They say clipping it like this will kill you
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- Опубліковано 5 лип 2024
- Random break tests with / alpinesavvy
BFKS, bowlines on a bight, daisy chains and the Connecticut Hitch
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00:00 Bunny ears anchor
03:32 Daisy Chain
06:00 Ring load a bowline on a bight
06:59 Tailless BFK anchor
11:35 Connecticut Hitch
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deeper dive!
Thanks for answering my question about the bowline on a bight! These videos are good if you have a lot of simple requests to go thru.
Both.
YES
Yes! Mix it. Both great
Everyone who's stressed about anchors should spend a week or so watching a good arborist. You'll either get really confident, or you'll take up painting.
I love when you do videos with guests like John, they're always a wealth of knowledge and experience!! Even though I've never been climbing and probably never will I still enjoy learning something new and I do learn something every time. Thank you for uploading! 👍👍
No Extension vs Extension! Bloody test it!! 😀 I'd love to see just how much shock load you get from a foot of extension in a dynamic system
regardless of breaking forces, in a climbing scenario if the master point drops because of a monster factor 2 fall of the lead climber ripping pieces out, you have serious problems. ie everyone tied to the rope is buying the proverbial farm. Shock loading a compromised anchor with the weight of everyone = No Bueno. The BFK is used to prevent that AND to provide a 'shelf' for potentially self-rescue with.
Thomas Evans tests ("Peak Fall Arrest Force During Simulated 2-Point Multipoint Anchor Limb Failures" SARRR) indicate that without any dynamic rope in the system about 2kN to 2.5kN extra is added. Dynamic rope in the system should substantially reduce this force.
Very helpful to see the bowline on a bight ring-loaded at 6:00. Amazing the knot didn't reduce the sling strength much. Thanks!
The tailless 6mm BFK was super impressive at 28 kg! 🎉❤
28kN, not 28kg. 28kN is weight of 2,800kg or 2.8 tonnes (in Earth gravity). 28kg would be a small child hanging from it. 2.8 tonnes is a medium sized car hanging from it.
@@thomasdalton1508I'd say odds are the person just made a typo...
@@AssafLevyIL Maybe. Or maybe they are American and are confused by metric.
@@thomasdalton1508 I believe that was typo. Based on reading a LOT of comments and interacting with a lot of people, I find American climbers understand the metric system way better than non-americans understand imperial measurements.
@@HowNOT2Of course they do. We do not get taught Imperial. They need to learn a bit of metric to manage in the international life because everyone uses it.
Falling on the aider would be very cool to replicate on the drop tower. Needing consistent loads of 5kn makes me think that it might act abit like a screamer dissipating force.
some back of the envelope math. Each tacking is about 2cm. At 5KN average that gives 100J of energy absorbed.
At 85Kg that's enough to absorb a fall of about 10cm. The human body is squishy though and can absorb quite a lot too. But that's not enough for a screamer.
One day sport climbing I clipped in my PAS at a crux in order to figure it out.... I felt ready to make the move and dynoed toward the ledge. Unfortunately I had forgotten I was still on my PAS and was jerked backwards and had a very short and abrupt factor 2 fall where I actually heard the stitching strain and pop. Thankfully I was just a little sore and embarrassed but immediately tossed that piece as I could never trust it again lol. Interested in seeing any testing you have done with PAS. Nowadays I use an 8mm Purcell prussik for my clip in.
People are sometimes too hung up about shock loading, but it's not the main reason to be worried about extension - a point that often gets lost. Having your belayer suddenly drop a metre while holding a bad fall is a potentially fatal problem.
After watching this, I was curious of the harness belay loop strength. I found a 2014 forum where people were discussing a belay loop being rated at 15kn for 3 minutes continuous, and another at 25kn instant. Its funny what people obsess over. Taking 8kn at the body will result in internal bleeding, spine damage, and broken bones. Any overhead past that is only insurance for worn/damaged equipment and bad rigging technique
This was so helpful as usual! I have wondered about cordelettes and single strands versus multi. Sometimes I tie a clove hitch into one of the outer points just on one end to get the length right and back up with knot. Thanks HowNOT2. So much amazing content! Always!
