Why Does No One Play Punch-Out!! High Score?
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- Опубліковано 30 кві 2024
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I think it hurts people's brains to see splits in points instead of minutes and seconds
Big Speedrunning has infected their minds. Plenty of sports are not based on doing things the fastest and instead scoring the most. Not that speedrunning is bad, just that there is more to singleplayer competitive gaming. And while i agree highscore is not suitable for most games just because they have a score, I think Punch-outs score system and mechanics are actually really good.
i think a good example of a game with a shitty scoring system is NES mega man. the stage clear points are randomized and you can also just farm the infinitely respawning enemies for points
More likely that the title contains the name of a convicted rapist.
I noticed this video didnt have the games full title.... i wonder why.
If soul calibur was called "Jimmy Savilles Soul Calibur" nobody would play that either....
There's also min score, but with how easy it is to get points in some games, it can get on TAS levels of precision, plus there's the matter of checkpoint legality, since, on one hand, they disappear enemies around, but on the other, your score doesn't roll back.
My favourite is the arcade of "Toki: Going Ape" (tried it with savestates). You die in one hit, and deal damage by jumping over things or shooting them. Dealing damage awards points, so the absolute minimum score would be a extremely precise TAS, while in real time it'd be better left for individual levels.
Seeing Summoning Salt get mentioned in someone else's video on high scores feels weirdly backwards
lol. backwards in which way? that someone gets to mention him instead of him mentioning other people or backwards cause its score and not speedrunning. Or I guess both?
@@Papamanual It is weird to see the speedrun history guy get mentioned instead of being the one mentioning
I don't play this game myself so take this with a grain of salt, but the most standout thing to me is just how it involves dragging out fights as long as possible. It reminds me of 2D fighting games, in particular how zoners (a character archetype based on keeping distance and preventing the opponent from approaching) are generally less popular than rushdown characters that focus more on aggression and fast-paced gameplay. It's not that zoners are _inherently_ less interesting to play, or allow less room for strategy, it's just that the style of slowing things down and playing responsively doesn't appeal to as many people compared to rushing people down and enforcing strong offense on their own terms. I think something similar might apply here.
I suppose its possible, but you are also not dragging the fight out for the sake of it, there are still "things to do" to score points.
@@Papamanual But so applies to Zoners. They don't drag the fight because they want to, but because they would get destroyed if they try to rush things down. People in general DESPISES defense, most of us lack the patience to just sit down and analyze it, because is just boring to do nothing which is what high score kinda encourages at times. Speedrun by nature is trying to be as agressive as possible while getting away with it, which is a more appealing style.
@@N12015Ok I see now.
I also agree people despise defence and I see this in many sports. The offensive awards are generally more prestigious and more numerous than the defensive awards. Even statistic wise, the offensive play leads to a "+1" to that team, but a defensive play is to prevent the "+1" but is overall a "net 0" score change.
Only "aggressive" defensive plays are really rewarded. In basketball there is usually some risk in going for a block or a steal, if you make it the crowd "oohs and aahs" - On the other hand, if you bite on a fake shot or pass to go for a block or a steal, you could be left a sitting duck and are potentially humiliated by the offensive counter play. There is little perceived reward for just locking down an offensive player and preventing them from even making an offensive play, all you are really doing is drawing the game state to a stalemate.
I suppose from a viewer perspective of punchout, the speedrun is more enjoyable to watch than the highscore run - Ive had people comment on my highscore WR saying that it kinda looks like a casual playthrough lol, and I also agree that it looks like that, but to actually play it, its quite different.
sleep can wait, punch-out is more important
p.s. petition for pap to make the tyson vid
Ill make it eventually.
The thing that really surprises me is the lack of IL high score. Between the luck demands and the degree of mastery each fight requires to truly squeeze every point out of it, it seems like it would be both the perfect bridge into the larger SS run and a fascinating competition on its own.
I have every world record in IL highscore. I just didnt mention it to prevent myself from seeming too boastful or arrogant.
