I know I’m beating a dead horse, but my theory as to why people think Sniper is op is that TF2, by design, is a game about reading what your opponent is doing, & then responding to that. The Sniper rifles kinda don’t have that, since the intended “counter play” is that you avoid the sniper sight line & you move on with your life. That feels bad. The Huntsman is just is a “seemingly” more avoidable weapon to Sniper haters (myself included)
@@skipperg4436 In what world is 150 damage every 1.7 seconds the highest DPS in the game? Every other class has higher potential damage on their primary, even SPY. Sniper only has a faster TTK on lower HP classes, namely supportive ones _he's supposed to be good picking_.
@@ShakerSilver in the World of TF2 Sniper is able to put the highest DPS of all classes. Spy in order to do damage need to stand directly behind its target and since he can't teleport right next to back of its next target he is incapable of dealing high DPS.
Another reason people might feel the huntsman is more balanced is it is generally used in much closer range fights. While it still has all of the same issues to play against as the rifle up close, it’s not as easy to kill people entirely outside of their functional engagement distances. People might be willing to accept the insta deaths if they are at least capable of consistently dealing more than chip damage to the sniper. (Goes a bit out the window with corner peeking obv. but just another observation)
Wrote basically that in the comments of the shiv episode, because the huntsman was briefly brought up there (and so arguments ensued in the comments). A huntsman sniper, intead of being on the other side of the map where you can’t do anything about him, will be in the backline of the team - further than most classes but still somewhere where you can react and potentially threaten him. Also even when travel time is short, having it be there still means that “moving unpredictably” is much more practical. So rifle snipers are just something that instakills you for existing on 80% of the map, while huntsman snipers are at a range where you can actually fight and interact with them, so they feel like an actual part of the game.
Just here to complain about how this guy made a video with the festive huntsman, a glitched weapon that has a hitbox 3 times larger than the regular huntsman.
i personaly find long range makes juking very effective(against me at least) because of how small the bullet is, how small your head is, plus that i have to wait several seconds to try again.
Its not because of the skill or anything for the sniper, its the ability to counter it that is why the huntsman is preferred, its much less annoying to be kill at close range than across the map and the huntsman forcing the closer range is why its well received
At the same time there's even less counterplay against a Huntsman at times. Again, it's had Lucksman as it's nickname for a while now. You can spam it around corners without issues and often get random kills on players who had no way to see you or even damage you with chip damage.
@@TheFoolishSamurai Most rockets don't instakill you though. Maybe you're at 25 health suddenly, but you at least get a small window to do something instead of staring at a killcam.
@@DaisiesTC Because you spawn at long range against a sniper, where you can't kill him at all. No matter how good you are at any other class, you can't kill him at his effective range. In order to close the distance, you need to avoid/fight him as well as go into enemy-controlled territory and avoid/fight the whole rest of his team. So the fact that he can insta kill you at your effective range at all can seem ridiculous; he is already unkillable at his effective range, which is the range that you can ONLY be at in 90% of the time, why not the same on the other end of the spectrum
The thing is though that the best snipers don't scope in for long and tend to go for quickscopes anyway. I don't think this change would do much. If anything the rifles should be tweaked to incentivize longer hard-scopes and more methodical play.
@@ethandavis7310 I mean if you watched the video im talking about you would know thats just false. The laser isnt for being scoped in. Its on all the time
@@SerbianKnifeFightand furthermore, just an instant of having the laser is enough to triangulate where it came from. That’s fatal to a sniper with bad reaction time
As a Pyro main, fighting huntsman snipers is realy fun. If you miss your airblast and die beacause of it its your fault and you're trash,but if you time if correctly you're a god amongst men.
oh ye, the counter class also has a counter to huntsman unlike regular sniper. And for once can gross the goddamn sightline because u can not only more easily dodge it at larger distances but also sometimes react to it and counterplay it back at someone (or just away from yourself)
I wonder what it would be like if the sniper rifles had that “woosh” wind effect that happens when you dodge an arrow if you barely dodge a shot fired by the enemy sniper using the other weapons and you see a much more prominent bullet hole on where the sniper fired. There could be a fun mechanic where each gun has its own wind sound effect, like the Sydney Sleeper having a piss stream sound or the machina had a sort of energy buzz to its wind effect along with its laser trail. Lots of cool things to be done in that avenue for sure and could give feedback that you dodged a shot from anything other than the bows
what if the dot itself also generated a sound, that might actually be interesting. Also would turn a "oh im dead i guess" into "oh god a sniper's targeting me"
It's news to me that The Huntsman is universally considered to be more fair than the rifles now. As far back as I can remember, the weapon has been memed to death for being cheap and annoying. Its one of the only unlocks in the entire game that is just as known by its derogatory nickname as its actual name. Baffles me that anyone is suddenly giving it a free pass now that the Sniper Rifle has been a focus of discussion. Happens a lot with TF2 players. "Turns out we were wrong about that thing we all complained about because this other thing is the hotter topic now."
It's a combination of the bots suddenly making people realise how broken the sniper rifles are and the aforementioned thing you brought up. It's just the bots.
that's because generally speaking the huntsman is at it's best when it's at a range that also puts you in the same risk as every other class. Lucksman in the end is luck assisting you with funny bullshit headshots, but you can still be killed and outmaneuvered by a skilled player because the huntsman arrow is a *projectile* If I were to fight against a full 12 team of aimbot snipers, I would be obliterated after I step out of spawn because hitscan and barely readable laser dots of the sniper don't fucking help me know where the sniper is. Whereas if I fought against a full 12 team of aimbot huntsman snipers, I would be able to leave spawn and get to the middle before I get pincushioned, because the huntsman requires more from the sniper beyond aiming at the head. If you're wondering why we're giving the huntsman a free pass, then that just makes you a boomer for not immediately figuring it out
If the sniper rifle in the hands of a sniper with 10,000 hours in the game did not exist, the huntsman *might* be a discussion (after random crits were dealt with). But compared to the first thing I said, the huntsman isn't even on the same playing field.
i think a reason why people have changed their minds so much on sniper is probably due to a change in culture. back in the day, sniping was seen as a fairly skillful and flashy thing to pull off, what with the advent of many quickscoping or sniper montages in general around the 2010's, with games like cod really helping to boost that. now tho, sniping i think has fallen off a lot, with the age of montages kind of dying off and a huge rise in esports thanks to games like cs:go or siege, with i think that spiking a much higher interest and discussion of balance, strategy, etc, compared to just sorta showing off. a lot of gaming communities now kinda loathe sniping in almost every game, and generally perfer other weapon types they deem more fun or skillful. i think there's many factors to this, especially in tf2, but i just think personally it just has to do with that culture change i mentioned, along with just more people of all types playing video games in general.
You are absolutely correct. The awe accorded to pure mechanical skill (ie head clicking, tracking) has decreased significantly over the years, while that accorded to other skills (eg game sense, positioning, communication, teamwork, strategy) has increased. This is just part of gaming maturing as a hobby. When people become more interested in the game as a whole, as opposed to cookie clicker skillshots, it's entirely to be expected that views on things will change with it.
No, people don't like sniper because he doesn't belong in multiplayer multi-class/hero shooters. The very concept of sniping alone is unfair. It's not fair to not be able to kill someone cause they're too far away but the enemy can kill you no issue no matter how far you are. There's not a single thing about sniping that's fair... and that's *by design*. Snipers are SUPPOSED to be unfair. Sniping is derived from real sniping, from real wars, that don't play by rules or fairness. It's all about having a range and visibility advantage. Snipers are supposed to take out their enemies from extremely far away without them knowing they're there. Sniping was NEVER about counter-combat. Putting snipers in shooters is just a product of developers putting any and all shooting mechanics from real war into video games just because they exist. Games are about fairness, both parties having equal advantage over each other, but war isn't about fairness, it's about gaining advantage. Sniper is just a very extreme example of an advantage in war, and putting it in multiplayer shooters focusing on fairness doesn't work. Sniper just doesn't belong in any shooters involving multiple other people that aren't also snipers.
@@johnnycakemusic4069 You are correct to say sniping fundamentally has no place in competitive PVP shooters of this sort; but the OP is talking about why attitudes have changed. People were fine with snipers back in the day, despite it being terrible game design, because of the reasons listed by OP. People were not keenly aware of the (correct) bad game design argument.
sniping in video games i think is something worth talking about, but i think it comes down more to fun factor rather than balance/fairness. i personally don't mind sniping as much as others, but i do understand where people are coming from and where some issues lay. discussing sniper has just sorta become a bloated topic with everyone having their own thoughts and feelings on it. it's good people are talking about this, but i think there's a lot more personal bias than people would admit. it's fine to dislike things and to even bring up valid points to explain as such, but i think a lot of people have the wrong idea on what exactly is the problem. it's just that sometimes fun factor and balance overlap and kinda make things all murky. i just wanna bring up other topics that people haven't mentioned yet since i think they're interesting to talk and think about.
The "ease" of the huntsman is overstated by many in the community. The vast majority of your shots are typically misses with it; plus it requires a fair bit of leading and positioning.
I think it's just the more forgiving Headshot hitbox that some people are complaining about. As someone who can't play TF2 because my Macbook doesn't support 32-bit apps, but also who watches a lot of TF2 stuff, I believe the Huntsman is much more well-thought-out than people give it credit for. Lower damage output so a bodyshot can't OHKO a Light class, Arcing Projectile so it’s much less effective at long range, and much less ammo so people can't spam the arrows as much, but also much faster charge time so you don't have to commit as much, and a much more forgiving Headshot hitbox because projectiles are more difficult to land than Hitscans, especially if they arc.
You're close to correctly using a semicolon! Semicolons separate two independent clauses. Your comment appears to have independent;dependent given you're using "plus" as a conjunction. In order to fix, remove the "plus" and the semicolon works well!
I’m just gonna say this right now: The Huntsman not only feels more satisfying and SIGNIFICANTLY more fun to use than the Sniper Rifle, but I have had quite a few instances where my enemies have genuinely been able to avoid being hit by my arrow because they were able to see it coming. Not only that, but the hidden downside of having your shot be wildly inaccurate if you charge for too long forces the sniper to be more active and proactive instead of passive and reactive, meaning more often than not the sniper will actually be within killing distance of everyone else. It also does less damage overall, so you can’t just go for lazy body shots with it either.
eh you can definitely still go for lazy body shots if you pair it with the SMG. Can kill someone significantly more quickly with an arrow bodyshot+SMG than with 2 rifle body shots.
@@JupixCZ I'm just saying the reduced body shot damage isn't really that much of a downside of the huntsman, it'd be completely broken without the reduced damage.
12:00 one immediately counter argument I can think of for the “sniper vs demo” situation is that although demo is good at mid range like sniper,he is ultimately a projectile class and is much weaker at long range(unlike sniper who has infinite range),which justifies why he can have the ability to fight back even at close range,while sniper is already good at mid-long range,so should not by any means have strong close range combat option to rely on(and no,the smg is not a strong option) Moreover, unlike sniper,demoman has the issue of self damage dealt by his own grenades,which quite often causes demo suicides during a scout/engi close range encounter,whereas quick scoping does not have such issues due to it being hitscan
Right, exactly. In addition, while scout does counter both demo and sniper, going after a sniper as scout takes way more time and commitment. A demo is at the front lines. You can fight him right there. A sniper has to be chased across the map. You have to abandon your team just so you can try to go get him.
Makes me wonder if all rifles had small window of time where they can't headshot at all then would that be a bit more fair to play around and deal with? Meaning at most a Sniper might do somewhere around 50 to 60 damage to whoever got up close. (Though the excess of ammo for all rifles is still bit of a problem... except for the Sleeper in my opinion.) For the record, I feel like the Classic operates best for Sniper in making his supposed close range weakness actually a problem for him to deal with where you'll either hope your team can protect you or equip the Jarate with the Bushwhacker to deal with anyone who does get close (which that has its own problem because there's only one class that can consistently get close to a Sniper with little danger to themselves if they're smart about how they do that but requires the Sniper to be occupied to not get instantly killed).
Not only that last part, but unless the scout is already damaged, the demo needs two shots on the scout, where the sniper only needs one. Even with the loose cannon you may have to worry about charging it where the sniper can just immediately go for the shot
Sniper is one of my least played classes. I randomly tried out the Huntsman the other day and i enjoyed it way more than the typical gunplay. Its also just super satisfying and super rewarding to play, in my opinion.
@@ShakerSilverFaster charge time, and the Projectile makes it at least feel like you're aiming. Also, hitboxes that don't quite match the visuals are quite satisfying to some when they're in their favor. Talk to any Bullet Hell enthusiast for more info.
I think a big reason for the shift in view on good snipers is that back before there was a bigger stream of new players so a good sniper was a rare sight but now it feels almost every game gets bogged down by some sweaty 3000 hour sniper main and it can get very frustrating
I think giving all sniper rifles the machina tracer would do a LOT to make it feel like you're doing more, it'd let you know that the enemy missed making it feel like you were actually doing something when you dodge. It would also tell you more about the snipers position, giving you more counterplay and making the interaction more... well more of an interaction rather than just a sudden random death from your perspective
I could see that, as someone who plays sniper most people don't even realize you're shooting at them until they're hit. Causing them to only recognize if they die rather than how many shots it took to properly track someone's movements and land a hit
there's no counterplay to sniper even if everyone could see his exact position at all times, it'd still just be going where you need to go and instantly dying from across the map
i feel like the entire reason the huntsman didnt get hate is because ON PAPER its slightly telegraphed, compared to anything except the machina/ heatmaker when focus is on. so people can think" i should've dodged that" instead of being angry. dosent really apply to close range quickscopes but i mean...is it weird for me that people complain about close range headshots being a thing, i mean, there's so many close range instakill options out there
The problem with close range headshots/quickshots is that they shouldn't even be allowed to happen (at least in my opinion), Sniper is already strong as is with him being a long range class
@@samtricks1966 True, though close-range headshots are difficult to pull off, so they don't happen super often, unless you're dealing with an extremely skilled player, someone using the Huntsman with its much more forgiving Headshot hitbox, or a bot.
@@samtricks1966 Why does everyone keep parroting this weak ass point as if its something every sniper can do? As scout just ADAD in close range of the sniper, he misses ONCE and he is guaranteed dead. Snipers only surefire close range defense is Jarate+Bushwacka. Pulling off a close range quickscope on a game where every other class is movement based is hard.
@@OhCrapI_He they are not difficult to pull off and they happen very, very often when you play against competent player. Like somebody who spend at lest several hundreds of hours in the game. There are plenty of those around. By the way you can just try doing in on tr_walkway. When you realize that real people don't move that much different from bots with randomized movement you will see why Sniper is OP as f-k.
In relation to feedback, the huntsman also has a distinct charge up animation (and punishes over-charging the weapon) which tells you pretty much when they're going to fire. I find this especially helpful when playing Pyro, so I can go for some cheeky reflects.
The difference is that despite the huntsmen having its faults, you have the feed back to adjust your fighting style acoordingly, which regardless of how fair it is, atleast you get engage the sniper trying to tag you to a wall
Here's a hot take I'll die by: Hitscan aim on kb+mouse is too common a skill these days to be rewarded as much as it is. You should not get to send a gamer to the spawn room just because you can keep your mouse on their model or click when your crosshair crossed their model. So many people have so much hitscan skill these days, and hence gamesense and projectile aim (which is weapon specific) needs to be significantly rewarded in comparison. If the playerbase is too skilled at a certain form of skill expression, the reward needs to be toned down, lest the game becomes skewed to favour it and smother the other kinds. This is only a problem because people have been training this easily transferable skill for decades.
I like playing TF2 on the xbox and this is partially why - the playing field feels MUCH more level because everyone's using controllers to play and aim. Classes like Sniper, Soldier and Scout, whilst still potentially very strong in their roles, don't feel quite so dominating to engage as other classes.
Too be honest I just play way too many games with projectiles so my hit-scan aim is...bad The game btw are PvZ garden warfare Pixel gun 3d (May u r.i.p) BF4 (it doesn't use hit-scan...your bullet's are actually projectiles)
@@HappyBeezerStudios funny you say that since ut99's sniper makes tf2 sniper look pathetic in comparison, its like being an infinite range scout that can headshot lmao the arena shooter design of UT does help balance sniper a lot though
Good point. Was thinking the same when the video said about in the past it was such a prestigious thing due to its skill scarcity to pull up the same nowadays. The playerbase evolves so does newcomers. Since the first dude to propose wasd for doom (as a mark of even more popularity of such in pcs) till today, fps gamers have been living with quick aim, reflexes and precision. But what i think most have kinda lost is the desire to just turn on the game to have fun.
Sniper is one of my least played classes. Mostly cause I find it boring to click on someone’s head and don’t find it too rewarding. Movement+fun kills is way more interesting than sitting/hopping around clicking on a head.
I more recently started using the air strike. Getting sick rocket jumps and then landing four rockets on a poor medic feels so good. I spent way too long venting about the air strike and then remembered where I was.
