Forget Mortise and Tenons... THIS joint is better.
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- Опубліковано 13 тра 2023
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• This Simple Joint is S...
Where I test out dovetails, box joints, rabbets and miters!
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One of the main advantages of morris and tenon joinery was before glue was commonly used. A mortise and tenon can be pegged and will be quite strong with no glue at all. Try that with the other joints.
a lutherie trick: it's better to have slightly rough surfaces in the contact/glue area, especially with woods that are difficult to joint (due to their high oil content). It does not hurt to make small "scratches" in the areas before joining, especially on processed boards (mdf, plywood, etc)
My thoughts, you expose the ends of the fibres and the get glued together across the joint. Almost like a micro finger joint
Rouhg surfaces also have more surface area which increases the strength of the joint.
If you are concerned about dry-squeeze then yes. Otherwise there is nothing to be gained with ordinary electrochemical glues as the wood is aready the weakest link. Any thickness above minimum will decrease the strength of the glue part of the joint. For glues that rely on mechanical tack (plastics typically) it is advantageous.
I disagree. Regular wood glue is not gap-filling, and you get the strongest bond with _smooth_ faces in perfect contact with each other. That's why we have jointers. With your technique, you should use certain types of construction adhesive (e.g. Liquid Nails) or epoxy with fillers appropriate to the gap size.
I used to feel so uncool for making my half lap joints on my table saw because it was easy. Now I can feel quite smug and confident!
spoiler alert! no point watching til the end anymore.
@@Craig-qx7uy Why are you reading comments before watching if not to look for spoilers?
The fact that you use a lap joint puts you above those who can't think past the butt joint.
@jjbailey01 I'd like to see the mortise vs half lap mid way down the board
Smug CONFIDENCE _can_ become your greatest ASSET 👍👍!
Mortise and Tenon joints were considered the "strongest" for a reason - they last.
Lap-joints certainly are stronger but in general they will fail earlier as they are fully reliant (in most configurations) on the strength of the glue. So when seasonal changes in temperature and humidity slowly degrade the glue the Lap-join will just fall apart. Where as the Mortise will still hold together decently even without any glue. Mortise is also stronger against loads in other directions.
But the joints that are nearly always the weakest are the butt- and miter-joint. They are just inherently weaker as they do not have a mechanical locking nor a lot of surface nor continuous grain. Of course to everything there are exceptions. If you have something like say a house-frame then one of the best ways to connect a horizontal top-plate to the vertical struts is just ... laying it flat on top - a butt joint. For the loads it will have to withstand this is just the strongest it can get.
Thank you for that write-up. I often wonder why there is no focus on how glue holds up over the years. I understand that is hard to test for a youtube channel, but by not discussing it, I feel it is simply a subject intentionally glanced over because it is inconvenient. I know modern glues are really strong, but do they keep strong?
Any thoughts on doweling lap and bridle joints?
@@KrahsThe "but do they keep strong?"
Depends on the glue and situation. In general yes - as most of our furniture is indoors where the temperature and humidity is relatively stable, specially when compared to say 200 years ago. More stable glue and climate make it last far longer.
@@WompWompWoooomp Doweling lap - which direction? if there is a rotational moment then the dowel can certainly help hold it together.
And bridle joint is my favourite anyways (together with simple lap-joints).
But for both - they will not just fall apart as easily as a lap-joint, but for the bridle it really depends on the load it experiences: Pulling apart or rotating out? Doesn't fair much better once the glue is broken.
Great comment. Years ago I made a garden gate out of 2x4s. (Not pressure treated).. Each corner was a wedged mortise and tennon and I added a diagonal brace that I dovetailed into place. I only used glue to "hold it together ".. the glue failed in the first season or two but that cheesey little gate stayed together and functioning for years till it rotted to pieces.
"because no one knows how much effort we put into anything, it's the ultimate joint" 😂
You can have taller hair in the new shop! My joint test was to build a workbench with tool storage, put hundreds of pounds of tools in it and load it into a container. The container went by truck, rail, ship, barge and truck from NC to Hawaii. Then 5 years later, to CO. In between, I used it as a workbench. Wedged M&T joints are fine 20 years later.