I think they can be used as a bridge, many of the IL WR's were achieved with the strategies I would recommend for High Score Single Segment (which are in the tutorials), but some I also went out of my way to create an IL strategy for (like Super Macho Man - I will not let this record be taken from me easily :D ).
The ones I didnt go out of my way for, its most likely cause i literally couldnt think of anything better and the single segment strategy was already pretty good.
@@Papamanual Future Summoning Salt video. The Quest to Beat Papamanual.
great video Pap, thanks for including me. Great love letter to the category. If this doesn't get them in the door, I don't know what to tell you...
Scoring on console has always been plauged by infinite scoring patterns and such, so most people have disregarded it rightly so. It's mostly arcade games without infinites that have some remaining scoring scene. And at the end of the day, there's no real competition for scoring almost any console game. Like you yourself said, people are going to play arcade games and shmups for that.
True, but aslong as you dont allow clockstop glitch which the speedrun also disallows (can max out points on Soda this way) its not a never ending game.
You can cite lack of competition. and thats partly why this video was made, to bring attention to the category which I see as being just as challenging (in different ways) as the speedrun.
Actually surprised it took this long for a high score video, I was waiting for it for a long time!
The high score strategies for this game absolutely fascinated me when I've got a taste of them from your previous videos on it. Didn't realise it was so niche among the community!
This video really resonated with me. I've never played Punch Out in my life, and probably never will, but the way you pitched the High Score run mirrors the way I try to convince my friends to play TCGs with me in very esoteric and time consuming ways. I can really relate to that feeling that others do not have that same obsessive drive to delve deeper into the rules and mechanics, right up to their absolute limits, whether that be out of disinterest or fear of ruining the appeal of the game. Thanks for making this video, even if I have a completely different set of interests and life experiences, I feel we are kindred spirits.
Alright great video but with the category ranking you missed a very important point about the tyson challenge, the tyson challenge is a great way to tell what your overall tyson consistency is, especially for new runners like me, because during ILs if you mess up there is no punishment you just reset but during the tyson challenge once it starts have to keep going no matter what and a few missed punches can be quite punishing
Yeah I did think about that. its a category based on consistency. Overall, I still don't like it, you play the fight the same way as you would fight Tyson in IL's and only more safe on the last few fights if you really want to preserve a PB in "Tyson Challenge" and not accidentally throw it away by missing frame perfects.
@@Papamanual My personal opinion on the category it's a fun little category that you do when you feel like it and it all depends on the runner, I think it's fun and you don't which is a perfectly acceptable opinion. Like I said great video but I wanted to share my opinion on something
@@notatimelord21 Yeah, I dont dispute it cant be fun. Just that it brings nothing new.
Great video to have in my feed. I was hoping to hear The Electric Underground (Mark) get a mention, but you channeled some of his energy when you discussed strategy and implications.
Mark from TEU is a channel almost exclusively focused on shumps which is a genre which is very gameplay dense, score focused (once you get good enough) but simultaneously incompatible with speedruns.
A lot of that genre is growing on console first now so we've had plenty of hits in the last few years like Gunvein and Hyper Demon.
Speedrunning can definitely be tacked onto any type of game, but it is a bit of a crapshoot if they won't get patched in an unappealing way, have an uninteresting speedrun for those engaging with it or whatever else.
Scoring can be designed poorly of course and doesn't necessarily suit every game, but having an ending isn't exclusion criteria. If anything, being able to try and practice again in 30 minutes while disallowing milking for score is why they have such lasting appeal with those who get into them.
Oooh sinister1 is on the list.
Time for another awesome video before I go sleep, heck yeah.
Hmmmm. Nice vid Pap! Darthling has been trying to talk me into running hs. It is a fresh take on mtpo competition. Ima have to look into this ;)
Arcade games were played for high score as opposed to speed not just because they were often endless, but also because they lacked an in-game timer. Speedrunning is old; but all the early speedrun games were games that had in-game time. Timing with LiveSplit and retiming from recordings is so ubiquitous now that it's easy to forget old-school speedrunning was almost universally IGT, there was no LiveSplit, and only a minority of games (those with in-game replay files, like Doom and Quake) had recordings. (Some people pointed cameras at their screens, but it wasn't typical and even those who did would run out of tapes.)