Well, it's simple and you said it yourself, it's the feedback against the huntsman and the rest of the weapons you can see or hear the weapons being fired so if it hits you or kills you, you say: I should have dodged that. Add to that the rifle is a long-distance hitscan in a short-medium distance game and the hustman sniper is usually together with his companions instead of being in a corner in the spawn
I think this "debate" was solved pretty definitively by Overwatch, a lot of things wrong with sniper can also be found in Overwatch's Widowmaker, and it boils down to similar problems. 1) Instakill hitscan vs instakill projectile. In Overwatch, Hanzo fulfills the "Instakill projectile" niche while Widowmaker fulfills the "Instakill hitscan" niche. Now, this is very, very anecdotal, but (post Hanzo losing scatter arrow), I've seen that in general, when Widowmaker is overpowered people HATE it, and when Hanzo is overpowered, people get a bit uppity but not really like, crazy upset. Even though, as you pointed out, being able to spam projectiles can be used to hide behind corners, which 2 abilities in Hanzo's kit even encourage. I think part of it, is that projectiles are, plain and simply, inherently more 'fair'. In both games. In tf2, you have things that you can use immediately, on reaction to prevent a projectile from wrecking your day, you have ubercharge (if charged), airblast, and even arguably the short circuit. You can also dodge at long ranges, see it coming beforehand (and therefore know that you're gonna get fucked) and it gives a lot more feedback. You aren't guaranteed to have the options that completely remove the need to dodge, but the fact that you CAN dodge is a benefit, whereas hitscan is absurdly difficult to properly 'dodge' because if a player can read your movement, you'll die no matter what. 2) What is, "easy" in an FPS game In Overwatch, Widowmaker is generally considered to be a very easy character, despite the fact that they are the most aim-intensive in the game. A lot of this stems from one, simple fact: In order to be good at an instakill, hitscan sniper, you only need to be good at ONE thing, aiming. This logic I feel can be applied to tf2 as well, which is why the ""historical revisionism"" of sniper being easy isn't entirely unfounded. Being good at sniper requires that you are good at aiming, that's it. Target priority doesn't matter because getting even a single pick is great, positioning rarely matters because you just have to fuck off to a corner of the map, movement only matters coming out of spawn and if you need to rotate as sniper you're probably already doing something wrong. All you have to do is find somewhere to stand, and aim. Aim for the rest of the match. This is why in Overwatch and sometimes in Tf2 you'll get people who are absolutely incredible on Widowmaker/Sniper but once they switch to a different class, a lot of their non-mechanical skills falter. Meanwhile, while you can still certainly perform amazingly with the huntsman/as Hanzo with pure aim ability, it's a LOT easier to call out some of the worse habits when you're encouraged to play closer to the field/move at ALL. Even the brief movements of jiggle peeking a corner will require using some additional skills to do it effectively. 3) Quickscopes vs. Arrow Flicks Personally I'd trade a class being more difficult to fight in close quarters over them being able to instantly kill me with no reaction from across the entire map at no risk and without moving. Regardless, I think this is just one of those 'it's not what they USED to be' things. If the huntsman was ALWAYS sniper's default, people would just respect that they're incredibly deadly in close range because of how easy it is to land a projectile against a character taking up half your screen. However, because the huntsman ISN'T, it suddenly feels like introducing a crazy new strength to the sniper, when in reality you're exchanging that strength for crippling their long-range power. Again, this is seen in Overwatch, where Hanzo is seen as more difficult to dive than widowmaker because of them having more mobility while shooting, the likelihood of you taking damage against them, and the HUGE potential damage they can do when a single shot lands against you. TL;DR: Playing other games with similar concepts can help you understand these concepts deeper
I feel like it’s unfair to compare the attitude on sniper back in the day to the attitude today, because you haven’t taken into account the playerbase’s overall rise of skill level overtime. Objectively speaking(not to pull a Zesty or anything), facing snipers is on average more threatening than it used to be because they’re more skilled. Hence a big reason why public opinion has shifted so much
honestly its not just playtime, its overall perception of snipers in games in general. Sniper's not even fucking remotely *close* to being overpowered, its just that not everyone else has grinded UT99 for hundreds of hours to see what a truely broken sniper looks like (although i don't mind ut99 sniper and the faster movement and arena shooter/power weapon structure helps balance it a lot), and counter strike basically is sight-line the game, so snipers being strong doesn't even feel bad in that context. Snipers being stupidly strong as a reward for good aim was just kinda the norm. Its also mostly kinda just that sniper almost feels like he's in the wrong game sometimes, since the feedback from sniper is so different from fighting every other class.
Is it though? I think TF2 is already old enough that the game growing even older won't really make the playerbase better on average. New players come, old players quit, and some others just happy enough with their skill level and don't consciously train to get better.
Nah, man. The main reason a Huntsman isn't as good or frustrating as the Rifle is because it's a midrange weapon as opposed to a gun with infinite range. The act of simply not being behind your entire team, mostly unseen, already makes it a much fairer option to fight against. People nowadays are simply becoming more aware of just how bullshit the concept of a sniper in a shooter is as game design evolves. Nothing but a relic of what people thought being good at an FPS was way back when.
Would you say that an infinite range gun is fine if used on a map that doesn't have comical sightlines? The infinite range really is a problem on some maps like upward first and badwater in general but I don't think the same problem exists on maps like junction (which is a terrible map but is an easy example).
exactly, its much harder to land huntsman (head)shots on long to very long ranges, most huntsman combat is in ranges where other classes have a chance to deal damage
@@pulseworks1663 Kind of. Obviously, the best solution would be to not let sniper stay so far away that they cannot be effectively be countered by anything other than another sniper. Although even without big sight lines, you got places like Upward last where they can still safely click on heads.
@@pulseworks1663 sniper is except from global design philosophy in tf2, which is that all weapons, even sentries and stickies, deal more damage closer you are to the target. So just add damage fall-off to the sniper rifle. It worked for ambassador. A full 150 headshot damage reserved only for before ~1500 hu, the range where the ambassador fall-off ends.
@@benshulz4179 Except for, you know, the crusader's crossbow, grenade pipes and anything that is boosted with crits/mini-crits. But those are completely fine to do the same or more damage at longer ranges.
The Huntsman is way more fun to use by design. That's probably why I'm ok with Huntsman Snipers, just because I always have an absolutely miserable, boring time playing ordinary sniper no matter how well I'm doing. Psychologically it feels like I was actually *outplayed* by a *player* when I die to a huntsman... whereas when I get headshot across the map by a sniper, it often feels like my opponent may as well be a bot, just standing still at the other side of the map and clicking every once in a while.
i disagree about spy isn't fun to fight, because i can at least think "oh, i need to look at my back more often", also i think that spy is annoying because he probably have thousands hours, or he stray up die after the backstab what is satisfying, and you can kill him in the next life if you pay attention, sniper?, how you can kill him?, and he don't get punished for an risk kill, because the risk kill he is still 100 meters of the point
Agreed. Mind you, I find certain classes annoying, like spy and scout, but I at least understand that I died because I failed to react. Sniper? React to what? There he is, over there, I see him, but I can’t do anything about it.
I’ve only ever been mad at spies when they’re face-stab gods. Like, seriously, it’s idiotic that certain spies can essentially jam themselves in my face, and unless my cursor is dead even with them at every second, they’ll manage a backstab. Thankfully, even in that scenario, getting some distance will allow you to counter it. With sniper, you’ve kinda gotta hope there’s a flank that isn’t crawling with the entirety of his team, which is rare, or you’re just not getting past him. Imagine you’ve got the enemy team on the ropes in payload, but oops, behind all of them is a guy who can instantly kill you 5x faster than it takes for you to reach him in impeded, let alone slogging through his entire team. Maybe you can sticky jump and try to take him out as Demo with your primary, or on random crit servers, your frying pan(I don’t care what Valve says, I don’t believe them for a second that every melee has the same crit chance. The pan is mightier than the sword due to crits). Better hope he doesn’t see you coming… and better hope he doesn’t have his jarate/bushwacka combo ready… and don’t assume you can pull that a second time on anyone but a noob.
I honestly think the amount of fun something feels to play against is the most important part about sniper's design right now. Generally I am of the opinion his balance isn't all that off. He could for sure use some tweaking, and I'm not sure what those tweaks should be, but 95% of the time I find sniper pretty unproblematic; the reason the huntsman is so popular isn't because it's more balanced, it's just more fun to play against since you have some actual feedback about what the sniper is doing in a way you don't get as much with normal sniper. Like you said, it's much more satisfying to outplay a huntsman sniper since you know much more clearly that you made him flub his shot with unusual movement or tech, and that's much more satisfying. I think Dane did a hot takes video recently where he talks about sniper and in it he talks about how it feels like the sniper has relatively little direct defensive interaction you can take against him that feels meaningful aside from just.. avoiding his sightline. I think that opinion comes from the fact that you never know what the sniper's doing at those ranges, and the counterplay you do have has absolutely no feedback on how effective or close the encounter was. For all you know, the sniper could have been asleep at the keyboard and suddenly woke up to fire off a random shot in your vague direction, and that kind of ambiguity in feedback feels not great. The huntsman mostly resolves this so people are more willing to look kindly upon it. If all his rifles had feedback similar to the huntsman from the outset, I think this whole sniper balance discussion would be a lot less prevalent because people are going to have positive and fun interactions with sniper more often as a result of the feedback.
But at the same time Huntsman has enough jank to itself to feel even more BS then rifles half the time. Hell, huntsman allows the Sniper to put himself in even less risk and, again, has a way more forgiving hitbox that often times feels, again, even more BS then rifles do.
@@simplysmiley4670 The point is that while Huntsman is nearly as or more powerful than the Rifles in some situations, you at least get feedback on what you did wrong. You can roughly see where he is aiming, your weapons do decent damage at those ranges, you can dodge to a certain extent. With rifles, especially at very long ranges, you either randomly die or nothing happens. With all the flash of projectiles and other enemy players taking up your screen, figuring out where the sniper is in time to do something about it, is vague.
It's not just more fun to play against, it's also more fun to play with. Rifle gameplay often boils down to standing on a point and tracking targets. There is no movement, no turns, no dance of death with the enemy. And tracking targets is something you have to do with basically all other classes as well.
I agree that, as a blanket change, Sniper having less ammo on all of his primaries (except maybe Sydney?) ought have reduced ammo. Forcing sniper to play around sources of ammo would, among many other things, reduce uptime on watching sightlines, alleviating some of the intense incomparable pressure Sniper can place from afar. Behaviorally, Snipers would also be more likely to be hanging around ammo spawns and Engie dispensers, potentially adding risk/reward to positioning, and making ambush classes (scout, spy) more easily identify ways to pick them off.
I think one of the main issues with sniper is it's mostly a game feel issue and not really a balance issue... If you'd look at Project sonic 06, a fan remaster of the disaster Sonic 06, most of what the remaster actually does is just fix bugs and jank and improve the game feel. That's it, and i feel like the discussion with sniper should be a lot closer to that than balance as is. It still sucks to be fully charged body shot by jose.gonzalez.2011 from across the map with the only warning being his sniper dot you couldnt easily see. It's a discussion that's a lot more complex than people give it credit for. Great couple of videos you've posted on this subject so far fish!
It also has to do with risk involved, with a sticky trap the demoman at least has to be where the trap is at some point, a spy has to be right behind you to stab you and is put in a (way too) risky position afterwards, non-random crits are usually earned, and at least when they aren't with the phlog for example, the pyro has to be within rocket juggling distance to flame you down
@@sock4118 Standing absolutely still in this game is a death sentence, which is something sniper needs to do to charge a body shot and doesnt have the resistances nor the HP pool to be aggressive. If his frontline is gone he is equally fucked. Having the skill and knowledge to do insane headshots is not common and its not easy.
@@bonkbonk420 Outside of other snipers, I don't recall any other classes that can really punish a Sniper at long range, maybe rocket jumping soldiers 50/50. Sure it's a problem for short ranges, since that's where he's "weaker"
Okay hear me out: scope glare. It gets brighter based on the sniper’s charge amount and maybe has a slightly different colour if the sniper is aiming directly at you
on the contrary i think sniper charging his shots isn't really the issue, so doing a "sniper becomes more obvious the longer he's scoped" doesn't solve the issue of quickscopes being such a threat (in fact it just indirectly buffs them). so what if instead, scoping in actually took a small-but-not-insignificant amount of time to do so? hell, most snipers in other FPS games have a distinct aiming time, and that's where quickscoping was _born._ it's during this time you could give sniper a scope glare flash (perhaps with slight team color tinting to make it even more appropriate). as a hypothetical scenario, imagine you're in BLU spawn on upward. the gates lift, you head out. in the distance you see a distinct red flash. you realize "oh, that's a sniper" and also that you have to make a decision right now to avoid getting shot. what then?
I think the problem is that because sniper has a very high skill ceiling, and with how long the game has lasted, many if not most (also from better snipers being able to demolish other ones more than every other class could) snipers now are very high skilled, so if an uncletopia match has even one sniper, the team without has no choice but to assume that they have thousands of head shots. Whereas many years ago most snipers hadn't had as much time, so very skilled ones were far less common.
That’s not even getting into the skill of the entire rest of his team. He can be a half-decent sniper, but on a decent team, he’s pretty much shielded from anything. Back in the day, you could exploit the fact that not every person on the enemy team had intimate knowledge of every map, and could exploit that to get behind them and kill a pesky sniper. Now, it’s a coin-toss as to whether that’s the case in casual, with the odds being 60/40 in favor of the flank working… but those 40% times when it doesn’t work certainly aren’t rare, and can be frustrating when all you want to do is get undominated. On Uncletopia, forget it. I’d wager you’d have a better chance of unboxing an unusual than catching any sniper there off guard.
@@bonkbonk420 probably not infinite, but the skill ceiling for sniper is astronomically high. a good enough sniper practically has no weaknesses. snipers are allegedly weak at close range, but good enough aim can completely circumvent that. no other class can eliminate their own weaknesses like that, or if they do, they have to trade off something for it
@@bonkbonk420 "Infinite" stems from the simple math consideration that while 100% hit rate is only possible for a bot, there are records of players that hit so consistently their precision can only be differentiated in decimals of 99%, i.e. one guy is 99.999% precise, the other 99.9%, but that doesn't matter because the margin for completely shutting down an enemy team is reached at 90%. It's "hyperbolically infinite" because once you're at the point of always hitting, skill improvements are a black box. The important part is that there _is_ a space where the difference in skill can be any of the infinite amount of numbers between 100 and 90, without any meaningful difference. That's the conclusion - no meaningful difference, between bots and the players above the arbitrary margin of skill needed to never miss.
i think the biggest problem with sniper is that the recent bot and cheater plagues made people function on high alert whenever they see a sniper. Now a sick flick shot isnt met with "holy shit nice shot bro", but rather with "yall got cheater on your team"
That’s part of it, but it’s also just fatigue. Good aiming skill was something to be rewarded back in the day because it was so uncommon, and the game still felt pretty new to many people. Now, because people have been honing their aiming skills for decades, and not just in TF2, aiming feels like less of a skill and more like a basic expectation, whereas gamesense, positioning, tracking, leading, etc. have risen in respectability. In an era where I’ve pretty much figured out most of the tricks of most maps, if a Demo can actually lead me to a surprise sticky trap instead of spamming at me, I’ll say “woah, that was clever”. Whereas good snipers are dime-a-dozen and it just feels like an inconvenience when I’m in a fight and suddenly, I’m taken out by something I couldn’t really have seen coming.
I'm gonna echo what a few other comments have been saying. I think the main differences are the ranges they're primarily effective and the sense of counterplay. Sniper is the only class whos reliably that powerful at those ranges. The major counter play is not engaging him in the first place and just not existing where he is. If you have actually managed to close the gap on him it feels really bad when you get in and he can still get you with the quick scope. With the Huntsman he's kind of forfeited his reliability at long range so now fighting him feels a lot more fair. You're both fighting at, theoretically, each other's ideal ranges and you can dodge his arrows the same way you'd dodge a Demo or Soldier. Sure if he lands the shot you probably die but he's now supposed to be a threat at those ranges.
Regarding the sniper rifles, I'm of a mind to give them all Machina trails. It'll at least show you if there's a hostile sniper somewhere if he kills the guy in front of you. At worst make the scope-in blank out for another 0.05 seconds.
I still have some issues with your overall thoughts. I think you left out/didn’t give focus to something in favor of the huntsman The ability to reflect it makes it have an actually interesting matchup with pyro. It makes you feel super skilled if you pull it off, and ultimately reflects how people view it as more fair to deal with than a hitscan bullet
I definitely think the Bot Crisis exaggerated the grudges people have against the Rifles. But Dane put it best recently: Sniper isn't fun to play against, that doesn't make him overpowered.
I always think of close range quickscopes as basically the same thing as trickstabs, both are last ditch efforts to save one's self and take lots of skill (sometimes luck) to pull off but missing will (should) result in one's death EDIT: Quickscopes are harder to deal with if you're one of the classes that CAN'T survive it but is far easier to deal with if you are one of the classes that CAN survive it compared to trickstabs, both quickscopes and trickstabs take a lot of skill and risk to pull off but the reward for trickstabs is better than the reward for quickscopes as you'll one shot all classes unlike quickscopes (which is fine)
@@Potato_the_third I think it'd be an interesting experiment for sniper to have some sort of falloff, whether regular or reversed, if less drastic. like 75% instead of 50%. With regular, snipers need to move a little closer to the front for that OHKO ability, risk = reward. 150 dmg -> 112, still high, but not lethal, unless you charge up more. With reverse, sniper is still powerful at range, but can no longer OHKO healthy scouts.
@@HappyBeezerStudios On paper it should, but you can still land a headshot anyways because stupidity. This and short-range quickscoping would be a non-problem if you couldn't headshot unless fully charged, which is most likely what the original devs intended.
The huntsman - can’t instakill you with a body shot - is really only effective at the range where every other class is effective - can be dodged at mid to long range - has a visible tracer round - has sound effects to let you know when the sniper is firing at you - has a limited ammo pool - leaves visible arrows at the point of impact, revealing the presence and rough location of a huntsman user Stock - can Insta kill you regardless of your health - can Insta kill you at any range - effective at a range where no other class in the game is effective - can’t, despite what you argued, be dodged. You can only make yourself harder to hit, which applies to literally every weapon in the game. Doing this usually slows you down, giving the sniper time to charge up a body shot and Insta kill you anyway - provides almost zero visual or auditory feedback to those fighting against it - massive ammo pool Truly a mystery as to why people prefer the huntsman. Also, I feel you glossed over this very quickly and then moved on; if something isn’t fun, it should be changed to be fun. You said yourself that sniper in general isn’t fun to play against. The majority of people who aren’t high tier competitive players would probably agree with that sentiment. Therefore, the class should be changed to be more fun, regardless of how ‘balanced’ it might be. Just like how, in the case of the huntsman, the hit box isn’t fun. Therefore it should be changed.
