Every time I go to a show I walk around the entire venue and I'm always amazed at the differences in sound mixes and quality. Almost always there is a spot about halfway back in the middle where I camp out until the sound guy tells me to get out of his booth. So territorial.
1000% this!!! if the promoter insists on "stereo" subs I sometimes will set them up and just not use one side. (same if I'm touring and come to a venue with stereo subs) inevitably comments are "the bass was the best sound ever!!"
don't forget that the guests also hear what they see. so the decoy stack will help guests have a better overall experience not having to think and discuss about the "strange" asymetric setup of subwoofers. thanks for uploading!
@@devinlsheets_alphasound Lee Sklar legendary bass guitarist has a Knob on his bass guitar that does nothing so whenever an engineer asks him to tweek his sound he will turn the fake knob and the engineer will time after time say "that was perfect" on the second take.
You folks make great videos. I just did this to one of my systems and it's significantly better. I was married to the idea of stereo bass... not any more. I'm learning loads from every video of yours I watch. Thanks, cheers!
Took me back to an early 1990’s graduate school class in engineering vibrations when the professor decided to talk practical applications. He taught acoustics and this was the type of examples he would use for 2D waves, nodes, and dead space.
This answered my question. I have two 15" full range speakers in my large shop, one mid-height in each corner. I've always notice a huge dip in LF response in the front-center of the room (to the point of almost nothing there). I always figured it was cancellation, but your software showed exactly what is going on.
@@dtibor5903 he also needs to take in to account the enviroment. phase cancellation is only a part of the issue. if he was truely out of phase the bass would still sound weak even if he was off axis from both speakers.
indoors in a room is going to react different from something like a open venu with a massive array of speakers. in a room you have walls that the sound waves can bounce off of.
I've been doing this for exactly 3 years now at church with 200 seat capacity before I came across this vid. And I tell ya, wow I can confirm that it does work! Whether using a single unit or a stacked 2 piece single 18" active subs, they work fine and the bass information travels to the back audience gently and nicely. No hyped areas and frequencies. And depends on your routing, filtering and tuning/eq as well affects the quality and power the subs deliver. Thanks, I've been following this channel for quite some time now. And you guys rock!
Ps. On the 3rd year though I separated the 2 subs back to L/R setup except they're still not stereo. I only send the kick to one sub and the bass on the other. It's also a different effect. But both practices still work anyhow!
Basically. They should have communicated for a better solution for the placement of the banner at the front of the stage. The banner should have been redesigned or the budget on the banner spent on alternative placements that would be more effective than a banner that will quickly become covered if any decent number of people attend the event.
0:38 It's nice to see a graphical explanation of what is occurring, I detected this at a night club where the DJ had Stereo subs with pole mounted tops.
You could add delay from right to left facing the stage to make the volume of the subs more consistent for the other side of the stage. Adding incremental delay from right to left would steer your bass energy more to the left.
Audience members will also position themselves closer to the subs if they want a lot of low end, or farther away from the subs if they don't want a lot of low end. So the falloff on the first row will tend to self correct itself with regard to what experience the audience member is looking for (assuming they have the ability to move around - ie not assigned seats).
Yeah, this is one solution. Or you do it like Dave Rat and send different signals to the subs left and right to avoid interferences. For Example BD in left, BD out right, Bass Mic left, Bass DI right... If the Keys and Synths, samplers etc are true stereo this should work for most live band situations with stereo subs...
There will be and always has been multiple ways to skin a cat. I have a solution I've been itching to try but have yet to have the opportunity to do. So for your normal gig that has a drum set with a kick drum, I use a 56Hz sine wave generator gated and side-chained to the kick mic channel, so when you hit the kick, it opens the gate for just a second and you get a nice low short 56Hz burst. That's what I use for my low-end in the subwoofers. Already, the solution I'd love to try is to get a 2nd generator, that also makes a 56Hz wave and gate it the exact same way, so the perceived sound will be the same, but in terms of physics it will be different enough to significantly reduce the comb filtering, since the variations is 2 generators would probably be enough different. Idk, I haven't done it yet like I said because I haven't had an opportunity to, but I'm very curious to try it.
There will still be a lot of similarity in the sound wave when comparing Bass DI and Bass Mic for example, so you'll still get some level of summing and cancellation.
this makes so much sense!.. that's why i always had problems with my stereo setup in my room and having a lot of bass blind spots when both full range boxes were playing... not to mention phase shifts from reflections off the walls.. but this fact makes the point od my problem much clearer for me
Wow Devin! such good info. I currently have my subs setup on the sides, but in mono. I guess I just have to set up enough subs to complete the bridge between the two! problem solved.
I would probably stick to using stereo subs, but use 2 different mics for bass guitar and kick-drum, the small difference in notes is enough to avoid much of the comb filtering.
Way beyond most sound system set ups! You should get more gigs. Unfortunately, most people in these types of events are drunk or stoned and couldn't tell the difference anyway (this includes the "management" and performers). Any more Alpha Stream recordings coming? They are great!!
Nice to hear that somebody wants more Alpha Stream content! We kinda put that on the back burner but maybe we'll give it some more love! Did you get the Sony headphones?
