The BEST subwoofer array for large concerts?
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- Опубліковано 2 лип 2024
- This is my attempt at recreating the results described in an AES paper called Subwoofer positioning, orientation and calibration for large-scale sound reinforcement. Comment with your ideas for improvement.
See the original post: www.sounddesignlive.com/the-b...
AES 7971: secure.aes.org/forum/pubs/con...
Why do you polarity invert the rear sub in a cardioid array? • Why do you polarity in...
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I love to geek out about the physics of sound. This channel focuses on the growing opportunity for live sound engineers to improve their confidence and consistency through the understanding of the principles of sound system design and optimization. My goal is to make this channel upfront and honest about my success and failure, so you can learn from both.
I am always open to suggestions and feedback so please comment on this video or contact me through my site. - Наука та технологія
Hi Nathan, great video. Really appreciate.
Glad it was helpful!
I always like the answer to the question: "Just BUY more subs". Gee, why didn't I think about that?!? I'll just run to the store, as soon as I pull that silver spoon out of my butt!
Lol that's the same problem I'm running in to. Basically more boxes and ones that all match are the answer. Like oh yeah, that'd be nice, if I had 24 matching 18s..
Bahahahaha
I have 4 52's (old i know) but it's what the band using our venue is allowing us to use. Also 4 18' powered subs. I aux them all. 52's on aux 7, 18's aux 8. I started having them LR of stage.... and just recently moved the 18's across the stage underneath. They're about 4-5ft apart....I was able to reduce volumes of all subs .. and even put 2 extra mains the owner had.... inbetween the middle empty sections of the subs pointing as if they were monitors. On their sides facing upwards. A cloth facade is all that blocks the front of them all.. and it sounds INCREDIBLE. I have almost no equing on the subs, just a 20hz hpf and slight db reduction on 60, 80, 100. It totally transformed the experience positively. It took me a year of messing and learning, but I'm finally pleased with the sound on and off stage. I tested the mics in front too, just because I was concerned ab feedback at full volume and with the right eq/gate/comp there was absolutely no tweaking required.
If anyone is wondering my eq mix for mics, I usualy go 4:2 ratio on the compressor with 22-24atk/5hold/20release. Cut up to 140hz with hpf and very slight tweaks with skinny peq adjustments depending on what's happening.
Nice work! Really great to hear you found something that works for you. :)
Yes! The perseverance paid off big time. My boss is an engineer as well, so working around the things I don't understand...is just a little bit easier idea wise.
Thanks for your work on the channel. I've been sifting through so much engineering/sound/mixing content the past year... and it's truly the biggest library in history. With videos, demos, approval; what a time to be alive!@@nathanlively
Great job Nathan. Only thing I would suggest is NEVER let 100 hz get near your subs.
Thanks Michael! How so?
Hey Nathan, I pray you are having a blessed day. I am a student of live sound. I’ve been running sound for 35 years. I am also a southern gospel quartet bass singer. Just with years of experience with setting parametric’s and graphic eq for myself and other bass singers, that 100hz sounds horrible for us when it’s coming out of those subs. I send my subs 80hz and down. I can control 100hz with the parametric a lot easier in my tops than in my subs. To me (just my opinion) it just sounds better, for live music, professional tracks and vocals, not just us bass singers.
Amen!
@@michaeljeremiah9221 same! It's muddy and nasty...also applies in home and car audio builds
So much appreciated.
You are so welcome
If it was me, I'd be moving off the stage by that meter as you said and probably do a delayed array with the center being 0 added delay. Really helps even out the low-end response in the room especially in that 270-degree issue but that would probably require more subs to be ultimately effective. Just my initial thoughts though lol I'm very much still learning.
Hey Murham, great idea. Maybe similar to the solution that Vojetech proposed?
www.sounddesignlive.com/the-best-subwoofer-array-for-large-concerts/#comment-211360
Hi nathan, have you tryied a center cluster of subs forming a triangle where the two front sub stacks are facing at a 90°, the rear cluster is inverted for cancelation towards the stage... this has really worked for me!! You should try it on the program see what results im getting!! Thanks
No, I haven't. Sounds cool. Could you draw me a diagram or show me one of your designs where you have implemented this?
hey nathan, is there any chance you can do a video of how to calculate spacing between horizontal subwoofer array and how to find delay per sub?
Hey H, great suggestion. Do you have a specific design I can use? What specific questions do you have about designing and deploying the array?
The more details you can give me, the more likely it is that I'll be able to create something that helps you. :)
@@nathanlively maybe 6 subs with spacing in between.
