Before the Gun Mettle update (6 years ago) it lost heads when you missed or bodyshot, which was an important part of how it was balanced. You actually had to be consistently good at Sniper to get any major bonus out of it.
Yes that's true, i'ts really weird why valve did put that , if they're actually wanted to balanced every weapon for his official competitive, or probably it was an script error like the iron bomber has it , who knows....
That sounds pretty unusable. Even the best snipers miss, so to punish even one mistake is too harsh. This sort of falls into the same reason the baby face sucks
I'm so glad people are acknowledging the subclass of "Ultimate Demoman" also known as, stock with eyelander and nothing else." It's just so powerful, I mean a 210hp demo with both primaries and a huge speed boost is unstoppable.
Slower holster and deploy speed together with a health penalty makes it worse than the bottlen when without a shield. Not like a demoman is supposed to go for melee kills in the first place.
Considering that you mentioned that the Bazaar Bargain is a snowballing weapon like the Eyelander, it's really interesting that its crafting recipe (who the hell even looks at that anyway) needs the Sydney Sleeper and the *Eyelander*
"Nobody thinks much of them until they start dominating the entire server without mercy and without saying a single word in chat" (Soundsmith Sniper Weapon Stereotypes on the Bazaar Bargain).
The reason that no one complains about the bazaar bargain is because it's equally frustrating to fight against as a sniper with a stock rifle. So it's much easier to just complain about the class.
@@Tsunderebolt Agreed. I frankly have no problem with the Huntsman in principle, but I don't think the sniper rifles work in TF2. At least not as weapons that can kill opponents at long range in one shot. Snipers are frustrating since they can kill 8/9 classes without being risk from their target, their best counter is other snipers, and their design actively discourages both themselves and their opponents from playing for the objective.
It's practically like sticky tanks, but better since you keep 2 primaries with a speed boost added and an extra +10 health on top of that. And yes, the music was perfect.
Back in the day, the bazaar bargain used to punish you by taking away 1 head for every missed headshot. My guess is that sniper players avoided it back in the day due to how risky it was to use, and even once that downside is taken away, those now experienced snipers just grew used to stock or whatever they were using until now.
He softly grabs your shoulder, leaning in as his gruff voice reaches your ears. "Dunmaglass" he softly whispered before throwing you to the ground and slamming his sword in to you
This gun fills me with so much performance anxiety. I feel so much pain per missed headshot. But after you mentioned that the gameplay doesn't change, my brain did a big wrinkle. I realize I can just not care lmao.
This is the exact same mindset on how I use the Baby Face's Blaster. I just don't care about the boost, and play Scout normally. It's not effective, as you're basically crippling yourself throughout, but it's how I use it
i feel like the reason a few of the snowballing weapons feel OP is because they dont have a persistent downside, like the airstrike's damage and splash penalty, or the frontier justice's clip size.
I feel like the frontier justice in this case is pretty balanced cuz if you are playing in casual you will probably massacre everybody that doesn't know what a beep from a sentry is but against someone competent this just becomes a downgrade to stock
It feels unfair getting killed quickly by something whose entire purpose is to be objectively better than the baseline at the situation where you got killed.
@@thepedrothethethe6151 I mean the Frontier Justice is still a shotgun, and to use the crits the Engineer's sentry must be destroyed. Just stand outside his range and he cant do much. The Diamondback on the other hand? Oh...
''Dying isn't all that punishing" *Laughs in eyelander and air strike that can steal collected heads that can put your team at a disadvantage as they now have to face a buffed player*
question, if the Backscatter got a similar stat for ammo increase on kill, would that make it better and would that also count among these weapons that can steal collected kills?
@@drivanradosivic1357 I cant say anything about that idea being better (It actually sounds like a good idea) but I'm sure that too would be able to steal collected heads. Is there any head collecting weapon that isnt able to steal head anyway?
(maybe) FSoaS in two years: do you even think of choosing diamondback when picking a loadout as a spy? Back then it was overpowered, almost straight upgrade to stock; now people use it for memes and irritating people in kill feed."
@@The_Jho Because spy is a class that does what sniper does (taking out high-value targets) except he does it really close to the enemy, but at the same time has no real way of defending himself. In a 1v1 with any class, spy loses, which is a problem if you’re supposed to be a close quarters class
@@bruhbruh-us6gl don’t get caught? Isn’t that supposed to be like the main thing, also stock is very good for defending yourself, 60 damage is really good, the weakest revolver still does 48, which is a decent enough chunk
People aren't only complaining about Sniper because of UA-camrs, they've been doing that for years. It's become more prevalent because of a combination of UA-camrs and (in my opinion, more importantly) bots, because nothing should be balanced purely around human error - if it is, people will simply get so good that it doesn't matter, or make bots that will do it for them.
@@bubbley1234 more people probably feel like they can complain after UA-camrs complain. Like how a massive anti random crit crusade happened after a certain beard sentry guy made a video.
Imagine trying to run away from those situations without the extra speed and health: you likely would of died once you blew them up, it absolutely helped
@@shuntzu8649 The sticky bomb launcher was intended as a defensive tool to create traps and block off certain hallways/doors. It was never intended to be spammed in the front lines
People need to acknowledge the "training wheels" way of using snowballs and buff weapons. They're worse than stock until you get the boost (usually done by killing or excelling as the class), meaning that, for example, if you get a lot of revenge crits with the FJ, your Sentry positions and kill potential are getting better as Engineer in general.
The thing about it is that it’s 25% damage penalty is partially negated by its ability to make sure that if a single goddamn bullet hits you once you can’t even move, meaning that it will land a lot more shots unless you have perfect tracking with every minigun
It's a pretty much an upgrade except heavy vs sentry/heavy fights. Speed reduction throws off aim, jumps, checks spys reliably, and you are tankier too. Definitely a weapon of choice for KotH.
I think my favorite part about that killstreak montage after switching your boots and shield for explosives was the fact that you only very rarely went below overheal, let alone below full health.
"Blatantly Broken - Shows Natascha". I mean, you're right, if you're talking about Broken mechanically and not in a strength way. The Slowdown effect is fundamentally bugged and has been for years, to the point where it doesn't work against players who know how to stop it.
True, mind you, slowdown mechanics do work rather well at stopping certain things. Namely, anything that involves leaving the ground. Unless I'm just missing something.
@@trainershade1937 Yeah, it does work fairly well at that because the bug that invalidates the weapon has to be performed on the ground. (Pressing A and D really fast while running forwards negates the speed penalty.) However, most playstyles that revolve around the player leaving the ground are typically meme based. There are things like The Thermal Thruster, or Rocket Jumping, that it affects heavily, but Soldiers do have the option of not jumping and instead fighting the Heavy on the ground. It heavily impacts things like Trolldier, and Demoknight, who can't always just fight, or who can't get close because of it, but it's natural to have counters. Pyro can rarely kill sentry guns, for example, but that doesn't make sentry guns broken. Soldier and demo might be countered by a pyro who's good at airblast, but that doesn't mean airblast is broken. So yeah. It's a counter based weapon, that nicely counters fast moving classes on the slowest class in the game.
@@noodlecup244 I know the AD method, it's why I agreed with your initial statement. I was just unaware of if there was a method to avoid the penalty in the air as well, at which case, it's justified that I don't know of one. I mostly brought it up, as often jumping away is helpful for fleeing. The Natascha will (for the most part) force you to stay on the ground if you intend to run from it, making you a much easier target.
I use the bazaar bargain and the highest headshot kills i get before dying is either 2 or 3 Edit: I manage to get 6 headshots only to die right after getting it
10:23 I would have to assume they complain about sniper because they're constantly killed across the map whenever there's a decent sniper in the server, not because they hadn't realize how much of a pain in the ass that is until someone with a UA-cam channel pointed it out to them
10:23 That's actually a really petty and dismissive way of showing that you disagree with some people's opinions on Sniper IMO. People have been bringing up the fact that the devs giving a class INFINITE RANGE in a CQC game is, at the very least, "problematic", at least ever since I hopped on TF2, which was what, 8 years ago? Also, it doesn't matter who brings it up first or last, present your arguments FOR or AGAINST the problem being discussed. Saying youtubers are the first ones bringing up and or popularizing a possible balance issue is 1) wrong and 2) not an argument. Regardless, keep the good vids coming :)
An idea for balancing it is to make it have a "shine" when scoped in, like in several other FPS games have on their rifles, and have the shine increase in intensity with more charge, so higher charged shots become more obvious, especially on faster charge speeds where it would become bright really quickly.
i can see this change backfiring by making the sniper's head harder to see similar to the professional killstreak effects; therefore making him even harder to kill
@@williamj.2695 nah, the problem is that it charges so fast that you can land 150 dmg bodyshots one par with quickscoping. It should go down on bodyshots to discourage hitting bodyshots
While I’d personally prefer a total mechanical rework so that there’s less overlap with other rifles, reducing bodyshot/quickscope damage to 125 on a weapon that’s already barely used would just push it into useless territory. The Bazaar Bargain is a pubstomping weapon that’s at its best when you’re not facing real opposition, which is something that’s true of Sniper in general. But when the enemy team has competent snipers or any other counter prepared, or your own team is just at a disadvantage, having a rifle that requires you to get three headshot kills to make it better than stock isn’t desirable. Seems like you’d end up with another Back Scatter situation where the weapon is just meh - a theoretically easy to obtain upside with downsides that aren’t bad enough to make it unusable, but put in a situation where it lacks stock’s consistency and its best elements.
But headshots still kill light classes in one shot and everyone besides a heavy in 2. Just now you can wait 1 second to kill everyone besides an overhealed heavy. It needs the nerf and it would still be great
@@goon5665 It would still be great for pubstomping, yes (because Sniper as a whole doesn't really have any bad options for pubstomping, except the Classic.) It'd be a bad choice outside of that. Would much rather it just get reworked into something else. Do something like, say, scrap the heads mechanic entirely and give it something like this: -25% charge rate -15% damage dealt -50% reduced scope magnification. +67% faster movement speed while scoped in. This becomes essentially a hybrid of the Classic/Huntsman and the other rifles - You have the same speed while charged as the Huntsman, but still have zoom, a hitscan projectile, and the high ammo reserve. Unlike the Classic, you can still quickscope. But unlike any of Sniper's primaries, neither a quickscope nor a fully-charged bodyshot can kill a Medic at full HP in one-hit. It's still good for Sniper duels, and rewards aggressive play while not being tied to snowball mechanics, meaning its viability isn't solely determined by how well you and your team are doing. And, more importantly, it's consistent.
@@Zorutan The stat could very easily be changed to "-15% damage penalty on shots when not fully charged" (or something else entirely, I was just spitballing a concept that would be better in my eyes than nerfing the weapon as is.) That said, people still use the Huntsman and that can't one-shot a fully overhealed Heavy. The Sydney Sleeper can't do that either and yet it's also a reasonably common sight. The rework I proposed here is much more in line with the Huntsman or the Classic in that it's intended to be used aggressively, not from the backlines where you'd be safely sniping overhealed Heavies. Stock (or weapons that are just stock but better, like the Machina) is probably always going to be the best, but some of Sniper's most fun to use weapons are the ones that change his playstyle.
The problem with the unbalanced snow-ball weapons is after you get the buff their downside doesn’t exist while the balanced ones have downsides even with the buff.
sniper isn't op, he's just really annoying. Most classes are built around close to mid range combat, so with sniper be the de facto ranged fighter, fighting against a sniper at range is in the sniper's favor. So when you have a matchups against a sniper, most of the time its not a contest of skill, its a contest of duck hunt, with you being the duck. Granted the intensity of this depends on the skill of the sniper and map design.
