come across on UA-cam they've all been done incorrectly 🤷🏻♂️
If you do not care about aesthetics then use two 8 inch long screws. Takes a sledge hammer to break it apart. Mostly what you see in real life is where glue joints have gotten flexed to death. Once a single joint fails the rest of the structure gets uneven loading and then you get a cascading failure. The moral of the story is that as soon as your chair gets loose fix it. A stitch in time saves nine.
Great advice on the stitch in time. I’ll have to put long screws into the follow up. I would think the screw compromises the grain of the wood.
Ive only used dowels and biscuits, i really like the dowels the best
Dowels are fantastic, the glue area is not nearly as good as a traditional M&T or a floating tenon joint though.
I feel long T20 deck screws are so underrated. I’ve experimented with many types of joinery. For many years and I keep coming back to 3.5” T20 star deck screws ...the self tapping ones with the small heads that don’t split wood and can seat themselves deep in the wood. Also known as camo screw or trim screws. Brands like GRK sell them. It’s fast. It’s cheap, and I always get nervous when I’m running low on them... I always try to keep a bunch of different sizes in stock since I use them for everything because they can hide themselves in the wood..and with wood glue and plastic wood filler it’s invisible.
You can also strengthen different joinery in your project without having to take everything apart to just throw in a joinery. Just throw in another screw..If it’s painted over you’ll never see it after filling/sanding with wood filler.
Most people never look at the joinery so they won’t see it either. Think about it- most stick built homes that bear large loads use long screw joinery. Straight up SCREWS and wood are holding up structures. The screws are even stronger than the wood itself so your screw will never snap- and aactualy strengthening your structure with stronger materials. I’ve always wanted to use hidden joinery but when you’re trying to fix something on the fly this works. Only downside I can see is the possibility of splitting wood (so Pre drill) or if the wood filler somehow ruins the cosmetics of the piece. Other than that, most joinery is hidden/behind something/ under the table and it goes unnoticed. Also the best part? You can dissasemble your project and put it back together.
Your friend has shared a link to a Home Depot product they think you would be interested in seeing.
#8 x 2 in. Star Drive Trim-Head Finish/Trim Screw (100 per Pack)
www.homedepot.com/p/203525324
I've got some, I'll give them a shot
If i remember right, Matthias Wandel did such a test a longer time ago.
He tested a couple of things but not as thoroughly as this. No time, cost comparisons, etc. Win goes to Wood Work Life. I think Matthias just likes to build weird little jigs for things.
the domino is the best in my opinion ...its fast its accurate and super strong, the hand made mortis is really good also and if you go that route you can factor in your time an labor into the price of the things you will sell and describe your work how its made so it gets a better appreciation to the item sold and could be sold for a higher rate knowing its hand made olds school mortis items so that your time gets paid even if it takes longer to make them.
Domino is best, I think pocket holes are underrated but don't really have a place in modern "fine" furniture (purely for cosmetic reasons.) If you can find a customer that appreciates hand craftsmanship you should absolutely be valuing your time.
Good, extensive comparison!
Thanks for taking the time to properly test the different joint techniques.
No problem, I was as curious as I am sure any of you are. Makes a lot more sense now.
Kreg is great with the right screws! Counter sunk split the wood.
Wrong question. Which joining method is suitable and acceptable for which type of application
Sounds like there's an engineer in the house...
At the beginning of this video i thought i would have many objections. I was gladly wrong. Great video!
Thanks, you will probably like the follow up I am working on now then with even more joinery options as suggested from the comments.
FYI, that end grain glue up myth has recently been busted. But to but is a bit stronger than side to side.
yes, but leverage. a side to side joint may see a foot of leverage in a HUGE joint, but an end to side or end to end will see unholy amounts of leverage
@@jmac2o229 that's ture. But the statement 'end to end is weaker' is still factually incorrect.
Thank you for the video. Two things.
First, I would like to see someone compare a single Domino strength to simply using two 5 cent Lamello Biscuits on top of one another. No one has done that. Even a clone Domino is 17 cents.