MTPO being a popular game with an in-game timer allowed it to develop a thriving speedrun scene long before for example SMB... which meant all the strategies were being developed and shared by and for speedrunners. And speedrunners, as the name suggests, tend to run the game for speed.
Nothing wrong with exceptions like Pap, and high score does look like a deep and very skilled run.
Great video as always! I've loved watching the tutorials you made High Score for the knowledge, but I haven't had time to finish learning all the strats to start runs. This is on my to-do list for the summer, after promising a group of people for a while I would do this. I've been nudging people to give this a try for a while. The run lets people showcase game knowledge, while having a nice amount of problem solving that is missing from the speedrun strats.
Because it’s called “Mike Tyson’s Punch Out” and not “Punch-Out!! Highscore”
This makes no sense
Why is it called an oven when you of in the cold food out in of the hot food
you are smart asf 😀
It should be called Mike Tyson's High AF because he loves weed.
@@PapamanualPunch-Out!! Highscore in the title of the video reads like a title to a game that isn't Mike Tysons Punch Out. This is an official BreadMilk comment
Been loving your content homie :
Another great video Pap. When I was getting into highscore I thought it would be a slop but after doing one run I was hooked. I hope this video will motivate more people to play, it's so much more fun than it looks.
(Also never thought I would make it in a video 😄)
As someone who competes in virtual pinball and hosts events, it does sometimes boil down to taking the safest strategy that is also decently scoring, it's not worth it to go for something risky with a slightly better point to time efficiency rating if you can go for something really safe and still score at a moderate pace and just drag the run on with a not interesting repetitive motion. That's where good table design and point balancing comes in. A good table will make sure that there aren't any stupidly repetitive ways to safely score points and will also make sure anything risky is genuinely worth going for. In addiction to a good table never punishing you for missing an intended shot but punishing you for missing only.
I've had a passing thought about wanting to introduce a side event in what I host for a timed mode to see what would happen, where scoring efficiently is rewarded for more than survival. would also manage event length so much better since people keep getting better and getting longer traditional runs. Hearing your thoughts on how the timer adds depths to scoring has motivated me to giving it a try
That sounds good, even though I think the timer does give depth to not playing extremely safe, just taking your time and scoring slowly, I dont know how well it would translate to pinball. If the players of pinball really are that good, they might actually enjoy it, but for less good people, I think pinball is more about Survival and points accrue due to your ability to survive.
Im glad you pointed yourn point to time efficiency, thats a factor in highscore strats... excluding knockdowns, Star punches are always the most time efficient way to score points, but depending on the fight, not the most damage efficient, adding even more complexity.
It's an interesting category with a LOT of strategizing, but I can definitely see why a lot of people are hesitant to try, it's so different.
Great video. I toyed with Punch Out high score in 2017, and started working on strats for the three Minor Circuit fights; I still have a document on my hard drive from back then called "mPap HS advice chat" that's just a cut and paste of a ton of knowledge that Pap had dropped in my chat during a stream. I had some notion of eventually piecing together a full single segment high score run, but then I got distracted and stuck with speedrunning Zelda 1 for the next seven years and counting ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Now that you mention it, I do remember this happening lol.
Really interesting video! Subscribed.
RTA > SS. fight me.
This is bait.
great video
Oh my god. He did a summoning salt.
i was looking for this video the other day...
Pap punch out videos are always amazing! I know you don’t speedrun them right now, but have you given any thought to speedrunning wii or super punch out?
I dont know or own any of those games.
@@Papamanualthats fair lmao! I thought they might be fun to learn about
Great video!