I personally prefer both playing and fighting a huntsman because if a regular sniper misses a shot, most of the time its not a big deal unless someone is actively engaging you (I actually dont mind close-range headshots because it is difficult to do and its easier to dodge then the jarate+bushwacka's melee registration), but because the huntsman makes it easier for you to do close to mid range engagements which are more dangerous for the sniper, a huntsman missing is going to be lethal a lot more of the time. I also think that someone who's put hundreds of hours into rifle sniper is far more likely to shut down entire sections of a map then someone who's put the same time into the Huntsman, again because its weaker at the ranges rifles are dominant at. And while I dont think making the rifles projectiles is a great idea I think the rifles still need to give more information about when a sniper is aiming, which I think having a team color tinted glare when they start aiming would be helpful while keeping it to the art style of tf2
TF2 Classic solved the issue of the Huntsman being busted by removing the whole secondary hitbox for the arrow, now requiring the Sniper to actually aim for the head with his bow. It isn't as popular as in vanilla TF2.
IIRC projectiles used to the large box for detection because the way server tracks projectiles in general was less accurate, so the risk is that even well aimed arrows may get screwed over by ping.
Well, the same people crying that the Sandman was overpowered due to there being no “counterplay the moment you’re hit” clearly have a different opinion on the huntsman that will straight up instakill a Scout despite not even connecting with their head at all. Double standards.
Hear me out: What if every other class had subtle indicators that a Sniper is aiming at them and where he is. Mild Spidey-senses, if you will. Perhaps an arrow pointing to them that quickly fades in with say, 60% opacity. That way, you can actually see the Sniper kill you, and knowing where Sniper is allows for much better counterplay. Not to mention no other class has a hitscan weapon that can one-shot anyone without a random crit.
@@hiei7682 I think there is a dot that shows up while scoped in, but Sniper players have developed techniques to hide it. Having the full laser visible would solve the problem, and would let Sniper players use it to intimidate players the same way a boss's telegraphed attacks would.
As much as i hate bfn. Deadbeard and cactus have light flares that make their locations shine from a distance when their scoped and let you see them, and they use more of a long ranged revolver then proper snipers
Terrible idea. In other games where this happens is due to discourage anyone with a sniper from camping. In TF2, sniper is rewarding for being able to hold still charging a shot in a shooter where everyone else has movement tech. I also disagree a lot with this overall idea that sniper is never seen before you see him. Engineer would have a quite similar issue with his sentries but this isnt the case, because good sentry places are only so many of them and you should expect them to be there.
I know hes making a point about the Huntsman being good at close range and is easier to use at close range but is that not the ENTIRE point of using it? That anything outside of close-medium range is more luck then skill? But the closer the enemy is the more skill is required to land those flicks on the scout whos straffing you? Not to mention you dont get a gunslinger effect when you equip the huntsman, you dont gain any health or special melee crit mechanic by equipping it, youre still just as vulnerable as you were beforehand
6:30 "kind of a dumb way to play [Pyro] that's often just as rewarding, if not more so without nearly as much technical effort" W/M1 is all a 2007 flamethrower does the skill comes from positioning, timing, and knowing what fights to take It's the same skill-set as medic, but medic doesn't kill you so people don't criticize medic for being a noob class
medic is being targetted by the whole team and needs to know how to surf and other evasive things pyro isnt op at all but he is not a hard class in the slightest
Rifle sniper: Leave spawn, dont see 5 red pixels on my screen, die instantly Huntsman sniper: Leave spawn, see the arrow, a projectile coming at me and jump to not get headshot, then im aware theres a sniper and can decide what to do next. This video just seems to be trying to prove that current sniper is not unfun to fight agains and overall way easier to play as nowadays wih the current hardware standarts by basing youself on a vision from before said standarts were a thing, looking at an outdated view on a thing doesnt validate the current reality. Sorry for the babyrage and broken english but defending this class whose only requirement is good aim for instant kills with the sniper rifle (which is a price a little too cheap in my opinion) and saying its somehow the better option over having some sort of indicator or counterplay (you can at least airblast/short circuit arrows ffs) is just a little baffling, but we all know that fish is a sniper main anyways so this comment will just be disregarded as "free hate"
Okay, so I've recently played Sniper as a novice and played against him, especially as a Pyro, and I have to say that the assertion that both of them have a Slow Firing Speed is wrong. It's the Sniper rifle that is moderately slower than the Huntsman, with the Huntsman being something that is not only incredibly fast but pushes the Sniper to the frontlines the most out of every other class.
Huntsman is less aggrovating to fight against because you can see arrows being spammed from arrows in the wall or the team colored trace and just wait one out and then cross. The sniper rifle is instant if the sniper dot is hidden (+ if not a headshot the Huntsman kills 0 classes in comparison to the 4 with the rifle)
I think the real lesson here is that all the sniper rifles need are bullet trails, since that's like 80% of the feedback that makes the huntsman seem less annoying.
i fully believe it’s entirely because of feedback like what was said in the video , on paper the huntsman and the rifles DO do the same things, but simply because the huntsman gives more feedback inherently (the projectile, the wizzing sound when it passes by you head, the thud of the arrow hitting the floor) all gives the enemy player that “wow that felt awesome!” compared to the rifles very small bullet hole in the ground that the enemy player probably wouldn’t even see. its sort of like that one game (can’t remember the name) where players consider the thompson, which had really meaty and responsive sounds was overpowered while the mp5, which had really weak sounds, was really bad, even though both weapons had identical stats.
In the discussion of sniper balance, im reminded of an idea i had once for balancing him. In Meet the Sniper, theres a scene where sniper shoots through an enemy heavy and indirectly hits a demoman, causing the demoman to flail wildly and fall into a pit and explode. My idea is that, upon a sniper headshot, the enemy player has a brief window where they are still “alive” and can retaliate before falling over dead. Its not a perfect answer to sniper, but it alleviates a part of the issue with sniper, wherein its basically impossible to react to a headshot. It also incentivizes good positioning on the sniper’s part, if not, the enemy player who they just one-shot can turn around and mow them down instantly.
I think turning the dot into a laser is the best solution. It fixes the issue of not seeing the Sniper from a mile away and it rewards quick shotting. And if you get quick shot from a mile away That's so impresive you can't get mad at that. Also the Ammo count so missing means something but I don't have to tell you that.
I don't think the move is to make sniper play quicker. He's supposed to be slow and methodical for picks. Honestly I think they should just remove every rifle other than the classic
Why not make every Sniper's rifle like a Widowmaker's rifle from Overwatch? Leave a smoke trail behind every bullet you shoot. I know that Machina would require a stat change, but changing one weapon shouldn't be complicated.
Sniper is fundamentally encouraged to hardscope and stand still holding an angle with the charged shot mechanic. There is only so many spots a sniper can be effective on good maps. We dont have this discussion with the engineers turrets and the sniper is just as immobile as a sentry if you want to be as effective as you can be. All sight lines on a good map are limited because you need to hardscope. Id be willing to argue some of his more oppressive sight lines are only enabled when the team can hold a flank. By himself, the sniper needs a skill gap to be able to fight everyone 1v1 and come out on top.
As someone who plays the funny bow guy let me drop my 2.50$ 1) Huntsman just gives more info. If im peeking a corner with my team (lets say Upward last Offensive side.) and were going into that big room with the pit where red's spawn. If my medic gets picked off by a rifle. he could be anywhere in that room. if he gets domed by a huntsman. I can better tell where hes at and gauge his options based on his position. 2) The huntsman has a slower Rate of fire. Despite the fact that the huntsman charges faster, its rate of fire is slower. that's because after you shoot a shot there a half second of holding the bow in the position then dropping it down and raising it back up with another arrow. The rifle just un-scopes, cranks a lever and re-scopes and then has that .25(?) second wait time before he can fire again. The reason why people like fighting huntsman because hes just not getting as many chances to just one shot things. 3) The huntsman is a close range weapon rifle players play far and long meaning they don't have to go far to be in effective range. the Huntsman has to close the gap. There's just some points where im just like. "welp im just out here. can think of anywhere to shoot that's safe to peek."Sniper sight lines don't apply as much to huntsman. Sniper does not have a balanced issue: sniper has a interactive issue. You don't interact with a sniper at long range unless you're a sniper. You can interact with a huntsman. also taking damage from someone peeking and shooting is.....just kinda a thing man. crit rockets, stickies, sniper head shots etc. there a lot of damage that is hard nearing impossible to react to. a good amount of things in tf2 will one shot you, most things will 2 shot you.
I think sniper rifles need to have a lens flare, like when your scoped in, theirs a distinct light on the snipers scope that let's you see them from a far.
It takes skill to get a point blank headshot with the rifle, and it takes skill to get a long range headshot with the Huntsman. What it sounds like to me is that the rifle and Huntsman are two weapons of roughly equal power, but have opposite use cases. In fighting game terms, the rifles are zoners, and the Huntsman is a rushdown.
I simply enjoy playing with the huntsman more than a rifle. I get terrible tunnel vision when I try to focus. The quick draw and no scope nature of the huntsman just lets me keep moving. It has also helped me better focus on how people move, and helped my aim with other projectile weapons as well. My only gripe is that I wish the projectile was slightly faster. I have gotten used to its speed now, but it does feel a tad slow nonetheless.
Honestly I agree the no scope thing. In a COD game I used to play with my friends we often played Gun Game and there was always this one rifle I was better with than my friends. It was red and had an iron sight which was supposed to make it harder to aim but it killed in 1 shot and I would just fly through this weapon with ease while my friends struggled with it. I preferred the Iron Sight on rifle weapons from than on since I could actually see around me, though I also liked the Thermal Scope since I could more easily see if someone is there
Hi! I’m a sniper main. I love both the huntsman and sniper but honestly perform worse with the huntsman. The jankiness of the huntsman hit box always felt discouraging to me. However I’m %100 a long distance support unit so I use the huntsman on maps that lack good sight lines. I do agree that it’s honestly better to at least be able to see who killed you in the sense of the rifle. I dislike the lack of downsides to the stock rifle though, like the lack of feedback to my missed targets, which is probably why I want the Shooting Star (a machina reskin). I love the idea that no matter if I hit or miss my shot, there’ll be a trail anyone can notice and locate me from. Side note, it is kinda frustrating to be a sniper main when the sniper aimbots are so rampant. Some people may get so paranoid after encountering them that they end up so quick to accuse snipers who happen to hit them in a way that in their eyes doesn’t seem right. Overall, I agree with a lot of points in this video! Nice shot, mate! Edit: Typo.
Its certainly ego inflating when you get a lot of "hes cheating" and kicks just because you essentially just know how to flick. These experiences really make me feel like a lot of the complaints is just because there is a skill gap. At what point isnt it all just based on saltiness?
@@xanious3759Nah, too often I’ve been put on a team where Im against a bunch of 3-5k hr veterans who all queued together, while my team is comprised of newbies who solo-queued. Granted, Uncletopia has actually helped in this regard, but even when that doesn’t happen, I’ve found more often than not I’ll be against a really experienced sniper who hides behind his entire team, and seems untouchable due to range.
I agree with the overall point you were trying to make that just because a class is disadvantaged doesn't mean that they still can't come out on top, but since when is Demo bad at close range? And on top of that, since when does Scout counter Demo, the class who can place stickybombs?
theoretically, a scout at point blank range means Demo risks blowing himself up from his own splash damage, either pipes or stickies, unless Demo resorts to melee.
I really think when it comes to discussing how these two interact with the rest of the game the point of contempt isn't close range headshots, rather the long range interactions (lack thereof, really). Corner peeking with a Huntsman can get you a few cheeky kills but it really doesn't fire fast enough to make it viable over trying to actually play the game, not to mention its lower reserve ammo. Most Huntsman Snipers will try fighting more aggro in close to mid range, which feels significantly better to fight because of both having feedback and because you actually get to physically retaliate in that interaction. If you see someone holding a sightline with a rifle your two main options are not existing there or having an aneurysm while walking, and both feel like ass because you're not really eliminating that threat, just briefly putting it aside. I'd personally much rather die in close range occasionally to a jank hitbox than constantly having to avoid an entire area of the map and play super passively to not risk instantly dying in a one-sided exchange.
I really like Dane's perspective, it's not that Sniper is particularly unbalanced it's that he's lame. There's a distinct lack of feedback engaging with a Sniper in comparison to any other class and it means he sucks to die to pretty much always which is why a good one is so infuriating. That and his range being pretty much infinite with no risk and certain maps having very oppressive sightlines.
Yesterday I was trying to learn sniper and got 8 headshots in entire payload match, by the end of it, I switched to demoman and proceeded to outsnipe the sniper that I was losing to because sniper is easiest class in the game with no counterplay. Had he switched to huntsman, he may have started killing me again, because sniper playing huntsman and hugging a corner is equivalent to being a heavy or a sentry and being cornerhugged by demoman/soldier. Except even as a scout, you're not fast enough to go around the corner and blast him before he just does a 360 on you. The only real counterplay to such huntsman sniper is taking entirely separate route to get him from behind or sticky spam. By the way, worst class to play against is direct shit aimbotter who always has his banner up so not even aimbot can kill him.
I like the Richard Hammond comparison to compare both weapons. The sniper rifle is the weapon where once a pixel of your forehead appears from the corner you get headshot and you die. The huntsman spams an arrow down a hallway and once you walk out of the corner you get headshot and you die.
I've eaten too many of Hanzo's lucklogs over the years to have a problem with the huntsman anymore. It feels tame in comparison, if just from the comparatively-modest fire-rate.
I love the huntsman, I much prefer it over the rifles cause of just how satisfying sinking up a projectile to an enemies head is. Clicking on heads is clicking on heads, gets a bit stale after awhile but with the huntsman your out there with the rest of the team fighting it out not knowing what will happen next. It feels like im playing more of the game than if im just standing there waiting for people to come on my screen. Close range headshots to me are pretty balanced because of just how squishy sniper is and how little mobility he has, if you miss your shot huntsman or otherwise you are screwed.
I take some issues with the argument around 8:50 because I would presume that if the sniper's rifles were made into projectile weapons they would A) Be after a reworking of the projectile hitboxes so that BOTH the huntsman and the rifles use the hitscan hitboxes rather than the projectile hitbox - or at the very least polish it up a little, and B) It would be so fast that the sniper could not be fast enough to move out of the original firing spot (when the bullet hit its target) unless they were firing from very far away. Other than that other balancing mechanics could include: a audibly distinct sound (and maybe even HUD 'noise') that lets players know exactly where a rifle has been fired from (this would also make the Sydney sleeper and the Hitmaker have unique qualities based on a lower volume shot) or a clinching mechanic where if a sniper is close to any enemy he is unable to scope and drawing the bow is much slower. Not saying these are ideas I would necessarily go with but they could be thought about
@@samtricks1966By that logic the bots are good because "Can't have good times without bad times" Good is good, fun is fun, unfun isn't fun, and having unfun moments in the game doesn't somehow amplify the fun moments, it's just less fun overall. The only positive I feel when there isn't a godlike sniper in the match is "Thank God I can finally play the game"
@@ScurvyBoibut it does, if you had only good moments in the game, eventually it wouldn’t be fun anymore. Good things should be balanced out by bad things so the good things stay special and fun.
@@henrynagel7175 That makes no sense. Bad things in a game only discourage you from playing it, hoping the good things outweigh it. Would you consider the bots a good thing then? I mean since it makes matches with no bots special by your logic. Or I guess they are "bad" but the contrast makes it a positive, which still doesn't make sense. If the game randomly crashes, is that positive? Does it make the moments where it doesn't crash somehow better? No. Same as this, I'm sorry but my fun with TF2 is not improved by having lame and unfun things.
No. You got all wrong what I hate about the sniper rifle. It's unfair/not fun because it can get you at any range and covers an ungodly amount of space, often times without there being a way to fight back at all. You're not really fighting a sniper, because how the heck are you supposed to do damage to this thing 8:45? No, when you are "fighting" a sniper rifle, either you are prey, or the sniper has overextended and isn't playing sniper right. The huntsman, on the other hand, can't do this 8:50 consistently at all without psychic powers. The corner peeking thing is much more easily dealt with than the rifle's space dominance, because the huntsman can't be at every corner at once, and needs to actually be close to the corner and thus also vulnerable to rocket spam, sticky spam, pipe spam, a FaN scout flying around the corner and killing you because the arrow happened to miss, you name it. It's not an ever-present instant kill threat at all times you need to be concerned about just for trying to get out of spawn.(this is why I'm a spy main. I just don't think snipers are fair, don't have to deal with them much if I have cloak, and I take pleasure in killing every single one I see) The huntsman is meant to be strong at close range at the cost of being weaker long range. The huntsman's ability to oneshot classes without warning at close range is fair enough considering that he has 125 health and can basically be oneshot or two shot in return anyway. The rifle doesn't have to deal with these petty risks. He's not really a sniper anymore, and to compare the two is like comparing the demoman and the demoknight. The only basis you have is that they're the same class, which is not enough considering how the huntsman is a subclass and can't dream to fulfill the oppressive role that the rifle does. The huntsman is a glass cannon with very exploitable weaknesses much like spy which everyone knows is cucked by his lack of power(though spy players enjoy it), while the rifle is just a cannon.
To elaborate, it's not just problem of feedback. Don't get me wrong, you can absolutely juke out a sniper, but the fact that you juke him and he just gets to shoot again and again and face very few repercussions is stupid.
As someone who's entire time playing sniper is huntsman, it's honestly a bit of both, the hitboxes definitely help but if you're good at leading huntsman at the same time you can become absolutely terrifying
@@nexusthenormie5578 Agreed, the power in learning how to lead shots is fairly important. Especially when it comes to airborn targets like soldier or demo's on degroot keep.
I think the main reason for the change in opinion on the huntsman is down to understanding. It went from being the Lucksman to an item with a mechanic that we actually understand, and thus can develop skill in the use of.
As a sniper main, and i've been a sniper main for 12 years. I miss when being good at sniper was something to be proud of. It's not as fun when you hit a couple really nice shots just to get told your class requires no skill.
