honestly, I welcomed the lower stakes in Shallan's WoK chapters. They felt like a break from the utter fucking misery that Kaladin (and Dalinar to a lesser extent) are going through for most of that book. I also found her quite funny, but I'm not sure how much of that was Brandon and how much of that was Kate Reading.
I like having the lower stakes breaks too. It heightens the utter peril and misery we witness with Kaladin’s chapters and treachery and intrigue of Dalinar’s. And there’s still stakes to Shallan’s narrative, I always assumed that Shallan would be punished mercilessly if she was caught.
I 100% agree with this. Without Shallan breaks, Kaladin's story would have started to get almost painful. As much as I would sometimes be frustrated that a Shallan POV would come right after a tense Kal cliffhanger, I am now thankful for them. I like Shallan and she prevented Kaladin burnout
I liked her more than Kaladin. I’d get pissed when we had to leave her to go listen to Kaladin’s ( dnd character esk) sad boy backstory. I love Kaladin, he is my boy, and cried for him multiple times but he was so depressing. I’d read an entire book just about Shallan and Jasnah’s mentor scholarship time. It was my favorite part 👉👈 I liked the world building we got and Jasnah was super cool 😎 I mean it tho I could have spent 1,000 pages of Shallan learning scholarship
I've always liked Shallan, and after first hearing so many people express their distaste, I was a bit confused. I understand that especially in WOK she tries so hard with her humor but **Minor spoilers for WOR just in case** after we get her backstory in WOR, I think that her desperate humor is a way to bury her past. It's very common for people to hide their trauma with humor and I think Shallan eventually goes to that as her last resort of a 'lie'. So to me, the 'cringe' is a big part of her character development and is something she uses as a defense mechanism.
I love Shallan's personality and attitude, but I wish there were more consequences to her humor. Like it's kind of a break of immersion that people don't get more pissed at her for her often insulting remarks. Haven't quite finished WOR yet but so far the only character we've seen that actually takes the expected level of offense at her shenanigans is Kaladin. Especially since Shallan constantly talks about how it's gonna get her in trouble in WOK and then it never gets her into trouble.
Spoilers book 1: Lol the romance bit is so accurate. I was like "aww that's so cute, I ship it! Jam is cutesy and I want more of it" Then it's like "oh and by the way the jam thing was a murder weapon" I was shook
I think Shallan suffers from what I'm gonna call Daenerys syndrome lol. She was such a divisive character in the Game of Thrones books/show because her story was happening so far away from the rest of the main cast (only connecting more directly way down the line). Another great video man, loving your work.
Great point, and thanks so much! Being far away from the main action must have something to do with it. Really, not till the second to last chapter do we get any insight into how they connect.
That's pretty astute. It's also that shallan being an idiot made everyone else seem like a bigger moron around her just like that for a moment when she got washed up shore. After all that, if you get over it and visualize that it's more than possible and see what she did ahead it's ok. Plus she is all about being disingenuous and has magic powers of deceptions and personal truths and lies
Exactly. Kaladin and Dalinar are giving us opposite perspectives of the Shattered Plains, and it's really interesting how those two plotlines contrast with each other. Meanwhile, Shallan's in Kharbranth, Jasnah's outshining her own plotline, and it isn't until the end of the book that they finally set off towards where the rest of the plot is.
But like, didn't ppl love Daenerys?? I remember waiting for her chapter to come in the books. So it might not be just because of that but because she was far away from the story AND a bit boring.
I think, in order for a character to be so *widely* disliked, there has to be a failure on multiple levels. Every single thing mentioned in the video and the comments are, by themselves, not failures. Even what I'm about to describe is, by itself, workable. But when you stack each tiny problem together, they cascade over themselves to create a character who is simply disliked with no clear reason why. The thing that I think is slightly missing here is mention of the stakes whiplash within Shallan's own narrative. The video and many of the comments focus on how Shallan's plot is about "my family will be slightly less rich." What I got very clearly from the text was "If I don't get this soulcaster my family is going to be murdered by our political enemies." But we never see or feel those stakes until much, much, much later. Her initial arc in WoK is not about the soulcaster stealing plot, it's a teenage growing up plot, it's a girl coming to face with a kind of reality she's never had to deal with before plot, it's a girl emerging from trauma and finding enough of stability and strength to face where she came from plot. It's a going away to college plot, basically. And the soulcaster stealing plot is just the setup to that... Which feels *really* strange, considering the stakes of it are so high! That whiplash gives an impression of a girl who is very "out of sight out of mind". Without the looming threat of her family staring her down, she feels the pressure of the existing circumstances. Totally normal for a teenage girl! Having been in slightly less high stakes situations where no one's future was on the line but mine, that's what I did. Bad freshman year decisions and all that. But... It's really hard to empathize with someone like that in the moment without thinking really hard about it. Especially in an epic fantasy book where the emotional journeys tend to get overlooked in favor of EPIC PLOT. (Even tho Sando like, outlined emotional journeys in BRIGHT NEON LIGHTS and stood on a chair going EMOTIONAL JOURNEY IS IMPORTANT TO THE CORE OF THE STORY.) A lot of my personal reactions to Shallan are ultimately chalked up to, it was a very realistic depiction of a teenage girl awkwardly trying to fit herself into multiple boxes of other people's visions for her "self" before finally stepping into what she wanted to be for her own reasons. Been there, done that, hated it, it was very cringe and my fiancé was totally right in telling me she acted like me when I was younger. She went from being a character I hated to a character I fell in love with right around when she reaches the warcamp. [Spoilers] Not because this is where she convenes with the other characters, but because this is the very first instance we see of her doing truly independent problem-solving: faced with hostile deserter soldiers trying to steal her stuff and run away, does she fight them like Jasnah or run away with the slaver she bullied into escorting her? No, neither, she empathizes with them, reassures them, and offers them a second chance. When trying to get into the war camp, does she stick with the lie fabricated for her by the woman she met on the road? Nope, she goes in with the truth: I'm Jasnah's ward, Jasnah is dead now, and I'm engaged to Adolin now, suck it. Faced with a complicated political situation between Dalinar and Sadeas, what does she do? Side immediately with Jasnah's family? No, she makes allies with a neutral character by social shaming him into housing her and giving her money. Wooing Adolin, does she act like the perfect noblewoman she has been educated to be? No, she asks him if he's ever pooped in his armor. All of these are clever, creative, and completely her own. They tell us something about who Shallan really is under the expectations people have piled onto her. She sees the best in people. She doesn't want to betray Jasnah's family, she wants to be a real part of it. She values her freedom to act and can pick up on very small, very nuanced social cues. She wants to be friends with Adolin and be genuinely intimate with him instead of having attraction tension like with Kaladin or elegant gestures like with Kasbal - she wants a real, long term relationship without even knowing that's what she wants. Those moments told me more about Shallan's character than the entire book before it did. And I like this Shallan. I want to read about *her*. She went from my least favorite to like, top 3 alongside Rysn and Dalinar.
Shallan is also in the unfortunate position of being in the same chapters as Jasnah Kholin, who is infinitely more intriguing and interesting. So not only are her chapters less interesting than Kaladin and Dalinar's action-packed sections, but even within her own chapters, she's not the most compelling character. I think some of her parts should have been through Jasnah's perspective instead. We could have learned the same information about Kharbranth, Philosophy, and the parshmen, while spending a liiiiiittlee less time eating bread.
(Love your channel name, btw) Interesting point -- Jasnah's perspective would've meant an entirely different story (we'd be given access to WAY more information). I love Jasnah, but I also see why Sanderson started with Shallan, so we have a character capable of "discovering" info for the audience.
Tbh I believe that some of the reason why Jasnah starts off so strong in this series as a character who, as you said, is "intriguing and interesting" is due in part to the fact that she has no POV
@@shewannawithout Honestly, that's exactly why I find Jasnah LESS interesting in the first book. Yes, she's more mysterious . . . because she's presented to us fully formed. She is an archetypal mentor character who mostly engages in dialogues with Shallan in a way that masks that their chapters are basically exposition dumps. The main thing that make her stand out is being a vocal atheist with a more tempered opinion on religion and god than most fictional examples. What makes Kaladin, Dalinar, and Adolin, interesting is how they change over the course of the story. Kaladin overcomes his broken idealism. Dalinar struggles to recreate himself as a better man, while acknowledging his ugly past. Adolin matures, at least a bit, and comes to value the ways his father wants to resurrect. Shallan also changes and develops, and I think she is interesting, but I think the dislike is not that her development is bad, her perspective parts just never quite hit it out of the park the way Kaladin or Dalinar's perspectives do. She seems less by comparison.
The most egregious sin Shallan does in my opinion is get praised by literally everyone. Shallan- makes a stupid comments Everyone around her- “HAHAHAHA, You’re SO WITTY!” It’s so much telling with bad showing. We’re told over and over that she’s witty and bright but I never once got that impression. It’s much better in the later books. I have come to love Shallan but the first two books were rough.
I mean, most of the people who say that are the dark eyes men on the ship and her brothers. Both of those make sense to me. Shallan is quite intelligent, and I suppose she is somewhat witty. Not only this, but to the uneducated dark eyes men, she probably seemed far brighter and more witty than she actually was because she's more educated than they are, and grew up in a more formal environment. Especially since she used lots of unnecessary words, is pretty, and talked so formally. Plus, these men likely want to impress and flatter her. As far as her brothers go, *spoilers for WoR* they were in a situation where you could say they were in need of some humor. When you grow up in such an awful environment, you take what you can get. Also, sorry for the late reply. I only just now realized thst this comment is a year old.
This pained me so much. The jokes weren't even funny. They were pedantic and annoying. Honestly, I don't think I'll get around to book 3. I tried with book 2 so many times, and I could only finish it after I slept through a chapter or two in the audiobook.
Everyone except Jasnah who is the only person that puts her in her place. I think Sanderson did that on purpose tho. Everyone simps for the bright eyes women, so they gonna laugh at every joke no matter how unfunny they are
Shallans story is alright. I just hate her personality. "Ho ho hoooo! I'm so smart and funny with my quick qwips that I have to point out everytime! No one gets me because I'm such an intellectual."
@@CobaltContrast it’s not so much the concept as the execution. There’s a scene in WoR where kaladin and shallan are bantering and it’s pretty badly written, like a teenager’s attempt at writing sarcastic humor. I think that’s where the criticism comes from.
I actually liked Shallan in the Way of Kings. It was Words of Radiance when I started getting really annoyed with her. Her back story is interesting, but I hated how, in the first half of words of radiance, things went her way so easily - to the point where she became almost Mary Sueish. *she also seemed snobby and uppity towards Kaladin who is considered lower class than her. I’m actually surprised Kaladin liked her in WoR because she seemed to embody a lot of what he disliked in light eyed upper class people. Sigh. I’m halfway through RoW and she’s more tolerable except the dissociative disorder thing is dragging on a bit
tell me about it, when I get to her parts I put the speed on x1.4 and when I read I just read the begining of each paragraph until some key words catch my eye you would surprised how long and repetitive her internal dialogue is I would go like a page and a half of self pity before we get a developement also while we are at (sorry lol) the love triangle was one of the most meaningless shits in the series and I just can not get myself to understand it or at least understand the way it ended why have it in the first place
RoW is currently my least favorite iteration of her. I swear I would have thrown the book out the window if she broke her oaths and turned Pattern into a deadeye.
I've only read Way of Kings but I don't hate Shallan. I actually really enjoy her character. That might change, but I find her story to be interesting and it's refreshing to read her chapters amongst all the war/guts/glory of all the other POVs.
Glad to hear you like Shallan! Her story in WoK is definitely more of a Mystery genre, and I totally get how her chapters are a welcome relief for some. I think you'll love her character even more when you read WoR (I definitely did).
I have to say, I'm glad to find that I'm not alone in my frustration with Shallan. Way of Kings wasn't so bad for me personally. However, i was very frustrated with her for a significant portion of RoW. I know she will eventually get her shit together, but it's just frustrating waiting on her to do so lol.
I mostly agree. I'm going through RoW right now. It's like, I love Shallan, but why are we here again?? I thought we were over the whole "Shallan has a dark past that she needs to confront," it was kind of the whole plot of WoR. Anyway, I trust Brandon, I'm sure it will pay off, but it is frustrating. Pls don't spoil anything, I haven't finished RoW yet!
I actually liked Shallan up until the split personalities stuff. And then added onto it is yet another “Oh wow I’m just remembering this important part of my life that reshapes how we view my character” moment which makes it the third in the series.
@@jonathanechevers6265 Im reading RoW rn and I would be alright with Shallan dealing with her dark past if we didn't have Oathbringer bring all of Dalinar's war crimes and everyone found out and Dalinar is doing fine lol
Personally I don't think there's anything wrong with Shalan's story arc/gravity. I just would NOT like to hang out with her. My problems with Shalan: 1) She thinks she's waay funnier/smarter than she actually is. 2) Her problems come off as very self-absorbed. Kal and Dal's issues deal with the fate of others, but a lot of Shal's story is how she wants to be liked.. 3) There's more than a bit of Mary Sue in her story. She just is smart and figures things out that seems like it would've been done by someone else in those situations (ie realizing the slow extinction of chasm fiends in WoR). And though she makes mistakes, none of them have long term consequences.. Kal trusts Moash which brings a bunch of turmoil. Dal trusts Sadeus bc of his visions and ens up losing most of his army. Shal dates an assassin, steals something priceless, later causes the deaths of people - but she always ends up fine and unaffected very shortly thereafter. I like enough of her to not hate her, but I'd find fake reasons to avoid her company if I knew her irl...
Shallan's dialogue sometimes came across like an intellectual reddit bro trying too hard, my main pain point. The only sanderson character that's gotten on my nerves.
Two years late to this party, but I just finished my reread of 1-3, and now am 60% through 4, so here we go. I am in the "I strongly dislike Shallan" category, and she is my least liked lead of all leads in ANY Sanderson book, and only partially for the pacing and structure reasons you laid out here. I also went into this with my friend LOVING Shallan, and just didn't get why I hated her, and continue to hate her more and more as the story goes. One, her personality, and the cringe. She's a deeply insecure person who covers up her insecurities with bad humor and making fun of others, often with extra words in order to make the person feel dumb and insecure and herself feel smarter. Which she then feels bad about but doesn't change or work on that. For my first read, she came off as a bully, but thinks herself in the right because she's funny and doing it for her family. The more we get into her split personalities the more she feels fake and like her entire existence is a lie. Its *not* DID, because she is making a VERY conscious choice to compartmentalize her emotions and personas. These are personas, not alters. Two, priorities. She's on this steal the soulcaster mission for her family, but doesn't actually seem to have any drive in her actions, and what she focuses on is never what she should be. She needs to steal the Soulcaster, but meanders endlessly, slacks at her duties, draws, and dallies with the scribe. While the romance plotline could have been cute, I read it as a distraction against her goal and her family, a wasteful indulgence that actively got in the way of her plans. She gets to the warcamps and has the most PAINFUL courtship with Adolin, putting on a show and it felt like she was leading him on. Meanwhile she spends two books mooning after Kaladin, which felt more honest but still toxic as hell. Then the plotline was just dropped without a solid resolution at the end of Oathbringer. She NEVER stopped putting on a show for Adolin, and I hated to see it. Three, skillset and *luck*. Her major talent is art, and that's fine, and I enjoyed how that translated into her lightweaving skills. But otherwise, she basically stumbles into sucess after sucess in manipulating, spying on and controlling the people around her, that always felt unearned. She had very little training and practices those skills much less than other cast members. That lack of experience then highlighted to me her ineptitude and how her successes felt like "because plot and luck." Unlike every other character, she never makes terrible mistakes that bite her where it hurts or faces the consequences of her desisions. We saw this where Jasnah just happens to check on her and read the letter, and was impressed by the fact that she's self taught, but then NEVER takes her studies with Jasnah seriously after the fact. She cons Sabariel into taking her on as a ward, cons her way into the Ghostbloods, cons herself into controlling a group of bandits, without any hiccups or major threats along the way. A problem that will follow her throughout the series. By contrast, we get Kaladin and Dalanar making progress, then a single decision made in good faith that nearly gets them and everyone they love killed. Repeatedly. The only times I can think of where her choices came back to bite her are when she was officially recruited into the Ghostbloods against her will, and when the kid in Kholinar died because she was giving him food. In the scope of the series, it's pretty weak. I find that characters sucking at what they do but are accidently successful is a thing I detest in any media. The same friend who got me reading Stormlight and loves Shallan also LOVES Isekai anime, for which characters waving thier hands and oops, im now the most powerful person on the planet. is a genre staple. I HATE Isekai anime for this same problem. I wonder if this is a trend. Long rant not withstanding, I don't HATE her. But I don't enjoy reading her.
Perfect summary. It irritated me so much I dropped the series. Her character could work but the way the world bent around her to conform to her whims was the frustrating part. Too many characters adore her despite her insufferable attitude. She specializes in deception/illusions which is fine but no distinction is made between illusion and reality. If her strength is in illusion then her weakness should be the disconnect between illusion and reality. An impressive figure built on foundations of sand is a very interesting concept but not explored with her character at all.
(Rhythm of war spoilers if you haven't finished it yet) No bad decisions that come back to bite her? did you forget about how her whole character arc is about dealing with the fact that she murdered her parents and broke her oath? 😭 Honestly, this feels like such an unfair characterization towards Shallan, especially the part about her "stumbling into success after success" and it being plot and luck. I think you misunderstand what "success" is for these characters. You could say the same thing about Kaladin, that he's just an op isekai type self-insert who's always the best soldier and beats foes that have hundreds of years of experience on him despite being a random 20 year old with relatively very little training. But obviously that's not what "success" is for him, his real struggle is overcoming the fact that no matter how good he is, he'll never be able to save everyone. The same way, getting into the ghostbloods or becoming Jasnah's ward are simply plot devices, while Shallan's real "success" is to be able to live with the things she has done and overcoming her repressed memories. Also, leading Adolin on? My brother in christ they are married 😭 Anyways, thanks for coming to my ted talk if you actually read all this lol, it's fine to not like Shallan because of her corny jokes or because you don't find her relatable but I thought some of these points were really biased
@Jay Drawz this comment right here is why I hate talking to people about any problems I have with a character that happens to be female. Way too many people online these days that'll immediately jump to "oh, is that because you actually just hate women?" No, I just have problems with a character that happens to be a woman. People need to stop jumping to that conclusion in bad faith.