@@privatepessleneck The range advantage and the fact that no amount of player skill can change the fact that your survival is dependent on the opposing sniper's ability (or lack thereof) to click your head really does suck the fun out of that matchup, yeah. In a situation where the non-sniper is actually at their effective range/environment though snipers do fall short...unless they're that one quickscoping sniper god that essentially just commands all things to their premature deaths. But that kind of skill gap is never fun to deal with anyway. A superior player in any other class is nearly unstoppable, but a superior player as sniper is pretty much actually unstoppable.
@@natchu96 map design and general sightlines can play a lot to, well made maps will often have lots of flank routes or limited sight lines, becuase yeah some snipers are really skilled, but rarely its them running right into the center of combat and quick scoping everything, positioning is important, it makes me wonder if people think sniper is more problematic nowadays is because newer maps are usually more open thus more power for snipers.
@@privatepessleneck as a sniper main, i kinda agree, some maps like turbine and dustbowl are just to good for the sniper in either sides, because there are almost no flank routes, so if the sniper is really skilled, the best the enemy can do is pick spy to close the distance without any issue, or pick sniper to challenge him out of his confort zone. Or uber lol
@@lucasdacarinha Yeah the main 'problem' with sniper is that he lacks meaningful counterplays for other classes. Meanwhile a class like heavy, while powerful, has weaknesses that can be exploited by every class, but sniper doesn't really have reliable counterplay outside of spy, pyro's flares, and another sniper. the former two are made worst however since the sniper can just equip a backpack and hard counter those two weaknesses.
@@MikeCobweb Kinda depends. He has a point that skilled players can somewhat easily counter demoknight, assuming it’s not hybridknight. Then again, there’s Demoknight TF2.
Killing a demoknight is really easy with distance, he's only a big problem if he has all 4 heads and is in dick slapping range and took you by surprise, but even then most of them will run with their tails between their legs when they take a little damage, I treat them as a tankier scout that can't shoot, if he is a hybrid chances are he's got most fields covered except for range but their main weakness is still core too demoman as a class which is getting very close too them, it's usually just 2 close range meatshots from the scatter gun to completely shut down a hybrid knight and demoknight
Fish's hatred of demoknight is kind of funny in that light because at best he can only run away from a lot of things, particularly airblasters and sentries (and it will piss your team off no end if you're playing demo that way when there's a ton of sentries). There's simply nothing that can be done about a good sniper protected by his team.
Honestly I feel like this weapon shows how long it's been since I've been playing this game in any serious capacity. I remember back when it was first introduced that missed shots used to clear out your heads. That was changed to be losing just one per a miss, and now it apparently your missed shots aren't penalized at all. I think returning to missed shots reducing the heads would be a good way to at least make this less "Stock, but better"
Sniper IS overpowered, all the issues with the class are issues you raise with *this* weapon. His rifles function times and ttk are too dam high. The reason nobody complains that much about the bazzar bargain is it's like complaining about the 20 foot tall ladder balanced on top of the 1000 foot skyscraper, *it* isn't the main problem with sniper, it just accentuates them.
Sniper isn't OP, his only unbalanced aspects are bodyshots and being able to lock down areas like a high range sentry. As someone that has played a lot of trade plazas and some 2fort here and there, I've dealt with a lot of snipers. The class is only really OP if he doesn't miss AT ALL, something which not even cheating can achieve. And even if he doesn't miss, you can still rush him down with multiple teammates like you would a sentry. A sniper is meant to keep enemies in line.
People dont talk about this weapon because sniper mains are either gibus or edgy anger snipers who use stock, and other main classes just hate sniper and think he is overpowered, i played tf2 for a lot of time and i only saw 2 times people actually talking about this weapon, one because it is cooler looking like a musket and others saying that it is a piece of trash that nobody cares like the third degree for pyro, definitely a great weapon
i dont think sniper is overpowered, i think he is just unfun to fight due to the fact that you cant deal with him unless you are also playing sniper or maybe spy and you always have to be putting yourself in his line of sight in order to maybe kill him
I liked the old downside of losing heads on misses, I feel like it would be pretty fair as it would make sure the upside is only gotten to insane values if you're really skilled. plus it would stop the fast bodyshot kills since those would lose you heads as well
@@dangergun2346 yes but actually sniper needs a Nerf reeeee. Sniper agers people because fighting him is like fighting soldiers and demos but the key difference being that they use projectiles and sniper doesn't. Fighting sniper is the same as fighting a power class cuz he is but it feels like he just clipped you or nothing happened on your end that could have saved you
@@goon5665 i'm not disagreeing just saying this community is similar to a hivemind because of how much youtubers effect their opinions, it's like they can't think for themselves lmao
@@dangergun2346 yeah I know right? I have always hated sniper but I know that sniper is fine (though I think sniper like spy should have a big weakness to make it more interesting to fight against) but he doesn't specifically need a change
@@dangergun2346 speak for yourself, but i came to the conclusion that Sniper was pretty busted not because of content creator X saying so, but because of the bot crisis we’ve been having. Its a pretty big red flag for the balance of the game when 99% of bots pick the exact same class and instantly start dominating the enemy team with it. And any bot that doesn’t run Sniper is either a meme (Spycrabbot), the medic GF the creator never had or dealt with with relative ease, simply by playing around the boundaries the selected class (lets just assume its Heavy, so staying at mid to long range with high damage weapons is ideal) comes with. Sniper on the other hand is just a walking instant kill button on anything in his LoS. The only restriction to that is human error - something the bots have effectively eliminated. In a way you could even view the bots as the "perfect Sniper player". Now, i don’t want the Sniper to get any significant nerfs or changes, but i do want him to be brought back in line with everyone else. Sniper was designed to be a long range, heavy damage class with low defenses. He isn’t meant to be able to run into the enemy base and kill anyone who comes around a corner to stop him that isn’t a Heavy (technically speaking Demo, Soldier and Pyro can also withstand the first initial headshot, but afterwards they are forced to retreat or face certain death, so they are out of the fight as well). My suggested change would be a reverse Ambassador treatment. He should play just as he does now, however, the closer the enemy gets (starting from a certain distance towards him), the less damage he is going to deal. By that we would eliminate the Snipers ability to instantly win close range fights with a quickscope to make him the long ranged killer he was always meant to be. A glass cannon that is capable of dealing great damage, but gets obliterated when the enemy manages to get the first strike on him (e.g. by closing the distance quickly without getting shot down as Scout, Soldier or Demo or by sneaking up to him as Spy). But balancing something entirely around human error in a game where everything else has technical boundaries and limits just isn’t fair or balanced - thats where the hate for Sniper comes from, not from some content creator pointing this flaw out. All they did at this stage was pointing out a glaring issue many had already acknowledged before. They didn’t start the hate, all they did was spark the conversation again. (Which, just saying, i haven’t really seen anyone do / i never saw anyone in a Sniper balance debate suddenly bring up any such content creator, so i highly doubt that the content creators even had such a big influence on this topic in the first place - but thats just my experience with it).
Still remember all those years ago when the Bazaar Bargain decreased it’s head count if you don’t get a headshot. Happy it got changed but they’ve accidentally made this weapon even better than Stock. Hope they rebalance it again in the future where they could give it a damage penalty like you mentioned or maybe rework the head mechanic where it’s a meter that gives you increased charge rate on a full charge.
Ok so let me get this strait The class that can instantly kill you from anywhere on the map in half a second without warning or way of counter is completely fine but the class that is forced to use only melee and has to get in close with a large windup and predictable pattern is op. And yea I know sniper is a human player with human issues but I don’t think that’s a very good excuse for balance since not only is it completely outside of the tf teams(two part time employees)ability to control but the ability to do that maximum output is still there with no other class being able to do it or counter it so when once in a blue moon it happens(or a bot joins which is like once in an inhale)the enemy team is just completely fucked with no way of doing anything without dying instantly to the sniper five miles away awaiting any kind of pixel change on his monitor.
@@mrmelon4534 Well thats just good team comp. As for the sniper turning around, the scout or spy will usually have the advantage unless the sniper is god tier. And if the sniper is god tier, should they really be punished for working hard to get to that point?
@@bestdogshadow383Can’t believe it’s already been a year since I made this comment I feel old but to counter your point the sniper isn’t being punished for getting to that skill level rather the scout or spy would be getting rewarded for getting in close.Think of it in basic wiff to punish balance.The sniper wiffs by letting the enemy get in close the battle happens when the enemy is closing the distance once they close the distance they have won the encounter and should be at a significant advantage even against high level players which is why it makes no sense as to why the sniper can still instakill you.He had the chance at an instakill when you approached him it only makes sense balance wise that the sniper would be weak at close range depending on his smg or melee if you get close to him.The smg does less damage then your primary does at long ranges but becomes stronger when the enemy gets close but compared to other weapons is still pretty weak meaning he will only win if he’s a lot better then the enemy while still giving them a chance since the smg takes a while to kill you.The sniper rifle at close range just instakill a you.There’s no way for you to counter it if the sniper is good enough to hit the shot and the fight is entirely dependent on the snipers skill.The scout isn’t rewarded for getting close to the sniper if the sniper is good enough.TLDR sniper is a long range class and shouldn’t have the ability to instakill at close range that’s what spy is for…Or at least he’s supposed to be but his class still kinda sucks since he’s reliant on the enemy team being brainlets and tf2s shitty melee registration.
"No one ever seems to complain about it specifically." Hi, no one here, nice to meet'cha. The Bazaar Bargain is a fucking stupid weapon that shouldn't exist. I'm also going to just continue to very firmly press that you are wrong. Sniper is, in fact, stupid overpowered. It was once said that the only counters a Sniper has are lack of awareness and another Sniper. Lack of awareness isn't a game mechanic, so how is it balanced that there's a class that can oneshot every other class and is the only class that can reliably threaten it is itself? My upfront position is that I don't think that Sniper can ever be truly fixed, the line between "brokenly overpowered" and "brokenly underpowered" is so thin that it's impossible to stand on, you're going to end up on one side or the other. The bots are actually a good litmus test of Sniper being fundamentally broken in its concept, as they make it clear that if you were to play every class to a frame-perfect degree, the Sniper would objectively be the best by such a lopsided degree you'd think it's Dwarf Fortress's learning curve. That said, in one of your streams you mentioned a headshot delay that didn't pan out on some balance mod. They should try that again, except specifically exclude Snipers from it so those piss-gremlins can keep shooting each other the same as ever, but everyone else doesn't have to deal with them quite as much. Also, nerf the damn Bushwacka. It now only crits when the Sniper is under the effect of a mini-crit buff, not when the target is affected by a debuff, so Cleaner's Carbine and Buff Banner still work, but Jarate and any given Marked For Death effect don't. The Jarate/Bushwacka combo is dead, but it's still useful for tankbusting. Fixed.
This. As someone who can and has rolled pubs with 20+ kill streaks on Sniper, he's absolutely ridiculous. Most of the quick scope kills I get are flat out unavoidable for the other guy. Even if they take cover, I can peek it for a fraction of a second and instakill them. There is nothing they can do about it at all.
@@iUseDemFrapz You don't have to be an "amazing" sniper to do it. I've got 2.5k hours in TF2 and sniper is probably in my bottom 3 least played. You just need decent aim and know where to position yourself and you can get kills for free, it almost feels like cheating.
@@NobodyEvenReadsNames True, my pal is not a big tf2 player and has under 100 hours and fucking wrecks me when she's on sniper just from having good aim skills. I've even killed wayyyyy better players as sniper just from getting a lucky shot of them not knowing I've changed class to revenge on them, and I can't play sniper worth a damn usually.
I don't get how a hitscan class that can OS half the classes in the game from any distance in an instant every 2 seconds, and simply cannot be reliably OS back from a long distance by any other class, can be considered balanced in any way. And if it was just PvP... I got in an MvM game once (Coal Town map, expert difficulty) with two players both picking Sniper when the team struggled to win a wave and they annihilated every subsequent wave by themselves (excluding bosses). It was unreal.