I appreciate that you hit on the gripe I have about all of these "OMG STRONGEST JOINT" videos, going back to Matthias' seminal video. Use a joint that's strong enough, meets the aesthetics of what you're making, and will last the desired lifespan of the part. I see no problem with some pocket screws and plywood for workbench drawers, but I wouldn't use it for (hopefully) heirloom furniture. There's no one size fits all joinery and that's part of the fun ;)
He used a 1/4" bit for the mortise. Come on now.
A "chocolate teapot" actually makes perfect sense. It is a thing intended to hold hot liquid, made out of a material that melts very easily.
And it's an existing turn of phrase in some regions, so ChatGPT didn't even come up with it itself
Swert and tempting, but absolutely impractical.
A chocolate teapot will work if the tea water is cool or if using hot water, the tea is made in a freezer.
@@maplebones I like the outside the box thinking, but I'm looking forward to the youtube video where you test the freezer hypothesis. 😀
Nice! I always love watching these woodworking joint testing videos. Also, nice new shop!
The new shop is looking great. I especially like the wood roll up door. Looking forward to the next installment.
As always, thanks for the video. I need to go through and watch all of your sled/jig videos. Appreciate your time sir.
This video is as solid as a combo half-lap/bridal/mortise and tenon joint with 3 hickory dowels. Well done! Looking forward to seeing more of your new garage shop.
I was going to mention the dowels. 🤬 You stole my thunder. NaYa.
By dowels I mean from side to side not internally. Drawboard style. Even the splined mitre, IMHO, can be tarted up with two (or more 😳), contrasting dowels either side of the mitre but through the spline can look great. 🤩
@@DB-thats-me drive them dowels at an angle and you won't care about the glue failing. 'sides, ellipses are cooler than the circles.
Hey Scott! It was cool meeting you in person last week in Toronto at the Festool event. Another great video. I just tried making a half lap joint last week for the first time, but it’s great to see its strength quantified in relation to other common joints. Looking forward to the next video!
It was great chatting with you Aaron! Cheers!
I recently read something about gluing end grain that is claimed to make it much stronger. The issue with gluing the end grain is that the end grain behaves like a glue sponge and wicks the glue down into the wood and away from the joint, with the result is that critical thin glue layer might not be continuous across the entire joint surface, resulting in a weak joint.
The solution offered was to let the end grain soak up as much glue as it wants, and then apply additional glue! To do this, slather glue to the piece with end grain and allow it to sit for 5-10 minutes (but not so long that it starts to dry and set). Then apply additional glue and clamp the joint. This should saturate the end grain with glue so the additional glue stays in the joint space rather than being wicked down into the end grain.
I would be very curious if you have heard of this, if you have tried it, and, of course, if it actually makes the joint any stronger.
Yes! I've tried it on a test piece of just some 2x4 spruce about 8 inches long. Definitely makes a strong joint, I can't break it by stomping on it.
Try a quick double glue application. I glued some red oak with an end grain glue up, as you know, oak is so straight grained porous you can stick an end in water and blow bubbles. I applied glue, let it wick into the grain, applied again, creating a micro "finger joint" with the glue. As glue is typically stronger than wood, the joint is amazingly strong. Try it for fun. I've found the more the glue wicks into the wood, the stronger the butt joint, the caveat being to make sure the second glue application takes place when the first is still tacky. fun experiment.
Never had good luck with a lap joint. I definitely like the spline and will use it. Thank you for testing.
Thank you very much. That was a very thorough test and most illuminating.
A while ago i started using half-lap joints in typical 2x4 construction and it's amazing just how much stronger things became. Even without glue (just screws) everything is way more rigid since in something like a T shape (and to an extent a regular 90) the end of one board is kept from splitting by the board it's cut into. I use a radial arm saw with a small dado stack in it since boards are often too big to be safely shaped on a table saw.
when you start working with plywood sheets then half laps are super easy to setup as you dont even have to cut them, just lay two pieces on top of each other and have them extend out the width of the joint and voila, instant half laps all over.
This was a lovely video. Your beauty shots of all your joints are fantastic. Some nice tips and tricks sprinkled in.
Grwat video! I just made some flat panel quarter-sawn oak cabinet diors using bridle joints, and I'm pretty sure they will last longer than the house they're going to be installed in. 😁
Wonderful video, congrats on the new shop!!