One of my big problems with Shallan is that she seems to be written as an extreme unconfident character, constantly using quips to put others down and make herself seem better than she actually is, and nobody calls her out on it or decides to put this no name teenage girl running her mouth in her place. That and her needing 2000+ pages to finally come to a decision on the love triangle doesn't help, especially because her opinions on Kaladin or Adolin don't change
I think you nailed it when you mention how the Kaladin and Dalinar chapters feel more exciting and engaging and changing the focus to Shallan felt like a speed bump. Shallan's stakes felt so much lower, and that made her portions of Way of Kings feel like commercial breaks. In Rhythm of War, I feel like it's the other way around and I'm more interested in Shallan than Kaladin. Also her love triangle plot really rubbed me the wrong way.
I don’t like that Shallon never suffers the extent of the consequences of her actions. She steals the soulcaster, then fucks up and loses it. Logically, she should lose Jasnah’s trust and her brothers. This is where I was most intrigued. Then, she loses neither…because she has plot armor. Even if Jasnah takes her back in, I would’ve expected more reservations, cold shoulders, etc. Jasnah doesn’t care about her betrayal at all. Later, when Jasnah dies, and she loses all political backing, somehow! Somehow her brothers were fine the entire time. In between her leaving and the ghost bloods scooping them up, it’s been something like a year and a half. Her brothers should be long dead. Or at least, tortured and run down. Instead, she gets to forget about them while she goes on little missions and dating the prince. She doesn’t even seem that sad with the knowledge her family is fucked. She can still study chasmfiends all bubbly and happy. Which is my second problem with her. I get that Shallon deals with emotions through suppression, but that doesn’t translate well narratively. It feels like she just doesn’t care. Jasnah dies, and she pushes it down. Her brothers are probably dying, forget and move on. She gets the kid killed in Kholinar, put into Veil and forget. Every time something bad happens, she gets better in a day. Kaladin’s still moping about some kid he couldn’t save years later. Shallon doesn’t even think about the kid she killed in all of RoW. This makes her story feel somewhat superficial. Someone who’s unnaturally happy when those around them are hurt because of them feels calloused and selfish. To return to the first point, she doesn’t get the consequences of her actions in many little ways as well. No one seems appropriately offended by her quips, even though they’re both improper and hurtful. Even Lopen! Even Lopen has to acknowledge he is mean sometimes and swear an oath against it. But somehow Shallon doesn’t. The only one who seems offended is Kaladin, but by insulting him a few more times he turns around and admits she had it worse all along. Even though she wouldn’t survive a day on the bridge crews and I would honestly like to see that happen. Let Shallon be a slave for once and see the people she mocks for being Bridge Boys. She also manages to get so much success with absolutely minimal expertise. She learns conning for like a week, then successfully cons the entire royal court, the high princes, deserters, the ghost bloods, and in a month she’s teaching others how to spy. Really? Her claim to fame is lightweaving. She shouldn’t know how to spy. I’d like to see her fail at acting a few times. When she stabs her hand, I want to see her break character and cry, because she hasn’t sustained that level of injury in her life! It’s absolutely immersion breaking that she just can, without ever learning. I’d like to see her trick the deserters, who then turn on her because many of them are actually murderers and the worst of men. I’d like to see her not be able to keep her promise to them, given she has minimal political power in the beginning. It seems wrong that Shallon’s word weighs more than the law, when people like Gaz have ruined the lives of hundreds like Kaladin.
I know this comment is months old, but I found it funny you calling attention to her plot armour and lack of failure… when her character arc has consistently trended down within each book and across the series She never fails… but she’s still broken, untrusting and getting worse. She’s not succeeding. She’s unravelling The small successes you argue should be important are largely irrelevant to her story and to the story at large. The more we seem to learn about Shallan, the more withdrawn her perspective becomes. She went from being a young newly freed teen on a daring quest in a whole new world all the way to an unstable and untrusting assassin willing to kill members of her new radiant family
@@MAORIguy25 And this is why I like Shallan less and less as the books go on. I actually loved her in the first two books. Really started disliking her in Oathbringer. She is regressing, getting worse and worse. Unraveling as you put it. To me, this progression doesn't really make sense. It feels kind of forced. Everyone is nice to her and likes her and wants to help her. Everyone gives her second, third, fourth chances. She has not one, but two super hot magical men lusting for her for seemingly no reason. It honestly makes no sense that either Kaladin or Adolin would want her, but the forced love triangle is there anyway. everything kind of gets better for her, but she gets worse and worse anyway. I don't really get it and it definitely makes her feel unlikable. Ashame, because again I really enjoyed her in the first two novels. I basically wanted to skip every Veil chapter in Oathbringer.
@@LC-wv7tz I mean, spoilers, it does make sense if oaths and spren are important She committed an unspeakable act, which echoes wrongs of the past. Through her, they can find a new way to deal with the fall out So her character arc has larger considerations than just assuming some hero journey path She did to her spren something no one should’ve been able to do. And her slide downwards is merely her resetting, because everything before now was just the mask of someone terrible either hiding from the pain of their crime, or someone trying to stay alive after they’ve sacrificed the most important thing to them
I really enjoyed Shallan’s chapters in WoK, because I felt like she was the most relatable character coming from an outsider perspective. Kaladin and Dalinar are already so entrenched in their own stories that it’s unrealistic for them to muse about the political and cultural states of foreign countries. Shallan, on the other hand, is a great character through which to gain a baseline understanding of Roshar as a whole. Sure, Kaladin’s storyline is infinitely more interesting than “Shallan ate some bread,” but I still learned so much more about Roshar from Shallan’s perspective, rather than from Kaladin’s or Dalinar’s. It wasn’t until Oathbringer that Shallan REALLY started getting on my nerves.
listen, i feel like this is as good a place as any to lay out my grievances with shallan. first off, i actually liked her in WoK. i didn’t like her chapters as much as kaladin’s obviously, but that wasn’t her fault - very few characters could hold their own against him. but no, where i started to dislike shallan was in WoR, and it just went downhill from there. i’ll try to sum it up in these points: 1) she gets everything she wants. like, 90% of the time things work out for her. when she stole jasnah’s soulcaster, there were no consequences and jasnah agreed to just train her anyway and not be mad. when she stumbles alone into a group of slave merchants in the woods, she just orders them around and talks down to them, and instead of r***ing, robbing and killing her, they literally switch directions and head back the way they’d just come to bring her to the shattered plains. when she gets there, she’s worried about fitting in, but it doesn’t actually matter because adolin instantly clicks with her and sebariel just goes along with her desperate gamble and offers a large salary and place in his house to this random girl he’s never met. it just goes on and on - she orders people around and people leap to obey her, forgive her, or whatever. VERY rarely do we ever see her plans backfire, the way we do with kaladin or dalinar. 2) i HATE the way she treats adolin. and yeah, all their scenes together are horribly cringe, but that’s not even what i’m talking about. from the second half of WoR (when she spends a few days in the chasms w kaladin) up until the end of OB when they get married, shallan is kind of awful to adolin. she’s constantly staring at kaladin, flirting with him, drawing him, and as we find out towards the end of OB, she’s not subtle about it because adolin has clocked it many times. that’s just so disrespectful to me and personally destroyed any “cuteness” they might have had. at one point in OB they literally go from having a heart to heart together where shallan is confiding all of her mental struggles to adolin, and in the next scene they’re walking up to kaladin and shallan stops to admire him with adolin right there, and she says “i need to draw that”. like COME ON girl, have just one OUNCE of respect. 3) she simply can’t take responsibility for anything. this sort of ties back to the last point, but it’s bigger than that too. this girl, for the life of her, cannot say the words “i’m sorry, that’s my fault, i shouldn’t have done that.” most notably it happens at the end of OB during the scene where adolin confronts her about lusting after kaladin. instead of being like “i’m so sorry, i just got confused, please forgive me, it’s you i actually want to be with”, her reaction is basically “adolin you’re being so stupid right now. you think just because i shoot him longing glances, i’d actually want to sleep with him?? don’t be an idiot. i mean, my alter ego veil kind of wants to sleep with him, but i’ve got her under control so you really have no reason to be mad at me.” this scene genuinely made my blood boil. not to mention the fact that she NEVER has a conversation with kaladin where she apologizes for leading him on or flirting with him or confusing him. she just kind of acts cute and flirty with him one moment and then makes out with adolin so he gets the message that it’s never gonna happen. nice. and unfortunately her character suffers from this perpetual “nothing is my fault” sort of attitude. yes, she blames herself for killing her parents, but that is unfortunate too because it’s basically the only time her character takes responsibility for anything throughout the series, and her main growth as a character is to try to NOT blame herself for those things. which is frustrating for someone who wants her to grow into taking accountability for stuff. obviously i don’t WANT her to blame herself for her parents deaths, but i don’t want to read a storyline of her learning to take LESS accountability for her actions. 4) her storylines are really repetitive at this point. i mean, her plot in the first book was just kind of dull. in the second book, she had secret memories she was repressing even from herself, that were threatening to damage her mentally. in the third book, she invented new personas to further deflect blame off of herself for things (esp the whole “it’s just veil that likes kaladin” thing), and try to deal with these new painful memories. in the fourth book, she had secret memories that she was repressing even from herself, that were threatening to damage her mentally, AND she’s dealing with the different personalities at the same time!😦 like, it’s just so removed from the main meat of the story, and it gets really repetitive to watch her fight back painful memories for 4,000+ pages at this point. i just don’t want to read her chapters. 5) i just don’t like her. sorry, this is more subjective, but as some other people have said in the comments, her personality is just grating. she’s pretty rude to kaladin often for no reason, she’s extremely condescending towards adolin (which is ironic because when they first met i remember adolin being happy that she ‘never made him feel stupid’ and yet half her lines to him at this point start with “no, dear,” or “adolin you are such a fool!”) she treats everyone as if they should bow down to her, and yet she’s constantly whining about how “she’s not good enough” or “she’s a horrible person” but never does anything differently. every character around her bends over backwards to try to make her happy and okay, and she takes it almost completely for granted (except for adolin, where she does have a couple *rare* moments of realizing he’s too good for her). just overall her whiny and entitled personality doesn’t do it for me. soooo yeah that’s an extensive list of why she doesn’t work for me. by the end of OB i hated her so much that i was tempted to just read everyone else’s chapters and read summaries of her chapters instead. i genuinely had to take a ✨rage break✨ after her conversation with adolin about kaladin towards the end. it’s safe to say that i will be trying to read as little of her character as possible upon any rereads of the series, and i’m honestly sure that it won’t change too much of the overall plot if i just ignore her entirely.
I enjoyed Shallan parts of narration too! I think it depends on ones personality.. Likes and dislikes. Anyway its good to enjoy different flavors in book than be choosy and grumpy abt it..
Agreed! She’s the biggest Bad A$$ out of everyone! No one has been through what she has yet she conquers every challenge thrown at her with undaunted determination. Plus she comes with the best one liners! Anyone who hates Shallon has a few rocks in their head. Or possibly doesn’t understand the subtle nuances of her character;)
@@ptuna861 Okay I agree Shallan's life is pretty fucked up. But I wouldn't say its objectively worse than Kaladin's. The dude's brother was killed because his father wanted to ensure that he, kaladin, had a bright future. And then kaladin was enslaved and (essentially) tortured just for doing the right thing (giving up the shards and trying to save his men).
So I'm probably in the minority because when I read The Way of Kings, I loved Shallan and her arc, but I disliked her character in Words of Radiance a lot. It is probably because Shallan doesn't know who she is, and now in Oathbringer she keeps using her personas as a defense mechanism. I'm still in the middle of Oathbringer, but I'm interested to see how Shallan will grow until the end of the series
@@helewis mine is actually Lift XP it's not that i don't think that she is well written, she is. I just do NOT like child characters. at all. So you can imagine how much i like a character that reacts very much like an actual child. Shallan drives me crazy because she kind of devolves into very child like behavior.
@@brandond2768 omg I feel yooou, I kind of forgotten about Lift to be honest... she's really the type of indifferent character to me, though I like it better when she's not on the pages lol. But I agree with what you said about both of them
My problem with Shallan is mainly because Sanderson makes the characters that interact with her look stupid and petty whever she has a scene with the other main cast. Like for example in WoR in the chasms Kaladins racist remarks were VERY FORCED imo. That made him look like a complete ass and petty infront of her so she could repremand him or one up herself to Kal. Sanderson would make Adolin also look like doofus in front of her so that she could look more mature. And her multiple personality disorder also seems forced as hell.
It's honestly kinda funny seeing so many people wanting her chapters over quick to see Dalinar/Kaladin in WoK, when for me I wanted to get back to Shallan ASAP during their chapters xD. I eventually grew to like those 2 a ton more, but Shallan will always be my favourite with how mystery focused her chapters are + her super underrepresented mental issues
I kind of skipped her chapters and read them after it all... It was the worst decision ever....I bored myself even more and was just begging myself to read faster and skip some parts because I wanted to go on the next book. And than her progress was even worse than the first book. I don't like her even now. Not that she is bad character, she is just uninteresting character that everyone in the book likes for no reason
At the end of part one I was like : "hey I'm really starting to like shallan" and then part one endend and I didn't see her again for hundreds of pages. I was de bit disapointed.
Same! The back cover promises us four main characters, but in the end, Szeth has almost zero screen time and Shallan also has very little. Those were the two most intriguing characters for me, so being stuck in the head of a depressed guy getting more depressed or a guy who thinks he's crazy but very obviously isn't was frustrating to me and made way of kings my least favorite in the series.
I am re-reading the series and am about halfway done with Oathbringer. The thing that annoys me most about Shallan is how she internalizes most of her development. It sorta takes place only within her own head, Pattern is there too of course. This kinda makes it feel like the plot doesn't need her. I also hate how the, seemingly obligatory, love triangle is forced on her, as tends to be the case for female characters.
She's kind of annoying, but I can see why she would hold the viewpoints that cause her annoying behaviour. Then I reread up to pg. 757 of Oathbringer (mild spoilers obviously). She literally blames the slaves who will be executed for escaping for being too stupid or lazy to escape from arrow fodder duty in order to defend her own group of deserters-turned-guards, despite the fact that one of her guards is part of why they had such horrific conditions. She's always bought way too heavily into the 'light/darkeyes' power dynamic for my liking, but this takes the cake and shits on it. I haven't read Rhythm of War yet, but at this point I'd be happy if it was 1000 pages of Shallan facing the consequences of her bullshit.
OATH BRINGER SPOILERS HAVENT FINISHED IT BUT LETTING YOU KNOW. READING AUDIBLE SO IM IN SHADESMAR BUT DONT KNOW WHAT PAGE THAT IS BUT WELL OVER 800. I AGREE! SHE NEVER FACES THE CONSEQUENCES! Literally whit saved her and if you read the audible in that chapter after the orphan gets killed she literally only spends 2 minutes dealing with what she did while every other character takes at least 4 chapters to deal with what they have done. and whit was way to captain save Shallan for my damn liking. he's not usually this helpful to any other character and frankly its really irritating that two white characters are talking for two whole chapters. like shut up. and whit didn't help kelsier that much in mist born book but all of a sudden he's caping for ms Shallan. even Dalinar he gave him quick advice and told him he's not who he is looking for. im gonna do a video on this because I really feel strongly that she is giving off victim vibes. and she IS NOT SUFFERING FROM depression Kaladin is! She runs her mouth eveytime and is a sh!t starter but can never back it up hell she can't even run without stormlight like girl come on what are you doing? she is the worst Adeline is dumb as hell for her.
@@Daleanaaa Um first Wit helps everyone in the stormlight archive to the same amount (maybe not dalinar but kaladin and shallan get very similar scenes between them). Shallan has never played victim at all, hell a big part of her thing in WoR is that she always locks away her trauma and people who know about it are quite frankly impressed that she keeps it all in, compare to Kaladin who wallows in them (not his fault kinda how depression works), or dalinar, who literally was a tyrant who performed massacre and suffering from PTSD, runs away from it with alcohol (kinda how PTSD works). She has been designed to not go into depression but disassociate her personality. Her consequences are random blackouts, and lack of control of her personas.
@@AB-dm1wz sorry, I thought it was clear, possibly the page numbers are different in other editions. When they are in Kholinar, she blames Kaladin's men for their own suffering as bridgemen and says they're too stupid to not run at arrows, despite the fact that they will be executed for refusing to run. Plus all the injustice involved in the bridge slave system in the first place, and she uses it to defend her own people, which includes Gaz who enforced the hellish conditions they were under. It's even worse when you consider that three of them are currently protecting her and have just flown her across nations. And Adolin, who apparently is supposed to look out for the little guy, ends up stopping Kaladin from calling Shallan out on this blatant victim blaming, and it's never brought up again.
2 of the main characters have major consequences for their actions in a logical progression. Shallan steals the soul caster, and gets an apprentice ship from Yazna, who it has been established would never take such a thing lightly. Shallan also gets kalladins boots by being an annoying pompous ass. Kalladin is established as not being the type to bend the knee, even to high ranking people. It even explicitly states that he knows shallan is bull sh*ting him. I don't dislike her because her parts are slow, I dislike her because she is marry sue adjacent to the point of screwing with other characters personalities.
Yeah, especially with Kaladin's 'wow she's suffered so much more than me at least my parents love me' thing. No Kaladin you were on the fucking bridge crews having everyone you love die over and over again, don't beat yourself up for not being as 'broken' as Shallan.
Spoilers: I enjoyed Shallan in the beginning, actually, and in words of radiance. I was okay with her in oathbringer. But in Rythym of war, she is by far my least favorite character of the book due to her regression, that to me, seemed to just come out of nowhere. I thought in Oathbringer she made progress to not regress into her other personalities, but in Rythym of War she went completely the opposite way. I was also annoyed with this for Kal, it just feels like the same stuff over again, but it felt different for him somehow. I just hope it doesn't happen again.