As long as it's not a body shot then yeh. Well at least for me, the most cocaine fueled scout main in the history of scout mains who's fucking keyboard looks like she fuckin was playing DDR on wsad for 40 hours straight
Just give it some actual downside (although I'm not sure if it would count as a snowballing weapon). I was thinking what if a bodyshot kill were to revert the effect by one headshot?
@@wolowolowolowolowolowolowo2417 fun facts, the Bazaar Bargain DID originally have this downside, except it reduced a head each time you miss. It also have you a head on each headshot, kill or not. Why they changed it to the current version is anyone's guess considering the original was already pretty good in the hands of a competent sniper and much more balanced since the snowball effect could be countered by going Scout and moving erratically while you close in. They either had to risk loosing their advantage by shooting you despite your movement, or fall back on their secondary and melee giving you a major advantage in the 1v1.
The Bazaar Bargain isn't the problem here, quickscoping is: 150 damage at 0 charge means killing 5/9 classes in 1 shot in the blink of an eye, which makes the snowball effect of the BB too accessible. The fix here is to nerf quickscoping to mini crit damage across the board, because you only get a head on the BB if your headshot actually kills. This way you'd actually feel the initial reduced charge rate of the BB because you'd be forced to do some amount of hardscoping in order to get your first headshot kill on an undamaged light class.
if you nerf quickscoping, you make countersniping impossible because sniper who holds down a choke point now is unstoppable because other team's sniper won't be able to snipe him. Really, the problem is with Sniper in general is not being punished for holding down a scope, which makes actually engaging him from any distance other than up close(which means you have to navigate his entire sightline which has his team, and him being able to kill you at any part of this path, including point blank because sniper has multitude of tools to instakill you at any range) imo he should take reverse ramp up when scoped or even minicrit so he could be harassed or damaged.
@@hapytreefriends78 Yeah I suggested something similar in my TF2 suggestion document, It hasn't gone down well with sniper players ofc. (Seems I can't link it because of YT)
@@TheNuclearBacon well obviously, it'd make them less overpowered and secure, they want to be able to kill everyone safely. But nah, scorch shot is a bigger problem here, it's much worse than snipers or BB.
Link to my suggestion document here: docs.google.com/document/d/e/2PACX-1vQHUuAylcK2LSiP8qM5sXISEQh-aWF-gI71WBEt0l6yd_OPqyGXHW9hPaOb6-vl_cve0DZZ1Ex2dkX9/pub It keeps getting removed because YT just suspects every link instantly. ITS A GOOGLE DOC YT, ITS NOT GONNA HURT ANYONE.
Cool fact; the eye lander can steal heads from bizarre bargain snipers too which I think is pretty fitting considering both are designed so similarly and are the best options for each class (or subclass)
5:55 Was probably the best moment as the Demo sticky-jumps to get there quickly, steals an ally's health kit, and then immediately loses all that health. I've been on all three sides of that scenario, and it's always funny.
Another detail about it, sure it makes the sniper better at his job but it also requires skill with the weapon to reap its rewards. With the bazar bargin, one MUST kill with a headshot to gain power and not be a worse version of stock. The diamondback is a different beast as you have to be decent to get real use from it but it is not tied to the weapon itself, since it gives stored crit bullets from backstabs and buildings being destroyed while sapping it requires no gun skill to get. A spy can get a stockpile of these crits easily by taking advantage of a few things: 1: oblivious teammates, whether that is somebody who has never heard the term spy check and mindlessly walks to the frontline or a sniper who forgets he can unscope and look around. 2: Sapper spam during a push, a spy can spam sappers on engi buildings during a friendly push, getting crits because the building was sapped when the stock ubered, buff bannered medic and soldier/demo team bombards the nest. 3: Undefendable buildings, if the engineer spreads his buildings out it is a fact that something will be too far away to wrench intime, for a simple example teleporter entrance which by its nature is far away from the other buildings, the engineer can not defeat the spy and save the building in time as he can wrench the exit to try and save the entrance but it not stop the spy on the other end spamming sappers on it until somebody stops him or the entrance breaks. By picking off one person waiting for a teleporter and then breaking the entrance, something really easy to do with good timing, the spy gains 2 crit bullets and is able to 2 shot most targets if he cant get close, say 2 quick bullets at the engi safe in his nest, which can then be sapped to earn the bullets back.
When I have max heads I'm taking every shot. I would prefer to headshot bigger targets but it doesn't really matter to me because the damage output becomes insane. Also if you're good enough I can imagine this weapon will get you vote kicked so fast.
Yeah, the subclass that relies on the inconsistent hit registration that is melee attacks in a game where everyone has good ranged weapons? Yeah too good
@@VentA_7 40-65% damage resistance against most bullet types Free Crits for Rmb Get out of jail free card if you DO take damage 65 damage on every hit, non crit Free healing 235 health (more than a soldier) Insane movement via trimping More speed than a scout when walking "b-b-b-bb-b-b-b--b-bbbut melee"
@@nutellapancakes3244 Melee, jank ass hit registration, no resistance against the most common damage type in the game (FUCKING BULLETS), countered by the existence of a pyro's right click...are you high or what? there's a reason there aren't highlander demoknights dumbass lmao
As someone with shite aim, I did appreciate the Bazaar Bargain as a training wheels weapon, though I'm sad to realize now that those training wheels had to come at the cost of balance. I've seen a great suggestion around the comments saying that a downside of the weapon could be that charge doesn't affect damage on body shots, though honestly fighting Sniper is frustrating enough that that seems like it might be good as a universal change to sniper rifles and perhaps another suggestion of losing heads on misses would fit better. They at least sound good on paper, a Sniper main would have a more informed say in the matter. Also, it's a bit off-topic, and I'm unsure if you'll see this FSOAS, but since you're doing more videos of good weapons you appreciate, I just want to say I would very much appreciate a video discussing the Ambassador. Spy is my least played class because his play style is particularly stressful for me (and melee/backstabbing is kind of a frustrating crapshoot for my internet connection) so trying to ease myself into it with a weapon that sounds as though it sidegrades him into something that rewards more traditional deathmatch skill is appealing, but many things I've heard including a video from a Woolen Sleevelet documenting its effectiveness against stock make it sound as though one would be handicapping themselves for using it, only able to just barely match stock at the cost of requiring extreme skillful use. So uh, yes, especially considering your Scottish Resistance video I'm very interested in your reasoning for considering the Ambassador a good weapon. Thanks for this by the way, these videos almost singlehandedly are what's keeping me interested in playing TF2, even with the bots.
Try going to a Hightower server with the Deadringer, Spy-Cicle and the Amby and practice, don't bother with backstabs, use the DR to escape and come back after getting health and use the Spy-Cicle to get away from Pyros Basically, just practice using it, it's worth it if you aren't that good with backstabs (though if you are, L'Etranger all the way)
I know I've been in TF2 for a long time when I'm all confused thinking "but if you miss or bodyshot it resets all your heads" but apparently Valve got rid of that at some point. That's kinda ridiculous.
Another idea for the bazaar bargain being rebalanced is decreasing the charge speed ramp up and cap, and increasing the damage penalty, but also giving it a clip that increases with each headshot. Essentially, you don’t have to unscope, and you can rapid fire headshots, even if they individually have to charge. Maybe cap it at 4-5 bullets a clip, or something, and add another downside, like increased reload time (you have to load more bullets).
Just a bit of disagreement, the damage penalty on diamondback is substantial for non-god players. You whiff the medic running around, you miss your airshots, you overflick, and poof, you no longer have a get-out-jail-free card and now is holding a peashooter. And mostly when you run out of crits is mid-engagement, which most of the time leaves you to almost impossible situation to get out of. Edit:Another disagreement, the eyelander snowballs hard on specific circumstances, or easier to say, countered on common circumstances. An aware team that groups up, a feisty scout, or a knockback attacks, which is common. If the escape with the shield is unfun, just have a rocket or a pill or a sentry waiting for a charging demoknight; he cant kill you from afar, and your shots could outrange him. If a demoknight escapes, then you kill him the moment he comes back. BUT i do agree transferring heads to switch from shield to sticky and grenade launcher just gives him uncontested reign.
In pubs, seeing a sniper that lays past 2 headshots is rare. That’s probably why most people don’t complain about this gun. The average player doesn’t have the self preservation to actually start seeing the benefit of it.
Fish, considering that intro, I feel like you bring up how overpowered the Vaccinator is almost as much as the scorch shot. As somebody who spreads heals very evenly as Medic, I personally don't think it's overpowered, and I can't think of anyone else who thinks the Vaccinator is overpowered, but I'm wondering why you do. Perhaps in the foreseeable future (not now obviously, for your health), you could make a video about the vaccinator in the same way you talked about the scorch shot, stock sniper, and this?
I don't think I'd use the word "overpowered" to describe the Vaccinator anymore, but I do absolutely think it's imbalanced and awful to fight. The main reason being the disposability of the Ubers, and how getting healed by a Vacc Medic at all puts you at an immediate disadvantage even more than if they were being healed by any other Medigun. The Vaccinator basically requires your team to have organization in order to overwhelm the Medic, and in pubs that only seems to be easy to find on the team fighting against me. On paper, damage type resistance isn't a bad idea, but the design of the game says otherwise since the majority of classes only deal one damage type outside of their melee. The only exceptions are Soldier, who often uses non-shotgun secondaries like the Gunboats, Pyro, who often uses non-shotgun secondaries like the flare guns, and a level 3 Sentry, which is I think the only thing keeping the Vaccinator from being overpowered because it means it sucks ass at pushing past parked buses. If you do manage to get past the Sentry though, you and your patient can cap while you're ubered which isn't even a little bit infuriating. (It is immensely infuriating.) Basically, having a Medic heal you is already an inherent advantage against other players, and giving that Medic the ability to completely shut out your one damage type at effectively no cost to himself is complete bullshit to fight. Me needing to hope that a Pyro or Demo shoots at the Medic so he might just switch resistances isn't fun. Again, I don't think it's overpowered, but if you made me choose to fight a team with a Scorch Shot Pyro who can actually hit directs and a Vaccinator Medic that can properly cycle resistances, I'd need a few minutes to think about it.
Hell, in the current bot crisis, I feel like I have to run the vaccinator most of the time. The moment I die to a spinning sniper and headshot icons flood the killfeed, the vaccinator comes out.
In the hands of the average pub medic, the vacc isn't a big deal. It takes reflexes and good game sense to play a vacc effectively since you're constantly needing to preemptively pop bubbles and react to incoming damage. Put the vacc in the hands of a competent player that knows how to pop bubbles at the right time and hit their crossbow arrows, a vacc medic and their heal target becomes incredibly hard to kill. It's pretty unfun to play against a good vacc medic combo, since they can gain bubbles very quickly and thus can stay in the front soaking up all your team's combined damage for extended periods of time. 8 seconds of invulnerability or guaranteed triple damage may be good, but a damage class and a pocket medic that is always healthy is way stronger.
@@fishstickonastick-gaming I'd like to point out that Pyro afterburn degrades Vac shields, which even allows crits to pass through it. Pyro wm1ing into the medic has an inherent advantage over any other class, and it makes Vac a much less effective counter to Phlogs.
@@kerbonaut2059 quick note : the afterburn debuff stuff isn't in the scorch shot thank god , the debuff applies in flamethrower afterburn (exept for the dragons) and the sfv , so ye those weapons are the only pyro weapons that have the damage resist reduction and healing reduction
"TF2 on the whole is a pretty well-balanced game" not even 5 seconds into the video and you already lost me Also, people have been complaining about Snipers being broken and overpowered long before UA-camrs gave their thoughts on the matter.
He is a sniper main, he hates everything that affects him, like the scorch shot (wich is op and needs a nerf/rework) and is the only way to stop a sniper for a extra seconds more that the other flares.
