Have you climbed 5 gallon buckets in smith rock? The blog has the kilanewtents chart ;) www.hownot2.com/post/mussy-hooks Check out our new store! hownot2.store/
I climbed it a couple times in 2022 so I probably lowered off the same gear you tested. When I saw them up there I thought “wow those are worn, but they’re both probably not going to break at the same time”. Good to know now that the rope would still break first…
Hey guys, just wanted to inform you there was a fatal accident at Sand Rock Al recently that was using the system you guys start explaining around 9:29. First climber set up a top rope with a locker up high to reduce wear on the permanent hardware, party climbed the route for a while, last climber was inexperienced and was told to go up and just take off the locker then lower down. In order to unweight the locker she had to climb to jugs slightly above the anchor, resulting in her hips being above the mussy hooks, she unclipped the locker, and when lowering herself back down below the anchors came down on the opposite side, resulting in the back clip scenario. She was able to weight the system without falling momentarily, but when the belayer took hard it pulled the rope through the hooks and she fell. I love your channel and appreciate all the work you guys put in, but I think that maybe the locker method on mussy hooks might not be advisable due to possibly having to climb above the hooks in order to retrieve the locker. (Obvs this all would have been prevented has she had a PAS, i just thought the incident was of note.). Thank you again for all the info you guys give to the community. Peace.
@@samuelbuettner1214her friends fault for not teaching her how to be safe. Her own fault for not knowing the risks of the system, and trusting her lame ass friends. Rest in peace
I just came from a Sandrock trail day yesterday, where some of the folks replaced some of the fixed gear. Now I haven't replaced fixed gear, but I can't imagine it's too much more work than climbing the route. As for the cost, I will gladly donate a crag's worth of hardware wear to be able to not worry about deadly accidents like the one above.
I don't understand people who have a go about "if you can't do this thing you shouldn't be climbing" as an argument against adding in more layers of safety, anywhere you can remove a possibility of human error is a good thing.
@@Psychshifted id sooner trust that someone isnt gonna fuck up a knot that they have to pay attention to than some bit of gear they just have to slip a rope into. Of course, both should be checked thoroughly, but between the 2 i think i know which one would have more bonehead mistakes
10:28 This combination of mussy hooks and a carabineer was just involved in a fatal accident in the southeast. While offering a more secure anchor when set up, it is deceptively dangerous to clean as the climber must unweight the carabineer and may naturally climb above the mussy, setting up an unclip scenario once the carabiner is removed. It also seems to have been confused with the similar setup that is done with closed hardware and advertised as an "easy clean" anchor for beginners that can be done without a personal anchor, however this setup must be cleaned with a PAS and weight testing to be safe. I independently have made the same conflation myself and it seems that others have to. I was trying to remember where I had learned about this setup in the wake of the accident, and I believe it may have been from this video, along with some posts from alpinesavy about the closed hardware variation which made me associate this with "easy cleaning". I think it's very easy to end up above open hardware in the wild, whether it's during cleaning or gaining a rest position at the end of the route, and it needs to be respected as a dangerous situation, specifically with these non opposed mussys. Even an unanticipated fall to the last draw could be nasty.
I have seen a rope unclip from one mussy when one was backclipped/twisted. The second one of course held, but by the time the lowered climber was on the ground they were only on one mussy. Happened at Sheelite wall, Bishop. I had thought the only way for a mussy to unclip was by climbing past it and falling, but this was just from rope twist. So clipping mussies so that the rope runs smoothly from one to the other to the lowering climber is actually important.
Prost. I have followed your channel for years and have shared countless videos with the arborist community, the climbing community, and the rope access community. Your time and energy breaking gear fear has been vastly helpful to me as a climber in all three of those communities. Keep up the good work.
Just a heads up please donate to the ASCA. They've provided me with a lot of the climbtech mussys ( shown in video) to make local crags lower off friendly
I really like the idea of the rams horn. Easy to understand, easy to use, easy to replace. I'd love to see more of these over the standard permanent carabiners here in Aus.
there is a big problem: often they get installed in a way that you can not put your own stuff in the bolt anymore (at least here in germany) so you have to climb on an open system if you want to toprope this route. And those things tend to get extremely dangerous as soon as you climb a bit higher than the bolt.. there are better solutions imho.
@as3fawf climbing above an anchor is almost exclusively a sport climbing problem. It's also a challenge for climbers with a bit more than entry level experience in my opinion
@as3fawf so, a competent sport climber, being above an anchor, should have planned and brought the appropriate gear and mental state. So, if you want to use a different method, do it. The rams horn is easy to remove from the bolt.. non issue really
Just put as little wear on the installed hardware on your crag as possible. That means putting your own quickdraw (or even two of them or a locking carabiner) at the top if you plan to repeat the route. Only use the installed hardware at the very end when you have to remove your own stuff.
I think it’s a good idea…but I climbed with Marty Lewis in the Owens River Gorge and he told me to just clip the mussey hooks, when I told him I didn’t want to prematurely wear them out he said that’s why they are there.
@@tallndorky They are pretty cheap and last a loooong time, so it’s okay to use them. But at the same time it’s so easy to avoid that wear. With pig tails using quick draws can also be good for your rope since the pig tail is usually quite close to the rock which can make the rope rub on the rock.
Have purchased, equipped, and replaced plenty of permanent gear with the intent folks even use those anchors for toproping, but definitely for lowering off. The gear is nothing sacred. Please, if there is a permanent anchor, clip in.
I've rapped off those exact hooks many times, thanks for confirming they're super good enough! I always choose to rap over lowering from worn gear like that mostly for concern for my rope, not the strength of the anchor. Would be cool so see Decker lower a dozen times then take a whip on similarly worn gear and see what happens to the rope. Stoked so see gear I've used on the channel (even if it's from the most popular 5.8 in Oregon), thanks Ryan!
In Slovakia Rams horn anchors are usually connected in an anchor built from chains, so you have 2 bolts, one above and slightly to the side of another and chains connecting the bolts (glue ins), the rams horn is usually connected to the lower bolt so even without an extra biener, the anchor is backed up. People are advised to top rope using 2 quick-draws or a carabiner in the anchor to prevent wear of the rams hors, they are usually welded so you cannot thread them out of the bolt.
I remember seeing those exact worn down hooks at smith over the summer and finding them unsettling. I think I decided to rapp instead of lower to avoid adding to the wear. But this test was very reassuring!
Thanks! In Austria they replaced most of the ram horns, because there have been multiple (deadly) accidents in the past when people overclimbed the anchor. As it unravels one side only in the beginning it's easy to be overlooked. In areas where they didn't replace the rams horn, they added the additional carabiner underneath in the exact same way as Bobby described.
