So, are any of these safe?
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- Опубліковано 12 вер 2024
- Are any personal anchors safe to fall hard onto them? Or will they all break your back? What are the most convenient ones out there? Skinnier ropes feel easier to move up and down but they slip so much they actually gave us harder falls. We recommend going with the ropes the manufacturers provided with the devices. We do sell rope by the foot for the diy-ers out there. hownot2.com/co...
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I am surprised. Those were fantastic numbers. Not comfortable. But not bone breaking either. And if I can walk away from a factor 2 fall feeling uncomfortable.... I am taking that as a win.
Seeing all of the drop tests peaking pretty consistently around 5kn makes me think that the manufacturers probably thought about the personal anchors more than i previously considered.
Agreed. Although, I am curious what kind of forces the Kong Slyde would generate if it didn't have a fresh knot. If you've used it as a personal anchor multiple times, and the knot has set over repeated use, would the forces be significantly higher? I know the Purcell Prusik video showed higher forces after multiple drops, up to 8kn. I'm curious if the Slyde behaves the same way.
@@mitchcaudill1434 Which knot do you mean for the Slyde example? The stopper knot at the end?
I’d be really interested if you’d expand this to positioners in general. Stuff like the Grillon, the zig zag, the ART 2. It would be useful for us folks who do this at work and need everything all ANSI rated.
Yep, and can we double some of them up as well? I tend to always have redundancy, preferably two yates are what I generally work with.
This seems less useful tbh, you are legally required to use this stuff and it will often be provided by your employer, even if you know better it doesn't really change anything. Climbing on the otherhand is the wild west by comparison.
@@sebastianflynn1746 I'm in the completely climbing category on this. And mostly curious about the effect of redundancy when it comes to factor two falls on positioners used as PASes. Esp. the Yates Adj Daisy Straps. Looks like the one in the video could handle about 9KN. Which I think would honestly be hard as hell to generate IRL. Even so I'd love to see if a couple of them used together, which is the way I use them, would handle that drop.
@sebastianflynn1746 I am actually curious whether you can use personal safety equipment in addition to the stuff that should be provided by the employer. EG let's say your employer says to climb a radio tower with nothing but a couple of carabiners as your anchor, are you allowed to bring your better anchor and double or even triple clip in if you want?
Also some arborist positioning lanyards like the notch glide rope grab would make great tests
Super nice video, thank you!
I got a bit curious though.
The Petzl Evolv Adjust has two adjustable connection points and is, as far as I know, specifically developed for aid climbing (a positioning device). Petzl has also other personal anchors, for "normal" climbing, I.e.: Connect/Dual Connect. As I gather, the main difference lies on the different diameter of the ropes installed. Funnily enough: those "personal anchors" (Evolv Adjust being NOT one!) are in different places on Petzl's website.
I would be happy to see a comparison between these two gears from Petzl (Connect and Dual Connect being basically the same), as well as a video on the loop-chains and daisy-chains - which I see being used as a personal anchor more often than I could wish for.
Once again, thank you very much for the always instructive videos!!!
Via ferrata sets (fun fact: you can have a fall factor of 4 and possibly more on a via ferrata) used to have friction based shock absorbers (similar to the Kong Sylde) a long time ago. These have been phased out, as they are considered to be too unreliable. Sometimes, they don't slide at all and at other times (especially when wet), they slide too easily. If you are still using one of these, please stop doing so immediately and get a new one with a tearing shock absorber.
Every via ferrata set on the market today has a tearing shock absorber (similar to a Screamer), as this was determined to be the only mechanism that reliably doesn't kill you on a factor 4 fall. It's still going to hurt a lot and you'll likely need to be carried out by the mountain rescue though.
One design issue in those old ferrata sets is that they rely on a certain combination of rope and device. Which may be the case when the set is brand new but during use it will get dirty, it ages and a wet rope has a totally different friction. Also, some people were just pulling the rope back after a fall instead of replacing the set.
what about kong kisa?