The reason I think that the Bazaar Bargain isn't used more often is the exact same reason the rifle doesn't have a downside, quick scoping is just too powerful for charge speed to matter. The increased charge speed can be really nice but even at double the speed why would you charge up a shot instead of just quick scoping them twice. For people that play sniper a lot I imagine that the charge speed isn't a factor because quick scoping can kill people almost as quickly while still giving the sniper some awareness and mobility. And for people that don't play sniper as often keeping more than 2 heads is probably really difficult and they just feel like they are decreasing charge speed for nothing.
6:51 for a second I thought it said it doesn't need to charge, and I thought like snowball cooldown (between snowballs, also yes this is the official term now) or something)
I main sniper and I've been abusing this weapon for a while. Even though I'd hate to see it get a nerf because it's so much fun, it would also kinda deserve it.
Why not just go back to its old behavior rather than a damage nerf? If you hit a bodyshot, you lose one of your counted headshots. If you miss, you go back to 0 and have to start from -50% charge rate again. If you can land your shots, it's a snowball. If you slip up, you start over. Then I guess just stop it from going past 6 for counted headshots so that you can't "store" bodyshots.
That sounds a bit TOO punishing, tbh. I'd go with losing one head (maybe two?) on a miss and not losing (or gaining) any heads on a body shot, but keeping the six head cap so that you can't get too comfortable.
13:24 lmao the kunai isn't a strait upgrade. It's a very good sidegrade, not the same. It's not 24/7 viable nor is it consistent. Consistency is the most important thing as a spy. The whole point of playing this class, getting consistant picks
high risk, high reward. you can easily keep fighting or make getaways under fire, but pretty much anything will kill you until you get that backstab. even cloaking does not help much if you find yourself between a soldier and his target
This is exactly what i think, put into a neat video very well. I don't use the BB because i play on higher-skilled servers where you can't easily get many heads before dying and since theres always a sniper just as good as me on the opposite team which often leads to rolling a dice on who gets the shot first and losing your heads. Stock is just more comfortable to use and can be useful straight out of the spawn gates. I do agree that in mixed-skilled pubs yeah the BB is a straight upgrade. Also stock looks and sounds better don't @ me
Honestly the whole eyelander portion isn't too bad. As a demo main with over 1000 hours (I just put this here to make my point more "valid" because thats how it works) I really like the idea of earning heads and being able to switch out with Shields and explosive weapons. I believe if they just decreased the speed and health for a normal demo, this could be a really fun option to play and fight against. I know not a lot of people would agree with me, especially with how devastating stickies are, but its still really cool to pull off
as a nerf, what about reverting to the point the Sniper loses one of the bargain's collected heads upon miss, like the weapon's original design? That means he has to actually try much harder at keeping his snowball effect up, 1 miss = 1 head lost so it's a snowball that consistently goes up and down, after all, even the most perfect sniper will miss a head, unless they're a bot maybe.
One way to help balance the bazaar bargain is to is to reduce the scope zoom since the "scope" is basically a magnifying glass that would kinda make sense
0:18 can someone give their take on why the natascha is lumped with weapons that are unfun to fight against? everytime I've used it people barely die due to: - having the second slowest rev time meaning foes can take cover and play corners without any harm and THE lowest DPS of any minigun, giving the enemy more time to kill you - slowdown is not only bugged (you can tap left and right movement keys to negate it) but it doesn't help at all when any other minigun could've killed sooner, the slowdown means you have to focus your attention on one person for longer, giving other enemies the jump on you so why do people hate fighting against it when it does fuck-all compared to stock or tomislav???
3:31 do that exact method , then rent 2 pocket medics one with kritz and one vac... BOOM! you got something that is arguably worse than scorch shot Edit : please dont do that
@@garagara4849 oh wait i forgot to mention , to make yourself a lot more evil use some good ol reliable binds Binds might include : - "Sticky and pipe spamming takes skill" - "Ur just mad cus ur bad lol" - "My loadout is perfectly balanced" - "Haha Rick May Bad" - "Bots are healthy for the game" And maybe add weapon names like : - Pipe -> D3m0n$$$!4y3r Desc : U suck i king - Sticky -> (Any racist slurs) Desc : (Every swear words in the english lexicon) - Eyelander -> Dead Game Desc : TF2 Ripped off Overwatch To top it all of use Dream fanart or a fursona pfp and name yourself "QueenBelleDelphineUwU"
@@JrdnKritz Ah yes, the ultimate skill loadout I remember once doing a 40 kill streak in a new player server (2fort) with an eyelander loadout... I wonder if it could've been better with switching out now for this loadout, I had a friend with me (not pocketing me) and he could've switched to vaccinator to pocket ...On second thought, I just can't help but imagine the horror the other team would've felt. Though it'd be... interesting? Perhaps that's the worst word I could have chosen haha it would be HORRIBLE both for me and the enemy 'cause I'd feel way too bad ...and then I try this and get face-stabbed by a ghibus spy yay
Good video, Fish! Though, I was honestly happy people didn’t recognize the bazaar bargain more than they do now. Cause as you said “quickscoping is already so good and why bother switching off stock.” Which is an extra testament to the power of sniper. Where “why even switch off stock when I’m already accessing this much damage?” But now the masses have been taught the power of faster charges for body shots and more damaging snowballing quickscopes.
![[TF2] Sniper's Best Weapon](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/z0XZqNJYum0/mqdefault.jpg)
![[TF2] Sniper's Best Weapon](/img/tr.png)
![[TF2] Spy's Best Revolver](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/oRqHCRSl-uw/mqdefault.jpg)
![[TF2] Bad Weapon Academy: Liberty Launcher](/img/n.gif)
>videon on why the Bazaar Bargain is broken
>goes on a 30 player killstreak as demo to prove it
I love you man
A trademark of FSoaS videos is 1/3 of the video not even being on a subject while still driving a good point across
@@Zmeeed01 except scorchshot complaints.
he was pocketed lol
@@seokkyunhong8812 Scorch Shot complaints included, I was a Pyro main btw
*a 30 kill streak while being constantly pocketed by medics.
Before the Gun Mettle update (6 years ago) it lost heads when you missed or bodyshot, which was an important part of how it was balanced. You actually had to be consistently good at Sniper to get any major bonus out of it.
huh.
That should come back.
Yes that's true, i'ts really weird why valve did put that , if they're actually wanted to balanced every weapon for his official competitive, or probably it was an script error like the iron bomber has it , who knows....
@@knightsteyri9110 No. It was unplayable.
That sounds pretty unusable. Even the best snipers miss, so to punish even one mistake is too harsh. This sort of falls into the same reason the baby face sucks
I'm so glad people are acknowledging the subclass of "Ultimate Demoman" also known as, stock with eyelander and nothing else." It's just so powerful, I mean a 210hp demo with both primaries and a huge speed boost is unstoppable.
Triple primary
Slower holster and deploy speed together with a health penalty makes it worse than the bottlen when without a shield. Not like a demoman is supposed to go for melee kills in the first place.
@@elfascisto6549 yeah but at that point the holster and switch penalty won't hold you back with your unstoppable power
@@elfascisto6549 and you can go demoknight then switch back without having to do that
@@elfascisto6549 wow guys he figured it out he found the joke omg I can’t believe I omg guys it’s Albert Einstein omggggg
The diamondback has a crippling downside nobody seems to remember. It's an unlisted stat but it reduces your accuracy by 90% when you get crits
Lmao
I though i was the only one acknowledging this lmao, its so irrating
@@zacsolo1594 did you just say lmao to your own comment
No someone posted a comment orignally but deleted it
not like it matters when they pull it out because they miss a backstab
I feel like switching off of demoknight back to demoman with the 3 heads is betraying some sort of demoknight code so I’ve always avoided doing it
Fish has broken the covenant.
@@doctorhealsgood5456 Confiscate his scrumpy!
@@Mike_Dubo We can't sire! He's become too powerful!
@@RandomPerson-cm2wg Then grab a medic to ubercharge your sorry bum, and get it done!
@@Mike_Dubo This is a pub server milord! There’re no medics!
Considering that you mentioned that the Bazaar Bargain is a snowballing weapon like the Eyelander, it's really interesting that its crafting recipe (who the hell even looks at that anyway) needs the Sydney Sleeper and the *Eyelander*
makes sense that when you smoosh together a gun that charges faster and a weapon that makes charges stronger you get an actual superweapon
Sword + gun = gun
Makes sense
The solemn vow takes 8 jarate and a reclaimed, and jarate, unless you count token recipes, which are rng dependant, doesnt have a crafting recipe
This makes sense when you hear the weird fact that Demo can steal heads from a Bazaar Bargain Sniper.
well obviously
sidney sleeper (rifle) + eyelander (head consumer) = bazaar bargain (head consuming sniper rifle)
I'm looking forward to the sudden influx of bazar snipers and 2+ head sticky spamming demomen because of this video.
I apologize greatly.
uh oh
@@fishstickonastick-gaming Curse you fish for revealing unknown viable gamplay styles. Now I'm hooked on the scottish resistance and I can't go back.
@@fishstickonastick-gaming great, I already hated demo before. Now look what you've caused man!
@@fishstickonastick-gaming you made me wanna do 4 head Scottish resistance games
''Too fast for you to have a window against my master."
- Bazaar bargain
what
What
wHat
Whatthefuck!?!?!
Confused screaming
"Nobody thinks much of them until they start dominating the entire server without mercy and without saying a single word in chat" (Soundsmith Sniper Weapon Stereotypes on the Bazaar Bargain).
>joins server
>Headshots everyone
>Refuses to elaborate further
>Gets kicked on suspicion of being a bot
@@VeenThePanther
The sigma sniper grindset
@@dannylamb456 yes
Its also cus of how bugged the hitboxes are.
Its genuinely so easy to do good with Sniper bruh.
The reason that no one complains about the bazaar bargain is because it's equally frustrating to fight against as a sniper with a stock rifle. So it's much easier to just complain about the class.
the huntsman unironically fits in with tf2's gameplay flow better than the rifle
@@Tsunderebolt Agreed. I frankly have no problem with the Huntsman in principle, but I don't think the sniper rifles work in TF2. At least not as weapons that can kill opponents at long range in one shot. Snipers are frustrating since they can kill 8/9 classes without being risk from their target, their best counter is other snipers, and their design actively discourages both themselves and their opponents from playing for the objective.
@@thedarkmaster13 A scout with an atomic punch can help against snipers
@@thedarkmaster13 bruh have you ever played tf2 scout still exists
@@thedarkmaster13 vaccinator medics can just say no to headshots
That demo gameplay on badwater, combined with the music from DMC5 was perfect.
I know, right?
*gotta let it out gotta let it out*
:nero_nut:
Judgement Nut Never End
Demo May Crit 5
It's practically like sticky tanks, but better since you keep 2 primaries with a speed boost added and an extra +10 health on top of that.
And yes, the music was perfect.
One of the most baffling things about this game to me is the fact that more tryhard Snipers don't use this thing.
Yeah i am kinda glad that they don't
I've seen more tryhard snipers use the heatmaker oddly enough
Theory: Most sniper players can't actually stay alive long enough to get beyond 2 heads with the Bazaar Bargain
@@unluckycatfish6866 that is the best-looking Sniper, so it makes sense
Back in the day, the bazaar bargain used to punish you by taking away 1 head for every missed headshot. My guess is that sniper players avoided it back in the day due to how risky it was to use, and even once that downside is taken away, those now experienced snipers just grew used to stock or whatever they were using until now.
Fish: “I’m no highlander platinum god-“
Me: _Has immediate flashbacks to For Honor._
He softly grabs your shoulder, leaning in as his gruff voice reaches your ears. "Dunmaglass" he softly whispered before throwing you to the ground and slamming his sword in to you
God i feel so much better after quitting the game
*Terrified Warden noises.*
This gun fills me with so much performance anxiety. I feel so much pain per missed headshot.