@@devinlsheets_alphasound I have some rare Rockford "Punch Plugs", but mostly listen with my current project*: EATS. These are near field, full range ~5" cube, single driver (phase coherent), speakers with built in >50 W ("RMS") amplifier and an Analog Devices DSP. They go down below 30 Hz, flat at a fairly high SPL! The amplifier is low THD of course, but also uses current feed-back so the THD from the speaker is also very low. If I lean a bit forward to center my head, I get a good Binaural image of your recordings with these. I am a retired Engineer, so this is my pet project. When I was young I was very much into Audio i.e. built a 40W stereo tube amp at 14. I still have an autographed copy of Sound System Engineering from the 70s I got at one of the first classes of Don & Carolyn Davis in L.A. * EATS: Electro Acoustic Transducer System. The "system" is a "bespoke" Amplifier, DSP and full-range Driver all in a small custom polycarbonate enclosure.
could've just placed the subs in a horizontal line under the stage behind the banner far enough away so air wouldnt move them you might have to time them some. You might get stage resonance from the subs under the stage. I see what your getting at but a center cluster will do similar and be more even across the whole field. You could also try phasing cabs differently to control the parabala or wave front or beam/patern from the subs. I like uniformity from the stage
Unless you are listening to Protracker module music, bass doesn't need to have much stereo separation. Even on dubplate records, where the bass NEEDS to be mono, it still sounds good.
Yes and no, bass can be mono as a signal, however when placing subwoofers left and right, they do blend in better with the main loudspeakers to extend the lower frequencies, and the perception of the stereo seperation sounds richer. My honest opinion upon my critical listening over time. But there can be some sort of variables that we can't imagine how my equipment in one room will sound different from another or.... you got the idea, sound treatment blah blah...
Hang on? If a person not moving around won’t know there may be a 4db difference elsewhere, then just do a stereo sub as the same applies to everyone that is just sat. You’ve just answered your question right there. None moving people won’t know where dead spots are.
Good question, the thing to remember is that with stereo subs, different frequencies cancel at different spots out in the venue. It’s one thing to have a slightly less or slightly more amount of base overall, it’s a totally other thing to have a drastically different balance of frequency ranges in that range. To us, we’d much rather have smooth bass that varies a little bit in SPL for some listeners than drastically bad sounding bass for a majority of listeners
Thank you so much for making this video! The concept of stereo bass did never make any sense to me because of the physical properties of the bass sound waves. In every location I know they use the simple setup of one sub L, the other one R and I always wonder why they never think about (or even hear...) the comb filtering effect. The solution is so easy and still many people don't want to understand or like a sub "stack" on one side only..
Personally I like my stereo subwoofer setup, (maybe because I'm a "hybrid audiophile") in my honest opinion upon my observations doing critical listening and mucking around 🤣👍 (because we learn from the mistakes we make... that's another story LoL) it sounds more balanced compared to a stacked up subwoofer hotspot. If anything, adding a stereo subwoofer setup in the rear sections to reinforce isn't a bad idea.
Yeah, comb filtering is only one frequency in each corridor location & another frequency in another set of locations, it's not the whole sub band in any one location, so you could use similar minimal effects reasoning to justify 2 separate sub clusters. In fact, in most indoor venues you get oh so much worse room mode cancellations & nobody notice that one note in every octave is completely missing for them. So comb filtering is in reality, not a big deal, in fact it's normally present across the whole spectrum in the majority of auditoriums. Only in concert halls designs complying with the Bolt plane is this effect minimised, not completely cancelled though. Alternatively, a line array of subs across the centre stage front would merge the sub wave dispersion into a flat line across the majority audience which would be a more even dispersion across the audience. Just putting the banner across the top of that pavilion will solve your problem & please the venue managers too.
I would try to put these in row in the front of the stage and then put two of them in cardioid mode. That would give nice conttrolled directivity withouth too much extra bass for the band. But if that is no option I prefer this mono setup too.
Surely you'll want to place the sub stack in the middle for an even distribution from the stage? Nice technique, bass is always best in mono anyway so this is how d&b/F1 should be running sound spaces
its the one thing that reay bothered me in lots of veues ... unfortunatly speakers tend to be placed for convenience or well thats just how its done elsewhere. one venue i look after has the subs in centre, so much bett but theres a room mode at 50h infront of the subs... at the back of the room sub is huge nut the further forward you go it starts dropping out.
would stereo subs pointed 45 degrees outwards not have a more impressive result than a loss of bass for everyone sitting front left? Depends on the neighbors i guess and how powerful your system is. What about phase shifting the lower frequencies so the right stack shifts up 20hz and the left stack shifts bass down 20hz? this should allow the interference patterns to smooth out somewhat. I have seen that trick that removes feedback with many mics on stage, why not play with that a bit more to try to fix the interference pattern? Another solution might be to keep your stack on the right but add one additional sub close to the front right stage corner or even to the left of the audience to fill that null.
Pointing a subwoofer outwards doesn't benefit you much at all. After all they produce sound pretty much in a circular fassion around them selfs. If you really want to make a difference you take 2 different signals to each side. Therefore removing almost all types of combfiltering. Similar to a brass band, which can have it's lowest instruments across the room and not expriencing too much of destructive interference
What happens at big festivals, like Parookaville, where I counted something like 48-64 L-Acoustics KS28s? I mean, the bass was not lacking by any stretch of the imagination.
