Videos like this are why this is arguably the best tile setting channel on UA-cam. Slow and meticulous detective work, analyzing the evidence and drawing a conclusion based on the facts. Takes years of experience in the trades to do this correctly. Kudos sir, kudos.
Exactly! I'm on a 12x24 porcelain tile install through out an entire first level of new construction. Only issue is the customer has in floor radiant water heating. So, when the homeowner's son and friends installed that radiant floor 5/8" foil covered board over the existing 3/4" osb, it was not to my standards. Lippage and dips, etc So now, even with tile leveling clips and a 1/2" trowel, I'm running into issues everywhere! Shittiest of all is I just wanna play music for a living but it doesn't pay the bills so a house full of tile, shower and tub surround, 3 backsplashes will have to suffice!😂
Obviously this is a handy man special tile job. Rather than use another 10 dollar bag of mortar to float the floor, they use Styrofoam! probably a pin hole leak breached the floor causing the water to get under everything. This is why when doing a shower pan, its important to do it the right way!
Great video. I have been installing kerdi for 15 years. In every shower I install. Each seam of the board, pan, and curb. Is glued and sealed together with kerdi fix urethane. Then installation of the inside corners and seam kerdi band. Flood testing for 24 hours. Before final tile instal. Every shower should be flood tested for 24 hours before tile installation. I was taught by a master tile setter with 40 years experience in the trade. I have been installing tile since 1993. Again, Excellent video, calling out subpar installation. I am still a fan of a true mud set shower, as they will last if done properly, for over 100 years.
@@bojanglesobrien6883The key is to do this test the day after the system has cured. That saves so much heartache. Easier to rip it out rather than the tile too.
My mud set shower is 70 years old and still great. Ugly colors of pink and white. I’m in the midst of a remodel of both bathrooms. Already removed one, let’s just say it was built to last. Was super difficult to remove! After redoing the first bath I’m not looking forward to the second bath.
I actually have to apologize for a comment I made on one of your videos about a year ago. I didn't watch the entire video and made a judgement without all the info and I'm sorry, you are a true pro
He’s probably been stewing about your comment for the past how many months but just didn’t say anything. Poor guy. Now that you’ve apologized he can tile with confidence again.
Let me get this straight my apology 2 tile coach what's something you felt so strongly about that you had to turn into a joke and type it out in the comments? Must be a slow night at Depot huh
@marcgambone4240 I too analyze and re-analyze things I've said and done in the past too. Ignore the jackasses above, it takes a good person to admit their misconceptions and make amends. I salute you. Most people don't even know how to apologize let alone admit they've made a mistake
I noticed it didn't overlap in the curb/wall corners. The band went edge-to-edge with no overlap leaving a seam where the two edges meet... absolutely correct in saying the lack of inside corner caused this to leak the way it did. Great video! Thanks for taking the time to do this.
This is the type of problem I wanted to avoid. I wanted a professional tile setter to do my shower using the Kerdi Schluter system, but I knew he had zero experience with same. So, I made it my business to educate myself on its installation practices and then I guided him doing the work. I also made sure I bought the materials rather than let him try to figure it out. That was 8 years ago and so far, not a sign of any leak.
I agree. Just think - its multiple pieces of material held together by thinset to make it waterproof. How can it not fail eventually? I would definitely put a membrane of some sort under all of this.
Way back when Kerdi showers started they didn’t have premade corner we used to have to make them from the kerdi band. I used to put some silicone in the corner of the ones we had to make just for good measure. I enjoyed your video sir well done.
These were my thoughts exactly! When we first started using Kerdi systems they didn’t even make a preformed corner; in fact they used to teach in their classes how to make the corners using a small slice & fold method…ultimately this leads me to a greater problem - If we’re diagnosing the issue on this shower as “lack of preformed corners”….what about the thousands of Kerdi showers installed before they existed? Makes me curious as to whether there were additional issues going on here as well… As always, another great video! I’m forwarding this one on to my Schluter rep for his opinion, as I’m not quite convinced the lack of premade corners was the end all… I also remember they used to teach “kind of under the radar” that the 2” overlap is far greater than the furthest distance water would ever wick through the thinset…in other words if you missed a spot or two with slightly less than 2” overlap you’re still in the clear.
As a builder the type of jobs I hate doing the most would be fixing exterior rot from water damage. That being said It taught me how important flashing and caulking everything on the wall is. A lot of builders don’t flash pipes and small things but they all can cause water to get in and cause major damage. Lessons can always be learned from others failures and makes you a better installer!
The devil in the DETAILS! it is true IN ALL FIELDS -- I am a computer specialist, but I grew up in a family, GENERATIONS, of master masons & ARCHITECHTS.... In all trades there should be attention for THE LITTLE DETAILS!
This is very true. From watching the Build Show is the majority of issues in building are installer related. Second aspect is when you caulk or flash you also have to think what you are sealing in. Trapping water causes a lot of damage as well.
I find just the opposite. It is more trouble fixing it inside because the outside walls are fine, but you have to rip them out to get to the problem. Outside is rotted, you just cut it out and toss it.
@@jasonroets660 Good point. One needs to think about how water gets out, if it should ever get in. And there is moisture in the form of vapor that can come from unexpected sources that can get into these seemingly sealed areas... if it can't get out, trouble.
you aint flashing a curb sir. but membrane should run over the curb and under your hardy. GLHF. Surely 2 no.2 pine and some membrane is cheaper than a prefab
What great information for those of us getting ready to install a new shower system. I'd suggest that the other inside corners not shown in this video are also leaking....not just the two in the front. If he didn't place corners in the front, I doubt he placed them in the back as well possibly resulting in leaking and rot where not as obvious. Thank you for sharing this with us. I found it extremely helpful!!
I figured immediately there were no inside corners. Also seems the installer either cut down the Kerdi band or used a sliver of wall covering. I'm so glad I slathered Ardex 8+9 all over my Kerdi kit pan a foot above and a foot in front. Also around any Kerdi on Kerdi joints like the hand shower and waterfall pipes sticking through. All thanks to Isaac's advice. My inside corners, pan, drain, and outside corners are all double waterproof. Next shower will be Flo-FX and Laticrete Thankfully then I'm done. Isaac, I love you being my tile coach.
Very glad this video popped up. I'm about to replace my tub with a Kerdi board shower kit. Glad to see this was contractor error rather than the system failing. I'll be watching more videos to ensure I don't miss anything! Thanks guys!
I'm in the same process. I was hundred percent sure it was an installer error rather than a system failure and when I saw that corner band missing I was so relieved
It isn't contractor error..it is system error...you don't place your shower life on some dingbat that promotes a particular type of system while blaming contractors ...Schluter actually train unknowns with little experience in construction systems, as installers, as average tradies do not want to use such comprehensive, expensive and weak systems.
I appreciate you taking the time to investigate the cause. I used The Kerdi system in my shower. I watched many videos and was very careful to do it as directed. I used inside corners but if I’m not mistaken they say you can just lap the corners. Seeing this kind of worries me. I went back to the old school liner after trying the Kerdi system on my own shower. I have never had a rubber liner leak.
I've been installing schluter showers for several years. The company has seminars all over the country for training. I highly recommend them to any contractor who wants his installers to get some hands on training. It's better than learning on a customer's shower.
Reading spec is important in general. If you can read you can figure out proper installation without the courses. However, I've taken both first and second level. I learned quite a bit beyond what id even use. If the kerdi/ditra fails... 99% of the time the installer 100%. Schluter will come to the house and rip the shower apart to find if ifs product failure or install failure
I just took the workshop and it was amazing!! You really learn so much and I’m so amazed it’s free! If you are more than 100 miles away you get free hotel stay too!
@@natashatheresa I wasn't too far from home when I went and they still offered. I called my girlfriend and we got to enjoy a great hotel with indoor pool and Jacuzzi. They also served all of us a catered dinner.. really nice.
@@therustydrummer995 that’s cool you got a hotel still. They did ask me when I confirmed on the phone if I was sure I didn’t need one… but I felt guilty bc I was 15 min away hahaha. Next time though I will go for it lol!
We never use those preformed curbs. We laminate 2" boards together. It feels much stronger and allows us to do custom curb heights. That thin film is probably the glue they use to laminate the membrane to the foam. It also looks like they used the wrong thinset and a little too thick of a trowel when banding. We always use All-Set. It's worth the little extra money not to have to worry.
I watch your channel, and Sal's channel regularly. You are both masters at what you do, and it's much appreciated by us regular people, that you show your work. I haven't done a shower pan yet, but will be renovating our master. Tips and tricks like this, make it possible for us to carry out projects like this. Thank you very much, to you and Mr. Diblasi.
I thought about a Schluter system for our new shower but decided on the traditional rubber membrane, as convinced by my tile guy. Glad I did. He is familiar with a traditional install and knows all the details. The Schluter system may be great if all precautions in construction is understood but I'd rather not deal with forcing a new install process on an installer that hasn't done it before. Best to trust the pros on what their used to unless you're there as the expert instructor. No thanks.
Watching your channel convinced me to use Laticrete Spectra Pro Epoxy grout on my shower pan so I can sleep at night knowing my floor is waterproof pre membrane.
Professionals here in Germany use Kerdi all the time for tiled, floor leveled showers. Always exactly follow manufacturer's instruction and the system works perfectly fine.
This video was fantastic. It is so important to do things correctly and follow the education provided by a company like Schluter. Those booklets that they provide with their products are so full of information and if reading isn’t your thing….there’s a wealth of information on UA-cam from channels like this. Oh and yeah….there’s also a phone number for Schulter you can call to basically answer any questions one might have. Great informative video
When I did my showers, I went with a $600 tray/ (tile-able) base. I think it's just money well spent for an amateur like me. This is what I was afraid about. Screwing up a corner and creating a leak, then having to remove everything to fix it. If you're a Pro like the Tile Coach, he's not going to screw up the Kerdi stuff, but the rest of us, these things can and will happen. Water's just amazing. it's going to find the smallest crack to get through and leak.
Appreciate you guys didn't just trash the previous installer. He probably genuinely didn't know, however in today's information age there really is no reason for you to install things incorrectly. But there is a lot more laziness.
I’ve been using schluter systems for over 12 years almost exclusively. Never had a failure or a callback. I do over a dozen showers a year entirely from repeat customers and word of mouth. If the system is installed properly with the proper materials there shouldn’t be any issues. That being said if I had someone to teach me the old school ways when I was starting out I would have been happy to learn.
You could have small failures that you don’t know about….That’s what Schluter reps say to guys who still use pan liners, but I think Kerdi has more chances of failures.
So what do you think the issue here was? The corner not being tall enough, the layers not being the right proprietary corner? I am looking to do a shower and want to know if these little nuances will be the pitfall of my build. This system looks and feels flawless from other channels' installs, but this pokes some holes in those.. I feel like a normal hot mop and other traditional methods are more fool proof in a sense when compared to the layered design of Schluter.