But after you mentioned that the gameplay doesn't change, my brain did a big wrinkle. I realize I can just not care lmao.
verified man
@@clanka. epic nae nae shart ngl
this gun FILLS ME
This is the exact same mindset on how I use the Baby Face's Blaster. I just don't care about the boost, and play Scout normally. It's not effective, as you're basically crippling yourself throughout, but it's how I use it
@@WooHooLadttv PeePeePooPooLad
i feel like the reason a few of the snowballing weapons feel OP is because they dont have a persistent downside, like the airstrike's damage and splash penalty, or the frontier justice's clip size.
I feel like the frontier justice in this case is pretty balanced cuz if you are playing in casual you will probably massacre everybody that doesn't know what a beep from a sentry is but against someone competent this just becomes a downgrade to stock
It feels unfair getting killed quickly by something whose entire purpose is to be objectively better than the baseline at the situation where you got killed.
@@bernardonegri5416 Not really... If you make the engineer reload, then you can easily eliminate him.
@@thepedrothethethe6151 I mean the Frontier Justice is still a shotgun, and to use the crits the Engineer's sentry must be destroyed. Just stand outside his range and he cant do much.
The Diamondback on the other hand? Oh...
@@mariustan9275diamondback is not op cause spy is wery weak. Still takes skill for do a backstab and survive after this
''Dying isn't all that punishing"
*Laughs in eyelander and air strike that can steal collected heads that can put your team at a disadvantage as they now have to face a buffed player*
*Laughs in you can steal those heads right back*
You can also steal heads from a bazaar bargain sniper
Vitasaw medics can steal heads too.
question, if the Backscatter got a similar stat for ammo increase on kill, would that make it better and would that also count among these weapons that can steal collected kills?
@@drivanradosivic1357 I cant say anything about that idea being better (It actually sounds like a good idea) but I'm sure that too would be able to steal collected heads. Is there any head collecting weapon that isnt able to steal head anyway?
"there's people complaining about sniper because of youtuber"
People have been complaining about snipers in video games for 30 years.
People have been complaining about snipers for at least 200 years if you ask me
People have been complaining about insta kills in games ever since they were added.
People have been complaining about Snipers only since bots arrived
@@nissanv1663 people have been complaining about snipers the moment someone threw their hunting spear at someone
French noblemen were the OG sniper haters.
You know when valve nerfs this or the diamond back it’s gonna push it so far down that the enforcer and classic will be considered better options
(maybe) FSoaS in two years: do you even think of choosing diamondback when picking a loadout as a spy? Back then it was overpowered, almost straight upgrade to stock; now people use it for memes and irritating people in kill feed."
If they nerf the diamondback, the spy basically becomes useless
@@bruhbruh-us6gl I… how?
@@The_Jho
Because spy is a class that does what sniper does (taking out high-value targets) except he does it really close to the enemy, but at the same time has no real way of defending himself. In a 1v1 with any class, spy loses, which is a problem if you’re supposed to be a close quarters class
@@bruhbruh-us6gl don’t get caught? Isn’t that supposed to be like the main thing, also stock is very good for defending yourself, 60 damage is really good, the weakest revolver still does 48, which is a decent enough chunk
People aren't only complaining about Sniper because of UA-camrs, they've been doing that for years. It's become more prevalent because of a combination of UA-camrs and (in my opinion, more importantly) bots, because nothing should be balanced purely around human error - if it is, people will simply get so good that it doesn't matter, or make bots that will do it for them.
idk i haven't seen anyone really complain until the youtubers but that could be because i stay clear of casual mostly.
@@bubbley1234 more people probably feel like they can complain after UA-camrs complain. Like how a massive anti random crit crusade happened after a certain beard sentry guy made a video.
@@Mr_Rykes what? Random crtis have been hated since the dawn of time
@@lolforlife2487 not saying people liked them, people just feel like they can express their opinion if a big youtuber agrees with them.
People have been complaining about snipers since the spear was invented
"I got 2 eyelander kills then went on a 30 killstreak by sticky spamming"
Yeah I don't think the eyelander was the issue here
Still faster than a medic or spy with those 2 heads.
it was
Imagine trying to run away from those situations without the extra speed and health: you likely would of died once you blew them up, it absolutely helped
Why do people hate sticky spamming? He's just using a stock weapon as intended. And hes not ONLY using it anyway.
@@shuntzu8649 The sticky bomb launcher was intended as a defensive tool to create traps and block off certain hallways/doors. It was never intended to be spammed in the front lines
People need to acknowledge the "training wheels" way of using snowballs and buff weapons.
They're worse than stock until you get the boost (usually done by killing or excelling as the class), meaning that, for example, if you get a lot of revenge crits with the FJ, your Sentry positions and kill potential are getting better as Engineer in general.
Or your have that one scout who keeps walking into your sentry... I still don't know why some of them do that.
@@softie4495 they try to run away from the pain, unsuccesfully
@@softie4495 trying to emulate meet the scout?
5:00 you're right fish, it does look swanky.
>Natacha on 'better weapons'
Kek. Sure. As a heavy, I really prefer to kill my enemies rather than moderately annoy them.
Not good on its own, but it's definetly good as a 2nd heavy loadout, which means definetly a threat in pubs
The thing about it is that it’s 25% damage penalty is partially negated by its ability to make sure that if a single goddamn bullet hits you once you can’t even move, meaning that it will land a lot more shots unless you have perfect tracking with every minigun
@@warmchoccy yea but near perfect tracking as heavy is not hard at all so it is a downgrade as long as you can do that
It's a pretty much an upgrade except heavy vs sentry/heavy fights. Speed reduction throws off aim, jumps, checks spys reliably, and you are tankier too. Definitely a weapon of choice for KotH.
Natacha heavyes can survive fully charged headshots if they are overhealed, except the machina. So there is that there.
I think my favorite part about that killstreak montage after switching your boots and shield for explosives was the fact that you only very rarely went below overheal, let alone below full health.
"Blatantly Broken - Shows Natascha".
I mean, you're right, if you're talking about Broken mechanically and not in a strength way. The Slowdown effect is fundamentally bugged and has been for years, to the point where it doesn't work against players who know how to stop it.
True, mind you, slowdown mechanics do work rather well at stopping certain things. Namely, anything that involves leaving the ground. Unless I'm just missing something.
@@trainershade1937 Yeah, it does work fairly well at that because the bug that invalidates the weapon has to be performed on the ground. (Pressing A and D really fast while running forwards negates the speed penalty.) However, most playstyles that revolve around the player leaving the ground are typically meme based. There are things like The Thermal Thruster, or Rocket Jumping, that it affects heavily, but Soldiers do have the option of not jumping and instead fighting the Heavy on the ground. It heavily impacts things like Trolldier, and Demoknight, who can't always just fight, or who can't get close because of it, but it's natural to have counters. Pyro can rarely kill sentry guns, for example, but that doesn't make sentry guns broken. Soldier and demo might be countered by a pyro who's good at airblast, but that doesn't mean airblast is broken. So yeah. It's a counter based weapon, that nicely counters fast moving classes on the slowest class in the game.
@@noodlecup244 I know the AD method, it's why I agreed with your initial statement. I was just unaware of if there was a method to avoid the penalty in the air as well, at which case, it's justified that I don't know of one. I mostly brought it up, as often jumping away is helpful for fleeing. The Natascha will (for the most part) force you to stay on the ground if you intend to run from it, making you a much easier target.
Parrot
Slowdown means your team and you have more time to shoot and kill the target, resulting in him taking higher damage overall.
I use the bazaar bargain and the highest headshot kills i get before dying is either 2 or 3
Edit: I manage to get 6 headshots only to die right after getting it
I use it in MvM.
Yep, and that's basically the tale for most people who use it.
Finally someone who is realistic.
4 heads is my personal best, I don't bother with the bargain all that much anyways since I'm too attached to stock for its skins and the heatmaker.
They DID say you have to be semi decent.
10:23 I would have to assume they complain about sniper because they're constantly killed across the map whenever there's a decent sniper in the server, not because they hadn't realize how much of a pain in the ass that is until someone with a UA-cam channel pointed it out to them
10:23 That's actually a really petty and dismissive way of showing that you disagree with some people's opinions on Sniper IMO.
People have been bringing up the fact that the devs giving a class INFINITE RANGE in a CQC game is, at the very least, "problematic", at least ever since I hopped on TF2, which was what, 8 years ago?
Also, it doesn't matter who brings it up first or last, present your arguments FOR or AGAINST the problem being discussed. Saying youtubers are the first ones bringing up and or popularizing a possible balance issue is 1) wrong and 2) not an argument.
Regardless, keep the good vids coming :)
“I then went on a 30 killstreak”
fish said calmly
An idea for balancing it is to make it have a "shine" when scoped in, like in several other FPS games have on their rifles, and have the shine increase in intensity with more charge, so higher charged shots become more obvious, especially on faster charge speeds where it would become bright really quickly.
i can see this change backfiring by making the sniper's head harder to see similar to the professional killstreak effects; therefore making him even harder to kill
Or you could just revert it to before it’s buff, when it would lose a head every time you missed a headshot
I’ve been saying this for years. It made snipers way less annoying to deal with in games like halo, for instance.
@@irohnic473maybe a less punishing version than what was before, like headshots increase it, bodyshots don't affect it, and misses lose a head
@@williamj.2695 nah, the problem is that it charges so fast that you can land 150 dmg bodyshots one par with quickscoping. It should go down on bodyshots to discourage hitting bodyshots
While I’d personally prefer a total mechanical rework so that there’s less overlap with other rifles, reducing bodyshot/quickscope damage to 125 on a weapon that’s already barely used would just push it into useless territory. The Bazaar Bargain is a pubstomping weapon that’s at its best when you’re not facing real opposition, which is something that’s true of Sniper in general. But when the enemy team has competent snipers or any other counter prepared, or your own team is just at a disadvantage, having a rifle that requires you to get three headshot kills to make it better than stock isn’t desirable. Seems like you’d end up with another Back Scatter situation where the weapon is just meh - a theoretically easy to obtain upside with downsides that aren’t bad enough to make it unusable, but put in a situation where it lacks stock’s consistency and its best elements.
But headshots still kill light classes in one shot and everyone besides a heavy in 2. Just now you can wait 1 second to kill everyone besides an overhealed heavy.
It needs the nerf and it would still be great
@@goon5665 It would still be great for pubstomping, yes (because Sniper as a whole doesn't really have any bad options for pubstomping, except the Classic.) It'd be a bad choice outside of that.
Would much rather it just get reworked into something else. Do something like, say, scrap the heads mechanic entirely and give it something like this:
-25% charge rate
-15% damage dealt
-50% reduced scope magnification.
+67% faster movement speed while scoped in.
This becomes essentially a hybrid of the Classic/Huntsman and the other rifles - You have the same speed while charged as the Huntsman, but still have zoom, a hitscan projectile, and the high ammo reserve. Unlike the Classic, you can still quickscope. But unlike any of Sniper's primaries, neither a quickscope nor a fully-charged bodyshot can kill a Medic at full HP in one-hit.
It's still good for Sniper duels, and rewards aggressive play while not being tied to snowball mechanics, meaning its viability isn't solely determined by how well you and your team are doing. And, more importantly, it's consistent.
@@rbfilms4752 ok I love the scope magnification nerf. That is amazing and wished that was the case, and I think that would give it its own identity
@@rbfilms4752 Any kind of damage penalty still means it will never be used. If it can't kill a fully overhealed heavy, why use it over the stock?
@@Zorutan The stat could very easily be changed to "-15% damage penalty on shots when not fully charged" (or something else entirely, I was just spitballing a concept that would be better in my eyes than nerfing the weapon as is.)
That said, people still use the Huntsman and that can't one-shot a fully overhealed Heavy. The Sydney Sleeper can't do that either and yet it's also a reasonably common sight. The rework I proposed here is much more in line with the Huntsman or the Classic in that it's intended to be used aggressively, not from the backlines where you'd be safely sniping overhealed Heavies.