I feel like, when I go to a concert, that very much of the sub is being absorbed by the bodies people of people in the first 10 meters next to the subwoofers. Is that true? And why are subs never hung up, like maybe in the top-middle of the stage? Thx for the quality vids!
There is a vid showing the audio setup for bassnectar, and they showed almost akin to a line array, a hanging array of subs, and at least one mounted backwards in the array. He was banned from Redrocks... the locals thought there was an earthquake
Efficiency: having subs suspended in the air you are projecting into "fullspace", subs on the ground is "halfspace" and you get a 6 db boost in volume which is equal to doubling the sub count. Even better on the ground against a wall and you are now in "1/4 space" and get a 12 db boost, on the ground in a corner you are in "1/8 space" and get 18db boost. Try it with your cell phone: play a tune and hold the phone in the air, then put it on the ground and then on the ground against a wall, then a corner. The boost in efficiency will be very noticeable.
So just toss time alignment out the door then for the folks on the SR side? Within 20-60 ft of stage (front row/sections), often times these are the people paying extra for optimal view and sound. This setup though “works” for the software, is detrimental to the value expected for the $$. Audio is multi sensory-both hearing and physical-especially in the low end-and the brain will process this as “off” because it won’t feel correct. Same experience as when all the sudden one side of the PA cuts out in the middle of a song-we process it as “something doesn’t sound or feel right” The explanation that basically tricking the audience cause they won’t know the difference walking in is a lazy way of not doing the job properly. Setting the subs on each side still covers the audience properly and better than the few seats affected by comb filtering/antinode despite what the best guess software says. Use your ears first.
Just a thought. Up until about 6 years ago every concert I ever went to the sound was in mono as best I could tell. Then over in York, PA at the fair they had a free country music small set up,but it was in stereo. That was a wonderful experience. I have to say I find it weak when time after time the general thinking is that the sub woofer can be only one speaker claiming stereo on the low bass end does not matter. Now in your case saying that the bass from each woofer was canceling out the other woofer bass can happen if one or more of the drivers are wired wrong or the speaker connection, or they are placed to close together and firing directly or almost at each other. Now it is true if you have two bass speaker boxed side by side and have the same signal going to both and one speaker is wired with the plus and the minus on the wrong terminals they will cancel each other out. Just the same way if you have two bass speakers side by side but aiming at the opposite direction, they will cancel each other out.
How do you then align your array with your subs? Are you not going to have phase issues around the crossover point between the two? It might be ok at the back but in the main audience section your stage left array would be delayed differently from your right to align with the subs.
This is what I say about putting subs in Harley saddle bags. I’m not sure , but it seems to me , if you put two subs facing each other , one in each bag , you would get a lot of comb filtering ?? Anyone know more about this ??
@Jonathan LaPointe yes it is. I’m asking if the woofers would cancel in anyway. Not an expert , why is this question so ridiculous ?? And then I take it the answer is of course not ??
Can i place 1 sub per side the left and the right sides of the stage and place 1 sub also in the middle of the stage? Like 18in sub on the left and right side of the stage and 12in in the middle of the stage. Is it ok? Is it allowable? Thank...
Actually, we would love to be able to stack all six subs up in a straight column when we have to put them all over on the side like this. Then, we would have some directional control at least at the higher mid-bass frequencies.
So basically, because LR is the worst possible configuration and a center cluster isn't always an option. Do you delay the "weak" side of the array to compensate for the distance difference then too?
We don't delay the other array, we've tried that before but it shifts the stereo image for the whole audience in a strange way. Think about what the delay on just that side means for those sitting over on the subwoofer side...
What program do you use to simulate the speakers? Is there any available for non-professionals? I would like to find some good universal positions for setting up subwoofers outdoors as an amateur DJ.
@@devinlsheets_alphasound I don't know I do like to take pictures of all the equipment and figure out how it's connected for some strange reason then I start wondering what their crossover setting is, Power distribution................ the Last 2 concerts I went to they asked for help tearing down. One of them was better than the concert since everybody was wearing earplugs anyway because it was so loud.
Yeah great question. The banner is really thick and it messes up how the subs sound. For one, it makes a flapping noise when the base hits really hard. Also, putting them that far under the stage shakes the stage itself a lot, and makes the subs sound boxy
As a drummer I like to be on the opposite side of the stage as most of the sound. I dont like to be in the middle. I prefer more of a mono sound stage vs stereo.
You invest a lot in sounding good. I was few years ago at an event where there was 2 subs and they were out of phase 180 degrees. In the middle there was zero bass. What the heck
People who sit on the side where no subs are AND complaining about "lacking base"? How stupid can audience be? Is there any limit? Anyway, it is always best to center all the subs on one center stack. Banner is not as important as subs.
It's not a bad idea, as long as the stage isn't very deep or doing that doesn't cause other problems like make musicians angry about the amount of subwoofer information on stage. Also, doing that would ruin the purpose of a cardioid setup if you wanted to reject bass on stage. You'd also have to consider the acoustic response of having the subs behind the stage... what is the bass going to have to travel through to get to the audience? Other than that, having the subs in omni mode behind the stage would actually allow the mains to be delayed a few feet to compensate and could actually sound really good!