I feel like low% runs are counter-intuitively the 'modern' equivalent of high score runs. Both are relatively obscure within the competitive single player scene, both can involve some mindless grinding segments that put off the majority of the core player base, and both utilise novel strategies not found in any% or 100% runs. The factors making low% relatively more popular than high score likely come down to it being possible to stream casually, potentially having long low action segments for audience engagement, as well as a time element still being present (you can gain WR achieving the same goals but improving overall gameplay). Because the potential for further potential score is to an extent finite and known, there's not as much of that feeling of "if we finish strong we can snatch the title" that makes speed running so engaging.
I am currently watching this at work and I will watch it again after work.
great video as always! Hopefully this video pulls some new players into the category! not to say im gonna try it 😅 the first half of this game was tedious enough already on ss for me.
7:30 I imagine that people taking a liking to speed running for additional reasons;
✓ You could do it with almost every game especially if you determine rulesets like "Quickest to 1 million points".
✓Speed running is almost like enjoying a firework because it's quick, but spectacular while a lot of people see high score as watching a candle burn.
✓Speedrunning is arguably easier to practice because in some cases, you could practice dozens of runs in the time it could take you to get a successful high score run.
✓ in addition, responsibilities are important so for a lot of more casual people in the speed running community could fit a 20 minute Speedrun in between getting out of class and dinner, or between putting the kids to bed and sleep.
Absolutely, I agree. to speedrun is fun, but I dont think highscore isnt fun just because its the antithesis of the speedrun. Just to counter your points for the sake of argument:
1. Cant really counter this one. Speedrunning is a bit more universal in the sense that you just set a goal and aim to complete it the fastest, whether you want to speedrun points, or game completion or fastest time to complete the Tyson code, it doesnt really matter. Its arbitrary. In fact, many contemporary sports are not "speedruns" and are infact based on score - basketball, soccer, American Football, even single player sports like highjump, long jump etc. Not everything has to be a 100m sprint or a 26 mile marathon.
2. I agree that a fireworks show could be spectacular, but I would also argue that there is also beauty in watching a candle burn. I think people just to things that are over quickly. It's all subjective.
3. Speedrunning is definitely less time consuming to learn and play, but still the highscore run for MTPO is still shorter than many other speedruns speedruns - of which people still engage in. 80 minutes is hardly a long time.
4. Basically the same as 3. Speedrunning is just less time consuming to participate in and not everyone has the time.
The point of the video was just to bring highscore MTPO into awareness. and partly a reason for me to ever play the game again should anyone contest my scores - I enjoy the competition.
Somebody probably said “Nuh uh”
Challenge: beat Punch Out!!! Without any uppercuts
How to make highscore challenges interesting - add a time bonus (or special bonuses in general on top of the time bonus) that varies depending on how fast you complete the level, then it's just routing how to obtain the most points WHILE ALSO finishing a level as quickly as possible for the added time bonus. It allows for varying and maybe even unique strategies while also still being fast paced if people don't enjoy slower paced runs.
its interesting to have a time based bonus for a sort of hybrid system, like the system Donkey Kong has. Although, I believe the Barrel boards never favour this style of play, and i think the rivet board you can sort of get extra points when its safe and you are almost at completion. Other than that, the pie stage and spring stage do favour more points for quick completion.
Punchout doesnt have a native system like that, that sort of system would need to be human imposed. That being said, I dont think its necessary to involve quick fight completion to make high score punchout fill at least some interesting niche. The highscore strategies are already pretty involved, in-depth and challenging in their own right. I have yet to see anyone, myself included, bring out the full potential of the category.
@@Papamanual I think in terms of finding people to compete in scores, it might be best to find people who 1) enjoy long sessions, 2) don't mind the learning curve, and 3) enjoy going for the highscore. I think this' a scenario where you'd need to find its intended audience.
@@Supersonic6427 I agree, thats why I made this video - to bring it into awareness that this is a way you can play the game. I cant force people to run it, all i can do is 'advertise' the idea of it.
Wild how Summoning Salt can have such a banger YT channel AND be the best at a game. Knew he was good at it but didn't know he was that good.
I'm not scared. I just don't have the level of autism required for speed runs in any context.
