Festool Domino vs Mortise and Tenon Strength Test
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- Опубліковано 28 вер 2024
- Get the Katz-Moses Magnetic Dovetail Jig here: lddy.no/stiz
Today I’m testing the strength of the Festool Domino VS traditional mortise and tenon. I was really surprised by the results and had a great time breaking into Shaun Boyd’s shop and stealing his Festool Domino. What do you think of the results? What would you like to see me test next? Thanks for watching! Please like, comment and subscribe. Cheers!
Shaun Boyd Made This: / @shaunboydmadethis
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#FestoolDominoStrengthTest #vs #MortiseandTenonStrengthTest
Dude, you woke me up from my 3 hour mid-day nap. No worries though, a lot of good information from this test. Glad I could "help"...I guess.
Should've used the dead bolt...
It was Bones making all that noise that woke you up dude. Jon is innocent.
You guys are a great team up! I would love to see more with the two of you working together. You both have information that, put together, is a whole knew look into woodworking
@@katzmosestools
Doing the right thing is always harder!
I have seen a lot of these tests and it seems to me that the failure of the domino is always related to it being so short. I personally dont think 25 mm going into end grain is not sufficient in high load applications and it usually always fails on that end. I do have the domino XL and really enjoy using it not only for the strength of its joinery but more than anything, the accuracy. If I need a particularly strong joint I will make my own 100mm dominos out of scrap that I have on hand. If a joint is hidden I will use a domino because of the speed. All that really matters is real world application. I have not had any fail and that is really the point isn't it? That being said, I feel that the stock dominos could be much longer in many applications, I would prefer a 70mm domino. A test I would like to see is how much more strength a double domino increases its strength over the single. In many applications two smaller dominos side by side increases the glue surface area and can be implemented over one larger domino.
Humor mixed with a solid approach. I believe you captured what was running through my mind!
Cool test! I think this would have been much more useful if you’d used hardwood rather than Pine. Who uses Pine with a Domino? 😂 I’d imagine the Beech Dominos didn’t play particularly well with the Pine. I’d love to see a round two!
I would be interested to see that too, but in addition can you also test butt joints(no tenon)? I would like to see that. I think this was a really well done video!
All i wanted to see was the actual joint break and all i got was a broken heart! At the point of maximum pressure you switched to the next sample, I need to see the destruction!! Lol, great vid!
I built a shed this summer and put deck on it for storing burn wood. I used 12mm dominos and pocket hole screws to hold the floor joists together. I did this because I used rough cut timbers and normal joist hangers don't fit. we proceeded to load 2 cords of wood as high as the awning would allow, to the point that the 10x4 rim joist deflected about 2 inches in the center on a 10ft run. I ended up putting another peer block and support in the middle. But I have had no issues at all with the dominos holding that weight.
excellent experiment. I wondered about this very issue. 20% is significant. Thank you , your qualifications are professional. I think the results speak for themselves. I wonder if the dominoes failed at the glue joints or if the wood fiber failed first.
Killer video Jonathan!
I guess I never thought a domino joint would be stronger, so I'm not surprised, but thank you for testing it out for those of us who are always curious. I would still say a domino would be worth it for someone looking for speed and ease of joinery though
El año
I appreciate the test and the effort that went into it. Would like to see some variations. Like using hardwood. And shop made hardwood dominos. I am betting shop made dominos would be stronger based on improved/increased surface contact for the glue. Unlike you, I have the Domino but not the CNC. It seems to me that the CNC would slow down one off type projects a lot over the Domino, if you take into account the programing time. Thanks again...one more time...
LMAO!! Suck it Shaun Boyd!!! hahaha. Dude! How did I even miss this video?!
I had heard the surface of a domino you buy is not as smooth as one you’d make. Lettering or some pattern, which weakens the joint. If that’s true might be cool to add in some smooth diy dominos.
