This video makes perfect sense and is one of the best I have seen regarding system tuning. I haven’t been tuning my church’s sound system at all and have been searching long and hard for the best way to do it. (Smaart, drive rack PA) I found this to be eye opening...er...ear opening and relieving after looking at so many eq graphs and dollar signs. Going to start practice listening immediately.
By ear For me it just works! For my final sound check i play Kenny G. For my full sound check but that’s my last check. I’m 57 still doing sound and i still use just my ears. Must bands i want to say all but we know. Say at the end i love the way you run your sound. You make us sound very good! Even done Beastie boys run DMC fat boys and many others big events. Enjoyed your video cNt wait for more.
How does the age of your ears affect the tuning of your system? Is it possible that as you age, hearing loss at upper and mid frequencies can affect your ability to tune by ear?
I've been a sound guy since 1989...starting out in clubs, on systems like Yorkville, old JBLs, SoundTech, BFI, Melhart, homemade stuff, etc... My first sound company job was with a former Showco guy, who had an old 70s Showco rig...called the "Hurler System"...that was actually Led Zeppelins PA. I was never allowed to even look at consoles and processing until I drove trucks, loaded in and out, learned to set up and wire the whole system, and make it work right, etc... If my boss ever caught me even staring at a console for a moment, he would yell at me..."Stop looking at that console...!". I learned how to pull shows in the shop. I was cleaning toilets, and taking out the trash. I was changing oil in the trucks. I was doing things like cleaning 250ft snake covered in cow poo, after it had come back from a rodeo arena. I learned to repair broken gear, and replace faulty casters on road cases. I got to a point where I could go from scrubbing the toilet, to taking a broken system and bring it back to full working order, and ready for the next show. Then one day, somewhere around the summer of 92'... I had set up a monitor rig for a Bootsy Collins show. There I was sitting on a road case after I had set everything up. My boss said "Hey, those monitors aren't going to mix themselves...". So there it was...my first time behind a console....mixing monitors for Bootsy. But you know what...it went surprisingly well, because I knew that entire rig, inside and out, literally. I knew how everything worked, and knew about any fussy pieces of gear. It was surprisingly easy to make it all sound right. Over the years, I've used all the gadgetry available. But most often I use my ears. I rarely look at anything once signal flow is established. I use a 58 to do most of the work. I own a small sound company now. I actually make my own cabinets (a once common thing, but a dying art). And I still do all the stuff the same way. I make sure I know every piece of gear inside and out. I've toured the nation and the world, mixed in front of hundreds of thousands of people...and I still do the speaker on a stick gig in the park, for a kids puppet show. It all works the same on a fundamental level. You're just scaling up and down depending on the gig. People these days miss so many fundamentals, and rely to heavily on everything but their own ears. I occasionally hire guys who love to talk about what consoles they've mixed on, and what shows they've done...but at the end of the day, they don't know much about the whole process. It's sad really. I see so many guys who can set up the network, program the consoles, set up analyzer gear, and make it all look pretty on a screen. But it still sounds like crap. Those analyzer mics are facing and listening to the PA, meanwhile behind FOH, it sounds like a jet aircraft taking off in your ear.
Scott: I just carefully read your publication on the subject of the video, in which I saw myself personally, practically in every sentence that denotes your effort and perseverance in a profession like the one we both have. For me, there is software and machinery capable of helping us. This is certainly welcome. But first and foremost is elementary knowledge about electroacoustics, which is the science that governs our work. After that, my acoustic perception is the reason they hire me to take care of a system. I do not completely hand over this task to sound analysis tools to the point of allowing the result of this analysis to influence this perception. Essentially, my goal is to deliver an acoustically coherent program to an audience, knowing full well that the majority of listeners don't even have the real ability to analyze the program being sent to them, which means that the spectrum still has to be wider. The effectiveness and rigor with which this is done depends - in my opinion - on the real knowledge of the person responsible for the sound system in the scope of the provision that is possible, with the means at his disposal. As a sound engineer, what I think is that I must always have my ears attentive to what is coming out of the sound system and never let myself be distracted by graphics on the control surfaces. Since the final result of the work is intended to be sent to people who only use their ears and consequently affect their emotions, I have always felt that my professional sound system tuning should be oriented in that direction. In other words, I perform this tuning based on what is supposed to happen in a generic way during the shows, with the awareness that I am proceeding in the right way so that everyone can clearly hear and feel the program that is being produced on a stage. . I wish you luck, health and lots of sound work. Macedo Pinto Portugal
Great video. I usually use graphics on my LR and aux sends, and parametric EQs on any routed matrices. As of late, I've been running my subs on an aux, but sometimes I like to mix full range - depends on the band/system/room. The best advice I was given as monitor engineer: just go out and listen to the wedge! Always use your ears. My soundcheck songs: PYT (Michael Jackson), Woman In Chains (Tears for Fears), and I Like It (DeBarge.) Also, audio engineer friends: please be kind to your ears. Even if you don't think you mix loud, get used to mixing with ear plugs. I know it sucks, but your ears are your best tool. Protect them.