@@akzorz9197 I think Isaac was dead on. The main issue was the corners not being properly sealed. For someone new to the system. I would just use the prefabricated corners with the 5 in band making sure you have a minimum 2 in overlap everywhere. Also use the more expensive schluter allset to take the guess work out of what type of thinset you need. From what Isaac’s test videos has shown us it creates a much more waterproof seal anyways. Consistency of the thinset matters as well. It needs to be a little looser when doing the banding. I like it to just barely hold a trowel notch. For larger format tiles the overlapping is not a issue but for small tiles it can be. I like to take the left over thinset and feather out around the banding kind of like you do with drywall mud and tape. As for other systems they can all have issues just depends on the installer. There is not a system out there that someone can’t figure out how to screw up. Best of luck to you.
The best product improperly used can fail just like the cheapest solution. Hacks hide behind the hype of a products reputation, when in truth, the product is at most half of the equation.
Have mud bed showers 30 years old in great condition. Fix multiple Kerdi installs a year. Expensive product for people who don't know what they are doing.
@@raymondsiewert2720 I think it's the only way to go. It's virtually bulletproof if done right. All you need to worry about are corners and the drain areas.
@@sbin01 You have 30 year old mud bed showers in great condition because the ones done wrong have failed a long time ago. You fix multiple Kerdi installs a year because you won't see the ones done right, which will be the ones that will still be fine in 30 years as well.
Isaac, you have taught me so much about this sort of situation, i watched your videos regarding schluter installation and shower pans and rip outs etc. etc.... I was a total greenhorn when it came to waterproofing and tiling a shower, i watched you guys for awhile and then went for it!! and now i have a beautiful shower and am doing tile work for others. Thank You!!!
Thanks, I've seen this post for a while, but have not viewed it. I'm currently doing a shower in my house using the schluter system and am very nervous. I have watched many of yours and Sal's videos for directions. Hopefully from what I learned today I can finish this first time shower install and not screw it up.
I used Kerdi to build my 4x5’ walk-in shower 3 years ago and no problems whatsoever. Just follow the instructions very closely and watch lots of videos of pros installing Kerdi systems. Those pre-formed corners are extremely important!
that "band" that covers 1 3/8" (at 12:47) of the shower floor is not band. It had to be kerdi membrane cut to act as the band. At 15:40 you mention unmodified thinset as being problematic, but Schluter calls for unmodified. i appreciate your forensics. extremely educational to see that process and learn from it. can't wait to see the video on the fix.
schluter requires modified specifically ( all set) for all membrane, kerdi band , and corners, anything pertaining to potential contact with water ! There is no reason not to use( all set) on the entire shower build and tile setting process
I finished my bathroom project months ago but still find myself watching your videos. Great stuff man, keep up the good work. You’re saving people thousands
There's no substitute for experience. It takes a lot of effort to produce these types of videos. I'm a diy'er with a fair degree of capability in the building trades. I've done several of my own personal tile projects and learned from my mistakes. We can never stop learning especially when there is someone like Tile Coach to share his knowledge and experience. Thank you Tile Coach for putting out the effort to help your fellow man with these videos.
I keep it old-school. Prepitch,panliner 2stage drain and durock walls held at 1.5in above the panliner. etc. I build my seats with block directly on top of the mudpan. I'm not knocking the new tech, but there are so many videos of failures, even when installed to manufacturers' specs.
That’s why I applied Aqua Defense on top of my kerdi joints and the entire floor pan areas. I did three coats and a lot of tests to it before tiling. Perfection…
@@aarondixon3532 i painted entirely the pan and up to the bench. Then…rest of the joints. I agreed with you…insane system (kerdi plus aqua defense). The aqua defense adheres so well to the kerdi that it’s impressive.
@@roberthooper8883 you could…but my wood house tend to expand/contract quite a bit between seasons. So I wouldn’t depend only on a liquid membrane like aqua defense. I like the peace of mind of having two membranes (solid plus liquid). Not that much expensive…
Done several Kerdi showers...we never rely on just the banding, instead we bring the wall material down over the pan a good 6"...Also even using the preformed pans, I put a whole other sheet over the pan with a second layer overlapping the side material, mainly because it gets walked on doing the walls and I always feared puncturing it. A bit of overkill, but lots of overlap has kept me from having to go back
It seems like the original installer did some research to install kerdi, especially considering it’s outside of his normal system he’s used to. I’m really surprised he missed the corners. I mean, common sense tells you that’s a critical component. Bummer all that tile work is all a waste now. Good work finding the culprit!
My exact thoughts. It was looking really good at first and my heart was sinking thinking of all the tile showers out there I have built with this system. I have not got a call back yet, but this made me nervous. I was relieved, but shocked to see he left out one of the most critical components of the system.
Been Doing Tile since 1979. I learned from The Union in California. I have Floated with cement for most of the years. I am not comfortable with the styrofoam insulation on the dam. Even with the tape overlapping. I like the rubber membrane, and floating for floor. I do like schluter for walls and shelves though.
Part of the problem too is that people don't understand grout will accept water and allow it to get through it so one way to help prevent that is by using epoxy grout
We did two bathrooms six years ago using Kerdi membrane for showers and bathroom floors, Kerdi shower pans and curbs. My wife did all the Kerdi work and tile. Nothing complicated but you do need to follow manufacturer specifications.
Yes, the key is following the manufacturer's specifications! Kerdi has specific adhesive for their systems but many installers use the same thin set or adhesives as they might use with other materials and that may not be the best thing to use with this type of system.
Love your videos. I was an installer for years. I prefer the liner...Hardie board mud floor system. Makes for a strong, water proof wall...and a good strong floor..not styrofoam. I almost went for this system in my house but went old school. Lots of failures with that system. You are a great teacher and problem solver. Cheers!
Not if you do it correctly. Hardi board is normally only used over wood sub floors by journeyman tilesetters not walls. I use the kerdi system but I don’t like their foam pans. I use their curb and patch it full of thin set so it makes it pretty solid wait for it to dry and then dry pack the floor the conventional way and then kerdi over it. Been doing it this way for years and works great.
Thanks tons friend. I am getting ready to do an Oatey liner and the customer was trying to talk me into doing a Kerdi system. I love the floor system they have but just don't like not having a complete non cut corner like I have done many times with Oatey. Your efforts are appreciated and I hope you get business due to your efforts to help us all. Thanks again my friend.
This is why I always flood test my pans for 24 hours before I install tile. All it takes is something like forgetting a corner, with a flood test you will see that thing pour out water
Good vid👍 When I was new to kerdi - I read up and followed the instructions - proper inside/outside corners. But more importantly, how does water flow, dont have areas where water can stand, common sense! I will be using Kerdi on my master bath reno. Cheers
The fact that the kerdyi membrane is braking like wet paper is scarry to me. That should be capable to stay submerged without problem, is shower pan. Good job TileCoach!
And you are right it took me two months to learn the Schluter Kerdi shower installation, you have to just follow the instructions and it will be fine, if you make any changes to what Schluter gave you then you are in trouble. But thanks for the video really appreciate seeing errors that come up if you go your own way.
Good forensics Bro! Definitely no inside corner is the problem, also the curb is strange, it might be the Kerdi knock off curb- I’ve seen it for sale and they make it orange with grid pattern to look like Kerdi
After watching many of these failures over the years I decided to go a different route. I chose a composite prefabricated shower pan and had a fabricator make and install solid surface walls. The amount of money and work creating a beautiful new bath or shower using tile and all of these modern waterproofing methods is just too risky. One great advantage I now have is no need for highly offensive tile and grout cleaners. The second advantage is a lower cost and longer lifespan.
When Schluter and Kerdi were first introduced to me the manufacturer specified using unmodified thinset to attach their fabrics. I did a steam shower according to their instructions and I have no idea if it's still functioning correctly since it's been almost 25 years and I've been retired for half that time. The way that kerdi band releases from the curb, floor and wall tells me it's not a very good bond and it would be subject to failure on all kerdi systems. I always did a traditional mud floor and curb and Dens Shield wall board. Never had a problem with that system. Even Redgard is suspect to failure. All this high tech materials and such are no match for the old way of mud shower pans.
Glad you mentioned that about using a bucket to fill up the pan for the flood test. Great job as always guys. We love watching your videos down here in south west Georgia USA
Exactly why I always recommend going old school my pops taught me right and I'll stay that way for a long time. I'm happy to see those new products fail.
It's a little heart breaking to see you tearing that out. Aside from the obvious issues with the installation the old school installer did a good looking job. Thanks for the good information.
This is a good postmortem. I use mortar (pre-slope, rubber pan, etc.), and durock and never have a problem. It’s half the price of Kerdi, and will last until someone decides to rip it out for the look of new tile.
I use the WEDI system. So far it’s worked every time. No callbacks yet. 🤞 it is a bit expensive though. But so are most of these waterproofing systems. I feel like using thin set as a adhesive is the problem here. Thinset modified or unmodified is porous, definitely doesn’t seem like a waterproof adhesive to me. I even use some of the WEDI adhesive on any sub liner as well as the recommended thinset. It seals the seams and then covers the seams 100%. Good luck everyone
exactly. where he pulled off the pc that covered where top of curb meets the wall it appeared to be well applied yet was still wet underneath. schluter has WAY too many layers for me. obviously doesn't help to seal it up.
Great video but one thing confusing me here. Schluter recommend the use of unmodified thinset only when bonding overlapped seams and connections to Kerdi membranes. Obviously the biggest failure of this install was lack of inside corners.
Has this been changed? When I installed my shower in 2016, they recommended modified thin set. Shower is thankfully still holding up 7 years later. Man, time flies.
Hey brother, first, THANK YOU for taking the time to make these videos and help the diyers like myself. The way you explain things really helps. Quick question…..my membrane say to use UN-modified thinset and not modified. I’m getting conflicting info from everywhere. What are your thoughts/suggestions on which to use?
I know i am gonna take a lot of heat for this but....when i watch these kerdi shower install videos, I just cant understand why anyone would go through all of this, instead of ordering a custom fiberglass tileable shower pan. They are affordable and ready to go. I have used a few of them in my own projects and they installed in a few hours, including the waterproof wall panels. One piece pan, instead of all these steps, adhesives, felts, etc. Several years and no trouble from any of mine.
I have used fiberglass pans and hate them. No strength to them. When a person steps onto the pan there is movement. I swear by the Shleuter system. Have built many custom showers and have not had a problem with any of them.
@@brettbarager9101 yes i suppose the quality does vary from one company to the next...i can only speak for the ones i used, all from the same company here in canada, they are solid.
The Kerdi system looks like an awesome system if installed correctly. But I never had issues with cement board then thinset the screw holes and seams then redguard a minimum of 6 foot high on walls. Floor i lightly thinset the mud pre slope then red guard whole entire floor and same with the curb. Redguard is key and allows for alot of movement with expanding and retracting during our different seasons here in the upper Midwest
@@marke2401 redguard isn't really a " system ". I like to look at it like great insurance. And you tore out bad shower builds. Most likely not because of redguard
Thanks dude it’s been about 20 years since I’ve plumbed up a shower n pan this is good to know I’m about to redo my bathrooms so it’ll get good use out of the info thanks much remember don’t chew your finger nails
This is EXACTLY why I coat all of my finished Schulter shower systems with 3 thin layers of REDGUARD as a second layer of waterproofing. Water WILL find a way to wick into non-modified thinset through capillary action and ultimately soften and weaken the bonds between the Kerdi fabric leading to the very failure that's observed here.