I would love to see some of the accident reports. For any multipitch climbing, or any climbing above an anchor people should be using their own anchor and/or clipping a quickdraw to the anchor as you would with any bolt. I've never heard of a deadly accident happening this way but I would love to see some reports since you say it has happened multiple times in Austria.
@@duseks I replied a few minutes ago from my mobile, but it looks like the comment wasn't posted because it contained links. The German name of these anchors is "Sauschwanz" (which translates to pigtail). The actual form slightly varies from manufacturer to manufacturer, but some of them do look exactly the same as in this video. I'm sure you can find some articles when you are googling with the german name. The Alpenverein (the Austrian equivalent to the American Alpine Club) considers the pigtails as potentially dangerous for 2 reasons: 1) when abruptly unloading a dynamic rope on a long abseil it could jump out (unlikely, but there are at least 2 such accidents reported). 2) When climbing above the anchor, or building a top-rope from above, there is a chance of it unclipping on one side. That might either go completely unnoticed, or might even look "okay" at the first sight, because the rope is still inside the ram's horn on the other side. But as soon as there is movement on the rope it will come out on the other side as well, and you fall to the bottom of the wall. This kind of accident happened quite a few times, when the climbers were top-roping on own gear and the last one who climbed up removed their own gear and then wanted to lower on the ram's horn. When removing the own gear, the climber pulled himself up to unload the own gear, by doing so his hips came above the rams horn and the rope unintentionally got out of the rams horn as well. I've tried this myself and the hips have to be very close to the wall for it to happen, but yes, it can happen. Therefore, the recommendation in Austria is to not use this kind of anchor for multi-pitches and to not use without an additional carabiner being clipped in (so the way Bobby builds his anchors is perfectly safe, but the ram's horn alone might not perfectly safe). I hope that helps, happy to answer your questions 🙂
@@duseks most popular option for anchors (where I live) are steel chains (from 2 anchors), with 2 steel carabiners (similar to climbing technology gym steel) in the steel ring connecting the steel chains. The screw in carabiner makes them less likely to get stolen.
Saw this as I have an interest in lifting equipment, hooks, and breaking things. I'm not familiar with climbing gear, but I regularly design commercial material lifting and handling equipment. When evaluating commercial lifting hardware ratings, be aware that there are differences in the required components service factors depending on the application. Stuff for overhead lifting has a higher service factor than stuff for tie-downs or dragging stuff around. This means similar sized lifting equipment may have a lower rated capacity than that for tie-downs. The Crosby catalog is an excellent source of information on commercial rigging hardware.
I’d love to see you test some saddle hunting gear. There’s a lot of folks in the deer hunting world using climbing gear and know nothing about climbing gear! (Me included)
I had a worn out ram horn at my local crag, looked scary to see half of its metal missing, but im here writing this... Thx for giving a good idea of what clmbing gear can and cannot do!
OMG! I climbed 5 gallon buckets when those were still up! I took a look at them and was like "huh, I wanna see these break tested" and now its happening!!!
I saw a video about an accident where a new climber was removing the biner clipped to the chains. No one really knows what happened, but someone speculated that she had pulled the rope above the hooks at some point where she was removing the biner and ultimately fell to her death.
Great vid! It amazes me that some developers don’t use redundant lower points - I see a lot of 2 chains connecting to a single biner (steel or aluminum). It would be good to go into the topic more - best open anchor configuration using different options like mussy, chain etc that gives he best security as well as avoids rope twist. Lastly- would also be good to get a vid break testing Shunt, grigri and other locking belay/rope clamp devices. Cheers!
Saw a mussy hook with a damaged gate that didn’t close at the top of my first lead climb last year. The other hook was in great shape so it’s a good thing there are always two!
I recently put in an order at ExtremeGear and John went above and beyond & special ordered some items for me that weren’t listed. 10/10 will buy from him again!
In regards to the rope pulling through the safety latch on the open hook there is a type of hook called surelock that eliminates this hazard. I occasionally use them for my job as a heavy construction rigger. Not sure if they scale down to a size suitable for your application but it might be worth looking into
If you have at least part of a brain, then the amount of metal loss seen in this video is already highly worrying, mostly because of the unreliability and inconsistency seen in even this very high grade steel. A 40% loss in failure capacity between 2 visually identical parts is purely unacceptable. Manufacturing defects happen. If one of these was forged with a large impurity or an abscess in a critical point of that narrowed cross-section, you could be looking at a 90% loss of capacity. Whoever changed out those hooks did all of you a favor and you should not be mocking them like this.
@@operator8014 Bro asked a question & you're the one that took a mocking tone. Just saying you don't have to be an asshole, but I guess curiosity means you have half a brain.
@@Nick-B78 The strength is related to the cross section, which is actually related to the *square* of the radius. At 10mm nominal diameter, an erosion of **less** than 1mm is enough to reduce the cross section by 10%. I'm not well versed enough in metallurgy yet, but wisdom says that if there is any noticeable wear on your safety device, it's no longer safe.
nice pullingtests , in lifting industry the small latch is to prevent the hooked in loop or shackle to jump out , in a craneboom for instance the flexibility of the boom is sometimes jumping up and down (forward/backwards)
9:11 Quick note about the risks of mussy hooks/open systems unclipping: sadly, there was a recent unfortunate accident involving an UGA student in Alabama dying after making a mistake while cleaning a sports route with mussy hooks at the anchor. The youtube channel 'How To Rock and Alpine Climb' theorizes that this was more or less the cause of the accident, in addition to poor instruction to the student. Sometimes, one in a million events happen sadly.
Few words about the rope coming out (unclipping) of the system during a fall. It is possible and I've seen it in a climbing gym. During a fall from above a small roof the long sling below the roof unclipped. The climber was right above the sling/quickdraw so the rope got loose and created a loop around the carabiner. And probably that's what caused the unclipping. You don't have to fall sideways of the quickdraw, but right above it and have some loosens in the system during the fall. You can try that on the drop tower with different orientations of the carabiner and rope clipped correctly and incorrectly :)
Wait...Did you guys see that big beefy shackle bolt bending right before the mussy hook did? That was crazy...I'm guessing it's from all the pull tests over the years that you may have eneeled the metal and made it soft?
If anything the shackle would have work hardened, but the number of load cycles that Ryan has put it through are several orders of magnitude lower than would be required to do so. The only way to anneal metal is to heat it up and let it cool down slowly. See the Wikipedia article for heat treating.
