the problem with fantasy adaptations
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- Опубліковано 25 лип 2024
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thank you to everyone who commented and contributed to the video. I'm really curious what everyone else thinks about the current state of fantasy adaptations, so please let me know. Also, Daniel made a great video discussing the various strengths of adaptation mediums, you should check it out: • Does Storytelling Medi...
the original post: • Post
0:00 My Thoughts
1:42 Your Thoughts
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#lordoftherings #wheeloftime #fantasy - Розваги
Also, Daniel made a great video discussing the various strengths of adaptation mediums, you should check it out: ua-cam.com/video/bMoBped43WA/v-deo.html
Nice of you to give the smaller unknown youtubers a shoutout :)
Talk about Twin Peaks lol
I could see it now, just after the credits roll on season one of the rings of power... Gandalf walks into a bar and sits right next to Galadriel and says, "I'm putting together a team." Then he looks directly into the camera and winks as the avengers theme plays.
ok but that would be epic
I mean, that was basically the B-plot of The Hobbit movies.
Galadriel: "Oh, with whom?"
Gandalf: "Thirteen dwarves and one hobbit"
Galadriel: "...if you're not going to be serious, just leave"
Having not watched the video yet, somehow I misread "Galadriel" as "Garfield". It was an interesting experience
A bar? Could it be the Prancing Pony perchance?
really enjoy when you get into the longer and more fleshed out videos so I’m dispatching a swat team to your location, they will be there shortly.
thanks man...oh wait
Fantasy trying to appeal to people who look down on the genre is SUCH a good way to describe some of the more recent adaptations. It reminds me of Lindsey Ellis's videos on GOT calling HBOs development strategy basically being "not your lame nerd fantasy, it's hot fantasy that f*cks".
Stories are increasingly being written to appeal to the critics instead of the fans, totally ignoring the wisdom "you cant please everybody" in order to prove that sometimes you end up pleasing NOBODY
Yeah that is a spot on take I feel. I remember everyone was into GoT when it was out. I still remember one of my friends trying to sell us on it while my other one was just messing around joking about how stupid it sounds to him. Eventually he started watching it and both of them were wondering why I didn't even start yet. Second I did, we all started talking about it to the point where my friend and I end up talking to some random woman in our elevator about what we think will happen. I feel the thing is too, most people are already into fantasy, it just needs a good story to tell. What my friends and this random woman talked about the show wasn't the effects or the look of the show, it was the story. We were all wondering what was going to happen next.
Trying to please everybody just ends up with you pissing everyone off
To be honest, bad show writing isn't unique to Fantasy. There is a LOT of bad writing out there. I blame what I call scene-writers, getting too full of themselves and start thinking they can write stories as well, because the wrote good scenes for existing stories. That is certainly what happened with GoT, and you see the same with the Star Wars sequels, with The Witcher season 2, the Magicians season 4+, etc, etc.
Perfect explanation, exactly what happened to the Wheel of Time.
Its like when people said "this is fantasy for grown ups" and I just think "oh, you mean like Thomas Covenants exploration of human isolation and delusion or the Fionavar tapestries meditation on free will or the farseers amazing character study of a young half noblemans son or Jordans critique on the chosen one trope and its consequence? No? Its because the shows got boobies in it? Its because the shows got boobies in it."
Personally I think that these big companies just have no idea how great art is made. They think that getting a well known IP and then throwing cash at it will result in a good/popular product, which will usually not happen. Take the LoTR movies for example, where Peter Jackson approaches a production company with a vision and that company then just giving him what he asks for, opposed to a production company coming to him a decade later, giving him some money and telling him to make the Hobbit movies (but made so that they will make the most profit possible).
It's a good example because it's the same writers, director, and general creative team that's behind both trilogies and the difference in quality is absolutely astounding. The difference is one was made out of passion and one out of greed.
the hobbit movies are fascinating on that level, and totally dull as movies themselves
Good point
Let's not forget that Guillermo Del Toro was the original director, and Peter Jackson took over after he left. This meant he didn't have time to do things how he wanted to. But your point still stands.
@@Seth_M-T I know that, that's part of my point. On LoTR Peter Jackson was the one who came with the idea, whereas on the Hobbit he got subbed in by Warners after Del Toro apparently didn't want to make what was basically lotr 2.0. He originally said that he didn't even want to do The Hobbit, but then Del Toro got the boot and he was probably offered a shitton of money, plus he could keep production in New Zealand. I don't blame Jackson that much for the disaster that was The Hobbit, I think it's clear that the studio's are to blame for most things.
Some stuff seems like they take the same basic story, sprinkle it with references to the media they're "adapting" and then call it good.
But it's so boring and bland. Everything that made the original interesting is stripped away to try to force it into a mold.
My problem is how stale these shows are from a technical perspective.
When a show like Euphoria is VISUALLY more fantastical than WoT and Witcher there’s a problem.
FACTS
What is WoT?
@@Shesvii Wheel Of Time
Haha, I can see this for sure. Many scenes in these fantasy shows feel like they just went to some random woods on someone's private property, found an elegant clean little clearing, and plopped down some actors in pristine costumes in the middle to argue with each other. The presentation of these worlds is arguably more important than the worlds themselves for a visual medium such as television!
@@DirkMcThermot I was talking about shot composition and lighting. But I do agree about the unimaginative locations.
One thing I noticed with the new "fantasy age" after GoT is that every fantasy movie/show has to have some sort of focus on sex/romance even if its barely mentioned in the source material.
Its become this idea that "if we dont include mature topics in our fantasy show then its a kids show!!!"
It's like people associate maturity with 'things that aren't for kids'.