Rhythm of war frustrated me by pretending that Pattern may be a traitor and that formless could take over, then you don't see Shallan at all for hundreds of pages, and then it turns out that neither of these are a problem actually.
For some reason Shallan’s chapters were my favorites, and I was really bummed out when the book took a break from her for like 150 pages. For me it was just really uninteresting to follow these super angsty strong warriors constantly going ”woe is me!,” and Shallan broke that off.
Old comment but I totally agree. I loved the world building and her sense of humor, and imo it was a necessary change of pace from Kaladin constantly getting kicked into the dirt over and over again. Shallan was my favorite main character from her introduction tbh
Only person in these comments that I've found echoing something that I had a problem with in Kaladin's chapters. This is a long book and there's only so many times that I can hear Kaladin mope after a major victory because he can't save everyone. It's realistic in most places but some of the chapters it would follow right after he saved a bunch of lives and instead of pressing forward we need to read a whole chapter of him being angsty before he bucks up and decides on what to do next in the final sentence.
Shallan and the interludes certainly work better is subsequent readings/listening. On first run I can see how it can be frustrating. Oddly enough I personally don't remember being annoyed by anything other than a trip to a different place in Oathbringer. I will be getting to my second listen of that section very soon and I will see if I find it as annoying
When my Fiance was reading WoK, she really had the opposite reaction to Shallan. She doesn't really care about the punching and the stabbing, but the intrigue, drama and mystery of Shallan and Jasnah had her gripped. So much so that when she learned part 2 didn't have *any* Shallan she had to take a break from the book.
Shallan was my favourite character in the way of kings. If Kaladin's chapters were like a desert, Shallan's were like oases (and Dalinar's were like asphalt). Don't misunderstand me, I liked the book, but reading about Kaladin's depression wasn't actually enjoyable in a certain sense. Shallan's chapters were so fresh and easy to read, I was always hoping the next one was hers.
When you said "the elephant in the room" I thought it was going to be the fact that she's the major female lead of the series and the other two leads are very angsty men. I see the pattern a lot in fandom spaces that major female characters are judged more harshly. Back in like 2008 people would watch ATLA and then go on forums to complain that Katara was annoying. It's particularly noticeable when you have a main character who presents as very feminine. Often the traits people complain about are gender tinged. Talks to much, is annoying, too emotional, too weak, etc. If there's a female support character that is seen as more "strong" or androgynous or not demure/feminine, then that character is often propped up. GoT: Everyone loves Arya and Brienne, but it takes 4+ seasons for people to stop being impatient with Sansa ATLA: During the show's run, Toph was constantly praised by fans and Katara often criticized Way of Kings: Independent powerful Jasnah is so cool and Shallan is so annoying People used to go off about Hermione Granger back in the day too. Shows and series that start with a female as the central protagonist can usually bypass this (but not always), but if there's an ensemble or small group of main characters, the feminine one is usually going to be dumped on by fans.
I’ve always thought Shallan’s arc in TWOK was a little more like a coming of age story. I think people who don’t like/can’t relate to those type of stories would understandably find her annoying and naive
I have never, literally not once, seen anyone critise or express their dislike of Katara. People love that character (as do I). I think people moreso gravitate to characters that have agency and try to do things. Sansa for example is mainly a victim, just trying to survive, which I find compelling but I can also understand why people don't like the character as much since she cannot express as much personality. IDK if I would throw this all on misoginy. Just in general your examples seem kinda weak, as in my experience all of those, except maybe Sansam, are all very well liked characters.
@@michielmanders9766 nah I’ve seen tons of Katara hate tbh. People whine about how she’s always hung up on her mother, she’s a Debby downer, she’s the least interesting character in the Gaang, etc. I’m not saying it’s all misogyny, but there is definitely a pattern I’ve noticed. At the very least she is nowhere near as popular as Toph
@@ElijahStormblessed imo it's a little silly to hate on a character. I mean, she's not real, she's just a character. A not very well written one, but that's no fault of her. And i don't hate on Brandon either, by the way. I genuinely think he is one of the best, if not the best contemporary author. The whole Stormlight archive series has been a blast so far. But Shallan's chapter are not on par with the rest. She feels like a Wheel of Time character: driven by the plot instead of driving it.
I reaally liked her in the first 3 books, but in the 4th book I got really tired of her 3 different personalities talking to each other and it just kept going on and on.. maybe thats just me
@@RobinsMusic I think a big part of this was due to Brandon putting in the effort to give some good DID representation through Shallan's system, and from what I've heard it sounds like he did a pretty good job of it :)
My issue with shallan comes from how she has deployed, shallan book 1 was fantastic imho. I apppreciated her slow and methodical approach but her young adult way of being impulsive. What I don’t like is how in the newer books she has changed so much especially the introduction of the “others” I hate how her and the others affect her relationships.
I'm with you. I loved Shallan as a character basically until Oathbringer. Every other character seems to be progressing, overcoming. Shallan just gets worse and worse it seems. It's kind of sad, but it's also confusing. I don't get it. She has friends, allies, confidants, etc. It feels forced.
I agree Shallan's curiosity about the ecology of Roshar helped pull me into WoK the first time, and since Shallan's arc became the Ghostbloods arc. While improving the stakes and pacing for her chapters, I miss the worldbuilding/exposition of this strange planet. I was happy to see it return in her sketches of the spren in ROW.
She's not my least favorite character, thanks to Moash. I was on the fence about her after the first book. Her chapter were interesting enough, though not as much as Kaladin's and i liked the romance scenes. In the second book, i enjoyed the part were she disguises her identity and so on. Though, again, at the same time, things were moving much faster for every other character. In the third book, it felt like she had nothing to bring to the story and i would rather had Jasnah's PoV, or Renarin, or even the crazy slippery thief whom i can't recall the name. Her chapters feel more and more empty, like they have no substance, no meat. I'm no book critic expert so i can't exactly put my finger on what the problem is but they just feel boring. Also the character is not relatable, which is a shame cause she is the only female lead so far. Again, i would rather spend some time with Jasnah, or the slippery thief. Please bring back slipper she-knight, she sounds like her chapters could be super funny.
Just heard about the novella. I must find it but here in france we are 1 to 2 years late on anything published due to translation. And English versions are a rarity.
im the only one that in Oathbringer just pass the Shallan chapters?. I kind of like Shallan, but it really feels like the action stops so hard on her chapters, its very frustrating. (Im argentinian, very sorry for the bad writing! hahaha).
I don’t hate shallan, and personally i liked her in A Way Of Kings. Somewhere along oathbringer i started strongly disliking her character though. I feel a specific romance between her and someone was a missed opportunity, and her internal character voice gets very old after a time. Towards the end of Rhythm of War i started liking her povs again. Overall- She’s a really complicated situation for me🤷🏼
Oh this is definitely me. I liked her in TWOK and WOR but felt less and less fond of her in Oathbringer. Can't say anything specific because it might be a spoiler but the fact that she tends to run away from her burden by doing what she does and her constant indecisiveness are what made her less appealing as a character for me. Haven't read ROW.
I also think another thing with Shallan is that we really don’t know as much about her quite as we do with Kaladin and Dalinar. With Kaladin we pretty solidly get his entire backstory and that’s of course enough to help build the emotional attachment, with Dalinar, we don’t get his full backstory until Oathbringer but we at least have this sort of backstory hook in Gavilar’s death and how Dalinar has this resentment in himself for not being there to protect Gavilar and we can see well enough how that informs his actions. Shallan, we know a little bit about her background but we don’t really have as strong a base for her backstory in Way Of Kings. Its not until WOR that we really get that and that does SO MUCH to contextualize why Shallan is the way she is. For me personally it was when she became my favorite of the three and I think her backstory and the basis of her character it establishes is a big reason why
I want to say I disagree that Shallan's plight is less dangerous than Kaladin's and Dalinar's. Sure, it is a lot more spread out, but she has this looming threat that her family is not only going to lose grace, but also most likely be murdered by thugs, who then may come after her. I dunno. Maybe I'm just retroactively placing that tension in there. I think Shallan is definitely one of Sanderson's better female characters; having read a few of his other books, I think they can all look pretty similar with some shared character traits and philosophical progressions. It's been a bit since I've read this series because I'm a chronically bad reader, so I feel I'm a little out of touch. To your credit, I kinda feel like picking up the next book, though, so whee!
As someone who hated and has come to only mildly dislike Shallan, I’m happy to see why people enjoy her character to see if I agree. I don’t agree, but I love the video and enjoy the point of view. :)
**Major spoilers for Rhythm of War** I hate Shallan because in book 4, she is like 'Woe is me, woe is me' then the reason she is like that is because she did something she had no choice in. She was literally a child when it happened. Like, you abandoned, your spren, essentially killed it, but you were a child when it happened. it was actually the spren's fault because it was the one who bonded a child.
Dude, I agree so much. On paper, she's a fascinating character. However, I think I grew to resent her because I really only wanted to read about Kaladin. Dalinar grew on me once I got his back story later, but Shallan just wouldn't do anything. She's so wishy/washy. Act, woman. You took me away from Bridge Four, dammit.
Am i the only one that liked the cliff hangers and being torn away from my characters that I'm fawning over? The break, the repreive, is so important and impressive to write something so well. Not to mention her chapters had so much amazing lore and back story that helped flesh out the world. Her information on parshmen made understanding the other chapters and how they were both dynamicly slaves and yet warriors.
*Mild WoR Spoilers* You hit the nail on the head for me. I enjoyed Shallans chapters because of the other people in them. I thought Jasnah and Pattern were interesting, as well as that plot of investigting the voidbringers. But Shallan herself was really lackluster. This is highlighted in WoR when Jasnah is removed from the plot. Shallan is supposed to be witty and funny but I found the funniest parts of her chapters had more to do with the other people than her. Additionally the reasons I liked her chapters had very little to do with her, it had more to do with the people around her or the information that was being revealed. Herr primary role in all of that is simply being present, which is really lackluster. All of the other chapters in WoK were very plot driven and you can see that the characters are always in a different spot at the end of each of their chapters. But, like you pointed out, it takes Shallan over 500 pages (!!!) to see a meaningful progression to her arc, which made it feel like her chapters were always dragging on with all of these pointless details.
Hey! Shallan Disliker here. I really enjoyed your video, I think you made some great points, especially near the end. For me, it is absolutely her dialogue. I actually didn't mind the slower pacing, I thought it was a good build to her character and the environments and what not, but it did REALLY bloat the book quite a bit. The biggest thing for me is Shallan's quippiness. She does come across as very cringe sometimes (her and wit, both.) The bloated, overly formal, too wordy dialogue takes up place on the page and sounds Way Too Much like someone trying to sound intelligent. It's this "I'm so much smarter than you!" vibe that really just pulls me off and dosen't interest me in her character, and in fact, pulls me away. I can absolutely understand what people are saying, such as The Myth of Izziphus, that this comes from Trauma. That dosen't change the fact that the dialogue is cringe, and bad, and annoying. I personally, hated the boots scene. Not only was it way to long and over the top, but it was also a form of lighteyes using their oppressive power over the darkeyes without any drawbacks what so ever. To me, Shallan comes across as way too quipy, much like a Marvel character. I don't see much of her trying to form genuine bonds with people, and rather prefers to lash out at people (especially kaladin) and insult them, while at the same time making herself look and feel so smart! It's not only this, but the prose seems to be On Her Side in these moments as well, as if she is constantly in the right. I absolutely love her journey as a character. going from a teenager making it into the world, to a ward of a powerful woman, to a thief, to all the other routes she goes down WoR and Oathbringer. However, it dosen't change the fact that she clings to very few people close to her (like adolin) and otherwise seems content to lash out at people, all the while making herself seem oh so smart. This dosen't make me hate Shallan's character overall, normally she's fine, but there is a fine line between when I can enjoy a character for being witty, and for when it is consitently being shoved down my throat with overly-wordy, bloated dialogue. I completely agree that Brandy has gotten better in words of radiance and FAR better in Oathbringer (Though even in that there are still parts that make me REALLY cringe.) Try noticing for yourself how many insults just boil down to "Your face" or "your appearance is ugly" For example, when Lift does this, it's occasional, and you know that she's just doing it for a joke, but with Shallan it's always with this undertone of her sticking her chin in the air and seeming better then the other person. In short, it's annoying. SPOILERS FOR OATHBRINGER In one of the last parts of Oathbringer, Shallan is talking with Adolin after he's seeing her oogling Kaladin again, and says that he'll let Kaladin have her. Obviously she gets upset at this, (at being treated like an object, you know, patriarchy and all that) as she should, but she also COMPLETELY invalidates Adolin's genuine frustration at her being unfaithful to him in their engagement. She makes excuses, saying she's an artist, when we have Literally Seen From her POV her lusting after him. She rants in a literal PARAGRAPH of dialogue about it.
Yeah.... Shallan's forced love triangle thing is what has made me dislike her more than anything else. I never disliked the character until Oathbringer. In fact, I quite enjoyed her in WoK and WoR. Not every character can be badass muscle man doing cool honorable things and learning her backstory and trauma was amazing. The thing is, Shallan enver seems to progress or get better. We see Kaladin constantly struggling and barely winning agains this demons of depression. And also conquering his bitterness and jadedness surrounding the class system (which he has every right to despise). Shallan just seems so static? She's still the same, quippy, insecure, overcompensating child we had since the first book. She barely started to stand on her own two feet in Words of Radiance, and all that completely reverts in Oathbringer. Shallan even says this herself and recognizes. But she basically blames it on Jasnah and we never really see her overcome it or "pass the test". She in fact just gets worse and worse, fracturing her identity and giving into these weird delusions and multiple personality. I want her to be better. I kind of hate her incognito chapters. I like her being a scholar and scientist way more.
I liked her in the Way Of Kings. But than... Words Of Radiance Shallan happened... Haven't finished it yet, but I see her as some spoiled brat that succeeds in everything. She was closed a child, than a scholar and now at her first try she became an excellent actress. I think that her progression has been hastened to much
@@riley8385 Jasnah: belongs to the most powerful House in the world, extremely beautiful, extremely smart, masters 4th ideal way before everyone else does, strongest spellcaster ever, beats everyone in swordfights. Yeah, definitely not Mary Sue 🤣
@@TheAleosha You don't know what a Mary Sue is, my dude. You're just listing character traits. A character being good at shit or having money doesn't make them a "mary sue". A lot of those things can be applied to Dalinar and Adolin. Kaladin is extremely good at fighting when he's just the son of a surgeon with considerably fewer years of training than, said, Adolin. But I doubt you would call Kaladin/Adolin/Dalinar a Mary Sue. As for Jasnah, she's a noble, has been a scholar for some good 15 years and a Radiant for 7 years, way before everyone else. Did you miss the part when Dalinar judges her swordplay as being barely above a student in RoW? Because she has lived the life of a scholar, not a soldier, and needed to train in secret for 7 years (and even still she's not that good at fighting). There's an entire chapter in which she struggles to fight against a Fused and is scared shitless of being in the battlefield. She even has trouble with the regular soldiers, and only managed to get the upper hand in that fight because of the armor and the support of the other soldiers. Not to mention we don't have her backstory yet.
@@TheAleosha Do you think Navani is a mary sue because she's an engineer? Or that Dalinar is a Mary Sue because he's a better general than every other highprince? Adolin is the head of the most powerful princedom in Alethkar, is extremely attractive and a master duelist to the point he can go toe-to-toe with three shardbearers at once. Mary Sue doesn't mean "character who is good at something".
Her chapters in Way of Kings is not interesting until she slowly reveal her true talent. She become my favorite character when she keep true to her mission even though she got engaged to Adolin.
Really interesting... And yes, I can see your argument about the jarring disconect, but for me it was a great thing. The Kaladin story beats are SO intense in particular the Shallan scenes were a welcome break to let the tension out. In particlar there are scenes where something awful happens to Kaladin and then the story picks up a bit later - time has passed - and the Shallan chapter between them makes that feel more natural. On the other hand, whilst Sanderson's writing has improved I've grown to dislike Shallan more and more as the story goes on. Her 'arc' felt complete by end of WoR - she has faced up to the whole in herself and gone through a transition. In WoR I liked it whenever she was with Dalinar or Kaladin but the rest of the time it was less... impact than the stuff she was doing with Jasnah, (MINOR OATHBRINGER SPOILERS - NOT END OF BOOK SPOILERS BUT GENERIC BOOK SETTING SPOILERS) But I, personally, don't find who she has transitioned into very interesting. I don't find her minor plot threads in Oathbringer interesting as I am not learning about either her or the world in any significant way. Whereas before, although the purpose was slow, it was clear. Now she is just being led by the nose by shadowy people. Kaladin suffers from this as well - the book is not about him - he's just 'there' going through the motions, only for him I found the motions a little more compelling. I am sure this will get turned around and Shallan will become important and relevent again, and these new story beats are building somewhere but it feels as though WoR was her big 'moment' and it's still to be seen what role she has in whats to come. To.... To go into more detail would spoil Oathbringer. All I'll say is I'm sure a lot of people will find the Shallan stuff in it brilliant and fascinating but for me it was a bit 'oh, I liked the old Shallan, can we have her back? She was more interesting'.
I completely get your point, and that must've been Sanderson's intent to make Shallan's scenes a welcome break from the intensity. And I understand what you felt about Shallan's arc in WoR. I've just started Oathbringer, and already it seems like Shallan has moved backward slightly, in terms of arc progress.
Says Sanderson gets better with splitting readers attention -> Rhythm of War was RIFE with Listener flashbacks that most people I know weren’t able to focus through.
I really liked Jasnah and she stole from her. I really liked Kaladin and she took his boots on their first meeting. Also the fact that her actions never have consequences.
I totally agree with you Shallan is a contender for my favorite character in the series. Maybe it's because I too am a little bit cringe but I enjoyed her terrible humour (I enjoy humour that's intentionally very bad, where the joke is how bad the joke is). It's also interesting seeing her deal with things like trauma and identity, I think Brandon did a great job with her character.