@@brandolb9942 Yeah, that's approximately what the Kisa tries to do. Though Kong themselves says they cant fully gurantee that it always works.
@@brandolb9942 I am surprised that this is still sold. It is definitely not recommended anymore. However, I am also pretty sure that this does not pass the current norms for ferrata sets because they sell it without the rope and carabiner, so explicitly not as a ferrata set. Which adds the additional problem that the user may thread this plate incorrectly, use an inappropriate carabiner or connect those with an inappropriate way.
Modern ferrata sets have come a long way, especially for light-weight and medium-weight persons.
For those wondering how a fall factor of greater than 2 is even possible, imagine a vertical railing which has catches every 5 metres or so. Even if you fall at the very top of that, your 1m safety will slide all the way down the railing before catching, which means your centre of mass could have fallen 7m for a fall factor 7 fall.
I use the Petzl one as a personal anchor, I didn’t know it slipped under load. Very interesting, thanks for the video!
I think the slipping actually helps with keeping the forces down. I think if it didn't slip the forces would've been higher
I also would've loved to see tests where the personal anchor was all the way extended and see the forces where it could not slip. Would be very interesting I think
Yes the friction of sliding dissipates the drop force. It's hard to say if that's significant. How many KN of friction can you really make with a foot of rope?
@@pepperypeppers2755 see the cow's tail episode!
how much energy it absorbs is given by [Work = Force * displacement]
I think you are correct in your assessment.
Sweet content Ryan. You should test a blakes hitch in a closed loop moving rope system. Can use whatever length you want and suck it all the way in unlike purcell. Can also release under tention and all you need is rope and a carabiner. Often used for tree work but I use it for rigging highlines. I've even rappelled off a highline and ascended back up using this method.
Would love to see more diameters/ropes tested for the connect adjust the new edelrid slide thing
Would love to see the metolius dynamic pas or daisy , edelrid switch, and Beal dynamic sling tested. Those are my top 3 favorites/ recommendations.
FYI edelrid has a video of a ff2 on the switch . They’re the only manufacturer who published a ff2🧐
Yes, please test personal anchors that state they are designed to take falls like the Metolius Dynamic PAS.
I just got the Edelrid Switch adjust which I can release while weighted. I'd be curious to see that in the comparison. I only compared it to a Petzl Connect Adjust in person but I'm a fan. I just got done with a weekend of multi pitch and it also worked well for rap transitions. It does take a little bit to get used to extending and shortening it.
I was going to make the same suggestion. I also struggle to get it to extend smoothly (consistently) but it’s also replaced my Connect Adjust
I also was gonna suggest the Edelrid Switch Adjust, since it seems a little bit nicer to use than the Petzl device from my quite limited usage so far.
Switch is the only one with a ff2 test published
I am always extremely impressed with all of your work. I’ve been climbing 45 years now and I am always impressed with what you guys do. Very happy with your experiments. Good knowledge. Tree climbing.
Yates Screamers look really interesting.
I will enjoy the tests.
Thank you for an interesting life saving channel.
also show us how girth hitched slings compare to those adjustable anchors in the drop tower, because people also use those as personal anchors.
The perfect personal anchor: two grigris
Why not three?
Isn't that what a Grillon is basically?
I would say Grillon is better, slides less
I prefer to use the Silent Partner as a PAS.
the spring in a grigri can cause it to slip when brake strand is not held. grillon or madrock safeguard is better suited
I really appreciate the HN2 scale: Somewhere between "Super good enough" and "YOU will break before this does." Also good to know that we now have the soundbite to get Bobby canceled. 😉
I use Edelrid 8.2mm Starling Protect Pro Dry ( a half/twin rope ) in the Petzl Connect Adjust. It is buttery smooth to adjust. I'm always careful to never climb above personal anchors and keep slack to a minimum. So I'm pretty comfy with its pros and cons.
This video was soooo satisfying and enjoyable….love the work you’re doing
Finally! Thank you!
My first thought also!Now i wait for the Kong Kisa
Nice one!