Kids aren't supposed to feel sad, to experience the death of a loved one, or to have any knowledge about sex. So, if something is mature, it should feature death, sex, and people should be sad.
It's why people are always saying "Wow, I can't believe this character died and they made a joke about sex IN A KIDS SHOW! So edgy!"
What's wrong with kids shows anyway? 👀
thats kind of the thing with all movies and shows now; "oh, the movie cant be for adults if its not about a depressed drug-addict who has a lot of sex and dies at the end"
They've been doing that since Stuart Gordon's Re-animator.
They even misunderstand mature they equate violence and graphic sex as mature when it’s far from it. It’s the Snyder syndrome he’s a moron who appeals to teens and men who never grew up who again equate maturity to violence.
Finally, someone agrees with my Bilbo conception idea. Normally I’m just called “twisted” and “not allowed within four hundred feet of this facility”. Thanks MCT!
Glad to help!
Yes we need to know how Bilbo was created and the lore behind his creators. What made them do this and why.
You forgot, that the biggest problem with fantasy in general is, that it‘s unrealistic.
lol
that's not a problem
@what now hahaha!! Thanks for this wonderful pearl! Smiles are amazing. They hide so much pain, fear and sadness. But they reflect strength.
"You complain the plot doesn't make sense in a show about dragons and ice zombies??"
@@Seth_M-T This is such a weak argument. Just because a show isn't realistic, doesn't mean it shouldn't have verisimilitude (plausibility, following its internal rules and logic)
The problem with modern fantasy adaptations is that they are made to sell to people who DON'T LIKE FANTASY which lefts fans disappointed and TV viewers confused. Every new product is made to appeal to the GOT orphans who either loved the show or hated it (wot show case), and with that direction they miss what made the source material so special in the first place.
All Tolkien fans who've soon what they're doing with the show and support it might as well take a big fat steaming pile of shit on their Lotr books.
@@ForbiddenFollyFollower The show isn't out yet, right? It could turn out well.
@@legrandliseurtri7495 **JJJ wheeze**
You serious?!
It won't turn out well. I can sense the smell of excrement a mile and 25 feet away
Being almost exclusively familiar with your comedic stuff makes it really hard for my brain to take anythhing you say as not a joke.
2:40 I think the popularity of Arcane: League of Legends and Spider-Man: Into the Spider-verse has shown that animation is starting to be more embraced by western audiences. It's a great thing honestly, and it gives me hope that an animated fantasy adaptation would be successful.
The Legend of Vox Machina is a fantasy adaptation of a D&D campaign, and it's pretty high quality. If you wnated to check it out.
Yet I feel like for me at least Arcane success does mostly come from the story and characters. Yes, the animation is insanely well made and definitely adds some uniqueness to the series, but most of my problems with shows these days is lame or straight up dumb plot, boring characters etc.
There will be no amount of good looking animation that can fix these things.
Yeah, and its because people also getting bored with 3D animation. Seeing Arcane and Spider-verse is such a fresh air
Animation really is a great medium for fantasy adaptations. This is why Arcane and The Legend of Vox Machina works. Plus, you can feel the passion of the creators by looking at how they focus on the characters - aka the heart of any good story.
they look v pretty and fresh which pulls you in but it is the characters and for once well constructed plot that makes them memorable. I was firmly on the look down upon league of legends camp (as many people were for fantasy when got came along) but arcane got to me. it was so good.
Tbh I think a big problem is that there is simply so much content out there to watch, which means that fantasy adaptations are going to draw in a more niche audience, but at the same time the shows themselves are really trying spend big and use tropes to appeal to as broad an audience as possible. It just means that no one is ever happy with these big budget adaptations
(2022)
"The pool's too crowded, you're going to incrementally ruin it for everyone."
"Shush, *everyone's* swimming here, this is *the* time and *the* way to swim!"
(1998)
"Look at that pristine empty pool, you could be a great swimmer in that"
"Yuck, pools are gross!"
It's the Star Trek problem. Paramount/CBS has spent hundreds of millions of dollars trying to make Star Trek into a big blockbuster franchise like Star Wars, Harry Potter, and the MCU. But even their biggest success, the first Abrams Trek movie, was middling. They don't seem to understand that Star Trek simply may not have the mass market appeal of those blockbuster franchises. They keep trying but it simply hasn't worked. Have you ever heard anyone talk about Star Trek the way people talk about the MCU or Star Wars? Even those youtube channels that specialize in reviewing/breaking down sci-fi/fantasy/comic movies/shows/books like New Rockstars, Collider, Screen Junkies, Screen Crush, etc. never talk about Star Trek.
I think a lot of fantasy franchises have the same problem. Not every fantasy franchise can be as popular as Harry Potter. I don't think anything outside of the main LotR books can be as popular as the LotR movies. Yeah, people know the Hobbit and the LotR books, but who has read The Silmarillion? What do people know about the extended lore outside of the LotR books? What do general audiences know about Melkor or the Ainur or Eru? A lot of these fantasy franchises have too much lore that can't be easily broken down for general audiences. And the more they simplify things or change things for general audiences, the less it will appeal to the core fans. And if they're not able to grab that general audience then they've lost on both fronts, they've failed to make a series with mass appeal and they've failed to make a cult hit that's supported by the core fans.
i love star trek with all of my tiny litttle heart
Especially with the Star Trek reboots. Stuff that’s made with contempt/misunderstanding of the source material always fail to capture what made that source material so good in the first place
8:18 SPOT ON! I managed to cut down Wheel of Time from an 8-hour series to a 4-hour movie just by sticking to the main plot and cutting the remaining scenes shorter. It feels tighter all around this way and more focused.