I’m glad it’s no longer “git gud” when you die to a class who can kill you from any range, is often so far up the ass-crack of his teams defenses that he’s pretty much untouchable, and whose only real weaknesses are to his own class, and his own mistakes. That’s not something you can get better against, you pretty much just have to ignore that path until the sniper starts getting sloppy, or his team overextends and get nearly wiped. aiming is great and does require both practice and skill, but there’s gotta be something to limit it from being easily abused by the myriad of people who have mastered it.
@@Brother_Piner there are ways to pester the sniper, but it comes to a bit of gamesense and a fat load of luck. but if you manage to aim punch the sniper when he is quick scoping he will miss and you can close the gap. depends also on map. i feel like sniper is only op on maps i dont play :p
The Huntsman is the embodiment of how effective aesthetic feelgoods are in altering how we feel. To the person against the sniper, it's full of feedback that FEELS reactable even if it's not, and to the sniper there's so much more 'you killed a guy, good job' response than with the rifles. I haven't played TF2 for years, and even I got that feeling of 'maybe I should boot up that game again' from the classic image of someone pinned to the wall by a headshot.
What if all sniper rifles had the Machina tracers, but the Machina had a big laser when scoped in? Would that make sniper a bit more fun to play against? I remember a Shounic video where he gave every sniper rifle a laser, and that just sorta felt like shafting it. The Tracers feel like a fair middle ground to me. Opinions?
I could go into a whole tirade about snipers headshots at close range, but I feel like this sums it up the best: “If spy isnt allowed to be strong at long range (ambassador nerf), then why does sniper get a pass at close range?” *just because it’s difficult to pull off doesn’t mean its balanced.*
I'm glad you mentioned the revisionism surrounding this topic. It felt quite jarring to me, having played TF2 back in the day, to suddenly see so many popular opinions flipped on their head. TF2 Used to be all about Heavy stacks, Spies dominating lobbies and Snipers being free kills. Now, Heavy and Spy are both considered the weakest classes and Sniper is the OP class. I guess it's a result of the player skill ceiling going up, balance changes and the type of people who play TF2 becoming much more niche over time. Nowadays it is expected of a Sniper player to insta quick scope everyone in their fov, for people to communicate efficiently against spies, hit their explosives directly at heavies etc.
I agree with a good chunk of what you say about the huntsman and rifles having much in the same problems, but to say it's an illusion of feeling better to fight would be completely discounting how much tactile feedback really does play into a game at the most basic level. Same problems? Yes. I'd argue that snipers in *every* shooter have the exact same problems. 90% of the time, the only people who enjoy the inclusion of snipers in video games are exclusively the people using them. The whole "huntsman feels better to fight" statement and "they share the exact same problems mechanically" statement do not have to be mutually exclusive. That said, I also agree with the idea that projectile snipers would do nothing to help the problem. I feel like sniper's greatest problem *is* his damage output. And I believe that that's his problem because it is literally the only thing he brings to the team as a *support* role that doesn't need to be in the fight. Medic can shift the weight of the game with an ubercharge in moments, but unlike Sniper, he has to be with the team, in the fight. You can minimize that by hiding a little further back, not approaching chokes without escort, etc. But at the end of the day, he is present in the "battlefield". On a good chunk of maps, the sniper does not have to take any of that risk to *also* swing the weight of the game heavily. Spy is no exception, but he has to be physically present and in the thick of a nest to do his sapping job or in melee range of at least one enemy at all times to backstab. Sniper is the only "swing-class" that doesn't have to put himself at substantial risk to do his job, the obvious exception being that there is not only a sniper on the enemy team, but that that sniper is *required* to be better or at least competitive. The only times sniper is at a true disadvantage, even against his "counters" is when he, himself has made a major mistake either for the sake of being funny or just not paying attention. He can remove the fear of backstabs. He can remove the fear of melee engagement. He can swing just about every encounter he has in his favor except in the case of the enemy sniper just being *better*. And when the enemy sniper is that good, he's typically causing enough problems for the team as a whole that sniping may've been the only real option for mitigating his impact. You see it plenty even in these super competitive nocrit/nospread community servers where a single competent enough sniper essentially chooses the team who wins on a coinflip.
The huntsman deserves to be in the game, solely for giving a purpose for new snipers to use any other secondary than whatever counters who killed you, and being able to be more active as sniper while still requiring aim, makes it into a weapon that is for being active, while the rifles are designed to be as the game describes it ‘campy’
@@troy242621 I think not. Sniper are balanced (in any casual or competitive) by how hard it is to hit headshot (unless the player is cheating but that isn't the way you should play at any classes) which he need to 1-shot (or spend 3,3 seconds of doing 0 damage while other class can do ~450 damage first in close range. build a sentry, reload almost full clip even without any reload speed bonus, etc.). It's just that there is nothing you can do as his enemy in long range (except miniscule bullets damage or projectile that take a year to get him) which is unfair. Also don't forget the training mode and MvM where the need of making fun to fight against is gone, just fun to play as (Yes i know sniper-bot exist but they are not annoying by the existence of laser and cover). Maybe he just need MvM's sniper-bot laser beam, remove/rework badly design map with big ass sightline, nerf the Jarate and reserve ammo so camping unfair spot that is usually far from ammo packs & common dispenser spot require more aim then it's fun to fight against.
@@michaeljonathan9715 That's not balanced, though. It's hard to do, but not balanced. If you can do it consistently, then it stops being balanced, no matter the effort you put in to achieve that.
I think the swinging of that pendulum between the rifle and huntsman is that there are a lot more fps with hitscan-esq gun play, meaning it is far more likely that people who play games would be naturally skilled with hitscan weapons compared to the huntsman forcing the player to lead their shots.
I just think a class or weapon that can one shot should be the weakest options. It’s why I’m okay with spy being where he is. He can one shot you if either you’re not paying attention or he’s playing out of his mind. I’m not in the sniper is easy or op camp, but for a class that can one shot, he’s too good. I always use this as an example, but the Kraber from Titanfall 2 is a good one. It can one shot you if it hits you anywhere, but it’s slow, has a low ammo count, has a projectile, there’s tons of things that just nullify it’s one shot capabilities. All that while still being usable, and the playerbase not tends to not have a problem with it, it’s usually pretty respected because you are crippling yourself by using it. It’s one of the worst weapon options in the game, but that makes it well liked despite the fact that’s good kraber user can kill you before you even know they exist by just shooting by your toe. I’m partial to the slow him down, make his shot a projectile angle, but something does have to change simply because he isn’t fun. But something does have to change. He should either be fun to fight, or he should have to essentially cripple yourself for the chance to kill someone in a single shot. Even something minor like making every shot a tracer, having his scope be like the halo ones where you can see the shine before he hits you, something.
Proposed solution to the sniper rifle: - Small dot that appears ON YOUR GUN while scoping in so you a sniper is detected easier - Whenever a sniper's crosshairs is close to your head, you get a little effect on your screen like when someone poimts a laser dot at your eye, this way one can know if the sniper is about to shoot you or not - Bullet has a very small tracer round, not like the Machina but like a pistol shot - Distinct sound when a sniper rifle shot misses, like a "woosh" flying right past your ear
2 things: pyros skill ceiling doesn't exist. it's always a noob class no matter how you turn it. no skill. 2nd thing is. god FUCK i'm glad valve doesn't give no single fuck about their community and that they just do what they think is good for the game, you know.. bc they are the game DESIGNERS aand not some sweaty dog who cries about getting raandom critted. Random crits are good. Sniper is balanced. Huntsman is infinitely worse to play against. if you object you have no idea about proper gamedesign.
Battlefield did snipers pretty fairly by adding a distinct bullet crackle when a shot passes by you. Even HL1 & 2's sniper enemies have some good cues to give you something to fight with
The huntsman isn’t as hated because it’s a slight annoyance. You walk around a corner, die to the huntsman, and go on with your day. The huntsman can’t lock down the hallway cuz it’s hard to aim and has a draw speed. Literally if you weren’t by yourself the huntsman is probably dead. He got one random kill, whatever. Snipers stand 500 feet farther away, look over the entire control point, and he doesn’t just get taken care of because he’s standing so far away. I hate sniper more, but the huntsman is annoying. But it doesn’t work that well, you get some kills and die as you get pushed. It sucks, it’s dumb, requires no skill, and instantly kills you. The sniper is hated because it actually works. Snipers can and will shut down every important part of the map by themselves from a mile away, and there’s nothing you can do about it besides switch class and target him or just not play the objective to deal with him. On maps like upward, you actually can’t do that lol. The huntsman will die, it’s a dumb weapon. But people just ignore it. It’s a meme weapon. Also demo and sniper are different because demo inherently has counter play because he’s standing not 500 feet away. Sticky bombs mean the demo literally can’t defend himself with it form a certain point, and demo is a front line power class, and pills are hard to hit. Sniper stands from a distance so he cant just be shot or fought has extremely limited counter play, that requires all your time to focus him to get rid of him. Demoman can be killed by just shooting him, he’s in shooting range. Demo doesn’t have hyper specific counters. He’s got his counters, but he’s also on the frontlines and can literally just be shot. The sniper has his counters, and in order to be killed he pretty much has to be killed by his counters by being targeted specifically. He has to be flanked by a scout or soldier or spy, or shot by a sniper. If you’re not doing those things, you’re completely incapable of killing the sniper. Add Ontop of that, that the sniper has the ability to reliably shut down those counters with enough skills means that depending on the skill of the sniper, it feels like you *actually* can’t do anything about it. Rocket jumping flank to surprise the sniper? Instant death cuz not at full hp. Playing scout? Instant death if they’re good enough. Spy? He’s spy. The only one that doesn’t have this issue is, surprise surprise, the enemy sniper. The demo on the other hand, doesn’t have this issue because everyone “soft counters” him because he’s a fragile mostly immobile (outside of sticky jumping, something you don’t really do as a mid shootout mobility tool lol) power class within shooting distance of everyone else, or Atleast within rushdown distance cuz he’s so slow. He also has a small clip. So him having a weapon to defend himself from the range he’s literally incapable of hitting the enemy at otherwise is fine, especially considering his reload speed and clip size. Sniper avoids counter play by both being given the opportunity to kill his counters instantly, and by literally just avoiding the fight by being 50 feet away. Demoman literally can’t just avoid the fight, he’s right there. You’re either a sniper counter or you’re dead. And if you’re a sniper counter, you’re sometimes dead
He can lock down the hallways with it. If you’ve ever played Scout with a huntsman Sniper on the enemy team, then you’ll know it’s utter BS sometimes what they can get away with.
@@JeffarryLounder yeah, they can get significantly buffed by hallways, but I would say it’s locked down. If there’s more than one person with you the huntsman user probably dies before he can fire off another shot. It’s not really lockdown, just obnoxious if you run into one I’d say. I rarely, if ever, have an actual issue with huntsman snipers. Sometimes they kill me, but most of the time they end up dying if you’re not flanking by yourself.
15:30 projectile weapons definitely do not inherently take more skill to use, as you can play soldier with a lobotomy and a blindfold and still topscore.
I thought the huntsman hit box was a meme until it happened to me as a battle engineer. I pushed a point on control watch, as an arrow went past me and made a sound hitting the wall behind me, and then 1 second later im headshot by an arrow.
If every rifle had a Machina trail I feel like the Huntsman would still be seen as just that janky fun side option, because no matter what, close range headshots will happen and you'll never really have any choice in the matter, but at least at LONG range, you get some amount of knowledge that the sniper missed and you have a chance now, rather than praying you can notice the pixel 5 miles away from you is in reload animation
I feel like a lot of people completely disregard that you can "dodge" sniper by having good movement and juking yourself and that's why people think he's the most overpowered thing ever and this is because exactly what you said in the video that there's not really feedback when you successfully dodge a sniper. So based on this video here's a few balance ideas that will never happen because valve doesn't update this game. 1. Bullet whizzes for near misses with a sniper rifle, if a sniper attempted to shoot you and missed by a certain amount then play a very audible bullet whiz sound effect for the player, not only giving feedback on successfully avoiding a headshot, but also alerting a player to the presence of a sniper they may not have known about. 2. Louder sniper shots. Make sniper shots generally louder and easier to hear for enemy players so they know when one is in play and may even be able to figure out generally where he is at, maybe a nice reverb effect. 3. Sniper scope glint, when sniper is scoped a glint shines from his scope which gets brighter as he charges, give sniper just a bit more readability, especially when it comes to knowing how charged an enemy sniper is. A fun aside to this would be a balance change to the Heatmaker to give it more of an identity by making all these new features a bit more subtle when using that rifle, make it a stealth rifle fitting with it's suppressed nature then maybe nerf it's quickscope damage or something like that.
Looking back a couple years to my BF3 days, I feel like the sniper rifles there were balanced decently. There is scope glint as soon as you look through the scope, to get rid of it you either have to go out of ads or look into a completely different direction, losing sight of all possible targets. The game has ballistics, but the maps are much larger. Longer travel times and more bullet drop. .A decent nerf to sniping. One thing I would add to your list is giving sniper recoil. If the crosshair jumps and takes a bit to recenter, spamming accurate shots is much harder.
I know I'm definitely in the minority but i actually *do* hold both examples at the end in equal regard. They are both extremely unfun to be on the receiving end of, and in my opinion shouldn't be in a game with such a large casual following due to the fun factor being down the drain. That's my main issue with sniper in the first place. The class isn't unbalanced, it's unfun to fight. Fix that first, games aren't supposed to be perfectly balanced anyway, there'd be no winners if that were true. I just want there to be some interesting way to beat it other than "don't get hit, don't peek lol".
Just lower uncharged headshot damage to 90 and sniper becomes much more fun to play against. He can still get a two hit kill with one hs and on bodyshot on a light class, but he also now has to be much more careful and deliberate with his sightlines and pick decisions. Also can't shut down a whole server.
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I know I’m beating a dead horse, but my theory as to why people think Sniper is op is that TF2, by design, is a game about reading what your opponent is doing, & then responding to that. The Sniper rifles kinda don’t have that, since the intended “counter play” is that you avoid the sniper sight line & you move on with your life. That feels bad. The Huntsman is just is a “seemingly” more avoidable weapon to Sniper haters (myself included)
Lets see...
highest DPS, instant one-shot at any range, no weaknesses, no counterplay, perfect synergies.
Why indeed people think sniper is OP?
@@skipperg4436 In what world is 150 damage every 1.7 seconds the highest DPS in the game? Every other class has higher potential damage on their primary, even SPY. Sniper only has a faster TTK on lower HP classes, namely supportive ones _he's supposed to be good picking_.
@@skipperg4436 "no counterplay" you're an idiot.
@@ShakerSilverThe world were tf2 is a game about mid-close range for literally every class but sniper.
@@ShakerSilver in the World of TF2 Sniper is able to put the highest DPS of all classes.
Spy in order to do damage need to stand directly behind its target and since he can't teleport right next to back of its next target he is incapable of dealing high DPS.
Another reason people might feel the huntsman is more balanced is it is generally used in much closer range fights. While it still has all of the same issues to play against as the rifle up close, it’s not as easy to kill people entirely outside of their functional engagement distances. People might be willing to accept the insta deaths if they are at least capable of consistently dealing more than chip damage to the sniper. (Goes a bit out the window with corner peeking obv. but just another observation)
TBH it has more different issues then sniper rifles.
Way more forgiving hitbox and ability to spam and pray from even more safety then with a rifle.
Wrote basically that in the comments of the shiv episode, because the huntsman was briefly brought up there (and so arguments ensued in the comments). A huntsman sniper, intead of being on the other side of the map where you can’t do anything about him, will be in the backline of the team - further than most classes but still somewhere where you can react and potentially threaten him. Also even when travel time is short, having it be there still means that “moving unpredictably” is much more practical. So rifle snipers are just something that instakills you for existing on 80% of the map, while huntsman snipers are at a range where you can actually fight and interact with them, so they feel like an actual part of the game.
Just here to complain about how this guy made a video with the festive huntsman, a glitched weapon that has a hitbox 3 times larger than the regular huntsman.
if you know the right angles to spam it can be pretty funny but no worse than just getting sniped anyways@square3356
i personaly find long range makes juking very effective(against me at least) because of how small the bullet is, how small your head is, plus that i have to wait several seconds to try again.
Its not because of the skill or anything for the sniper, its the ability to counter it that is why the huntsman is preferred, its much less annoying to be kill at close range than across the map and the huntsman forcing the closer range is why its well received
At the same time there's even less counterplay against a Huntsman at times.
Again, it's had Lucksman as it's nickname for a while now.
You can spam it around corners without issues and often get random kills on players who had no way to see you or even damage you with chip damage.
That doesn't explain why people say sniper shouldn't be able to headshot at close range lmao
@@simplysmiley4670 That's the same situation as rocket and sticky spam, though, and reasonable counterplay has been developed for those situations
@@TheFoolishSamurai Most rockets don't instakill you though. Maybe you're at 25 health suddenly, but you at least get a small window to do something instead of staring at a killcam.
@@DaisiesTC Because you spawn at long range against a sniper, where you can't kill him at all. No matter how good you are at any other class, you can't kill him at his effective range. In order to close the distance, you need to avoid/fight him as well as go into enemy-controlled territory and avoid/fight the whole rest of his team. So the fact that he can insta kill you at your effective range at all can seem ridiculous; he is already unkillable at his effective range, which is the range that you can ONLY be at in 90% of the time, why not the same on the other end of the spectrum
Personally i really liked shounic's idea of giving sniper a big ass stupid laser on his face so you can know where hes aiming at all times
ngl, i did react when i saw "giving sniper a big ass"
I also liked his idea of just completely removing sniper
The thing is though that the best snipers don't scope in for long and tend to go for quickscopes anyway. I don't think this change would do much. If anything the rifles should be tweaked to incentivize longer hard-scopes and more methodical play.