Does this require that stack of subs to be controlled like an array? I'm running 2 subs on the edges of my stage at the moment, I'm wondering if I can just place them side by side in the center (we have room for that).
Hello , i have in my small room a system with 4 15" subwoorers PA type and i have most of the bass in the corners of the room , how can i solve that? I have a video on my channel about how i placed those subs . Video is called " 4 15s playing dale papi "
This video is specifically talking about OUTDOOR subwoofers. Everything changes when you're indoors. In a normal room, your subs will tend to be near walls or corners, which can massively amplify certain frequencies, and negate other frequencies. For inside, use stereo. Simple as that.
wavelengths are so much shorter that the null zones of various frequencies would only be a few inches (as opposed to several feet wide with subs) so you wouldn't notice it.
Eso mismo me pregunté, supongo que si seria lo mismo o talvez mejor pero el problema es si el arreglo es grande terminará estorbando visualmente al grupo o evento.
maybe. it would be a LOT of bass for them (even more than it already is!), and would shake things quite a bit more. It also might sound strange having to essentially go through the stage and tent. But also, we haven't tried that so we can't really say it wouldn't work!
@@devinlsheets_alphasound as a (former, i'm on a sabbatical until my kids grow a bit older) bassist myself, i don't think it would be a big deal and i think it would be worth a try on a small gig, but i am an amateur behind the sound desk, and have no formal training, so all of the following is pure speculation and anecdotal evidence on my part. Back before i had kids, and i played live, we often had our amps at the back serving as monitors more than anything else, mine was to the side of the drummer. as for the sound "going through" things, bass is the most penetrating of all the audible frequencies, and should hold up fine to a tent, and a horizontal stage, it might cause a few loose bolts to buzz or rattle, but that's always a risk wherever the stack is. Looking at your visualisation, it might have to be 6db louder than if it were at the front, but that might not be required, depending on the chosen sweet spot of the listener. If it's not shaking your chest cavity, it's not loud enough /s thanks for the interesting video.
Every time I go to a show I walk around the entire venue and I'm always amazed at the differences in sound mixes and quality. Almost always there is a spot about halfway back in the middle where I camp out until the sound guy tells me to get out of his booth. So territorial.
I must admit you got me in the first half
Haha fucking gold.
Lol. True.
Sweet spot 🔊🔈🔉🤣👍
🤣😂👍
1000% this!!! if the promoter insists on "stereo" subs I sometimes will set them up and just not use one side. (same if I'm touring and come to a venue with stereo subs) inevitably comments are "the bass was the best sound ever!!"
We've thought about making some fake look-alike cabinets to put on the other side if the client doesn't like how the mono side-setup looks!
don't forget that the guests also hear what they see. so the decoy stack will help guests have a better overall experience not having to think and discuss about the "strange" asymetric setup of subwoofers. thanks for uploading!
hahah, that is of course a neat trick ! very good :)
@@devinlsheets_alphasound Lee Sklar legendary bass guitarist has a Knob on his bass guitar that does nothing so whenever an engineer asks him to tweek his sound he will turn the fake knob and the engineer will time after time say "that was perfect" on the second take.
You folks make great videos. I just did this to one of my systems and it's significantly better. I was married to the idea of stereo bass... not any more. I'm learning loads from every video of yours I watch. Thanks, cheers!
Took me back to an early 1990’s graduate school class in engineering vibrations when the professor decided to talk practical applications. He taught acoustics and this was the type of examples he would use for 2D waves, nodes, and dead space.
This answered my question. I have two 15" full range speakers in my large shop, one mid-height in each corner. I've always notice a huge dip in LF response in the front-center of the room (to the point of almost nothing there). I always figured it was cancellation, but your software showed exactly what is going on.
Probably your speakers are out of phase. Swap the wire polarity at one of the speakers
@@dtibor5903 he also needs to take in to account the enviroment. phase cancellation is only a part of the issue. if he was truely out of phase the bass would still sound weak even if he was off axis from both speakers.
indoors in a room is going to react different from something like a open venu with a massive array of speakers. in a room you have walls that the sound waves can bounce off of.
I've been doing this for exactly 3 years now at church with 200 seat capacity before I came across this vid. And I tell ya, wow I can confirm that it does work! Whether using a single unit or a stacked 2 piece single 18" active subs, they work fine and the bass information travels to the back audience gently and nicely. No hyped areas and frequencies. And depends on your routing, filtering and tuning/eq as well affects the quality and power the subs deliver.
Thanks, I've been following this channel for quite some time now. And you guys rock!
Ps. On the 3rd year though I separated the 2 subs back to L/R setup except they're still not stereo. I only send the kick to one sub and the bass on the other. It's also a different effect. But both practices still work anyhow!
Basically. They should have communicated for a better solution for the placement of the banner at the front of the stage. The banner should have been redesigned or the budget on the banner spent on alternative placements that would be more effective than a banner that will quickly become covered if any decent number of people attend the event.
You should come apply to be the stage designer!
@@devinlsheets_alphasound we can never foresee everything. It was a good solution. If i ever get any time i might play around with this config.
0:38 It's nice to see a graphical explanation of what is occurring, I detected this at a night club where the DJ had Stereo subs with pole mounted tops.