I want more shows like Midnight mass. Not only was it brilliant in traditional sense, it also wasn't afraid to move on to new characters and give them the "main character treatment" after the supposed mc had done their job for the plot.
Midnight Mass, Watchman, and Sharp Objects are some of my favorite series.
Underrated show! Me and my girlfriend were hooked from beginning to end.
I loved Haunting of Hill House, probably my favorite show. But I thought midnight mass had too many social justice commentary moments that broke my immersion (unpopular opinion),
@@roardinoson7 I don't think necessarily social justice just a lot but A LOT of philosophical bs monologues
@@roardinoson7 Agreed, it was ridiculous. My favorite was when that one girl told the muslim sheriff the priest was a literal vampire who's gonna kill/turn them all and that she knows it for a fact, and then the sheriff goes into a 10 minute monologue about how people were mean to him after 9/11.....
Honestly I totally checked out of Bezo's lord of the rings after reading about the showrunners calling it "The novel Tolkien never wrote"
That quote does not mean what everyone think it means. It's totally out of context. Hate it if you want, but at least be decent and do it for honest reasons.
@@JJMB27 LMAO I'm aware of it's context and I still find it stupid get off your high horse and stop putting words in my mouth I'm not hating anything I am simply uninterested
The red flag for me in the Wheel of Time was "improving the source material" 🚩🚩🚩🚩
@@uri4263 ohhh, as a Cowboy Bebop anime fan, that 'improve the original' quote sounds chillingly familiar...
@@uri4263 you don't think is a better writer than Robert Jordan? I'm shocked. /s
One thing I want to add about budget: The initial Seasons of GoT actually did not have the highest budget.
We don't see huge battles and the like, yet it does not make the beginning of the show any worse, because it focuses on different things that make it what it is. (Plotting, Politics, Assassination etc.)
I feel like if you are creative enough you can tell an interesting and captivating story without throwing hundreds of millions of dollars at it.
I remember the memes.
"Sir, we had an epic battle off-screen where hundreds of soldiers died. It was epic."
@@ashblossomandjoyoussprung.9917 This made me remeber that one scene in the Imaginationland trilogy of South Park, haha. Once again, they were years ahead of their time.
Twin Peaks: The Return and Merlin both getting the respect they deserve here 💚
BOTH EQUAL CLASSICS
awww man Twin Peaks: The return is awesome!
Got a light?
Except the last episode of Merlin
Merlin is so beautiful-the lighting shot on location in a real castle… oh and the people also pretty.
You know what was the best fantasy show in recent years that Dark Crystal prequel maybe we need more puppet fantasy
revenge of the puppet fantasy genre
I am legit writing a novel where I'm imagining puppets as all the creatures because Dark Crystal was SO good.
It’s a shame Netflix canceled that show. It had so much potential.
It absolutely kills me that it was so unpopular. Pretty much no one watched the coolest thing Netflix has ever done.
That was the only fantasy show that was able to keep me interested for all of its run time, I am more interested in the source materials now, I literally got bored of got after one season and some fantasy shows based on books I got bored at the half of the first episode. I am more interested in looking up about the source material than in the actual show
Never thought I'd hear "some degree of care" and "Eragon [movie]" in the same sentence.
Daniel Greene? Never heard of him didn't he write Assassin's creed?
No, he’s in the band CREED. Big difference.
He directed the movie CREED starring baseball player Michael Jordan
@@averyhinks1799 baseball??? I thought he played football
On the note of foregoing the 6 act tv structure, I swear studios have been buying feature scripts and cramming them into 50 min episodes. The pace of modern procedurals is sickeningly quick. The show FBI in particular feels like someone left an outline to a real script on their desk and no one noticed. There was not a single scene that lasted more than a minute.
His dark materials feels like a really good fantasy adaptation. I felt like every part of it was great until the last episode of two of season two - which I’m almost certain was due to COVID and them not being able to film originally planned scenes. But besides that, none of the fantasy shows I’ve watched recently have even come close to the same grand feelings I get from books or some of the great movies like lotr. They’re all missing some piece, whether be storytelling, budget, or smth else.
I agree! His Dark Materials has been a pretty good adaptation! I've thoroughly enjoyed so far! Merlin was also a pretty good show too as far as fantasy shows go!
When I think about modern day fantasy shows, I think about the groups of people that watch new episodes in bars together and cheer/boo at each scene. I feel like that's becoming more and more the target audience.
I wouldn't be so exhausted with the countless adaptations of pretty much every property if they weren't all trying to appeal to everyone. Not everything is liked by everyone and that's ok. We all have our own preferences for what we look for in stories. I just can't stand how studios seemingly force shitty ideas that was popular in other properties into new ones just because that worked in the past (completely disregarding the differences that made those ideas work.) idk if this made sense its 2am here and im tired as fuck lol
Yeah this is my take too. They take what worked for something else and just put it in their work without really knowing why it worked out for the other successful franchise to begin with. I feel Star Wars fits this. Like the 7th movie felt so much like the 4th movie and while it wasn't a bad movie in my opinion, it wasn't entirely good and it felt way too familiar to the point where even my dad who isn't too into the movies like I am pointed out how he didn't like it because it felt like watching ep 4. From what I remember even the latest Conan movie that came out years ago did this same thing where it tried to look all artsy and cool but it just looks boring. Compare it to the 80s Conan movies and I feel the 80s movies capture the world so much better. When I read the first Conan story from Robert E Howard, I ended up imagining the world with the 80s movie version in mind since it felt more like that to me.