@@charlieconustedes9969 Redguard is a great product by itself, so you're correct in that is could be used by itself. Though in my experience, Schluter is what customers expect when paying for more expensive installations,. So to shore up the inherent weaknesses of the Schluter bonding system at the seams (e.g. Schluter's insistence on the use of non-modified thinset), I use Redguard to solve that problem. Another alternative is to skip the Redguard altogether and use Schulter's MODIFIED thinset (called "All Set"), but it's hard to get locally where I'm at and expensive compared to using non-modified with few coats of Redguard. Hope that's helpful...
Be happy he didn’t use it. Old school lately run let Liners are the superior method. Then hardy board with rescuers for the walls. The shower tile Will be out of style Before it fails.
A flood test (part of the supplier’s recommendations) would have likely exposed this before the tile was installed. Following the supplier’s installation instructions would have yielded a good shower system.
My husband and I DIY remodeled our two down-to-the-studs 1981 original builder grade bathrooms in 2015 (bath/shower combo surround and 2016 (curb-less walk-in shower) using Schluter systems and products. So far, everything Schluter in our 2nd story bathrooms is performing as expected. We didn’t just demo the old bathrooms and wing it by watching random UA-cam videos and asking Home Depot and Lowe’s employees (too often that’s a recipe for disaster even for relatively small DYI projects). Our local tile shop where we purchased/ordered the majority of the Schluter products was quite helpful, but it was the access to the Schluter website and education videos, technician support, and the Schluter Innovation #1 workshop that ensured our bathroom remodels were successful. We spent a *lot* of time learning and evaluating different methods and product lines before we began the projects. We ultimately decided we wanted a 21st century bath & shower areas, not the typical San Diego “hot mop” shower base. Tradespeople should also invest the time to learn about new products and systems before they start experimenting or mix-n-match different system products. Anyone can learn how to use Schluter systems and product effectively. Schluter not only provides detailed installation videos about their systems, products, and how to use them correctly, but in our experience they have great technician support by phone and email. As homeowner DIYers, we had *lots* of questions before, during, and even after our bathroom remodels. Schluter also offers a variety of free* comprehensive hands-on classes/workshops in major cities all around North America. Anyone working in the tile trade (including sales staff at tile/flooring stores) should participate in the initial Innovation Workshop even if just to become familiar with the Schluter systems and products. We attended the two day Innovation #1 workshop (I think the workshop registration may require an occupational association with the tile/building trades now). *overnight accommodation and meals are compliments of Schluter; travel expenses to/from the event are not covered.
Isaac you rock dude! Thank you so much for taking the time to show us this. I'm researching installing a shower system and this video was totally helpful!
I believe the schluder shower pan is a good system but it requires specific details like the proper membrane and thinset, corners, etc, where it makes me feel there are more room for mistakes. I’ve switched back to using kerdi membrane as a rubber liner with schluder adhesive around the drain and the four screws in the drain system and have not had any problems. It makes me sleep better at night knowing there is a solid sheet cook g up the wall behind the mortar. I also use kerdi over mortar as waterproofing.
Great video. Been doing tile for 20 years. Don't believe the hype on kerdi and wedi systems.Panliner, Fiberock or durock walls, mud and tape joints, mudpan, redguard or hydroban niches, benches and curbs.Steam showers need to be completely waterproofed with a pitched ceiling. Never had a fail. Ive ripped out showers to update them that I did 10 years prior. Perfect behind everything.
@@kyledennis6772 usually shluter trim. Depends on the customer or designer. Sometimes marble sills, sometimes mitered corners $$$. Bullnose is almost non existent now.
@@danielbonner8309 It’s how I was taught. I suppose in some parts of the country using mastic to tile over greenboard still acceptable. Just depends on building codes and tradition..
I’m glad to see this thank you. We put the corners in but recently dialed the water test. We will go back and overlap but was surprised to have failed water test after we did it according to spec.
that’s why i don’t mess with all these new age methods, i pre slope then pan liner, use pebbles at the drain and scratch and float the walls… old school, never had a call back
I've been doing research to install my own shower and your channel is priceless! As a DIY'er I'm not going to use the Kerdi system. I'm leaning towards Hydroban for my shower for 2 reasons , #1 I'm just not ok with the amount of wicking that takes place with Kerdi, basically if you pack on enough layers and do it the way they say it won't LEAK enough to LEAK...sorry I'm not good with that . #2 This is my first shower install and I don't feel the product has any room for error , I actually feel like it barely works if you do it perfect!! I've been extremely competent in all my diy projects.. I've been doing months of research on waterproofing a shower before I begin, I have no doubt I can follow the instructions to a "T" but it's not worth the risk IMO.
Exactly, I feel the same! I think that's why Tile Coach covers his kerdi with a layer of Ardex 8+9 or similar. That way no water even reaches the Kerdi. That's all I trust it for as well, is a backup.
@@palmerstile9379 Maybe. But I know several GCs in Europe, one in Germany (home of Schluter) and they never see anyone waterproofing indoor pools and steamrooms with that stuff (most every residential and commercial pool is indoor in those climates). They all use their version of 8+9 or Hydroban and do several coats. None of that Kerdi or redguard plyable weak stuff. Also all pools are tiled there, no plaster.
Very informative Issac, i use kerdi membrane all the time and form my own pans/curbs. The thin set they used seems unmodified with the amount of seepage (besides the fact they didn't use inside corners). Love the investigation, its nice to see what happens when things goes south. Gained a sub thanks!
I started coating all my kerdi showers with red guard membrane or an equivalent especially on the corners and joints where bands are required. I haven’t had a call back and I have been finding these videos and am taking extra steps to keep it that way. Always use the prefab corners and bands! You can’t skip steps or parts with a shower or bath, that’s just shooting yourself in the foot.
How long have you been doing this? I am DIYer remodeling our Masterbath into a large walk-in shower. I am following all Kerdi instructions but this sounds like a very good idea. How long have you been coating the Kerdi with red guard? Did you talk to Kerdi before doing this about the warranty?
Why don’t you just learn to do it right. Use a proper membrane/hot mop, float your showers and pans, paper wire behind them. Your walls will be level, flat, square, stronger and You don’t waste $100s on a bunch of plastic.
People have complained about the smell of a hot mop process, but it does provide a very good protective layer. It can even be used on decks and ponds. The smell goes away after a day or two. Sooner if you force ventilate it.
@@FJB2020 i only go over any seams on the kerdi pan. Just makes me feel better. Ive been seeing more and more seam failures and it really doesn’t look like its the installers fault. However it was definitely the installers fault in this video.
This is why I stick to hot mopping and floating. Its simply the best method and I never get leaks in my showers. Yes there are always gonna be other methods, but why settle for the quick and cheap method. Just stick to the old school methods and not have issues. I tell all my clients that I won't stray from the traditional hot mop and float method and I put a garuntee on all my showers that they won't leak from the pan or from underneath the curb.
I like your FloFX hat!! I bought a FloFX drain just from watching your videos. Love these videos, I am so torn between doing a sheet membrane or liquid applied on my shower. Videos like this make me go to Liquid applied more, then you put one out for the liquid applied and then I am back to sheet membrane. Its all in the install!!
Change isnt always good. Ive done many showers with a rubber liner and none of them leaked. Kerdi isnt any faster and uses more mud with more steps I can install a shower base in half a day and skim it for pitch. Install backer board on walls and be tile ready by day 3. Ill stick with what works for me and for decades before kerdy came along. Educating homeowners also helps tile and grout last decades. Using premium grout that doesnt need sealer also helps.
Schluter's recommendation is to use unmodified thinset mortar when installing Kerdi over most shower substrates. Is there a reason why you mentioned unmodified possibly being a problem?
Two corrections: 1) Unmodified thinset is not a problem under the Kerdi-Band as you said, in fact it is preferred. Modified thinset dries slower when trapped between 2 waterproof layers, and heavily-modified thinsets under Kerdi-Band can cause it to fail. Schluter had to replace a bunch on warranty before requiring unmodified. 2) Inside corners are not required for a successful installs. His real error was not wrapping the Kerdi-Band thru the corner. You got the leak point right, but wrapped corners work great. You only slit the bottom half of the Kerdi-Band, and it then makes 2 overlapping lower flaps when you nestle it in the corner. Always stop Kerdi-Band in the middle of a wall, never in a corner. Wrapping instead of using preformed corners seals just as well and avoids having as much build up in the corner to make for a better, flatter tile install.
The unmodified thinset just absorbs water and wicks water up walls and curbs and under membrane. This has been proven to the point that schluter made their modified thinset.
I personally called Schluter to ask them about the thinset mortar and they said they stand behind the Schluter All-Set modified mortar. They do not warranty their system using another brands unmodified thinset.
@@jimlally2888 Yes of course they want to sell you their own mortar now that they make one. 'Not standing behind' other mortars does not at all mean the others caused a failure. Before they made their own mortar, they did warrant hundreds of thousands of floors for decades with other brands of unmodified mortar, which did just fine (and still are).
I was worried about my old school showers built a couple years ago using no waterproofing except rubber pan liner and breaking all the rules I've seen on youtube....starting to feel better about them now;)
Goes to show that even if you're using superior products, you have to hire great installers. I did my bathroom about 8 years ago with Schluter products and not a problem. The guys were certified professionals!
Thinsetting tile on top of plastic is not a superior product. You know the proper way to do it is use a real waterproof membrane and then float your walls and the shower pan so that everything is level square flat and of course waterproof.