@@ethandavis7310 I mean if you watched the video im talking about you would know thats just false. The laser isnt for being scoped in. Its on all the time
@@SerbianKnifeFightand furthermore, just an instant of having the laser is enough to triangulate where it came from. That’s fatal to a sniper with bad reaction time
As a Pyro main, fighting huntsman snipers is realy fun. If you miss your airblast and die beacause of it its your fault and you're trash,but if you time if correctly you're a god amongst men.
oh ye, the counter class also has a counter to huntsman unlike regular sniper. And for once can gross the goddamn sightline because u can not only more easily dodge it at larger distances but also sometimes react to it and counterplay it back at someone (or just away from yourself)
"I mean to do that"
_--Pyro main after air-blasting a huntsman arrow into an invisible Spy on the other side of the map_
@@davidhong1934 getting random spy checks is always hilarious
@@aidenkelly9641for me it's just sad...for obvious reasons
TRUE I remember reflecting my first huntsman arrow on purpose and it felt EXTREMELY satisfying and dopamine inducing
I wonder what it would be like if the sniper rifles had that “woosh” wind effect that happens when you dodge an arrow if you barely dodge a shot fired by the enemy sniper using the other weapons and you see a much more prominent bullet hole on where the sniper fired. There could be a fun mechanic where each gun has its own wind sound effect, like the Sydney Sleeper having a piss stream sound or the machina had a sort of energy buzz to its wind effect along with its laser trail. Lots of cool things to be done in that avenue for sure and could give feedback that you dodged a shot from anything other than the bows
what if the dot itself also generated a sound, that might actually be interesting. Also would turn a "oh im dead i guess" into "oh god a sniper's targeting me"
I would love that kind of suppressive fire noise stuff.
@@xanious3759actually not a terrible idea. Reveals that a sniper is aiming at you but not from where and gives you very limited time to avoid dying
@@xanious3759that’s literally what I’ve been thinking.
I was actually thinking the same thing.
Also yeah, hearing a piss sound when you dodge a Sydney Sleeper dart would make me use if even more.
It's news to me that The Huntsman is universally considered to be more fair than the rifles now. As far back as I can remember, the weapon has been memed to death for being cheap and annoying. Its one of the only unlocks in the entire game that is just as known by its derogatory nickname as its actual name. Baffles me that anyone is suddenly giving it a free pass now that the Sniper Rifle has been a focus of discussion. Happens a lot with TF2 players. "Turns out we were wrong about that thing we all complained about because this other thing is the hotter topic now."
It's a combination of the bots suddenly making people realise how broken the sniper rifles are and the aforementioned thing you brought up.
It's just the bots.
that's because generally speaking the huntsman is at it's best when it's at a range that also puts you in the same risk as every other class.
Lucksman in the end is luck assisting you with funny bullshit headshots, but you can still be killed and outmaneuvered by a skilled player because the huntsman arrow is a *projectile*
If I were to fight against a full 12 team of aimbot snipers, I would be obliterated after I step out of spawn because hitscan and barely readable laser dots of the sniper don't fucking help me know where the sniper is.
Whereas if I fought against a full 12 team of aimbot huntsman snipers, I would be able to leave spawn and get to the middle before I get pincushioned, because the huntsman requires more from the sniper beyond aiming at the head.
If you're wondering why we're giving the huntsman a free pass, then that just makes you a boomer for not immediately figuring it out
If the sniper rifle in the hands of a sniper with 10,000 hours in the game did not exist, the huntsman *might* be a discussion (after random crits were dealt with).
But compared to the first thing I said, the huntsman isn't even on the same playing field.
Idk I've always hated snipers especially ones using sniper rifles. Huntsman feels a bit more telegraphed for me to get mad tbh
i think a reason why people have changed their minds so much on sniper is probably due to a change in culture. back in the day, sniping was seen as a fairly skillful and flashy thing to pull off, what with the advent of many quickscoping or sniper montages in general around the 2010's, with games like cod really helping to boost that.
now tho, sniping i think has fallen off a lot, with the age of montages kind of dying off and a huge rise in esports thanks to games like cs:go or siege, with i think that spiking a much higher interest and discussion of balance, strategy, etc, compared to just sorta showing off. a lot of gaming communities now kinda loathe sniping in almost every game, and generally perfer other weapon types they deem more fun or skillful.
i think there's many factors to this, especially in tf2, but i just think personally it just has to do with that culture change i mentioned, along with just more people of all types playing video games in general.
You are absolutely correct. The awe accorded to pure mechanical skill (ie head clicking, tracking) has decreased significantly over the years, while that accorded to other skills (eg game sense, positioning, communication, teamwork, strategy) has increased. This is just part of gaming maturing as a hobby. When people become more interested in the game as a whole, as opposed to cookie clicker skillshots, it's entirely to be expected that views on things will change with it.
No, people don't like sniper because he doesn't belong in multiplayer multi-class/hero shooters.
The very concept of sniping alone is unfair. It's not fair to not be able to kill someone cause they're too far away but the enemy can kill you no issue no matter how far you are. There's not a single thing about sniping that's fair... and that's *by design*. Snipers are SUPPOSED to be unfair.
Sniping is derived from real sniping, from real wars, that don't play by rules or fairness. It's all about having a range and visibility advantage. Snipers are supposed to take out their enemies from extremely far away without them knowing they're there. Sniping was NEVER about counter-combat.
Putting snipers in shooters is just a product of developers putting any and all shooting mechanics from real war into video games just because they exist.
Games are about fairness, both parties having equal advantage over each other, but war isn't about fairness, it's about gaining advantage. Sniper is just a very extreme example of an advantage in war, and putting it in multiplayer shooters focusing on fairness doesn't work.
Sniper just doesn't belong in any shooters involving multiple other people that aren't also snipers.
@@johnnycakemusic4069
You are correct to say sniping fundamentally has no place in competitive PVP shooters of this sort; but the OP is talking about why attitudes have changed. People were fine with snipers back in the day, despite it being terrible game design, because of the reasons listed by OP. People were not keenly aware of the (correct) bad game design argument.
@johnnycakemusic4069 *looks at AWP and scout in CS
Are you really sure about that?
sniping in video games i think is something worth talking about, but i think it comes down more to fun factor rather than balance/fairness.
i personally don't mind sniping as much as others, but i do understand where people are coming from and where some issues lay. discussing sniper has just sorta become a bloated topic with everyone having their own thoughts and feelings on it. it's good people are talking about this, but i think there's a lot more personal bias than people would admit. it's fine to dislike things and to even bring up valid points to explain as such, but i think a lot of people have the wrong idea on what exactly is the problem. it's just that sometimes fun factor and balance overlap and kinda make things all murky.
i just wanna bring up other topics that people haven't mentioned yet since i think they're interesting to talk and think about.
The "ease" of the huntsman is overstated by many in the community.
The vast majority of your shots are typically misses with it; plus it requires a fair bit of leading and positioning.
I think it's just the more forgiving Headshot hitbox that some people are complaining about.
As someone who can't play TF2 because my Macbook doesn't support 32-bit apps, but also who watches a lot of TF2 stuff, I believe the Huntsman is much more well-thought-out than people give it credit for.
Lower damage output so a bodyshot can't OHKO a Light class, Arcing Projectile so it’s much less effective at long range, and much less ammo so people can't spam the arrows as much, but also much faster charge time so you don't have to commit as much, and a much more forgiving Headshot hitbox because projectiles are more difficult to land than Hitscans, especially if they arc.
the vast majority of your shots of any gun are misses, and standing still spamming a choke isnt leading or positioning
The vast majority of your shots with a rifle are typically misses.
@@jayes13 And that's why the Huntsman has about half the ammo of the Stock Sniper Rifle
You're close to correctly using a semicolon! Semicolons separate two independent clauses. Your comment appears to have independent;dependent given you're using "plus" as a conjunction. In order to fix, remove the "plus" and the semicolon works well!
I’m just gonna say this right now: The Huntsman not only feels more satisfying and SIGNIFICANTLY more fun to use than the Sniper Rifle, but I have had quite a few instances where my enemies have genuinely been able to avoid being hit by my arrow because they were able to see it coming.
Not only that, but the hidden downside of having your shot be wildly inaccurate if you charge for too long forces the sniper to be more active and proactive instead of passive and reactive, meaning more often than not the sniper will actually be within killing distance of everyone else. It also does less damage overall, so you can’t just go for lazy body shots with it either.
eh you can definitely still go for lazy body shots if you pair it with the SMG. Can kill someone significantly more quickly with an arrow bodyshot+SMG than with 2 rifle body shots.
@@DaisiesTC How is that different than getting two rockets from soldier though? Easy to hit too, have even higher DPS and no bs in chat about that.
@@JupixCZ I'm just saying the reduced body shot damage isn't really that much of a downside of the huntsman, it'd be completely broken without the reduced damage.
I second this. Though you did get your terms mixed up. It should be "active and proactive instead of passive and reactive".
That's being discount scout, not being equivalent to oneshotting everyone from 10 miles away in a movement shooter close combat game @@DaisiesTC
12:00 one immediately counter argument I can think of for the “sniper vs demo” situation is that although demo is good at mid range like sniper,he is ultimately a projectile class and is much weaker at long range(unlike sniper who has infinite range),which justifies why he can have the ability to fight back even at close range,while sniper is already good at mid-long range,so should not by any means have strong close range combat option to rely on(and no,the smg is not a strong option)
Moreover, unlike sniper,demoman has the issue of self damage dealt by his own grenades,which quite often causes demo suicides during a scout/engi close range encounter,whereas quick scoping does not have such issues due to it being hitscan
Right, exactly. In addition, while scout does counter both demo and sniper, going after a sniper as scout takes way more time and commitment. A demo is at the front lines. You can fight him right there. A sniper has to be chased across the map. You have to abandon your team just so you can try to go get him.
Makes me wonder if all rifles had small window of time where they can't headshot at all then would that be a bit more fair to play around and deal with? Meaning at most a Sniper might do somewhere around 50 to 60 damage to whoever got up close. (Though the excess of ammo for all rifles is still bit of a problem... except for the Sleeper in my opinion.)
For the record, I feel like the Classic operates best for Sniper in making his supposed close range weakness actually a problem for him to deal with where you'll either hope your team can protect you or equip the Jarate with the Bushwhacker to deal with anyone who does get close (which that has its own problem because there's only one class that can consistently get close to a Sniper with little danger to themselves if they're smart about how they do that but requires the Sniper to be occupied to not get instantly killed).
This is why I hate the bushwaka jartae combo it allows him to 1 hit like 7/9 classes it's stupid
This is why I hate the bushwaka jartae combo it allows him to 1 hit like 7/9 classes it's stupid
Not only that last part, but unless the scout is already damaged, the demo needs two shots on the scout, where the sniper only needs one. Even with the loose cannon you may have to worry about charging it where the sniper can just immediately go for the shot
Sniper is one of my least played classes. I randomly tried out the Huntsman the other day and i enjoyed it way more than the typical gunplay. Its also just super satisfying and super rewarding to play, in my opinion.
Not sure how rewarding it is when the game is doing half the aiming with it snapping to heads.
@@ShakerSilverarcher gaming
@@ShakerSilverarcher gaming
@@ShakerSilverFaster charge time, and the Projectile makes it at least feel like you're aiming.
Also, hitboxes that don't quite match the visuals are quite satisfying to some when they're in their favor. Talk to any Bullet Hell enthusiast for more info.
@@ShakerSilverarcher gaming
I think a big reason for the shift in view on good snipers is that back before there was a bigger stream of new players so a good sniper was a rare sight but now it feels almost every game gets bogged down by some sweaty 3000 hour sniper main and it can get very frustrating
I think giving all sniper rifles the machina tracer would do a LOT to make it feel like you're doing more, it'd let you know that the enemy missed making it feel like you were actually doing something when you dodge. It would also tell you more about the snipers position, giving you more counterplay and making the interaction more... well more of an interaction rather than just a sudden random death from your perspective
I could see that, as someone who plays sniper most people don't even realize you're shooting at them until they're hit. Causing them to only recognize if they die rather than how many shots it took to properly track someone's movements and land a hit
there's no counterplay to sniper
even if everyone could see his exact position at all times, it'd still just be going where you need to go and instantly dying from across the map
This game is literally 16 years old, anyone should know common sniping spots
@@onemoreoiw4397ever heard of new players?
@@louctendo1321 no
i feel like the entire reason the huntsman didnt get hate is because ON PAPER its slightly telegraphed, compared to anything except the machina/ heatmaker when focus is on. so people can think" i should've dodged that" instead of being angry. dosent really apply to close range quickscopes but i mean...is it weird for me that people complain about close range headshots being a thing, i mean, there's so many close range instakill options out there
I think the issue with close range headshots is that it’s on a class that’s supposed to be weaker at close range
The problem with close range headshots/quickshots is that they shouldn't even be allowed to happen (at least in my opinion), Sniper is already strong as is with him being a long range class
@@samtricks1966 True, though close-range headshots are difficult to pull off, so they don't happen super often, unless you're dealing with an extremely skilled player, someone using the Huntsman with its much more forgiving Headshot hitbox, or a bot.
@@samtricks1966 Why does everyone keep parroting this weak ass point as if its something every sniper can do? As scout just ADAD in close range of the sniper, he misses ONCE and he is guaranteed dead.
Snipers only surefire close range defense is Jarate+Bushwacka. Pulling off a close range quickscope on a game where every other class is movement based is hard.
@@OhCrapI_He they are not difficult to pull off and they happen very, very often when you play against competent player.
Like somebody who spend at lest several hundreds of hours in the game.
There are plenty of those around.
By the way you can just try doing in on tr_walkway.
When you realize that real people don't move that much different from bots with randomized movement you will see why Sniper is OP as f-k.
In relation to feedback, the huntsman also has a distinct charge up animation (and punishes over-charging the weapon) which tells you pretty much when they're going to fire. I find this especially helpful when playing Pyro, so I can go for some cheeky reflects.
The difference is that despite the huntsmen having its faults, you have the feed back to adjust your fighting style acoordingly, which regardless of how fair it is, atleast you get engage the sniper trying to tag you to a wall
Here's a hot take I'll die by:
Hitscan aim on kb+mouse is too common a skill these days to be rewarded as much as it is. You should not get to send a gamer to the spawn room just because you can keep your mouse on their model or click when your crosshair crossed their model.
So many people have so much hitscan skill these days, and hence gamesense and projectile aim (which is weapon specific) needs to be significantly rewarded in comparison.
If the playerbase is too skilled at a certain form of skill expression, the reward needs to be toned down, lest the game becomes skewed to favour it and smother the other kinds.
This is only a problem because people have been training this easily transferable skill for decades.
Good old times of rockets in UT and sniping in BF3 and Planetside.
I like playing TF2 on the xbox and this is partially why - the playing field feels MUCH more level because everyone's using controllers to play and aim. Classes like Sniper, Soldier and Scout, whilst still potentially very strong in their roles, don't feel quite so dominating to engage as other classes.
Too be honest I just play way too many games with projectiles so my hit-scan aim is...bad
The game btw are
PvZ garden warfare
Pixel gun 3d (May u r.i.p)
BF4 (it doesn't use hit-scan...your bullet's are actually projectiles)
@@HappyBeezerStudios funny you say that since ut99's sniper makes tf2 sniper look pathetic in comparison, its like being an infinite range scout that can headshot lmao
the arena shooter design of UT does help balance sniper a lot though
Good point. Was thinking the same when the video said about in the past it was such a prestigious thing due to its skill scarcity to pull up the same nowadays. The playerbase evolves so does newcomers. Since the first dude to propose wasd for doom (as a mark of even more popularity of such in pcs) till today, fps gamers have been living with quick aim, reflexes and precision.
But what i think most have kinda lost is the desire to just turn on the game to have fun.
Sniper is one of my least played classes. Mostly cause I find it boring to click on someone’s head and don’t find it too rewarding. Movement+fun kills is way more interesting than sitting/hopping around clicking on a head.
I more recently started using the air strike. Getting sick rocket jumps and then landing four rockets on a poor medic feels so good.
I spent way too long venting about the air strike and then remembered where I was.
Well, it's simple and you said it yourself, it's the feedback against the huntsman and the rest of the weapons you can see or hear the weapons being fired so if it hits you or kills you, you say: I should have dodged that. Add to that the rifle is a long-distance hitscan in a short-medium distance game and the hustman sniper is usually together with his companions instead of being in a corner in the spawn
I think this "debate" was solved pretty definitively by Overwatch, a lot of things wrong with sniper can also be found in Overwatch's Widowmaker, and it boils down to similar problems.
1) Instakill hitscan vs instakill projectile.
In Overwatch, Hanzo fulfills the "Instakill projectile" niche while Widowmaker fulfills the "Instakill hitscan" niche. Now, this is very, very anecdotal, but (post Hanzo losing scatter arrow), I've seen that in general, when Widowmaker is overpowered people HATE it, and when Hanzo is overpowered, people get a bit uppity but not really like, crazy upset. Even though, as you pointed out, being able to spam projectiles can be used to hide behind corners, which 2 abilities in Hanzo's kit even encourage.
I think part of it, is that projectiles are, plain and simply, inherently more 'fair'. In both games. In tf2, you have things that you can use immediately, on reaction to prevent a projectile from wrecking your day, you have ubercharge (if charged), airblast, and even arguably the short circuit. You can also dodge at long ranges, see it coming beforehand (and therefore know that you're gonna get fucked) and it gives a lot more feedback. You aren't guaranteed to have the options that completely remove the need to dodge, but the fact that you CAN dodge is a benefit, whereas hitscan is absurdly difficult to properly 'dodge' because if a player can read your movement, you'll die no matter what.
2) What is, "easy" in an FPS game
In Overwatch, Widowmaker is generally considered to be a very easy character, despite the fact that they are the most aim-intensive in the game. A lot of this stems from one, simple fact: In order to be good at an instakill, hitscan sniper, you only need to be good at ONE thing, aiming. This logic I feel can be applied to tf2 as well, which is why the ""historical revisionism"" of sniper being easy isn't entirely unfounded. Being good at sniper requires that you are good at aiming, that's it. Target priority doesn't matter because getting even a single pick is great, positioning rarely matters because you just have to fuck off to a corner of the map, movement only matters coming out of spawn and if you need to rotate as sniper you're probably already doing something wrong. All you have to do is find somewhere to stand, and aim. Aim for the rest of the match. This is why in Overwatch and sometimes in Tf2 you'll get people who are absolutely incredible on Widowmaker/Sniper but once they switch to a different class, a lot of their non-mechanical skills falter.