>exhausted with countless adaptations
>jojo pfp
Trying to appeal to everyone has ironically made things so similar that nothing stands out. Trying to talk up the small differences as "so daring!" just comes off as forced and non-genuine. It becomes a continuous stream where nothing's really good, and sometimes trying to blindly cram in "popular" ideas just makes it so much worse. Things that don't have the appeal of the original, but don't fit the purpose they're supposed to either because of how far it has to stretch to try and accommodate the goals for the role.
Oh my goodness, yes, Galavant! The comedy in this show is on point, and the songs are great. I'm glad some people out there know of it since it wasn't really that popular, unfortunately.
I'm telling you it's comedy gold
legit one of the best fantasy/medievalist shows ive seen in a while
I'm surprised it got renewed for a second season after it ended season 1 with not one but two cliffhanger duels between major characters that never get resolved and then the main character and main antagonist literally get shipped off on a boat together to leave the plot, unironically great show
love that show, watched it a few times, might do it again this week
Galavant and The Good Place are two of the most delightful fantasy comedies out there, and deserve to be more remembered.
i still do a yearly rewatch of merlin. i have yet to replicate the intense emotions i felt watching the final episode all of those years ago.
I rewatched LOTR recently, and OH BOY is there some masterful pacing in those movies. Such a insane level of writing and editing techniques to keep the energy dynamic and the audience always engaged-Talk about a completely lost art form when it comes to these streaming series. Absolutely rotten pacing-NONEXISTENT actually.
Well at least someone enjoyed THOR THE DARKWORLD. I really enjoy THOR THE DARK WORLD. I love it so much I watch it on two different screens at the same time. That way I can watch THOR THE DARK WORLD while I'm watching THOR THE DARK WORLD.
Finally a long video that i can understand if it is satire or not.
My man memes for weeks and then hit us with some next level intelectual masterpiece.
I'm writing this 12 seconds in the video cause I already know it is that good. Keep the great content dude, sending love from Brazil.
I'm so happy I discovered this channel, I'd lost my love for reading for almost 3 years (ever since I came back to my country after studying abroad for a while) and this channel really rekindled my love for not only fantasy and sci fi, but also guess who's reading again!!! Thank you!
Also, great video! I miss Merlin so much and I knew I wasn't the only one who felt this way about fantasy adaptations these days!
That's so nice to hear! Happy reading!
Well at least Dune is getting treated spectacularly
I feel like a lot of current adaptations don't have a very deep understanding of the source material. Most of the same events are there, the characters have the same names, but they never have the same impact as the originals. An episode spends too much time on something that wasn't very important in the book, a character suddenly says something very OOC... several small changes stack together to create very different themes. The end result is a series that's ok, but it's missing the heart of what made the original so good.
Bonus minor complaint:
All these new adaptations have a weird way of writing and casting diversity. It's not the fact that there are non whites in my fantasy story that bothers me, but you know what I mean. It feels like characters of different ethnicities are just scattered around without much rhyme or reason. As if some people were just painted with a brown marker after the fact.
I mean, non-white people were just kind of around? Historically people actually travelled a fair bit, sometimes just because they felt like it. It's a Tiffany Problem.
Personally, I think the biggest problem with fantasy right now is this obsession with making it "gritty" and "realistic". Like, HELLO, it's FANTASY!! I want to get swept away to distant lands on fantastic adventures that end happily. I want the crazy spells and logic defying creatures! I want people who are trying to do the right thing rise above the trials and tribulations and succeed! Such concepts really are some of the best parts of the genre that so many writers/producers refuse to indulge in.
I love your short dumb vids but I also really love your book reviews and chatty vids. Please don’t stop giving us all of the above. Tysm
Love your longer formatted videos!
I really enjoy these longer form videos. Keep up the great work
Your thought-pieces are always great.
I appreciate these down to earth videos. I subscribed for the sketches, but love the reviews and down to earth conversations as well.
Love the discussion
You come across as a very distinguished gentleman
hell yeah. distinguished
The synth background music always gets me hyped in your videos
Excellent video. I enjoyed this type of video. Also your intro and outro music does so much to tie your videos together and mesh with your style 👍 as a viewer it's refreshing
Really great video and thanks for reading my comment. You really do a fantastic job with these longer videos and I love watching them
that ad transition was too smooth. I didn't realize I was watching an ad until I found myself binge cooking 3 month's worth of green chef meals then wondered how I got there.
At this point I don't get excited for "adaptations" anymore. There have been just too many failures and 9 out of 10 of them aren't making these "for the fans" it's all for money. I get it people have to get paid and work but it's just becoming more and more soulless. At this point they could have their own genre in media. Very VERY seldom do you get a Game of Thrones (and that was CLEARLY because the author was VERY involved up until when he wasn't and the writers went off on their own to disastrous results) or a Dune or LotR. Also now it doesn't matter what book or comic or cartoons 'community' I check out all you see in the sub reddits and on UA-cam videos is 'this NEEDS TO BE ADAPTED'. I'm being naive even by saying the following but isn't the wonderful source material you're such a fan of, good enough? You have Netflix Amazon and Hulu buying up movie and show rights to basically ANY semi popular IP now. I've just gotten into a series that's a Sci fi take on Necromancer vampires with a livecraftian vibe to it called the Necroverse and it has a very loyal cult following but in NO WAY is main stream yet the rights for that have been bought. I also realize most of these will never get made these companies are buying these and most of the time sitting on them but now more and more are being made. It's just so hollow and lifeless to me at this point. Call me jaded or naive if you want but I'm just so fu ck ing over it. I just started the WoT series because of your video and I've decided I'm not watching the show until I'm at LEAST past book 3 but also I just genuinely have no desire to see it. I think it's getting out of control and will just make it harder for people who actually are invested in these properties and want to make something great to do do because ALL OF THE RIGHTS WILL BE SAT ON BY BIG COMPANIES that most of the time aren't planning on doing anything with them. I'm also not saying it's bad for authors and creators to sell movie or show rights it's not them I'm upset with its the soulless companies I just can't stand anymore. Fuck yeah make money off the thing you painstakingly created yourself. Sorry for that tangent. Love your content especially the long form stuff man
So true about any semi popular ip being bought right now. For example, the rights for Wings Of Fire by Tui Sutherland have been bought a couple months ago, and it's quite likely you've never heard of it at all.