1:54 To add to that, "ideal" loudness is not an absolute. Some might prefer a sub that's 4 db louder, some might prefer one that's 4 db quieter
You could add delay from right to left facing the stage to make the volume of the subs more consistent for the other side of the stage. Adding incremental delay from right to left would steer your bass energy more to the left.
True! Although with such a small setup, it's barely noticeable. If the stack was six-wide then it would start to become very noticeable.
Also your audience gets to chose how much bass they want
I always choose to stand right infront on the subs 😂.
@@sagarchawla8145 indeed! the pleasure of subwoofer punch and bass. that directly hitting our chest were feel so good! 😁
May I put my head inside the vent port, please?
@@Alkatross you have no idea how badly we want to make this happen for you.
_How much bass do you want?_
*...YES*
Audience members will also position themselves closer to the subs if they want a lot of low end, or farther away from the subs if they don't want a lot of low end. So the falloff on the first row will tend to self correct itself with regard to what experience the audience member is looking for (assuming they have the ability to move around - ie not assigned seats).
This is a great video and it’s true. People look at me like I’m crazy when I don’t put a sub on each side
All true in open space. Inside multiple subs can be beneficial when dealing with room modes.
Yeah, this is one solution. Or you do it like Dave Rat and send different signals to the subs left and right to avoid interferences. For Example BD in left, BD out right, Bass Mic left, Bass DI right... If the Keys and Synths, samplers etc are true stereo this should work for most live band situations with stereo subs...
There will be and always has been multiple ways to skin a cat. I have a solution I've been itching to try but have yet to have the opportunity to do. So for your normal gig that has a drum set with a kick drum, I use a 56Hz sine wave generator gated and side-chained to the kick mic channel, so when you hit the kick, it opens the gate for just a second and you get a nice low short 56Hz burst. That's what I use for my low-end in the subwoofers. Already, the solution I'd love to try is to get a 2nd generator, that also makes a 56Hz wave and gate it the exact same way, so the perceived sound will be the same, but in terms of physics it will be different enough to significantly reduce the comb filtering, since the variations is 2 generators would probably be enough different. Idk, I haven't done it yet like I said because I haven't had an opportunity to, but I'm very curious to try it.
As long as the information is truly stereo, you’re good. But sometimes it isn’t.
There will still be a lot of similarity in the sound wave when comparing Bass DI and Bass Mic for example, so you'll still get some level of summing and cancellation.
@@LukeEsther - the mic will be milliseconds later than the Di, curious if this is enough?
@@regortex3364 pure delay doesn't solve the problem it just moves the cancellation points into different places.
this makes so much sense!.. that's why i always had problems with my stereo setup in my room and having a lot of bass blind spots when both full range boxes were playing... not to mention phase shifts from reflections off the walls.. but this fact makes the point od my problem much clearer for me
In room and open space is 2 vastly different things. Indoors you want multiple subwoofer locations as it evens out the response in the room.
Wow Devin! such good info. I currently have my subs setup on the sides, but in mono. I guess I just have to set up enough subs to complete the bridge between the two! problem solved.
I walk the venue every time. Everybody gets a drink, picks a spot real quick, and I make my rounds. Come back with a selected area in mind. LOL
Interesting. It makes perfect sense, and passes the intuition test, but I've never given it that much thought before. Very good to know.
That's a good way to look at it!
I would probably stick to using stereo subs, but use 2 different mics for bass guitar and kick-drum, the small difference in notes is enough to avoid much of the comb filtering.
Way beyond most sound system set ups! You should get more gigs. Unfortunately, most people in these types of events are drunk or stoned and couldn't tell the difference anyway (this includes the "management" and performers). Any more Alpha Stream recordings coming? They are great!!
Nice to hear that somebody wants more Alpha Stream content! We kinda put that on the back burner but maybe we'll give it some more love! Did you get the Sony headphones?
@@devinlsheets_alphasound I have some rare Rockford "Punch Plugs", but mostly listen with my current project*: EATS. These are near field, full range ~5" cube, single driver (phase coherent), speakers with built in >50 W ("RMS") amplifier and an Analog Devices DSP. They go down below 30 Hz, flat at a fairly high SPL! The amplifier is low THD of course, but also uses current feed-back so the THD from the speaker is also very low. If I lean a bit forward to center my head, I get a good Binaural image of your recordings with these.
I am a retired Engineer, so this is my pet project. When I was young I was very much into Audio i.e. built a 40W stereo tube amp at 14. I still have an autographed copy of Sound System Engineering from the 70s I got at one of the first classes of Don & Carolyn Davis in L.A.
* EATS: Electro Acoustic Transducer System. The "system" is a "bespoke" Amplifier, DSP and full-range Driver all in a small custom polycarbonate enclosure.
@@devinlsheets_alphasound wow! Would love to hear it! Kindly test it out! Stereo subs vs mono! Difference!
Our ears still work when we're shit-housed. Most people just aren't sound engineers to start with anyhow
could've just placed the subs in a horizontal line under the stage behind the banner far enough away so air wouldnt move them you might have to time them some. You might get stage resonance from the subs under the stage. I see what your getting at but a center cluster will do similar and be more even across the whole field. You could also try phasing cabs differently to control the parabala or wave front or beam/patern from the subs. I like uniformity from the stage
Unless you are listening to Protracker module music, bass doesn't need to have much stereo separation. Even on dubplate records, where the bass NEEDS to be mono, it still sounds good.