@cameronwebster6866 Work hardening, although it will harden the steel, it will also make it less tough, and more likely to break when put through this type of stress. Toughness vs hardness... an example would be a piece of copper wire, which work hardens very quickly, bend a piece of copper wire over on itself even once, and the second bend back the other way, you will feel the copper is harder at the point of the bend. You won't be able to bend it more than a few times before it breaks, and the point that it breaks will be where the wire was hardened, and thus in turn becomes brittle eventually. I'm pretty sure steel work hardens the same way.
Actually, it'd do the complete opposite if that were the case. Metal becomes harder and more brittle with repeated use. When you can see metal deflecting under load without failing, that shows that you're actually still within the material's strength limits. There are bridges that will deflect under the weight of traffic by a foot or more and still be well within their limits!
Please don't taint your beautiful scientific process with Bill Nye. For the record I believe this channel is already the best one for the niche you represent. I'm not some svelt rock jock - just a guy who has seen and done a ton of down-rigging for concerts and events and had to climb up cable ladders onto suspended lighting trusses and I find you guys to be the most comprehensive source of information backed up with actual demonstration and after action review of the tests. I'd love to see tests of the stuff we use in Entertainment like deck chains which are rated for 6 tons, and the difference between soft spansets and gakflex (steel cored). Love this channel!
I think the mussy hooks and horns are a good idea. I feel like it’s less things to potentially mess up when getting ready to lower. My first time lead climbing I untied without having the rope fixed to something. Fortunately I didn’t drop it and made it back to the ground safely. I knew my mistake as soon as I did it. 🤦🏼♂️ Won’t do it again.
For all those not familiar with Mussy Hooks, let's see if we understand the purpose. You want to top rope, so you rappel down from an anchor you built on the 2 bolts, then climb normally, from a top-roped belay. You built your own anchor so as not to wear out the community rings. When you want to go home, you climb one more time, clip directly into the bolts, disassemble & rack your anchor and then you normally need to untie from your harness, thread through the rings, then re-tie your figure-8. With the Mussy Hooks, you can just insert your rope into the hooks and get lowered, without needing to untie and retie. Makes sense. So why have we been using rings for 20 years?
Because rings are cheaper and still safe. And the way I was taught to clean on rings you don't ever fully untie, just feed a bight thru and clip the new figure 8 before you untie the old one. But it's still more complicated and prone to error than mussies are. I wish mussies were everywhere.
@@strctlykilz Holy crap, what I described is dangerous.. because if you untie and then drop the rope, you're trapped up there. So thanks for reminding me!! I'm not quite visualizing the correct way yet. Please help me out.. I'm at the top. I clipped my daisy chain to bolts, so I'm safe. Then I feed a bight of my rope thru the rings, make an overhand figure-8 on the bight and tie into that with a locking biner (OK to my belay loop?). Now I clean my anchor. Then what? Untie the main Figure-8 from my harness, pass the bitter end through the rings and then back to harness to retie? Then take out the figure-8-on-a-bight and lower down? It seems so obvious when you're doing it at the time, I'm shocked I can't recall.
@@markus717 once you're on the figure eight on a bight with your locking biner and you untie your original eight and feed it thru, you can just lower off on that, no need to retie. And yes the locking biner goes through your belay loop not your hardpoints
@@markus717 I've had to do it the way you described though on a route that only had chain links and didn't have rap rings because I couldn't get a bight through the links. So def good to know how to do it both ways! Never know what you'll find up there
liftingchains in the lifting industry are checked for lenght after use , so a chainset is measured at the start of use , and if overloaded the lenght does change significant (30ft lenghts)
Standing or steady loads are good to test, but shock loads are the killers. I used to install and operate theatrical rigging for both scenery and riggers (fall protection). Rarely suffered static overload failures, but shock loads could reck a system. Instantly bending, breaking, and malforming connections, anchors, and shackles. It would be interesting to see your rig adapted to check equipment under a fall shock load. FYI fall protection regulations require a 5000 pound point when installed in theatrical, concert, and convention spaces. I don't know if this would apply to permanent climbing points. Thanks for the interesting video.
i used to work in rigging fittings and those lap links are sold to join up chain that is not to be used for any load bearing uses at all. they are notorious for unbending at the slightest bit of stress
Nitpicking for sure, have just been binging your channel but saying "dont develop routes if you cant afford it" just hit home because I use next to nothing climbing rock since I was young because I loved it (secure now) but exploration is where its at!
❤️ Those lap links??? WE USE THOSE IN CONSTRUCTION. Use lap links to repair chains, first hammer the gap closed, then weld it. Then anneal it. Not for climbing.
It would be really interesting to do some kind of repetitive load testing on a Mussy hook; take 30 meters of (dirty?) rope, run it through the hook with a load equivalent to what it would see from lowering a climber, and do it multiple thousands of times and see what kind of wear happens on the hook. . The hook that you guys got from 5 gallon buckets is from one of the most popular climbs at Smith. I have no idea how many people lowered off that, but I'm guessing many thousands. . Having some solid data on this might encourage people to start lowering off these when top roping as a more regular practice, if they in fact can take multiple thousands of climbers. . Yes, I understand the current ethic in most places is to not lower on fixed gear. However, if that gear can take thousands of cycles and only costs under $20 to replace, that might start to change the mindset.
9:20 I've had a carabiner open up exactly like that. Fortunately, I don't climb. I use a giant carabiner to catch mooring balls on my boat. We always put additional lines on after the initial catch with the carabiner, except one day when the wind was particularly light and we thought we'd just do it after checking into trinidad. It's not a good feeling to watch your floating home drift by through a mooring field of very expensive boats. Funny thing is it would have never opened if there had been any pressure on it.
I just encountered my first ram's horn in Albania last week, at Brar. I really liked the simplicity of it, and how easy it would be to replace in the future.
I've been a towing professional for many years and believe that if something is not safe enough for securing cargo, it probably shouldn't be used for life safety. Those quick links and easy links and split c links are banned in towing, but hammerlock, repair clevis links and shackles of sufficient grade are allowed. An important thing to look at on the slip hook is the GRADE of the hardware. Grade 80 and above is for life safety and overhead lifting. Grade 80 slip hook is what is typically used on the winch of a tow truck. Grade 30 is not for anything other than utility. Grade 43 (High Test) is for horizontal use and is okay for safety on utility trailers, dragging logs, etc. Grade 70, shown here, is for commercial highway safety, transport, and lifting which is not overhead or life safety.
I've never gone rock climbing in my life but I use that style of hook at the ends of my logging chains and they regularly are used to lift logs that weigh thousands of lbs so I would be fine trusting one to hold my weight.