I think Shalan is a wonderfully complex and compelling character and I freaking love her. She might be my favorite character in the books (though it would be tough to pick- I really love them all!) I love that there is so much more depth, pain, strength, and fragility in her than we are first lead to believe and I love the way this slowly unfolds. She's definitely not your run-of-the-mill spoiled rich girl off to see the world for the first time, though she does seem so at first. Definitely agree that the impatience/annoyance I sometimes felt with her, especially in The Way of Kings, is more of a pacing issue than anything to do with her character. Thanks for the brilliant videos, loving them!
I totally loved shallan's chapters in WoK. Maybe I'm biased bc she was the first important female character (that's at leats how I remember it). But I still found her and her arc to be intriguing and exciting, even at the beginning
I feel like you always have this issue with multiple POV characters. At least at first. On my first read, I really disliked Shallan's chapters. The story started with Kaladin and I want to know how his story continues goddamnit. On subsequent reads, however, I find myself really enjoying Shallans chapters and wondering what my problem was. I feel the same about Elantris, as well. Used to absolutely hate Hrathen's chapters, but on a re-read, it's not as bad. (Though I still prefer Raoden's and Sarene's chapters) And this is a book where Brandom himself says he messed up the POV switches. A Song of Ice and Fire I have not read multiple times, but I had similar issues with it, particularly in A Game of Thrones, but really through the first three or four books. There were just some chapters (Cersei, Sansa, Jaime) that I liked much much less than others (Arya, Tyrion, Daenerys). I think it was only in the last book where I actually enjoyed reading all the chapters. In the other ones it felt more like a chore.
Nice analysis. Particularly, I found Kaladin & Dalinar chapters and developments way more interesting in all books, while Shallan can be really... "unfunny and annoying" as you stated, with few captivating scenes comparing to the others, which is kinda lame because she have so many chapters and maybe it was supposed to make me like her as it passes. Probably this "early stage" of the character, considering that she will developt much more, is not really my thing (or maybe the character as a whole). Her relationship with Adolin and with Pattern are very good tho
I was a little upset when I was reading the way of kings and saw that Shallan didn't have any chapters in the next part after Jasnah decided to take her in.
I'm half way through Words of Radiance but Shallan was always my second favorite character, right behind Dalinar in Way of Kings. Now that Dalinar has taken a huge back seat in Words of Radiance, Shallan is still 2nd and Adolin is my favorite. She is a bit cringy, but Sanderson books in general are pretty cringy as a whole. I just learned to live with it. At least her chapters are interesting and things are happening. Kaladin's chapters all felt the same in Way of Kings. He does a thing, and then he gets it taken away from him, then he finds a new plan to fix it again... while getting in his own way a lot. His back story was great but other than that, Kaladin just feels like he's kinda there. Which is why he's my least favorite. Everybody else at least feels like they have some relation to the story.
I knew people hated her but I wasn’t bothered enough by her in way of kings for that. Then her development in the next two books is so damn good. I fricken love her
@@ManCarryingThing I've always said, "Shall - in." Just fit the ring of how I said all the names, "Kahl - uh - din," "Dahl - in - arh," "Ah - duh - lin" (Idk how to type pronunciations) All kinda rhymed that way
Shallan was never falling in love with Kabsal. She even thinks to herself that she’s not that into him. But she knows he really likes her, so she’s basically just leading him on with all her flirtation. This was another reason why I didn’t like her. I actually started to like her in book 2, but then went back to disliking her in book 3 and now I dislike her even more after book 4.
Re-reading Stormlight has brought a new appreciation for Shallan. Maybe because it’s been 5 years since I started Stormlight initially. But at first I thought she was too much of a comedic character while trying not to be. But on my second re-read of the series, knowing the arcs has helped me enjoy her as a character, that ai find fun to read now.
Sanderson just cannot write women characters very well, it's not hos strength. However he will never be matched in worldbuilding, he is the master. Very good at character profiles too (not to be confused with characterization) and complex lore, easter eggs.
Shallan is one of my favorite characters in the books as well. In the first book, I just found her chapters fun and appreciated the shift in setting and viewpoint, providing a more thoughtful/educated view to contrast with Kaladan's limited, "I'm just trying to survive" one. Then in the second book, I was kept really entertained by Shallan having to bluff her way through her problems. Instead, Dalinar and Adolin were the ones that I initially disliked (until much later in the first book).
Old video, but here’s my two cents anyway. Shallan’s issue in book one is that she tries to be cute/clever ALL the time… it gets cringey and irritating. Also, as you said, we cut to her hanging in a library while Kal and Dalinar are in a war zone dealing with major events. So she’s a slightly annoying character that takes us away from where we want to be. My real issue with her is that when she reaches the war camps in book 2 the very first thing she does when interacting with Kal is to be a horrible person to him for really no reason other than to get a laugh out of someone she knows is unsavory at best. She could have disguised her identity and got into the camp, but being a bitch and taking a soldier’s boots just to show how above him she is? Sorry, lots a hate coming her way for that. She basically confirmed a lot of Kal’s negative thoughts towards light-eyes and she really had no reason to outside of trying to be a bad person. She comes across like a middle schooler, putting others down to make herself look/feel cooler. Not a good look. I really didn’t start to warm up to her until Oathbringer and then WoR. I get other people liking her before that (and still disliking her), but after her first meeting with Kal it took a long time before I was interested in her character. Even now, she’s only like my 5th or 6th favorite character.
She was my least favorite in WoK, but it was a close race, and I still liked her. She was one of my favorites in WoR I also liked her in Oathbringer But Shallan in RoW is driving me to distraction. I CANNOT stand her in RoW. Her behavior in early Part 4 made me stop reading out of frustration
Yeah, been trying to get into Way of Kings since I found out Sanderson had put the audiobook up on his UA-cam channel, and I have a hard to making it through the Shallan parts. They just really drag on without much of importance happening and I'm not sure why I should care.
I mean, one is a story of a boy that had everything taken away from him and had to find ways to survive and save other misfortunate souls from horrible fates. The other is a story of a rich girl that is afraid she will be less rich and thus has to go steal a thing. SHallan is an interesting character, but has a boring-ass arc in the first book.
except the second one is only what you are lead to believe at the start, and you learn that things are far darker on that storyline as well. The second I found out what her motivation actually was, I instantly found her to be the most interesting of the 3 big personalities in the book. I knew how each of the other two would react in a given circumstance, but she was/is far more unpredictable.
To be fair I actually think that’s what makes her character so interesting. Her motives are selfish and her methods are kinda rash but boy does she have guts.
@@smaug1234 Yeah, sure, later she becomes more interesting. But, then again, her story becomes slightly repetitive and feels like she is a fence sitter waay too much. IN four books her character just feels like a leaf caught in the wind of the story. Furthermore, first impressions are important. She starts off as a boring interruption to the story we want to read. It's hard to recover from that.
@@vladimirgertner3960 I think you underestimate the power a author has in leaving you in suspense. Kals story is not very exciting without the other story lines to break it up, its actually pretty depressing. To me one of the best things about the LOTR books over the movies is how Tolkien broke up the story telling. Getting the Aragon side first in the two towers and then leaving Frodo poisoned and captured in Mordor for the half of Return of the King was life changing when I read it back in the day. I guess I want more then a action story from a good Fantasy story . I want the great warriors, I want the grey characters, but mostly I want the bigger world. I have no idea how anyone could not like this character. That Shallan Davar is a great bunch of ladies if you ask me :)
@@smaug1234 I mean, enjoy her if you want. BUt as a person, she is annoying as all hell. And that's a big part of the problem. To each their own, but to the majority of the readers that i spoke to, Shallan is a person they would never even try to be friends with. Literally, if you met them in real life, the only likeable people in the books are Adolin and several bridge 4 members. as far as breaking up the action goes. I actually agree with you. It needs to happen from time to time. But it also needs to be done really insanely well for it to not annoy the readers. Furthermore, it needs to not happen all the time.
I personally really enjoyed Shallan’s apprenticeship under Jasnah in tWoK. So if anything, I would have anticipationspren when reaching a Shallan chapter.
I see what your getting at, but for me the character that holds the least interest is Dalinar, I get his importance and the drive he brings to the story, and appreciate it, but I don't relate as well as I do with other veiw points, probably because his character is aimed at an older age group (I don't think Brandon had 15 year olds in mind when he wrote it), but it might also be that I listen to the audiobook first and had it read for me, not having to plow through the less captavating chapters, and maybe I'm looking back at Shallans charactor and seeing her development throughout the series and not just the way she was in the way of kings
I’m only a few hundred pages into RoW, but I found myself doing double takes as I’ve been reading it regarding shallan. I thought we got the majority of her backstory from the second book as we learned about her dad and mom. And she finally accepted that then and yay progress!!! But apparently that was not all…? And I just got confused. It felt like this was just added into the fourth book as an afterthought. Don’t get me wrong- I’m excited to learn about it because I love shallan. But it just felt weird to me that we already delved deep into her backstory only to find out there is an entire part we haven’t even seen yet, if that makes sense. But I still love shallan and pattern lol. I love their cringe
Thank you for helping me understand my own feelings about this! I felt like kind of a dickhead for hating the only female protagonist in this book, but now I recognize that it wasn't her femininity that made me resent her.
Shallan and Kaladin are my favorite PoVs. Dalinar is third. As someone who can relate all too well to Shallan (Artist, DID, Scholarly mind) she was just so hard hitting for me. She is a great exemplification of a well written dissociative disorder character.
Shallan the insane and dangerous to herself and others, character. Sanderson makes her the great, lauded by all hero. What Brandon does is harmful. It misrepresents insanity as a helpful trait. He did this as well in "Legion." Something is really wrong with Sanderson's knowledge of mental illness. He thinks he is being helpful, but he is very sadly in very harmful error.
just finished way of the kings. and man, the chapters with shallan were just soooooooo boring. i don't necessarily hate her quips but am not fond of them either. As english is not my first language, i don't really get the humour of them too much. it's fine. i have heard that words of radiance is about her and it is really good. she is her best in this book. although i want to say can't wait to read it, i will wait. i am tired after reading this book. First time i experienced this. man, this book was slow and long.
Im not a fan of Shallan mostly because she’s fundamentally a bad person trying to accomplish her own selfish goals. She’s rude to people who aren’t helpful to her and even rude to some people who are helpful! And if she were a villain that would be fine but we treat her like a protagonist and we put her with Adolin who is WAY to good for her.
Granted, I've only read WoK and WoR, but how is she a bad person? She's deeply traumatised, and even though her plan to steal Jasnah's soulcaster is deeply, deeply, stupid, she does it to save her family from a horrific fate at the hands of their creditors. In the second book, she tries to convince the various caravans and bandits to work together, despite being able to easily win any fight with her shardblade. Then, she devotes herself to continuing Jasnah's life's work. I can't think of a single corrupt motivation (at least in the first two books) Shallan has. However, her style of humour is absolutely horrible.
@@mono90286 I don’t think she’s a villain, nor corrupt/evil/wicked. She’s not the antagonist, and compared to the family she came from she’s wonderful, I just don’t think she’s inherently a good person. I’m rereading the series now and I’m almost done with WOR again and she’s a better person than I had remembered but still more of an antihero than a genuinely good person.
@@ThePeterCompton Yeah, she's rude, she uses humour as a coping mechanism for trauma. But I don't see how she's just trying to "accomplish her own selfish goals". I can't think of a single example. Just because you don't like her doesn't mean she's a bad person (and I get why you wouldn't, some of her lines are just atrocious).
have you read oath bringer yet? I hate this character so much her chapters make me roll my eyes to the back of my skull no seriously I pause the audible to roll my eyes each time each time! lol
Haha, I got about halfway through but I'm taking a little break (too much stormlight all at once). I wonder if listening on audio adds to the annoyance? I've only read them physically
Holy shit I did too.. while every characters evolving into more and more interesting, shallan just disintegrating into something unrecognizable.. why should we care about her when even she doesn't like being shallan? It doesn't make sense that her spreen love lies yet shallan doesn't even know if she lied every time she turned into veil or radiant.. she doesn't have clarity.. the most important thing to have if you want to create perfect lies is to know the truth.. if shallan isn't who she really is, then who the hell is she?.. her internal conflict is so boring to read and if you remove her from the book it ain't gonna change a thing.. maybe her character will be better in the next book but by the time it comes, the damage's already been done.. her character is uninteresting for far too long..
@@rakatsceptic6379 TLDR: Shallan's steady decent into a bubbling mess of human IS her story "if Shallan isn't who she really is, then who is she?" Is exactly the point of her story arc up to Rhythm of War. From her introduction her entire life is a increasingly more intricate web of lies. Wether it's lying to the people on the ship about why she wanted passage, repeatedly lying to Jasnah about why she was their, lying to Tvlakav to get him to turn his caravan around, lying by omission to the thief woman who's name I forget (possibly Tyn), the creation of Veil and therefore the official start of her split personality disorder and of course lying to herself for years about her roll in the death of her parents and the collapse of her house. Shallan doesn't know who she is, she never did and when she tries to make a new identity for herself during the mission in Kholinar she gets several children killed which triggers her repressed memories to bubble to the surface causing a borderline mental breakdown.
@@matthewevans5486 like I said, her story is boring to read.. she did everything alone like it was her job to unveil the killing of Jasnah.. dude, her family is the most powerful people on Roshar and shallan can't even mentioned that she suspect an organization for the killing of their beloved princess? Her information is important to their survival, what if ghostblood wanted to finish dalinar instead after learning that he's close to unveiling the secret of the voidbringer? Or Navani, or Elhokar? Who's gonna stop an enemy they don't know existed?.. and after she joined the ghostblood, what did she learned from them that is so important to her, other than how his brother died? She doesn't even tell the others that one of the order of radiants still exist after all this time, lead by a herald.. does she think it's not important to share that secret in the middle of a fukking apocalypse? Tell Jasnah about it and try to make contact with them, it could be their best chance against odium.. so what the fukk is this girl's purpose in this story? Why is she so disconnected from other characters and the main plot? Who the fukk wants to read about a girl weeping everytime she make a bad decicion when it can be avoided by trusting others and involved in the fukking story?.. she's not complex with her identity crisis or self absorbed sense of righteousness, she's a boring character.. erase her from the book ain't gonna change anything significant to the story...
@@rakatsceptic6379 Shallan's first interaction with Dalinar and Navani was to to tell them about Jasnah's death. In fact it's literally the first thing she did (aside from her encounter with Kalladin) after entering the Warcamp. As for her not telling them it was specifically the ghost bloods that killed her, what exactly is she supposed to say? "Here is the name of the group that killed your daughter/niece, I know this because I met a con woman on the way here and happened to see a single span reed message that confirmed it"? Because without her infiltration of the Ghost Bloods that's all she has and seeing as they have people literally everywhere this comment would likely have lead to Shallan being watched very closely assuming that Dalinar and Navani didn't suspect her on the spot and possibly to Elokar's assassination being fast tracked. I disagree that she didn't do a great deal after the first book, she is integral to the infiltration of Kohlinar and the survival of Kalladin and Adolin when everything went sideways, was literally the only person that could find and figure out how to access Urithiru, helped convince Dalinar to push into the plains and planned and executed the capture of Sadeas' wife (even if she did die). She isn't a soldier, she isn't a scientist, she isn't a politician, she isn't even really a noblewoman despite her family technically being nobles.
I loved Shallan because she stood out like few other characters did. Just because a person is annoying sometimes, doesn’t mean they, as a character, are bad. If anything, it just makes them feel more realistic.
honestly, I welcomed the lower stakes in Shallan's WoK chapters. They felt like a break from the utter fucking misery that Kaladin (and Dalinar to a lesser extent) are going through for most of that book. I also found her quite funny, but I'm not sure how much of that was Brandon and how much of that was Kate Reading.
Same. i really like her in WoK. It's in books 2 and 3 that i really, really developed my dislike of her.
For sure, you don't need the world resting on your shoulders to be a compelling character
I like having the lower stakes breaks too. It heightens the utter peril and misery we witness with Kaladin’s chapters and treachery and intrigue of Dalinar’s. And there’s still stakes to Shallan’s narrative, I always assumed that Shallan would be punished mercilessly if she was caught.
I 100% agree with this. Without Shallan breaks, Kaladin's story would have started to get almost painful. As much as I would sometimes be frustrated that a Shallan POV would come right after a tense Kal cliffhanger, I am now thankful for them. I like Shallan and she prevented Kaladin burnout
I liked her more than Kaladin. I’d get pissed when we had to leave her to go listen to Kaladin’s ( dnd character esk) sad boy backstory. I love Kaladin, he is my boy, and cried for him multiple times but he was so depressing.
I’d read an entire book just about Shallan and Jasnah’s mentor scholarship time. It was my favorite part 👉👈
I liked the world building we got and Jasnah was super cool 😎
I mean it tho I could have spent 1,000 pages of Shallan learning scholarship
I've always liked Shallan, and after first hearing so many people express their distaste, I was a bit confused. I understand that especially in WOK she tries so hard with her humor but **Minor spoilers for WOR just in case** after we get her backstory in WOR, I think that her desperate humor is a way to bury her past. It's very common for people to hide their trauma with humor and I think Shallan eventually goes to that as her last resort of a 'lie'. So to me, the 'cringe' is a big part of her character development and is something she uses as a defense mechanism.
Agreed. I like her, maybe because I identify with her.
Maybe that explains a lot. 🤦♀️😑😬
I love Shallan's personality and attitude, but I wish there were more consequences to her humor. Like it's kind of a break of immersion that people don't get more pissed at her for her often insulting remarks. Haven't quite finished WOR yet but so far the only character we've seen that actually takes the expected level of offense at her shenanigans is Kaladin. Especially since Shallan constantly talks about how it's gonna get her in trouble in WOK and then it never gets her into trouble.
She is just soooo predictable and boring, seems like a woke feminism type archetype.
Spoilers book 1:
Lol the romance bit is so accurate. I was like "aww that's so cute, I ship it! Jam is cutesy and I want more of it" Then it's like "oh and by the way the jam thing was a murder weapon" I was shook
hahahah
I really liked that twist.