Yes and no, bass can be mono as a signal, however when placing subwoofers left and right, they do blend in better with the main loudspeakers to extend the lower frequencies, and the perception of the stereo seperation sounds richer. My honest opinion upon my critical listening over time. But there can be some sort of variables that we can't imagine how my equipment in one room will sound different from another or.... you got the idea, sound treatment blah blah...
Hang on? If a person not moving around won’t know there may be a 4db difference elsewhere, then just do a stereo sub as the same applies to everyone that is just sat. You’ve just answered your question right there. None moving people won’t know where dead spots are.
Good question, the thing to remember is that with stereo subs, different frequencies cancel at different spots out in the venue. It’s one thing to have a slightly less or slightly more amount of base overall, it’s a totally other thing to have a drastically different balance of frequency ranges in that range. To us, we’d much rather have smooth bass that varies a little bit in SPL for some listeners than drastically bad sounding bass for a majority of listeners
Thank you so much for making this video!
The concept of stereo bass did never make any sense to me because of the physical properties of the bass sound waves.
In every location I know they use the simple setup of one sub L, the other one R and I always wonder why they never think about (or even hear...) the comb filtering effect. The solution is so easy and still many people don't want to understand or like a sub "stack" on one side only..
Just ignorance. I saw huge stage with subs out of phase and the audio tech guy didn't know what is happening
Personally I like my stereo subwoofer setup, (maybe because I'm a "hybrid audiophile") in my honest opinion upon my observations doing critical listening and mucking around 🤣👍 (because we learn from the mistakes we make... that's another story LoL) it sounds more balanced compared to a stacked up subwoofer hotspot. If anything, adding a stereo subwoofer setup in the rear sections to reinforce isn't a bad idea.
0:52
used.
You got it right on. Same concept works in a room with stereo.
Just place subs in the middle and put the banner on the subs
that would sound interesting
Yeah, comb filtering is only one frequency in each corridor location & another frequency in another set of locations, it's not the whole sub band in any one location, so you could use similar minimal effects reasoning to justify 2 separate sub clusters. In fact, in most indoor venues you get oh so much worse room mode cancellations & nobody notice that one note in every octave is completely missing for them. So comb filtering is in reality, not a big deal, in fact it's normally present across the whole spectrum in the majority of auditoriums. Only in concert halls designs complying with the Bolt plane is this effect minimised, not completely cancelled though.
Alternatively, a line array of subs across the centre stage front would merge the sub wave dispersion into a flat line across the majority audience which would be a more even dispersion across the audience. Just putting the banner across the top of that pavilion will solve your problem & please the venue managers too.
I would try to put these in row in the front of the stage and then put two of them in cardioid mode. That would give nice conttrolled directivity withouth too much extra bass for the band. But if that is no option I prefer this mono setup too.
why not evenly spread across the front then?
Surely you'll want to place the sub stack in the middle for an even distribution from the stage? Nice technique, bass is always best in mono anyway so this is how d&b/F1 should be running sound spaces
Yeah i dont understand why they are off to the side either. If anyone could explain
its the one thing that reay bothered me in lots of veues ... unfortunatly speakers tend to be placed for convenience or well thats just how its done elsewhere.
one venue i look after has the subs in centre, so much bett but theres a room mode at 50h infront of the subs... at the back of the room sub is huge nut the further forward you go it starts dropping out.
Could be that the length of the room is a harmonic of 50hz and so you get that standing wave with a null point closer to the stage.
There's dozens of things that you wish were different at any given gig, but unfortunately like everything in life, you're forced to make compromises.
great explanation and visuals to help us understand the outdoor setup for subs.
Great info! Now comes the hard part: convincing promoters and event managers.
Btw what’s the software you guys use for these simulations?
It‘s NS-1 from Nexo
Put them along the front of the stage and move the banner. Looks better anyway
but then we don't get to make a youtube video
Why you not place the sub's behind or under the stage
would stereo subs pointed 45 degrees outwards not have a more impressive result than a loss of bass for everyone sitting front left? Depends on the neighbors i guess and how powerful your system is. What about phase shifting the lower frequencies so the right stack shifts up 20hz and the left stack shifts bass down 20hz? this should allow the interference patterns to smooth out somewhat.
I have seen that trick that removes feedback with many mics on stage, why not play with that a bit more to try to fix the interference pattern?
Another solution might be to keep your stack on the right but add one additional sub close to the front right stage corner or even to the left of the audience to fill that null.
We have experimented with a lot of these same things. They're super interesting!
Pointing a subwoofer outwards doesn't benefit you much at all. After all they produce sound pretty much in a circular fassion around them selfs. If you really want to make a difference you take 2 different signals to each side. Therefore removing almost all types of combfiltering. Similar to a brass band, which can have it's lowest instruments across the room and not expriencing too much of destructive interference
Nice rig! Thanks for sharing
What happens at big festivals, like Parookaville, where I counted something like 48-64 L-Acoustics KS28s? I mean, the bass was not lacking by any stretch of the imagination.
Your clothes move...