Thank you
take woodwork at school dont know shit about it but these videos are welllll entertaining
What if the grain of the mortise and tenon were parallel to each other, how would those stats differ? Example, gluing the ends of two 2x4’s together with a Mortis and tenon joinery. Would it be as strong as a 2x4 of the same length without a mortis and tenon?
Great video! Shaun, get a better security system! If some dovetail cutting guy can get into your shop it must not be very good.😁 love both of you guys!
Interesting experiment.
What if the material was a hard wood instead of pine?
Main advantage for Domino is speed. For most of us without access to a CNC, the Domino is much faster then hand-cut M&T. I realize some people, like yourself, can probably cut M&T joints fast enough for that to not matter :)
I wonder if these results are due to stress multipliers created when cutting into the joining piece with the domino. Any 90 degree angle cut into any material will act as a stress multiplier when a lateral force is applied. With traditional mortise and tenon, that 90 degree cut doesn’t exist inside the joining piece.
5:00 curious at the scatter of the original attempt, especially given the variance in hand cut (vs machined or in this case CNC M&T). Another interesting experiment would be joint strength vs "slop" for the different domino settings.
Agreed
This was helpful. Thanks
Have you compared (vertically or horizontally) offset dominoes versus Aligned Dominoes ( or Mortise and tenon). Do you have a video on that?
That’s a pretty FANTASTIC test. I have always wondered if it would be worth purchasing a domino just to speed up projects, but after watching this I can see that a craftsman should never choose speed over quality.
Well, you definitely didn’t starve those glue joints.
What brand of CNC were you using?
It seems to me that the Domino is very, very much quicker and easier then M&T, especially if you have to create the M&T by hand.
So you gonna get a festool domino?
cool test!
I don't use anything like dominoes / biscuits / dowels at all in the panel glue ups, as I use 4-way clamps that force the perfectly jointed and thicknessed boards into perfectly flat alignment. you can see what clamps I'm talking about here: ua-cam.com/video/Dc5Hn6_qiLQ/v-deo.html
for the applications like connecting angled partes for example in chairs / stools etc, I would opt for the dowells because I can make dowells of any diameter myself, and I use dowelling pins, which you insert in one hole, and put pieces together to mark the hole-to-be in the other piece.
I will buy dominos at some point anyway, because it can speed up your work when you are in the production mode.
This is an interesting test. Thank you for putting the time to perform this experiment. The problem is that the weight you reported at which the domino fails needs some clarification since you are using your press at a distant from the domino joint, which is creating a mechanical advantage - in a sense you have a fulcrum located at the middle of your domino and a lever located at the hand press. The domino is not failing at the average weight you reported. The joint at the time of failure is much greater than ~35 lbs.
'just cuttin up some two by fours' hohoho mate you wouldn't be doing that shit nowadays
I would love to see this test again with you making domino's out of the both the same wood as the piece that you are putting them in as well as a wood that is harder (Say a hard maple domino in the pine test piece.) If the domino itself is what was failing, I wonder if a harder species domino would give you stronger results.
Thanks for the test, I’m trying to decide if I should get domino for 3/4 plywood joinery ?
My porter cable biscuits sometimes fail on face frames.
It's a great tool for sure
What, no dovetail joint for testing? 😉
Hahaha that's next
At 10 cents a pop and 30 seconds to create, you would never use just one domino.
With how fat people are getting it is a big factor , also why spend thousands of dollars on a stupid single use festool machine when it can be done with a saw and chisel or a router and a jig . All for way less then it would cost to buy the machine and bag of dominos. I understand the need for speed if your doing production work then yeah I can see it speed you up but not by a lot I bet. New video what’s faster festool or hand cut ?
Appreciate your effort in doing the test, that looked like 45mm stock so I’d have used the df700 if I’d wanted to test the strength, also furniture would never be put under that kind of pressure, I’ve used the df700 140mm x14mm dominos constructing pergolas, also external doors and gates and none have ever failed.
IMO the major benefit of the Domino System is speed. In a professional shop it will earn its cost back in just a few projects.