The fandom is cautiously optimistic at the moment.
In my (subjective) experience, an adaptation works really well when the original creator is involved (eg. Good Omens, Umbrella Academy) and hardly ever works well the rest of the time. They end up "fine" or "bad". Either of those options alienate the fans while trying to pull in "everyday" viewers.
They just be buying the rights to huge series with to complicated lore and just ignore it all because they don't want to make something that the fans will enjoy
nice I think this is a really accessible video to build more of an audience for your media reviews !
One of my dreams ,or nightmares now that I think about it, would be to adapt Blood Meridian into either a short series or perhaps a video game. The video game aspect is really appealing to me because our main character can not read, and getting across all of the information without being able to read anything would be very interesting. Just imagine if you had to play Dark Souls, but you didn't even understand any of the item descriptions you accumulate and how your very understanding would be influenced. I'm not sure how people write games anyway, but it's always been an idea I've had.
So I finally watched that short trailer for the Amazon LoTR and honestly the effects look cool but like... it feels like it missed something. I pretty much said before in the community post how most of these fantasy shows or movies try to copy the look of another successful movie or show like 300 or GoT but none of them understand why it worked for them and just assume if they do the same thing people will like it. The effects play a small part of the overall story of a movie or show. It is meant to help sell the overall story which is mainly told with good acting, actions (such as a fight scene or maybe just characters having a drink), the scenery and having say a castle that fits the world look well, and a proper script and story to tell. Watching that trailer, I still have no idea what this is even suppose to be about, like I think the book it is based on had various short stories about the world before the fellowship started but like what stories will they tell? I just saw visuals. Literally the same shit with Witcher's season 2 trailer that I believe in E3 they had to loop back twice or three times and slowed down to even get anything out of it.
I think it's this thing like with the zombie genre. You have the best games out first that really put in effort into the genre like say Left 4 Dead as a video game or the Romero zombie movies. Then you end up with people liking it a lot and suddenly these production companies or game companies want to capitalize on the trend but don't really know why they are so popular so they end up just putting out stuff that is either fine which is of course okay like you said or just plain bad or misses what makes the genre great for people to begin with. Now this is happening with fantasy. Thankfully though I feel like there are some people who get the genre right so it maybe balances out. Still, I rather they not use a already good franchise and not put much care into it.
I feel like companies focus too much on icons. They think, "just slap this icon on here and people will love it". They have no understanding of why people liked that icon, as if there's nothing more to it than certain icon's appearances magically being appealing. And when people reject the product because the story is not good or isn't what they expected to be represented by that icon, the company just shrugs and goes "guess nobody likes xyz anymore" and shelves it.
People are drawn to the experience of stories. While the stories don't necessarily have to be original, they should have something different and notable about them, something that it does well enough that when people see the face of it, they remember and can share that experience.
Similarly it can be jarring to go in expecting one thing and having something that strays way too far from that. It feels deceptive, like a bait-and-switch. Rather than expanding it with new ideas to freshen things up, it's just taking the appearance of something old and sticking it on something completely different. In the short term, it might trick some people, but in the long run they'll be burning through the few iconic settings, characters, etc that are meaningful enough to the audience to even want to see it over someone else's production and they don't seem to be keen to create new ones any time soon. (or they create "new" stuff and then it flops, because it's not promoted nearly as well or the execution is poor and then once again they go "welp we tried, it was too risky")
Really love these discussion videos!
awesome video bro. you picked up on shows I really love and re-watch - Galavant and Twin Peaks: The Return
I'll tell you one thing.
In a couple generations' time there's going to be a HUGE backlash against anything fantasy or superhero related. Partially from oversaturation, partially because that's old people stuff and they want to forge their own culture that you wouldn't understand, DAD.
100% It's definitely coming.
I think it'll be sooner tbh.
i enjoy these type of vids a lot, its fun and engaging
The flowers are such a classy touch)
Aww! Thanks for reading my take. Yes, these shows are being treated like 9 hour movies, and movies which suffer from, as you said, added filler.
Wow, This seems like an interesting and thought provoking video discussing something interesting that I have some vague idea about.
Thankyou MCT for introducing me to this thought/idea/way of thinking about the problems with fantasy adaptions in the modern streaming landscape.
This is my attempt number 23 of requesting for this comment to be pinned in order to fulfill my New year's resolution for 2022.
I am sorry for the late comment, I was busy.
Thankyou for consideration 👍🏻
thank you ishan for your considerate comment. also no.
@@ManCarryingThing Understandable, have a nice day brother.
As a Wheel of Time fan, I binged Vikings Valhalla last night and almost wept about how mediocre Rafe's project was. The scale, the writing, the cohesive story telling, the "lived in" costumes and sets.