I will say this, as someone who does alot of material lifting. Gates are usually messed up by the user on those hooks. It's mostly people not fully latching ropes inside.
When I was an outdoor instructor, to give a bit of confidence to the kids, I'd point out the 22kn rating on the kit and drop the fact that our 16 seater minibus weighed less then that! As soon as I saw the worn mussi hooks, my instant response was "Yeah, that would still hold the minibus". I haven't worked as an outdoor instructor for about 20 years and I still remember stuff like that...... and the safety talks for EVERTHING we did at our outdoor center!! I was also right that the mussi hook would hold a minibus 🤣🤣🤣🤣
I was climbing on sandstone in Germany and they had some quite worn down rams horns, I just put in my own retreat beener as I thought the sharp edges were a concern. can you break test some of those with rope?
I once inspected a 10 ton coffing electric chain hoist that the customer had ground over half of the top of the upper hook off to make it fit the home made trolley. Needless to say, he got a red tag instead of a state cert.
This was my first time seeing your channel and I hit subscribe just before you showed the new machine. I'm not a climber an not likely to buy stuff from the sight but I love information and engineering stuff. If you ever want help in materials or manufacturing reach out.
Learned this a long time ago aboard a not very big tractor (Massey 2800) in Ontario Canada while trying to recover another tractor. I was lucky that the hook and cable that it was attached to missed me when it let go. The hook was rated for more weight than the stuck tractor, but let go before the chain that was connected to the 3 point.
Result number two is why they tell you to get far and wide away from cables when you're pulling and towing or otherwise getting a vehicle unstuck using winch and cable(steel chain/hooks) methods.
mussy accidents, had one here in israel 20 years ago....a pair were practicing top belay on a single pitch route. leader climbed onto a ledge above the mussy and anchored himself to a tree. he then brought up his second who cleaned the route on the way up and then lowered off....leader then clipped into the mussy below him, untied his tree anchor and then while climbing down over the ledge became unclipped from the mussy and fell 26 metres. not clear from the report if there were two mussy hooks or just one.
Love how over-engineered these things are, at no point are you really going to need more than 20kN for a single rock climber, but all of this stuff is built to withstand so much more.
In the uk it is considered poor form to top rope on the fixed anchor. Every one i know will top rope off there own gear clipped to the anchors ( usually two quick draws cliped oposing each other ). This is done to minimize wear on the gear in the wall wich is harder to replace. However this asside it is always nice when there is a rams horn/pig tail lower off. Regardless of how easy the lower off is though and whever or not you need to untie i personally think and i someone is lacking knowledge of how to clean an anchor safely they should let an experienced climber clean it (someone ones put the top rope in even if it means they have to climb the route twice). In the uk atleast every gym has a board of all posible anchors where you can go practice cleaninf in a safe place. I see so many first timers being shouted at by there freind at the bottom of the route with instructions on how to do this dangerous thing they are about to do and it makes me cringe everytime. I sometimes even interupt and offer to climb and retrive there gear myself. All for things to make the process safer though for all concerned and really wish we had more bolted anchors at the top of our trad routes in the uk
Even very experienced climbers make mistakes and die tying and untying at anchors. There is always a complacency factor that will kill you when you think you know what you are doing.
As a horse rider, I just worry about the mussy stabbing someone on the way down. Horse gear tends to use hooks and if your horse spooks they can impale themselves in it.
Would love to see a hammer on chain link tested vs an open slip link, both can be changed but the hammer on requires a hammer and chisel to remove which would aid in theft prevention
Would be interested to see a test of whether the worn notch would actually damage a rope at a certain point. Even if its not sharp, there have been cases where a relatively dull edge on a carabiner has cut a rope
Have you climbed 5 gallon buckets in smith rock? The blog has the kilanewtents chart ;) www.hownot2.com/post/mussy-hooks
Check out our new store! hownot2.store/
🙌 where my smith rock locals at!! I would venture to guess 5 gallon buckets is the most heavily trafficked route in the park!
I climbed it in ‘94
My first lead 93
Yes climbed 5 gallon, also back in the 90's. Shoot that makes me sound old. Isn't 9 gallon bucket near there too
I climbed it a couple times in 2022 so I probably lowered off the same gear you tested. When I saw them up there I thought “wow those are worn, but they’re both probably not going to break at the same time”. Good to know now that the rope would still break first…
Hey guys, just wanted to inform you there was a fatal accident at Sand Rock Al recently that was using the system you guys start explaining around 9:29. First climber set up a top rope with a locker up high to reduce wear on the permanent hardware, party climbed the route for a while, last climber was inexperienced and was told to go up and just take off the locker then lower down. In order to unweight the locker she had to climb to jugs slightly above the anchor, resulting in her hips being above the mussy hooks, she unclipped the locker, and when lowering herself back down below the anchors came down on the opposite side, resulting in the back clip scenario. She was able to weight the system without falling momentarily, but when the belayer took hard it pulled the rope through the hooks and she fell. I love your channel and appreciate all the work you guys put in, but I think that maybe the locker method on mussy hooks might not be advisable due to possibly having to climb above the hooks in order to retrieve the locker. (Obvs this all would have been prevented has she had a PAS, i just thought the incident was of note.). Thank you again for all the info you guys give to the community. Peace.
Gnarly. Rest in peace, climber- sorry for her family and friends
@HowNOT2
Never let the inexperienced climber clean a route, very sad that happened
@@samuelbuettner1214her friends fault for not teaching her how to be safe. Her own fault for not knowing the risks of the system, and trusting her lame ass friends. Rest in peace
I just came from a Sandrock trail day yesterday, where some of the folks replaced some of the fixed gear. Now I haven't replaced fixed gear, but I can't imagine it's too much more work than climbing the route. As for the cost, I will gladly donate a crag's worth of hardware wear to be able to not worry about deadly accidents like the one above.
I don't understand people who have a go about "if you can't do this thing you shouldn't be climbing" as an argument against adding in more layers of safety, anywhere you can remove a possibility of human error is a good thing.
Also it is way better for allowing more people on climbs at busy crags!
fr
The other side of the argument is the less the human has to think about it, the more likely they are to do something dumb and fuck themselves over
@@ciarangale4738 you mean the more because humans are attrotious at multi tasking
@@Psychshifted id sooner trust that someone isnt gonna fuck up a knot that they have to pay attention to than some bit of gear they just have to slip a rope into. Of course, both should be checked thoroughly, but between the 2 i think i know which one would have more bonehead mistakes
I would love to see a test like this with a thermal camera.