Stock (or weapons that are just stock but better, like the Machina) is probably always going to be the best, but some of Sniper's most fun to use weapons are the ones that change his playstyle.
10:37 "sniper main salty, I repeat, sniper main salty!"
*_filthy casual coping, filthy casual projecting_*
The problem with the unbalanced snow-ball weapons is after you get the buff their downside doesn’t exist while the balanced ones have downsides even with the buff.
Fish: Eyelander demoknights seem unkillable sometimes
Solar light: *Laughs in power*
"Sniper isn't overpowered"
- A sniper main
Yeah...
sniper isn't op, he's just really annoying. Most classes are built around close to mid range combat, so with sniper be the de facto ranged fighter, fighting against a sniper at range is in the sniper's favor. So when you have a matchups against a sniper, most of the time its not a contest of skill, its a contest of duck hunt, with you being the duck. Granted the intensity of this depends on the skill of the sniper and map design.
@@privatepessleneck The range advantage and the fact that no amount of player skill can change the fact that your survival is dependent on the opposing sniper's ability (or lack thereof) to click your head really does suck the fun out of that matchup, yeah.
In a situation where the non-sniper is actually at their effective range/environment though snipers do fall short...unless they're that one quickscoping sniper god that essentially just commands all things to their premature deaths. But that kind of skill gap is never fun to deal with anyway.
A superior player in any other class is nearly unstoppable, but a superior player as sniper is pretty much actually unstoppable.
@@natchu96 map design and general sightlines can play a lot to, well made maps will often have lots of flank routes or limited sight lines, becuase yeah some snipers are really skilled, but rarely its them running right into the center of combat and quick scoping everything, positioning is important, it makes me wonder if people think sniper is more problematic nowadays is because newer maps are usually more open thus more power for snipers.
@@privatepessleneck as a sniper main, i kinda agree, some maps like turbine and dustbowl are just to good for the sniper in either sides, because there are almost no flank routes, so if the sniper is really skilled, the best the enemy can do is pick spy to close the distance without any issue, or pick sniper to challenge him out of his confort zone.
Or uber lol
@@lucasdacarinha Yeah the main 'problem' with sniper is that he lacks meaningful counterplays for other classes. Meanwhile a class like heavy, while powerful, has weaknesses that can be exploited by every class, but sniper doesn't really have reliable counterplay outside of spy, pyro's flares, and another sniper. the former two are made worst however since the sniper can just equip a backpack and hard counter those two weaknesses.
the best sniper is clearly the Classic
I actually like the Classic
@@coolnineteenfourthreethreesix your pfp is goving me nostalgia
Thank you
Well it lets you scope and walk at full speed
@@goon5665 No it doesn't
@@lacumbancha6273 scope in with the classic but don't hold m1
Still, demoknight is easy to counter, airblast,rocket on the feet, sentry, most heavys, snipers very far etc
Nope.
@@MikeCobweb Kinda depends. He has a point that skilled players can somewhat easily counter demoknight, assuming it’s not hybridknight. Then again, there’s Demoknight TF2.
Killing a demoknight is really easy with distance, he's only a big problem if he has all 4 heads and is in dick slapping range and took you by surprise, but even then most of them will run with their tails between their legs when they take a little damage, I treat them as a tankier scout that can't shoot, if he is a hybrid chances are he's got most fields covered except for range but their main weakness is still core too demoman as a class which is getting very close too them, it's usually just 2 close range meatshots from the scatter gun to completely shut down a hybrid knight and demoknight
Fish's hatred of demoknight is kind of funny in that light because at best he can only run away from a lot of things, particularly airblasters and sentries (and it will piss your team off no end if you're playing demo that way when there's a ton of sentries). There's simply nothing that can be done about a good sniper protected by his team.
IKR Fish's apparent hatred of Demoknight Is extremely silly, it's one of the most easily counterable classes in the game
Honestly I feel like this weapon shows how long it's been since I've been playing this game in any serious capacity. I remember back when it was first introduced that missed shots used to clear out your heads. That was changed to be losing just one per a miss, and now it apparently your missed shots aren't penalized at all. I think returning to missed shots reducing the heads would be a good way to at least make this less "Stock, but better"
Sniper IS overpowered, all the issues with the class are issues you raise with *this* weapon. His rifles function times and ttk are too dam high. The reason nobody complains that much about the bazzar bargain is it's like complaining about the 20 foot tall ladder balanced on top of the 1000 foot skyscraper, *it* isn't the main problem with sniper, it just accentuates them.
Amen
Sniper isn't OP, his only unbalanced aspects are bodyshots and being able to lock down areas like a high range sentry. As someone that has played a lot of trade plazas and some 2fort here and there, I've dealt with a lot of snipers. The class is only really OP if he doesn't miss AT ALL, something which not even cheating can achieve. And even if he doesn't miss, you can still rush him down with multiple teammates like you would a sentry. A sniper is meant to keep enemies in line.
People dont talk about this weapon because sniper mains are either gibus or edgy anger snipers who use stock, and other main classes just hate sniper and think he is overpowered, i played tf2 for a lot of time and i only saw 2 times people actually talking about this weapon, one because it is cooler looking like a musket and others saying that it is a piece of trash that nobody cares like the third degree for pyro, definitely a great weapon
@@GhostofFarta ... mentioning trade plazas and 2fort made your argument lose all its credibility, but I do agree with your comment.
i dont think sniper is overpowered, i think he is just unfun to fight due to the fact that you cant deal with him unless you are also playing sniper or maybe spy
and you always have to be putting yourself in his line of sight in order to maybe kill him
I liked the old downside of losing heads on misses, I feel like it would be pretty fair as it would make sure the upside is only gotten to insane values if you're really skilled. plus it would stop the fast bodyshot kills since those would lose you heads as well
"People sure hate sniper now because UA-camrs gave their opinions on the matter"
Scorch shot be like:
Nah but good video, this thing is kinda bonkers.
tf2 community hivemind be like
@@dangergun2346 yes but actually sniper needs a Nerf reeeee. Sniper agers people because fighting him is like fighting soldiers and demos but the key difference being that they use projectiles and sniper doesn't. Fighting sniper is the same as fighting a power class cuz he is but it feels like he just clipped you or nothing happened on your end that could have saved you
@@goon5665 i'm not disagreeing just saying this community is similar to a hivemind because of how much youtubers effect their opinions, it's like they can't think for themselves lmao
@@dangergun2346 yeah I know right? I have always hated sniper but I know that sniper is fine (though I think sniper like spy should have a big weakness to make it more interesting to fight against) but he doesn't specifically need a change
@@dangergun2346 speak for yourself, but i came to the conclusion that Sniper was pretty busted not because of content creator X saying so, but because of the bot crisis we’ve been having.
Its a pretty big red flag for the balance of the game when 99% of bots pick the exact same class and instantly start dominating the enemy team with it.
And any bot that doesn’t run Sniper is either a meme (Spycrabbot), the medic GF the creator never had or dealt with with relative ease, simply by playing around the boundaries the selected class (lets just assume its Heavy, so staying at mid to long range with high damage weapons is ideal) comes with.
Sniper on the other hand is just a walking instant kill button on anything in his LoS. The only restriction to that is human error - something the bots have effectively eliminated. In a way you could even view the bots as the "perfect Sniper player".
Now, i don’t want the Sniper to get any significant nerfs or changes, but i do want him to be brought back in line with everyone else.
Sniper was designed to be a long range, heavy damage class with low defenses. He isn’t meant to be able to run into the enemy base and kill anyone who comes around a corner to stop him that isn’t a Heavy (technically speaking Demo, Soldier and Pyro can also withstand the first initial headshot, but afterwards they are forced to retreat or face certain death, so they are out of the fight as well).
My suggested change would be a reverse Ambassador treatment. He should play just as he does now, however, the closer the enemy gets (starting from a certain distance towards him), the less damage he is going to deal.
By that we would eliminate the Snipers ability to instantly win close range fights with a quickscope to make him the long ranged killer he was always meant to be. A glass cannon that is capable of dealing great damage, but gets obliterated when the enemy manages to get the first strike on him (e.g. by closing the distance quickly without getting shot down as Scout, Soldier or Demo or by sneaking up to him as Spy).
But balancing something entirely around human error in a game where everything else has technical boundaries and limits just isn’t fair or balanced - thats where the hate for Sniper comes from, not from some content creator pointing this flaw out. All they did at this stage was pointing out a glaring issue many had already acknowledged before. They didn’t start the hate, all they did was spark the conversation again.
(Which, just saying, i haven’t really seen anyone do / i never saw anyone in a Sniper balance debate suddenly bring up any such content creator, so i highly doubt that the content creators even had such a big influence on this topic in the first place - but thats just my experience with it).
3:32
Cant wait to suffer serverwide *this*
Still remember all those years ago when the Bazaar Bargain decreased it’s head count if you don’t get a headshot. Happy it got changed but they’ve accidentally made this weapon even better than Stock.
Hope they rebalance it again in the future where they could give it a damage penalty like you mentioned or maybe rework the head mechanic where it’s a meter that gives you increased charge rate on a full charge.
Ok so let me get this strait
The class that can instantly kill you from anywhere on the map in half a second without warning or way of counter is completely fine but the class that is forced to use only melee and has to get in close with a large windup and predictable pattern is op.
And yea I know sniper is a human player with human issues but I don’t think that’s a very good excuse for balance since not only is it completely outside of the tf teams(two part time employees)ability to control but the ability to do that maximum output is still there with no other class being able to do it or counter it so when once in a blue moon it happens(or a bot joins which is like once in an inhale)the enemy team is just completely fucked with no way of doing anything without dying instantly to the sniper five miles away awaiting any kind of pixel change on his monitor.
a bit puzzling that he calls demonknights OP. he is a sniper main, and demoknights are hard countered by range
Just remember a scout or spy can just take a flank route and boom, sniper gone
@@bestdogshadow383 but a sniper can be backed up by his team, a sentry or could just, you know, TURN AROUND
@@mrmelon4534 Well thats just good team comp. As for the sniper turning around, the scout or spy will usually have the advantage unless the sniper is god tier. And if the sniper is god tier, should they really be punished for working hard to get to that point?
@@bestdogshadow383Can’t believe it’s already been a year since I made this comment I feel old but to counter your point the sniper isn’t being punished for getting to that skill level rather the scout or spy would be getting rewarded for getting in close.Think of it in basic wiff to punish balance.The sniper wiffs by letting the enemy get in close the battle happens when the enemy is closing the distance once they close the distance they have won the encounter and should be at a significant advantage even against high level players which is why it makes no sense as to why the sniper can still instakill you.He had the chance at an instakill when you approached him it only makes sense balance wise that the sniper would be weak at close range depending on his smg or melee if you get close to him.The smg does less damage then your primary does at long ranges but becomes stronger when the enemy gets close but compared to other weapons is still pretty weak meaning he will only win if he’s a lot better then the enemy while still giving them a chance since the smg takes a while to kill you.The sniper rifle at close range just instakill a you.There’s no way for you to counter it if the sniper is good enough to hit the shot and the fight is entirely dependent on the snipers skill.The scout isn’t rewarded for getting close to the sniper if the sniper is good enough.TLDR sniper is a long range class and shouldn’t have the ability to instakill at close range that’s what spy is for…Or at least he’s supposed to be but his class still kinda sucks since he’s reliant on the enemy team being brainlets and tf2s shitty melee registration.
"No one ever seems to complain about it specifically."
Hi, no one here, nice to meet'cha. The Bazaar Bargain is a fucking stupid weapon that shouldn't exist.