Thanks Scott! Excellent video. Nice to know easy can be just as good, if not better than, fancy.
That is quite the eye opening video! Thanks for posting this very useful info.
Thanks for mentioning Stewart!
Thank you for the (series of) excellent joinery videos. I loved it and I especially liked that you showed homemade jig options for each method.
One small point I would like explained further… when you are splining a miter joint isn’t almost all the added strength added to resist “closing the book” vs “opening it”? I would love to see a testing series based on the real world failures of frames. Dropping against a corner, etc
Thanks for the awesome videos !
Like your style. Always instructive. Always entertaining.
Very useful, thank you!
I think its misleading to say that the bridle and half lap are stronger than the mortise and tenon. They are stronger for a force coming from that specific direction, but a mortise and tenon would do better resisting forces from other directions. Joints are held together by glue strength and mechanical interference and the way you are testing these joints puts the half lap and bridle in the best situation, where they have both the advantage of large glue surface area and mechanical interference. If you were put a force in the opposite direction (pressing down of the levered parted of the joint instead of up) you would lose the mechanical interference and just rely on the glue strength. In fact in the six possible directions (up, down, left, right, towards, away) the half lap only has mechanical interference in two directions (up and towards), a bridle has mechanical interference in three directions (up, towards and away) and a mortise and tenon has mechanical interference in 5 (up, down, towards, away and left). If you put a dowel in your mortise and tenon it has mechanical interference in all six directions. This is why it is a joint you can use even without glue and why it is so popular for pieces of furniture which will experience forces from several different directions.
Obviously the bridle and half lap have their place and they will likely stand up fine in a piece of furniture, but you shouldn't think of them as a 1-to-1 improvement over a mortise and tenon.
They also aren’t directly interchangeable. You can’t use all these things in every situation.
Sure I guess if you’re making picture frames you have all these options but when you’re making furniture I fail to see how half laps should be used to make table bases, for example. Maybe I’m not that creative or maybe it’s because m&t is simply the right overall choice in that application.
Awesome video, can't wait for more!
Excellent job! And a pantorouter shot!
A nice test of the common flat joints. Since I make a lot of boxes, I'm looking forward to your upright joint tests. Though I will say that since I'm not making wooden strongboxes, I still mostly use the easier to construct splined half-lap upright joints for the corners. Yes, I'm sure finger joints (which I think are ugly) and dovetail joints (way cool, but with high skill & time requirements) are stronger, the modest half-lap, reinforced with structural AND decorative splines, is strong enough for my use. It's also easy to cut rabbets along the top and bottom edges of the side pieces for the inserted lid and bottom.
richard
--
“Everything that needs to be said has already been said. But since no one was listening, everything must be said again.”
- André Gide
Thanks for these awesome videos. I’m trying to build a fairly basic shelf, except I need it to fit inside of a closet with a small door, so I need to be able to assemble (and hopefully disassemble it when needed) easily inside the closet. Also, I have limited tools, I do have a miter saw, a circular power saw, some chisels that I’m terrible at using. I’m considering getting a router, as they are fairly affordable and don’t take up much storage space, not sure what bits I’d need (and bits seem pricey). I’m trying to avoid buying a table saw, as I don’t have the space for it, and do as few cuts as possible, so I’ll be getting pre-cut 2x4s for the legs (I think) and pre-cut shelves (48x15.75). Since I want it to be easy to assemble and disassemble, I’m trying to avoid screws and angle brackets as much as I can. I’ve been researching wood joints. Thinking something like a half lap or dovetail to prevent the frame that would hold the shelf from sliding in or out of the legs. Also considering trying to do dadoes in the main legs for the shelves to go into, but I’d still need something to make the whole thing stay together, and to stop the shelves from sliding out. Or maybe just a mortise & tenon with some soft of a peg, to stop it from sliding out for the long way part of the frame, and maybe halved lap joint for the short way to hold it all together. Hopefully this makes sense, any suggestions for joints and tools needed?