I was waiting for you to put these PAS in the press and see at how many KN they broke WITH the stopper knot on
Rock Empire PIP lanyard
8 mm rope and you lower under load! Intrest to see test on.
On multi-pitch climbs I always clove hitch the climbing rope from my harness into a locker on the anchor. It always amazed me how resistant my sport climbing partners were to doing this. It's dynamic, adjustable, and requires only a extra locker, which you're bound to have anyway.
Just gotta swing leads. A partner who can’t lead the next pitch is going to cause problems.
@@JasonMinahan nah. I often did all the leading. It's not much of a problem. Coil the rope over the section of rope from your harness to the anchor. When your partner ties into the anchor, flip the coils over onto the section of rope from them to the anchor. If you stack the coils well. It's super easy.
Many of my partners do this and it takes longer, damages your ropes over time and if you for what ever reason do not switch lead it gets a bit more complicated. And then you also have to use something different (possible unsafe) for abseiling
would be really cool to see a comparison of the sterling chain reactor and Metolius dynamic daisy chain. There are a few reasons that I prefer the chain link style PAS's so would be interesting to see how they stand up
I’ve been using a Beal Dynaconnexion for years as an anchor connection (when I can’t use the rope) and especially as a repel extender/anchor for multi-pitch repels (it’s designed for that). I’d love to see it tested.
Omg Ryan its here thank you so much. I've been so excited and insistent on you uploading this.
I’ve been waiting for this video for ages, thanks a lot!
Really interesting video! Though the Petzl Evolv Adjust, to my knowledge, is not PPE as it has a thiner rope and is intended as an aid climbing positioning device. The Petzl Adjust and its variants are PPE (thicker rope, shorter length). But it's interesting to see nonetheless because I personally use the Evolv Adjust as PPE when aid climbing (I clip both and call it super good enough).
Interesting video, one major oversight though. The petzl Evolve adjust is NOT a personal anchor system according to petzl, it is also a positioning device. the other petzl adjusts are and come with a thicker rope to match that as well. (though this kinda shows that the evolve is pretty good)
I accidentally purchased the Evolve Adjust and have been researching using a different dynamic rope to make something similar to the Kong Slyde(it does not come with any rope). But since the test results were just about ideal, I think I am going to wait for a few more tests to be done and potentially use it as my PAS anyways. I am very confused as to why they didn't use the same rope for all three in the Petzl Adjust line (I read and viewed videos where people have said that was the reason why Evolve is not supposed to be used as a PAS; though, I am not sure that there is actually smaller diameter rope on the Evolve because I have not seen anything definitive).
I swapped out the rope used on a petzl adjust with 6mm purline. Would be curious to see how something super skinny performs. Definitely drew inspiration from Colin Haley. I find so long as you understand the limitations of the system and to only apply static loads, it adjusts and locks beautifully!
The low bulk factor was my biggest appeal.
I want to know if the Evolve can be used as is for my PAS, or what would be ideas for best way to reconfigure. I noticed the guy from Avant when he is actually demoing on a route in later half of "How do you climb by yourself... SAFELY???" is using at least the locking part of the Petzl Adjust system as part of his PAS (likely having changed the rope)
Can’t wait for the screamer testing!
Thanks for this video! It's very importaint to divide personal anchors and positioning tools.
Would love to see a break test on the rock empire PIP I think the rope is fine, but the “atc” part is so much thinner than the petzel and camp that I worry it’s the weak point.
I got one and really like it. But the metal part makes me nervous too. I’m even thinking about switching back to the petzl because of it.
I’m new to this type of gear and use my gear for saddle hunting. It’s very interesting.
You should test arborist climbing lines in a variety of tests. Straight pull, fall forces and termination point tests I’d love to see that as a climber and an arborist!