PLEASE i need to see this too.
Watch it glow!
I'm sure that would be scientifically very interesting to see as well. Great comment!
that would be Be very interesting.
I'm not sure a thermal camera is "super-good-enough" to clip into as a permanent open-anchor to get lowered from the top of climbs. 😁
10:28 This combination of mussy hooks and a carabineer was just involved in a fatal accident in the southeast. While offering a more secure anchor when set up, it is deceptively dangerous to clean as the climber must unweight the carabineer and may naturally climb above the mussy, setting up an unclip scenario once the carabiner is removed. It also seems to have been confused with the similar setup that is done with closed hardware and advertised as an "easy clean" anchor for beginners that can be done without a personal anchor, however this setup must be cleaned with a PAS and weight testing to be safe. I independently have made the same conflation myself and it seems that others have to. I was trying to remember where I had learned about this setup in the wake of the accident, and I believe it may have been from this video, along with some posts from alpinesavy about the closed hardware variation which made me associate this with "easy cleaning". I think it's very easy to end up above open hardware in the wild, whether it's during cleaning or gaining a rest position at the end of the route, and it needs to be respected as a dangerous situation, specifically with these non opposed mussys. Even an unanticipated fall to the last draw could be nasty.
they made the inexperienced climber clean the route.
that should never have happened, and it's unfortunate that it did.
Wow I never would have complained about the echo at the old lab. But I am looking forward to the amazing sound quality in the new lab
100% Sound has always been suprgudenuf but wow the acoustics in that room were great for this! Great job!!
73% not being subscribed means youtube thinks your content is good and is serving it to many new people! its a good thing.
💡
I have seen a rope unclip from one mussy when one was backclipped/twisted. The second one of course held, but by the time the lowered climber was on the ground they were only on one mussy. Happened at Sheelite wall, Bishop. I had thought the only way for a mussy to unclip was by climbing past it and falling, but this was just from rope twist. So clipping mussies so that the rope runs smoothly from one to the other to the lowering climber is actually important.
I have zero interest in climbing but I love watching things break 😁
Loved the video and your analysation of each hooky thingy. 😁
Prost. I have followed your channel for years and have shared countless videos with the arborist community, the climbing community, and the rope access community. Your time and energy breaking gear fear has been vastly helpful to me as a climber in all three of those communities. Keep up the good work.
Just a heads up please donate to the ASCA. They've provided me with a lot of the climbtech mussys ( shown in video) to make local crags lower off friendly
I really like the idea of the rams horn. Easy to understand, easy to use, easy to replace. I'd love to see more of these over the standard permanent carabiners here in Aus.
there is a big problem: often they get installed in a way that you can not put your own stuff in the bolt anymore (at least here in germany) so you have to climb on an open system if you want to toprope this route. And those things tend to get extremely dangerous as soon as you climb a bit higher than the bolt.. there are better solutions imho.
@as3fawf climbing above an anchor is almost exclusively a sport climbing problem. It's also a challenge for climbers with a bit more than entry level experience in my opinion
@@SLOCLMBR so?
@as3fawf so, a competent sport climber, being above an anchor, should have planned and brought the appropriate gear and mental state. So, if you want to use a different method, do it. The rams horn is easy to remove from the bolt.. non issue really
So, one would hope that those more experienced climbers only climb above the anchor knowing the risks or having a different plan in mind.
Just put as little wear on the installed hardware on your crag as possible. That means putting your own quickdraw (or even two of them or a locking carabiner) at the top if you plan to repeat the route. Only use the installed hardware at the very end when you have to remove your own stuff.
I think it’s a good idea…but I climbed with Marty Lewis in the Owens River Gorge and he told me to just clip the mussey hooks, when I told him I didn’t want to prematurely wear them out he said that’s why they are there.
@@tallndorky They are pretty cheap and last a loooong time, so it’s okay to use them. But at the same time it’s so easy to avoid that wear. With pig tails using quick draws can also be good for your rope since the pig tail is usually quite close to the rock which can make the rope rub on the rock.
As a route equiper I agree with Marty. -Bobby
Have purchased, equipped, and replaced plenty of permanent gear with the intent folks even use those anchors for toproping, but definitely for lowering off. The gear is nothing sacred. Please, if there is a permanent anchor, clip in.
Use the technique mentioned at 10:25, saves wear on permanent gear but still utilizes the safety of lower without having to clean your anchor/gear
I've rapped off those exact hooks many times, thanks for confirming they're super good enough! I always choose to rap over lowering from worn gear like that mostly for concern for my rope, not the strength of the anchor. Would be cool so see Decker lower a dozen times then take a whip on similarly worn gear and see what happens to the rope. Stoked so see gear I've used on the channel (even if it's from the most popular 5.8 in Oregon), thanks Ryan!
I have actually seen double ram horns (pig tails) up in NH
In Slovakia Rams horn anchors are usually connected in an anchor built from chains, so you have 2 bolts, one above and slightly to the side of another and chains connecting the bolts (glue ins), the rams horn is usually connected to the lower bolt so even without an extra biener, the anchor is backed up. People are advised to top rope using 2 quick-draws or a carabiner in the anchor to prevent wear of the rams hors, they are usually welded so you cannot thread them out of the bolt.
Just wanted to drop in and say how much I love this channel and all the valuable info it brings to the sport.
I remember seeing those exact worn down hooks at smith over the summer and finding them unsettling. I think I decided to rapp instead of lower to avoid adding to the wear. But this test was very reassuring!
Thanks! In Austria they replaced most of the ram horns, because there have been multiple (deadly) accidents in the past when people overclimbed the anchor. As it unravels one side only in the beginning it's easy to be overlooked.
In areas where they didn't replace the rams horn, they added the additional carabiner underneath in the exact same way as Bobby described.
I would love to see some of the accident reports. For any multipitch climbing, or any climbing above an anchor people should be using their own anchor and/or clipping a quickdraw to the anchor as you would with any bolt. I've never heard of a deadly accident happening this way but I would love to see some reports since you say it has happened multiple times in Austria.
@@duseks I replied a few minutes ago from my mobile, but it looks like the comment wasn't posted because it contained links. The German name of these anchors is "Sauschwanz" (which translates to pigtail). The actual form slightly varies from manufacturer to manufacturer, but some of them do look exactly the same as in this video. I'm sure you can find some articles when you are googling with the german name.
The Alpenverein (the Austrian equivalent to the American Alpine Club) considers the pigtails as potentially dangerous for 2 reasons:
1) when abruptly unloading a dynamic rope on a long abseil it could jump out (unlikely, but there are at least 2 such accidents reported).