Excellent video. Thanks for doing this. Looks like he also grouted the corners and no silicone? Properly sealed and maintained this problem wouldn't have shown up in the first place. I know people are concerned about the seepage factor. But I'm betting we will always find a bigger problem like this before seepage shows up. With proper silicone and inside corners, there would be no water under there to seep.
it does not just seep in through the corners, grout and many types of tile themselves are indeed permeable at some rate of transmission, cementenous grout being quite permeable to moisture. the mud bed under the floor will indeed take on moisture and need to expel it out the weeps over time, that is why every shower waterproofing system includes weepers /sub-drain system under the main drain flange that allows the mortar bed to be able to drain as well, weather it is a thin bed of just the tile setting material built up, or a full thickness traditional mud bed they all include this detail, so it is clear that the floor systems are not ever expected to be waterproof, the corner caulk or grout is never where water is contained, it always happens at the membrane plane, be it a pvc liner underneath a mortar bed, or a roll on or set on membrane directly under the tile. The plane of water containment is clearly at the membrane in the systems, and never at the tile surface or grout/caulk joints. Grout and caulk are always considered strictly cosmetic/load bearing even at times, but never the boundary of water containment. This fallacy has caused many to point at the corner joints, on the tile install as some critical point of failure, when ALL the different shower systems on the market clearly instruct that the plane of the membrane, and its installation is where the waterproofing happens, and no amount of caulk or grout can fix a failed membrane underneath of any type! Any shower system of any type is flood tested before tile, if following manufacturing requirements, and that should make it completely clear the waterproofing starts and ends with the membrane, before anything is applied on top. If it is not waterproof then, anything applied on top, after, will only be a bandied on top of an already failed system. The manufacturers have answered these arguments, and put in the time and money to give us complete systems to follow that produce leak free showers that last, no need to reinvent the wheel or speculate about what way is best, I am happy to benefit from their millions spent on research, and not take chances by going rogue and making changes to their system, or relying on other contractors anecdotes, or old wives tales about what they swear is the right way, or they've done it this way for 20 years so... Kerdi, Hydroban, redguard, and even the oaety pvc liners all warranty their installations given you follow their mfg. instructions, is it really worth holding on methods of work that conflict with the mfg's instructions? Is there some ego boost or protection guys hold on to by refusing to let go of old habits ? Do they just say these things in conversation but secretly actually build their showers by the book? Why not benefit from the hard work and educational materials available? I have a hard time understanding these attitudes in the field, and the superstition like adherence to old methods despite evidence otherwise.
@@josephmclafferty4987 You clearly build very different beds than I do, but for what it's worth, there are no weeping holes or systems for foam. In the failed showers I see in demolitions and on UA-cam, the little bit of seepage that eventually happens through modern grout and a 95% thinset bed on a waterproof membrane is just not what's causing the failures. In every case I've seen there has always been much bigger problems. One common one is cracked/failed grout in plane change corners. Silicone should be redundant, but in this case had the silicone been properly applied in the corners and maintained, the waterproofing mistakes made under the tile wouldn't have shown up. I think I will set up a test tiled shower bed to see just how much water actually makes it through a modern grout line into the thinset.
@@markoshun Thank you for your detailed and thoughtful reply. Rather than use youtube though, I would suggest taking a look at the manufacturers documentation, as even in the pre formed foam systems, they still use the same bonding flange drain assemblies that are used when rolling the membrane onto a self packed bed around the same drain unit. These foam systems use the same concept as other thin bed installations in that the setting material on top of the membrane is still drained by weepers present in the second piece of the drain assembly that threads into the bonding flange and is tiled in place, set in the setting material. Although less obvious in these thin systems vs the weepers present in the thick bed, pvc liner installs, the same details are present none the less. All the major systems on the market are detailed this way, as well as requiring a flood test to be performed directly after the waterproofing is installed, but before a single setting material is put on top. This makes it clear the manufacturer expects all of the waterproof properties of the shower to come from the actual waterproofing alone, and does not depend in any way on the setting materials, grouts, corner sealants etc.. You are very correct in saying that modern setting materials and grouts often are able to mask waterproofing failures underneath because they perform so much better and are so much less permeable than older materials, I have torn out many showers over years of just like you are describing. If you want to have a good overview of how these systems work in general, and how they are intended to be installed, I suggest looking at the installation documents from Laticrete for Hydroban, a roll on membrane product, and for a traditional pvc pan, as well as oatey the manufacturer of pvc liners and the matching drains. These instructions and details are the only way these systems are warrantied to be installed, any deviation from this, can possibly produce a sound installation, but wont in any way be backed up by the manufacturer which might be fine in my own home, for experimentation, or for someone else diy ing their own, but is not ever something i would be comfortable selling to someone as a professional product I am producing. Also, I am more than happy to benefit from the millions they have spent in engineering their products, and providing those documents for me to follow. This takes the mystery and speculation, old wives tales, rules of thumb.. etc. out of the situation entirely, and gives me a path to deliver a consistent performing product I can sleep well leaving behind. UA-cam is a great way to see a million ways not to build a shower, but besides official sponsored videos from Schluter or Laticrete, etc.. if you want to know how to properly build a shower with a given system, go only to the documents that are released with that product, and I can guarantee if you follow ALL of the installation specs. and you do happen to have a failure, the manufacturers will indeed warranty the failure and stand up for their system. I think it is wrong to sell a professionally built shower, to a customer, that is not backed by the systems warranty as they are going to assume they have a product that functions properly and has a lifespan as intended. Once we start mixing and matching details we like, skipping those we dont agree with, not flood testing at the specified point, treating the corners and grout as the waterproofing plane, combining two different systems (a popular thing is to kerdi, then redguard on top as "cheap insurance" lol), essentially re-engineering the shower on the fly, we become responsible to warranty that, as the manufacturer is going to tell us to get lost! If you are truly interested in learning about how to build proper showers, learn a given system you want to use in its entirety, from the detailed and thorough instructions and guidelines that are provided with it. More interested, than learn other systems too, but remember that once you start mixing and matching parts of systems into some kind of hybrid, be ready to rebuild that shower for free if it doesn't perform as expected. If you are only coming from a diy standpoint that may not apply at all, just sharing my perspective from a professional standpoint.
@@josephmclafferty4987 I'll have to take a close look at my next Schluter drain flange, I recall no weeping holes. But, to me, if there's water getting under the membrane or the foam pan, you're already screwed, like in this video. As far as reading and following company literature, you are preaching to the choir. I started before the boon in UA-cam and am self-taught. Compulsively read the directions. Been know to call the company/distributors and ask questions. I watch these videos and note when the process strays from the directions. That's where they typically fail. I hear a lot of talk about seepage, but have yet to see it demonstrated to cause a fail in a foam pan build. Some of the mortar based references are comparing systems I've no experience with. Kind of like telling me, 'Its beside the bank' when I've never been to town before. 😀 Anyway, good to hear you talking about the 'science' of it all. But I'm still going to pass on liners and mortar beds and pre-slopes.. I did one on 1st walk-in, never again. I will say, quality UA-cam guys like Isaac and Sal are really making learning these systems accessible. The days of apprentices and mentoring are mostly done.
Great vid! You mentioned unmodified thinset will wick more water than modified. Yet Schluter calls for either the allset or an unmodified thinset. We just finished the waterproofing on our shower and used unmodified. Do I need to tear that out the redo all the bands and corners with modified? Thanks.
I just install my first Schluter kit and use unmodified thinset that’s what it calls for to install the membrane did you have to tear it out I’m worry now I might have to tear mine out now
I agree with chinaski below: TileCoach is the "best" tile setting channel on UA-cam because he consistently takes the time to patiently and thoroughly demonstrate "how to do it right", but also applies equal patience to "why a system failed". Hopefully "haters" won't view his review as "Kerdi-bashing", because he clearly states at the end "this leak was from an Installer Error". The Kerdi SYSTEM is a SYSTEM, and if an installer is not going to use the 'system as designed by Kerdi', a future failure of "the system" is likely! Great job again, TileCoach!
Right On Issac! Great detective work! I’ve learned so much from the problems you have uncovered with these membrane systems! I have three videos up now of a multi part series I’m doing on my shower. I’d love for you to check them out. I used schluter Kerdi, multimax lite, and Hydroban. Thanks for your videos! 🙌🙌✨
Videos like this are why this is arguably the best tile setting channel on UA-cam. Slow and meticulous detective work, analyzing the evidence and drawing a conclusion based on the facts. Takes years of experience in the trades to do this correctly. Kudos sir, kudos.
Thank you!
I literally started my business watching his videos, and thankfully it all seems easier to spot now lol
Exactly! I'm on a 12x24 porcelain tile install through out an entire first level of new construction. Only issue is the customer has in floor radiant water heating.
So, when the homeowner's son and friends installed that radiant floor 5/8" foil covered board over the existing 3/4" osb, it was not to my standards. Lippage and dips, etc
So now, even with tile leveling clips and a 1/2" trowel, I'm running into issues everywhere!
Shittiest of all is I just wanna play music for a living but it doesn't pay the bills so a house full of tile, shower and tub surround, 3 backsplashes will have to suffice!😂
Obviously this is a handy man special tile job. Rather than use another 10 dollar bag of mortar to float the floor, they use Styrofoam! probably a pin hole leak breached the floor causing the water to get under everything. This is why when doing a shower pan, its important to do it the right way!
And then they dont do the most important thing
They dont seal the junctions
They fill corners with grout.
Guaranteed to fail.
Great video. I have been installing kerdi for 15 years. In every shower I install. Each seam of the board, pan, and curb. Is glued and sealed together with kerdi fix urethane. Then installation of the inside corners and seam kerdi band. Flood testing for 24 hours. Before final tile instal. Every shower should be flood tested for 24 hours before tile installation. I was taught by a master tile setter with 40 years experience in the trade. I have been installing tile since 1993. Again, Excellent video, calling out subpar installation. I am still a fan of a true mud set shower, as they will last if done properly, for over 100 years.
Out of curiosity, how often does a flood test fail?
much better than thin set
@@bojanglesobrien6883The key is to do this test the day after the system has cured. That saves so much heartache. Easier to rip it out rather than the tile too.
My mud set shower is 70 years old and still great. Ugly colors of pink and white. I’m in the midst of a remodel of both bathrooms. Already removed one, let’s just say it was built to last. Was super difficult to remove! After redoing the first bath I’m not looking forward to the second bath.
Every shower pan should be inspected so you should be a licensed plumber to do so not by a tile guy who does his own test
I actually have to apologize for a comment I made on one of your videos about a year ago. I didn't watch the entire video and made a judgement without all the info and I'm sorry, you are a true pro
He’s probably been stewing about your comment for the past how many months but just didn’t say anything. Poor guy. Now that you’ve apologized he can tile with confidence again.
Finally, after this apology he has been set free
Let me get this straight my apology 2 tile coach what's something you felt so strongly about that you had to turn into a joke and type it out in the comments? Must be a slow night at Depot huh
@marcgambone4240 I too analyze and re-analyze things I've said and done in the past too. Ignore the jackasses above, it takes a good person to admit their misconceptions and make amends. I salute you. Most people don't even know how to apologize let alone admit they've made a mistake
Use Redguard! Screw kerdi!
Thanks for the video showing how important inside/outside corners of the product are so important.
I noticed it didn't overlap in the curb/wall corners. The band went edge-to-edge with no overlap leaving a seam where the two edges meet... absolutely correct in saying the lack of inside corner caused this to leak the way it did. Great video! Thanks for taking the time to do this.
This is the type of problem I wanted to avoid. I wanted a professional tile setter to do my shower using the Kerdi Schluter system, but I knew he had zero experience with same. So, I made it my business to educate myself on its installation practices and then I guided him doing the work. I also made sure I bought the materials rather than let him try to figure it out. That was 8 years ago and so far, not a sign of any leak.
I was never sold on the Kerdi system despite many people liking it. Vidoes like this would always make me install a membrane under everything!
What Brand or system? Thanks!
You do realize it was installer failure?
I agree. Just think - its multiple pieces of material held together by thinset to make it waterproof. How can it not fail eventually? I would definitely put a membrane of some sort under all of this.