Meanwhile, while you can still certainly perform amazingly with the huntsman/as Hanzo with pure aim ability, it's a LOT easier to call out some of the worse habits when you're encouraged to play closer to the field/move at ALL. Even the brief movements of jiggle peeking a corner will require using some additional skills to do it effectively.
3) Quickscopes vs. Arrow Flicks
Personally I'd trade a class being more difficult to fight in close quarters over them being able to instantly kill me with no reaction from across the entire map at no risk and without moving. Regardless, I think this is just one of those 'it's not what they USED to be' things. If the huntsman was ALWAYS sniper's default, people would just respect that they're incredibly deadly in close range because of how easy it is to land a projectile against a character taking up half your screen. However, because the huntsman ISN'T, it suddenly feels like introducing a crazy new strength to the sniper, when in reality you're exchanging that strength for crippling their long-range power. Again, this is seen in Overwatch, where Hanzo is seen as more difficult to dive than widowmaker because of them having more mobility while shooting, the likelihood of you taking damage against them, and the HUGE potential damage they can do when a single shot lands against you.
TL;DR: Playing other games with similar concepts can help you understand these concepts deeper
I feel like it’s unfair to compare the attitude on sniper back in the day to the attitude today, because you haven’t taken into account the playerbase’s overall rise of skill level overtime. Objectively speaking(not to pull a Zesty or anything), facing snipers is on average more threatening than it used to be because they’re more skilled. Hence a big reason why public opinion has shifted so much
honestly its not just playtime, its overall perception of snipers in games in general. Sniper's not even fucking remotely *close* to being overpowered, its just that not everyone else has grinded UT99 for hundreds of hours to see what a truely broken sniper looks like (although i don't mind ut99 sniper and the faster movement and arena shooter/power weapon structure helps balance it a lot), and counter strike basically is sight-line the game, so snipers being strong doesn't even feel bad in that context. Snipers being stupidly strong as a reward for good aim was just kinda the norm.
Its also mostly kinda just that sniper almost feels like he's in the wrong game sometimes, since the feedback from sniper is so different from fighting every other class.
Is it though? I think TF2 is already old enough that the game growing even older won't really make the playerbase better on average. New players come, old players quit, and some others just happy enough with their skill level and don't consciously train to get better.
@@xanious3759Yeah. He isn’t really overpowered, it’s just his purpose is fundamentally flawed in tf2.
@@xanious3759that's just wrong, sniper is a broken class, at top levels of play, being op at one skill level is still op
No, that works both ways, plus it isnt the case. That has to be the weakest argument against sniper that ive read in this comment section.
Nah, man. The main reason a Huntsman isn't as good or frustrating as the Rifle is because it's a midrange weapon as opposed to a gun with infinite range. The act of simply not being behind your entire team, mostly unseen, already makes it a much fairer option to fight against. People nowadays are simply becoming more aware of just how bullshit the concept of a sniper in a shooter is as game design evolves. Nothing but a relic of what people thought being good at an FPS was way back when.
Would you say that an infinite range gun is fine if used on a map that doesn't have comical sightlines? The infinite range really is a problem on some maps like upward first and badwater in general but I don't think the same problem exists on maps like junction (which is a terrible map but is an easy example).
exactly, its much harder to land huntsman (head)shots on long to very long ranges, most huntsman combat is in ranges where other classes have a chance to deal damage
@@pulseworks1663 Kind of. Obviously, the best solution would be to not let sniper stay so far away that they cannot be effectively be countered by anything other than another sniper. Although even without big sight lines, you got places like Upward last where they can still safely click on heads.
@@pulseworks1663 sniper is except from global design philosophy in tf2, which is that all weapons, even sentries and stickies, deal more damage closer you are to the target.
So just add damage fall-off to the sniper rifle. It worked for ambassador. A full 150 headshot damage reserved only for before ~1500 hu, the range where the ambassador fall-off ends.
@@benshulz4179 Except for, you know, the crusader's crossbow, grenade pipes and anything that is boosted with crits/mini-crits. But those are completely fine to do the same or more damage at longer ranges.
The Huntsman is way more fun to use by design. That's probably why I'm ok with Huntsman Snipers, just because I always have an absolutely miserable, boring time playing ordinary sniper no matter how well I'm doing.
Psychologically it feels like I was actually *outplayed* by a *player* when I die to a huntsman... whereas when I get headshot across the map by a sniper, it often feels like my opponent may as well be a bot, just standing still at the other side of the map and clicking every once in a while.
That...and the instinct anxiety, fear, and thankfulness of being grazed by an arrow
Compared to not knowing if someone even shooting at you
i disagree about spy isn't fun to fight, because i can at least think "oh, i need to look at my back more often", also i think that spy is annoying because he probably have thousands hours, or he stray up die after the backstab what is satisfying, and you can kill him in the next life if you pay attention, sniper?, how you can kill him?, and he don't get punished for an risk kill, because the risk kill he is still 100 meters of the point
spy just doesnt give off the "oh well ig im not going that way anymore" vibe. Which is enough to make it fine
Agreed. Mind you, I find certain classes annoying, like spy and scout, but I at least understand that I died because I failed to react.
Sniper? React to what? There he is, over there, I see him, but I can’t do anything about it.
I’ve only ever been mad at spies when they’re face-stab gods. Like, seriously, it’s idiotic that certain spies can essentially jam themselves in my face, and unless my cursor is dead even with them at every second, they’ll manage a backstab. Thankfully, even in that scenario, getting some distance will allow you to counter it. With sniper, you’ve kinda gotta hope there’s a flank that isn’t crawling with the entirety of his team, which is rare, or you’re just not getting past him. Imagine you’ve got the enemy team on the ropes in payload, but oops, behind all of them is a guy who can instantly kill you 5x faster than it takes for you to reach him in impeded, let alone slogging through his entire team. Maybe you can sticky jump and try to take him out as Demo with your primary, or on random crit servers, your frying pan(I don’t care what Valve says, I don’t believe them for a second that every melee has the same crit chance. The pan is mightier than the sword due to crits). Better hope he doesn’t see you coming… and better hope he doesn’t have his jarate/bushwacka combo ready… and don’t assume you can pull that a second time on anyone but a noob.
I honestly think the amount of fun something feels to play against is the most important part about sniper's design right now. Generally I am of the opinion his balance isn't all that off. He could for sure use some tweaking, and I'm not sure what those tweaks should be, but 95% of the time I find sniper pretty unproblematic; the reason the huntsman is so popular isn't because it's more balanced, it's just more fun to play against since you have some actual feedback about what the sniper is doing in a way you don't get as much with normal sniper. Like you said, it's much more satisfying to outplay a huntsman sniper since you know much more clearly that you made him flub his shot with unusual movement or tech, and that's much more satisfying. I think Dane did a hot takes video recently where he talks about sniper and in it he talks about how it feels like the sniper has relatively little direct defensive interaction you can take against him that feels meaningful aside from just.. avoiding his sightline. I think that opinion comes from the fact that you never know what the sniper's doing at those ranges, and the counterplay you do have has absolutely no feedback on how effective or close the encounter was. For all you know, the sniper could have been asleep at the keyboard and suddenly woke up to fire off a random shot in your vague direction, and that kind of ambiguity in feedback feels not great. The huntsman mostly resolves this so people are more willing to look kindly upon it. If all his rifles had feedback similar to the huntsman from the outset, I think this whole sniper balance discussion would be a lot less prevalent because people are going to have positive and fun interactions with sniper more often as a result of the feedback.
honestly valve should add some whizzle sound like the huntsman arrows have when missing u just slightly to rifles. It's just such an epic sound
But at the same time Huntsman has enough jank to itself to feel even more BS then rifles half the time. Hell, huntsman allows the Sniper to put himself in even less risk and, again, has a way more forgiving hitbox that often times feels, again, even more BS then rifles do.
@@simplysmiley4670 even less risk? But he has to be closer, not further from the enemies?
@@simplysmiley4670 The point is that while Huntsman is nearly as or more powerful than the Rifles in some situations, you at least get feedback on what you did wrong. You can roughly see where he is aiming, your weapons do decent damage at those ranges, you can dodge to a certain extent. With rifles, especially at very long ranges, you either randomly die or nothing happens. With all the flash of projectiles and other enemy players taking up your screen, figuring out where the sniper is in time to do something about it, is vague.
It's not just more fun to play against, it's also more fun to play with.
Rifle gameplay often boils down to standing on a point and tracking targets. There is no movement, no turns, no dance of death with the enemy. And tracking targets is something you have to do with basically all other classes as well.
I agree that, as a blanket change, Sniper having less ammo on all of his primaries (except maybe Sydney?) ought have reduced ammo. Forcing sniper to play around sources of ammo would, among many other things, reduce uptime on watching sightlines, alleviating some of the intense incomparable pressure Sniper can place from afar. Behaviorally, Snipers would also be more likely to be hanging around ammo spawns and Engie dispensers, potentially adding risk/reward to positioning, and making ambush classes (scout, spy) more easily identify ways to pick them off.
I think one of the main issues with sniper is it's mostly a game feel issue and not really a balance issue... If you'd look at Project sonic 06, a fan remaster of the disaster Sonic 06, most of what the remaster actually does is just fix bugs and jank and improve the game feel. That's it, and i feel like the discussion with sniper should be a lot closer to that than balance as is. It still sucks to be fully charged body shot by jose.gonzalez.2011 from across the map with the only warning being his sniper dot you couldnt easily see. It's a discussion that's a lot more complex than people give it credit for. Great couple of videos you've posted on this subject so far fish!
It also has to do with risk involved, with a sticky trap the demoman at least has to be where the trap is at some point, a spy has to be right behind you to stab you and is put in a (way too) risky position afterwards, non-random crits are usually earned, and at least when they aren't with the phlog for example, the pyro has to be within rocket juggling distance to flame you down
@@sock4118 Standing absolutely still in this game is a death sentence, which is something sniper needs to do to charge a body shot and doesnt have the resistances nor the HP pool to be aggressive. If his frontline is gone he is equally fucked.
Having the skill and knowledge to do insane headshots is not common and its not easy.
@@bonkbonk420 Outside of other snipers, I don't recall any other classes that can really punish a Sniper at long range, maybe rocket jumping soldiers 50/50. Sure it's a problem for short ranges, since that's where he's "weaker"
@@bonkbonk420And that standing still is somewhat boring as well.
@@bonkbonk420 but sniper doesn't need to stand still? Most good snipers strafe to make it harder to counter snipe
Okay hear me out: scope glare. It gets brighter based on the sniper’s charge amount and maybe has a slightly different colour if the sniper is aiming directly at you
on the contrary i think sniper charging his shots isn't really the issue, so doing a "sniper becomes more obvious the longer he's scoped" doesn't solve the issue of quickscopes being such a threat (in fact it just indirectly buffs them).
so what if instead, scoping in actually took a small-but-not-insignificant amount of time to do so? hell, most snipers in other FPS games have a distinct aiming time, and that's where quickscoping was _born._ it's during this time you could give sniper a scope glare flash (perhaps with slight team color tinting to make it even more appropriate).
as a hypothetical scenario, imagine you're in BLU spawn on upward. the gates lift, you head out. in the distance you see a distinct red flash. you realize "oh, that's a sniper" and also that you have to make a decision right now to avoid getting shot. what then?
I think the problem is that because sniper has a very high skill ceiling, and with how long the game has lasted, many if not most (also from better snipers being able to demolish other ones more than every other class could) snipers now are very high skilled, so if an uncletopia match has even one sniper, the team without has no choice but to assume that they have thousands of head shots. Whereas many years ago most snipers hadn't had as much time, so very skilled ones were far less common.
That’s not even getting into the skill of the entire rest of his team. He can be a half-decent sniper, but on a decent team, he’s pretty much shielded from anything. Back in the day, you could exploit the fact that not every person on the enemy team had intimate knowledge of every map, and could exploit that to get behind them and kill a pesky sniper. Now, it’s a coin-toss as to whether that’s the case in casual, with the odds being 60/40 in favor of the flank working… but those 40% times when it doesn’t work certainly aren’t rare, and can be frustrating when all you want to do is get undominated.
On Uncletopia, forget it. I’d wager you’d have a better chance of unboxing an unusual than catching any sniper there off guard.
12:00
Demoman has a clear skill ceiling on close quarters, whereas Sniper has infinite space for improvement
Huh??? Infinite space for improvement???
I swear you sniper haters just take the weirdest stances on it lmfao.
@@bonkbonk420 Not literally, but there's a reason bots use this class to oppress entire servers.
@@bonkbonk420 probably not infinite, but the skill ceiling for sniper is astronomically high. a good enough sniper practically has no weaknesses. snipers are allegedly weak at close range, but good enough aim can completely circumvent that. no other class can eliminate their own weaknesses like that, or if they do, they have to trade off something for it
@@bonkbonk420 "Infinite" stems from the simple math consideration that while 100% hit rate is only possible for a bot, there are records of players that hit so consistently their precision can only be differentiated in decimals of 99%, i.e. one guy is 99.999% precise, the other 99.9%, but that doesn't matter because the margin for completely shutting down an enemy team is reached at 90%. It's "hyperbolically infinite" because once you're at the point of always hitting, skill improvements are a black box.
The important part is that there _is_ a space where the difference in skill can be any of the infinite amount of numbers between 100 and 90, without any meaningful difference. That's the conclusion - no meaningful difference, between bots and the players above the arbitrary margin of skill needed to never miss.
@@slyseal2091...what?
i think the biggest problem with sniper is that the recent bot and cheater plagues made people function on high alert whenever they see a sniper. Now a sick flick shot isnt met with "holy shit nice shot bro", but rather with "yall got cheater on your team"
That’s part of it, but it’s also just fatigue. Good aiming skill was something to be rewarded back in the day because it was so uncommon, and the game still felt pretty new to many people. Now, because people have been honing their aiming skills for decades, and not just in TF2, aiming feels like less of a skill and more like a basic expectation, whereas gamesense, positioning, tracking, leading, etc. have risen in respectability. In an era where I’ve pretty much figured out most of the tricks of most maps, if a Demo can actually lead me to a surprise sticky trap instead of spamming at me, I’ll say “woah, that was clever”. Whereas good snipers are dime-a-dozen and it just feels like an inconvenience when I’m in a fight and suddenly, I’m taken out by something I couldn’t really have seen coming.
I'm gonna echo what a few other comments have been saying. I think the main differences are the ranges they're primarily effective and the sense of counterplay.
Sniper is the only class whos reliably that powerful at those ranges. The major counter play is not engaging him in the first place and just not existing where he is. If you have actually managed to close the gap on him it feels really bad when you get in and he can still get you with the quick scope.
With the Huntsman he's kind of forfeited his reliability at long range so now fighting him feels a lot more fair. You're both fighting at, theoretically, each other's ideal ranges and you can dodge his arrows the same way you'd dodge a Demo or Soldier. Sure if he lands the shot you probably die but he's now supposed to be a threat at those ranges.
Regarding the sniper rifles, I'm of a mind to give them all Machina trails. It'll at least show you if there's a hostile sniper somewhere if he kills the guy in front of you. At worst make the scope-in blank out for another 0.05 seconds.
I still have some issues with your overall thoughts. I think you left out/didn’t give focus to something in favor of the huntsman
The ability to reflect it makes it have an actually interesting matchup with pyro. It makes you feel super skilled if you pull it off, and ultimately reflects how people view it as more fair to deal with than a hitscan bullet
I definitely think the Bot Crisis exaggerated the grudges people have against the Rifles. But Dane put it best recently: Sniper isn't fun to play against, that doesn't make him overpowered.
In Sniper's case, he's just both.
Sniper is overtuned, but hey at least he has some form of counter play, minimal but it's still there
I always think of close range quickscopes as basically the same thing as trickstabs, both are last ditch efforts to save one's self and take lots of skill (sometimes luck) to pull off but missing will (should) result in one's death
EDIT: Quickscopes are harder to deal with if you're one of the classes that CAN'T survive it but is far easier to deal with if you are one of the classes that CAN survive it compared to trickstabs, both quickscopes and trickstabs take a lot of skill and risk to pull off but the reward for trickstabs is better than the reward for quickscopes as you'll one shot all classes unlike quickscopes (which is fine)
The problem is spy can’t also kill people from across the map. If spy ever fucks up, he’s dead.
If sniper fucks up, literally no one knows.
@@Potato_the_third I think it'd be an interesting experiment for sniper to have some sort of falloff, whether regular or reversed, if less drastic. like 75% instead of 50%.
With regular, snipers need to move a little closer to the front for that OHKO ability, risk = reward. 150 dmg -> 112, still high, but not lethal, unless you charge up more.
With reverse, sniper is still powerful at range, but can no longer OHKO healthy scouts.
Isn't the entire charge mechanic done to stop quickscopes? You need to stay scoped in to get the dmg up, but lose basically all peripheral vision.
@@HappyBeezerStudios On paper it should, but you can still land a headshot anyways because stupidity. This and short-range quickscoping would be a non-problem if you couldn't headshot unless fully charged, which is most likely what the original devs intended.
Except trickstabs are way easier to avoid and are a lot more in your control to fight against
The huntsman
- can’t instakill you with a body shot
- is really only effective at the range where every other class is effective
- can be dodged at mid to long range
- has a visible tracer round
- has sound effects to let you know when the sniper is firing at you
- has a limited ammo pool
- leaves visible arrows at the point of impact, revealing the presence and rough location of a huntsman user
Stock
- can Insta kill you regardless of your health
- can Insta kill you at any range
- effective at a range where no other class in the game is effective
- can’t, despite what you argued, be dodged. You can only make yourself harder to hit, which applies to literally every weapon in the game. Doing this usually slows you down, giving the sniper time to charge up a body shot and Insta kill you anyway
- provides almost zero visual or auditory feedback to those fighting against it
- massive ammo pool
Truly a mystery as to why people prefer the huntsman.