8:18 you and the commenter talk about length in terms of series vs movies, but i think the same also applies for individual episode length.
so many shows drag on with their 40min+ episode lengths. it makes it really hard for me to finish a series. in the meantime, i can easily stay focused watching 20-30min episodes, even when i binge them. i think it’s bc it forces a show to have better pacing, and cut out the padding. make sure that everything that’s in there, is there bc it’s important or serves some purpose
Galavant was amazing and I was so disappointed when it got canceled for season 2. I will theoretically fight anyone who tells me otherwise. It accomplishes exactly what it is trying to be.
*In my opinion
Absolutely, i originally watched it becuase Timothy Omundson from Psych was in it, but stayed for everything else as well. Timothy Omundsonnwas still one of my favorite parts though.
@@katiewright3309 I completely agree! My brother and I watched it a long time ago, not knowing he was in it, but we recognized him from Psych and loved him in the role. We stayed for him as well as everything else!
can’t tell you how thankful I am for you showing some _Galavant_ appreciation in 2022 🙌
I always love your opinion pieces
I feel like GOT is doing to fantasy what the Matrix did to action movies in the 2000s. It feels like a bunch of bad carbon copies of trying to recreate what was extremly well liked and successful but end up cheapening the experience.
I love fantasy. I hated GOT.
@@politereminder6284 Agreed. I hope we'll never see something like it ever again. To me it was a rape/murder orgie (only book I stopped reading halfway through). That said, if you enjoyed it, awesome! It did open the eyes of producers to fantasy. It's just a pity that now everybody thinks that fantasy = GoT, while it really isn't.
@@angelavm84 OMG! Totally!
I'll repost here what I've said elsewhere:
When Game of thrones came, I mourned the death of the genre😔. I didn't like it at all. It was a porn show...and shock factor for the heck of shock factor plus dragons and zombies thrown in for some random reason 🤷♀️. I wasn't impressed
@@politereminder6284I will say that game of thrones wouldn't need that many changes to be written without any magic elements at all. However...This serie is so good. Such a shame it will never be finished.
@@legrandliseurtri7495 I guess if you're into that.🤷♀️
To me it was gratuitous and pointless. I wish he had chosen to write in a different genre rather than fantasy. It has ruined fantasy for a generation, because now that's what people associate with the fantasy genre.
Yeah, I would agree with your and Daniel's points at the beginning. It isn't easy to be neutral on a fantasy adaptation, TV or film, and I don't think it comes down to individual people. I would guess it has more to do with how social media, fandom, and overall fan engagement are affecting what's greenlit and made from a business standpoint. Whether an adaptation is loved and has tons of hype, or is hated and becomes popular for hate-watching, I'm sure many executives simply view both as engagement. Not fantasy: but the many videos made about Tall Girl and He's All That are a good example.
I guess as long as they view it as content to fill up a quota instead of art to make people think, they won't care the reaction as long as there is a reaction.
I have claimed that Escape is one of the main functions of fairy-stories, and since I do not disapprove of them, it is plain that I do not accept the tone of scorn or pity with which “Escape” is now so often used: a tone for which the uses of the word outside literary criticism give no warrant at all. In what the misusers are fond of calling Real Life, Escape is evidently as a rule very practical, and may even be heroic. In real life it is difficult to blame it, unless it fails; in criticism it would seem to be the worse the better it succeeds. Evidently we are faced by a misuse of words, and also by a confusion of thought. Why should a man be scorned if, finding himself in prison, he tries to get out and go home? Or if, when he cannot do so, he thinks and talks about other topics than jailers and prison-walls? The world outside has not become less real because the prisoner cannot see it. In using escape in this way the critics have chosen the wrong word, and, what is more, they are confusing, not always by sincere error, the Escape of the Prisoner with the Flight of the Deserter.
Just so a Party-spokesman might have labelled departure from the misery of the Führer’s or any other Reich and even criticism of it as treachery. In the same way these critics, to make confusion worse, and so to bring into contempt their opponents, stick their label of scorn not only on to Desertion, but on to real Escape, and what are often its companions, Disgust, Anger, Condemnation, and Revolt. Not only do they confound the escape of the prisoner with the flight of the deserter; but they would seem to prefer the acquiescence of the “quisling” to the resistance of the patriot. To such thinking you have only to say “the land you loved is doomed” to excuse any treachery, indeed to glorify it. [Escape in: On Fairy-Stories, J.R.R. Tolkien.]
Did not expect gallivant love on this channel! Love it boo
Bro, do you want to hang out sometime?
Possibly around the endless shrimp season at Red Lobster? I could totally just have a chill convo with you about pretty much anything.
i am permanently banned from red lobster but anywhere else is fine
@@ManCarryingThing lmao! Bro, why?
I'm a little bit tired of the narrative that TWOT show was bad because they didn't get 2 more episodes, i think that is BS taking in account all the invented scenes that were terrible and didn't add anything to the plot or made the story better if you are not a radical feminist. I challenge anyone that differs from my opinion to expose their reasonnings, because it is being hard for me to trust tv and movie adaptations lately with all these bad adaptations and continuations of beloved sagas being treated like cheap meat by amateur directors/producers.
1- They omitted the prologue, which was one of the things i liked the most when i started reading the books because it reminded me about the intro of the Followship of the Ring movie. And what do they add instead? Moraine giving a monologue explaining a lie while the red ajah kill 2 men... beyond pathetic.
2- They age up all the characters and relationships just to give more GoT vibes (sex, mature relationships and violence) in a story that is a wink on the fellowship of the ring (admitted by the same R.Jordan).
3- They push Nyaneve and Egwene characters to the point of making them complete Mary Sues, adding lots of new scenes to "show" their power and making the boys completely gutless so they don't overshadow the girls. This causes terrible character development for Rand, Matt and Perrin who are but a shadow of who they are in the books, while also make the girls look completely bland good of all characters that are better than anyone and have no flaws.