Shortening with a clove hitch can be a shortcut to weakening that leg; generally, especially now that the strength of a Girth Hitch plus X master point, even in Dyneema, is better understood, and tested, reconsider the whys around making any single arm shorter, versus redistributing the extra across all legs and then making the Girth Master point just a couple inches lower. With few exceptions, any leg feeding to a single point is strongest, in order of: an unknotted sling loop, a sewn single end of a long runner, then a knotted loop, and last a knotted single strand - though that knot will hold far less in Dyneema, than good old nylon.
SIET teaches "STRADS" instead of "SERENE" or "ERNEST". Solid (or Strong) Timely Redundant Angle Distribution Simple. They dropped the "Equalized" and replaced it with "Angle" and "Distribution" because equalization doesn't really stay when the anchor gets loaded, but the angle between strands and distribution of load does stay as the anchor is loaded. Your tests agree with the research they cite for this. They dropped the "No Extension" because it doesn't substantially reduce the strength of an anchor, especially not if there's a decent amount of dynamic rope in the system. They're much more focused on Trad, Alpine, & Ice climbing than sport, so the compromises are different; speed making the anchor matters more often in alpine climbing, and anchors often don't have bolts but rather cams or other placed pro so the weakest point is likely different.
Thanks for the demo. I know you want to show stuff breaking in a dramatic fashion. I enjoy it immensely. It would be great for the audience visual memory to show us first how to properly use the daisy chain with a fifi hook. Teaching counter example is fun but makes for poor learning. Like "I know what NOT to do, but I was never shown what to do properly"-syndrome
I use a 3loop overhand when attaching my 11mm extreme pro to the top of a underground repel every day.
I have used utility cord the same way a few times to get full distances out of my main line.
Glad to know it was still above 24kn.
Let's go! :) what's with the hickey, Ryan?
Right! I saw that and was like, super good enough!
When you get a chance, would love to see the same anchor tests with the sterling 5.4mm V-TX cords.
That video is amazing, testing a whole binch of knots and variations. It's so good for building a good eye ! When you did the bfk test with 6mm I estimated 1.8 times more force than the bunny ears (so 27kN) and when the 28 came up I was pretty proud of my estimation !
For the "bunny ears" anchor. I put clove hitches on the ends (makes them quick and easy to adjust) and use sterling powercord which is rated to 19.7kn. Can you test that? I'd love to see it.
That would be an interesting test. With the Sterling power cord, especially, I think it would be absolutely strong enough for most any recreational climbing situation.
For the bunny ears anchor, I'm more curious in the results of having a singe strand of material on the central point and two strands of 6mm at each outer leg (this requires tying the other tail into the knot like the Tailless BFK (I've always heard it called a Frost knot). Given the centered direction of pull, the majority of the load is on the center leg. By using a single strand of material there, it will stretch more than the 2-strand outer legs and do a better job of distributing the load.
we started doing a tailess BFK but with the 2 outside loops not in the bolt. You rethread the tails in the bolt back to the loops and equalize with truckers hitchs after a bit of tension was put in the system in the center loop of the BFK. Love it for A-Frames. More gear intensive tho. If you ever want test it :).
Dude that sounds like such a good idea! Definitely gonna try that at some point.
can you tell me what BFK means? I am from Germany and we have different expressions :-) Also many thanks to @HowNOT2 for all of your videos!!!
@@quarrinBig Fuc#ing Knot. Basically an overhand knot, tied into or more strands of the rope. It is kind of an American climber slang term. I agree it is not very descriptive or helpful if you have not heard of it before.
@@johngo6283 many thanks! I will include it n my climbing slang! :-)
Gracias por compartir estos valiosos test,❤
Looking at how these broke and what is more likely. 15+kn loads for total failure are an exception + often generated by not setting gear properly rather than catching a fall BUT the daisy chain having to fail 6? (5 or 6) times at 5kn is quite redundant. If you generate that force it's unlikely the climber will be rushing back 4 more times for the same jolt.
I did climb for ages and that 7mm cord you showed near the end is my favourite. I leave it with fig 8 ears tied normally and is simple to use like a loop - just leave both ears on the same 'bina. Gives the option of both anchor styles in one bundle.