I'm also going to just continue to very firmly press that you are wrong. Sniper is, in fact, stupid overpowered. It was once said that the only counters a Sniper has are lack of awareness and another Sniper. Lack of awareness isn't a game mechanic, so how is it balanced that there's a class that can oneshot every other class and is the only class that can reliably threaten it is itself? My upfront position is that I don't think that Sniper can ever be truly fixed, the line between "brokenly overpowered" and "brokenly underpowered" is so thin that it's impossible to stand on, you're going to end up on one side or the other. The bots are actually a good litmus test of Sniper being fundamentally broken in its concept, as they make it clear that if you were to play every class to a frame-perfect degree, the Sniper would objectively be the best by such a lopsided degree you'd think it's Dwarf Fortress's learning curve.
That said, in one of your streams you mentioned a headshot delay that didn't pan out on some balance mod. They should try that again, except specifically exclude Snipers from it so those piss-gremlins can keep shooting each other the same as ever, but everyone else doesn't have to deal with them quite as much. Also, nerf the damn Bushwacka. It now only crits when the Sniper is under the effect of a mini-crit buff, not when the target is affected by a debuff, so Cleaner's Carbine and Buff Banner still work, but Jarate and any given Marked For Death effect don't. The Jarate/Bushwacka combo is dead, but it's still useful for tankbusting. Fixed.
This. As someone who can and has rolled pubs with 20+ kill streaks on Sniper, he's absolutely ridiculous. Most of the quick scope kills I get are flat out unavoidable for the other guy. Even if they take cover, I can peek it for a fraction of a second and instakill them. There is nothing they can do about it at all.
NobodyEvenReadsNames lmao I doubt u are actually that good on sniper. No amazing sniper says the shit ur saying.
@@iUseDemFrapz You don't have to be an "amazing" sniper to do it. I've got 2.5k hours in TF2 and sniper is probably in my bottom 3 least played. You just need decent aim and know where to position yourself and you can get kills for free, it almost feels like cheating.
@@NobodyEvenReadsNames True, my pal is not a big tf2 player and has under 100 hours and fucking wrecks me when she's on sniper just from having good aim skills.
I've even killed wayyyyy better players as sniper just from getting a lucky shot of them not knowing I've changed class to revenge on them, and I can't play sniper worth a damn usually.
I don't get how a hitscan class that can OS half the classes in the game from any distance in an instant every 2 seconds, and simply cannot be reliably OS back from a long distance by any other class, can be considered balanced in any way.
And if it was just PvP... I got in an MvM game once (Coal Town map, expert difficulty) with two players both picking Sniper when the team struggled to win a wave and they annihilated every subsequent wave by themselves (excluding bosses). It was unreal.
people would get angry at you for killing them with Sidney Sleever all the time, but Bazaar? Nah that's S K I L L
As long as it's not a body shot then yeh. Well at least for me, the most cocaine fueled scout main in the history of scout mains who's fucking keyboard looks like she fuckin was playing DDR on wsad for 40 hours straight
@@EvilRaccoonDM I need to see this. and also the damage it pays on your keyboard.
@@EvilRaccoonDM then you would hate me when I use Sidney Sleever >:D
@@airplanemaniacgaming7877 my A key in particular is FUCKED
@@tinypixiebread nah not really, I get more pissed at the machina
It’s videos like this, where the solution to the OP weapon is so blindingly simple, that I ask: Valve, what the fuck are you doing over there?
Just give it some actual downside (although I'm not sure if it would count as a snowballing weapon). I was thinking what if a bodyshot kill were to revert the effect by one headshot?
@@wolowolowolowolowolowolowo2417 fun facts, the Bazaar Bargain DID originally have this downside, except it reduced a head each time you miss. It also have you a head on each headshot, kill or not.
Why they changed it to the current version is anyone's guess considering the original was already pretty good in the hands of a competent sniper and much more balanced since the snowball effect could be countered by going Scout and moving erratically while you close in. They either had to risk loosing their advantage by shooting you despite your movement, or fall back on their secondary and melee giving you a major advantage in the 1v1.
@@joanaguayoplanell4912 the original was like the baby faces blaster now, it was constantly a downgrade unless you were aimbotting
@@dkskcjfjswwwwwws413 the BFB is just fine if you use it to flank l8ie Scout was supoosed to do
The Bazaar Bargain isn't the problem here, quickscoping is: 150 damage at 0 charge means killing 5/9 classes in 1 shot in the blink of an eye, which makes the snowball effect of the BB too accessible. The fix here is to nerf quickscoping to mini crit damage across the board, because you only get a head on the BB if your headshot actually kills. This way you'd actually feel the initial reduced charge rate of the BB because you'd be forced to do some amount of hardscoping in order to get your first headshot kill on an undamaged light class.
if you nerf quickscoping, you make countersniping impossible because sniper who holds down a choke point now is unstoppable because other team's sniper won't be able to snipe him.
Really, the problem is with Sniper in general is not being punished for holding down a scope, which makes actually engaging him from any distance other than up close(which means you have to navigate his entire sightline which has his team, and him being able to kill you at any part of this path, including point blank because sniper has multitude of tools to instakill you at any range) imo he should take reverse ramp up when scoped or even minicrit so he could be harassed or damaged.
@@hapytreefriends78 Yeah I suggested something similar in my TF2 suggestion document, It hasn't gone down well with sniper players ofc. (Seems I can't link it because of YT)
@@TheNuclearBacon well obviously, it'd make them less overpowered and secure, they want to be able to kill everyone safely.
But nah, scorch shot is a bigger problem here, it's much worse than snipers or BB.
Link to my suggestion document here: docs.google.com/document/d/e/2PACX-1vQHUuAylcK2LSiP8qM5sXISEQh-aWF-gI71WBEt0l6yd_OPqyGXHW9hPaOb6-vl_cve0DZZ1Ex2dkX9/pub It keeps getting removed because YT just suspects every link instantly. ITS A GOOGLE DOC YT, ITS NOT GONNA HURT ANYONE.
@@TheNuclearBacon Thanks, gonna check it out and then comment when done!
"Demoknights are hard to kill, Sniper isn't overpowered"
I would _love_ to live in whatever utopian alternate reality you came from
I must applaud your use of hades music in the background, as a fellow avid enjoyer
I just woke up, and I see a new notification!
I was about to go to sleep when I saw this and thought "I have time"
Cool fact; the eye lander can steal heads from bizarre bargain snipers too which I think is pretty fitting considering both are designed so similarly and are the best options for each class (or subclass)
5:55
Was probably the best moment as the Demo sticky-jumps to get there quickly, steals an ally's health kit, and then immediately loses all that health.
I've been on all three sides of that scenario, and it's always funny.
Superb music choice.
Kinda weird how as soon as I go on a hades binge the music follows me
Another detail about it, sure it makes the sniper better at his job but it also requires skill with the weapon to reap its rewards. With the bazar bargin, one MUST kill with a headshot to gain power and not be a worse version of stock.
The diamondback is a different beast as you have to be decent to get real use from it but it is not tied to the weapon itself, since it gives stored crit bullets from backstabs and buildings being destroyed while sapping it requires no gun skill to get.
A spy can get a stockpile of these crits easily by taking advantage of a few things:
1: oblivious teammates, whether that is somebody who has never heard the term spy check and mindlessly walks to the frontline or a sniper who forgets he can unscope and look around.
2: Sapper spam during a push, a spy can spam sappers on engi buildings during a friendly push, getting crits because the building was sapped when the stock ubered, buff bannered medic and soldier/demo team bombards the nest.
3: Undefendable buildings, if the engineer spreads his buildings out it is a fact that something will be too far away to wrench intime, for a simple example teleporter entrance which by its nature is far away from the other buildings, the engineer can not defeat the spy and save the building in time as he can wrench the exit to try and save the entrance but it not stop the spy on the other end spamming sappers on it until somebody stops him or the entrance breaks.
By picking off one person waiting for a teleporter and then breaking the entrance, something really easy to do with good timing, the spy gains 2 crit bullets and is able to 2 shot most targets if he cant get close, say 2 quick bullets at the engi safe in his nest, which can then be sapped to earn the bullets back.
I just like how it looks. So smooth and feels more comfortable to shoot from the hip, I'll take that 50 damage at any range any time
When I have max heads I'm taking every shot. I would prefer to headshot bigger targets but it doesn't really matter to me because the damage output becomes insane. Also if you're good enough I can imagine this weapon will get you vote kicked so fast.
7:52
Darwins shield: allow *us* to introduce *ourselves*
Loving the Hades music, keep up this quality dude.
3:12 sounds like a Sniper main how got burned too many times.
I really just watched a man claim Demoknight of everything was too good. Hahaha
After playing demoknight for like 25 hours of my time as demoman, you are countered by wayyyyyyyyy more things than sentries and the Natascha.
Yeah, the subclass that relies on the inconsistent hit registration that is melee attacks in a game where everyone has good ranged weapons? Yeah too good
@@VentA_7
40-65% damage resistance against most bullet types
Free Crits for Rmb
Get out of jail free card if you DO take damage
65 damage on every hit, non crit
Free healing
235 health (more than a soldier)
Insane movement via trimping
More speed than a scout when walking
"b-b-b-bb-b-b-b--b-bbbut melee"
@@nutellapancakes3244 Melee, jank ass hit registration, no resistance against the most common damage type in the game (FUCKING BULLETS), countered by the existence of a pyro's right click...are you high or what? there's a reason there aren't highlander demoknights dumbass lmao
As someone with shite aim, I did appreciate the Bazaar Bargain as a training wheels weapon, though I'm sad to realize now that those training wheels had to come at the cost of balance. I've seen a great suggestion around the comments saying that a downside of the weapon could be that charge doesn't affect damage on body shots, though honestly fighting Sniper is frustrating enough that that seems like it might be good as a universal change to sniper rifles and perhaps another suggestion of losing heads on misses would fit better. They at least sound good on paper, a Sniper main would have a more informed say in the matter.
Also, it's a bit off-topic, and I'm unsure if you'll see this FSOAS, but since you're doing more videos of good weapons you appreciate, I just want to say I would very much appreciate a video discussing the Ambassador. Spy is my least played class because his play style is particularly stressful for me (and melee/backstabbing is kind of a frustrating crapshoot for my internet connection) so trying to ease myself into it with a weapon that sounds as though it sidegrades him into something that rewards more traditional deathmatch skill is appealing, but many things I've heard including a video from a Woolen Sleevelet documenting its effectiveness against stock make it sound as though one would be handicapping themselves for using it, only able to just barely match stock at the cost of requiring extreme skillful use. So uh, yes, especially considering your Scottish Resistance video I'm very interested in your reasoning for considering the Ambassador a good weapon.
Thanks for this by the way, these videos almost singlehandedly are what's keeping me interested in playing TF2, even with the bots.
Try going to a Hightower server with the Deadringer, Spy-Cicle and the Amby and practice, don't bother with backstabs, use the DR to escape and come back after getting health and use the Spy-Cicle to get away from Pyros
Basically, just practice using it, it's worth it if you aren't that good with backstabs (though if you are, L'Etranger all the way)
I know I've been in TF2 for a long time when I'm all confused thinking "but if you miss or bodyshot it resets all your heads" but apparently Valve got rid of that at some point. That's kinda ridiculous.
I appreciate that little montage in the middle just showing how crazy that is :)
Another idea for the bazaar bargain being rebalanced is decreasing the charge speed ramp up and cap, and increasing the damage penalty, but also giving it a clip that increases with each headshot. Essentially, you don’t have to unscope, and you can rapid fire headshots, even if they individually have to charge. Maybe cap it at 4-5 bullets a clip, or something, and add another downside, like increased reload time (you have to load more bullets).
0:44 I am at the "Wait, clicking on the head does more damage?" phase so I always use the machina over the bazaar bargain
I use the liquidator's lid but, because I hate sitting in 1 place the entire match, I use a SMG (or jarate) with a melee
Just a bit of disagreement, the damage penalty on diamondback is substantial for non-god players. You whiff the medic running around, you miss your airshots, you overflick, and poof, you no longer have a get-out-jail-free card and now is holding a peashooter.