Great video! My method has always been to eq a room by using the same three songs every time. I know the songs very well inside and out and I know exactly what they should sound like. I don't use any microphones or software. I simply do it by ear. While it's not perfect, I feel I'm able to very consistently get the same mix over and over regardless of the room if I start there
@@_thevaporz don’t use any electronic music to setup they are usually over EQ’d , Iv always used the same songs as Tony Andrews (Funktion one). set mid range (focus on vocal) 1st then top end for this I use George Benson Nature Boy. Then move onto low end until it’s balanced when happy I switch songs to Gat Decore, Passion usually for a final tweak in bass levels. Setup is done ideally at working volume to avoid redlining the mixer or clipping the amps 👍
Back in the day before all this tuning gear was available or priced to the point that mere mortals might have it, everything was done by ear. The 400 hz and 2.5khz thing is probably the first thing you learn in doing live show sound. They are two areas that make things sound harsh and sort of hollow. Nobody likes it when you leave much of that stuff in the mix. Learning to move it from the strip EQ to the main mix EQ is a very big step towards getting a proper sound from the start. If you EQ a system for the FM curve to start with, you will always be starting at a pretty good point. Then you are just working for the room and the desires tonality appropriate for the act or event.
You are right on the mark. 400hz = boxey shitty boomey sound. 2.5khz will give people ear fatigue kind of like the never ending sound of a subliminal piece of chalk screeching on a blackboard or the gnawing annoying sound of a dental drill in your ear.
Im not a sound tech but when Iv been to shows almost always the sound is super peircing and harsh. When thinking of doing live shows as a musician Iv feared what my ears might go through tbh. I find PA systems are almost always way too loud, obnoxiously loud and unnecessary. Iv been to orchestras that are loud and normal, appeasing. But at certain rock shows it seems people have no idea the difference between audible and too loud. I then worry about inner ears because I assume ones gonna have to blast them directly into my eardrum to overcompensate for the volume. I haven’t experienced this yet so idk but all I can say is I almost never go to a show where the sound felt right accept for one show in a small venue in NY and actually PA now that I think of it . And then outdoor Venues mostly. But my impression has always been PA systems are harsh and nowhere near as musical Or sweet as my guitar amps at very loud volumes
I used to EQ a system with a graphic by sliding each slider to max, then min, and settling it where it sounded right to me (playing back familiar music). I always got the system sounding really good this way, and took care of about 90% of potential feedback before I ever turned on a microphone. When my boss found out this is how I did it, he flipped his lid and said I needed to use an RTA because "that's how it's done." Thing is, he sold sound systems; he had little experience in actually operating them, and read about how people did things, and believed it was a rigid formula. Deviation from that formula, to him, made us look incompetent to the customer. (Customer doesn't care -- they just want it to sound good!)
I came to the same conclusions and I've been doing this method with great success for about 10 years now! you've really well articulated the logic behind it and unexpected benefits. I like the way you used the word "smooth" as a goal for your sound systems as opposed to "flat". I use the phrase "ear-friendly". I felt such an outlier compared to all the other techs I know (with their reference mics and Smaart but still not ear pleasing results imho).. it's very refreshing to come across this video!!
Man, I'd like to chat. I've been doing this and hiding my technique for about 3 years. I'm a firm believer in quick responsive EQ, what feels good to the ear. I took it as I'm correcting the resonant peaks of the system and room, so I can correct the tonality and resonant peaks of the instruments and voices. I haven't had a legitimate loudness complaint in 3 years, and have gotten more compliments than I am comfortable handling lol. I now have a reference to why I do what I do. Thank so much for making the video.
Been doing live sound for 10 years and I literally do the same thing, never thought I would find someone that does the same. Never got loud complaints in a long while. But my dynamics are very well done.