For just sport climbing I'd have a nylon sling + BFK. Simple as
"ring tie" never heard it. glad to know! the bowline is meant to be pulled from the standing end and the loop only, obviously! thanks for great video.
This was a cool one, Ryan & Guest!
I would love to see similar anchor tests using 5.9 powerchord, including a loop closed by a double fishermans!
Would love to see the same test done with the Camp Daisy Twist!
I always was under the impression that 7mm cord is the standard size to use for cordelettes. When did 6mm sneak in?
Some people choose to use six mil cord in the snow, climbing, or maybe low angle alpine rock, where a high impact fall is very unlikely. For rock, climbing, in most cases, 7 mm is the general standard.
My problem with the double sliding x is that the slings are right on top of each other so if a rock cuts one it probably cuts the other and then you are gone. One could say the same about the quad but 4 strands would need to be cut and they aren’t exactly on top of each other. Also the hit box is smaller since the knots separate areas so if a leg is cut it’s fine. I don’t generally use a quad but it’s a good comparison here
I should send in my 35 year old FISH daisies. I loved those things.
The CH not slipping at the end was surprising!
Yeah, that tree hitch not slipping was pretty surprising for me as well. Thanks for mentioning that.
Wow the way that bfk broke and almost reloaded the other strands made me feel like I was on the other end of it 👀
I wanted to see that BD daisy at 4:43 broke the same way! You left us hanging on that one.
Just dropped 4 bills at extreme gear. Thanks for all the great content and the laughs! Super good enough??
Another great video . Military had a cliche' 2 is 1 and 1 is NONE ( 2110) . Redundancy !
Nice the Bulin I use on multipitches is actually really strong!
I liked this one. Greetings from Monterrey, México!
Hey @ryan and crew. Industrial gear is supposedly engineered to 5-1 with SWL listed veunf that 1/5th strength, whereas climbing gear typically lists max breaking strength. Maybe you could make a video addressing these differences?
Probably because climbers have no clue how much they load a system falling off, and also don’t need to lift heavy stuff like you would in construction.
Couple of questions about the tail-les BFK:
1) what if the tails point down instead of up? AKA the tails don't also contribute to the master point loop. They point straight down before tying the BFK. I sometimes use the bunny ear anchor from the beginning of the video on one end of a piece of chord and tie the other end into the BFK, so I was wondering.
2) What happens if you accidentally only clip the loops below the BFK that are made by the tail strands? Are they more likely to slip through? I know these are kinda weird questions, but I think it would be interesting to know the answers
Particularly point 1) is not weird - some people who use the tailless tend to have the tails pointing down, giving less material. @HowNOT2 could you pretty please test a BFK with the extra tails down? Asking for a friend....
For the first 6mm cord test, can we break it far lower? That you pulled on it in the best way possible, the system might hold up to 13 to 14kN? Yet can we load it incorrectly and see if its possible to isolate the figure eights by the bolts, which should cause this to break at a lower value.
Would be interested in the strength of your triple anchor with BFK and tails on 7mm and webbing.
can you do a three piece girth hitch anchor with the 6mm cord. I end up using it when pieces are far apart
Could you test the 6mm LIROS max.load black (bts: 2500 daN) in the same configuration?
You know anytime it breaks in an eight that a knot is super good enough
“Oh my” haha
With a Dyneema or Aramide cord with 20kN-ish MBS, the bunny ears anchor should be super good enough.
Yes, I think it is especially if you are using a material like sterling power cord.
Do you think the first test with the bunny ears anchor would preform worse if they were clove hitches instead?
Good question. I think the results would be pretty similar.
So, since you mentioned it, what’s the kN for spines?
Gracias por comaprtir! (ES)
Obrigado por compartilhar! (BR)
Oh my!
Hello sir I would like to know were can I buy chafing gear for 3/8 am steel for soft shackles please thank us sir Bradley
Hot take: these days I just don't care about equalization or no extension (which is usually just equalization by another name).
Equalization basically doesn't provide load distribution in most cases from what I've seen: the vast majority of the time, most of the load is on one of your anchor points. Equalization doesn't make your anchor stronger.
