How to Use a Membrane System to Prep a Shower for Tiling | This Old House
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- Опубліковано 31 сер 2014
- This Old House general contractor Tom Silva shows a foolproof way to build a leak-free shower. (See below for a shopping list and tools.)
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Tom helps a pair of homeowners prepare and waterproof a shower enclosure to accept new tile. Rather than use a traditional copper shower pan and cement board for the walls, Tom suggests using a new product that can be applied directly to many different types of substrate, making it totally waterproof and ready for tile. The product is a flexible membrane that is applied to the walls and floor using mortar applied with a notched trowel. Tom applies mortar to the walls and then presses the membrane onto the walls, taking care to flatten out any bubbles; he also cuts for the shower valve and fixtures using a utility knife. For each corner, he applies mortar and a narrow strip of membrane. For the floor, Tom uses a pre-sloped foam tray. With the tray in place, Tom marks for the floor drain and cuts a hole in the subfloor using a hole saw. Next, Tom applies mortar to the floor and sets the foam tray in place. Tom then seals the joint between the floor and walls using more mortar and small pieces of the membrane. Tom then sets the specially-designed floor drain into the tray with more mortar and trowels it smooth. Finally, Tom sets a piece of membrane onto the floor and installs a foam curb, making the enclosure totally waterproof and ready for tile.
Tools for How to Use a Membrane System to Prep a Shower for Tiling:
- sponge and bucket
- 1/8-inch and 1/4-inch notched trowels
- 10-inch-wide drywall knife
- utility knife
- drill/driver fitted with 4-inch hole saw
- mixing paddle
Shopping List for How to Use a Membrane System to Prep a Shower for Tiling:
- waterproof membrane kit
- dry-set mortar
- preformed shower pan and curb
Tom used a type of waterproofing system for shower enclosures manufactured by Schluter-Systems, L.P. [www.schluter.com/schluter-us/...]
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How to Use a Membrane System to Prep a Shower for Tiling | This Old House
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watching this old house when i was a kid got me interested in construction, started my own business 20 years ago and still love it.
Let us not ignore the fact that Mr. Silva was able to throw the membrane in the air and have it land PERFECTLY over the drain. He is the Chuck Norris of contractors. Great job.
He's great with pizza dough, too.
@@eddiebutters8452 lol. That was a good one.
A magician never tells his secrets
4.30, the formed corner pieces go in before the long corner strips, so the strips overlap them.
Red guards the way to go
I was shown to always put the tray in first like a few other guys said its just like roofing start at the bottom and overlap your seams then water for sure has no way of getting to the bare flooring underneath. But each to their own. This system still works awesome either way. I think they should make it a law people have to use this because it will save the home owners money in the long run plus you have absolutly no worries and you save the environment because your not throwing out so much wasted materials because of leaks or rot from trying to save a buck. To many people put all their money into finishings not whats behind it which is the most important of all!!! Everyone thinks of themselves nowadays and it makes for a lot of money wasted by everyone even if you think your saving a dollar your not because the next house you buy that guy probably tried to save a buck too!! Karma it will always catch up to you in the end!
You learn a lot watching these guys and viewing all the pros comments come in hand as well!
especially that you have to wet yourself so the cement/concrete/mortar doesnt dry you out.
u mean MORTAHHH
Pretty cool technology.
I always put the floor waterproofing in first, and had the wall waterproofing overlap the floor's. The same principle as flashing on a roof or around windows and doors. This is different. This adhesive must be some tough stuff...
I do the same thing you do. Not sure why they are recommending people to do it this way but I guess they have their reasons.
OSemeador You don't to do that. Schluter has a series of videos on how to install Kerdi. They wasted money in this video by lining the shower stall with cement board. The cement board is not needed, and all you need on the walls is plain drywall. The Kerdi liner properly installed is 100% waterproof. The Kerdi system is inexpensive and quick.