@@serrasedai Yeah! And it works so well because jam as a murder weapon is the last thing I would've thought of so it definitely surprised me
Technically the bread was the murder weapon, the jam was the cure :)
@@someguyschannel9976 I know but it was still a vital component of the "Breakfast basket of murder" that Kabsal had
I think Shallan suffers from what I'm gonna call Daenerys syndrome lol. She was such a divisive character in the Game of Thrones books/show because her story was happening so far away from the rest of the main cast (only connecting more directly way down the line). Another great video man, loving your work.
Great point, and thanks so much! Being far away from the main action must have something to do with it. Really, not till the second to last chapter do we get any insight into how they connect.
That's pretty astute. It's also that shallan being an idiot made everyone else seem like a bigger moron around her just like that for a moment when she got washed up shore. After all that, if you get over it and visualize that it's more than possible and see what she did ahead it's ok. Plus she is all about being disingenuous and has magic powers of deceptions and personal truths and lies
Exactly. Kaladin and Dalinar are giving us opposite perspectives of the Shattered Plains, and it's really interesting how those two plotlines contrast with each other. Meanwhile, Shallan's in Kharbranth, Jasnah's outshining her own plotline, and it isn't until the end of the book that they finally set off towards where the rest of the plot is.
But like, didn't ppl love Daenerys?? I remember waiting for her chapter to come in the books.
So it might not be just because of that but because she was far away from the story AND a bit boring.
@@shakira4223 you are correct. I think he means people don't like last season HBO Daenaries. Everyone dislikes that one.....
I think, in order for a character to be so *widely* disliked, there has to be a failure on multiple levels. Every single thing mentioned in the video and the comments are, by themselves, not failures. Even what I'm about to describe is, by itself, workable. But when you stack each tiny problem together, they cascade over themselves to create a character who is simply disliked with no clear reason why.
The thing that I think is slightly missing here is mention of the stakes whiplash within Shallan's own narrative. The video and many of the comments focus on how Shallan's plot is about "my family will be slightly less rich." What I got very clearly from the text was "If I don't get this soulcaster my family is going to be murdered by our political enemies." But we never see or feel those stakes until much, much, much later. Her initial arc in WoK is not about the soulcaster stealing plot, it's a teenage growing up plot, it's a girl coming to face with a kind of reality she's never had to deal with before plot, it's a girl emerging from trauma and finding enough of stability and strength to face where she came from plot. It's a going away to college plot, basically. And the soulcaster stealing plot is just the setup to that... Which feels *really* strange, considering the stakes of it are so high!
That whiplash gives an impression of a girl who is very "out of sight out of mind". Without the looming threat of her family staring her down, she feels the pressure of the existing circumstances. Totally normal for a teenage girl! Having been in slightly less high stakes situations where no one's future was on the line but mine, that's what I did. Bad freshman year decisions and all that. But... It's really hard to empathize with someone like that in the moment without thinking really hard about it. Especially in an epic fantasy book where the emotional journeys tend to get overlooked in favor of EPIC PLOT. (Even tho Sando like, outlined emotional journeys in BRIGHT NEON LIGHTS and stood on a chair going EMOTIONAL JOURNEY IS IMPORTANT TO THE CORE OF THE STORY.)
A lot of my personal reactions to Shallan are ultimately chalked up to, it was a very realistic depiction of a teenage girl awkwardly trying to fit herself into multiple boxes of other people's visions for her "self" before finally stepping into what she wanted to be for her own reasons. Been there, done that, hated it, it was very cringe and my fiancé was totally right in telling me she acted like me when I was younger.
She went from being a character I hated to a character I fell in love with right around when she reaches the warcamp. [Spoilers] Not because this is where she convenes with the other characters, but because this is the very first instance we see of her doing truly independent problem-solving: faced with hostile deserter soldiers trying to steal her stuff and run away, does she fight them like Jasnah or run away with the slaver she bullied into escorting her? No, neither, she empathizes with them, reassures them, and offers them a second chance. When trying to get into the war camp, does she stick with the lie fabricated for her by the woman she met on the road? Nope, she goes in with the truth: I'm Jasnah's ward, Jasnah is dead now, and I'm engaged to Adolin now, suck it. Faced with a complicated political situation between Dalinar and Sadeas, what does she do? Side immediately with Jasnah's family? No, she makes allies with a neutral character by social shaming him into housing her and giving her money. Wooing Adolin, does she act like the perfect noblewoman she has been educated to be? No, she asks him if he's ever pooped in his armor. All of these are clever, creative, and completely her own. They tell us something about who Shallan really is under the expectations people have piled onto her. She sees the best in people. She doesn't want to betray Jasnah's family, she wants to be a real part of it. She values her freedom to act and can pick up on very small, very nuanced social cues. She wants to be friends with Adolin and be genuinely intimate with him instead of having attraction tension like with Kaladin or elegant gestures like with Kasbal - she wants a real, long term relationship without even knowing that's what she wants. Those moments told me more about Shallan's character than the entire book before it did. And I like this Shallan. I want to read about *her*.
She went from my least favorite to like, top 3 alongside Rysn and Dalinar.
“I really like *this* Shallan.”
Too bad Shallan doesn’t like *this* Shallan.
Shallan is also in the unfortunate position of being in the same chapters as Jasnah Kholin, who is infinitely more intriguing and interesting. So not only are her chapters less interesting than Kaladin and Dalinar's action-packed sections, but even within her own chapters, she's not the most compelling character.
I think some of her parts should have been through Jasnah's perspective instead. We could have learned the same information about Kharbranth, Philosophy, and the parshmen, while spending a liiiiiittlee less time eating bread.
(Love your channel name, btw) Interesting point -- Jasnah's perspective would've meant an entirely different story (we'd be given access to WAY more information). I love Jasnah, but I also see why Sanderson started with Shallan, so we have a character capable of "discovering" info for the audience.
Fun fact: Jasnah was a POV character in the early version of WoK.
Agreed. I only cared about Jasnah for most of Shallan’s chapters and wanted to get more info from her. Couldn’t have cared less about Shallan.
Tbh I believe that some of the reason why Jasnah starts off so strong in this series as a character who, as you said, is "intriguing and interesting" is due in part to the fact that she has no POV
@@shewannawithout Honestly, that's exactly why I find Jasnah LESS interesting in the first book. Yes, she's more mysterious . . . because she's presented to us fully formed. She is an archetypal mentor character who mostly engages in dialogues with Shallan in a way that masks that their chapters are basically exposition dumps. The main thing that make her stand out is being a vocal atheist with a more tempered opinion on religion and god than most fictional examples.
What makes Kaladin, Dalinar, and Adolin, interesting is how they change over the course of the story. Kaladin overcomes his broken idealism. Dalinar struggles to recreate himself as a better man, while acknowledging his ugly past. Adolin matures, at least a bit, and comes to value the ways his father wants to resurrect.
Shallan also changes and develops, and I think she is interesting, but I think the dislike is not that her development is bad, her perspective parts just never quite hit it out of the park the way Kaladin or Dalinar's perspectives do. She seems less by comparison.
The most egregious sin Shallan does in my opinion is get praised by literally everyone.
Shallan- makes a stupid comments
Everyone around her- “HAHAHAHA, You’re SO WITTY!”
It’s so much telling with bad showing. We’re told over and over that she’s witty and bright but I never once got that impression.
It’s much better in the later books. I have come to love Shallan but the first two books were rough.
I mean, most of the people who say that are the dark eyes men on the ship and her brothers. Both of those make sense to me. Shallan is quite intelligent, and I suppose she is somewhat witty. Not only this, but to the uneducated dark eyes men, she probably seemed far brighter and more witty than she actually was because she's more educated than they are, and grew up in a more formal environment. Especially since she used lots of unnecessary words, is pretty, and talked so formally. Plus, these men likely want to impress and flatter her.
As far as her brothers go, *spoilers for WoR* they were in a situation where you could say they were in need of some humor. When you grow up in such an awful environment, you take what you can get.
Also, sorry for the late reply. I only just now realized thst this comment is a year old.
This pained me so much. The jokes weren't even funny. They were pedantic and annoying.
Honestly, I don't think I'll get around to book 3. I tried with book 2 so many times, and I could only finish it after I slept through a chapter or two in the audiobook.
Everyone except Jasnah who is the only person that puts her in her place.
I think Sanderson did that on purpose tho. Everyone simps for the bright eyes women, so they gonna laugh at every joke no matter how unfunny they are
Shallans story is alright. I just hate her personality. "Ho ho hoooo! I'm so smart and funny with my quick qwips that I have to point out everytime! No one gets me because I'm such an intellectual."
I think it's a very good personality that shows how people react and cover up having a violent and abusive childhood.
@@CobaltContrast it’s not so much the concept as the execution. There’s a scene in WoR where kaladin and shallan are bantering and it’s pretty badly written, like a teenager’s attempt at writing sarcastic humor. I think that’s where the criticism comes from.
Just here to point out (8 months later) that 70% of Sanderson's smart characters act like this. At least she isn't Wax....so annoying....
@@justsomeguywithsunglasses8418 Come on, Wax is awesome and his humor is on point 😀
@@AerielTWG He is literally the personification of marvel-style quips.
I actually liked Shallan in the Way of Kings. It was Words of Radiance when I started getting really annoyed with her. Her back story is interesting, but I hated how, in the first half of words of radiance, things went her way so easily - to the point where she became almost Mary Sueish. *she also seemed snobby and uppity towards Kaladin who is considered lower class than her. I’m actually surprised Kaladin liked her in WoR because she seemed to embody a lot of what he disliked in light eyed upper class people. Sigh. I’m halfway through RoW and she’s more tolerable except the dissociative disorder thing is dragging on a bit
tell me about it, when I get to her parts I put the speed on x1.4
and when I read I just read the begining of each paragraph until some key words catch my eye
you would surprised how long and repetitive her internal dialogue is
I would go like a page and a half of self pity before we get a developement
also while we are at (sorry lol)
the love triangle was one of the most meaningless shits in the series and I just can not get myself to understand it
or at least understand the way it ended
why have it in the first place
My thoughts exactly.
RoW is currently my least favorite iteration of her. I swear I would have thrown the book out the window if she broke her oaths and turned Pattern into a deadeye.
Finally someone who likes Lift as much as I do
I've only read Way of Kings but I don't hate Shallan. I actually really enjoy her character. That might change, but I find her story to be interesting and it's refreshing to read her chapters amongst all the war/guts/glory of all the other POVs.
Glad to hear you like Shallan! Her story in WoK is definitely more of a Mystery genre, and I totally get how her chapters are a welcome relief for some. I think you'll love her character even more when you read WoR (I definitely did).
I have to say, I'm glad to find that I'm not alone in my frustration with Shallan. Way of Kings wasn't so bad for me personally. However, i was very frustrated with her for a significant portion of RoW. I know she will eventually get her shit together, but it's just frustrating waiting on her to do so lol.
This.
I mostly agree. I'm going through RoW right now. It's like, I love Shallan, but why are we here again?? I thought we were over the whole "Shallan has a dark past that she needs to confront," it was kind of the whole plot of WoR.
Anyway, I trust Brandon, I'm sure it will pay off, but it is frustrating. Pls don't spoil anything, I haven't finished RoW yet!
I actually liked Shallan up until the split personalities stuff. And then added onto it is yet another “Oh wow I’m just remembering this important part of my life that reshapes how we view my character” moment which makes it the third in the series.
@@jonathanechevers6265 Im reading RoW rn and I would be alright with Shallan dealing with her dark past if we didn't have Oathbringer bring all of Dalinar's war crimes and everyone found out and Dalinar is doing fine lol
Personally I don't think there's anything wrong with Shalan's story arc/gravity. I just would NOT like to hang out with her.
My problems with Shalan:
1) She thinks she's waay funnier/smarter than she actually is.
2) Her problems come off as very self-absorbed. Kal and Dal's issues deal with the fate of others, but a lot of Shal's story is how she wants to be liked..
3) There's more than a bit of Mary Sue in her story. She just is smart and figures things out that seems like it would've been done by someone else in those situations (ie realizing the slow extinction of chasm fiends in WoR). And though she makes mistakes, none of them have long term consequences.. Kal trusts Moash which brings a bunch of turmoil. Dal trusts Sadeus bc of his visions and ens up losing most of his army. Shal dates an assassin, steals something priceless, later causes the deaths of people - but she always ends up fine and unaffected very shortly thereafter.
I like enough of her to not hate her, but I'd find fake reasons to avoid her company if I knew her irl...
Shallan's dialogue sometimes came across like an intellectual reddit bro trying too hard, my main pain point. The only sanderson character that's gotten on my nerves.
Two years late to this party, but I just finished my reread of 1-3, and now am 60% through 4, so here we go.
I am in the "I strongly dislike Shallan" category, and she is my least liked lead of all leads in ANY Sanderson book, and only partially for the pacing and structure reasons you laid out here. I also went into this with my friend LOVING Shallan, and just didn't get why I hated her, and continue to hate her more and more as the story goes.
One, her personality, and the cringe. She's a deeply insecure person who covers up her insecurities with bad humor and making fun of others, often with extra words in order to make the person feel dumb and insecure and herself feel smarter. Which she then feels bad about but doesn't change or work on that. For my first read, she came off as a bully, but thinks herself in the right because she's funny and doing it for her family. The more we get into her split personalities the more she feels fake and like her entire existence is a lie. Its *not* DID, because she is making a VERY conscious choice to compartmentalize her emotions and personas. These are personas, not alters.
Two, priorities. She's on this steal the soulcaster mission for her family, but doesn't actually seem to have any drive in her actions, and what she focuses on is never what she should be. She needs to steal the Soulcaster, but meanders endlessly, slacks at her duties, draws, and dallies with the scribe. While the romance plotline could have been cute, I read it as a distraction against her goal and her family, a wasteful indulgence that actively got in the way of her plans. She gets to the warcamps and has the most PAINFUL courtship with Adolin, putting on a show and it felt like she was leading him on. Meanwhile she spends two books mooning after Kaladin, which felt more honest but still toxic as hell. Then the plotline was just dropped without a solid resolution at the end of Oathbringer. She NEVER stopped putting on a show for Adolin, and I hated to see it.
Three, skillset and *luck*. Her major talent is art, and that's fine, and I enjoyed how that translated into her lightweaving skills. But otherwise, she basically stumbles into sucess after sucess in manipulating, spying on and controlling the people around her, that always felt unearned. She had very little training and practices those skills much less than other cast members. That lack of experience then highlighted to me her ineptitude and how her successes felt like "because plot and luck." Unlike every other character, she never makes terrible mistakes that bite her where it hurts or faces the consequences of her desisions. We saw this where Jasnah just happens to check on her and read the letter, and was impressed by the fact that she's self taught, but then NEVER takes her studies with Jasnah seriously after the fact. She cons Sabariel into taking her on as a ward, cons her way into the Ghostbloods, cons herself into controlling a group of bandits, without any hiccups or major threats along the way. A problem that will follow her throughout the series. By contrast, we get Kaladin and Dalanar making progress, then a single decision made in good faith that nearly gets them and everyone they love killed. Repeatedly.
The only times I can think of where her choices came back to bite her are when she was officially recruited into the Ghostbloods against her will, and when the kid in Kholinar died because she was giving him food. In the scope of the series, it's pretty weak.
I find that characters sucking at what they do but are accidently successful is a thing I detest in any media. The same friend who got me reading Stormlight and loves Shallan also LOVES Isekai anime, for which characters waving thier hands and oops, im now the most powerful person on the planet. is a genre staple. I HATE Isekai anime for this same problem. I wonder if this is a trend.
Long rant not withstanding, I don't HATE her. But I don't enjoy reading her.
Perfect summary. It irritated me so much I dropped the series. Her character could work but the way the world bent around her to conform to her whims was the frustrating part. Too many characters adore her despite her insufferable attitude. She specializes in deception/illusions which is fine but no distinction is made between illusion and reality. If her strength is in illusion then her weakness should be the disconnect between illusion and reality. An impressive figure built on foundations of sand is a very interesting concept but not explored with her character at all.
(Rhythm of war spoilers if you haven't finished it yet) No bad decisions that come back to bite her? did you forget about how her whole character arc is about dealing with the fact that she murdered her parents and broke her oath? 😭 Honestly, this feels like such an unfair characterization towards Shallan, especially the part about her "stumbling into success after success" and it being plot and luck. I think you misunderstand what "success" is for these characters. You could say the same thing about Kaladin, that he's just an op isekai type self-insert who's always the best soldier and beats foes that have hundreds of years of experience on him despite being a random 20 year old with relatively very little training. But obviously that's not what "success" is for him, his real struggle is overcoming the fact that no matter how good he is, he'll never be able to save everyone. The same way, getting into the ghostbloods or becoming Jasnah's ward are simply plot devices, while Shallan's real "success" is to be able to live with the things she has done and overcoming her repressed memories. Also, leading Adolin on? My brother in christ they are married 😭 Anyways, thanks for coming to my ted talk if you actually read all this lol, it's fine to not like Shallan because of her corny jokes or because you don't find her relatable but I thought some of these points were really biased
@Jay Drawz this comment right here is why I hate talking to people about any problems I have with a character that happens to be female. Way too many people online these days that'll immediately jump to "oh, is that because you actually just hate women?" No, I just have problems with a character that happens to be a woman. People need to stop jumping to that conclusion in bad faith.
One of my big problems with Shallan is that she seems to be written as an extreme unconfident character, constantly using quips to put others down and make herself seem better than she actually is, and nobody calls her out on it or decides to put this no name teenage girl running her mouth in her place.
That and her needing 2000+ pages to finally come to a decision on the love triangle doesn't help, especially because her opinions on Kaladin or Adolin don't change
I think you nailed it when you mention how the Kaladin and Dalinar chapters feel more exciting and engaging and changing the focus to Shallan felt like a speed bump. Shallan's stakes felt so much lower, and that made her portions of Way of Kings feel like commercial breaks. In Rhythm of War, I feel like it's the other way around and I'm more interested in Shallan than Kaladin. Also her love triangle plot really rubbed me the wrong way.
Haha commercial breaks is the best way to put it!