If the domino failures were caused by the pine board failing, then is test proves the domino is stronger than pine. Wouldn't it be better to use beech (I think that's what the dominos are made from) for all the components? If you can't find beech, then use something of equivalent strength.
Nice gank move! ;) . Great video too. Awesome to see how fast your channel is growing. Here's to more in 2019!
Nice video. Very Matthias Wandel like. Happy new year to you sir!
rich hubert NOT
Any professional woodworker that does not have a Domino is costing themselves a lot of money. You would do 10 joints with a domino to 1 with mortise and tenon.
Thank you, this is highly appreciated, Even being a designer for over 25 years I'm a beginner in woodworking, tests like this help me understand better the materials involved and narrow my possibilities while designing with pencil and paper. Great video, again.
Thank you!
For me, once I determined the domino was more than strong enough, the rest wasn't relevant. The Domino allows for very strong repeatable joints made relatively quickly. That is where it's value is for me.
Same
Chet, hopefully you'll see this, but can you use a domino on things such as building a couch for outside? will the joint be strong enough to a) hold up to people sitting on them b) will the joint fail because it gets hot as hell here in AZ? Thanks.
@@mattcooper7550 The Domino is mainly a tool for making identical mortises quickly and easily. It's nice that you can buy their pre-made tenons. But you could make your own tenons to fit the Domino mortises much more easily than you could cut all those tenons by hand. Does that make sense? The point is, how you cut a mortise doesn't affect whether it's OK outside. For building a couch outside, you need to use wood that can be outside and then give it a finish coat (sealer or paint) that will add protection. And you want to size the mortises / tenons appropriately to the size of the couch lumber and joinery. If the Domino can't cut mortises that big, it's not the right tool for the job.
Hilarious. I'm sure you knew what you were inviting with this. I appreciated what you put out here as "as-is" information with the clear assumption that anybody smart enough to question your methodologies would be smart enough to use your results as far as they applied. I really appreciated you taking the time to put out some free, structured data that is certainly useful if not merely interesting. It was done as a favor the community and you deserve thanks instead of misplaced criticism.
BTW Thanks for the video. I know it was time and labor intensive.
Thanks bud!
We use Dominos in our shop, but I have to say at the Dominos themselves seem to have an inherent flaw. It's well understood that wood glue only has any strength when it is is as thin as possible. The Domino's of course don't really allow the glue to be thin. I would love to see a test using a shop made floating Tenon in a slot cut by a domino cutter. On paper you should be able to get a significantly better result . Chears.
Nope. Check out Matthias Wandel’s test. Wood joints intentionally gapped by 0.3mm were significantly stronger than tighter joints, and joints clamped super-tight to make the glue as thin as possible were significantly weaker, as were joints where a dry tenon was inserted into a glued mortise (which _looks_ like how these Domino joints were constructed).
So, when you say “it’s well understood “, like gluing endgrain, you may find that what is commonly _believed_ is not necessarily _true_.
Try using a 2 part epoxy
Thank you for the video. Two things.
First, I would like to see someone compare a single Domino strength to simply using two 5 cent Lamello Biscuits on top of one another. No one has done that. Even a clone Domino is 17 cents.
Second, I used calipers and measured the thickness of 30 each of DeWalt and Swiss-made Lamello plate joiner Biscuits. Lamello was 1000 for $46.37 from Amazon, which is 4.6 cents each. DeWalt was $7.98 for 100 from Lowes, which is 8 cents each. I calculated the mean and standard deviation of the thicknesses and the Lamello were more than 3x as uniform. 97.7% of Lamello are predicted to be between 3.69 and 4.00mm. DeWalt are 3.34 to 4.31mm. The goal is to be as close to 4mm without going over. Visually, the Lamello have a glue-gripping pattern on each side. The DeWalt had a more shallow grid on one side.
No sense in judging biscuits without using Lamello brand.
Nice video, just one thing it's a bottle jack not a bottle nose jack. It isn't a dolphin so lose the nose.