2) When climbing above the anchor, or building a top-rope from above, there is a chance of it unclipping on one side. That might either go completely unnoticed, or might even look "okay" at the first sight, because the rope is still inside the ram's horn on the other side. But as soon as there is movement on the rope it will come out on the other side as well, and you fall to the bottom of the wall.
This kind of accident happened quite a few times, when the climbers were top-roping on own gear and the last one who climbed up removed their own gear and then wanted to lower on the ram's horn. When removing the own gear, the climber pulled himself up to unload the own gear, by doing so his hips came above the rams horn and the rope unintentionally got out of the rams horn as well. I've tried this myself and the hips have to be very close to the wall for it to happen, but yes, it can happen.
Therefore, the recommendation in Austria is to not use this kind of anchor for multi-pitches and to not use without an additional carabiner being clipped in (so the way Bobby builds his anchors is perfectly safe, but the ram's horn alone might not perfectly safe).
I hope that helps, happy to answer your questions 🙂
@@duseks most popular option for anchors (where I live) are steel chains (from 2 anchors), with 2 steel carabiners (similar to climbing technology gym steel) in the steel ring connecting the steel chains. The screw in carabiner makes them less likely to get stolen.
This is why it's hard to argue with forged rap rings on quicklinks.
Saw this as I have an interest in lifting equipment, hooks, and breaking things. I'm not familiar with climbing gear, but I regularly design commercial material lifting and handling equipment. When evaluating commercial lifting hardware ratings, be aware that there are differences in the required components service factors depending on the application. Stuff for overhead lifting has a higher service factor than stuff for tie-downs or dragging stuff around. This means similar sized lifting equipment may have a lower rated capacity than that for tie-downs. The Crosby catalog is an excellent source of information on commercial rigging hardware.
I’d love to see you test some saddle hunting gear. There’s a lot of folks in the deer hunting world using climbing gear and know nothing about climbing gear! (Me included)
Ryan was on fire on this episode, love the commentary and jokes haha
My thoughts exactly! He had some zingers
I had a worn out ram horn at my local crag, looked scary to see half of its metal missing, but im here writing this... Thx for giving a good idea of what clmbing gear can and cannot do!
OMG! I climbed 5 gallon buckets when those were still up! I took a look at them and was like "huh, I wanna see these break tested" and now its happening!!!
I saw a video about an accident where a new climber was removing the biner clipped to the chains. No one really knows what happened, but someone speculated that she had pulled the rope above the hooks at some point where she was removing the biner and ultimately fell to her death.
Great vid! It amazes me that some developers don’t use redundant lower points - I see a lot of 2 chains connecting to a single biner (steel or aluminum).
It would be good to go into the topic more - best open anchor configuration using different options like mussy, chain etc that gives he best security as well as avoids rope twist.
Lastly- would also be good to get a vid break testing Shunt, grigri and other locking belay/rope clamp devices. Cheers!
Super Thank You Enough for everything you have done it truly is making the community safer
Saw a mussy hook with a damaged gate that didn’t close at the top of my first lead climb last year. The other hook was in great shape so it’s a good thing there are always two!
I recently put in an order at ExtremeGear and John went above and beyond & special ordered some items for me that weren’t listed. 10/10 will buy from him again!
Lovey our videos keep the faith in your work and I second the thermal camera suggestion
I am happy that I csn help this wonderfull channel via Patreon. Wish I could do more, but since I live in Brazil, that's all I can afford
“This would probably be look like but with feathers”
Lmfao I love it.
Great archeological work, gents!
"It was used for ceremonial purposes"
In regards to the rope pulling through the safety latch on the open hook there is a type of hook called surelock that eliminates this hazard. I occasionally use them for my job as a heavy construction rigger. Not sure if they scale down to a size suitable for your application but it might be worth looking into
Exciting to see your new place! Hopeful it meets and exceeds your expectations
Im not a climber, but still use some of the same items. Its always impressive to see just how strong some of the woven fabrics are.
17:15 It’s a Bolticore, like a Manticore, but bolts
Any chance you can grind a deeper notch in the mussy hook to see how much metal loss before you should be worried?
If you have at least part of a brain, then the amount of metal loss seen in this video is already highly worrying, mostly because of the unreliability and inconsistency seen in even this very high grade steel. A 40% loss in failure capacity between 2 visually identical parts is purely unacceptable.
Manufacturing defects happen. If one of these was forged with a large impurity or an abscess in a critical point of that narrowed cross-section, you could be looking at a 90% loss of capacity.
Whoever changed out those hooks did all of you a favor and you should not be mocking them like this.
@@operator8014 Totally agree. Acceptable wear is officially 10% which on most normal carabiners would mean only 1mm as they’re only around 10mm thick
@@operator8014 Bro asked a question & you're the one that took a mocking tone. Just saying you don't have to be an asshole, but I guess curiosity means you have half a brain.
also that will get a lovely sharp edge on for your rope to be hanging on. hard is easy did a good video on beaner edges
@@Nick-B78 The strength is related to the cross section, which is actually related to the *square* of the radius. At 10mm nominal diameter, an erosion of **less** than 1mm is enough to reduce the cross section by 10%. I'm not well versed enough in metallurgy yet, but wisdom says that if there is any noticeable wear on your safety device, it's no longer safe.
nice pullingtests , in lifting industry the small latch is to prevent the hooked in loop or shackle to jump out , in a craneboom for instance the flexibility of the boom is sometimes jumping up and down (forward/backwards)
I am subscribed and a patreon. Its worth it guys!
9:11
Quick note about the risks of mussy hooks/open systems unclipping: sadly, there was a recent unfortunate accident involving an UGA student in Alabama dying after making a mistake while cleaning a sports route with mussy hooks at the anchor. The youtube channel 'How To Rock and Alpine Climb' theorizes that this was more or less the cause of the accident, in addition to poor instruction to the student. Sometimes, one in a million events happen sadly.
Few words about the rope coming out (unclipping) of the system during a fall. It is possible and I've seen it in a climbing gym. During a fall from above a small roof the long sling below the roof unclipped. The climber was right above the sling/quickdraw so the rope got loose and created a loop around the carabiner. And probably that's what caused the unclipping. You don't have to fall sideways of the quickdraw, but right above it and have some loosens in the system during the fall. You can try that on the drop tower with different orientations of the carabiner and rope clipped correctly and incorrectly :)
Sound is so much better in your new lab!!!!
Wait...Did you guys see that big beefy shackle bolt bending right before the mussy hook did? That was crazy...I'm guessing it's from all the pull tests over the years that you may have eneeled the metal and made it soft?