Second, I used calipers and measured the thickness of 30 each of DeWalt and Swiss-made Lamello plate joiner Biscuits. Lamello was 1000 for $46.37 from Amazon, which is 4.6 cents each. DeWalt was $7.98 for 100 from Lowes, which is 8 cents each. I calculated the mean and standard deviation of the thicknesses and the Lamello were more than 3x as uniform. 97.7% of Lamello are predicted to be between 3.69 and 4.00mm. DeWalt are 3.34 to 4.31mm. The goal is to be as close to 4mm without going over. Visually, the Lamello have a glue-gripping pattern on each side. The DeWalt had a more shallow grid on one side.
No sense in judging biscuits without using Lamello brand.
Tough to beat those pocket holes for the price. Even tougher when you use hardwoods.
yup, they do fail less than gracefully when they fail, but in hardwood they are more than adequate.
Should have also glued all joints. I put glue on all of my Kreg pocket joints and they are ridiculously strong.
Yes Pocket screw Plus glue is extremly strong
they are all glued
Depends on the wood, the material thickness, etc.
A lot of the tests by similar channels have had similar or worse results on pocket holes, but like he said, if you are using 4 on something like a chair, it would be plenty strong.
A problem I see with the test
In your testing, you have placed a 1-1/2 inch piece of square stock under the joint as you apply a downward weight. Your load-point actually moves away from the joint by ab 1-1/2" to the outer edge of the square stock. When the test joints break you're seeing the effect that this leverage point had on the break.
In practice, when building using butt joints your not likely to encounter stresses on the joint where they are levered over another piece of wood as in your test.
I think you would find different results if you removed the square stock and allow the load to act on only the joint itself.
I appreciate your efforts, thank you for your good work.
You are probably right, I am planning a full set of tests that are going to be more controlled but I am not rushing it out.
Excellent demo...! But What about dowels? Cheap and cheery, and reasonably fast.
Dowels! Cheap, strong, good for non production use.
I think I am about ready for the follow up video to this one with all of the suggested joinery methods. Probably in January. Sorry...I am slow.
Domino is calling my name.......New budget section. Much love rick!!
Good job; thank you
Thank you too!
Good stuff man. Wondering how I hadn't stumbled across your channel before. Subscribed!
One more thing. Which method is use less clamp vs strength? Now, I might get broke from buying a varity of clamps. I aim the hand tools might be the least budget but the worse effort.
Pocket holes use the least clamps. That is a good point.
Thanks 1000 Time Good Job
👍
you're welcome
Good work! Thank you for that. Agree that biscuits have their place, but not in a mortice & tenon arrangement, especially one that will be subject to loads. Looking forward to the dowel comparison, hope you run the Domino against the dowel too. Thanks again.
There are different types of biscuit joints out there as well. Including self clamping, metal, plastic. Then there is the option of using screws with biscuits as well. You would line up the joint with the biscuit and then screw in after the alignment has been achieved.
The problem with pocket holes is that they are very hard to align and require some complex jigs to enable that. Pocket holes and biscuits are a great complementing jointing method. You can also use dowels with them as well.
You should test Maffel doweller 40 vs Domino 500
sir please tell about the joint which is in my very old cabinet
which is like having u shaped cut on one side and t shaped cut on other and they just slide in one another?
This sounds like a sliding dovetail joint.
making acoustic panels for a recording studio i learnt a new butt joint, basically as many pneumatic staples you can fit on both sides of the joint. super quick, super strong, with or without glue it should beat your joints. cheers for the upload. (joints were covered by fabric, not suitable for varnish)
Thanks arty...how many pneumatic staples we talking about :) Are you saying the fabric is structural to the joint? There are so many ways to join two boards. I haven't even started talking about Japanese joinery yet.
hey WWL, acoustic panels were covered in fabric as the finish (non structural), stacked around the 2 rooms floor to ceiling, all recording studios are similar to reference this. staples are approx 1-3mm spaces on both faces of the 3"x1" pine and pva. i would guess 20-30 per face. also softwood allows staple to countersink. look forward to the next 1. cheers mate.