Joe R this is the same guy who calls his combo square a try square…
3 years later: have you decided to buy a Domino? (enjoyed the video! I wasn't too concerned @ the pine wood vs. beech dowels... I used zillions of birch dowels glueing up redwood or cedar sign panels at my sign shop over the years...)
just watched the video - although 3 years old, it is still very relevant.
But I would like to mention, that one needs to be very careful to compare two averages without doing a statistical analysis to examine, if the average difference measured could be caused by pure chance.
A quick analysis actually shows, that with only a sample size of 6 attempts and a 95% confidence interval the average vertical strenght for Mortise and Tenons ranges from 49.9 (+/- 10.8) lbs and the vertical strenght of the dominos ranges from 39.4 (+/- 8.4) lbs. The difference is no where near statistically significant.
However there is a minute significant difference in the horizontal strenght test - the average horizontal strenght for mortise and tenons ranges from 51.2 (+/- 6.3) lbs and the dominos from 37.8 (+/- 7.9) lbs.
So I don't think you can conclude from this test, that there is an obvious difference in strenght between mortise/tenons and dominos.
The hardwood (beech) domino cut through the soft pine (that's why they didn't break), the M&T was both the same Pine, moe elastic and in the end, broke the tenon; therefore the different results. Willing to bet that we a have test setup failure here (apples & oranges).
Ok - this comment is late. Just found your channel and have skipping around until I saw post. Domino has two fits. Loose and tight and you choose that when you make mortise. You didn’t say which setting you used. The fit between the mortise and tenon - or the domino and tenons will impact glue volume, insertion depth, and mechanical advantage. Moreover the fit depth, unoccupied volume in mortise coupled with fit clearance will also have an effect.
Love the channel.
The next time I wanna hang a heavy object from a a free-swinging narrow board I should prefer the M&T? If BOTH ends of your wooden arm are joined, as in casework, I am sure the strength would be more than enough either way.
I am well versed in critiquing research. I appreciate the fact that you used the CNC machine to make several T&M joints. Your conclusion that a domino is weaker than a CNC made T&M has one problem that you actually mentioned at the start of your video. When you made the T&M by hand (which I imagine most of your viewers are going to do) you had inconsistant results.
The technical term for this is "generalizability," meaning the ability to apply your results to another project. So unless your viewers are using a CNC to make their T&M they should not expect to consistantly have 20% stronger T&M compared to the domino.
Solution, use four groups:
Group 1 domino.
Group 2 experenced woodworker made T&M.
Group 3 novice woodworker made T&M.
Group 4 CNC made T&M joint.
Another interesting finding to measure would be a time comparison for how long each joint took in each group. i.e. domino could make 10 joints in 3 minutes vs experenced/novice woodworkers etc.
is there any issue with the test criteria considering that the M&T joint was pine/pine and the domino is beech into pine? I think you would expect to see wood failure on the domino where you would expect tenon failure on the M&T. we could have anticipated that, no? im expecting closer comparison if all of the materials were the same wood.
Not a fair comparison, and even so, the mortise and tenon kicked the Domino's bum bum. The mortise and tenons were pine, which isn't the strongest wood species, whereas the Dominos were made of a much harder and denser wood, probably beech. If both species were the same, the mortise and tenon might have been stronger by twice as much.
Interesting video for sure! i've never seen another strength test of dominos. I have a domino and thought long and hard before I bought it. I use mine ALL the time, from small projects to large. I never considered the strength aspect, for me its an efficiency issue. The domino is fast and versatile. I am ok with a machine for a joint that no one will ever see unless they break the piece. I was surprised that it wasn't as strong as a mortise and tenon. I love my domino even if its not as strong a joint. Thanks for taking the time to test them ; )!
Meh. Video should be titled 'Floating Tenon vs Traditional'. The end results are pretty obvious with that title. The Domino is nothing more than click bait.
Results were similar horizontal to vertical because of the square profile. Try rectangular profile for comparison...?