Also, I feel you glossed over this very quickly and then moved on; if something isn’t fun, it should be changed to be fun. You said yourself that sniper in general isn’t fun to play against. The majority of people who aren’t high tier competitive players would probably agree with that sentiment. Therefore, the class should be changed to be more fun, regardless of how ‘balanced’ it might be. Just like how, in the case of the huntsman, the hit box isn’t fun. Therefore it should be changed.
I personally prefer both playing and fighting a huntsman because if a regular sniper misses a shot, most of the time its not a big deal unless someone is actively engaging you (I actually dont mind close-range headshots because it is difficult to do and its easier to dodge then the jarate+bushwacka's melee registration), but because the huntsman makes it easier for you to do close to mid range engagements which are more dangerous for the sniper, a huntsman missing is going to be lethal a lot more of the time. I also think that someone who's put hundreds of hours into rifle sniper is far more likely to shut down entire sections of a map then someone who's put the same time into the Huntsman, again because its weaker at the ranges rifles are dominant at. And while I dont think making the rifles projectiles is a great idea I think the rifles still need to give more information about when a sniper is aiming, which I think having a team color tinted glare when they start aiming would be helpful while keeping it to the art style of tf2
TF2 Classic solved the issue of the Huntsman being busted by removing the whole secondary hitbox for the arrow, now requiring the Sniper to actually aim for the head with his bow.
It isn't as popular as in vanilla TF2.
TF2Classic stays winning
the question is
does anyone play hunstman then
Well that sounds boring
IIRC projectiles used to the large box for detection because the way server tracks projectiles in general was less accurate, so the risk is that even well aimed arrows may get screwed over by ping.
Well, the same people crying that the Sandman was overpowered due to there being no “counterplay the moment you’re hit” clearly have a different opinion on the huntsman that will straight up instakill a Scout despite not even connecting with their head at all. Double standards.
Damn ,fish videos are like a fresh breath of air but at the same time its an interesting documentary
Hear me out: What if every other class had subtle indicators that a Sniper is aiming at them and where he is. Mild Spidey-senses, if you will.
Perhaps an arrow pointing to them that quickly fades in with say, 60% opacity.
That way, you can actually see the Sniper kill you, and knowing where Sniper is allows for much better counterplay. Not to mention no other class has a hitscan weapon that can one-shot anyone without a random crit.
I mean, we could also go the splatoon route and add a laser when the sniper is scoped in, I don't see people mention that too often
@@hiei7682 I think there is a dot that shows up while scoped in, but Sniper players have developed techniques to hide it.
Having the full laser visible would solve the problem, and would let Sniper players use it to intimidate players the same way a boss's telegraphed attacks would.
@@OhCrapI_HeI think shounic made a video with this
As much as i hate bfn. Deadbeard and cactus have light flares that make their locations shine from a distance when their scoped and let you see them, and they use more of a long ranged revolver then proper snipers
Terrible idea. In other games where this happens is due to discourage anyone with a sniper from camping. In TF2, sniper is rewarding for being able to hold still charging a shot in a shooter where everyone else has movement tech.
I also disagree a lot with this overall idea that sniper is never seen before you see him. Engineer would have a quite similar issue with his sentries but this isnt the case, because good sentry places are only so many of them and you should expect them to be there.
I know hes making a point about the Huntsman being good at close range and is easier to use at close range but is that not the ENTIRE point of using it? That anything outside of close-medium range is more luck then skill? But the closer the enemy is the more skill is required to land those flicks on the scout whos straffing you? Not to mention you dont get a gunslinger effect when you equip the huntsman, you dont gain any health or special melee crit mechanic by equipping it, youre still just as vulnerable as you were beforehand
6:30 "kind of a dumb way to play [Pyro] that's often just as rewarding, if not more so without nearly as much technical effort"
W/M1 is all a 2007 flamethrower does
the skill comes from positioning, timing, and knowing what fights to take
It's the same skill-set as medic, but medic doesn't kill you so people don't criticize medic for being a noob class
medic is being targetted by the whole team and needs to know how to surf and other evasive things
pyro isnt op at all but he is not a hard class in the slightest
Rifle sniper: Leave spawn, dont see 5 red pixels on my screen, die instantly Huntsman sniper: Leave spawn, see the arrow, a projectile coming at me and jump to not get headshot, then im aware theres a sniper and can decide what to do next. This video just seems to be trying to prove that current sniper is not unfun to fight agains and overall way easier to play as nowadays wih the current hardware standarts by basing youself on a vision from before said standarts were a thing, looking at an outdated view on a thing doesnt validate the current reality. Sorry for the babyrage and broken english but defending this class whose only requirement is good aim for instant kills with the sniper rifle (which is a price a little too cheap in my opinion) and saying its somehow the better option over having some sort of indicator or counterplay (you can at least airblast/short circuit arrows ffs) is just a little baffling, but we all know that fish is a sniper main anyways so this comment will just be disregarded as "free hate"
Okay, so I've recently played Sniper as a novice and played against him, especially as a Pyro, and I have to say that the assertion that both of them have a Slow Firing Speed is wrong. It's the Sniper rifle that is moderately slower than the Huntsman, with the Huntsman being something that is not only incredibly fast but pushes the Sniper to the frontlines the most out of every other class.
Huntsman is less aggrovating to fight against because you can see arrows being spammed from arrows in the wall or the team colored trace and just wait one out and then cross. The sniper rifle is instant if the sniper dot is hidden (+ if not a headshot the Huntsman kills 0 classes in comparison to the 4 with the rifle)
unless the sniper has activated the crikey meter, then he can one shot meds, but its a resource so sure, let him have it
@@fourswords77a resource that he'll never use because he would rather use jarate and run away so his team bales him out of any fight he gets into
@@calebbarnhouse496 kinda my point. If the sniper is using the carbine, let him have the 162 bodyshot arrows
@@fourswords77 my point is that it's irrelevant as an interaction because jarate will always be a better way to do jt
I think the real lesson here is that all the sniper rifles need are bullet trails, since that's like 80% of the feedback that makes the huntsman seem less annoying.
i fully believe it’s entirely because of feedback like what was said in the video , on paper the huntsman and the rifles DO do the same things, but simply because the huntsman gives more feedback inherently (the projectile, the wizzing sound when it passes by you head, the thud of the arrow hitting the floor) all gives the enemy player that “wow that felt awesome!” compared to the rifles very small bullet hole in the ground that the enemy player probably wouldn’t even see. its sort of like that one game (can’t remember the name) where players consider the thompson, which had really meaty and responsive sounds was overpowered while the mp5, which had really weak sounds, was really bad, even though both weapons had identical stats.
15:19 that killcam is worth actual gold...
3:56 corner peaking spam is like most of TF2 but add splash damage
In the discussion of sniper balance, im reminded of an idea i had once for balancing him.
In Meet the Sniper, theres a scene where sniper shoots through an enemy heavy and indirectly hits a demoman, causing the demoman to flail wildly and fall into a pit and explode. My idea is that, upon a sniper headshot, the enemy player has a brief window where they are still “alive” and can retaliate before falling over dead. Its not a perfect answer to sniper, but it alleviates a part of the issue with sniper, wherein its basically impossible to react to a headshot. It also incentivizes good positioning on the sniper’s part, if not, the enemy player who they just one-shot can turn around and mow them down instantly.
I think turning the dot into a laser is the best solution. It fixes the issue of not seeing the Sniper from a mile away and it rewards quick shotting.
And if you get quick shot from a mile away That's so impresive you can't get mad at that. Also the Ammo count so missing means something but I don't have to tell you that.
It would definitely be interesting, but I think the moment you have a couple too many snipers those lasers would clutter the screen a lot.
I don't think the move is to make sniper play quicker. He's supposed to be slow and methodical for picks. Honestly I think they should just remove every rifle other than the classic
Why not make every Sniper's rifle like a Widowmaker's rifle from Overwatch? Leave a smoke trail behind every bullet you shoot. I know that Machina would require a stat change, but changing one weapon shouldn't be complicated.
Sniper is fundamentally encouraged to hardscope and stand still holding an angle with the charged shot mechanic.
There is only so many spots a sniper can be effective on good maps. We dont have this discussion with the engineers turrets and the sniper is just as immobile as a sentry if you want to be as effective as you can be. All sight lines on a good map are limited because you need to hardscope. Id be willing to argue some of his more oppressive sight lines are only enabled when the team can hold a flank. By himself, the sniper needs a skill gap to be able to fight everyone 1v1 and come out on top.
@@bonkbonk420 sure we can use better map design to reign in sniper's power, but sometimes maps with too long sight lines slip through.
As someone who plays the funny bow guy let me drop my 2.50$
1) Huntsman just gives more info.
If im peeking a corner with my team (lets say Upward last Offensive side.) and were going into that big room with the pit where red's spawn. If my medic gets picked off by a rifle. he could be anywhere in that room. if he gets domed by a huntsman. I can better tell where hes at and gauge his options based on his position.
2) The huntsman has a slower Rate of fire.
Despite the fact that the huntsman charges faster, its rate of fire is slower. that's because after you shoot a shot there a half second of holding the bow in the position then dropping it down and raising it back up with another arrow. The rifle just un-scopes, cranks a lever and re-scopes and then has that .25(?) second wait time before he can fire again. The reason why people like fighting huntsman because hes just not getting as many chances to just one shot things.
3) The huntsman is a close range weapon
rifle players play far and long meaning they don't have to go far to be in effective range. the Huntsman has to close the gap. There's just some points where im just like. "welp im just out here. can think of anywhere to shoot that's safe to peek."Sniper sight lines don't apply as much to huntsman.
Sniper does not have a balanced issue: sniper has a interactive issue. You don't interact with a sniper at long range unless you're a sniper. You can interact with a huntsman.
also taking damage from someone peeking and shooting is.....just kinda a thing man. crit rockets, stickies, sniper head shots etc. there a lot of damage that is hard nearing impossible to react to. a good amount of things in tf2 will one shot you, most things will 2 shot you.
I think sniper rifles need to have a lens flare, like when your scoped in, theirs a distinct light on the snipers scope that let's you see them from a far.
It takes skill to get a point blank headshot with the rifle, and it takes skill to get a long range headshot with the Huntsman. What it sounds like to me is that the rifle and Huntsman are two weapons of roughly equal power, but have opposite use cases. In fighting game terms, the rifles are zoners, and the Huntsman is a rushdown.
I simply enjoy playing with the huntsman more than a rifle. I get terrible tunnel vision when I try to focus. The quick draw and no scope nature of the huntsman just lets me keep moving. It has also helped me better focus on how people move, and helped my aim with other projectile weapons as well.
My only gripe is that I wish the projectile was slightly faster. I have gotten used to its speed now, but it does feel a tad slow nonetheless.
Honestly I agree the no scope thing. In a COD game I used to play with my friends we often played Gun Game and there was always this one rifle I was better with than my friends. It was red and had an iron sight which was supposed to make it harder to aim but it killed in 1 shot and I would just fly through this weapon with ease while my friends struggled with it. I preferred the Iron Sight on rifle weapons from than on since I could actually see around me, though I also liked the Thermal Scope since I could more easily see if someone is there
The double standards are strong with us one
All I'm saying is the huntsman is much more fun in all ways
I dunno know, at least for the most part you can see the huntsman coming while you can't with the sniper rilfes
Just to be clear, sometimes I'm jesting over in the comments rather than writing actually useful text
"us"
@@starmaker75the fuk you smokin to say that
Hi! I’m a sniper main.
I love both the huntsman and sniper but honestly perform worse with the huntsman.
The jankiness of the huntsman hit box always felt discouraging to me. However I’m %100 a long distance support unit so I use the huntsman on maps that lack good sight lines.
I do agree that it’s honestly better to at least be able to see who killed you in the sense of the rifle. I dislike the lack of downsides to the stock rifle though, like the lack of feedback to my missed targets, which is probably why I want the Shooting Star (a machina reskin). I love the idea that no matter if I hit or miss my shot, there’ll be a trail anyone can notice and locate me from.
Side note, it is kinda frustrating to be a sniper main when the sniper aimbots are so rampant. Some people may get so paranoid after encountering them that they end up so quick to accuse snipers who happen to hit them in a way that in their eyes doesn’t seem right.
Overall, I agree with a lot of points in this video! Nice shot, mate!
Edit: Typo.
Its certainly ego inflating when you get a lot of "hes cheating" and kicks just because you essentially just know how to flick.
These experiences really make me feel like a lot of the complaints is just because there is a skill gap. At what point isnt it all just based on saltiness?
@@bonkbonk420 people also just suck lol
oh but "the skill level of tf2 players has increased" not on fucking casual it hasn't lmao
@@xanious3759Nah, too often I’ve been put on a team where Im against a bunch of 3-5k hr veterans who all queued together, while my team is comprised of newbies who solo-queued. Granted, Uncletopia has actually helped in this regard, but even when that doesn’t happen, I’ve found more often than not I’ll be against a really experienced sniper who hides behind his entire team, and seems untouchable due to range.
wepon consept:
the lucksman:
25% chance to crit
49% chance to deal normal damage
26% chance to deal no damage
and its a bow
I agree with the overall point you were trying to make that just because a class is disadvantaged doesn't mean that they still can't come out on top, but since when is Demo bad at close range? And on top of that, since when does Scout counter Demo, the class who can place stickybombs?
theoretically, a scout at point blank range means Demo risks blowing himself up from his own splash damage, either pipes or stickies, unless Demo resorts to melee.
@@Appletank8 Yeah, but that also means the scout is pretty likely to die as well, so...
@@jacobnorris3903 Kinda true for Scout in general? Gets in close for max damage, but Soldier and Demo technically have an easier time too.
I really think when it comes to discussing how these two interact with the rest of the game the point of contempt isn't close range headshots, rather the long range interactions (lack thereof, really). Corner peeking with a Huntsman can get you a few cheeky kills but it really doesn't fire fast enough to make it viable over trying to actually play the game, not to mention its lower reserve ammo. Most Huntsman Snipers will try fighting more aggro in close to mid range, which feels significantly better to fight because of both having feedback and because you actually get to physically retaliate in that interaction. If you see someone holding a sightline with a rifle your two main options are not existing there or having an aneurysm while walking, and both feel like ass because you're not really eliminating that threat, just briefly putting it aside.
I'd personally much rather die in close range occasionally to a jank hitbox than constantly having to avoid an entire area of the map and play super passively to not risk instantly dying in a one-sided exchange.
I really like Dane's perspective, it's not that Sniper is particularly unbalanced it's that he's lame. There's a distinct lack of feedback engaging with a Sniper in comparison to any other class and it means he sucks to die to pretty much always which is why a good one is so infuriating. That and his range being pretty much infinite with no risk and certain maps having very oppressive sightlines.
Yesterday I was trying to learn sniper and got 8 headshots in entire payload match, by the end of it, I switched to demoman and proceeded to outsnipe the sniper that I was losing to because sniper is easiest class in the game with no counterplay.
Had he switched to huntsman, he may have started killing me again, because sniper playing huntsman and hugging a corner is equivalent to being a heavy or a sentry and being cornerhugged by demoman/soldier. Except even as a scout, you're not fast enough to go around the corner and blast him before he just does a 360 on you. The only real counterplay to such huntsman sniper is taking entirely separate route to get him from behind or sticky spam.
By the way, worst class to play against is direct shit aimbotter who always has his banner up so not even aimbot can kill him.
I like the Richard Hammond comparison to compare both weapons. The sniper rifle is the weapon where once a pixel of your forehead appears from the corner you get headshot and you die. The huntsman spams an arrow down a hallway and once you walk out of the corner you get headshot and you die.
I have played tf2 for so long(only 3600 hours or so) that when that pop-up appeared @2:10 I reached for the k button instinctually
I've eaten too many of Hanzo's lucklogs over the years to have a problem with the huntsman anymore. It feels tame in comparison, if just from the comparatively-modest fire-rate.
wtf is that scout cosmetic at 13:49
I love the huntsman, I much prefer it over the rifles cause of just how satisfying sinking up a projectile to an enemies head is. Clicking on heads is clicking on heads, gets a bit stale after awhile but with the huntsman your out there with the rest of the team fighting it out not knowing what will happen next. It feels like im playing more of the game than if im just standing there waiting for people to come on my screen. Close range headshots to me are pretty balanced because of just how squishy sniper is and how little mobility he has, if you miss your shot huntsman or otherwise you are screwed.
I take some issues with the argument around 8:50 because I would presume that if the sniper's rifles were made into projectile weapons they would A) Be after a reworking of the projectile hitboxes so that BOTH the huntsman and the rifles use the hitscan hitboxes rather than the projectile hitbox - or at the very least polish it up a little, and B) It would be so fast that the sniper could not be fast enough to move out of the original firing spot (when the bullet hit its target) unless they were firing from very far away.
Other than that other balancing mechanics could include: a audibly distinct sound (and maybe even HUD 'noise') that lets players know exactly where a rifle has been fired from (this would also make the Sydney sleeper and the Hitmaker have unique qualities based on a lower volume shot) or a clinching mechanic where if a sniper is close to any enemy he is unable to scope and drawing the bow is much slower. Not saying these are ideas I would necessarily go with but they could be thought about
Even if sniper is "balanced", the simple fact alone it's fundamentally unfun to fight against means it should be changed.
Not necessarily though, I feel like some unfun interactions may be necessary. Can’t have good times without the bad times you know?
@@samtricks1966 oh yeah, I can't have fun at the waterside park without without getting slivers of fiberglass up my ass.
@@samtricks1966By that logic the bots are good because "Can't have good times without bad times"
Good is good, fun is fun, unfun isn't fun, and having unfun moments in the game doesn't somehow amplify the fun moments, it's just less fun overall.