Way back when Kerdi showers started they didn’t have premade corner we used to have to make them from the kerdi band. I used to put some silicone in the corner of the ones we had to make just for good measure.
I enjoyed your video sir well done.
These were my thoughts exactly! When we first started using Kerdi systems they didn’t even make a preformed corner; in fact they used to teach in their classes how to make the corners using a small slice & fold method…ultimately this leads me to a greater problem - If we’re diagnosing the issue on this shower as “lack of preformed corners”….what about the thousands of Kerdi showers installed before they existed? Makes me curious as to whether there were additional issues going on here as well…
As always, another great video!
I’m forwarding this one on to my Schluter rep for his opinion, as I’m not quite convinced the lack of premade corners was the end all…
I also remember they used to teach “kind of under the radar” that the 2” overlap is far greater than the furthest distance water would ever wick through the thinset…in other words if you missed a spot or two with slightly less than 2” overlap you’re still in the clear.
i use mesh tape and red gaurd.
Made his own band and didnt make his bends correctly
As a builder the type of jobs I hate doing the most would be fixing exterior rot from water damage. That being said It taught me how important flashing and caulking everything on the wall is. A lot of builders don’t flash pipes and small things but they all can cause water to get in and cause major damage. Lessons can always be learned from others failures and makes you a better installer!
The devil in the DETAILS!
it is true IN ALL FIELDS -- I am a computer specialist, but I grew up in a family, GENERATIONS, of master masons & ARCHITECHTS....
In all trades there should be attention for THE LITTLE DETAILS!
This is very true. From watching the Build Show is the majority of issues in building are installer related. Second aspect is when you caulk or flash you also have to think what you are sealing in. Trapping water causes a lot of damage as well.
I find just the opposite. It is more trouble fixing it inside because the outside walls are fine, but you have to rip them out to get to the problem. Outside is rotted, you just cut it out and toss it.
@@jasonroets660 Good point. One needs to think about how water gets out, if it should ever get in. And there is moisture in the form of vapor that can come from unexpected sources that can get into these seemingly sealed areas... if it can't get out, trouble.
you aint flashing a curb sir. but membrane should run over the curb and under your hardy. GLHF. Surely 2 no.2 pine and some membrane is cheaper than a prefab
What great information for those of us getting ready to install a new shower system. I'd suggest that the other inside corners not shown in this video are also leaking....not just the two in the front. If he didn't place corners in the front, I doubt he placed them in the back as well possibly resulting in leaking and rot where not as obvious. Thank you for sharing this with us. I found it extremely helpful!!
I figured immediately there were no inside corners. Also seems the installer either cut down the Kerdi band or used a sliver of wall covering. I'm so glad I slathered Ardex 8+9 all over my Kerdi kit pan a foot above and a foot in front. Also around any Kerdi on Kerdi joints like the hand shower and waterfall pipes sticking through. All thanks to Isaac's advice. My inside corners, pan, drain, and outside corners are all double waterproof. Next shower will be Flo-FX and Laticrete
Thankfully then I'm done. Isaac, I love you being my tile coach.
Very glad this video popped up. I'm about to replace my tub with a Kerdi board shower kit. Glad to see this was contractor error rather than the system failing. I'll be watching more videos to ensure I don't miss anything! Thanks guys!
I'm in the same process. I was hundred percent sure it was an installer error rather than a system failure and when I saw that corner band missing I was so relieved
Then they should tell you to install it correctly... this was not installed or used correctly.
It isn't contractor error..it is system error...you don't place your shower life on some dingbat that promotes a particular type of system while blaming contractors ...Schluter actually train unknowns with little experience in construction systems, as installers, as average tradies do not want to use such comprehensive, expensive and weak systems.
I appreciate you taking the time to investigate the cause. I used The Kerdi system in my shower. I watched many videos and was very careful to do it as directed. I used inside corners but if I’m not mistaken they say you can just lap the corners. Seeing this kind of worries me. I went back to the old school liner after trying the Kerdi system on my own shower. I have never had a rubber liner leak.
I've been installing schluter showers for several years. The company has seminars all over the country for training. I highly recommend them to any contractor who wants his installers to get some hands on training. It's better than learning on a customer's shower.
Reading spec is important in general. If you can read you can figure out proper installation without the courses. However, I've taken both first and second level. I learned quite a bit beyond what id even use.
If the kerdi/ditra fails... 99% of the time the installer 100%.
Schluter will come to the house and rip the shower apart to find if ifs product failure or install failure
I just took the workshop and it was amazing!! You really learn so much and I’m so amazed it’s free! If you are more than 100 miles away you get free hotel stay too!
@@natashatheresa I wasn't too far from home when I went and they still offered. I called my girlfriend and we got to enjoy a great hotel with indoor pool and Jacuzzi. They also served all of us a catered dinner.. really nice.
@@therustydrummer995 the food was so good lol! For dinner they let me bring my whole family bc not that many people stayed for dinner hahah
@@therustydrummer995 that’s cool you got a hotel still. They did ask me when I confirmed on the phone if I was sure I didn’t need one… but I felt guilty bc I was 15 min away hahaha. Next time though I will go for it lol!
We never use those preformed curbs. We laminate 2" boards together. It feels much stronger and allows us to do custom curb heights. That thin film is probably the glue they use to laminate the membrane to the foam. It also looks like they used the wrong thinset and a little too thick of a trowel when banding. We always use All-Set. It's worth the little extra money not to have to worry.
Yes, this is install error, 100%. You can cut down the kerdi curb to whatever size you want and band it.
I watch your channel, and Sal's channel regularly. You are both masters at what you do, and it's much appreciated by us regular people, that you show your work. I haven't done a shower pan yet, but will be renovating our master. Tips and tricks like this, make it possible for us to carry out projects like this. Thank you very much, to you and Mr. Diblasi.
Sal?
@@christopherreyes2356 Sal DiBlasi - www.youtube.com/@SalDiBlasi
yeah, they're taking work away from us tradesmen for youtube bucks
You're a good dude for taking all the extra time to investigate the issue. It's much more tempting to just rip it out and fix it.
He wants notorioty
I thought about a Schluter system for our new shower but decided on the traditional rubber membrane, as convinced by my tile guy. Glad I did. He is familiar with a traditional install and knows all the details. The Schluter system may be great if all precautions in construction is understood but I'd rather not deal with forcing a new install process on an installer that hasn't done it before.
Best to trust the pros on what their used to unless you're there as the expert instructor. No thanks.
Exactly don’t use new untested EXPENSIVE alternatives to $20 of tar and mud
The kerdi system is superior. I've installed hundreds of them, never had a call back.
@@marshalluniversity31 Yep, done right it is a great system. 👍
@@tomdemeo2708I don’t use tar but use dry pack
Done right it’s 20 times the cost and only a few years old,
Traditional lasts 40 years
Watching your channel convinced me to use Laticrete Spectra Pro Epoxy grout on my shower pan so I can sleep at night knowing my floor is waterproof pre membrane.
Professionals here in Germany use Kerdi all the time for tiled, floor leveled showers. Always exactly follow manufacturer's instruction and the system works perfectly fine.
Absolutely love this channel. I would have still watched this video had the title been “installer blotched kerdi install” rather than kerdi failure.
This video was fantastic. It is so important to do things correctly and follow the education provided by a company like Schluter. Those booklets that they provide with their products are so full of information and if reading isn’t your thing….there’s a wealth of information on UA-cam from channels like this. Oh and yeah….there’s also a phone number for Schulter you can call to basically answer any questions one might have. Great informative video
When I did my showers, I went with a $600 tray/ (tile-able) base. I think it's just money well spent for an amateur like me. This is what I was afraid about. Screwing up a corner and creating a leak, then having to remove everything to fix it. If you're a Pro like the Tile Coach, he's not going to screw up the Kerdi stuff, but the rest of us, these things can and will happen. Water's just amazing. it's going to find the smallest crack to get through and leak.
I’m going to do the same. Always best to take the safe route. $600 was well worth it.
I always regard my base and walls to avoid this problem
@@rogerskrzypek2674 ..... Redgard for those new to it.
@@undaware lol my bad spelled it wrong 🤔
@@rogerskrzypek2674 yep, me too, out of paranoia mainly.
Appreciate you guys didn't just trash the previous installer. He probably genuinely didn't know, however in today's information age there really is no reason for you to install things incorrectly. But there is a lot more laziness.
Kerdi has all the detailed installation instructions available online. But when people don't read them or try shortcuts thats what happens.
I’ve been using schluter systems for over 12 years almost exclusively. Never had a failure or a callback. I do over a dozen showers a year entirely from repeat customers and word of mouth. If the system is installed properly with the proper materials there shouldn’t be any issues. That being said if I had someone to teach me the old school ways when I was starting out I would have been happy to learn.
It looks to me like the installer was attempting to cut cost and used the wrong product just used regular thinset
You could have small failures that you don’t know about….That’s what Schluter reps say to guys who still use pan liners, but I think Kerdi has more chances of failures.
So what do you think the issue here was? The corner not being tall enough, the layers not being the right proprietary corner? I am looking to do a shower and want to know if these little nuances will be the pitfall of my build. This system looks and feels flawless from other channels' installs, but this pokes some holes in those.. I feel like a normal hot mop and other traditional methods are more fool proof in a sense when compared to the layered design of Schluter.
@@akzorz9197 I think Isaac was dead on. The main issue was the corners not being properly sealed. For someone new to the system. I would just use the prefabricated corners with the 5 in band making sure you have a minimum 2 in overlap everywhere. Also use the more expensive schluter allset to take the guess work out of what type of thinset you need. From what Isaac’s test videos has shown us it creates a much more waterproof seal anyways. Consistency of the thinset matters as well. It needs to be a little looser when doing the banding. I like it to just barely hold a trowel notch. For larger format tiles the overlapping is not a issue but for small tiles it can be. I like to take the left over thinset and feather out around the banding kind of like you do with drywall mud and tape. As for other systems they can all have issues just depends on the installer. There is not a system out there that someone can’t figure out how to screw up. Best of luck to you.
The best product improperly used can fail just like the cheapest solution. Hacks hide behind the hype of a products reputation, when in truth, the product is at most half of the equation.
What amazes me is when this Kerdi system doesn’t fail. It’s like a miracle
Have mud bed showers 30 years old in great condition.
Fix multiple Kerdi installs a year.
Expensive product for people who don't know what they are doing.
You are smart ! I am old school with 30 years experience. 😁
@@raymondsiewert2720 I think it's the only way to go. It's virtually bulletproof if done right. All you need to worry about are corners and the drain areas.
@@sbin01 You have 30 year old mud bed showers in great condition because the ones done wrong have failed a long time ago. You fix multiple Kerdi installs a year because you won't see the ones done right, which will be the ones that will still be fine in 30 years as well.
@@sbin01 If you don't know what you're doing, every shower will leak. This isn't very difficult to get right.
Isaac, you have taught me so much about this sort of situation, i watched your videos regarding schluter installation and shower pans and rip outs etc. etc.... I was a total greenhorn when it came to waterproofing and tiling a shower, i watched you guys for awhile and then went for it!! and now i have a beautiful shower and am doing tile work for others. Thank You!!!