If anything the shackle would have work hardened, but the number of load cycles that Ryan has put it through are several orders of magnitude lower than would be required to do so. The only way to anneal metal is to heat it up and let it cool down slowly. See the Wikipedia article for heat treating.
@cameronwebster6866 Work hardening, although it will harden the steel, it will also make it less tough, and more likely to break when put through this type of stress. Toughness vs hardness... an example would be a piece of copper wire, which work hardens very quickly, bend a piece of copper wire over on itself even once, and the second bend back the other way, you will feel the copper is harder at the point of the bend. You won't be able to bend it more than a few times before it breaks, and the point that it breaks will be where the wire was hardened, and thus in turn becomes brittle eventually. I'm pretty sure steel work hardens the same way.
Actually, it'd do the complete opposite if that were the case. Metal becomes harder and more brittle with repeated use. When you can see metal deflecting under load without failing, that shows that you're actually still within the material's strength limits. There are bridges that will deflect under the weight of traffic by a foot or more and still be well within their limits!
Please don't taint your beautiful scientific process with Bill Nye. For the record I believe this channel is already the best one for the niche you represent. I'm not some svelt rock jock - just a guy who has seen and done a ton of down-rigging for concerts and events and had to climb up cable ladders onto suspended lighting trusses and I find you guys to be the most comprehensive source of information backed up with actual demonstration and after action review of the tests. I'd love to see tests of the stuff we use in Entertainment like deck chains which are rated for 6 tons, and the difference between soft spansets and gakflex (steel cored). Love this channel!
I think the mussy hooks and horns are a good idea. I feel like it’s less things to potentially mess up when getting ready to lower. My first time lead climbing I untied without having the rope fixed to something. Fortunately I didn’t drop it and made it back to the ground safely. I knew my mistake as soon as I did it. 🤦🏼♂️ Won’t do it again.
meep
Same. I remember looking at the unsecured rope in my hands thinking "I must be doing this wrong..."
For all those not familiar with Mussy Hooks, let's see if we understand the purpose. You want to top rope, so you rappel down from an anchor you built on the 2 bolts, then climb normally, from a top-roped belay. You built your own anchor so as not to wear out the community rings. When you want to go home, you climb one more time, clip directly into the bolts, disassemble & rack your anchor and then you normally need to untie from your harness, thread through the rings, then re-tie your figure-8. With the Mussy Hooks, you can just insert your rope into the hooks and get lowered, without needing to untie and retie. Makes sense. So why have we been using rings for 20 years?
Because rings are cheaper and still safe. And the way I was taught to clean on rings you don't ever fully untie, just feed a bight thru and clip the new figure 8 before you untie the old one. But it's still more complicated and prone to error than mussies are. I wish mussies were everywhere.
@@strctlykilz Holy crap, what I described is dangerous.. because if you untie and then drop the rope, you're trapped up there. So thanks for reminding me!! I'm not quite visualizing the correct way yet. Please help me out.. I'm at the top. I clipped my daisy chain to bolts, so I'm safe. Then I feed a bight of my rope thru the rings, make an overhand figure-8 on the bight and tie into that with a locking biner (OK to my belay loop?). Now I clean my anchor. Then what? Untie the main Figure-8 from my harness, pass the bitter end through the rings and then back to harness to retie? Then take out the figure-8-on-a-bight and lower down? It seems so obvious when you're doing it at the time, I'm shocked I can't recall.
@@markus717 once you're on the figure eight on a bight with your locking biner and you untie your original eight and feed it thru, you can just lower off on that, no need to retie. And yes the locking biner goes through your belay loop not your hardpoints
@@markus717 I've had to do it the way you described though on a route that only had chain links and didn't have rap rings because I couldn't get a bight through the links. So def good to know how to do it both ways! Never know what you'll find up there
@@strctlykilz Right. Now U reminded me, I'll always put a knot in rope and clip it before untying anything EVEN IF the bight doesn't go thru rings.
liftingchains in the lifting industry are checked for lenght after use , so a chainset is measured at the start of use , and if overloaded the lenght does change significant (30ft lenghts)
Standing or steady loads are good to test, but shock loads are the killers. I used to install and operate theatrical rigging for both scenery and riggers (fall protection). Rarely suffered static overload failures, but shock loads could reck a system. Instantly bending, breaking, and malforming connections, anchors, and shackles.
It would be interesting to see your rig adapted to check equipment under a fall shock load. FYI fall protection regulations require a 5000 pound point when installed in theatrical, concert, and convention spaces.
I don't know if this would apply to permanent climbing points.
Thanks for the interesting video.
i used to work in rigging fittings and those lap links are sold to join up chain that is not to be used for any load bearing uses at all. they are notorious for unbending at the slightest bit of stress
Nitpicking for sure, have just been binging your channel but saying "dont develop routes if you cant afford it" just hit home because I use next to nothing climbing rock since I was young because I loved it (secure now) but exploration is where its at!
The new lab looks beautiful. I can’t wait.
❤️ Those lap links??? WE USE THOSE IN CONSTRUCTION. Use lap links to repair chains, first hammer the gap closed, then weld it. Then anneal it. Not for climbing.
Now I want to see the ramshorns on the drop tower. Some of those worn Mussey hooks too.
I don't climb but breaking stuff is cool so I'm here to see stress tests.
It would be really interesting to do some kind of repetitive load testing on a Mussy hook; take 30 meters of (dirty?) rope, run it through the hook with a load equivalent to what it would see from lowering a climber, and do it multiple thousands of times and see what kind of wear happens on the hook.
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The hook that you guys got from 5 gallon buckets is from one of the most popular climbs at Smith. I have no idea how many people lowered off that, but I'm guessing many thousands.
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Having some solid data on this might encourage people to start lowering off these when top roping as a more regular practice, if they in fact can take multiple thousands of climbers.
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Yes, I understand the current ethic in most places is to not lower on fixed gear. However, if that gear can take thousands of cycles and only costs under $20 to replace, that might start to change the mindset.
4:08 Ryan, soft shackles always seem to keep amazing me with how strong they are!
I love that cute mussy hook sculpture, looks like a moth to me.
Love this channel reminds me of being a teen trying to break the chains with a loader 😂😭
9:20 I've had a carabiner open up exactly like that. Fortunately, I don't climb. I use a giant carabiner to catch mooring balls on my boat. We always put additional lines on after the initial catch with the carabiner, except one day when the wind was particularly light and we thought we'd just do it after checking into trinidad. It's not a good feeling to watch your floating home drift by through a mooring field of very expensive boats. Funny thing is it would have never opened if there had been any pressure on it.