4- They change the basics of TWOT magic and powers, Egwene a possible Dragon reborn? seriously wtf. Not explaining the difference between saidin and saidar? have they even read the books? Egwene without any training whatsoever resurrecting Nyaneve after being burnt by the one power...
5- Terrible cinematography and camera shots (enemies appearing out of thin air constantly), costumes and sets that seemed from a serie B production.
6- Chapter 8 as a whole is but an insult to anyone who loves TWOT or the fantasy genre. The scenes of the battle against the trollocs seem to be written by amateurs who didn't write a battle in their lives.
All these things don't get solved with 2 more episodes or giving them more time, this gets solved by hiring good directors/producers who actually know what they are doing and who actually care about the quality of the show they are making, not amateur ones with no experience whatsoever who only care about twisting a best seller story just to fit in their politics and cheap fanfic ideas.
The only thing i can pray for is that the adaptation from some of Sanderson's books waits some time because i will get really mad if they disgrace his work like they've done with TWOT or The Witcher to the point that they are almost unwatchable.
Regarding the 2 entry in the list, that's exactly what they are not understanding. Got didn't became famous because the carachters were preforming the Devil's tango! It got famous because it was fucking good! Seriously those writers seem like that weird uncle who tries to be cool and ends up as a cringey meat blob
This was great, Man Carrying Thing Guy! You the man!
I can't really tell why, but I love your energy. Keep it up
That take on everything turning into series (paraphrased) is so true. As seemingly more accessible they are, there are times when the storytelling just suffers from the series format when it could've flowed better as a movie, and vice versa.
Some series feel like they're wasting time in order to line up the big plot points. Instead of using the time to create a bigger story, they stretch out a regular length story and then the choppiness of being episodic outweighs anything it gains by being that way. The story becomes focused on establishing the next cliffhanger instead of telling a properly flowing story.
While your sketches are good, I really enjoy the “discussion” types of videos. Keep it up, thing carrying man,
The hell is this 10+ minutes long format of informative content?!?! Bring me back the zoom calls!!!
Man I just want wheel of time to be adapted into something that still captures the awesome feel of the later books.
I'm going into this without any knowledge about how serious of a video this will be. I'm pumped either way.
3:02 Omg guys that's me! 🤣🤣🤣 lotta good points, thanks so much for the good stuff :)
You should try Sweet Tooth. Honestly, that has been one of the sweetest, most interesting fantasy/sci fi shows I've seen in a while.
I don't remember the original Star Wars movies, Indian Jones movies, Harry Potter movies, or Lord of the Rings movies being "divisive". Everyone loved them for the most part. So much effort went into making them great that very few people could hate them. Then things got rushed and sloppy when the wheel started turning and they never took a chance to breathe.
This channel is my favourite because it has everything
Besides GOT (until season 6~7, i want to forget season 8 ever existed), my favorite fantasy tv series is, without a doubt, Penny Dreadful. It's an amazing tv series with great actors and I love the twists and turns with mythical creatures.
Another solid thing about Penny Dreadful is that the story feels just right (3 seasons total of 27 episodes), it doesn't overextend itself to have more seasons than it should just to bank in that money with no respect to the story and characters. Also the eery atmosphere of the show is terrific.
That Thor Dark World comment was the best
Twin Peaks: A Limited Event series is also the opposite of the sequel/prequel riding on nods to the original work. The loveable main character spends almost the entire show in a demential stupor, stumbling through a Forrest Gump/Being There esque story about insurance fraud that's almost completely disconnected from the main story
I’ve been watching The Ray Bradbury Theater and thinking of you🖤 how would you feel about a Something Wicked This Way Comes remake?
i would love it! I think it's due for a remake (imagine del toro doing it?)
@@ManCarryingThing Dude! I didn’t even think of him!🤭 I was thinking Ari Aster or Robert Eggers, but adaptations don’t really seem like their kind of thing😅
Does Jake's new setup remind you of Daniel's setup? I'm I the only one who noticed? If it is, was it inspired by the former setup?
i had an epiphany. i never hought i could just sit at my kitchen counter and record, but my bookshelf is RIGHT BEHIND me from that angle. took me this long to realize
Normally, you would expect that since it is being released on ott, it will have more flexibility in deciding the runtime of each episode and no. Of episodes perfect to tell the story. But it is opposite here. Their main focus should be to tell the best story and not how to fit this story in this limited time in earliest date bt sacrificing the quality. Wot needed more than 8 episodes. Episode 1 needed more time. But here we r.
I do understand what you mean about the notion that the studios in charge of a lot of the big budget fantasy IPs look down on the genre.
I think that they sort of learned the wrong lesson from Game of Thrones. It showed indeed that fantasy can be presented in a way that still appeals to a lot of "non-fantasy fans". I actually think this is fine, studios have to make money at the end of the day. But a lot of modern adaptions present it to audiences as though "oh, this isn't your *nerd* crap, this is for cool people", as opposed to celebrating all the cool stuff that fantasy can bring while also giving casual audiences an anchoring point that allows them to get invested in character drama.
Merlin is a great example of this. A show which delved into weird and wonderful fantasy concepts (remember the one when Arthur's dad fell in love with a stinky ogre putting a hex on him?) but a lot of "non-fantasy fans" still got into it because of the relationship between Merlin and Arthur which was at the heart of the show. Similarly, when Doctor Who came back onto our screens in 2005 it was actually marketed as a drama. Yes, it also had farting aliens, gas mask zombies and genocidal pepper pot monsters, but to grab the casual viewer they wanted us invested in The Doctor and Rose.