@@stevengangaram2825 I’ve been in live sound for 16 years, but would always try and eq the room flat, until that revelation more than 3 years ago now, that I didn’t like it. I didn’t like it when I did it, even though it looked right. I didn’t like how it sounded when others had said they had eqd flat. Wild ride, but so glad I took it!
I’m 30+ years into sound and agree with both of you. I can’t stomach a “flattened” EQ. It sounds horrid. I play “hey 19” by Steely Dan when setting my EQ. If that sounds smooth, then the band will sound smooth. It also doesn’t annoy like pink noise does.
I did the sound for a local blackened folk metal band a little while back. I worked a 30 year old analog console, in an old factory (concrete walls and steel beams), and since we got heavily delayed, I didn't have time to do a full sound check. I was pretty nervous about the quality of the sound, but for some reason, I got tons of positive feedback (not the microphone kind). Turns out, caffeine, nicotine, and stress, works wonders!
Yes give us a part 2! Can you do one for a home audience? You know, some of us might not be engineers but I just love trying to get great sound at home that takes me back to a gig or brings the most out of the music for enjoyment.
Great video! Thanks. I have noticed exactly the same thing over the years how if I averaged out all of my EQ's I have so many similarities as well. I havent done it myself as I didnt want to add / remove from certain things. For instance I dont like putting EQ on acoustic and electric guitar if I can help it at all. I always try fix the source first. So on stage fiddling with the musicians EQ on his acoustic and 99.9% of the time it sounds just perfect. Just roll off the lows with a HPF. Same for electric, if there is a amp I listen to the source. If the source is good then I will play with mic position roll off the lows and 99% of the time you have an amazing sound. But watching your video makes me realize I should give it a try. It will also save the other engineers loads of time if the channels just "sound" good from scratch. Great video. Please post more!
i much prefer to tune a system to a well produced song, i bought a dbx driverack ran it with the mic and it was awful! no serious sound system uses sm58 mics, i prefer beta 58 at a push but actially own beta 87's , used to use beyer tgx 80's, great sound but as fragile as eggs!
No tuner here, just having been to a good many festivals, and I have frequently wondered if the guy at the mixing desk is deaf or something (and same with the journos who would write a review saying the concert was sullied by low volume). Another thing is that high-pitch tones has a tendency to break up into painful noise IMO. The most interesting example of mixing craft though was one day where the sound had been dull and muddled the whole day until David Bowie came on stage and it was loud enough to blow out your eardrums while still being crystal clear - and the only difference was the guy at the mixing desk.
Very intelligent and entertaining piece. I've been a studio (and sometimes live) engineer for over 50 years.....so I've see the technology evolve. I cut my real engineering chops on a board that had NO EQ whatsoever, drawing on the wisdom and experience of my teacher, Mack Emerman who would not allow you to touch an EQ until you had exhausted every possibility of microphone selection and positioning. What I see in the curve windows of boards these days is horrifying.
YES!! Finally someone who understands Fletcher & Munson is the way to go! Especially good if you’re tuning a system made for long listening (read night clubs and such). It’s much smoother for the ears and all the sharp and annoying frequencies tend to disappear. People have been discussing house curves for ages on the internet but this rarely comes up as a subject, which surprise me. Fun fact: I was tuning a couple of 2” compression drivers with big horns, oldschool you know, and Fletcher/Munson curve was the only way to make them sound natural and not honky. But when they where tuned right they sounded amazing. I’ve been to sooo many nightclubs with bad tuned systems, and we talk about systems like Void and Funktion One. My ears hurt when I have to listening to 110db of flat response, but not at all with the right tuning. I really hope this can be the new industry standard. And I know Harmann (JBL and so on…) for example have their own curve for headphones and such, very similar to Fletcher. They know their deal!
Jesus love you, he died on the cross for you, accept him as your lord and savior he can change everything. For God so loved the world that he gave his only son, so that everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal life" (Jn 3:16" But you must repent too. From that time Jesus went about preaching and saying, Let your hearts be turned from sin, for the kingdom of heaven is near. (Matthew 4:17);
Nice insight! However, I feel that what you're after with your target curve is part of the "toning" process of the sound system. Which is a subjective topic. Tuning a sound system, for me at least, mostly deals with verification of the system, worrying about coverage, amount of subs, time alignment. I sometimes don't even have time to EQ the system (thankfully most system I handle are doing okay with just their factory presets) and leave toning to the mixer guys.
Yeah there is this distinction floating around between tuning and toning. It’s a fair distinction but to be honest not everybody uses it or has even heard of the distinction at all. Might be a good excuse to make another video!