Not sure if it's a new camera, lens filter, or the lights in the new shop but this video is on a new level
Definitely the hair
Great job Scott! Interesting results. I know a preponderance of woodworkers focus on joint strength, but is that because we are only seeing the amateur woodworker side on YT? What about the professional woodworker perspective? The TIME == $$ perspective. Do I really need my drawer joints to support 500 lbs of force? What about a utility curve perspective? Time/effort vs strength or another way to say it would be how fast/cheap can I make the joint that's good enough for the purpose? Looking forward the 2nd part video! (the new shop looks great!)
Great video and I love the pompadour!👍🏾
says in Elvis' voice: thank you very much
Been watching the progress on Instagram. Super excited to watch this
Excellent. Thank you.
Missed your videos Scott, glad to have you back!
3:55 The miter was 2.4 times stronger than the butt. Most of this difference could be explained by the miter joint being 41% longer (=sqrt 2) than a butt joint. Beam bending strength increases with the cube of the beam height.
1.41^3 = 2.7
I suppose the difference could be in the end-edge grain difference and whether the outside corner buckled.
I have a Festool Domino, one definitevely don't NEED it, but it makes your life so much easier. I believe it worth it's price.
Very nice show, dialog content and delivery great.
Nice work, keep these videos coming
I do love a good joint.
I love the look of the bridle and half lap but the mortise and tenon has another longevity benefit that might not ever actually matter, but m&t holds together on the ends when other joints might pull away from humidity. that's because the m&t has that enclosed wood framing. It could split but that would require force that would also pull the other joints away too.
Hey Scott, thanks for doing this test. Really solid methodology and I always appreciate these tests that challenge conventional methods. Could you say a bit about your clamping technique for the the mortise and tenon joint? Clearly one has to clamp the half lap joint with pressure perpendicular to the faces, but I'm wondering if you used clamps in that way for the M&T. Since the glue is providing the strength of these joints, clamping pressure is theoretically hugely important.
M &T joints are designed to have a substantial pin through them to counteract the torque loads that he is testing. This is a prime example of why people getting their technical information on UA-cam are a danger to society.
Perfect way to start the day.
I would definitely love to see some tests on differently proportioned mortise and tenon joints at some point, I can't really find any testing online.
Great video! So thorough 🎉
Reason you were getting crazy numbers on the box joint was due to the jack being so close to the joint. Double the distance from the jack to the joint, and will break at 1/2 the force. It's like using a torque wrench, longer the handle, the easier it is to turn.
I wrote a blurb about this in the description, but in short, I wanted to do a sheer strength test.
@@ScottWalshWoodworking *shear. Sheer is like a cliff face (nearly vertical), a thin fabric (practically see-through), or unmitigated (sheer delight).
I'm excited to see Part 2!
@@haphazard1342just so you know, most of us are on our phones. It’s hard as hell to type on these things and autocorrect gets things wrong more than it does right.
So don’t be that guy who points out typos made by our stupid phones. Nobody likes that guy. He didn’t think sheer and shear were the same thing and you’ve helped nobody by being pretentious and giving us definitions and spelling lessons.
The traditional tenon width is 4/10. And like with dovetails the single best reason to use it is the ability to forego glue. Heck, if you work with varying degrees of green, like stick chairs, you don't even have to peg the joints.
The advantage of the half lap over the tenon is that you clamp the two sides of the joint together. You don't have that in a tenon joint, so the contact of each surface of it isn't tight.
Great review... Also appreciated your dowel-biscuit-domino comparison video too! 'Butt joint science' .....Awesome.
Not all joints are equal, but "by how much" is tricky to tell. The tests I see treat the joint as a monolithic structure. In fact, it is composed of many micro-elements. So when the splined miter is tested in a mode (compression, or pushing the two ends together; vs. tension, pulling the two ends apart), you have to examine the elements. External compression of a joint creates both compression and tension in the wood; likewise, tension test of a joint also creates both tension and compression elements in the wood, but the locations are different (of course). The role of the spline changes depending on whether the wood at the spline is in tension or compression. A spline doesn't help much when it's in compression; but when in tension, the spline can enlarge the stress area, allowing more stress before failure. The joint is not uniform in its strength direction, and most testing only operates in a single direction, which makes simple conclusions very difficult.