Can you test the petzl connect with alternative ropes ? 😊
Great question!!!! I totally agree, and I would ultimately like to know if I can actually "safely" use the Evolve as a PAS. I am confused as to why they didn't use the same rope for all three in the Petzl Adjust line (I read and viewed videos where people have said that was the reason why Evolve is not supposed to be used as a PAS; though, I am not sure that there is actually smaller diameter rope on the Evolve because I have not seen anything definitive). Clearly, the tests done were quite hopeful, but I would like to know more....
11:58 while in the tower industry, I was taught that the shock absorber is supposed to assist in preventing hard shock injuries (lessening shock loads on the body).
I have both heard of and seen plenty of people using the petzl evolv adjust system with a much larger variety of cords even than you tested here, including 8mm and 7mm nylon accessory cord, 5.9mm nylon sheath, aramid core power cord and 5.5 mm nylon sheath, dyneema cord tech cord. I am particularly curious if the skinnier ones would allow for any reduction in impact force by slipping and/or if the nylon sheath would just desheath super easily under a shock load. I am also curious if carabiners with different cross sections (larger/smaller, sharper/rounder) would affect this. These systems are all quite popular for Yosemite wall and speed wall climbing and Andy Kirkpatrick has quite an extensive but fairly cautious write up about it in his book Higher Education.
Thank you for the reference, I have been searching for more info about using/ altering the Evolv. Ryan was just getting started on that one....
My preference is double strands of dynamic rope, fig8 on bight clipped to anchor and a 3 or 4 wrap Knut prusik tied with E2E 10mm treehog sewn cord. Two strands gives you twice the rope absorbsion. The knut is easiest to adjust and I prefer to using metal grabs.
Would love to see the Climbing Technology Tuner 1 being tested. I can't find anyone doing some tests on it:'(
Great vid! Would have loved to see what would the forces have been with thouse ropes tied directly, to see the reduction caused by the slippage
What do you mean? This is exactly how these products are designed to be used.
@@ionstorm66 well I want to compare how much these devices reduce the force of falls, so tie ropes figure 8 to figure 8 vs having the adjust device. For instance with the experiments of the kong, use the ropes 8 to 8 to see if they break and forces
For shock absorbers, would be amazing if you could test the Kong Kisa, keen to use this for larger runout sections with dodgy protections etc.
8:25 actually happened to me once when using it as a rappel extension!
Would be interesting to use the "profesional" version of the petzl pas. The working principle is the same but the part you twist is bigger making it easyer to release under load.
Interesting!
Ok cool. So don't use a motorcycle tie down for a fall protection device! 😆 I would love to see you guys test some of the industrial standard rope grab fall arrest devices for rope access work. Be interesting to see your take on it. Thanks for the video!
Looks like you have a Yates Zipper Screamer in the video. The Standard Screamer might be a better option (cheaper, less bulk, and the Zippers shock absorption is probably overkill, maybe?). The Shorty Screamer is definitely the one that is commonly used in conjunction with an adjustable lanyard/daisy and Yates even makes some products with a Shorty Screamer attached to different tethering devices (probably marketed for rope access, work at height, or the military).
Would be stoked to see some screamers attached to adjustable lanyards/daisys get some drop testing! Although it’s clearly not recommended for such use (and is the weakest by far of the screamers) it would be fun to see a Scream Aid + adjustable lanyard/daisy subjected to a drop test for…science.
Been wanting this for so long. If you do make a follow-up, I'd be super interested in the Petzl Grillon, which I use as a personal anchor all the time for Rescue Training and work positioning.
11:58 In Germany we call it Bandfalldämper google translate it " tape energy absorber " But if you translate it word by word it would be " tape fall damper ". i wonder why there are always so manny different names for the same thing.
I would love to see the Metolius dynamic PAS tested.
I have been considering making my own personal lanyard arborist style because I like the adjuster where I can always reach it easily.
This would be a 5' to 8' piece of dynamic double dry ripe and an eye-to-eye prissik, micro pulley and carabiner. Would be cool to see you dynamic test that. Also I prefer to use a distel hitch on all my ropes over the VT hitch.