Thanks, I've seen this post for a while, but have not viewed it. I'm currently doing a shower in my house using the schluter system and am very nervous.
I have watched many of yours and Sal's videos for directions. Hopefully from what I learned today I can finish this first time shower install and not screw it up.
I used Kerdi to build my 4x5’ walk-in shower 3 years ago and no problems whatsoever. Just follow the instructions very closely and watch lots of videos of pros installing Kerdi systems. Those pre-formed corners are extremely important!
that "band" that covers 1 3/8" (at 12:47) of the shower floor is not band. It had to be kerdi membrane cut to act as the band. At 15:40 you mention unmodified thinset as being problematic, but Schluter calls for unmodified. i appreciate your forensics. extremely educational to see that process and learn from it. can't wait to see the video on the fix.
Because Schluter doesn’t know what they are doing., calling for unmodified to adhere to plastic
Schluter specifically calls for modified on the ditra & membrane according to the manual. All set is good for both
Good points!
schluter requires modified specifically ( all set) for all membrane, kerdi band , and corners, anything pertaining to potential contact with water ! There is no reason not to use( all set) on the entire shower build and tile setting process
@@tomdemeo2708 what? modified sticks to everything including your plastic bucket! you will never get it off
I finished my bathroom project months ago but still find myself watching your videos. Great stuff man, keep up the good work. You’re saving people thousands
Same, my shower was 100% DIY and I used TileCoach, StudPack, and Schluter videos to learn the all of the steps in the system.
And Sal?
@@gregkeeyako I think I watched him once or twice, the style of his videos is different. I think he gets lots of views.
@@gregkeeyakoSal is good. His videos helped me in a few spots.
There's no substitute for experience. It takes a lot of effort to produce these types of videos. I'm a diy'er with a fair degree of capability in the building trades. I've done several of my own personal tile projects and learned from my mistakes. We can never stop learning especially when there is someone like Tile Coach to share his knowledge and experience. Thank you Tile Coach for putting out the effort to help your fellow man with these videos.
I keep it old-school. Prepitch,panliner 2stage drain and durock walls held at 1.5in above the panliner. etc. I build my seats with block directly on top of the mudpan. I'm not knocking the new tech, but there are so many videos of failures, even when installed to manufacturers' specs.
trying to re-invent the wheel, if it aint broke dont fix it
That’s why I applied Aqua Defense on top of my kerdi joints and the entire floor pan areas. I did three coats and a lot of tests to it before tiling. Perfection…
Did the same... 4 coats of aquadefense over the entire Kerdi. Not just joints. Make it a bullet-proof shower.
@@aarondixon3532 i painted entirely the pan and up to the bench. Then…rest of the joints. I agreed with you…insane system (kerdi plus aqua defense). The aqua defense adheres so well to the kerdi that it’s impressive.
Then why spend all the extra money for this stuff? Can't you just do it with the "old fashioned " materials and then coat them?
@@aarondixon3532 Then why use kerdi instead of the "old fashioned" stuff?
@@roberthooper8883 you could…but my wood house tend to expand/contract quite a bit between seasons. So I wouldn’t depend only on a liquid membrane like aqua defense. I like the peace of mind of having two membranes (solid plus liquid). Not that much expensive…
Done several Kerdi showers...we never rely on just the banding, instead we bring the wall material down over the pan a good 6"...Also even using the preformed pans, I put a whole other sheet over the pan with a second layer overlapping the side material, mainly because it gets walked on doing the walls and I always feared puncturing it. A bit of overkill, but lots of overlap has kept me from having to go back
It seems like the original installer did some research to install kerdi, especially considering it’s outside of his normal system he’s used to. I’m really surprised he missed the corners. I mean, common sense tells you that’s a critical component. Bummer all that tile work is all a waste now.
Good work finding the culprit!
My exact thoughts. It was looking really good at first and my heart was sinking thinking of all the tile showers out there I have built with this system. I have not got a call back yet, but this made me nervous. I was relieved, but shocked to see he left out one of the most critical components of the system.
Been Doing Tile since 1979. I learned from The Union in California. I have Floated with cement for most of the years. I am not comfortable with the styrofoam insulation on the dam. Even with the tape overlapping. I like the rubber membrane, and floating for floor. I do like schluter for walls and shelves though.
Part of the problem too is that people don't understand grout will accept water and allow it to get through it so one way to help prevent that is by using epoxy grout
We did two bathrooms six years ago using Kerdi membrane for showers and bathroom floors, Kerdi shower pans and curbs. My wife did all the Kerdi work and tile. Nothing complicated but you do need to follow manufacturer specifications.
Yes, the key is following the manufacturer's specifications! Kerdi has specific adhesive for their systems but many installers use the same thin set or adhesives as they might use with other materials and that may not be the best thing to use with this type of system.
Love your videos. I was an installer for years. I prefer the liner...Hardie board mud floor system. Makes for a strong, water proof wall...and a good strong floor..not styrofoam. I almost went for this system in my house but went old school. Lots of failures with that system. You are a great teacher and problem solver. Cheers!
Not if you do it correctly. Hardi board is normally only used over wood sub floors by journeyman tilesetters not walls. I use the kerdi system but I don’t like their foam pans. I use their curb and patch it full of thin set so it makes it pretty solid wait for it to dry and then dry pack the floor the conventional way and then kerdi over it. Been doing it this way for years and works great.
No failures with Kerdi if done to their specs
Kerdi is a joke that amateurs use.
@@frankfurter2891 no, that's something real amatures say.. 😉
@@gregkeeyako yeah OK stretch. Keep wasting you time and money on a inferior product.
Thanks tons friend. I am getting ready to do an Oatey liner and the customer was trying to talk me into doing a Kerdi system. I love the floor system they have but just don't like not having a complete non cut corner like I have done many times with Oatey. Your efforts are appreciated and I hope you get business due to your efforts to help us all. Thanks again my friend.
This is why I always flood test my pans for 24 hours before I install tile. All it takes is something like forgetting a corner, with a flood test you will see that thing pour out water
Good vid👍
When I was new to kerdi - I read up and followed the instructions - proper inside/outside corners. But more importantly, how does water flow, dont have areas where water can stand, common sense!
I will be using Kerdi on my master bath reno.
Cheers
The fact that the kerdyi membrane is braking like wet paper is scarry to me. That should be capable to stay submerged without problem, is shower pan. Good job TileCoach!
And you are right it took me two months to learn the Schluter Kerdi shower installation, you have to just follow the instructions and it will be fine, if you make any changes to what Schluter gave you then you are in trouble. But thanks for the video really appreciate seeing errors that come up if you go your own way.
Good forensics Bro! Definitely no inside corner is the problem, also the curb is strange, it might be the Kerdi knock off curb- I’ve seen it for sale and they make it orange with grid pattern to look like Kerdi
Yeh I thought the same. The curb looks sketchy.
After watching many of these failures over the years I decided to go a different route. I chose a composite prefabricated shower pan and had a fabricator make and install solid surface walls. The amount of money and work creating a beautiful new bath or shower using tile and all of these modern waterproofing methods is just too risky. One great advantage I now have is no need for highly offensive tile and grout cleaners. The second advantage is a lower cost and longer lifespan.
Tile installation last hundreds of years!!
It’s the new Schluter garbage that’s the problem
When Schluter and Kerdi were first introduced to me the manufacturer specified using unmodified thinset to attach their fabrics. I did a steam shower according to their instructions and I have no idea if it's still functioning correctly since it's been almost 25 years and I've been retired for half that time. The way that kerdi band releases from the curb, floor and wall tells me it's not a very good bond and it would be subject to failure on all kerdi systems. I always did a traditional mud floor and curb and Dens Shield wall board. Never had a problem with that system. Even Redgard is suspect to failure. All this high tech materials and such are no match for the old way of mud shower pans.
nice how you calmly inspected and analyzed things to see what the cause was.
Glad you mentioned that about using a bucket to fill up the pan for the flood test. Great job as always guys. We love watching your videos down here in south west Georgia USA
Thanks for watching!
@fartpooboxohyeah8611 in CA its pretty much required if you pull permits and flood test is very common practice, at least 24 hours.
Exactly why I always recommend going old school my pops taught me right and I'll stay that way for a long time. I'm happy to see those new products fail.
I'm interested, what products did he use?
That’s why I use the pan liner and pour the pan with a three piece barrel drain, and red guard. All for under $200
It's a little heart breaking to see you tearing that out. Aside from the obvious issues with the installation the old school installer did a good looking job. Thanks for the good information.
This is a good postmortem. I use mortar (pre-slope, rubber pan, etc.), and durock and never have a problem. It’s half the price of Kerdi, and will last until someone decides to rip it out for the look of new tile.
Rubber pans never fail. Unless you screw holes into it. Oatey still works.
Excellent forensic opening AND documentation of it. I'm learning how much having a cameraman helps.
I use the WEDI system. So far it’s worked every time. No callbacks yet. 🤞 it is a bit expensive though. But so are most of these waterproofing systems. I feel like using thin set as a adhesive is the problem here. Thinset modified or unmodified is porous, definitely doesn’t seem like a waterproof adhesive to me. I even use some of the WEDI adhesive on any sub liner as well as the recommended thinset. It seals the seams and then covers the seams 100%. Good luck everyone
exactly. where he pulled off the pc that covered where top of curb meets the wall it appeared to be well applied yet was still wet underneath. schluter has WAY too many layers for me. obviously doesn't help to seal it up.
Its a good reminder to me to not get complacent thanks for taking the time to do this video
Great video but one thing confusing me here. Schluter recommend the use of unmodified thinset only when bonding overlapped seams and connections to Kerdi membranes. Obviously the biggest failure of this install was lack of inside corners.
Has this been changed? When I installed my shower in 2016, they recommended modified thin set. Shower is thankfully still holding up 7 years later. Man, time flies.
A contractor with true integrity! Thank you a true professional 📐👍🇺🇸
Hey brother, first, THANK YOU for taking the time to make these videos and help the diyers like myself. The way you explain things really helps.
Quick question…..my membrane say to use UN-modified thinset and not modified. I’m getting conflicting info from everywhere. What are your thoughts/suggestions on which to use?
I know i am gonna take a lot of heat for this but....when i watch these kerdi shower install videos, I just cant understand why anyone would go through all of this, instead of ordering a custom fiberglass tileable shower pan. They are affordable and ready to go. I have used a few of them in my own projects and they installed in a few hours, including the waterproof wall panels. One piece pan, instead of all these steps, adhesives, felts, etc. Several years and no trouble from any of mine.
What if you need a custom size that is not available out there
Not everyone is as practical as you. Some people like custom design
@@yfchina143 mine were all custom shapes, designed by me. You sketch it with measurements, a week later it is delivered to your door as you drew it.
I have used fiberglass pans and hate them. No strength to them. When a person steps onto the pan there is movement. I swear by the Shleuter system. Have built many custom showers and have not had a problem with any of them.