Learned how to tune by starting with a rta and 31 band eq for mains, then ringing out mains and monitors. Always played classical & rock to balance the overall eq. Tower of power to check highs & mids. Part 2 please
Warning guys! If you're going to hire a rig, hire the engineer to go with it! You will definitely without a doubt, end up on your backside and be sorry if you don't!
I know for a fact if I go up to the PA i would hear something that bothers me and jwould ust change it and everyone is like what did you do it sounds way better! That is always me, it just took like 4 years to fine tune my ear and copy the sound of a 25k system and tune my old peavey speakers and cerwinvega subs like those PA speakers and I always beat the RCF and DAS speakers! So its all Personal preference its just whose sound and taste will you most enjoy and be willing to pay for!
3:58 same here, always ring out the monitors first, and some PA feedback. 4:40 Hahaha how recognizable! I even had 'an artist I toured with for 12 years. Complained about his in-ear sound. I PLF the out signal of the mixer, and ok. Then monitor the output of the HF transmitter output and also ok!. Then later tell the artist give me the receiver and your own in-ears. Receiver signal ok. Then I put the in-ears in.... in 3 seconds I knew the problem. So I go to the dressing room, to the artist and say, one of the in-ear speakers is blown! Didn't use limer either Here in the Netherlands they go for cheap. If you ask € 10 too much, they go to another ... Very sad... but they do place high demands on the sound engineer...
8:50 I love the sense of relief when I see a vocal eq that looks damn near identical to the one I use as a starting point except I use a shelf at the high end and dont usually need to cut much of the high mids. I have imposter syndrome hardcore sometimes and I second guess my choices constantly. I dont know what to think when I have musicians and audience members tell me it was the best sound they heard either in a long time or ever. Are they just saying that to be nice? To me it could sound a lot better and after 15 years I'm almost to a point where I feel confident to try getting gigs at venues larger than 300 cap.
I too am my own worst critic. After 30+ years, I still think I could have done better. Even though the band and their followers say that’s the best they sounded.
Just seen this video now after you uploaded it 2 years ago. And yeah I agree with you 100% on everything what you've said. And me too do the same thing tuning any system I am told to handle. Except for the pink noise area cause that kind of mic is not cheap here in the Philippines. Great video for new breed of wannabe audio system tech 👍👍👍 Got a new subscriber here 🤗🤗🤗. Keep it up.
I usually don't have too much time to tune so, over the years, starting off with Pink Noise to get the room acoustics in check, then listening to a handful of reference recordings like a couple of tracks off of Ramsey Lewis' Ivory Pyramid(Those GRP recordings sound amazing), to test dynamics and low to mid range performance, a couple more jazz tracks with good vox tracks to get smooth vocal response. Then I listen to a few more popular but well produced tracks from Michael Jackson and Bruno Mars along with Daft Punk to get the rest of the spectrum in line has worked well. I learned pretty quickly that just relying on a flat room eq curve never equates to smooth overall system sound and after a certain amount of time, will fatigue everyone's ear, especially if the show you're mixing is 3-4 hours long.
The Fletcher Munson is always used as the standard on how humans hear sound. The funny thing is, only two people were sampled, Fletcher and Munson. Thankfully, neither one of them had bad hearing, so the curve is fairly accurate. I just find it funny that the big scientific standard is only based on 2 samples, lol.
Agree 100%, in my life there are too many people mixing to a picture instead of their ears. I had a similar experience when the audio-wizard I looked up to (and still do to some degree) spent around 20 min "tuning" a system based on the picture, ignoring what the sound was actually doing. I pointed out that it sounded weird, and that it wasn't sounding as good as he normally get is. then he actually listened and realized that he wasn't setup right, and he had to pretty-much start over. Though he got it running well pretty quickly after that. It just showed me that relying too much on these tools made him not listen, and my audience is not made of RTA mics, but other human ears. Now I try to trust my ears as much as possible and only bust out the RTA stuff if I'm in a really rough situation with too many unknowns or changing factors- or if I'm having an issue I cant sort-out quickly with ears alone. I think it is great to have and teach standards. It super useful for new technicians to have a graph to tell them what is right, even if they haven't taken the time to develop their ears. But a well trained ear and listening ability is actually faster at catching problems than a meter in most cases. Especially the problems that will drastically effect your audience and performer/presenter. For my shows, if you see my laptop out as an RTA, it is because i don't trust something there.