Get a casual audience invested in your central characters and their relationships and you'd be surprised at what kinds of fantastical concepts you can throw at them and them not be put off by perceived "nerdiness".
Also, the 'nerds' from the 80s/90s are the ppl with power and money now;-) Loads of ppl are gamers now. Being a nerd isn't a 'bad' thing anymore.
@@angelavm84 Nerd will always be derogatory (just sound the word out in your head) it now simply means boring and isolated.
@@ForbiddenFollyFollower I don't think you understand what we're talking about or still have that 80s mindset (just think of the movie Nerds). What you're saying is subjective. Hence using ' ' . Perhaps it means boring and isolated to you. It means smart/intelligent and able to generate a lot of wealth through those traits, to others. Examples are Bill Gates, Elon Musk and basically any poker player. Think of Jake and Daniel Greene (I'd say they'd be proud to call themselves nerds?) or the channel Nerdy Nightly. All example of proud ' nerds' who are anything but sad adults who live in the basement of their parents.
Merlin was a joke of a show. My family and I watched it for a while because we were surprised over and over by the new goofy shit the writers would come up with every episode, but at some point, even that wasn't enought and we stopped watching. I'm not sure why you're citing it as a positive example.
Shatter Me series is super unpredictable and pulls one in, and, personally, i believe is could translate well to live action!
Thank you for using my Twitter reply. I look forward to your future correspondence on the matter my royalties for this video
Thank you and God bless x
"Oh F yeah!" * *Snorts off table* * "The Video Essayist section of the evolution of this channel. That's the good shit!"
As an individual, it helps to know what you enjoy in stories. Are your favorite parts the characters, the plot? Maybe you prefer certain mediums for whatever reason? I definitely enjoy a movie adaptation if it hits all of my personal points of taste. But I think books will always remain superior in this genre because that's where the source material is.
Then you have instances where the adaptation improves upon the source material in some way. I enjoyed movie Aragorn way more than book Aragorn, because my favorite parts of stories are the characters and movie Aragorn had more depth as a character.
Is it possible to improve upon every part of a source material? I guess, but it seems incredibly unlikely to be executed in reality. Tldr: read books and enjoy adaptations for what they are (and be pleasantly surprised when they do something unique and well executed!)
I'm still upset they never did a sequel to the D&D movie with Jeremy Irons.
i don’t know if this is a bit but if not then have I got good news for you friend
Jeremy Irons is coming back for a follow up to his most critically acclaimed performance???
@@aedof No, but I assume you have seen the trailer by now.
We need an adaptation of Harvard Lampoon's Bored of the Rings instead, followed by Doon.
You made the Gotti reference and I instantly wanted you to guest star on the Sardonicast
One of the thing that never ceases to amaze me is how the show turned all of the characters into the weak and dumb shadows of their selves. Take Nynaeve. In the book, when Eamond's Field people discovered that Rand and his firends left, she decided to return them, but she did not started the chase before she found a substitute Wisdom. Then, she intercepted main characters in the Baerlon, as there was logical place for them to be. In the TV show, she simply run away to pursuit Rand and others (despite that there was no secret that they left), didn't care about ravaged village, and somehow intercepted the Moiraine at Shadar Logoth (on her feet, while group was mounted). Oh yes, she truly care for her people.
Moiriane. What can I say. In the books, she is helping to defeat the Trollocs that attacked the Eamond's Field and to heal the wounded. She also always trying to make up for collateral damage, like paying to the ferryman for destroyed ferry. She scares the Children of Light off. When group is divided after Shadar Logoth, she is immediately follows then in an attempt to reunite group.
In the TV show, howewer, she is the one who inflicts collateral damage without making up for it, she is batshit scared by Children of Light and not vice-versa, and she doesn't care that group is divided. For the Creator's sake, she had no clue who can be the Dragon Reborn and change her opinion no less than three times. She is not a person, who devoted her whole life to an important mission, she just an overaged adventurer who took the mission to win something in the White Tower.
Rand. Say what you want, but from the first book it's evident that he is smart, resourseful and quick to learn. He can hold his own in the brawl and not useless in the battle, as he is a proficent archer. Here... he is a brooding jerk, who spent much of the time trying to stalk Egwene. in the books when Rand and Mat are cornered in the inn by the shady Innkeeper and Darkfriends, he is shown to be able to deduce that they are going to be robbed, secure their posessions and to plan the escape. In the TV show, however, Rand is easily lured into the trap and disarmed by the female innkeeper, making him inept and unassuming, completely opposite of being observant and resourseful. Not to mention that he is absolutely terrified of her.
Surely, anyone have a right to dislike WoT, but I honestly don't know what to like about that TV show. And don't get me started about Tar Valon that turned out to be not a Manhattan-sized metropolis full of ahead-of-time parametric architecture, but some slums of medieval Indian towns.
Random question but did you ever finish the dark tower? I saw your book 5 review was 9 months ago.
Animated fantasy gets a slightly different audience, but I don't know if that audience is smaller. Arcane did pretty well, Demon Slayer was the highest grossing film of 2020 etc.
I find it kinda interesting that Game of Thrones is treated as a landmark fantasy show. Except for a few rare instances surrounding the white walkers most of the fantastical elements like giants, dragons, etc. are essentially speculative zoology fitted into the world in quite a sci-fi way. The prophecies are a mixed bag and a lot of them lead nowhere or lead people to their demise. Vast majority of the substance is built around medieval politics.
i just want galavant season 3. who do i have to kill to get galavant season 3.
New stuff yay!!
The fact that they scheduled it for September 2nd when Baggins Birthday September 22nd is RIGHT THERE is irrationally frustrating to me