Shock loading from extension is a questionable concept: I don't think we have much evidence that an anchor point failing can ever increase load on another anchor point, beyond the increase caused by the further fall distance. Even if shock loading is real, it's not a problem if your anchor points don't fail, so making sure each of your anchor points is Strong/Solid avoids the potential problem. Extension can cause further fall distance, but in most cases we're talking about adding a few feet at most to a fall.
I care about strong/solid because I don't want any part of my anchor to fail.
I care about redundant, but not because of the forces on the components on an anchor. Because I care about strong/solid, typically any one component of an anchor is made with materials that can hold any forces that can realistically occur in a fall IF they are configured correctly. But that's a big "if": the reason I care about redundancy is to guard against user errors, such as not screwing tight a carabiner gate or putting a cord over a sharp edge. I trust that my anchor components are strong enough to catch me if I don't make any mistakes, but I don't trust myself to never make mistakes: if one anchor component fails due to my error, I want another anchor component to be there to save me.
I care about efficiency (in terms of weight and time) because I don't want to be dragging around a bunch of heavy gear or spending a bunch of time at every anchor.
S, R. and E don't make for many good acronyms, but that's the letters I have. :)
These days I use that bunny ears cordelette anchor quite a bit, but I'm usually using Sterling PowerCord--while it's actually slightly thinner at 5.9mm than that 6mm cord you're testing, I think it's rated to a higher MBS (I'm not sure, because I don't know the strength of the cord you're using). I agree with your conclusion that the weaker 6mm is probably okay, but there's really not much downside to having a stronger, lighter cord that's more abrasion-resistant. It's slightly more expensive, but for one segment of cord over hundreds of uses, we're talking cents-per-use and I just don't care about that much extra cost.
If I know all my anchors are going to be bolted, I'll bring a pre-built quad anchor because it's a lot faster to just clip two bolts and have an anchor. But that doesn't really give you the same flexibility as I usually want for trad where some of my anchors might be gear anchors, hence preferring the bunny ears anchor in most cases.
I totally agree with you. Sterling power cord with bunny ears is a very versatile tool.
The Conn. Tree hitch is fascinating, beating a figure 8 in a single strand!? What happens with it using Dyneema?
I'm going to ask again as you touched on it so briefly....... I'm trying to find out how much a bowline on the bight reduces the overall strength of ROPE (not webbing) when you're tighed into both loops (or both loops are through the eye of a captive eye carabiner and you are clipped into the carabiner). I'm trying to see if the bowline on the bight is better then a re threaded figure 8 going through the captive eye (so only 1 rope through). You can find out the % that the figure 8 reduces the rope by from almost EVERYONE, but I'm still to find the % on the bowline on a bight. Please help😢
this is just standard 6mm not technora? only reason i'm asking is because my technora is black as well. thanks for all you do :)
I like the channel even more now Ryan's dad is on it
I'm only wadded up about extension if the anchors are gear.
Oh my indeed! Just goes to show, it's not always what you're packing it's how you use it 😏🙄
Well sliding x with limiters is nice and redundant
What if u try tying the tree hitch on both end of the rope and see how much strength it has.
I like the tailless BFK because there easier to untie
But why not update using a Girth Hitch with X twist, rapidly replacing many older variants on BFK?
Obviously not yet. Darned!
I don’t find the Connecticut tree hitch pull test valid for those results at all. In guiding we have borrowed this technique from arborists but when utilizing it I use it around an actual tree because it spicy 4rth class terrain or lower risk 5 th class terrain with stout trees it makes for quick transition’s. Testing it this around a small radius of the bar stock carabiners x 2 totally skews real life situation. Using a dynamic rope around a tree adds additional surface friction coefficient. Yes It’s closed with a locking carabiner true but I personally use a round stock biner to get better radius. So my suggestion is too repeat this test with a dynamic rope outside on a good tree to show truer results and im willing to bet you will get much higher failure results 🤔
I heard a rumour if you twist the second daisy loop 180degrees it doesn’t disconnect. I wanna see this tested tbh. I would also like to see the bowline on a sling terminated back to the anchor
This make me feel really safe with my 7mm cordolette.