Sounds like what a scared person would say
Just imagine how much easier it would be to have a World Record Highscore 🏆 than a Speedrun World Record 🏆 since almost nobody does Highscores.
Well, come and take it from me then, show me how easy it is.
Dogging 90 minute cause it's 'not a speedrun', then advocating high score smh. JK bud. Really loved this video, the depth of understanding the game in the manner you do for high score is absolutely bonkers. I love how all your vids have such great clips that highlight what you're talking about, and some even humorous examples if you know the game well :) Your editing is really impressive man.
So I remember about 15 or so years ago I attempted to do a points run on this very channel. Was waaaaay back when I called myself by a different name. Series was called "Punch-out Maximum Points." Never really cared for it because I sucked, but after seeing this as well as Pap's points tutorial...I'm gonna start my own points runs. Should be fun.
I don't run punch-out but all these points really ring true with a game I run, The House Of The Dead: Overkill. The way to play for high score and speed are diametrically opposed, it's a whole new skill set you need for both, which makes it a whole new expirience, basically getting to learn a game you love twice
My own take on why scoring dropped off generally:
A good scoring system can be very, very fun, if it's designed in a way that emphasizes interesting play patterns. Lots of arcade games feature repetitive strategies to farm points which only appeal to a small subset of players. Most people do not want to run out the clock while jumping next to DK over and over. But arcade games got by with poor score design because the public leaderboard was so tantalizing. It's okay if the method isn't that fun because there's a big billboard in a public place celebrating your achievement. That's fun!
Consoles did not have that advantage. Most games through the NES didn't even have a save feature to track a leaderboard, and there certainly wasn't anything public. On top of that, score design generally didn't improve either. If the play patterns aren't fun and the best way to show your score publicly is mailing in blurry photos to Nintendo Power, then it's just not very engaging. So most people laughed off the score component of early console games. We have online leaderboards now, but those have their own issues. Besides, the damage was done.
Shmups are a standout in score because they've put so much work into making score reflect fun play patterns. You're always moving forward and only have a set number of targets to work with, so you have to find routes that maximize your yield from those, rather than finding something effective and abusing it to the maximum extent. (there are excepitons like farmable bosses but bleh) Those still have active scoring communities. I wish more genres would follow those examples and create compelling score play!
Eatng good tonight
This is a fascinating category. Maybe I should get an NES and give it a shot? I’d like to see an Australian top 2 😉
Personally I would be interested to watching a high score run at least once just to see how it goes. But I can definitely see the delay before getting to the challenging fights being a massive turnoff to viewers as much as players.
Its not that much of a delay, maybe 30s to a minute to gather thoughts or converse with chat (back in the day when I played) - about the same time as a timeout in basketball. Its tough to memorise all the strategies. Cleveland Tom said he was only closed book for half his run, he was referring to notes before and during fights.
Bullet hell shmups like DoDonPachi, Ketsui, Battle Garegga and Ikaruga are one genre that are based on scoring but aren't endless. Usually people shoot for a 1 credit clear and after that focus on learning the scoring system for even more depth to the game. Mark from The Electric Underground channel explained in his documentary "Passion Against Reason" that score-based high-level arcade play is often more interesting and less arbitrary than speedrunning. The speedrunning meta can change randomly depending on what exploits and glitches are found, and are often split in several arbitrary categories. Shmup scoring systems are often well thought out and the games are designed around them from the start. It's what allows these games to be played for thousands of hours and the player can meaningfully improve their play throughout that whole journey.
Do you have any plans for a video with an actual dive into how perfect high score fights work, similar to your "why perfect speedrun will never happen"?
I feel that the main thing with high scores being generally de emphasized as a competitive goal in most games is simply because points are often not as easy to actually gain in an intuitive way. Like for example seeing that you earned a second advantage in a high level run, most people can see that this is impressive because the concept of a race is a very well understood one in every society, even indigenous ones. High scores are often seen as lesser because many don't see much meaning in saying i got an because for all i know a million could be easy to get. Another reason is that people generally prefer tests of skill than test of skill AND endurance... I think that my final point is the main problem with commiting to this kind of skill display, just because it is simply overly tedious to actually do consistently
Sure, you can tell who is winning in a 100 meter sprint, or a swimming race. But many other sports are based on points and the highest score wins - Tennis, Baseball, Soccer, Archery, Long Jump, Basketball.