I don’t like that Shallon never suffers the extent of the consequences of her actions. She steals the soulcaster, then fucks up and loses it. Logically, she should lose Jasnah’s trust and her brothers. This is where I was most intrigued. Then, she loses neither…because she has plot armor. Even if Jasnah takes her back in, I would’ve expected more reservations, cold shoulders, etc. Jasnah doesn’t care about her betrayal at all. Later, when Jasnah dies, and she loses all political backing, somehow! Somehow her brothers were fine the entire time. In between her leaving and the ghost bloods scooping them up, it’s been something like a year and a half. Her brothers should be long dead. Or at least, tortured and run down. Instead, she gets to forget about them while she goes on little missions and dating the prince. She doesn’t even seem that sad with the knowledge her family is fucked. She can still study chasmfiends all bubbly and happy.
Which is my second problem with her. I get that Shallon deals with emotions through suppression, but that doesn’t translate well narratively. It feels like she just doesn’t care. Jasnah dies, and she pushes it down. Her brothers are probably dying, forget and move on. She gets the kid killed in Kholinar, put into Veil and forget. Every time something bad happens, she gets better in a day. Kaladin’s still moping about some kid he couldn’t save years later. Shallon doesn’t even think about the kid she killed in all of RoW. This makes her story feel somewhat superficial. Someone who’s unnaturally happy when those around them are hurt because of them feels calloused and selfish.
To return to the first point, she doesn’t get the consequences of her actions in many little ways as well. No one seems appropriately offended by her quips, even though they’re both improper and hurtful. Even Lopen! Even Lopen has to acknowledge he is mean sometimes and swear an oath against it. But somehow Shallon doesn’t. The only one who seems offended is Kaladin, but by insulting him a few more times he turns around and admits she had it worse all along. Even though she wouldn’t survive a day on the bridge crews and I would honestly like to see that happen. Let Shallon be a slave for once and see the people she mocks for being Bridge Boys.
She also manages to get so much success with absolutely minimal expertise. She learns conning for like a week, then successfully cons the entire royal court, the high princes, deserters, the ghost bloods, and in a month she’s teaching others how to spy. Really? Her claim to fame is lightweaving. She shouldn’t know how to spy. I’d like to see her fail at acting a few times. When she stabs her hand, I want to see her break character and cry, because she hasn’t sustained that level of injury in her life! It’s absolutely immersion breaking that she just can, without ever learning. I’d like to see her trick the deserters, who then turn on her because many of them are actually murderers and the worst of men. I’d like to see her not be able to keep her promise to them, given she has minimal political power in the beginning. It seems wrong that Shallon’s word weighs more than the law, when people like Gaz have ruined the lives of hundreds like Kaladin.
I know this comment is months old, but I found it funny you calling attention to her plot armour and lack of failure… when her character arc has consistently trended down within each book and across the series
She never fails… but she’s still broken, untrusting and getting worse.
She’s not succeeding. She’s unravelling
The small successes you argue should be important are largely irrelevant to her story and to the story at large.
The more we seem to learn about Shallan, the more withdrawn her perspective becomes. She went from being a young newly freed teen on a daring quest in a whole new world all the way to an unstable and untrusting assassin willing to kill members of her new radiant family
@@MAORIguy25 And this is why I like Shallan less and less as the books go on. I actually loved her in the first two books. Really started disliking her in Oathbringer. She is regressing, getting worse and worse. Unraveling as you put it. To me, this progression doesn't really make sense. It feels kind of forced. Everyone is nice to her and likes her and wants to help her. Everyone gives her second, third, fourth chances. She has not one, but two super hot magical men lusting for her for seemingly no reason. It honestly makes no sense that either Kaladin or Adolin would want her, but the forced love triangle is there anyway.
everything kind of gets better for her, but she gets worse and worse anyway. I don't really get it and it definitely makes her feel unlikable. Ashame, because again I really enjoyed her in the first two novels. I basically wanted to skip every Veil chapter in Oathbringer.
@@LC-wv7tz I mean, spoilers, it does make sense if oaths and spren are important
She committed an unspeakable act, which echoes wrongs of the past.
Through her, they can find a new way to deal with the fall out
So her character arc has larger considerations than just assuming some hero journey path
She did to her spren something no one should’ve been able to do. And her slide downwards is merely her resetting, because everything before now was just the mask of someone terrible either hiding from the pain of their crime, or someone trying to stay alive after they’ve sacrificed the most important thing to them
I really enjoyed Shallan’s chapters in WoK, because I felt like she was the most relatable character coming from an outsider perspective. Kaladin and Dalinar are already so entrenched in their own stories that it’s unrealistic for them to muse about the political and cultural states of foreign countries. Shallan, on the other hand, is a great character through which to gain a baseline understanding of Roshar as a whole. Sure, Kaladin’s storyline is infinitely more interesting than “Shallan ate some bread,” but I still learned so much more about Roshar from Shallan’s perspective, rather than from Kaladin’s or Dalinar’s.
It wasn’t until Oathbringer that Shallan REALLY started getting on my nerves.
listen, i feel like this is as good a place as any to lay out my grievances with shallan. first off, i actually liked her in WoK. i didn’t like her chapters as much as kaladin’s obviously, but that wasn’t her fault - very few characters could hold their own against him. but no, where i started to dislike shallan was in WoR, and it just went downhill from there. i’ll try to sum it up in these points:
1) she gets everything she wants. like, 90% of the time things work out for her. when she stole jasnah’s soulcaster, there were no consequences and jasnah agreed to just train her anyway and not be mad. when she stumbles alone into a group of slave merchants in the woods, she just orders them around and talks down to them, and instead of r***ing, robbing and killing her, they literally switch directions and head back the way they’d just come to bring her to the shattered plains. when she gets there, she’s worried about fitting in, but it doesn’t actually matter because adolin instantly clicks with her and sebariel just goes along with her desperate gamble and offers a large salary and place in his house to this random girl he’s never met. it just goes on and on - she orders people around and people leap to obey her, forgive her, or whatever. VERY rarely do we ever see her plans backfire, the way we do with kaladin or dalinar.
2) i HATE the way she treats adolin. and yeah, all their scenes together are horribly cringe, but that’s not even what i’m talking about. from the second half of WoR (when she spends a few days in the chasms w kaladin) up until the end of OB when they get married, shallan is kind of awful to adolin. she’s constantly staring at kaladin, flirting with him, drawing him, and as we find out towards the end of OB, she’s not subtle about it because adolin has clocked it many times. that’s just so disrespectful to me and personally destroyed any “cuteness” they might have had. at one point in OB they literally go from having a heart to heart together where shallan is confiding all of her mental struggles to adolin, and in the next scene they’re walking up to kaladin and shallan stops to admire him with adolin right there, and she says “i need to draw that”. like COME ON girl, have just one OUNCE of respect.
3) she simply can’t take responsibility for anything. this sort of ties back to the last point, but it’s bigger than that too. this girl, for the life of her, cannot say the words “i’m sorry, that’s my fault, i shouldn’t have done that.” most notably it happens at the end of OB during the scene where adolin confronts her about lusting after kaladin. instead of being like “i’m so sorry, i just got confused, please forgive me, it’s you i actually want to be with”, her reaction is basically “adolin you’re being so stupid right now. you think just because i shoot him longing glances, i’d actually want to sleep with him?? don’t be an idiot. i mean, my alter ego veil kind of wants to sleep with him, but i’ve got her under control so you really have no reason to be mad at me.” this scene genuinely made my blood boil. not to mention the fact that she NEVER has a conversation with kaladin where she apologizes for leading him on or flirting with him or confusing him. she just kind of acts cute and flirty with him one moment and then makes out with adolin so he gets the message that it’s never gonna happen. nice. and unfortunately her character suffers from this perpetual “nothing is my fault” sort of attitude. yes, she blames herself for killing her parents, but that is unfortunate too because it’s basically the only time her character takes responsibility for anything throughout the series, and her main growth as a character is to try to NOT blame herself for those things. which is frustrating for someone who wants her to grow into taking accountability for stuff. obviously i don’t WANT her to blame herself for her parents deaths, but i don’t want to read a storyline of her learning to take LESS accountability for her actions.
4) her storylines are really repetitive at this point. i mean, her plot in the first book was just kind of dull. in the second book, she had secret memories she was repressing even from herself, that were threatening to damage her mentally. in the third book, she invented new personas to further deflect blame off of herself for things (esp the whole “it’s just veil that likes kaladin” thing), and try to deal with these new painful memories. in the fourth book, she had secret memories that she was repressing even from herself, that were threatening to damage her mentally, AND she’s dealing with the different personalities at the same time!😦 like, it’s just so removed from the main meat of the story, and it gets really repetitive to watch her fight back painful memories for 4,000+ pages at this point. i just don’t want to read her chapters.
5) i just don’t like her. sorry, this is more subjective, but as some other people have said in the comments, her personality is just grating. she’s pretty rude to kaladin often for no reason, she’s extremely condescending towards adolin (which is ironic because when they first met i remember adolin being happy that she ‘never made him feel stupid’ and yet half her lines to him at this point start with “no, dear,” or “adolin you are such a fool!”) she treats everyone as if they should bow down to her, and yet she’s constantly whining about how “she’s not good enough” or “she’s a horrible person” but never does anything differently. every character around her bends over backwards to try to make her happy and okay, and she takes it almost completely for granted (except for adolin, where she does have a couple *rare* moments of realizing he’s too good for her). just overall her whiny and entitled personality doesn’t do it for me.
soooo yeah that’s an extensive list of why she doesn’t work for me. by the end of OB i hated her so much that i was tempted to just read everyone else’s chapters and read summaries of her chapters instead. i genuinely had to take a ✨rage break✨ after her conversation with adolin about kaladin towards the end. it’s safe to say that i will be trying to read as little of her character as possible upon any rereads of the series, and i’m honestly sure that it won’t change too much of the overall plot if i just ignore her entirely.
wait people hate shallan? man i love her. she's probably the most relatable character for me.
I think you may want to see a therapist
@@darthkaithebold5151 LOL
I enjoyed Shallan parts of narration too! I think it depends on ones personality.. Likes and dislikes.
Anyway its good to enjoy different flavors in book than be choosy and grumpy abt it..
Agreed! She’s the biggest Bad A$$ out of everyone! No one has been through what she has yet she conquers every challenge thrown at her with undaunted determination. Plus she comes with the best one liners! Anyone who hates Shallon has a few rocks in their head. Or possibly doesn’t understand the subtle nuances of her character;)
@@ptuna861 Okay I agree Shallan's life is pretty fucked up. But I wouldn't say its objectively worse than Kaladin's. The dude's brother was killed because his father wanted to ensure that he, kaladin, had a bright future.
And then kaladin was enslaved and (essentially) tortured just for doing the right thing (giving up the shards and trying to save his men).
So I'm probably in the minority because when I read The Way of Kings, I loved Shallan and her arc, but I disliked her character in Words of Radiance a lot. It is probably because Shallan doesn't know who she is, and now in Oathbringer she keeps using her personas as a defense mechanism. I'm still in the middle of Oathbringer, but I'm interested to see how Shallan will grow until the end of the series
you and me both. though at this point she is my 2nd most disliked character. i'm current at the time of writing this, which is RoW
@@brandond2768 so I finished Rhythm of War a while ago and she's at the same spot to me lol she just loses to Moash as my least favorite character
@@helewis mine is actually Lift XP
it's not that i don't think that she is well written, she is. I just do NOT like child characters. at all. So you can imagine how much i like a character that reacts very much like an actual child. Shallan drives me crazy because she kind of devolves into very child like behavior.
@@brandond2768 omg I feel yooou, I kind of forgotten about Lift to be honest... she's really the type of indifferent character to me, though I like it better when she's not on the pages lol. But I agree with what you said about both of them
My problem with Shallan is mainly because Sanderson makes the characters that interact with her look stupid and petty whever she has a scene with the other main cast.
Like for example in WoR in the chasms Kaladins racist remarks were VERY FORCED imo. That made him look like a complete ass and petty infront of her so she could repremand him or one up herself to Kal. Sanderson would make Adolin also look like doofus in front of her so that she could look more mature.
And her multiple personality disorder also seems forced as hell.
It's honestly kinda funny seeing so many people wanting her chapters over quick to see Dalinar/Kaladin in WoK, when for me I wanted to get back to Shallan ASAP during their chapters xD. I eventually grew to like those 2 a ton more, but Shallan will always be my favourite with how mystery focused her chapters are + her super underrepresented mental issues
I kind of skipped her chapters and read them after it all... It was the worst decision ever....I bored myself even more and was just begging myself to read faster and skip some parts because I wanted to go on the next book. And than her progress was even worse than the first book. I don't like her even now. Not that she is bad character, she is just uninteresting character that everyone in the book likes for no reason
I'm reading twok atm and I adore her chapters because it means it's Jasnah time
This is exactly how I feel. Shallan chapters have always been my favourite, especially in WOR
At the end of part one I was like : "hey I'm really starting to like shallan" and then part one endend and I didn't see her again for hundreds of pages. I was de bit disapointed.
Same! The back cover promises us four main characters, but in the end, Szeth has almost zero screen time and Shallan also has very little. Those were the two most intriguing characters for me, so being stuck in the head of a depressed guy getting more depressed or a guy who thinks he's crazy but very obviously isn't was frustrating to me and made way of kings my least favorite in the series.
I am re-reading the series and am about halfway done with Oathbringer. The thing that annoys me most about Shallan is how she internalizes most of her development. It sorta takes place only within her own head, Pattern is there too of course. This kinda makes it feel like the plot doesn't need her. I also hate how the, seemingly obligatory, love triangle is forced on her, as tends to be the case for female characters.
Shallan is like the Scrappy Doo of the Stormlight Archives
hahahaha
Well put. 😆
She's kind of annoying, but I can see why she would hold the viewpoints that cause her annoying behaviour.
Then I reread up to pg. 757 of Oathbringer (mild spoilers obviously).
She literally blames the slaves who will be executed for escaping for being too stupid or lazy to escape from arrow fodder duty in order to defend her own group of deserters-turned-guards, despite the fact that one of her guards is part of why they had such horrific conditions. She's always bought way too heavily into the 'light/darkeyes' power dynamic for my liking, but this takes the cake and shits on it.
I haven't read Rhythm of War yet, but at this point I'd be happy if it was 1000 pages of Shallan facing the consequences of her bullshit.
OATH BRINGER SPOILERS HAVENT FINISHED IT BUT LETTING YOU KNOW. READING AUDIBLE SO IM IN SHADESMAR BUT DONT KNOW WHAT PAGE THAT IS BUT WELL OVER 800.
I AGREE! SHE NEVER FACES THE CONSEQUENCES! Literally whit saved her and if you read the audible in that chapter after the orphan gets killed she literally only spends 2 minutes dealing with what she did while every other character takes at least 4 chapters to deal with what they have done. and whit was way to captain save Shallan for my damn liking. he's not usually this helpful to any other character and frankly its really irritating that two white characters are talking for two whole chapters. like shut up. and whit didn't help kelsier that much in mist born book but all of a sudden he's caping for ms Shallan. even Dalinar he gave him quick advice and told him he's not who he is looking for. im gonna do a video on this because I really feel strongly that she is giving off victim vibes. and she IS NOT SUFFERING FROM depression Kaladin is! She runs her mouth eveytime and is a sh!t starter but can never back it up hell she can't even run without stormlight like girl come on what are you doing? she is the worst Adeline is dumb as hell for her.
@@Daleanaaa Um first Wit helps everyone in the stormlight archive to the same amount (maybe not dalinar but kaladin and shallan get very similar scenes between them). Shallan has never played victim at all, hell a big part of her thing in WoR is that she always locks away her trauma and people who know about it are quite frankly impressed that she keeps it all in, compare to Kaladin who wallows in them (not his fault kinda how depression works), or dalinar, who literally was a tyrant who performed massacre and suffering from PTSD, runs away from it with alcohol (kinda how PTSD works). She has been designed to not go into depression but disassociate her personality. Her consequences are random blackouts, and lack of control of her personas.
Wow I’m going to have to go back and read this, that sounds messed up
Wait, remind me, what are you referring to here?
@@AB-dm1wz sorry, I thought it was clear, possibly the page numbers are different in other editions.
When they are in Kholinar, she blames Kaladin's men for their own suffering as bridgemen and says they're too stupid to not run at arrows, despite the fact that they will be executed for refusing to run. Plus all the injustice involved in the bridge slave system in the first place, and she uses it to defend her own people, which includes Gaz who enforced the hellish conditions they were under.
It's even worse when you consider that three of them are currently protecting her and have just flown her across nations.
And Adolin, who apparently is supposed to look out for the little guy, ends up stopping Kaladin from calling Shallan out on this blatant victim blaming, and it's never brought up again.
2 of the main characters have major consequences for their actions in a logical progression.
Shallan steals the soul caster, and gets an apprentice ship from Yazna, who it has been established would never take such a thing lightly. Shallan also gets kalladins boots by being an annoying pompous ass.
Kalladin is established as not being the type to bend the knee, even to high ranking people. It even explicitly states that he knows shallan is bull sh*ting him.
I don't dislike her because her parts are slow, I dislike her because she is marry sue adjacent to the point of screwing with other characters personalities.
Yeah, especially with Kaladin's 'wow she's suffered so much more than me at least my parents love me' thing. No Kaladin you were on the fucking bridge crews having everyone you love die over and over again, don't beat yourself up for not being as 'broken' as Shallan.
@@catlover-fp5ig Thank You, I swear to God, she just gets more and more obnoxious each book.
@@catlover-fp5ig I feel like Kaladin had a better life for the first 15 years or so, but after that he quickly caught up with her.
Spoilers:
I enjoyed Shallan in the beginning, actually, and in words of radiance. I was okay with her in oathbringer. But in Rythym of war, she is by far my least favorite character of the book due to her regression, that to me, seemed to just come out of nowhere. I thought in Oathbringer she made progress to not regress into her other personalities, but in Rythym of War she went completely the opposite way. I was also annoyed with this for Kal, it just feels like the same stuff over again, but it felt different for him somehow. I just hope it doesn't happen again.