RandallFlaggNY Inexpensive, waterproof, but not nearly as rigid and durable as cement board. When so much money is being spent on a tile shower, I'm not using drywall to back tile, I'll go the extra bucks and use cement board.
Porsche924Tim
Not needed. I plumbed my studs to perfection. I glued the drywall to the studs with proper screw schedules. I followed the instructions to the letter and I expect no problems.
Cement board is not (repeat NOT) waterproof. It is porous. I've seen pictures of some water logged studs.
RandallFlaggNY Right... your method is inexpensive and waterproof, but drywall is not as durable and rigid as cement board. It will be just as waterproof using this system with cement board backing the tile and membrane instead of drywall. I think they were smart for opting with cement board. A bit of insurance at a small overall cost.
Good system
I want to cover my whole bathroom in this product and be able to clean it with a pressure washer.
hahhahaha
Thank you. Again. And again.
Suppose I want make my shower larger than those two pieces, is there provisions for that?
Goodness Tommy makes it look easy
Fir3Chi3f he da man , I hate all of these other comments talking shit , don’t watch it if u do t like it , right ?
I enjoyed it
I would think starting at the bottom and working up would be better.
0:27 Silva be like: don't worry about it and watch" hahaha.
I would connect the drain first before taking a shower
b8e71fcbe2e195c67d8d16734013d20f glad to see someone commented on that because I was wondering how just dropping a drain in the floor magically would take the water from the shower floor to the sewer system. Thought maybe it just wirelessly took the waste water via Bluetooth. "Just drop the drain into the floor" viola you're done. Thanks tommy
🤣
b8e71fcbe2e195c67d8d16734013d20f What’s up with your username?
I'd like to see more from this one. Do they tile right over that membrane?
Pete Brown yes
Does anyone know what causes the membrane not to want to consistently stick to the thinset? I always find pockets of air even though the air was pushed out before it set. When I return I often find pockets here and there that didn’t stick and it feels loose.
I've installed this system several ways and the way Tom has installed is the best way. You take a chance of dropping a sharp object on the already installed shower tray and walking on it is never a good idea unless you lay a drop cloth down.
I've never seen that before. Does that foam support heavy tile directly, without cracking, or is there another layer that goes over it?
The system will support any tile and always use an un-modified thin-set,
And you really don't won't to use tile bigger than a 2*2for the floor, anything bigger starts interfering with the pre-formed pitch on the floor
1181steveo Interesting. Thanks. I thought for sure you'd need to use big tiles on that floor to support weight. I'm not convinced that the styrofoam won't deform under weight and cause cracks.
Schluter-kerdi shower kit is a very ridged, I have had no call backs on this system.
I would like to see the tile
Please comment on the need (or not) for alkali mesh tape between the cement boards. In particular, when using Hardibacker.
You need to use the alkali tape and screws because eventually the cement board will corrode regular tape and drywall screws.
Just as the installation of roof shingles starts from the bottom row up, this entire sequence of installation should be reversed ...otherwise the mortar is the only material that stops seepage behind various pieces of the membrane.
I would do differently, I would start the shower pan first, and then membrane from the bottom, work all the way up,
Hieu Tran that’s the only thing I would do differently, If I did it that way I would at leist red guard the pan and up the wall 2 feet
Absolutely, just in case the 2” overlap fails the water won’t run underneath the membrane. Just like siding, shingles, flashing, and tar paper on the outside of a house.
Great idea! 👍🏼
Definitely, you want your cement board to sit on top of the shower pan.
You are correct. And this is best practice. Something to remember: the moment cement board gets wet, it begins wicking water. It is not inherently waterproof , obviously, so this is part of the reason it should not be below the water line.
The shower pan in this system is lightweight foam, and not something you want to be walking on. Don't worry, once the membrane corners are put in place, it is absolutely waterproof. In fact, the very last step before tile is to plug the drain and fill the pan with water to check for leaks.
Why wouldn't you run the membrane horizontal all the way around, bottom piece first of course, and avoid the seams in the corners?