The only positive I feel when there isn't a godlike sniper in the match is "Thank God I can finally play the game"
@@ScurvyBoibut it does, if you had only good moments in the game, eventually it wouldn’t be fun anymore. Good things should be balanced out by bad things so the good things stay special and fun.
@@henrynagel7175 That makes no sense. Bad things in a game only discourage you from playing it, hoping the good things outweigh it.
Would you consider the bots a good thing then? I mean since it makes matches with no bots special by your logic. Or I guess they are "bad" but the contrast makes it a positive, which still doesn't make sense.
If the game randomly crashes, is that positive? Does it make the moments where it doesn't crash somehow better? No.
Same as this, I'm sorry but my fun with TF2 is not improved by having lame and unfun things.
No. You got all wrong what I hate about the sniper rifle. It's unfair/not fun because it can get you at any range and covers an ungodly amount of space, often times without there being a way to fight back at all. You're not really fighting a sniper, because how the heck are you supposed to do damage to this thing 8:45? No, when you are "fighting" a sniper rifle, either you are prey, or the sniper has overextended and isn't playing sniper right. The huntsman, on the other hand, can't do this 8:50 consistently at all without psychic powers. The corner peeking thing is much more easily dealt with than the rifle's space dominance, because the huntsman can't be at every corner at once, and needs to actually be close to the corner and thus also vulnerable to rocket spam, sticky spam, pipe spam, a FaN scout flying around the corner and killing you because the arrow happened to miss, you name it. It's not an ever-present instant kill threat at all times you need to be concerned about just for trying to get out of spawn.(this is why I'm a spy main. I just don't think snipers are fair, don't have to deal with them much if I have cloak, and I take pleasure in killing every single one I see) The huntsman is meant to be strong at close range at the cost of being weaker long range. The huntsman's ability to oneshot classes without warning at close range is fair enough considering that he has 125 health and can basically be oneshot or two shot in return anyway. The rifle doesn't have to deal with these petty risks. He's not really a sniper anymore, and to compare the two is like comparing the demoman and the demoknight. The only basis you have is that they're the same class, which is not enough considering how the huntsman is a subclass and can't dream to fulfill the oppressive role that the rifle does.
The huntsman is a glass cannon with very exploitable weaknesses much like spy which everyone knows is cucked by his lack of power(though spy players enjoy it), while the rifle is just a cannon.
To elaborate, it's not just problem of feedback. Don't get me wrong, you can absolutely juke out a sniper, but the fact that you juke him and he just gets to shoot again and again and face very few repercussions is stupid.
i used to think huntsman players were super insane at leading shots and predicting players, now that i know how the hitboxes work i might try it
As someone who's entire time playing sniper is huntsman, it's honestly a bit of both, the hitboxes definitely help but if you're good at leading huntsman at the same time you can become absolutely terrifying
@@nexusthenormie5578sometimes you have to aim still because the weird collision head hit box...might actually be a bodyshot...that of TF2 hates me
@@nexusthenormie5578 Agreed, the power in learning how to lead shots is fairly important. Especially when it comes to airborn targets like soldier or demo's on degroot keep.
I think the main reason for the change in opinion on the huntsman is down to understanding. It went from being the Lucksman to an item with a mechanic that we actually understand, and thus can develop skill in the use of.
As a sniper main, and i've been a sniper main for 12 years. I miss when being good at sniper was something to be proud of. It's not as fun when you hit a couple really nice shots just to get told your class requires no skill.
I’m glad it’s no longer “git gud” when you die to a class who can kill you from any range, is often so far up the ass-crack of his teams defenses that he’s pretty much untouchable, and whose only real weaknesses are to his own class, and his own mistakes.
That’s not something you can get better against, you pretty much just have to ignore that path until the sniper starts getting sloppy, or his team overextends and get nearly wiped.
aiming is great and does require both practice and skill, but there’s gotta be something to limit it from being easily abused by the myriad of people who have mastered it.
@@Brother_Piner there are ways to pester the sniper, but it comes to a bit of gamesense and a fat load of luck. but if you manage to aim punch the sniper when he is quick scoping he will miss and you can close the gap. depends also on map. i feel like sniper is only op on maps i dont play :p
The Huntsman is the embodiment of how effective aesthetic feelgoods are in altering how we feel. To the person against the sniper, it's full of feedback that FEELS reactable even if it's not, and to the sniper there's so much more 'you killed a guy, good job' response than with the rifles.
I haven't played TF2 for years, and even I got that feeling of 'maybe I should boot up that game again' from the classic image of someone pinned to the wall by a headshot.
What if all sniper rifles had the Machina tracers, but the Machina had a big laser when scoped in? Would that make sniper a bit more fun to play against? I remember a Shounic video where he gave every sniper rifle a laser, and that just sorta felt like shafting it. The Tracers feel like a fair middle ground to me. Opinions?
"Unfun to play against" isn't a valid argument in a game that has an entire class designed around being unfun to play against.
I could go into a whole tirade about snipers headshots at close range, but I feel like this sums it up the best:
“If spy isnt allowed to be strong at long range (ambassador nerf), then why does sniper get a pass at close range?”
*just because it’s difficult to pull off doesn’t mean its balanced.*
I'm glad you mentioned the revisionism surrounding this topic. It felt quite jarring to me, having played TF2 back in the day, to suddenly see so many popular opinions flipped on their head. TF2 Used to be all about Heavy stacks, Spies dominating lobbies and Snipers being free kills. Now, Heavy and Spy are both considered the weakest classes and Sniper is the OP class. I guess it's a result of the player skill ceiling going up, balance changes and the type of people who play TF2 becoming much more niche over time. Nowadays it is expected of a Sniper player to insta quick scope everyone in their fov, for people to communicate efficiently against spies, hit their explosives directly at heavies etc.
I agree with a good chunk of what you say about the huntsman and rifles having much in the same problems, but to say it's an illusion of feeling better to fight would be completely discounting how much tactile feedback really does play into a game at the most basic level. Same problems? Yes. I'd argue that snipers in *every* shooter have the exact same problems. 90% of the time, the only people who enjoy the inclusion of snipers in video games are exclusively the people using them. The whole "huntsman feels better to fight" statement and "they share the exact same problems mechanically" statement do not have to be mutually exclusive.
That said, I also agree with the idea that projectile snipers would do nothing to help the problem. I feel like sniper's greatest problem *is* his damage output. And I believe that that's his problem because it is literally the only thing he brings to the team as a *support* role that doesn't need to be in the fight. Medic can shift the weight of the game with an ubercharge in moments, but unlike Sniper, he has to be with the team, in the fight. You can minimize that by hiding a little further back, not approaching chokes without escort, etc. But at the end of the day, he is present in the "battlefield". On a good chunk of maps, the sniper does not have to take any of that risk to *also* swing the weight of the game heavily. Spy is no exception, but he has to be physically present and in the thick of a nest to do his sapping job or in melee range of at least one enemy at all times to backstab. Sniper is the only "swing-class" that doesn't have to put himself at substantial risk to do his job, the obvious exception being that there is not only a sniper on the enemy team, but that that sniper is *required* to be better or at least competitive. The only times sniper is at a true disadvantage, even against his "counters" is when he, himself has made a major mistake either for the sake of being funny or just not paying attention. He can remove the fear of backstabs. He can remove the fear of melee engagement. He can swing just about every encounter he has in his favor except in the case of the enemy sniper just being *better*. And when the enemy sniper is that good, he's typically causing enough problems for the team as a whole that sniping may've been the only real option for mitigating his impact. You see it plenty even in these super competitive nocrit/nospread community servers where a single competent enough sniper essentially chooses the team who wins on a coinflip.
the only reason people are saying the sniper rifles are OP is cuz of bots, change my mind
The huntsman deserves to be in the game, solely for giving a purpose for new snipers to use any other secondary than whatever counters who killed you, and being able to be more active as sniper while still requiring aim, makes it into a weapon that is for being active, while the rifles are designed to be as the game describes it ‘campy’
It’s funny, Dane just put his thoughts about Sniper being balanced yet unfun to fight out there and this seems to really echo that consensus well
Sniper is unbalanced except in the specific context of 6s. In casual and Highlander, the game would be better off with him disabled.
@@troy242621 I think not. Sniper are balanced (in any casual or competitive) by how hard it is to hit headshot (unless the player is cheating but that isn't the way you should play at any classes) which he need to 1-shot (or spend 3,3 seconds of doing 0 damage while other class can do ~450 damage first in close range. build a sentry, reload almost full clip even without any reload speed bonus, etc.). It's just that there is nothing you can do as his enemy in long range (except miniscule bullets damage or projectile that take a year to get him) which is unfair.
Also don't forget the training mode and MvM where the need of making fun to fight against is gone, just fun to play as (Yes i know sniper-bot exist but they are not annoying by the existence of laser and cover). Maybe he just need MvM's sniper-bot laser beam, remove/rework badly design map with big ass sightline, nerf the Jarate and reserve ammo so camping unfair spot that is usually far from ammo packs & common dispenser spot require more aim then it's fun to fight against.
@@troy242621without Sniper
9v9 wouldn't be 9v9
@@michaeljonathan9715 That's not balanced, though. It's hard to do, but not balanced. If you can do it consistently, then it stops being balanced, no matter the effort you put in to achieve that.
I think the swinging of that pendulum between the rifle and huntsman is that there are a lot more fps with hitscan-esq gun play, meaning it is far more likely that people who play games would be naturally skilled with hitscan weapons compared to the huntsman forcing the player to lead their shots.
I just think a class or weapon that can one shot should be the weakest options. It’s why I’m okay with spy being where he is. He can one shot you if either you’re not paying attention or he’s playing out of his mind. I’m not in the sniper is easy or op camp, but for a class that can one shot, he’s too good.
I always use this as an example, but the Kraber from Titanfall 2 is a good one. It can one shot you if it hits you anywhere, but it’s slow, has a low ammo count, has a projectile, there’s tons of things that just nullify it’s one shot capabilities. All that while still being usable, and the playerbase not tends to not have a problem with it, it’s usually pretty respected because you are crippling yourself by using it. It’s one of the worst weapon options in the game, but that makes it well liked despite the fact that’s good kraber user can kill you before you even know they exist by just shooting by your toe.
I’m partial to the slow him down, make his shot a projectile angle, but something does have to change simply because he isn’t fun. But something does have to change. He should either be fun to fight, or he should have to essentially cripple yourself for the chance to kill someone in a single shot. Even something minor like making every shot a tracer, having his scope be like the halo ones where you can see the shine before he hits you, something.
Proposed solution to the sniper rifle:
- Small dot that appears ON YOUR GUN while scoping in so you a sniper is detected easier
- Whenever a sniper's crosshairs is close to your head, you get a little effect on your screen like when someone poimts a laser dot at your eye, this way one can know if the sniper is about to shoot you or not
- Bullet has a very small tracer round, not like the Machina but like a pistol shot
- Distinct sound when a sniper rifle shot misses, like a "woosh" flying right past your ear
2 things: pyros skill ceiling doesn't exist. it's always a noob class no matter how you turn it. no skill.
2nd thing is. god FUCK i'm glad valve doesn't give no single fuck about their community and that they just do what they think is good for the game, you know.. bc they are the game DESIGNERS aand not some sweaty dog who cries about getting raandom critted.
Random crits are good.
Sniper is balanced.
Huntsman is infinitely worse to play against.
if you object you have no idea about proper gamedesign.
Battlefield did snipers pretty fairly by adding a distinct bullet crackle when a shot passes by you. Even HL1 & 2's sniper enemies have some good cues to give you something to fight with
The huntsman isn’t as hated because it’s a slight annoyance. You walk around a corner, die to the huntsman, and go on with your day. The huntsman can’t lock down the hallway cuz it’s hard to aim and has a draw speed. Literally if you weren’t by yourself the huntsman is probably dead. He got one random kill, whatever. Snipers stand 500 feet farther away, look over the entire control point, and he doesn’t just get taken care of because he’s standing so far away. I hate sniper more, but the huntsman is annoying. But it doesn’t work that well, you get some kills and die as you get pushed. It sucks, it’s dumb, requires no skill, and instantly kills you. The sniper is hated because it actually works. Snipers can and will shut down every important part of the map by themselves from a mile away, and there’s nothing you can do about it besides switch class and target him or just not play the objective to deal with him. On maps like upward, you actually can’t do that lol. The huntsman will die, it’s a dumb weapon. But people just ignore it. It’s a meme weapon. Also demo and sniper are different because demo inherently has counter play because he’s standing not 500 feet away. Sticky bombs mean the demo literally can’t defend himself with it form a certain point, and demo is a front line power class, and pills are hard to hit. Sniper stands from a distance so he cant just be shot or fought has extremely limited counter play, that requires all your time to focus him to get rid of him. Demoman can be killed by just shooting him, he’s in shooting range. Demo doesn’t have hyper specific counters. He’s got his counters, but he’s also on the frontlines and can literally just be shot. The sniper has his counters, and in order to be killed he pretty much has to be killed by his counters by being targeted specifically. He has to be flanked by a scout or soldier or spy, or shot by a sniper. If you’re not doing those things, you’re completely incapable of killing the sniper. Add Ontop of that, that the sniper has the ability to reliably shut down those counters with enough skills means that depending on the skill of the sniper, it feels like you *actually* can’t do anything about it. Rocket jumping flank to surprise the sniper? Instant death cuz not at full hp. Playing scout? Instant death if they’re good enough. Spy? He’s spy. The only one that doesn’t have this issue is, surprise surprise, the enemy sniper. The demo on the other hand, doesn’t have this issue because everyone “soft counters” him because he’s a fragile mostly immobile (outside of sticky jumping, something you don’t really do as a mid shootout mobility tool lol) power class within shooting distance of everyone else, or Atleast within rushdown distance cuz he’s so slow. He also has a small clip. So him having a weapon to defend himself from the range he’s literally incapable of hitting the enemy at otherwise is fine, especially considering his reload speed and clip size. Sniper avoids counter play by both being given the opportunity to kill his counters instantly, and by literally just avoiding the fight by being 50 feet away. Demoman literally can’t just avoid the fight, he’s right there. You’re either a sniper counter or you’re dead. And if you’re a sniper counter, you’re sometimes dead
we get it, you don't like sniper
He can lock down the hallways with it. If you’ve ever played Scout with a huntsman Sniper on the enemy team, then you’ll know it’s utter BS sometimes what they can get away with.
@@JeffarryLounder yeah, they can get significantly buffed by hallways, but I would say it’s locked down. If there’s more than one person with you the huntsman user probably dies before he can fire off another shot. It’s not really lockdown, just obnoxious if you run into one I’d say. I rarely, if ever, have an actual issue with huntsman snipers. Sometimes they kill me, but most of the time they end up dying if you’re not flanking by yourself.
Make bullets that almost hit you make a really loud whizzing sound in your ear
15:30 projectile weapons definitely do not inherently take more skill to use, as you can play soldier with a lobotomy and a blindfold and still topscore.
That's due to aoe. Direct hit most definitely require some skill
I thought the huntsman hit box was a meme until it happened to me as a battle engineer. I pushed a point on control watch, as an arrow went past me and made a sound hitting the wall behind me, and then 1 second later im headshot by an arrow.
I dunno, I"ve seen plenty of people complain about lucksman. Less now that everyone hates the Sniper Rifle but still.
If every rifle had a Machina trail I feel like the Huntsman would still be seen as just that janky fun side option, because no matter what, close range headshots will happen and you'll never really have any choice in the matter, but at least at LONG range, you get some amount of knowledge that the sniper missed and you have a chance now, rather than praying you can notice the pixel 5 miles away from you is in reload animation
I feel like a lot of people completely disregard that you can "dodge" sniper by having good movement and juking yourself and that's why people think he's the most overpowered thing ever and this is because exactly what you said in the video that there's not really feedback when you successfully dodge a sniper. So based on this video here's a few balance ideas that will never happen because valve doesn't update this game.
1. Bullet whizzes for near misses with a sniper rifle, if a sniper attempted to shoot you and missed by a certain amount then play a very audible bullet whiz sound effect for the player, not only giving feedback on successfully avoiding a headshot, but also alerting a player to the presence of a sniper they may not have known about.
2. Louder sniper shots. Make sniper shots generally louder and easier to hear for enemy players so they know when one is in play and may even be able to figure out generally where he is at, maybe a nice reverb effect.
3. Sniper scope glint, when sniper is scoped a glint shines from his scope which gets brighter as he charges, give sniper just a bit more readability, especially when it comes to knowing how charged an enemy sniper is.
A fun aside to this would be a balance change to the Heatmaker to give it more of an identity by making all these new features a bit more subtle when using that rifle, make it a stealth rifle fitting with it's suppressed nature then maybe nerf it's quickscope damage or something like that.
Looking back a couple years to my BF3 days, I feel like the sniper rifles there were balanced decently.
There is scope glint as soon as you look through the scope, to get rid of it you either have to go out of ads or look into a completely different direction, losing sight of all possible targets.
The game has ballistics, but the maps are much larger. Longer travel times and more bullet drop. .A decent nerf to sniping.
One thing I would add to your list is giving sniper recoil. If the crosshair jumps and takes a bit to recenter, spamming accurate shots is much harder.
I know I'm definitely in the minority but i actually *do* hold both examples at the end in equal regard. They are both extremely unfun to be on the receiving end of, and in my opinion shouldn't be in a game with such a large casual following due to the fun factor being down the drain. That's my main issue with sniper in the first place. The class isn't unbalanced, it's unfun to fight. Fix that first, games aren't supposed to be perfectly balanced anyway, there'd be no winners if that were true. I just want there to be some interesting way to beat it other than "don't get hit, don't peek lol".
Hey fish I think you need to look at 11:30, someone said a bad word
Damn another one of these?
yay it's fixed
true
I think an interesting feedback change for rifles being an effect if it barely misses you with a red one second "stress" effect over the hud
Just lower uncharged headshot damage to 90 and sniper becomes much more fun to play against. He can still get a two hit kill with one hs and on bodyshot on a light class, but he also now has to be much more careful and deliberate with his sightlines and pick decisions. Also can't shut down a whole server.