Use a couple of larger Dominoes, Dominoes are so easy. A couple of M&T by hand can take a long time...
Seems like the dominoes was the weak link...maybe make a domino out of a wood harder than what you put it in, like a oak domino glued in a piece of pine. Then redo the test.
This maybe just a test of difference of strength of pine and material of small domino piece not really about domino vs. mortise
Strong enough is…. Which system was quicker to deploy and by how much?
test is not consistent as they were glued up at different times so they have had different drying times.
Loved the video and the new website! But did I notice that the domino mortise was wider than the tenon (middle setting on the domino), which might have made it weaker?
I've been asking myself the same question ( M & T vs D) for the last year. I'm absolutely thrilled you took the time to answer this question for me , and with a convincing "scientific " approach. Thumbs up for that. I am biased toward M & Tenon, because of the long tradition and beauty of this joint. However, ya can't beat Dominos for speed and if you're running a commercial shop it's become an essential tool. That said, I think they're both strong enough joints that visual appeal in design becomes the deciding factor. Thanks, you're the best!
good stuff, I knew the mortise and tenon would be stronger but the domino is still a great invention for accuracy and speed. As you mentioned, with modern glues all joints are stronger now than they were in the past. Good video.
Just a thought. The mortise and tenon as same wood species (pine im assuming) whilst the domino wood species might be a hardwood (not sure). That might throw off the result
This is great. I think more people should be doing things like this.
And now that you have the setup for testing, you could do any number of other trials: box joints vs dovetails, half lap vs bridle joints, test different wood glue brands (gorilla wood glue vs Elmer's wood glue vs titebond).
Lol at the break and enter. Ha ha good video man
Would be fun to see some other tests. Like a tension test, or a shear test, where the jack is placed right at the joint.
If everything Festool made didnt cost a thousand bucks or more, maybe I'd try it.
The more I think about it the more I think your test pieces need to be made out of beech. Dominoes are made out of beech. I think using them in softer wood is the reason the joints broke more easily.
There comes a point where strong enough is a factor. You have to weigh the difference between strength and speed and mobility. I have both of the Domino machines and I still use a Kreg jig where applicable. Like face frames, I use pocket screws because they are hidden and I don’t have to clamp it. Saves time. Doors or other joints that are visible, I use Dominos. Some joints are made for their strength and aesthetics. Like dovetails, through M&T and lap joints. None of those options are faster or as mobile as the Domino. You can also use a Domino to add strength to other joints like miters or cope and sick joints. Much more difficult or time consuming than using a Domino to add splines.
*.moo[ Voyage to the Bottom of the Sea
?@@lenmcdaniel6698
little hard to read numbers in white text only just fyi
interesting, I would like to see the same experiment done using shop made dominos (ensure that the wood was the same stock as the tenons)
You probably just ruined your chance of Festool sending you a free Domino tool and sponsoring a video. Lol
Hahahaha probably
I think you just sold me on a pantorouter over a domino!
I've used one. Those things are awesome!
Ah this is so entertaining! Nice collab!
Glued wood joint testing is very difficult to do well.
I have only recently started wood working. After several, miserable failed attempts at hand cutting M&T joints and hating the look of pocket holes with screws, I went out on a limb and purchased a Festool 700. Expensive, OUCH! But I have the knowledge that my cabinets don't have any metal in them and are a huge step above commercially made cabinets. Even with my mediocre skills I can make a joint that is all wood and has what I think is strength enough for anything I will be making. I am not willing to make any chairs yet.
The pantorouter/CNC machine you used for your M&T joints, financially and logistically is beyond my means. I do not have the space and cannot justify the cost of either.
Your dovetail jig is a wonderful tool and I have only practiced with it a few times. I will be doing some drawers and will try to make your jig work.
Great video and an absolutely important question answered. Not what I was hoping for but the knowledge is very important to have.
Gay
Two minutes worth of info delivered in 8 long minutes by a big mouthed guy talking like a machine gun
Then don't watch you chromosome collecting, inbred golden retriever.