There's a band I follow who are quite talented but their sound team is pure garbage. I can imagine people seeing them for the very first time live , just walking out because the sound is horrible. Don't hire friends if you aren't willing to fire friends when the sound sucks and sucks constantly not just due to differences in venues that can't be overcome..
Thanks for that video! I do concerts at school, but only a few times a year and I would count myself to the category only some skills and only very little vision so thanks for giving me a perspective of where to go!
As a final check I play pink panther and walk around, sometimes it reveals weird things, because I'm always in different rooms and places, and must react to the modes of the environment. A flat sounding system at the mic with an empty room is really not flat in the corners or when filled with people, not fan of real time either, so I prefer the ear, but on the final passes I move around, walk everywhere.
That was a wicked video. My ears are all knackered after lockdown from no work. I really like the eq game, thank you. I've picked up a Youngling to train, this'll help is both.
This is an interesting philosophy, and well explained, thanks! Could you replicate the same results by tuning with software, then apply your standard EQ curve to the result get your prefered tuning precisely?
Sir How to Manage 2 Type Sub. I mean 2 /3 types bass reflex sub , example - 1) Front Loaded 2) Hornload 2) Revers speaker sub In one venue. How to manage it
Good solid info video .BUT, as time is often rare ..Just get your main vocal mike on a stand middle of stage ,set it with 100hz hi pass flat channel EQ and turn it up as loud as it will go on main PA, when it feeds back notch that out from flat on the main system graphic, keep raising gain and do it again till no feedback ,same with monitors .This technique is tried and trusted never fails for any size speaker or PA system.and takes minutes with no extra kit . I would NEVER EQ a rig to a CD of some music I "Know" YOU EQ THE RIG TO THE LOUDEST MIC, no uncalibrated ears involved. Ive engineered for 30 years and cringe when I babysit a lot of modern shows with brillient equipment where you just cant make out a word the main vocalist is singing or there is feedback, especially when they spend 10 minutes "sound checking" a snare drum!!
Dear Devin, you nailed it in ALMOST every topic, but I have to strongly disagree with you... An SM58 without a dent, its NOT an SM58. Thanks for all the tech info, greetings from Argentina!😁
This is a 3 year old video,maybe you changed your mind on some aspects since then. Your method is great for system toning(not tuning) ,I use a similar method,but I still need a mic and measurement system (dual channel FFT) to properly align subs to mains,delays to main etc,I first make the tops flat, add the subs (never ever flat to main,depends on application but I do a minimum of 6dB extra gain for subs) and after that depending on how the system sounds with flat mains I adjust the eq. I have a not yet verified theory that some systems require more gain reduction than others starting from flat tuned,in the 2.5 to 5 KHz area(an area where you also eq)depending on how much distorsion there is from the way the speaker is built(my guess is that large format HF drivers distort much more than a similar speaker but in a 3 way config with a dedicated mid speaker,the bandwith that the HF driver has to reproduce is quite wide and it strugles at doing that in the lower spectrum ,thus distorting more),but I need to study this more scientifically to demonstrate it.I have encountered some systems that sounded perfectly with a flat reponse from 100Hz to 20KHz,these have 5 HF units/array so I guess they do not distort as much as a single unit with a low x-over point. What are your thoughts on this?
Definitely a helpful video (I saved it). I fall into the 2nd category. Good vision, good ears, but lack advanced and even some fundamental knowledge. For instance I wasn't familiar with several terms you used. Then again, sound engineering isn't my main gig. I did a fair amount of it in the 90s, but I'm mainly a player. These days I just end up being the guy who knows the most about it in the room...a room with no sound engineers. But I find myself wondering at too many live shows, "why the hell doesn't anyone pay attention to those ear-piercing mids?"
Typically only reference mics have a flat response curve with all other mics having drastically varying responsive curves. So be careful NOT to tune a FOH system to a vocal mic especially a mic that is different than the performers are using. The L R EQ affects every input signal...
Pink noise is flat. If youre EQing it with those Fletcher Munson curves, you're actually doubling them because once for your ears and once for your system. The Daniel Weiss "by ear" method is simply make a 0-whateverHz sweep, very slow over several minutes. Listen for the peaks and valleys and mark them in time, then check the frequencies and add adjustment until the sweep sounds flat. You get 95% of the way of software using this method.