🤔 hmmmm.... Gooood question. Seems to make sense mister.
you can, its just easier to mud one wall at a time
crazy that in America they don't use Coll-L but instead their Schluter recommends just plain thinset on the joints, sure it's not gonna get wrecked quickly but the thinset isn't waterproof and will soak up water over time
This old 🏠.....Souix falls SD
Backer board all the way down to the subfloor?
Can you use the safe for baths also?
What season and episode?
Can you install the membrane over the existing 5/8” plasterboard (not drywall)? My bath has/ had 1950s plastic tile that easily pop off leaving the plaster behind intact. It seems unnecessary to remove the plasterboard to put in cement board if the existing is in good shape. What are your thoughts?
You can do that, but as an installer I will always install a moisture board like denshield or Durrock, redundancy is key to not having waranty call backs.
WTH I should the drain?
could you do a video on mixing the morta?? no one ever does. is there a right way and a wrong way ?? how do you know when it is right??.
PBS #007 by doing it!
You know when it's right by taste.
Great question. Just about every manufacturer of thinset mortar would tell you to follow the directions on the bag carefully. This is because it is a chemical reaction and really shouldn't be guessed at, eyeballed or trial and errored.
Watch sal Diblasi channel on mixing. He’s the best
Thanks but i think i stick to elastic hydro isolation
much more work for the same results but to each their own
@@shanmike11 True, it's more work, but it's less money.
Is the adhesive thinset
Yes, is an unmodified thin set mortar. No latex additives, etc. Extra wet for the membrane.
What was the adhesive he used when he installed the drain? Was that also dry-set mortar? Also, I thought you had to overlap the polyethylene sheets in such a way that the lower pieces are behind the upper pieces? Am I wrong?
+Slap Stick Same adhesive. As long as you overlap the Schluter Kerdi membrane by 2 inches it doesn't matter what order you go in.
You should also use an unmodified thin set mortar, no polymers
Please name list of equipment.. :) example: waterproofing membrane
These are products by Schluter. He is using the Schluter Kerdi membrane.
Cement board isn't needed - they also make a Kerdi board (1/2" thick) that can be installed directly to the studs instead of cement board - it is completely waterproof, much lighter, and more forgiving.
www.schluter.com/schluter-us/en_US/Membranes/Waterproofing-(KERDI)/Schluter%C2%AE-KERDI/p/KERDI
I didn't see a level. Was checking for level just left out? I'm just assuming the floor was checked for level before the video started.
You might also have wanted to show checking the slope of the tray. Even though it's pre-sloped, you've got a floor and thinset underneath that could alter its angle. Just to be extra fussy... It only takes a few seconds and having it turn out wrong means a pool of water in a corner or along an edge.
Can I use this directly on drywall surrounding my shower tub?
Yes
Hello, I would like to expand my powder room by opening up the closet next to it. Can you tell me what the standard sizes are for the Membrane System? I will have to work around the preformed shower pan and curb. Thanks
The Kerdi System comes in 3ft wide rolls and i also 6 in wide rolls for the corners. You have to cut down to fit your application and i dont know the length of the large rolls but they are expensive!
It is very expensive. The old rubber pan liner and waterproof paint on the walls is much cheaper and still does the trick. For clients I prefer the Kerdi but for personal I use the pan liner. You can buy it off the shelf at Home Depot
What happened to good old mud floating shower walls over a waterproofed lath job? The Kerdi pan system seems like an advancement for that, but if you start with even slightly crooked studs or out of plumb walls, you end up with a crap tile job.
Cause that box is osha compliant.
How would I install a shower tray if I don't have a square or rectangular shower base?
They come in many sizes, you can buy one oversized and cut it to fit. It's super easy to cut because its foam.
Ever hear of EMT?