You can try out the edelrid personal anchor. I find it is quite easy to realise under load. I have to add ive not tested it while being fully suspended in it.
Hey Ryan, loving your content. I've experimented with doing a purcell out of 120cm slings for personal anchors. Dyneema or Aramid since Nylon's a bit too bulky. Would that be something you could test?
Thanks for the great video! Could you please experiment with different ropes in the petzl connect/evolv adjust in a similar way as the video about re slinging cams? Thanks!
Yes, great question. Ryan, please let us know if we can use the Evolve "safely" as our PAS.
Would be interested to see the petzl with different ropes used since this also seems to be popular. Including some high tech cord please would be so nice to see🙏
Yes, please!!!!
Everyone calls me a Gumby. But I friggin love my connection adjust.
You should test the kong kisa in comparison to other shock absorbers like the yates screamer, that will be helpful to see where it stands in terms of shock absorption.
I'm really anxious to see the results of the same exact test with screamers. I'm curious as to how much fall force a screamer will reduce, if any.
That may be a "Positioning Device" but when you are in a jam, you use what you have on you, and its better to have safe devices on you rather than a guillotine strap. Its like taking a cheap spare rope because its spare so you bought cheap. Now I am not a climber, but I have been involved in equipment design for the industry and Cal Fire. - My biggest concern, fear, stress, is if someone were to die from a design I did. So if I cant design a product thats safe even when misused by a reasonable person, it doesn't get released.
Ah love it. Thanks for making this one!
Thanks Ryan. Great informative video.
Many anchoring and other rope management devices devices have bend radiuses way below optimal - they are "never" going to optimally load all fibres in any rope....
(This includes nearly all descender systems, belay and carabiners.)
Another awesome video with practical data. I work with a local SAR team and in my search for reasonably priced gear I found this company, named "Fusion". Have you any experience with their hard or soft gear? Would you consider testing it?
I am not a climber. I will never be a climber. Nonetheless, I really enjoy seeing your tests. (I even sent money.) One thing that fascinates me is how much one needs to know to be safe while climbing and how hard it seems to be to get that knowledge.
I feel like I missed something but....what happened to the drop tower? Why are these drop tests happening in a tree in so many of these?
I also thought that... so much time and money poured into the drop tower and now they are up in the trees?
He moved to Seattle
@@SENNESME5 pfff ok. that makes sense, I guess.
I'm in Seattle now and no longer on my welding friend's property. I could not have made this without that. It does not look like I used the other one as much because drop tests are 100x more work than the footage shown whereas a slow pull is about 5x work off camera as what is shown. It was less than $100 per drop test for the cost of that drop tower which is cheaper than any other drop test would have cost me if in theory, I could find places that would have let me do what I did out there. I can still use that tower, but traveling to CA to do it is time/cost-prohibitive. I made a video about how I use this one ua-cam.com/video/XUIDeXxert0/v-deo.html
Around the 3:33 mark you said there was about a 'metric foot' of tail on the rope. What the hell is a metric foot, is that just a slang term? I also considered whether you were just saying that for illustrative purposes, but since I consider you a source of good info... is this a real term? Thx!
A metric foot is about twelve metric inches
Great testing. Thanks. Well done
CT make a PAS called the Tuner which I'd love to see the results on!
Thank you so much for that video!
I use the "Petzl Dual Connect Vario" with an overhand knot that I do NOT untie. For that reason the knot is super tight because I used that PA a lot.
Now I'm wondering whether this knot significantly affects the strength. What do you think?
The knot is in the perfect position. That is the reason I do not want to untie. I also find the length of the fixed rope on the "Petzl Dual Connect Adjust" too long.
Did you watch his recent belay loop video? probably some good info there, likely
@@jamesdouglaswhiteYes, I saw that. However, I am worried about the knot INSIDE the PA itself. I always undo the anchor hitch for attaching the PA to the climbing harness.