Nice test. Logically the Domino is floating tenon and the M&T has the advantage of essentially infinite grain strength in one direction. A cool variant of this test would be to make pine Dominos at longest length the Domino will drill and test that against M&T. Got me with the "jack" callout 😂
Can I still order your flip stop
Great video jon, hardwood test next pls
M&T is also naturally tight unlike a domino. You can see this in some chair legs. After a long period of time, the glue seem to work themselves apart. Now this may be just the glue, but a M&T would still be tight via friction on all four corners. If you pin or wedge it... Well that's not coming out. Unfortunately, a chair made with dominoes is probabaly considered a premium feature these days. Most are connected with the thinnest il fitting dowels that they can find. Nothing wrong with dowels, it's just that they always seem to choose the tiniest 1/4 ones.
Would have been interesting to compare with just a glue joint. Might turn out to be good enough...
I like the test and the caper. I use both techniques. In the real world application I agree that either would work. Since time is money, the domino will win everytime. I do enjoy the challenge of hand cut mortise and tenon.
That thing is seriously so easy to use!
domino + cola = muy fuerte
Great test , i would of thought the Domino would be the stronger its a huge investment in Aus a Festool Domino is around $1599aus , then the cost of the dominoes on top of that .
Totally agree
We make our own dominos. We have the XL and the normal sized domino, that XL is a machine, used it to cut mortises in thick stock, works a treat, also love the normal sized domino. But huge time saver in a work environment.
I’m making some maloof style chairs so got interested in buying a domino but I realized the domino’s limitation is the depth of the joint, ie not very deep. Since joint strength is related to glue surface area by almost any method this is a serious limitation.
As many of my joined parts will be max 1.5” square and then sculpted I’m going with large hardwood dowels. I’m sure in a production shop a domino proves cost effective.
Can you use a domino on things such as building a couch for outside? will the joint be strong enough to a) hold up to people sitting on them b) will the joint fail because it gets hot as hell here in AZ? Thanks.
I'm barely a weekend DIYer wood worker so it be hard to justify any domino let alone one over $1,000. A good friend has his shop filled to the ceiling with green tools and tells me the biggest difference between my multi colored tools and his is the ease of set up and repeatability.
I don’t think you tested either joint for what they were designed for. You more or less tested how the glue holds the joints from being pulled out if the joint. Maybe if your fulcrum was closer to the joint but then you would need much stronger test fixtures. You still make good vids though.
Hullo young man, very interesting test you have just done. Now, if I want to build repetitive chairs, glass cabinets, British style sideboard's, I think you get the picture. I will spend hundred's of pounds and maybe a bit more, I will buy a Festool domino. As I am a wood worker of simple need's and mind I will stick to the other way. Router, good bit Japanese saw sharp chisel's and a marking Knife. Oh, timber. The second way to me is the sheer enjoyment of being calm and looking at my inner self. That's my rant over.
There is a similar test video put out by Dowelmax testing their dowels against dominoes. Check it out. It doesn't have any lock- picking though
The poundage shown at the breaking point could be misleading. At 9 in out there is a lot of leverage on the joint. The math could be done to show breaking strength. But overall point stipulated.
Further research showed that Katz-Moses pizza is better than Domino's too :P
Thanks for the vid Jonathan, just goes to show you don't always need the best and most expensive tools to come up with a very good job, learning some good woodworking skills can be just as valuable.
It seems to me that to get a sense of the strength of the joints, it would have been good to place the jack much closer to the joint. The leverage at the 9 inch mark is substantial and greater than what I think the actual forces on a chair would be. On a chair, wouldn't the force be closer to shear?
So this gives us an idea of the comparative strengths, but as I am just starting to look into dominos, I am looking to understand their actual strength.
But the test was very coo,l and I appreciate the thought that went into it.
Breaking and entering with intent to Domino ? I got you now sumbitch ! Lol great video Jonathan, Merry Christmas and Happy New Year ~