I thought the exact opposite in OathBringer, that is the book where she really start to see her really regressing into her personalities.
Rhythm of war frustrated me by pretending that Pattern may be a traitor and that formless could take over, then you don't see Shallan at all for hundreds of pages, and then it turns out that neither of these are a problem actually.
For some reason Shallan’s chapters were my favorites, and I was really bummed out when the book took a break from her for like 150 pages. For me it was just really uninteresting to follow these super angsty strong warriors constantly going ”woe is me!,” and Shallan broke that off.
Same here, she always seemed like a more light-hearted break from the angst. I also just love her philosophy talks with Jasnah.
Old comment but I totally agree. I loved the world building and her sense of humor, and imo it was a necessary change of pace from Kaladin constantly getting kicked into the dirt over and over again. Shallan was my favorite main character from her introduction tbh
Only person in these comments that I've found echoing something that I had a problem with in Kaladin's chapters. This is a long book and there's only so many times that I can hear Kaladin mope after a major victory because he can't save everyone. It's realistic in most places but some of the chapters it would follow right after he saved a bunch of lives and instead of pressing forward we need to read a whole chapter of him being angsty before he bucks up and decides on what to do next in the final sentence.
Some of her backstory in Words of Radiance made me cry
it was very well done
Same here
Shallan and the interludes certainly work better is subsequent readings/listening. On first run I can see how it can be frustrating. Oddly enough I personally don't remember being annoyed by anything other than a trip to a different place in Oathbringer. I will be getting to my second listen of that section very soon and I will see if I find it as annoying
When my Fiance was reading WoK, she really had the opposite reaction to Shallan. She doesn't really care about the punching and the stabbing, but the intrigue, drama and mystery of Shallan and Jasnah had her gripped. So much so that when she learned part 2 didn't have *any* Shallan she had to take a break from the book.
Seeing Shallan's name absent from part 2 was a light punch in the gut for me as well
Shallan was my favourite character in the way of kings. If Kaladin's chapters were like a desert, Shallan's were like oases (and Dalinar's were like asphalt).
Don't misunderstand me, I liked the book, but reading about Kaladin's depression wasn't actually enjoyable in a certain sense. Shallan's chapters were so fresh and easy to read, I was always hoping the next one was hers.
When you said "the elephant in the room" I thought it was going to be the fact that she's the major female lead of the series and the other two leads are very angsty men. I see the pattern a lot in fandom spaces that major female characters are judged more harshly. Back in like 2008 people would watch ATLA and then go on forums to complain that Katara was annoying.
It's particularly noticeable when you have a main character who presents as very feminine. Often the traits people complain about are gender tinged. Talks to much, is annoying, too emotional, too weak, etc.
If there's a female support character that is seen as more "strong" or androgynous or not demure/feminine, then that character is often propped up.
GoT: Everyone loves Arya and Brienne, but it takes 4+ seasons for people to stop being impatient with Sansa
ATLA: During the show's run, Toph was constantly praised by fans and Katara often criticized
Way of Kings: Independent powerful Jasnah is so cool and Shallan is so annoying
People used to go off about Hermione Granger back in the day too.
Shows and series that start with a female as the central protagonist can usually bypass this (but not always), but if there's an ensemble or small group of main characters, the feminine one is usually going to be dumped on by fans.
Interesting observation
I’ve always thought Shallan’s arc in TWOK was a little more like a coming of age story. I think people who don’t like/can’t relate to those type of stories would understandably find her annoying and naive
I have never, literally not once, seen anyone critise or express their dislike of Katara. People love that character (as do I). I think people moreso gravitate to characters that have agency and try to do things. Sansa for example is mainly a victim, just trying to survive, which I find compelling but I can also understand why people don't like the character as much since she cannot express as much personality. IDK if I would throw this all on misoginy. Just in general your examples seem kinda weak, as in my experience all of those, except maybe Sansam, are all very well liked characters.
Thank you!!!
@@michielmanders9766 nah I’ve seen tons of Katara hate tbh. People whine about how she’s always hung up on her mother, she’s a Debby downer, she’s the least interesting character in the Gaang, etc. I’m not saying it’s all misogyny, but there is definitely a pattern I’ve noticed. At the very least she is nowhere near as popular as Toph
"what the hell? Why do people hate Shallan" finally someone who understands me, she doesn't deserve all this hate 😭😭
It's not that i hate her, as a character. Her chapters are just not as good overall.
@@TomFromMars that's a valid opinion, even if I disagree. There are genuinely tons of people out there who do hate her tho :(
@@ElijahStormblessed imo it's a little silly to hate on a character. I mean, she's not real, she's just a character. A not very well written one, but that's no fault of her. And i don't hate on Brandon either, by the way. I genuinely think he is one of the best, if not the best contemporary author. The whole Stormlight archive series has been a blast so far. But Shallan's chapter are not on par with the rest. She feels like a Wheel of Time character: driven by the plot instead of driving it.
I reaally liked her in the first 3 books, but in the 4th book I got really tired of her 3 different personalities talking to each other and it just kept going on and on.. maybe thats just me
@@RobinsMusic I think a big part of this was due to Brandon putting in the effort to give some good DID representation through Shallan's system, and from what I've heard it sounds like he did a pretty good job of it :)
My issue with shallan comes from how she has deployed, shallan book 1 was fantastic imho. I apppreciated her slow and methodical approach but her young adult way of being impulsive.
What I don’t like is how in the newer books she has changed so much especially the introduction of the “others” I hate how her and the others affect her relationships.
I'm with you. I loved Shallan as a character basically until Oathbringer. Every other character seems to be progressing, overcoming. Shallan just gets worse and worse it seems. It's kind of sad, but it's also confusing. I don't get it. She has friends, allies, confidants, etc. It feels forced.
She is great for world building, that's the ting I appreciate her for. When she doesn't have something to help world build I'm not a fan normally
I agree Shallan's curiosity about the ecology of Roshar helped pull me into WoK the first time, and since Shallan's arc became the Ghostbloods arc. While improving the stakes and pacing for her chapters, I miss the worldbuilding/exposition of this strange planet. I was happy to see it return in her sketches of the spren in ROW.
She's not my least favorite character, thanks to Moash. I was on the fence about her after the first book. Her chapter were interesting enough, though not as much as Kaladin's and i liked the romance scenes. In the second book, i enjoyed the part were she disguises her identity and so on. Though, again, at the same time, things were moving much faster for every other character. In the third book, it felt like she had nothing to bring to the story and i would rather had Jasnah's PoV, or Renarin, or even the crazy slippery thief whom i can't recall the name. Her chapters feel more and more empty, like they have no substance, no meat. I'm no book critic expert so i can't exactly put my finger on what the problem is but they just feel boring. Also the character is not relatable, which is a shame cause she is the only female lead so far. Again, i would rather spend some time with Jasnah, or the slippery thief. Please bring back slipper she-knight, she sounds like her chapters could be super funny.
Her name is Lift, and I loved her novella Edgedancer.
Just heard about the novella. I must find it but here in france we are 1 to 2 years late on anything published due to translation. And English versions are a rarity.
0:05 Daggerfall guard moment
im the only one that in Oathbringer just pass the Shallan chapters?. I kind of like Shallan, but it really feels like the action stops so hard on her chapters, its very frustrating. (Im argentinian, very sorry for the bad writing! hahaha).
For me, Dalinar was the weakest of the three main perspectives in The Way of Kings. I loved Shallan's chapters, albeit not quite as much as Kaladin.
I don’t hate shallan, and personally i liked her in A Way Of Kings. Somewhere along oathbringer i started strongly disliking her character though. I feel a specific romance between her and someone was a missed opportunity, and her internal character voice gets very old after a time. Towards the end of Rhythm of War i started liking her povs again.
Overall- She’s a really complicated situation for me🤷🏼
Oh this is definitely me. I liked her in TWOK and WOR but felt less and less fond of her in Oathbringer. Can't say anything specific because it might be a spoiler but the fact that she tends to run away from her burden by doing what she does and her constant indecisiveness are what made her less appealing as a character for me. Haven't read ROW.
I love her even if her arc isn’t always handled a way I like
I also think another thing with Shallan is that we really don’t know as much about her quite as we do with Kaladin and Dalinar. With Kaladin we pretty solidly get his entire backstory and that’s of course enough to help build the emotional attachment, with Dalinar, we don’t get his full backstory until Oathbringer but we at least have this sort of backstory hook in Gavilar’s death and how Dalinar has this resentment in himself for not being there to protect Gavilar and we can see well enough how that informs his actions. Shallan, we know a little bit about her background but we don’t really have as strong a base for her backstory in Way Of Kings. Its not until WOR that we really get that and that does SO MUCH to contextualize why Shallan is the way she is. For me personally it was when she became my favorite of the three and I think her backstory and the basis of her character it establishes is a big reason why
I want to say I disagree that Shallan's plight is less dangerous than Kaladin's and Dalinar's. Sure, it is a lot more spread out, but she has this looming threat that her family is not only going to lose grace, but also most likely be murdered by thugs, who then may come after her. I dunno. Maybe I'm just retroactively placing that tension in there.
I think Shallan is definitely one of Sanderson's better female characters; having read a few of his other books, I think they can all look pretty similar with some shared character traits and philosophical progressions.
It's been a bit since I've read this series because I'm a chronically bad reader, so I feel I'm a little out of touch. To your credit, I kinda feel like picking up the next book, though, so whee!
As someone who hated and has come to only mildly dislike Shallan, I’m happy to see why people enjoy her character to see if I agree. I don’t agree, but I love the video and enjoy the point of view. :)
Thank you!
I used to love Shallan but I hate what Sanderson did to her in Rhythm of War
Jasnah is my favorite but shallan is a close second! Words of Radiance is my favorite though, so I guess that makes sense
**Major spoilers for Rhythm of War**
I hate Shallan because in book 4, she is like 'Woe is me, woe is me' then the reason she is like that is because she did something she had no choice in. She was literally a child when it happened. Like, you abandoned, your spren, essentially killed it, but you were a child when it happened. it was actually the spren's fault because it was the one who bonded a child.
''The world ended and Shallan is to be blamed''
Dude, I agree so much. On paper, she's a fascinating character. However, I think I grew to resent her because I really only wanted to read about Kaladin. Dalinar grew on me once I got his back story later, but Shallan just wouldn't do anything. She's so wishy/washy. Act, woman. You took me away from Bridge Four, dammit.
Am i the only one that liked the cliff hangers and being torn away from my characters that I'm fawning over? The break, the repreive, is so important and impressive to write something so well. Not to mention her chapters had so much amazing lore and back story that helped flesh out the world. Her information on parshmen made understanding the other chapters and how they were both dynamicly slaves and yet warriors.
*Mild WoR Spoilers*
You hit the nail on the head for me.
I enjoyed Shallans chapters because of the other people in them. I thought Jasnah and Pattern were interesting, as well as that plot of investigting the voidbringers. But Shallan herself was really lackluster. This is highlighted in WoR when Jasnah is removed from the plot. Shallan is supposed to be witty and funny but I found the funniest parts of her chapters had more to do with the other people than her. Additionally the reasons I liked her chapters had very little to do with her, it had more to do with the people around her or the information that was being revealed. Herr primary role in all of that is simply being present, which is really lackluster. All of the other chapters in WoK were very plot driven and you can see that the characters are always in a different spot at the end of each of their chapters. But, like you pointed out, it takes Shallan over 500 pages (!!!) to see a meaningful progression to her arc, which made it feel like her chapters were always dragging on with all of these pointless details.
Hey! Shallan Disliker here.
I really enjoyed your video, I think you made some great points, especially near the end. For me, it is absolutely her dialogue. I actually didn't mind the slower pacing, I thought it was a good build to her character and the environments and what not, but it did REALLY bloat the book quite a bit.
The biggest thing for me is Shallan's quippiness. She does come across as very cringe sometimes (her and wit, both.) The bloated, overly formal, too wordy dialogue takes up place on the page and sounds Way Too Much like someone trying to sound intelligent. It's this "I'm so much smarter than you!" vibe that really just pulls me off and dosen't interest me in her character, and in fact, pulls me away. I can absolutely understand what people are saying, such as The Myth of Izziphus, that this comes from Trauma. That dosen't change the fact that the dialogue is cringe, and bad, and annoying.
I personally, hated the boots scene. Not only was it way to long and over the top, but it was also a form of lighteyes using their oppressive power over the darkeyes without any drawbacks what so ever.
To me, Shallan comes across as way too quipy, much like a Marvel character. I don't see much of her trying to form genuine bonds with people, and rather prefers to lash out at people (especially kaladin) and insult them, while at the same time making herself look and feel so smart! It's not only this, but the prose seems to be On Her Side in these moments as well, as if she is constantly in the right.
I absolutely love her journey as a character. going from a teenager making it into the world, to a ward of a powerful woman, to a thief, to all the other routes she goes down WoR and Oathbringer. However, it dosen't change the fact that she clings to very few people close to her (like adolin) and otherwise seems content to lash out at people, all the while making herself seem oh so smart.
This dosen't make me hate Shallan's character overall, normally she's fine, but there is a fine line between when I can enjoy a character for being witty, and for when it is consitently being shoved down my throat with overly-wordy, bloated dialogue. I completely agree that Brandy has gotten better in words of radiance and FAR better in Oathbringer (Though even in that there are still parts that make me REALLY cringe.) Try noticing for yourself how many insults just boil down to "Your face" or "your appearance is ugly"
For example, when Lift does this, it's occasional, and you know that she's just doing it for a joke, but with Shallan it's always with this undertone of her sticking her chin in the air and seeming better then the other person. In short, it's annoying.
SPOILERS FOR OATHBRINGER
In one of the last parts of Oathbringer, Shallan is talking with Adolin after he's seeing her oogling Kaladin again, and says that he'll let Kaladin have her. Obviously she gets upset at this, (at being treated like an object, you know, patriarchy and all that) as she should, but she also COMPLETELY invalidates Adolin's genuine frustration at her being unfaithful to him in their engagement. She makes excuses, saying she's an artist, when we have Literally Seen From her POV her lusting after him. She rants in a literal PARAGRAPH of dialogue about it.
Yeah.... Shallan's forced love triangle thing is what has made me dislike her more than anything else. I never disliked the character until Oathbringer. In fact, I quite enjoyed her in WoK and WoR. Not every character can be badass muscle man doing cool honorable things and learning her backstory and trauma was amazing. The thing is, Shallan enver seems to progress or get better. We see Kaladin constantly struggling and barely winning agains this demons of depression. And also conquering his bitterness and jadedness surrounding the class system (which he has every right to despise).
Shallan just seems so static? She's still the same, quippy, insecure, overcompensating child we had since the first book. She barely started to stand on her own two feet in Words of Radiance, and all that completely reverts in Oathbringer. Shallan even says this herself and recognizes. But she basically blames it on Jasnah and we never really see her overcome it or "pass the test". She in fact just gets worse and worse, fracturing her identity and giving into these weird delusions and multiple personality.
I want her to be better. I kind of hate her incognito chapters. I like her being a scholar and scientist way more.
I really appreciate videos like this. Great points!
The real question is who likes venli?
I like that I don't like her. It's okay for a character to be written purposefully unlikeable.
I liked her in the Way Of Kings. But than... Words Of Radiance Shallan happened... Haven't finished it yet, but I see her as some spoiled brat that succeeds in everything. She was closed a child, than a scholar and now at her first try she became an excellent actress. I think that her progression has been hastened to much
Basically, she becomes Mary Sue. Less Mary Sue than Jasnah, but still.
@@TheAleosha Neither of those characters are mary sues wtf
@@riley8385 Jasnah: belongs to the most powerful House in the world, extremely beautiful, extremely smart, masters 4th ideal way before everyone else does, strongest spellcaster ever, beats everyone in swordfights. Yeah, definitely not Mary Sue 🤣
@@TheAleosha You don't know what a Mary Sue is, my dude. You're just listing character traits. A character being good at shit or having money doesn't make them a "mary sue".
A lot of those things can be applied to Dalinar and Adolin. Kaladin is extremely good at fighting when he's just the son of a surgeon with considerably fewer years of training than, said, Adolin. But I doubt you would call Kaladin/Adolin/Dalinar a Mary Sue.
As for Jasnah, she's a noble, has been a scholar for some good 15 years and a Radiant for 7 years, way before everyone else.
Did you miss the part when Dalinar judges her swordplay as being barely above a student in RoW? Because she has lived the life of a scholar, not a soldier, and needed to train in secret for 7 years (and even still she's not that good at fighting).
There's an entire chapter in which she struggles to fight against a Fused and is scared shitless of being in the battlefield. She even has trouble with the regular soldiers, and only managed to get the upper hand in that fight because of the armor and the support of the other soldiers.
Not to mention we don't have her backstory yet.
@@TheAleosha Do you think Navani is a mary sue because she's an engineer? Or that Dalinar is a Mary Sue because he's a better general than every other highprince?
Adolin is the head of the most powerful princedom in Alethkar, is extremely attractive and a master duelist to the point he can go toe-to-toe with three shardbearers at once.
Mary Sue doesn't mean "character who is good at something".
Her chapters in Way of Kings is not interesting until she slowly reveal her true talent. She become my favorite character when she keep true to her mission even though she got engaged to Adolin.
Really interesting... And yes, I can see your argument about the jarring disconect, but for me it was a great thing. The Kaladin story beats are SO intense in particular the Shallan scenes were a welcome break to let the tension out. In particlar there are scenes where something awful happens to Kaladin and then the story picks up a bit later - time has passed - and the Shallan chapter between them makes that feel more natural.