Tests of skill vs Test of Skill + Endurance I can see people be dissuaded from. But Punchout Highscore is hardly a test of endurance, its only an 80 minute run. Most MTPO speedrunners (and maybe most speedrunners in general) stream attempt after attempt after attempt for more than 90 minutes at a time. And in the end, they may be grinding some sort of ridiculously lucky thing (examples: 3/3 weathertenko or Don 2 world record) which overall, is a test of mindnumbing endurance. I dont buy that reasoning.
At least punch out and super punch out were released on arcades to participate making high scores. I find that strange and nice that super punch out for the SNES have a leaderboard for time attacks and high scores.
Took me day beat this game when came out but ring king probably game might like more
I have a question about IL records. Are players allowed to do "Another World Circuit" for tries on Hippo, Great Tiger, and Bald Bull 1? It doesn't save much time, but does cut out Don 1.
yes they can use AWC to go for IL wr's
Do Why Does No One Play Punch-Out!! Low Score?
Cause its shit.
Hard 😢
I actually did a high score run and I think it’s Top 5 on the leaderboard (as of 05/01/24) lol. The run is pretty terrible though I really had no strategy’s and just went in it blind it was mainly just for fun. I would probably do it again once I finish my Tyson IL grind
interesting video
I don’t know the answer, but I know that Matt Turk is involved
sadly not this time.
I just wish more high score based games were popular
You don't go to Tokyo for a burger and you don't go to speedrunners for score play. They are comparably niche, but score players are common in the shump scene which are basically carrying the banner of arcade design at this point.
Look for The Electric Underground or Shump Junkies. The former also covers a lot of other types of games, score is his thing still.
@@thelastgogeta electric underground is an annoying snob
@@jknifgijdfui Fair.
Im stuck on soda popinski
I wonder what Macho’s reaction would be if you beat him by decision like if you could
I think only sandman has the glitched sprite, all the others do their "winning" animation even when they are forced to lose.
@@Papamanual I’ve seen Hippo and Sandmans reaction when they lose. I saw the video from “Master Phred”. I’m guessing Machos reaction would just be his stunned face when you put him in the face.
Hi Pap
Civilization and Through the Ages could be played for score.
Obviously because nobody wants to p#ss off summoning salt.
High score tas when
because summoning salt hasnt made a video about it obviously
Hi Scores were added to arcade games for one reason, and one reason only. To get you to spend as many quarters as possible to get the highest score possible to put in your initials.
Who on the leaderboard got banned??
I only own the shitty Mr. dream’s punch out!! Not the real man’s mike Tyson’s punch out!! So I can’t even compete 👉👈
As long as its a NTSC (North American) version, the version with mr dream plays the same as the one with mike Tyson
Do you record your speedruns to UA-cam?
All the important ones are already on my channel. I havent speedran in 3 years.
I'd do some mtpo runs but I don't have any of the approved hardware :(
cant use any of the available emulators?
@@Papamanual I'd rather not commit felonies and dumping nes cartridges is a hassle. If I could dump it or obtain something like the NES Jr., then, I'd run it.
@@wiiuowner5251 fair enough.
Silly pap, punch out runners can't count.
Say it ain't so 😢
3 letters
R
N
G
I declined to say this in the video, but while RNG does play a massive factor... 250k should be achieveable in most runs if you get good enough.
I dont care for points.
High score is 100%
In the Luigi's Mansion community, High Scores are "Max%".
Nobody is scared. Why can't people just enjoy things without acting like they are better than people that prefer something else?
I dont think you watched the whole video. The other runners seen what happened to me.
23:57 MTPO strategy iceberg when?
I dont think ill ever do this lol
last