I'm curious about the Petzl evolve adjust as their website says it shouldn't be used as a personal anchor, but only as a positioning device for aid climbing, with the connect adjust used for a personal anchor instead. Still super good enough? Petzl don't (to my knowledge) make a dual adjustable connect adjust
There's a dual connect adjust but only one side is adjustable
Yes, I like the Evolv but I want to use it as PAS not just aid-climbing.
Bd have dropped an adjustable fif that also takes a biner, would love to see this tested.
I have friends that climb with a sling girth hitched to their belay loop, or both upper and lower tie in's. It would be interesting to see that tested on the drop tower to see if the sling broke, or the harness. Either way result would be broken back lol, but still would be interesting to know
I know they say not to replace the ropes, but... *In theory* it should be fine, right? Metal has a longer lifetime than textile, as long as you're using the same diameter, and using the right knots, is it super good enough? It just feels wasteful to throw away perfectly good metal
Would have liked to see the Edelrid Adjust too
To bad you didnt test edelrid switch adjust.. But I guess as the numbers were so similar it would be also in this ballpark.
I'm not sure if you've tested it before but I'd really like to see a clove hitch pulled on your machine thingy
I planning to use one of this kind for ski mountaineering, but with the Petzl Nano traxion cause I'm carrying it for rescue. I would like to see it tested to see at which KN its braking down
Nice tests! What scenario are we imagining here? When would we be above our anchor on vertical terrain? Seems like a theoretical scenario.
Lets say that you are arriving at a bolted anchor from above and need to get down to it in order to rappel from it. Happens all the time here. So you reach down and attach your PAS to the bolted anchor and start to climb down to the anchor.
But whops, you fell. You are now falling from above the anchor, only attached to your PAS.
In this case it is safer to make a temporary anchor. rappel down to the bolted anchor and again start from there. But I would lie if I said I had not downclimbed to reach an anchor.
No daisy chain test? Not the link chain style the sewn pocket style where hopefully the ‘2kn’ mini bar tacks might break to absorb force. Obviously shortened correctly and not just clipped a pocket
I waffle between my Kong and prucell and it looks like maybe just don't fall 😬
Ryan - with the Joker 9.1, which is at the upper end of the recommended diameter for the Kong Slide, can you say how it performed after a year or so of use - to the point where it becomes fuzzy? I have a Slide with 9mm installed, and it's become more and more difficult to adjust...wondering if the Joker exhibits similar issues or whether there's an 8mm joker available?
wait what about the most commonly used metolius PAS or BD's identical copy? is that coming soon?
I gotta say, "Your vid's are super good enough."
Didn't try the edelrid adjust 😢, but really good video though.
Id love to see what an old sling on a cam with a DIY double fisherman in addition would do!
PAS wise, I just have the ole dyneex sling from BD with some knots tide in it. I dont ever climb above it, but whats the limitation falling on a wide 180cm dynex sling?
Ok, ok fine, I'll ask ...how do you know? 😜 Thanks for the video, helps a lot!
What if you factor 2'd on two personal anchors? Would it be better, or worse?
You would double the force and half the slippage. Double force in this case is 10KN. So... your harness might break before they start to slip.
Do NOT recommend.
Kong kisa, kong kisa. Now say it with me,, Kong kisa
What would you recommend for TRS and positioning yourself to tie your rope to gear or bolts (protecting from edges)
Petzel Gillian or art positioner.
Switch pro adjust 👌
hey! nice video!
Have you tested the CT tuner lanyard?
How about trying a hangmans knot?
Did the girth hitch (3:31) slip any ?
Kong Kisa
Can you test the rock empire PIP?
What is that drill powered capstan winch??
Day 2 of asking for flying bowline/ tugboat bowline break test 🙂
Ryan... Do you have the force data for the drop tests? What mass were you dropping? and by the looks was it circa FF2? (esp. Interested in the connect)
Dummy is 160 lbs
Was expecting to see the multi chain
Great video!! thanks!
Maybe I missed it, but how heavy were the weights in the drop-tree?
160lbs
72kg
Someone please what is the difference between petzl connect adjust and petzl evolv adjust?