Thanks for testing - it's great to see some unexpected results, but mortise in MT joint usually does not goes so close to the end of the board - there should be some "meat" left for joint to hold on.
Thanks!
If you're not painting the cabinets (in which case you'd be looking at a lot of painted endgrain whenever you opened a door), and if the client isn't averse to some endgrain in their door joinery, the bridle makes for a highly attractive joint. I know I sent hundreds of such doors (meaning thousands of such joints) out into the world, where they would last a few centuries in the unlikely event they don't get scrapped in about ten years time, which is about as long as kitchens survive before the next remodel, in the U.S at least. Sort of sad to think about it like that. Then there's the thousands of handcut dovetails in the drawers…
_Fine Woodworking_ magazine did this test a few years ago (I think they may do it periodically), and I recall the bridle proved to be the strongest. I did a more informal test on my bridle joints: I glued together a rail and stile, stood the stile upright on the floor, and then made a seat of the rail by putting virtually all my weight on the distal end. When the joint didn't budge it was good enough for me.
Great video! Did you say how long the glue joints set and dried for and what type of glue, as those factors affect the joint strength?
Fascinating!
Thanks
Nice job Scott
In most cases the mortis and tendon is the strongest joint if you apply tension in all directions and also it is a concealed joint as to say not exposing itself this is essential in fine cabinetry
A whole lap does exist. Just slap those two boards together without any cutting. :)
An important point: the solidity of an assembly depend of the proportions: so, if you try with a thicker miter, or if you have a thicker tenon it will be stronger.
As you see, the sides of the mortises are 2/3 and tenon is 1/3. The miter you used was perhaps only 1/5 or less.
Even, that's widely strong enough to build a furniture.
Congratulations on the new workshop!
Thanks Pete!
Nice video and a lot of useful information. For bridle joint @14:25 you mentioned that only one setup is sufficient to cut both sides of the joint. I am trying to figure that out. Could you please elaborate or better yet create a dedicated video on how to setup and create a bridle joint? Thanks in advance.
Thank you Borat
Damn good video! Very intelligent. Good info. Please make more videos.
Being old, 68, I started in late 1960s. Glues were nowhere near as strong and the only machines we had were lathes. Tenons and mortices had to be strong without glue, maybe with a peg, and the glue was not as strong as the wood. Now, the wood fails before the wood
Very good video Scott. One question, I noticed your joints broke a lot on the actual wood, then the question is: do you think if you use harder wood the joints would be stronger? Maybe another video, hopefully...
youtube just randomly suggested you to me, and it was a great reccomendation, you are so interesting to watch and talented, the first video was the flipping coffee table haha
The mortise and tenon is the Holy Grail because of its difficulty, not because of its strength. I don't even bother with them. Time management is king for my shop.
I've always liked the look of a half-lap with a dowel through it.
Or a mortise and tenon with 1 or 2 dowels through them.
Great video lots of info to take in
HE RETURNS! Make more videos please Scott!
The other guy's miter splines also went full depth on the miter; yours were limited to a bit over half by your table saw blade.
Good job on the video, the new space looks great. Is that jig you use for tenoning and splines your own design? Seems like it swaps easily between the two tasks.
I honestly can't remember where I got that idea/design from. I've also used it to create large under bevels on smallish table tops
I wish you showed the breaking in more detail.
You have two fundamentally different types of failure: The glue, or somewhere that's not the joined surface.
Your first miter joint was interesting in that it opened up gradually as you increased the force, rather than breaking suddenly.
Your lap joint broke elsewhere, meaning the glue was the strongest part. The bridle joint improved the strength because you had
grain going in two directions at right angles, like plywood. This makes it more difficult to pull the fibers apart in one of the legs.
Also, note that you can make a lap joint that looks like a miter, on one side.
Hell Scott.. I thought I was the only silly goose in a woodworking shop..
A nice addition would be cross dowelling the bridle and lap joints like a draw bore mortice and tenon
Scot...Great to see a fellow CDN 🇨🇦🇨🇦🇨🇦 woodworker online...grand You Tube videos!! Have learned a lot...& you saved me from diving into a Domino kit!! Is there a link to David "Presutti's" Miter sled build?