I feel like, when I go to a concert, that very much of the sub is being absorbed by the bodies people of people in the first 10 meters next to the subwoofers. Is that true? And why are subs never hung up, like maybe in the top-middle of the stage? Thx for the quality vids!
There is a vid showing the audio setup for bassnectar, and they showed almost akin to a line array, a hanging array of subs, and at least one mounted backwards in the array. He was banned from Redrocks... the locals thought there was an earthquake
@@gottabtru1 holy shit
Efficiency: having subs suspended in the air you are projecting into "fullspace", subs on the ground is "halfspace" and you get a 6 db boost in volume which is equal to doubling the sub count. Even better on the ground against a wall and you are now in "1/4 space" and get a 12 db boost, on the ground in a corner you are in "1/8 space" and get 18db boost.
Try it with your cell phone: play a tune and hold the phone in the air, then put it on the ground and then on the ground against a wall, then a corner. The boost in efficiency will be very noticeable.
So just toss time alignment out the door then for the folks on the SR side? Within 20-60 ft of stage (front row/sections), often times these are the people paying extra for optimal view and sound. This setup though “works” for the software, is detrimental to the value expected for the $$. Audio is multi sensory-both hearing and physical-especially in the low end-and the brain will process this as “off” because it won’t feel correct. Same experience as when all the sudden one side of the PA cuts out in the middle of a song-we process it as “something doesn’t sound or feel right” The explanation that basically tricking the audience cause they won’t know the difference walking in is a lazy way of not doing the job properly. Setting the subs on each side still covers the audience properly and better than the few seats affected by comb filtering/antinode despite what the best guess software says. Use your ears first.
Just a thought. Up until about 6 years ago every concert I ever went to the sound was in mono as best I could tell. Then over in York, PA at the fair they had a free country music small set up,but it was in stereo. That was a wonderful experience.
I have to say I find it weak when time after time the general thinking is that the sub woofer can be only one speaker claiming stereo on the low bass end does not matter. Now in your case saying that the bass from each woofer was canceling out the other woofer bass can happen if one or more of the drivers are wired wrong or the speaker connection, or they are placed to close together and firing directly or almost at each other. Now it is true if you have two bass speaker boxed side by side and have the same signal going to both and one speaker is wired with the plus and the minus on the wrong terminals they will cancel each other out. Just the same way if you have two bass speakers side by side but aiming at the opposite direction, they will cancel each other out.
Please look up how interference works
What about alignment with tops on the "no sub" location?
..... I hear crickets.....
Alignment might not be as important as people think
How do you then align your array with your subs? Are you not going to have phase issues around the crossover point between the two? It might be ok at the back but in the main audience section your stage left array would be delayed differently from your right to align with the subs.
yep this is another bs youtube video.
Thank you for this video...
how about putting say a quarter of your subs on one side so instead of notches you get a gentle dip in the frequency response.
You also will get more output from your subs by acoustically coupling them in one location
What about in a indoor setting.. like a Living Room? Currently I have 2 (not stereo)... about 2 ft apart centered.
Freq. Length of 100hz = 3.4Meter
This is what I say about putting subs in Harley saddle bags. I’m not sure , but it seems to me , if you put two subs facing each other , one in each bag , you would get a lot of comb filtering ?? Anyone know more about this ??
@Jonathan LaPointe yes it is. I’m asking if the woofers would cancel in anyway. Not an expert , why is this question so ridiculous ?? And then I take it the answer is of course not ??
love all ur content much appreciate it.
Cool! I learned so much! Thanks👍😃
Great explanation! Curious as to what software you are using in your explanation.
Great video!
Can i place 1 sub per side the left and the right sides of the stage and place 1 sub also in the middle of the stage? Like 18in sub on the left and right side of the stage and 12in in the middle of the stage. Is it ok? Is it allowable?
Thank...
What would happen acoustically if the subwoofers were in a horizontal line across the entire stage?
this is what I was thinking? Under the stage behind the banner
why not in the middle?
Nice video! Anybody knows the software for the graphs? Thank you!
Great info! What is the simulation software called?
I agree. If you make sub stack higher at least 1/4 of 40 hz, shouldnt it reach longer then ?
Actually, we would love to be able to stack all six subs up in a straight column when we have to put them all over on the side like this. Then, we would have some directional control at least at the higher mid-bass frequencies.
Brilliant.
was that accepted at "phase" value?
But why on the right and not on the left? That was almost the entire reason I clicked on this video
So basically, because LR is the worst possible configuration and a center cluster isn't always an option. Do you delay the "weak" side of the array to compensate for the distance difference then too?
I also what want to ask that.
We don't delay the other array, we've tried that before but it shifts the stereo image for the whole audience in a strange way. Think about what the delay on just that side means for those sitting over on the subwoofer side...
Could you please explain what's wrong with stereo bass that makes it sound bad?
Wave cancellation at various points in the room instead of coupling.
Is there a significant phase problem near the crossover frequency for people on the left because of the long distance of the sub vs the array?
great 👍 although some will call you names... names etc... anyways who does subs stereo? 🤷♂️
What program do you use to simulate the speakers? Is there any available for non-professionals?
I would like to find some good universal positions for setting up subwoofers outdoors as an amateur DJ.
The NEXO NS-1 software is free to download, and you can use it as a general guide for your setups.