@@brettbarager9101 yes i suppose the quality does vary from one company to the next...i can only speak for the ones i used, all from the same company here in canada, they are solid.
I totally remodeled my master shower wall/floor ten years ago without any problem and I love it.
The Kerdi system looks like an awesome system if installed correctly. But I never had issues with cement board then thinset the screw holes and seams then redguard a minimum of 6 foot high on walls. Floor i lightly thinset the mud pre slope then red guard whole entire floor and same with the curb. Redguard is key and allows for alot of movement with expanding and retracting during our different seasons here in the upper Midwest
Agreed, however, applying the Redguard correctly is important.
@@jwil4905 not much rules to it . But don't apply it overly thick. Thinner even coats is the key
I’ve lost track of the number of showers I have torn out and replaced because the bladder and redgaurd systems failed.
@@marke2401 redguard isn't really a " system ". I like to look at it like great insurance. And you tore out bad shower builds. Most likely not because of redguard
Yep
Thanks dude it’s been about 20 years since I’ve plumbed up a shower n pan this is good to know I’m about to redo my bathrooms so it’ll get good use out of the info thanks much remember don’t chew your finger nails
This is EXACTLY why I coat all of my finished Schulter shower systems with 3 thin layers of REDGUARD as a second layer of waterproofing. Water WILL find a way to wick into non-modified thinset through capillary action and ultimately soften and weaken the bonds between the Kerdi fabric leading to the very failure that's observed here.
Then why use it if you need another product to fix it
@@charlieconustedes9969 Redguard is a great product by itself, so you're correct in that is could be used by itself. Though in my experience, Schluter is what customers expect when paying for more expensive installations,. So to shore up the inherent weaknesses of the Schluter bonding system at the seams (e.g. Schluter's insistence on the use of non-modified thinset), I use Redguard to solve that problem. Another alternative is to skip the Redguard altogether and use Schulter's MODIFIED thinset (called "All Set"), but it's hard to get locally where I'm at and expensive compared to using non-modified with few coats of Redguard. Hope that's helpful...
Yep, water will find the first layer, maybe a partial second but not a third.
Thanks for the info. I recently had my shower retiled & wanted Schluter but my tiler had NEVER heard of it!
Be happy he didn’t use it. Old school lately run let
Liners are the superior method. Then hardy board with rescuers for the walls. The shower tile
Will be out of style
Before it fails.
A flood test (part of the supplier’s recommendations) would have likely exposed this before the tile was installed.
Following the supplier’s installation instructions would have yielded a good shower system.
My husband and I DIY remodeled our two down-to-the-studs 1981 original builder grade bathrooms in 2015 (bath/shower combo surround and 2016 (curb-less walk-in shower) using Schluter systems and products. So far, everything Schluter in our 2nd story bathrooms is performing as expected.
We didn’t just demo the old bathrooms and wing it by watching random UA-cam videos and asking Home Depot and Lowe’s employees (too often that’s a recipe for disaster even for relatively small DYI projects). Our local tile shop where we purchased/ordered the majority of the Schluter products was quite helpful, but it was the access to the Schluter website and education videos, technician support, and the Schluter Innovation #1 workshop that ensured our bathroom remodels were successful.
We spent a *lot* of time learning and evaluating different methods and product lines before we began the projects. We ultimately decided we wanted a 21st century bath & shower areas, not the typical San Diego “hot mop” shower base. Tradespeople should also invest the time to learn about new products and systems before they start experimenting or mix-n-match different system products.
Anyone can learn how to use Schluter systems and product effectively. Schluter not only provides detailed installation videos about their systems, products, and how to use them correctly, but in our experience they have great technician support by phone and email. As homeowner DIYers, we had *lots* of questions before, during, and even after our bathroom remodels.
Schluter also offers a variety of free* comprehensive hands-on classes/workshops in major cities all around North America. Anyone working in the tile trade (including sales staff at tile/flooring stores) should participate in the initial Innovation Workshop even if just to become familiar with the Schluter systems and products. We attended the two day Innovation #1 workshop (I think the workshop registration may require an occupational association with the tile/building trades now).
*overnight accommodation and meals are compliments of Schluter; travel expenses to/from the event are not covered.
Isaac you rock dude! Thank you so much for taking the time to show us this. I'm researching installing a shower system and this video was totally helpful!
I believe the schluder shower pan is a good system but it requires specific details like the proper membrane and thinset, corners, etc, where it makes me feel there are more room for mistakes.
I’ve switched back to using kerdi membrane as a rubber liner with schluder adhesive around the drain and the four screws in the drain system and have not had any problems. It makes me sleep better at night knowing there is a solid sheet cook g up the wall behind the mortar. I also use kerdi over mortar as waterproofing.
This man knows his business! He’s the professional chief in my book.
Great video. Been doing tile for 20 years. Don't believe the hype on kerdi and wedi systems.Panliner, Fiberock or durock walls, mud and tape joints, mudpan, redguard or hydroban niches, benches and curbs.Steam showers need to be completely waterproofed with a pitched ceiling. Never had a fail. Ive ripped out showers to update them that I did 10 years prior. Perfect behind everything.
Hey Bonner, do you picture frame or scluter your niches?
@@kyledennis6772 usually shluter trim. Depends on the customer or designer. Sometimes marble sills, sometimes mitered corners $$$. Bullnose is almost non existent now.
Durock and hardy backer is for homeowners. Float your walls, & pan it will be level square flat and 100 times stronger.
@@juliemunoz2762 Ya no thanks. If you metal lathe and float your walls you got my respect. No one does it in South Fl.
@@danielbonner8309 It’s how I was taught. I suppose in some parts of the country using mastic to tile over greenboard still acceptable. Just depends on building codes and tradition..
Awesome video. About to put in my first kerdi pan and shower set up, this video was great about some things to watch for. Thanks for taking the time.
I used the roll on Hydro ban 5 coats, on hardie board pricey but seemed the best option
I’m glad to see this thank you. We put the corners in but recently dialed the water test. We will go back and overlap but was surprised to have failed water test after we did it according to spec.
that’s why i don’t mess with all these new age methods, i pre slope then pan liner, use pebbles at the drain and scratch and float the walls… old school, never had a call back
Thanks for giving back to humanity the way you do, greatly appreciated
I've been doing research to install my own shower and your channel is priceless! As a DIY'er I'm not going to use the Kerdi system. I'm leaning towards Hydroban for my shower for 2 reasons , #1 I'm just not ok with the amount of wicking that takes place with Kerdi, basically if you pack on enough layers and do it the way they say it won't LEAK enough to LEAK...sorry I'm not good with that .
#2 This is my first shower install and I don't feel the product has any room for error , I actually feel like it barely works if you do it perfect!!
I've been extremely competent in all my diy projects.. I've been doing months of research on waterproofing a shower before I begin, I have no doubt I can follow the instructions to a "T" but it's not worth the risk IMO.
Exactly, I feel the same! I think that's why Tile Coach covers his kerdi with a layer of Ardex 8+9 or similar. That way no water even reaches the Kerdi. That's all I trust it for as well, is a backup.
When done correctly, the schluter system is fail-proof. Problem is no one takes the time to waterproof correctly. Not the systems fault.
@@palmerstile9379 Maybe. But I know several GCs in Europe, one in Germany (home of Schluter) and they never see anyone waterproofing indoor pools and steamrooms with that stuff (most every residential and commercial pool is indoor in those climates). They all use their version of 8+9 or Hydroban and do several coats. None of that Kerdi or redguard plyable weak stuff. Also all pools are tiled there, no plaster.
@@palmerstile9379 Oh!!! In that case .... STILL not using it!!
@@Urban_Tarzan no one's forcing you to. Just kinda seems silly to blame a manufacturer for incompetent tilemen.
Good information, teaches us why its important to do things not only the right way, but what happens if you dont. thanks
Very informative Issac, i use kerdi membrane all the time and form my own pans/curbs. The thin set they used seems unmodified with the amount of seepage (besides the fact they didn't use inside corners).
Love the investigation, its nice to see what happens when things goes south.
Gained a sub thanks!
Don't kerdi require unmodified under their membrane?
@patrickgregory7920 Modified has added polymers that allow for better adhesion and easier workability. We've been using "schulter all-set"
Well,, you have certainly sold me. Thank you. I am going to stick with pan screen and mud. I/4 the price and just as fast.
I started coating all my kerdi showers with red guard membrane or an equivalent especially on the corners and joints where bands are required. I haven’t had a call back and I have been finding these videos and am taking extra steps to keep it that way. Always use the prefab corners and bands! You can’t skip steps or parts with a shower or bath, that’s just shooting yourself in the foot.
How long have you been doing this? I am DIYer remodeling our Masterbath into a large walk-in shower. I am following all Kerdi instructions but this sounds like a very good idea. How long have you been coating the Kerdi with red guard? Did you talk to Kerdi before doing this about the warranty?
So it’s okay to use red guard on schluter membrane?
@@ilou224 You shouldn't have to but if you do I would not put it over a heated shower floor unless the manufacturer says it's okay to.
Why don’t you just learn to do it right. Use a proper membrane/hot mop, float your showers and pans, paper wire behind them. Your walls will be level, flat, square, stronger and You don’t waste $100s on a bunch of plastic.
@@ilou224 Absolutely not! It voids the warranty.
People have complained about the smell of a hot mop process, but it does provide a very good protective layer. It can even be used on decks and ponds. The smell goes away after a day or two. Sooner if you force ventilate it.
This just a good reminder why i roll on waterproof my seams as well.
If you use a waterproofer like redguard, why would you even need to use kerdi?
@@FJB2020 i only go over any seams on the kerdi pan. Just makes me feel better. Ive been seeing more and more seam failures and it really doesn’t look like its the installers fault. However it was definitely the installers fault in this video.
You are the man for taking the time to do these videos!
This is why I stick to hot mopping and floating. Its simply the best method and I never get leaks in my showers. Yes there are always gonna be other methods, but why settle for the quick and cheap method. Just stick to the old school methods and not have issues. I tell all my clients that I won't stray from the traditional hot mop and float method and I put a garuntee on all my showers that they won't leak from the pan or from underneath the curb.
I like your FloFX hat!! I bought a FloFX drain just from watching your videos. Love these videos, I am so torn between doing a sheet membrane or liquid applied on my shower. Videos like this make me go to Liquid applied more, then you put one out for the liquid applied and then I am back to sheet membrane. Its all in the install!!
Change isnt always good. Ive done many showers with a rubber liner and none of them leaked. Kerdi isnt any faster and uses more mud with more steps I can install a shower base in half a day and skim it for pitch. Install backer board on walls and be tile ready by day 3. Ill stick with what works for me and for decades before kerdy came along. Educating homeowners also helps tile and grout last decades. Using premium grout that doesnt need sealer also helps.
Thanks for taking your time to figure out what what is cost leak
Schluter's recommendation is to use unmodified thinset mortar when installing Kerdi over most shower substrates.
Is there a reason why you mentioned unmodified possibly being a problem?