And mostly when you run out of crits is mid-engagement, which most of the time leaves you to almost impossible situation to get out of.
Edit:Another disagreement, the eyelander snowballs hard on specific circumstances, or easier to say, countered on common circumstances. An aware team that groups up, a feisty scout, or a knockback attacks, which is common. If the escape with the shield is unfun, just have a rocket or a pill or a sentry waiting for a charging demoknight; he cant kill you from afar, and your shots could outrange him. If a demoknight escapes, then you kill him the moment he comes back. BUT i do agree transferring heads to switch from shield to sticky and grenade launcher just gives him uncontested reign.
Yeah pubs....don't do any of that.
Just a team that isnt blind. Or not attacking team. I guess aware was a bar too high lol but yeah
In pubs, seeing a sniper that lays past 2 headshots is rare. That’s probably why most people don’t complain about this gun. The average player doesn’t have the self preservation to actually start seeing the benefit of it.
4:34 that poor baby engie
ah yes ticky spam where you cant aim with your primary so you abuse the secondary weapon that is a straight upgrade
Fish, considering that intro, I feel like you bring up how overpowered the Vaccinator is almost as much as the scorch shot. As somebody who spreads heals very evenly as Medic, I personally don't think it's overpowered, and I can't think of anyone else who thinks the Vaccinator is overpowered, but I'm wondering why you do. Perhaps in the foreseeable future (not now obviously, for your health), you could make a video about the vaccinator in the same way you talked about the scorch shot, stock sniper, and this?
I don't think I'd use the word "overpowered" to describe the Vaccinator anymore, but I do absolutely think it's imbalanced and awful to fight. The main reason being the disposability of the Ubers, and how getting healed by a Vacc Medic at all puts you at an immediate disadvantage even more than if they were being healed by any other Medigun. The Vaccinator basically requires your team to have organization in order to overwhelm the Medic, and in pubs that only seems to be easy to find on the team fighting against me. On paper, damage type resistance isn't a bad idea, but the design of the game says otherwise since the majority of classes only deal one damage type outside of their melee. The only exceptions are Soldier, who often uses non-shotgun secondaries like the Gunboats, Pyro, who often uses non-shotgun secondaries like the flare guns, and a level 3 Sentry, which is I think the only thing keeping the Vaccinator from being overpowered because it means it sucks ass at pushing past parked buses. If you do manage to get past the Sentry though, you and your patient can cap while you're ubered which isn't even a little bit infuriating. (It is immensely infuriating.) Basically, having a Medic heal you is already an inherent advantage against other players, and giving that Medic the ability to completely shut out your one damage type at effectively no cost to himself is complete bullshit to fight. Me needing to hope that a Pyro or Demo shoots at the Medic so he might just switch resistances isn't fun. Again, I don't think it's overpowered, but if you made me choose to fight a team with a Scorch Shot Pyro who can actually hit directs and a Vaccinator Medic that can properly cycle resistances, I'd need a few minutes to think about it.
Hell, in the current bot crisis, I feel like I have to run the vaccinator most of the time. The moment I die to a spinning sniper and headshot icons flood the killfeed, the vaccinator comes out.
In the hands of the average pub medic, the vacc isn't a big deal. It takes reflexes and good game sense to play a vacc effectively since you're constantly needing to preemptively pop bubbles and react to incoming damage.
Put the vacc in the hands of a competent player that knows how to pop bubbles at the right time and hit their crossbow arrows, a vacc medic and their heal target becomes incredibly hard to kill. It's pretty unfun to play against a good vacc medic combo, since they can gain bubbles very quickly and thus can stay in the front soaking up all your team's combined damage for extended periods of time. 8 seconds of invulnerability or guaranteed triple damage may be good, but a damage class and a pocket medic that is always healthy is way stronger.
@@fishstickonastick-gaming I'd like to point out that Pyro afterburn degrades Vac shields, which even allows crits to pass through it. Pyro wm1ing into the medic has an inherent advantage over any other class, and it makes Vac a much less effective counter to Phlogs.
@@kerbonaut2059 quick note : the afterburn debuff stuff isn't in the scorch shot thank god , the debuff applies in flamethrower afterburn (exept for the dragons) and the sfv , so ye those weapons are the only pyro weapons that have the damage resist reduction and healing reduction
"TF2 on the whole is a pretty well-balanced game"
not even 5 seconds into the video and you already lost me
Also, people have been complaining about Snipers being broken and overpowered long before UA-camrs gave their thoughts on the matter.
He is a sniper main, he hates everything that affects him, like the scorch shot (wich is op and needs a nerf/rework) and is the only way to stop a sniper for a extra seconds more that the other flares.
The reason I think that the Bazaar Bargain isn't used more often is the exact same reason the rifle doesn't have a downside, quick scoping is just too powerful for charge speed to matter. The increased charge speed can be really nice but even at double the speed why would you charge up a shot instead of just quick scoping them twice. For people that play sniper a lot I imagine that the charge speed isn't a factor because quick scoping can kill people almost as quickly while still giving the sniper some awareness and mobility. And for people that don't play sniper as often keeping more than 2 heads is probably really difficult and they just feel like they are decreasing charge speed for nothing.
6:51 for a second I thought it said it doesn't need to charge, and I thought like snowball cooldown (between snowballs, also yes this is the official term now) or something)
I messed up the brackets
1:19
No one gonna talk about how almost perfectly smooth that transition from first to third person was
3:41 demo mains attempting to pull a semi-reasonable explanation as to why sticky spam is a good game mechanic out of their ass
A good sniper who uses this weapon is honestly scary to fight against.
Even more when he is using the razorback
@@leonardo9259 ngl imo I find the razor back sorta useless and much prefer using an smg
@@s.k4713 i dont wanna be rude but I didnt ask nor I care
@@leonardo9259 ah ok then
I main sniper and I've been abusing this weapon for a while. Even though I'd hate to see it get a nerf because it's so much fun, it would also kinda deserve it.
11:49 i love the guy that noticed that it's fishstickonastick
Yooo I just realized I was the scout you killed at 11:43
Why not just go back to its old behavior rather than a damage nerf?
If you hit a bodyshot, you lose one of your counted headshots.
If you miss, you go back to 0 and have to start from -50% charge rate again.
If you can land your shots, it's a snowball.
If you slip up, you start over.
Then I guess just stop it from going past 6 for counted headshots so that you can't "store" bodyshots.
That sounds a bit TOO punishing, tbh. I'd go with losing one head (maybe two?) on a miss and not losing (or gaining) any heads on a body shot, but keeping the six head cap so that you can't get too comfortable.
13:24 lmao the kunai isn't a strait upgrade. It's a very good sidegrade, not the same. It's not 24/7 viable nor is it consistent. Consistency is the most important thing as a spy. The whole point of playing this class, getting consistant picks
high risk, high reward. you can easily keep fighting or make getaways under fire, but pretty much anything will kill you until you get that backstab. even cloaking does not help much if you find yourself between a soldier and his target
@@Underworlder5 it still doesn't make it a straight umgrade to the stock knife
are hard snowballs just snowballs with rocks in them?
This is exactly what i think, put into a neat video very well. I don't use the BB because i play on higher-skilled servers where you can't easily get many heads before dying and since theres always a sniper just as good as me on the opposite team which often leads to rolling a dice on who gets the shot first and losing your heads. Stock is just more comfortable to use and can be useful straight out of the spawn gates. I do agree that in mixed-skilled pubs yeah the BB is a straight upgrade.
Also stock looks and sounds better don't @ me
which is exactly why there isn't any HL whitelist that bans it
The end music is so relaxing. Like the kind of music you can just sit back on a cooler summer day and have a beer to
Honestly the whole eyelander portion isn't too bad. As a demo main with over 1000 hours (I just put this here to make my point more "valid" because thats how it works) I really like the idea of earning heads and being able to switch out with Shields and explosive weapons. I believe if they just decreased the speed and health for a normal demo, this could be a really fun option to play and fight against. I know not a lot of people would agree with me, especially with how devastating stickies are, but its still really cool to pull off
as a nerf, what about reverting to the point the Sniper loses one of the bargain's collected heads upon miss, like the weapon's original design?
That means he has to actually try much harder at keeping his snowball effect up, 1 miss = 1 head lost so it's a snowball that consistently goes up and down, after all, even the most perfect sniper will miss a head, unless they're a bot maybe.
30 killstreaks don't count when you are pocket healed
And get uber, and a lot of random crits
And get uber, and a lot of random crits
And sticky spam brainless nest engineers and their rat team hiding in there with them. You could do this with a pain train equipped.
One way to help balance the bazaar bargain is to is to reduce the scope zoom since the "scope" is basically a magnifying glass that would kinda make sense
Upsides: fast charge with headshots
Downsides: you need to be good
0:18 can someone give their take on why the natascha is lumped with weapons that are unfun to fight against? everytime I've used it people barely die due to:
- having the second slowest rev time meaning foes can take cover and play corners without any harm and THE lowest DPS of any minigun, giving the enemy more time to kill you
- slowdown is not only bugged (you can tap left and right movement keys to negate it) but it doesn't help at all when any other minigun could've killed sooner, the slowdown means you have to focus your attention on one person for longer, giving other enemies the jump on you
so why do people hate fighting against it when it does fuck-all compared to stock or tomislav???
Its still insanely annoying when some dipshit heavy make you slower than him across the map when you have scout 1v1
3:31 do that exact method , then rent 2 pocket medics one with kritz and one vac... BOOM! you got something that is arguably worse than scorch shot
Edit : please dont do that
Soooo... the ritual for summoning satan?
@@garagara4849 no , even satan was afraid of this kind of shit
@@garagara4849 oh wait i forgot to mention , to make yourself a lot more evil use some good ol reliable binds
Binds might include :
- "Sticky and pipe spamming takes skill"
- "Ur just mad cus ur bad lol"
- "My loadout is perfectly balanced"
- "Haha Rick May Bad"
- "Bots are healthy for the game"
And maybe add weapon names like :
- Pipe -> D3m0n$$$!4y3r
Desc : U suck i king
- Sticky -> (Any racist slurs)
Desc : (Every swear words in the english lexicon)
- Eyelander -> Dead Game
Desc : TF2 Ripped off Overwatch
To top it all of use Dream fanart or a fursona pfp and name yourself "QueenBelleDelphineUwU"
@@JrdnKritz Ah yes, the ultimate skill loadout
I remember once doing a 40 kill streak in a new player server (2fort) with an eyelander loadout...
I wonder if it could've been better with switching out now for this loadout, I had a friend with me (not pocketing me) and he could've switched to vaccinator to pocket
...On second thought, I just can't help but imagine the horror the other team would've felt. Though it'd be... interesting?
Perhaps that's the worst word I could have chosen haha it would be HORRIBLE both for me and the enemy 'cause I'd feel way too bad
...and then I try this and get face-stabbed by a ghibus spy yay
@@garagara4849 lol
5:55 you can feel that betrayal
11:58 somebody recognized him in chat
That surprise slice at 4:35 made me laugh way more than it should have
This feels so much like a rant video rather than a well constructed criticism of the weapon
Good video, Fish!
Though, I was honestly happy people didn’t recognize the bazaar bargain more than they do now. Cause as you said “quickscoping is already so good and why bother switching off stock.”
Which is an extra testament to the power of sniper. Where “why even switch off stock when I’m already accessing this much damage?” But now the masses have been taught the power of faster charges for body shots and more damaging snowballing quickscopes.
3:38 "... Step aside V, don't be slow..." is the only time a Character is directly referred to in the whole OST
THE BOULDER appreciates that one of your aliases is a ATLA reference.
I appreciate the use of Hades music. You have good taste.