80series staple x 6mm. it acts like a gangnail...(the engineers butt joint)
Lots of comments day dowels, but I am wondering about the half lap joint.
Good call, I will have to incorporate them as well.
Thanks I’ll be putting one on order as soon
Thankyou!! This is great for a beginner like me. More of these learning materials please!
SUBSCRIBED!
Awesome! Welcome to the WoodWorkLIFE family! I look forward to seeing you in the comments!
Your machine cut mortises are rounded at the ends allowing the adjacent piece rock side to side.
Yours truly,
WoodWizard
I rounded the edges of the tenon, they fit perfectly.
I'm glad you didn't include dowels they are for unskilled hobbyist. I use festool and Craig jig. Biscuit joiners are for window and door trim! Your welcome...
lol @ "Dowels are for the unskilled" "I use pocket screws"
@@FuzzyScaredyCat Ha... So your the one. Do you keep them in the pocket of your members only jacket?
What do you recommend when joining to sheets of plywood together one the short end
The buscuits pic cracked me up for some reason lol
Bridle joints and half laps are going to be good ones to test. Problem is doing this in soft wood is going to allow the metal fasteners to have an unfair advantage over the traditional joinery. With metal fasteners there is a difference between ultimate failure and joint separation. For stuff in my house if a joint separates it's failed imo.
mortise and tenon is best strenth,especially if you use a dry tenon drove into a green or not fully dried mortise of less than equal size.then as the mortise naturally shrinks you will have a stronger joint than any expensive tool can make.
that is certainly the tightest, but as far as strength it depends on the wood species, with floating tenon in narrow stock you can put a thin floating tenon into any species of wood, and have the mortise as the weak point of the joint. With M&T you have to use a hardwood that is strong enough even in thin proportions.
It was most obvious for the pocket hole, but is leveraging a rail over a 1" square bar really a good joint test? You're basically shearing the joint almost straight up, and with several times more force than the scale indicates. I'm thinking a bending test without the blocking bar would be more like the forces most wood joints have to resist.
the bar was placed to get a consistent axel to apply the force. The leverage applied will obviously add some mechanical advantage, but it doesn't change the accuracy of the figures. Testing two wood joints with a span between them like one side of a chair or table would be another interesting test. I thought it was interesting how the pocket hole joint failed too. I think that had more to do with the way the screws and the holes themselves compromise the timber in a manner. Screws are never going to be stronger than a mechanical joint, but in this case the joint probably would've been stronger with a smaller screw and less gauge hole to compromise the end grain less...would be an interesting experiment.
Mmmmm biscuits. My take away: never work hungry. :)
Yes...yes...1000 times yes
I could swear that I heard you say that a tenon would provide more leverage and this be easier to break. Please tell me I misheard that. I may have missed it, but was that glue fully cured? I feel like you should not get the tenon to pull out like that if the glue is cured. I’d expect more shearing/cracking as opposed to smooth extraction like that. Dominos are typically used only for alignment. Finally, an injury that always comes to mind when I pick up a biscuit joiner is my very first time. Holding the piece as you did, the piece slipped and I routed my thumb. Please be careful when pushing that machine into the piece.
I don't think I said that...hrm. I don't know what I would've meant if I said that. The glue was fully cured, the wood is fairly soft and straight grained though. I think it just peeled off a layer of wood cleanly.
That was really interesting. I've got the Domino and i have to say it's the dog's bollocks, very happy.
Ya, it feels like cheating.
Neat to see strength of hand cut. Cool video!
You said that the biscuit joint relies on glue to end grain strength. I wonder if you bothered to bath the biscuit in glue or not. Since they need to expand.
I did, it still failed
i wish that doweled joints were included
Would have been telling to have included a hollow chisel mortiser in the test. Lot cheaper than a Festool Domino setup, and no issues of matching rounded shoulder mortises (router cut) and square shoulder tenons (table saw cut).