Schluter has their own modified thinset. Look up Schluter all-set.
That isn’t what he asked. Schutler calls for unmodified thinset
Have to catch schluter’s wording in vids, calls for any schluter thinset mortar or an unmodified mortar
@@MaRi-wk8gponly for the kerdiband seems. Either unmodified or the schluter all set modified
I always enjoy your content. Yet another great analysis of the causes of failure. Thank you for sharing!
This is why is always recommended to use a really good thin set!
Nice diagnosis. Those kerdi preformed corners are very important.
Two corrections:
1) Unmodified thinset is not a problem under the Kerdi-Band as you said, in fact it is preferred. Modified thinset dries slower when trapped between 2 waterproof layers, and heavily-modified thinsets under Kerdi-Band can cause it to fail. Schluter had to replace a bunch on warranty before requiring unmodified.
2) Inside corners are not required for a successful installs. His real error was not wrapping the Kerdi-Band thru the corner. You got the leak point right, but wrapped corners work great. You only slit the bottom half of the Kerdi-Band, and it then makes 2 overlapping lower flaps when you nestle it in the corner. Always stop Kerdi-Band in the middle of a wall, never in a corner. Wrapping instead of using preformed corners seals just as well and avoids having as much build up in the corner to make for a better, flatter tile install.
The unmodified thinset just absorbs water and wicks water up walls and curbs and under membrane. This has been proven to the point that schluter made their modified thinset.
I personally called Schluter to ask them about the thinset mortar and they said they stand behind the Schluter All-Set modified mortar. They do not warranty their system using another brands unmodified thinset.
@@jimlally2888 Yes of course they want to sell you their own mortar now that they make one. 'Not standing behind' other mortars does not at all mean the others caused a failure. Before they made their own mortar, they did warrant hundreds of thousands of floors for decades with other brands of unmodified mortar, which did just fine (and still are).
I’ve used the schluter-kerdi system and it is a great system! That being said you need to instal it properly and leak test before tiling!
I was worried about my old school showers built a couple years ago using no waterproofing except rubber pan liner and breaking all the rules I've seen on youtube....starting to feel better about them now;)
Done right ya cant beat a rubber pan.
Goes to show that even if you're using superior products, you have to hire great installers. I did my bathroom about 8 years ago with Schluter products and not a problem. The guys were certified professionals!
Thinsetting tile on top of plastic is not a superior product. You know the proper way to do it is use a real waterproof membrane and then float your walls and the shower pan so that everything is level square flat and of course waterproof.
Excellent video. Thanks for doing this.
Looks like he also grouted the corners and no silicone? Properly sealed and maintained this problem wouldn't have shown up in the first place.
I know people are concerned about the seepage factor. But I'm betting we will always find a bigger problem like this before seepage shows up. With proper silicone and inside corners, there would be no water under there to seep.
it does not just seep in through the corners, grout and many types of tile themselves are indeed permeable at some rate of transmission, cementenous grout being quite permeable to moisture. the mud bed under the floor will indeed take on moisture and need to expel it out the weeps over time, that is why every shower waterproofing system includes weepers /sub-drain system under the main drain flange that allows the mortar bed to be able to drain as well, weather it is a thin bed of just the tile setting material built up, or a full thickness traditional mud bed they all include this detail, so it is clear that the floor systems are not ever expected to be waterproof, the corner caulk or grout is never where water is contained, it always happens at the membrane plane, be it a pvc liner underneath a mortar bed, or a roll on or set on membrane directly under the tile. The plane of water containment is clearly at the membrane in the systems, and never at the tile surface or grout/caulk joints. Grout and caulk are always considered strictly cosmetic/load bearing even at times, but never the boundary of water containment. This fallacy has caused many to point at the corner joints, on the tile install as some critical point of failure, when ALL the different shower systems on the market clearly instruct that the plane of the membrane, and its installation is where the waterproofing happens, and no amount of caulk or grout can fix a failed membrane underneath of any type! Any shower system of any type is flood tested before tile, if following manufacturing requirements, and that should make it completely clear the waterproofing starts and ends with the membrane, before anything is applied on top. If it is not waterproof then, anything applied on top, after, will only be a bandied on top of an already failed system. The manufacturers have answered these arguments, and put in the time and money to give us complete systems to follow that produce leak free showers that last, no need to reinvent the wheel or speculate about what way is best, I am happy to benefit from their millions spent on research, and not take chances by going rogue and making changes to their system, or relying on other contractors anecdotes, or old wives tales about what they swear is the right way, or they've done it this way for 20 years so... Kerdi, Hydroban, redguard, and even the oaety pvc liners all warranty their installations given you follow their mfg. instructions, is it really worth holding on methods of work that conflict with the mfg's instructions? Is there some ego boost or protection guys hold on to by refusing to let go of old habits ? Do they just say these things in conversation but secretly actually build their showers by the book? Why not benefit from the hard work and educational materials available? I have a hard time understanding these attitudes in the field, and the superstition like adherence to old methods despite evidence otherwise.
@@josephmclafferty4987
You clearly build very different beds than I do, but for what it's worth, there are no weeping holes or systems for foam.
In the failed showers I see in demolitions and on UA-cam, the little bit of seepage that eventually happens through modern grout and a 95% thinset bed on a waterproof membrane is just not what's causing the failures. In every case I've seen there has always been much bigger problems. One common one is cracked/failed grout in plane change corners.
Silicone should be redundant, but in this case had the silicone been properly applied in the corners and maintained, the waterproofing mistakes made under the tile wouldn't have shown up.
I think I will set up a test tiled shower bed to see just how much water actually makes it through a modern grout line into the thinset.
@@markoshun Thank you for your detailed and thoughtful reply. Rather than use youtube though, I would suggest taking a look at the manufacturers documentation, as even in the pre formed foam systems, they still use the same bonding flange drain assemblies that are used when rolling the membrane onto a self packed bed around the same drain unit. These foam systems use the same concept as other thin bed installations in that the setting material on top of the membrane is still drained by weepers present in the second piece of the drain assembly that threads into the bonding flange and is tiled in place, set in the setting material. Although less obvious in these thin systems vs the weepers present in the thick bed, pvc liner installs, the same details are present none the less. All the major systems on the market are detailed this way, as well as requiring a flood test to be performed directly after the waterproofing is installed, but before a single setting material is put on top. This makes it clear the manufacturer expects all of the waterproof properties of the shower to come from the actual waterproofing alone, and does not depend in any way on the setting materials, grouts, corner sealants etc.. You are very correct in saying that modern setting materials and grouts often are able to mask waterproofing failures underneath because they perform so much better and are so much less permeable than older materials, I have torn out many showers over years of just like you are describing. If you want to have a good overview of how these systems work in general, and how they are intended to be installed, I suggest looking at the installation documents from Laticrete for Hydroban, a roll on membrane product, and for a traditional pvc pan, as well as oatey the manufacturer of pvc liners and the matching drains. These instructions and details are the only way these systems are warrantied to be installed, any deviation from this, can possibly produce a sound installation, but wont in any way be backed up by the manufacturer which might be fine in my own home, for experimentation, or for someone else diy ing their own, but is not ever something i would be comfortable selling to someone as a professional product I am producing. Also, I am more than happy to benefit from the millions they have spent in engineering their products, and providing those documents for me to follow. This takes the mystery and speculation, old wives tales, rules of thumb.. etc. out of the situation entirely, and gives me a path to deliver a consistent performing product I can sleep well leaving behind. UA-cam is a great way to see a million ways not to build a shower, but besides official sponsored videos from Schluter or Laticrete, etc.. if you want to know how to properly build a shower with a given system, go only to the documents that are released with that product, and I can guarantee if you follow ALL of the installation specs. and you do happen to have a failure, the manufacturers will indeed warranty the failure and stand up for their system. I think it is wrong to sell a professionally built shower, to a customer, that is not backed by the systems warranty as they are going to assume they have a product that functions properly and has a lifespan as intended. Once we start mixing and matching details we like, skipping those we dont agree with, not flood testing at the specified point, treating the corners and grout as the waterproofing plane, combining two different systems (a popular thing is to kerdi, then redguard on top as "cheap insurance" lol), essentially re-engineering the shower on the fly, we become responsible to warranty that, as the manufacturer is going to tell us to get lost! If you are truly interested in learning about how to build proper showers, learn a given system you want to use in its entirety, from the detailed and thorough instructions and guidelines that are provided with it. More interested, than learn other systems too, but remember that once you start mixing and matching parts of systems into some kind of hybrid, be ready to rebuild that shower for free if it doesn't perform as expected. If you are only coming from a diy standpoint that may not apply at all, just sharing my perspective from a professional standpoint.
@@josephmclafferty4987 I'll have to take a close look at my next Schluter drain flange, I recall no weeping holes. But, to me, if there's water getting under the membrane or the foam pan, you're already screwed, like in this video.
As far as reading and following company literature, you are preaching to the choir. I started before the boon in UA-cam and am self-taught. Compulsively read the directions. Been know to call the company/distributors and ask questions.
I watch these videos and note when the process strays from the directions. That's where they typically fail. I hear a lot of talk about seepage, but have yet to see it demonstrated to cause a fail in a foam pan build.
Some of the mortar based references are comparing systems I've no experience with. Kind of like telling me, 'Its beside the bank' when I've never been to town before. 😀
Anyway, good to hear you talking about the 'science' of it all. But I'm still going to pass on liners and mortar beds and pre-slopes.. I did one on 1st walk-in, never again.
I will say, quality UA-cam guys like Isaac and Sal are really making learning these systems accessible. The days of apprentices and mentoring are mostly done.
thanks for the in depth info tile coach. End of the day the system is a system and needs to be installed per mfg specs.
Great vid! You mentioned unmodified thinset will wick more water than modified. Yet Schluter calls for either the allset or an unmodified thinset. We just finished the waterproofing on our shower and used unmodified. Do I need to tear that out the redo all the bands and corners with modified? Thanks.
I just install my first Schluter kit and use unmodified thinset that’s what it calls for to install the membrane did you have to tear it out I’m worry now I might have to tear mine out now
Allset is modified and recommended. Modified for ditra. All set or unmodified for membrane and seems.
I agree with chinaski below: TileCoach is the "best" tile setting channel on UA-cam because he consistently takes the time to patiently and thoroughly demonstrate "how to do it right", but also applies equal patience to "why a system failed". Hopefully "haters" won't view his review as "Kerdi-bashing", because he clearly states at the end "this leak was from an Installer Error". The Kerdi SYSTEM is a SYSTEM, and if an installer is not going to use the 'system as designed by Kerdi', a future failure of "the system" is likely! Great job again, TileCoach!
Right On Issac! Great detective work! I’ve learned so much from the problems you have uncovered with these membrane systems! I have three videos up now of a multi part series I’m doing on my shower. I’d love for you to check them out. I used schluter Kerdi, multimax lite, and Hydroban. Thanks for your videos! 🙌🙌✨
Yep you taught me that the schluter banding does absorb moisture so I coated the whole pan curbing and all banding and flo FX drain with hydro ban