If you didn’t know that stage even existed it wouldn’t matter anyway.
Would it help to angle them in more?
They never do that in Denmark. It's stereo all the way! 🤙
In that amount of subs id rather go for an endfire or chainsaw array in the stage center
Never put all your subs on one side!
To prove you wrong I am going to start my own company "Beta Sound"
But I do walk the venue when I show up.... oh wait I'm a sound engineer so I do this all the time even if I'm not working it.
When we go to concerts we're not working, we open up the front fills and check the crossovers when nobody is looking. Can't help it.
Just kidding. We don't actually do that.
@@devinlsheets_alphasound I don't know I do like to take pictures of all the equipment and figure out how it's connected for some strange reason then I start wondering what their crossover setting is, Power distribution................
the Last 2 concerts I went to they asked for help tearing down. One of them was better than the concert since everybody was wearing earplugs anyway because it was so loud.
What do you do with phase there? I mean, how do you tune your system - left and right sides separately, or all together?
I understand what your saying...I have my own company as well...why didn't you just throw the subs under the stage???
Yeah great question. The banner is really thick and it messes up how the subs sound. For one, it makes a flapping noise when the base hits really hard. Also, putting them that far under the stage shakes the stage itself a lot, and makes the subs sound boxy
As a drummer I like to be on the opposite side of the stage as most of the sound. I dont like to be in the middle. I prefer more of a mono sound stage vs stereo.
nice
....."so get over it," lol.
You invest a lot in sounding good.
I was few years ago at an event where there was 2 subs and they were out of phase 180 degrees. In the middle there was zero bass. What the heck
Is it better to place two subs next to each other or one on top of the other?
People who sit on the side where no subs are AND complaining about "lacking base"? How stupid can audience be? Is there any limit? Anyway, it is always best to center all the subs on one center stack. Banner is not as important as subs.
why not put them behind the stage? The placement as-is mean you have not just level issues across the front row, but also delay issues.
It's not a bad idea, as long as the stage isn't very deep or doing that doesn't cause other problems like make musicians angry about the amount of subwoofer information on stage. Also, doing that would ruin the purpose of a cardioid setup if you wanted to reject bass on stage. You'd also have to consider the acoustic response of having the subs behind the stage... what is the bass going to have to travel through to get to the audience? Other than that, having the subs in omni mode behind the stage would actually allow the mains to be delayed a few feet to compensate and could actually sound really good!
Does this require that stack of subs to be controlled like an array? I'm running 2 subs on the edges of my stage at the moment, I'm wondering if I can just place them side by side in the center (we have room for that).
Hello , i have in my small room a system with 4 15" subwoorers PA type and i have most of the bass in the corners of the room , how can i solve that? I have a video on my channel about how i placed those subs . Video is called " 4 15s playing dale papi "
This video is specifically talking about OUTDOOR subwoofers. Everything changes when you're indoors. In a normal room, your subs will tend to be near walls or corners, which can massively amplify certain frequencies, and negate other frequencies. For inside, use stereo. Simple as that.
so mids and high's don't have comb filtering? or they are just not as noticeable?
wavelengths are so much shorter that the null zones of various frequencies would only be a few inches (as opposed to several feet wide with subs) so you wouldn't notice it.
Ideally the subs would go behind the audience
Por que no al centro y cardio
Eso mismo me pregunté, supongo que si seria lo mismo o talvez mejor pero el problema es si el arreglo es grande terminará estorbando visualmente al grupo o evento.
@@tonoriossentinelaxp6572 si se pued3 solo cambias la configuración
@@tonoriossentinelaxp6572eso. No puede poner el sub en el centro aquí
what software are you using?
Nexo NS-1
would it be bad for the musicians to put the subs centre behind the stage?
maybe. it would be a LOT of bass for them (even more than it already is!), and would shake things quite a bit more. It also might sound strange having to essentially go through the stage and tent. But also, we haven't tried that so we can't really say it wouldn't work!
@@devinlsheets_alphasound as a (former, i'm on a sabbatical until my kids grow a bit older) bassist myself, i don't think it would be a big deal and i think it would be worth a try on a small gig, but i am an amateur behind the sound desk, and have no formal training, so all of the following is pure speculation and anecdotal evidence on my part. Back before i had kids, and i played live, we often had our amps at the back serving as monitors more than anything else, mine was to the side of the drummer. as for the sound "going through" things, bass is the most penetrating of all the audible frequencies, and should hold up fine to a tent, and a horizontal stage, it might cause a few loose bolts to buzz or rattle, but that's always a risk wherever the stack is. Looking at your visualisation, it might have to be 6db louder than if it were at the front, but that might not be required, depending on the chosen sweet spot of the listener. If it's not shaking your chest cavity, it's not loud enough /s
thanks for the interesting video.
"9db difference" is almost meaningless unless you know the db. 65 vs 74db is a tiny difference compared to the difference between 125 and 134.
So the sound is hampered by the banner...no.
What software is that?
I'd just move the banner.
Opps...just saw how low the stage was...sorry dude...rock on
try on both sides. not in the front. i mean, left and right side.
Get twice as many …
Run em mono….
Twin stacks….
Turn em up….
Don’t be an audiophile
Or his rabid cousin ,the sound engineer.
Have fun…..
Because they ran out of money. KEKW