Forgive me if this was pointed out, but keep in mind the distance from the joint where the jack presses changes the leverage it gains. As long as it is consistent, the measured break results should be relatively true. But I noticed in the teaser clip of a different joint, that the jack was about 1/2 closer to the joint. This result will not be true, relative to the others.
I hope that makes sense…
Love the video, though!
nice test jig! except it would be better to put the bottle jack outside of the scale to joint pathway, so that the effects of you pumping on the jack handle do not interfere with the measurement.
Simple explanation regarding half-lap: glue, when fully dried, is stronger than the wood it's holding together. This is why plywood exists...
I like your miter spline jig. I have an idea to make it more versatile. It appears that it is made for only one width of mitered wood pieces. Why not make one of the angled pieces to slide horizontally to accommodate various widths. Mill a horizontal slot in one of the 45° pieces and add some tee-nuts to the sled. Attach the movable piece to the sled with bolts with knows. To use it, place the workpiece in the jig, move the movable piece to the desired opening and tighten the movable piece.
Awesome video.
Traditional cabinet joinery does not need glue. For example, a corner lap is a glue joint, whereas a mortice and tenon is self-supporting. The Japanese are masters at wood joinery designs.
Tis all about application. If you are making picture frames, then a glued mitre will work just fine as long as there are no weight/stress issues associated with the overall project. As I used to tell students you can keep trying differing joints for different situations and details, but do be aware that you don't need an elephant gun to shoot a mouse. Tis all about application.
Indeed. And all the joinery looks different. And they aren’t always interchangeable. You can’t use a half lap everywhere you can use a m&t. Basically , pick the one that looks the way you want for your design, as long as it’s strong enough to handle the load it needs to handle.
The major difference between butt joints and miters is that end grain allows much greater surface area due to the channels naturally present to accept glue in the end grain, as opposed to the negligible spaces in the surface of the flat of the board.
Following your conclusion about the lap joint leads me wondering if I should have used a version of that for the Shaker entry table I just made for my wife. Being a novice, I struggled to make good mortis and tenon joints. They'll hold together and look fine from the outside, but I sure ain't proud of the quality- it ended up being a hack job. Seeing this video makes me realize I might have been able to use a lap joint to join the apron to the leg (from the inside of the leg), especially since I was going to add corner blocks anyway. (sigh) Any thoughts on that? Thanks!
9:56 Ohhhh NOOOOOO! NO WAY!... I heard those "encouraging" and "thoughtful" words once before, many years ago!... 12 to 18 hours before I woke up in the woods next to a briefcase full of cash three states away from home wearing the front-half of a two-person Unicorn costume... Thank god I had an entire paramedic-flight bag stuffed full of Funions and Pepsi!.. It was a long and awkward walk. BUT, at least it was raining really hard the entire time to take my mind off of the missing finger!
If more glue is the way to get a stronger joint then clearly the best thing to do is to get rid of the wood completely and make everything out of glue and rename our profession to Glueworking.
Putting glue in your joint won't make it stronger and it's not good for your health. All the best to you. Bye
I'm curious: when is strength a factor? Certainly making a box, certainly not when making a cabinet door frame. Perhaps match the joint type to strength?
Very well-made and interesting video. +1 sub !
The strength of a simple miter joint is good enough for anything, and it looks decent, and if you want to make it look fancy there is such a variety of ways you can do that with spines. I don't think there's any reason to bother with fancy dovetailing and the skill that you have to develop for that when you can do something that looks almost as cool and is as strong.
Hey Scott, just wondering what size your workshop is, I'm planning on taking up woodworking as a hobby, and right now the best space i have is a 10 foot by 7 foot galvanised shed, any tips?!
How about the most maligned joint the pocket screw? For case work more than strong enough and quick and easy.
I was a little surprised by the strength differences.
Thank You
This was awesome man! As an engineer I love data as a woodworker I love wood. I love hand tools and joints so this was right up my alley. Subscribed and this was my first time seeing your stuff! I'm going to describe you to my friends as mclovin the woodworker though.
my high school nickname still chases me
Chocolate teapots can actually be really helpful in certain situations
I only subscribed for the glasses. Please bring them back 👓
Educational and entertaining! Thank you for honoring others who give us test results as well as your own testing, which is credible and invaluable.
Welcome back!