I'd be keen to see that also. I have d&b V sub (cardiod sub w/18" forward firing and 12" rear firing) and would like to see 4 or 8 of them in a line with 1/4 wavelength spacing and delay applied coverage. Even a DBX Driverack gives me 2 mid/high channels then 4 channels with delay i can use for 8 subs.
Hi Nathan , the cancelation in the back can be improved adding an end fired / gradiend array Sub in the front line, it will generate more destructive waves in te back of the entire array . :)
Thanks Gabriel! Do you have a design where you have done this that I could look at?
@@nathanlively of course , give me your email
I really am novice to subwoofer cancellation and array time align, i only own the dbx driveracks, maybe i need to use more in my m32 x32. i dunno how to use smmart even. can you do a very basic video from the beginning of setup to show how to set up a crossover and such. Thanks
Hey Dianjello, maybe this is what you're looking for?
www.sounddesignlive.com/get-started-with-sound-system-tuning/
I haven't watched all the vdos regarding this article but why we are using gradient pattern? Or is it just for trying out some options?
Hey Vivek, I think this will answer your question: www.sounddesignlive.com/the-best-subwoofer-array-for-large-concerts/
Hi Nathan. Is there a reason why delay wasn't applied to the subs in an increasing increment as you move outwards from the centre ? What about the subs being 1/4 wavelength apart as a distance compared to the 4m distance initially indicated ?
Hey Fitzpatricks, I'm not sure. We would need to ask Adam, but I don't think the intention was the widen the coverage with a delayed arc.
> What about the subs being 1/4 wavelength apart
Is that your suggestion for a new design?
I guess that would shorten the line length and widen the coverage. Would you be willing to test it out and share your results?
The example subwoofer setup in the paper was based on a non ideal system where the number of subwoofers and processing channels were limited. In this case, subwoofer placement, spacing, orientation and directivity were chosen as the available optimization variables. Since then, I've done a couple more papers that cover delay and other aspects of subwoofer system optimization. Take a look, if you're interested!
adamjhill.com/AJHILL/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/Hill-AES-SR-2017.pdf
adamjhill.com/AJHILL/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/Hill-AES-144.pdf
@@adamhill964 Thanks Adam, the papers were interesting, although some parts a little maths heavy for me. Insightful and helpful information to digest, thanks.
Aaron
Hey i have a question, so when setting up subs in say a cardioid type of set up.
Would i need to have several speaker management systems, like a dbx drive rack i dont understand how i can set delays on some and not the others when running multiple subs. Thanks for any help. As you can probably tell i am a rookie.
Hey Weld, yes, you'll need some way to take action on the system. That could be a output processor, a mixing console, or something else, but delay and polarity are the basic tools for the job.
@@nathanlively thanks Nathan, it would be awesome if you could do a video showing how to set delays on subs when running multiple subs for some of us that are super new. So what I dont understand is, from what i have seen. Most crossovers have one sub out. I would like to see how this would be wired for multiple subs when half are delayed and half are not. Dumb it down for me. Lol!! Thanks for any help.
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how would be the distance with 7 columns and the processing? thanks !
Hey Eilton, I recommend the Subwoofer Array Designer for questions like this. It's free! :)
What’s the spacing between each set of subs and how much delay is each from the center subs at zero thanks
Hey Alex, thanks for checking out the video. It might be easiest to get all of your questions answer by downloading the MAPP XT file liked at the bottom of the original post - www.sounddesignlive.com/the-best-subwoofer-array-for-large-concerts/
> What’s the spacing between each set of subs
4m
> how much delay is each from the center subs at zero
I'm not sure I'm clear on your question here. Each of the gradient arrays has delay on the rear sub based on distance, but that's the only delay setting.
@@nathanlively 8 units of dual 10 subs.. do I need to set up delay.. if I place them super close to each other?
What if the crossover is at 80Hz?
Pls what the software you are using ?
MAPP XT or 3D
Hey buddy can you help me please im making a new home theater and my space is 5m * 3.30m * 2.09m high and i have 2 monoliths 15 can you please tell me how i can find the best position to my subs?? How i can make it to 3d in pc or maybe you can make it and tell me where i have to put them exactly 🙄 Please Little help🙏🙏🙏
Hmmm, I don't know much about consumer audio. Have you tried the simulator in REW? Also, contact this guy: www.corsini.com.au/
I would need to buy a lot more subs... :P
Me, too! ;)
Would you not cross the subwoofer quite sharply at 80-90 HZ?? Wouldn't that eliminate your 100 hz issue? No one wants to listen to 100hz anyways
Hey Dantonliam, my first thought is that that wouldn't fix the problem, just move it somewhere else, but I definitely agree that manipulating the crossover relationship is a tool in the toolbox. I just have considered it here.