On the other hand, whilst Sanderson's writing has improved I've grown to dislike Shallan more and more as the story goes on. Her 'arc' felt complete by end of WoR - she has faced up to the whole in herself and gone through a transition. In WoR I liked it whenever she was with Dalinar or Kaladin but the rest of the time it was less... impact than the stuff she was doing with Jasnah,
(MINOR OATHBRINGER SPOILERS - NOT END OF BOOK SPOILERS BUT GENERIC BOOK SETTING SPOILERS) But I, personally, don't find who she has transitioned into very interesting. I don't find her minor plot threads in Oathbringer interesting as I am not learning about either her or the world in any significant way. Whereas before, although the purpose was slow, it was clear. Now she is just being led by the nose by shadowy people. Kaladin suffers from this as well - the book is not about him - he's just 'there' going through the motions, only for him I found the motions a little more compelling. I am sure this will get turned around and Shallan will become important and relevent again, and these new story beats are building somewhere but it feels as though WoR was her big 'moment' and it's still to be seen what role she has in whats to come. To.... To go into more detail would spoil Oathbringer. All I'll say is I'm sure a lot of people will find the Shallan stuff in it brilliant and fascinating but for me it was a bit 'oh, I liked the old Shallan, can we have her back? She was more interesting'.
I completely get your point, and that must've been Sanderson's intent to make Shallan's scenes a welcome break from the intensity. And I understand what you felt about Shallan's arc in WoR. I've just started Oathbringer, and already it seems like Shallan has moved backward slightly, in terms of arc progress.
Says Sanderson gets better with splitting readers attention -> Rhythm of War was RIFE with Listener flashbacks that most people I know weren’t able to focus through.
I really liked Jasnah and she stole from her. I really liked Kaladin and she took his boots on their first meeting.
Also the fact that her actions never have consequences.
I liked her in the way of kings. Started to dislike her in words of radiance. I think I'm starting to hate her in Oathbringer
I totally agree with you Shallan is a contender for my favorite character in the series. Maybe it's because I too am a little bit cringe but I enjoyed her terrible humour (I enjoy humour that's intentionally very bad, where the joke is how bad the joke is).
It's also interesting seeing her deal with things like trauma and identity, I think Brandon did a great job with her character.
I think Shalan is a wonderfully complex and compelling character and I freaking love her. She might be my favorite character in the books (though it would be tough to pick- I really love them all!) I love that there is so much more depth, pain, strength, and fragility in her than we are first lead to believe and I love the way this slowly unfolds. She's definitely not your run-of-the-mill spoiled rich girl off to see the world for the first time, though she does seem so at first. Definitely agree that the impatience/annoyance I sometimes felt with her, especially in The Way of Kings, is more of a pacing issue than anything to do with her character.
Thanks for the brilliant videos, loving them!
Thank you!!
I totally loved shallan's chapters in WoK. Maybe I'm biased bc she was the first important female character (that's at leats how I remember it). But I still found her and her arc to be intriguing and exciting, even at the beginning
I hate it when she gets in a funk, but she's otherwise awesome.
I feel like you always have this issue with multiple POV characters. At least at first.
On my first read, I really disliked Shallan's chapters. The story started with Kaladin and I want to know how his story continues goddamnit. On subsequent reads, however, I find myself really enjoying Shallans chapters and wondering what my problem was.
I feel the same about Elantris, as well. Used to absolutely hate Hrathen's chapters, but on a re-read, it's not as bad. (Though I still prefer Raoden's and Sarene's chapters) And this is a book where Brandom himself says he messed up the POV switches.
A Song of Ice and Fire I have not read multiple times, but I had similar issues with it, particularly in A Game of Thrones, but really through the first three or four books. There were just some chapters (Cersei, Sansa, Jaime) that I liked much much less than others (Arya, Tyrion, Daenerys). I think it was only in the last book where I actually enjoyed reading all the chapters. In the other ones it felt more like a chore.
Nice analysis. Particularly, I found Kaladin & Dalinar chapters and developments way more interesting in all books, while Shallan can be really... "unfunny and annoying" as you stated, with few captivating scenes comparing to the others, which is kinda lame because she have so many chapters and maybe it was supposed to make me like her as it passes. Probably this "early stage" of the character, considering that she will developt much more, is not really my thing (or maybe the character as a whole). Her relationship with Adolin and with Pattern are very good tho
I was a little upset when I was reading the way of kings and saw that Shallan didn't have any chapters in the next part after Jasnah decided to take her in.
I'm half way through Words of Radiance but Shallan was always my second favorite character, right behind Dalinar in Way of Kings. Now that Dalinar has taken a huge back seat in Words of Radiance, Shallan is still 2nd and Adolin is my favorite. She is a bit cringy, but Sanderson books in general are pretty cringy as a whole. I just learned to live with it. At least her chapters are interesting and things are happening. Kaladin's chapters all felt the same in Way of Kings. He does a thing, and then he gets it taken away from him, then he finds a new plan to fix it again... while getting in his own way a lot. His back story was great but other than that, Kaladin just feels like he's kinda there. Which is why he's my least favorite. Everybody else at least feels like they have some relation to the story.
I knew people hated her but I wasn’t bothered enough by her in way of kings for that. Then her development in the next two books is so damn good. I fricken love her
see, i actually like her better at the start. i thought her "development" in the next two books is what really made her annoying
I did not like Shallan in Way of Kings but starting in Words of Radiance she started to stick to me and now she's one of my favorites.
Hold up. That's not how I've been pronouncing Shallan.
uh oh
@@ManCarryingThing I've always said, "Shall - in." Just fit the ring of how I said all the names, "Kahl - uh - din," "Dahl - in - arh," "Ah - duh - lin" (Idk how to type pronunciations) All kinda rhymed that way
Shallan was never falling in love with Kabsal. She even thinks to herself that she’s not that into him. But she knows he really likes her, so she’s basically just leading him on with all her flirtation. This was another reason why I didn’t like her.
I actually started to like her in book 2, but then went back to disliking her in book 3 and now I dislike her even more after book 4.
Re-reading Stormlight has brought a new appreciation for Shallan. Maybe because it’s been 5 years since I started Stormlight initially. But at first I thought she was too much of a comedic character while trying not to be. But on my second re-read of the series, knowing the arcs has helped me enjoy her as a character, that ai find fun to read now.
The only reason that I didn't like shallan in the way of kings was that her back story seemed more guessable compared to other characters.
Sanderson just cannot write women characters very well, it's not hos strength. However he will never be matched in worldbuilding, he is the master. Very good at character profiles too (not to be confused with characterization) and complex lore, easter eggs.
Shallan is one of my favorite characters in the books as well. In the first book, I just found her chapters fun and appreciated the shift in setting and viewpoint, providing a more thoughtful/educated view to contrast with Kaladan's limited, "I'm just trying to survive" one. Then in the second book, I was kept really entertained by Shallan having to bluff her way through her problems.
Instead, Dalinar and Adolin were the ones that I initially disliked (until much later in the first book).
Old video, but here’s my two cents anyway. Shallan’s issue in book one is that she tries to be cute/clever ALL the time… it gets cringey and irritating. Also, as you said, we cut to her hanging in a library while Kal and Dalinar are in a war zone dealing with major events. So she’s a slightly annoying character that takes us away from where we want to be.
My real issue with her is that when she reaches the war camps in book 2 the very first thing she does when interacting with Kal is to be a horrible person to him for really no reason other than to get a laugh out of someone she knows is unsavory at best. She could have disguised her identity and got into the camp, but being a bitch and taking a soldier’s boots just to show how above him she is? Sorry, lots a hate coming her way for that. She basically confirmed a lot of Kal’s negative thoughts towards light-eyes and she really had no reason to outside of trying to be a bad person. She comes across like a middle schooler, putting others down to make herself look/feel cooler. Not a good look.
I really didn’t start to warm up to her until Oathbringer and then WoR. I get other people liking her before that (and still disliking her), but after her first meeting with Kal it took a long time before I was interested in her character. Even now, she’s only like my 5th or 6th favorite character.
Ones opinion on shallan depends on what kind of person bullied you as a kid
She was my least favorite in WoK, but it was a close race, and I still liked her.
She was one of my favorites in WoR
I also liked her in Oathbringer
But Shallan in RoW is driving me to distraction. I CANNOT stand her in RoW. Her behavior in early Part 4 made me stop reading out of frustration
Yeah, been trying to get into Way of Kings since I found out Sanderson had put the audiobook up on his UA-cam channel, and I have a hard to making it through the Shallan parts. They just really drag on without much of importance happening and I'm not sure why I should care.
I mean, one is a story of a boy that had everything taken away from him and had to find ways to survive and save other misfortunate souls from horrible fates.
The other is a story of a rich girl that is afraid she will be less rich and thus has to go steal a thing.
SHallan is an interesting character, but has a boring-ass arc in the first book.
except the second one is only what you are lead to believe at the start, and you learn that things are far darker on that storyline as well. The second I found out what her motivation actually was, I instantly found her to be the most interesting of the 3 big personalities in the book. I knew how each of the other two would react in a given circumstance, but she was/is far more unpredictable.
To be fair I actually think that’s what makes her character so interesting. Her motives are selfish and her methods are kinda rash but boy does she have guts.
@@smaug1234 Yeah, sure, later she becomes more interesting. But, then again, her story becomes slightly repetitive and feels like she is a fence sitter waay too much. IN four books her character just feels like a leaf caught in the wind of the story.
Furthermore, first impressions are important. She starts off as a boring interruption to the story we want to read.
It's hard to recover from that.
@@vladimirgertner3960 I think you underestimate the power a author has in leaving you in suspense. Kals story is not very exciting without the other story lines to break it up, its actually pretty depressing. To me one of the best things about the LOTR books over the movies is how Tolkien broke up the story telling. Getting the Aragon side first in the two towers and then leaving Frodo poisoned and captured in Mordor for the half of Return of the King was life changing when I read it back in the day. I guess I want more then a action story from a good Fantasy story . I want the great warriors, I want the grey characters, but mostly I want the bigger world. I have no idea how anyone could not like this character. That Shallan Davar is a great bunch of ladies if you ask me :)
@@smaug1234 I mean, enjoy her if you want. BUt as a person, she is annoying as all hell. And that's a big part of the problem. To each their own, but to the majority of the readers that i spoke to, Shallan is a person they would never even try to be friends with.
Literally, if you met them in real life, the only likeable people in the books are Adolin and several bridge 4 members.
as far as breaking up the action goes. I actually agree with you. It needs to happen from time to time. But it also needs to be done really insanely well for it to not annoy the readers.
Furthermore, it needs to not happen all the time.
I personally really enjoyed Shallan’s apprenticeship under Jasnah in tWoK. So if anything, I would have anticipationspren when reaching a Shallan chapter.
I see what your getting at, but for me the character that holds the least interest is Dalinar, I get his importance and the drive he brings to the story, and appreciate it, but I don't relate as well as I do with other veiw points, probably because his character is aimed at an older age group (I don't think Brandon had 15 year olds in mind when he wrote it), but it might also be that I listen to the audiobook first and had it read for me, not having to plow through the less captavating chapters, and maybe I'm looking back at Shallans charactor and seeing her development throughout the series and not just the way she was in the way of kings
I hate a lot of the things she does, but I still adore the character. She's upsettingly well written.
I’m only a few hundred pages into RoW, but I found myself doing double takes as I’ve been reading it regarding shallan. I thought we got the majority of her backstory from the second book as we learned about her dad and mom. And she finally accepted that then and yay progress!!!
But apparently that was not all…? And I just got confused. It felt like this was just added into the fourth book as an afterthought. Don’t get me wrong- I’m excited to learn about it because I love shallan. But it just felt weird to me that we already delved deep into her backstory only to find out there is an entire part we haven’t even seen yet, if that makes sense.
But I still love shallan and pattern lol. I love their cringe
Thank you for helping me understand my own feelings about this! I felt like kind of a dickhead for hating the only female protagonist in this book, but now I recognize that it wasn't her femininity that made me resent her.
Shallan and Kaladin are my favorite PoVs. Dalinar is third. As someone who can relate all too well to Shallan (Artist, DID, Scholarly mind) she was just so hard hitting for me. She is a great exemplification of a well written dissociative disorder character.
I love your channel!!
Thank you so much!!
Alternative ending shallan helps kabsal and joins the ghostbloods.
For me that's definitely not the case I actually liked her a lot in Book 1, still liked her in Book 2 but a little less then Book 3 I hated her
Woah woah, I'm reading through WOK for the first time. I love Shallan!
Shallan the insane and dangerous to herself and others, character. Sanderson makes her the great, lauded by all hero. What Brandon does is harmful. It misrepresents insanity as a helpful trait. He did this as well in "Legion." Something is really wrong with Sanderson's knowledge of mental illness. He thinks he is being helpful, but he is very sadly in very harmful error.
people who like shallan are not the kind of people i want in my life.
just finished way of the kings. and man, the chapters with shallan were just soooooooo boring. i don't necessarily hate her quips but am not fond of them either. As english is not my first language, i don't really get the humour of them too much. it's fine.
i have heard that words of radiance is about her and it is really good. she is her best in this book. although i want to say can't wait to read it, i will wait. i am tired after reading this book. First time i experienced this. man, this book was slow and long.
Im not a fan of Shallan mostly because she’s fundamentally a bad person trying to accomplish her own selfish goals. She’s rude to people who aren’t helpful to her and even rude to some people who are helpful! And if she were a villain that would be fine but we treat her like a protagonist and we put her with Adolin who is WAY to good for her.
Granted, I've only read WoK and WoR, but how is she a bad person? She's deeply traumatised, and even though her plan to steal Jasnah's soulcaster is deeply, deeply, stupid, she does it to save her family from a horrific fate at the hands of their creditors. In the second book, she tries to convince the various caravans and bandits to work together, despite being able to easily win any fight with her shardblade. Then, she devotes herself to continuing Jasnah's life's work. I can't think of a single corrupt motivation (at least in the first two books) Shallan has.
However, her style of humour is absolutely horrible.
@@mono90286 I don’t think she’s a villain, nor corrupt/evil/wicked. She’s not the antagonist, and compared to the family she came from she’s wonderful, I just don’t think she’s inherently a good person. I’m rereading the series now and I’m almost done with WOR again and she’s a better person than I had remembered but still more of an antihero than a genuinely good person.
@@ThePeterCompton Yeah, she's rude, she uses humour as a coping mechanism for trauma. But I don't see how she's just trying to "accomplish her own selfish goals". I can't think of a single example. Just because you don't like her doesn't mean she's a bad person (and I get why you wouldn't, some of her lines are just atrocious).
have you read oath bringer yet? I hate this character so much her chapters make me roll my eyes to the back of my skull no seriously I pause the audible to roll my eyes each time each time! lol
Haha, I got about halfway through but I'm taking a little break (too much stormlight all at once). I wonder if listening on audio adds to the annoyance? I've only read them physically
Holy shit I did too.. while every characters evolving into more and more interesting, shallan just disintegrating into something unrecognizable.. why should we care about her when even she doesn't like being shallan? It doesn't make sense that her spreen love lies yet shallan doesn't even know if she lied every time she turned into veil or radiant.. she doesn't have clarity.. the most important thing to have if you want to create perfect lies is to know the truth.. if shallan isn't who she really is, then who the hell is she?.. her internal conflict is so boring to read and if you remove her from the book it ain't gonna change a thing.. maybe her character will be better in the next book but by the time it comes, the damage's already been done.. her character is uninteresting for far too long..
@@rakatsceptic6379 TLDR: Shallan's steady decent into a bubbling mess of human IS her story
"if Shallan isn't who she really is, then who is she?" Is exactly the point of her story arc up to Rhythm of War. From her introduction her entire life is a increasingly more intricate web of lies. Wether it's lying to the people on the ship about why she wanted passage, repeatedly lying to Jasnah about why she was their, lying to Tvlakav to get him to turn his caravan around, lying by omission to the thief woman who's name I forget (possibly Tyn), the creation of Veil and therefore the official start of her split personality disorder and of course lying to herself for years about her roll in the death of her parents and the collapse of her house. Shallan doesn't know who she is, she never did and when she tries to make a new identity for herself during the mission in Kholinar she gets several children killed which triggers her repressed memories to bubble to the surface causing a borderline mental breakdown.
@@matthewevans5486 like I said, her story is boring to read.. she did everything alone like it was her job to unveil the killing of Jasnah.. dude, her family is the most powerful people on Roshar and shallan can't even mentioned that she suspect an organization for the killing of their beloved princess? Her information is important to their survival, what if ghostblood wanted to finish dalinar instead after learning that he's close to unveiling the secret of the voidbringer? Or Navani, or Elhokar? Who's gonna stop an enemy they don't know existed?.. and after she joined the ghostblood, what did she learned from them that is so important to her, other than how his brother died? She doesn't even tell the others that one of the order of radiants still exist after all this time, lead by a herald.. does she think it's not important to share that secret in the middle of a fukking apocalypse? Tell Jasnah about it and try to make contact with them, it could be their best chance against odium.. so what the fukk is this girl's purpose in this story? Why is she so disconnected from other characters and the main plot? Who the fukk wants to read about a girl weeping everytime she make a bad decicion when it can be avoided by trusting others and involved in the fukking story?.. she's not complex with her identity crisis or self absorbed sense of righteousness, she's a boring character.. erase her from the book ain't gonna change anything significant to the story...
@@rakatsceptic6379 Shallan's first interaction with Dalinar and Navani was to to tell them about Jasnah's death. In fact it's literally the first thing she did (aside from her encounter with Kalladin) after entering the Warcamp. As for her not telling them it was specifically the ghost bloods that killed her, what exactly is she supposed to say? "Here is the name of the group that killed your daughter/niece, I know this because I met a con woman on the way here and happened to see a single span reed message that confirmed it"? Because without her infiltration of the Ghost Bloods that's all she has and seeing as they have people literally everywhere this comment would likely have lead to Shallan being watched very closely assuming that Dalinar and Navani didn't suspect her on the spot and possibly to Elokar's assassination being fast tracked. I disagree that she didn't do a great deal after the first book, she is integral to the infiltration of Kohlinar and the survival of Kalladin and Adolin when everything went sideways, was literally the only person that could find and figure out how to access Urithiru, helped convince Dalinar to push into the plains and planned and executed the capture of Sadeas' wife (even if she did die). She isn't a soldier, she isn't a scientist, she isn't a politician, she isn't even really a noblewoman despite her family technically being nobles.
I loved Shallan because she stood out like few other characters did. Just because a person is annoying sometimes, doesn’t mean they, as a character, are bad. If anything, it just makes them feel more realistic.