Wish can be that easy
Ill be at work sweating
And frustrated bacause nothing will do and fit right😠😠
I have installed approximately 30-40 showers with this kerdi system. I do not care for them. I prefer the Wedi system. But I have often wondered how does the water not possibly leak under the kerdi ban edges because mortar is not waterproof. Does anybody know.
I use red guard or hydroban on my seems instead of mortar.. I dont trust a mortar joint
I was told that the wet mortar reacts with the membrane and makes it rock hard and waterproof. I used the schluter system but I will read about the one that you mentioned for the next shower.
um, what happens if the drain backs up?
The drain flange needed to be sealed to drain pipe as the flange was set into the thin set but that’s not shown or mentioned!
I'm guessing they have access from underneath and can do that later.
shouldn't that last piece have the edges covered with the membrane too?
They didn't show it but yes, the curb gets wrapped as well.
What kind of "adhesive" did you use? Not unmodofied mortar?
From my limited experience, it seems like a thin coat of Red Guard over everything would work just as well, take much less time, and require less effort. Any pros have some input?
The Schluter Kerdi system is far superior to the method you describe, in my opinion. Of course others will disagree. With red guard you get to build your own curb, install a copper or pvc tray liner, hand float a dry pack mortar bed and then put 2 coats of red guard on everything. With the Schluter system, I can be completely installed and ready for tile in a quarter of the time, easily. It does cost more but I'm willing to pay it for the labor savings. And I know it works, the first time I ever used Schluter, I capped the drain and filled it to the top of the curb with water to do a leak test. 24 hours later and it was still at the same level. Schluter Kerdi hands down for me.
aatyyav
You are correct..regarding faster and cheaper and this system is flawed, the thinset on the membrane isn't waterproof
Building a pan and Redgarding it works, but it will take much longer. More material to mix and spread, and each layer takes time to cure before moving to the next.
Wouldn’t it be better to put the corner piece before doing the actually walls ?
The corner pieces go last because it's easy to feather out the mortar and make things smooth.
Is this system used anymore? I haven't heard or seen anything in reference to this system in quite a long time.
Yes it is used, it is kind expensive tho. Schluter, ditra, etc.
It is sort of used here in Sweden. We use them in sensitive areas like corners of the room along side proper sealant (like a thick paint) this alone is not considered water tight and if you only use this and get any sort of water damage in your bathroom you will not get a single cent from your insurance company.
This system is pretty much the most common system used today. It is expensive but in the long run it is far superior to anything else available.
That is not true. This system is 100% water tight, and vapor tight as well. You do not need any liquid applied waterproofing on the joints. If installed correctly. Schluter provides a 10 year warranty (so they would pay out in case of a leak), and now that warranty is extended if you use their thin sets as well.
To answer the original question, yes this system is used all the time by many installers.
Anyone of the people on this thread want more information check out the Holmes on Homes series from Canada. Every bathroom they do use the Schluter/Kerdi waterproof system. It honestly is the best on the market, the only thing you have to consider is weather to use Modified or Unmodified Thin Set, all depends on your construction.
Adheezive
Would you say this video is... insane in the membrane ???
No.
Why do they have the carpenter on this one?
Richard doesn't do this kind of work, just the plumbing.
Ad-he-ziv or Ad-he-siv?
Ad-hez-siv
problem solved
Lol, I'm an Ad-he-siv man myself.
Is there a specific adhesive you like to use for this membrane?
Why do you need the membrane? Isn't the Durock waterproof enough? Isn't the tile waterproof enough?
no, they are not waterproof
+john vonburg if they aren't using the prescribed thinset to install the membrane, they will get no warranty if it leaks.
Tommy used the wrong thinset to adhere the pan to the floor. To attach the pan to a wood subfloor you're supposed to use an Unmodified thinset mortar. Everything else uses polymer modified thinset when installing Schluter systems.
That is not correct. For all Schluter products you use unmodified thinset. The ONLY time you use modified thinset is when applying Ditra over plywood/OSB, or applying on top of vinyl tiles (in which case you need to use a rapid setting high polymer thinset, though I would just remove the underlying vinyl). Literally every single other application of their products requires unmodified thinset.