Its called a Frost knot in climbing. 6mm is fine. 6mm is very common as anchoring material in mountain rescue with two person loads. Its plenty strong as long as you double it up and with 3-5 anchor points depending on your anchor points.
In MR teams, the standard practise is a minimum of 2 independent 20 kN anchors, always with tape, not with cord.
@@dougsanders3656 Not true at all...Cord and tape are both standards and best practice with MR teams in the US. Not sure where you are getting your information from.
I love your test videos, but in the case for this set up wouldn't you need the drop test as it would be almost inconceivable that you would put a load on an anchor like that in a gradually increasing rate? 🤔
yes but to 'break test' these devices it'd require dropping 2-ton weights on the end of a dynamic rope, which also doesn't reflect reality perfectly, and is a much bigger operation
@@Se7nDust you can substitute 2t of weigh5 with less weight ave velocity. Velocity or fall distance and acceleration by gravity really drives the force applied.
My guess is equalisation is screwed, especially with the knots... and so yeah, the two middle strands were breaking first.. (try it with an offset load so it's all on one thin leg) [this for the bunny ears]... and that leads me to equalisation myths (i.e. no it's no equalised)
I don't think it's so much an issue of equalization as it is that the center bolt is carrying half the load of each of the strands brings a quarter of the load up, since the center bolt is being pulled on by two strands. I think it adds a shear force to the rope at the bolt that increases the load enough to bring that to failure first, similar to a knot tightening on a rope.
Friendly reminder theres a good chance I'm alive because of the not so common sense you teach. Thanks once again.
Need a spine break test. For context.
I think a 15kn anchor is good enough when needed, but shouldn't be your first choice.
So how many KN's does it take for you to have a "bad day". Basically I'm asking is there an anchor point at which a lifeless corpse is hanging by. Sure you didnt splatter the ground but at the same time your no longer with the living.
Tendon make 10kN 6mil cord. How on earth is that not enough!? That beats a lot of 7mil.
Could you test using a purcell as a PAS?
I do
@@jasminebebe3455 You use a purcell as PAS? I'm glad to hear at least someone else does hahah
@@Alex-tz9lg It works well and it is also my emergency ascender..
No 6mm in climbing? My prusik loop :(
I love my Edelrid 6mm hmpe for prusiks anchors self belays etc 🎉 it’s 22kn so why use any sling cord whatsoever sh*t😊
Voice quality needs consideration in future videos. Good work, as ever, though!
About the "Bunny ears cordelette" with 6mm cord. I don't think that it is ok to use as an anchor. MBS of 15kN for a brand new 6mm bunny ears cordelette does NOT make it acceptable for use IMO. The reasons : 1- The strands can be on trad gear that can blow so having a strong attachment to each of the individual pieces is critical. From the overlall 15kN you get, I estimate you only have about 4kN on the left and right pieces and maybe 7kN on the center piece. A recommended (probably what UIAA, UIAAGM and other associations recommend) 7mm cord doubled (normal) would be around 9.5kN on each piece this is the standard that should be used IMO. 2- In the real world, the gear gets worn. Cord can be 40% sheath and 60% core so if a cord is about to desheath from abrasion, the 4kN of the single 6mm strand gets to maybe 2.5kN.
dont tie the knot in the bottom of it, just pair them together and clip into the loops of the bunny ears, then it will indeed stay equalized and not yank the center one first.
Invite me on the show to talk about redundancy vs durability. 😊
Wait how is your wingspan 5 feet? It doesnt look like youre 5 feet tall. 8:13
Definitely will not kill you. But maybe it won't save you.
Connecticut Hitch..... hahahahaahaha
Extension is not really that big a deal.
Hi, climbers! At 9:33 you cannot test the set oft six parallel strands alone without observe (or give them) possibility of equilibration between them!
Please try the same with a large Ring closed by a double Spierenstich and fold it into three double strands :-) 😳
Another fine Test would be to stress a long "Standschlinge" perhaps 150 cm/5 inches lang, divided into three rings and see what comes out?
Nice greetings form austria!
Eric
Some very curious logic here. Not convinced.
He has the speech pattern of Trump....
I do this all the time stop showing fake news!!