As the mussy hooks were cast in that shape to begin with, they were already unbent when you started. As such, you bent them when you unbent them.
I no longer climb but I watch this for of road recovering and winching excedera so ty
I just encountered my first ram's horn in Albania last week, at Brar. I really liked the simplicity of it, and how easy it would be to replace in the future.
I've been a towing professional for many years and believe that if something is not safe enough for securing cargo, it probably shouldn't be used for life safety. Those quick links and easy links and split c links are banned in towing, but hammerlock, repair clevis links and shackles of sufficient grade are allowed. An important thing to look at on the slip hook is the GRADE of the hardware. Grade 80 and above is for life safety and overhead lifting. Grade 80 slip hook is what is typically used on the winch of a tow truck. Grade 30 is not for anything other than utility. Grade 43 (High Test) is for horizontal use and is okay for safety on utility trailers, dragging logs, etc. Grade 70, shown here, is for commercial highway safety, transport, and lifting which is not overhead or life safety.
I have no idea about any of this but I'm happy to be here
Fantastic video clip 👌 looking in from Ireland 🇮🇪
Fun! Love the carnage 👍. I might even get the climbing bug again… might have to lose some weight 😮 it’s been 30 years 😂
I would love to see you test rope rescue gear! MPD, Maestro, Clutch, NFPA rated class 3 harness, an Aztec kit, maybe some tripods?
I like the idea up pull testing the Aztec !
I've never gone rock climbing in my life but I use that style of hook at the ends of my logging chains and they regularly are used to lift logs that weigh thousands of lbs so I would be fine trusting one to hold my weight.
I will say this, as someone who does alot of material lifting. Gates are usually messed up by the user on those hooks. It's mostly people not fully latching ropes inside.
Awesome episode! New rig looks sweet
I hope your income is super good enough soon! Love the work and content!!
When I was an outdoor instructor, to give a bit of confidence to the kids, I'd point out the 22kn rating on the kit and drop the fact that our 16 seater minibus weighed less then that! As soon as I saw the worn mussi hooks, my instant response was "Yeah, that would still hold the minibus". I haven't worked as an outdoor instructor for about 20 years and I still remember stuff like that...... and the safety talks for EVERTHING we did at our outdoor center!! I was also right that the mussi hook would hold a minibus 🤣🤣🤣🤣
Just remember that holding something is much much easier than catching a fall of that same thing!
Awsome channel guys, would love to see more super slowmo. Thanks
New lab looks amazing!!
That mussy punch was awesome!
How have I never not seen this channel?
I was climbing on sandstone in Germany and they had some quite worn down rams horns, I just put in my own retreat beener as I thought the sharp edges were a concern. can you break test some of those with rope?
17:36 may be exactly people click off when you say but wait don't leave and only X% are subscribed
I once inspected a 10 ton coffing electric chain hoist that the customer had ground over half of the top of the upper hook off to make it fit the home made trolley. Needless to say, he got a red tag instead of a state cert.
Thanks!
Thank you!
Bobby saving lives all over
0:46 This is the kind of incredible sass that you can only get on HowNOT2
17:37 ive been called out i just unfullscreened
This was my first time seeing your channel and I hit subscribe just before you showed the new machine. I'm not a climber an not likely to buy stuff from the sight but I love information and engineering stuff. If you ever want help in materials or manufacturing reach out.
Nice!
With the worn mussy I'm but worried about the hook, rather how relatively sharp edges affects the rope. As hard is easy has shown..
5:00
Where does it have sharp edges? Wouldn’t any sharp edge get worn down by all the ropes before it could even develop?
Learned this a long time ago aboard a not very big tractor (Massey 2800) in Ontario Canada while trying to recover another tractor. I was lucky that the hook and cable that it was attached to missed me when it let go. The hook was rated for more weight than the stuck tractor, but let go before the chain that was connected to the 3 point.
Result number two is why they tell you to get far and wide away from cables when you're pulling and towing or otherwise getting a vehicle unstuck using winch and cable(steel chain/hooks) methods.
The new lab looks great.
mussy accidents, had one here in israel 20 years ago....a pair were practicing top belay on a single pitch route. leader climbed onto a ledge above the mussy and anchored himself to a tree. he then brought up his second who cleaned the route on the way up and then lowered off....leader then clipped into the mussy below him, untied his tree anchor and then while climbing down over the ledge became unclipped from the mussy and fell 26 metres. not clear from the report if there were two mussy hooks or just one.
And as always: if you are unsure, question.
In industrial applications here in Holland we would not be allowed to use mussy hooks that are that worn.
Love how over-engineered these things are, at no point are you really going to need more than 20kN for a single rock climber, but all of this stuff is built to withstand so much more.
I lowered off of those same claws at smith, great climb. I did make a comment about how I would totally still whip on them looking like that.
It’s a ramfly, they’re all over southern Utah in Escalante Canyon
In the uk it is considered poor form to top rope on the fixed anchor. Every one i know will top rope off there own gear clipped to the anchors ( usually two quick draws cliped oposing each other ).
This is done to minimize wear on the gear in the wall wich is harder to replace. However this asside it is always nice when there is a rams horn/pig tail lower off. Regardless of how easy the lower off is though and whever or not you need to untie i personally think and i someone is lacking knowledge of how to clean an anchor safely they should let an experienced climber clean it (someone ones put the top rope in even if it means they have to climb the route twice).
In the uk atleast every gym has a board of all posible anchors where you can go practice cleaninf in a safe place. I see so many first timers being shouted at by there freind at the bottom of the route with instructions on how to do this dangerous thing they are about to do and it makes me cringe everytime. I sometimes even interupt and offer to climb and retrive there gear myself.
All for things to make the process safer though for all concerned and really wish we had more bolted anchors at the top of our trad routes in the uk
Even very experienced climbers make mistakes and die tying and untying at anchors. There is always a complacency factor that will kill you when you think you know what you are doing.
As a horse rider, I just worry about the mussy stabbing someone on the way down.
Horse gear tends to use hooks and if your horse spooks they can impale themselves in it.
Love the new lab!
Would love to see a hammer on chain link tested vs an open slip link, both can be changed but the hammer on requires a hammer and chisel to remove which would aid in theft prevention
New testing idea. Exploring working load or heavy haul/use wear and tear. How many times, at a moderate pull, until the gear breaks.
Would be interested to see a test of whether the worn notch would actually damage a rope at a certain point. Even if its not sharp, there have been cases where a relatively dull edge on a carabiner has cut a rope