They just released their own line of thinset. If you buy their thinset you can use modified under and on top of their products. It is called Schluter AllSet (as the name implies it can be used for all aspects of installing their products). However if you do not buy their brand, you cannot use modified to bond kerdi products.
Is the membrane red guard?
Paul Watterson no redguarf is a liquid and is rolled on.
This fella doesn’t have a clue as to what he is doing. I’m glad there are so many DIY out there. Keeps professional installers like myself busy year round.
Jonathan Warren More of a clue than you. silvabrothers.com
Psst... You must be new. You do realize this guy runs a multi-million dollar company as a contractor right? Get some business and quit judging people.
It's much easier, faster,and cleaner if you were lay your cut peace of membrane on the floor and trowel your morter on the membrane as if you were glueing wallpaper.Then simply grab each corner and hang again as if you were hanging wallpaper !!!! This will save you so much time!!!
Nope - you couldn't be more wrong. The thinset mortar also levels the cement board. Go to the Schluter website, download the installation instructions for Kerdi and read the instructions.
Nope. That absolutely won't work with this system. You'll make a tremendous mess and you will almost definitely not have a flat floor when you're finished.
*or a flat wall if you're doing the walls. Besides, where would you have the room to lay out a 3x8 piece of membrane to spread thinset, fold it up without making a huge mess and then get it hung with 10 pounds of thinset trying to pull it off the wall while you try to spread it out.
If you used GP DensShield® Tile Backer you wouldn't have to do any of this. Wonder board is just awful material.
How about the pipe under the drain 🤔
5:23 A drain to nowhere...
Always enjoy watching Tommy, just wish he would call it thinset instead of adhesive.
Seems dumb to me id rather red guard for a quarter of the price.
HIGHLY agree
why not use redgard on the walls?
Particular reason why he keeps calling unmodified cement, adhesive? Literally going to confuse anyone watching this.
You have to use unmodified thinset with those products or it won't dry
@@@GetToThePointplz123 that is mostly correct. In trying to keep things simple schluter, wedi, goboard etc...prescribe UNmodified thinset, but that is not entirely required. Schluter in fact says their allset product is also recommended, and it is a modified thinset. Here's why: modified mortars normally need to evaporate in order to cure. Putting big tiles on an impervious membrane would require massive cure times or simply not cure, so that is why they generically prescribe Unmodified mortars. However, there are two situations where a modified mortar will work. First, if your tile is less than about six inches on each side, such as 3x6 subway or mosaic sheets, both of which provide ample open surface to cure/dry. Second high quality modified mortars have polymers that can still cure even over impervious membranes/wall boards. This includes schluter allset and mapei large tile and stone thinset, for example. The advantage of these modified mortars is that they are engineered to out perform the Unmodified thinsets.
My two cents worth based on discussions with said manufacturers.
@@KevininSC thanks.
I've ripped out many of these leakers
What failed in your situations?
After the adhesive dries you could actually take a shower...
Then why bother putting tile on it?
his mortar is way too wet
For tile, yes, but not for the membrane. You need to be able to squeeze some of it out and remove the bubbles. The extra water in the mortar reacts with the membrane and it dries ROCK HARD.
A 60 room hotel, had 3 failures a year from using foam under tile/ concrete when the 300 lb girlfriend/boyfriend stepped into the shower with high heals. To be "industrial", skip the foam and build up with concrete.
I wish they could work on my old house instead of the lazy, useless contractors I've been able to find.🙁
Denshield makes more sense....
Wow the guy who normally sells ferraris for 250,000 now fallen on hard times.
Good product, of which their are many other alternatives. Schluter’S system is obscenely expensive, mainly due to their “ pyramid scheme” distribution model. Schluter sells to distributors, who then sell to dealers, who then sell to the trade, who then install in your home. How many layers of markup can you put in the middle of the manufacture snd the consumer until the end user is getting SCREWED ???!!!
So wait the shower drain doesn't have to be connected to the drain pipe
The Schluter is for rich people these people I would give them a bucket of redguard and a brush.
3 walls with cement board with orange membrane is ok.
Wafer board and styrofoam on the floor along with a flimsy drain!?!?!?
Planned obsolescence!!!!😲😬
It seems crazy but the extra wet mortar reacts with the membrane and it dries rock solid.
Literally every video on youtube when people use pre fab shower pans they are pouring buckets of cement or hot mopping the hell out of the sub floor? You guys just put it on top of the subfloor and sealed it. UNREAL. So literally no one on here knows how to put in a shower pan except you guys? This is too funny.
Red guard easier and quicker
Redgard is way easier to use. Just paint on and thats it.
Wish he would stop saying “adhesive”. It’s thinset. Sure, it “adheres” things together but almost everyone will think of adhesive as glue. This is not glue. It is essentially lightweight cement.
And they want to charge me $5k for this?
I wish there were electricians around me that could do this work in this day and age or at least return a phone call.
*2:22** putting adhesive into corner...*
It's NOT adhesive, its thinset, the thinset isn't waterproof, crap system and overpriced.
The thinset is a type of adhesive - it is what STICKS everything together.
You are correct - the thinset is not waterproof. But the membrane IS waterproof. When the corners are covered with a 5" band, providing 2" of overlap on both walls, it creates a waterproof system.
The system is very versatile, and completely waterproof when installed correctly.
@@retrojohnny77 it is a coin toss which I would never be willing to take... I don't want a failure and this system lends itself to exactly that.
Besides it being ridiculously priced oh, there are much cheaper and more monolithic methods out there then to ever take a chance on this crap. A liquid tropical membrane like Red Guard, aquadefense, Hydro ban, or Ardex 8+9 are all better
Or just use aqua defense or redguard instead of this nonsense
Right, overly hyped nonsense at that!
I heard schluter-baytah sucks. Money grab
Foam shit if fucking trash (15 year tile layer) juat wait 10 years when you 5k bathroom floor turns to hell
this guy hasn't grasped the simple fact that water runs downhill or he would be starting from the bottom up...
So no real water proofing? I call rubbish on this. I've used these but in combination with an actual sealant covering *all* surfaces. Water damage is really expensive to fix, and sealant is cheap, and easy to apply.
I call rubbish on your comment since you obviously have NO idea that the Kerdi system is waterproofing. You obviously have no idea about the product or how it works. Kerdi is a waterproof membrane. Another self proclaimed Internet expert who just demonstrated how ignorant he is.
Exactly what Buckhorn said. The Schluter Kerdi sheet membrane IS the waterproofing. There is absolutely no need for additional liquid applied sealants on top of kerdi, nor is it recommended. Why post comments about something you don't know? You obviously have never used this product like you said you have...
This method of building a shower is a joke. The fact of the matter is that the manufacturers charge so much for these materials that for the same cost one can pay an actual tile Setter to do an actual shower the proper, the International Building Code compliant way, which this is not.
BS. Kerdi is a waterproof membrane and meets building codes. You've just demonstrated you have no idea what you're talking about.
You're an idiot. Most GOOD, PROFESSIONAL tile setter are using this system and have been for years.
I think you’ve snorted to much grout
Seems like an awful lot of wasted time and money...just tile the damn thing.
Or you can just use go board and not have to waste all your time installing membrane.
He couldn't have installed this Schluter Kerdi system more wrong. Not being picky but you have to get trained by Schluter to be able to put these in. Clearly he wasn't. I put these in all the time.
Since when do you have to be trained my Schluter? I've been using it for three years and have other contractor friends who have been using it for at least six years. None of us have ever needed to go to any training classes. You study their literature and follow the instructions. It's not rocket surgery.
Frank have you been snorting silicone again?