Hi ...... I had a good laugh, I went the same way as you but 20 years before, the same mistakes to arrive at the same results. thank you for your work, thank you for your curiosity, thank you for your pedagogy. pls ! you can speak more slowly, it's difficult for French speakers, thank you
Actually one thing I would like to add is that sometimes you want a different sounding PA. For example a EDM Concert is supposed to sound a bit different than an evening Ball event I guess. 🐣
At 6:11 "compares it to the test microphone input". With headphones? This part was a little unclear, because you were just talking about pink noise, so i assumed you're still talking about pink noise. But i get you mean the live mix of the show, not noise! Right? But, you're just ensuring the speakers sound the same as the board output. So you're assuming the board output is well-EQ'd. But what if the board output ISN'T well EQ'd?
If you run the output of your console into a software program that compares the frequency content against that of the signal from the test microphone in the environment, it can see what the speakers/environment are changing. This can be done in a static one-time test, or more advanced software can update the results in real time.
To add further clarity, in the example at 6:00 and following, this could be the test microphone result of a speaker system, and if white noise if being played through the speakers, we know what the frequency response should be and can EQ accordingly. In the examples from 6:14 and following, since this mic is picking up program content, we don't have a reference for what the frequency content should be, unless we sample it coming straight off the mixer before hitting the speakers and then being picked up by the test mic. In either case, the speakers are being EQ'd so that the resulting sound at the test mic location is not being frequency altered from the original source.
@@devinlsheets_alphasound In the case of program material, we're only EQ'ing the speakers to match the board output, right? So if the board output is flawed, then this method won't fix that.
@@johnywhy4679 the “board output” would be synonymous with “the mix” at that point. If the mix sucks… then yeah, doesn’t matter if the speakers EQ is set to match the board output signal.
As a concert goer since the 80’s, why do you mixer/sound engineers think the audience needs to have the level of sound at 115+decibels over 300 feet from the stage ?? So much is lost in regards to quality of tone and listenability when the sound is so over done. I have worn ear plugs to cut down on at best 18 to 22 decibels since the 1990’s because concerts are too effing loud. Glad I had because at least I will be able to hear my grandchildren talk to me on the phone. Who ever thought the practice of extreme loudness is something people want or need? Most of the long term rock musicians themselves have hearing loss from decades of abuse. This has now made its way into movie theaters so I and my family refuse to go because the sound levels are ridiculously loud.
I owe you one! I strongly agree with your ideas, and the video you made was really helpful to me as a beginner at sound industry. I hope that you'll create more videos and tutorials!
Really? I think your thinking you are the musician, for any mixers keep everything as close to unity as possible. Adjust frequencies for tge room, not much. Dont over complicate
My gf (this is her acc:) is audiotech, ty for giving me new comments to criticise/annoy her with!🤣😂 I might've used the "that resonating stage sounds amazing" comment a bit too often now 😇
hey everyone, im looking to start renting out a system for local open air parties. I had experience with setting up with a sound engineer in the past however the business have taken a turn for the worst since hiring some annoying assistants who made alot of patrons feel uncomfortable at our last open air. I`d love any recommendations on books/textbooks to learn more abouting tuning and setting up a system ourselves. For reference I also produce music since 3 years so am familiar with some mixing and EQ fundamentals. However would be open to a clean slate perspective if anyone had some! Thanks !
Starting to make sense to me now how I landed at the same conclusion of tuning by ear and using similar settings show to show after years of tuning flat with pink noise .
When I am in indoor situations I play "Jack of Speed" by Steely Dan. It has a lot of good highs and lows and a lot of space so I can see how the room is reacting.
Luckily sound engineers are the only ones who actually give a shit how it sounds. Unless it's way too loud, too quiet or there's a high pitch screech hurting everyone's ears, 99% of people won't even know whether it's good or bad. That's the thing a lot of us audio heads forget, no one hears what we hear lol
Clubs are the worst . Different genres .One night rock next night highly compressed electronic next night HH Rap next night what evers popular .next night funk lolol they all totally different yes default then use your ears on artist you know
what I can say is most of sound engineers suck, but some of them are really brilliant. This « by ear » tuning is certainly a very good method, for the responsibility is on you and not on the equipment
Can someone who understands how home theatres know how to use these, by tunning a speaker with a spl meter and using the controls to make the sound not peak over its desible at its listening postion but also 1 meter at the speaker, also by knowing how much power the reciver can give to each speaker without the reciver losing power can do this, eq settings are also easy to me, your just tunning that frequency to the dsp volume that you want it to be at a certain listening position so if its quite at that frequency you can turn it up and if its over peacking which one it should never do you can turn it down because you shouldn't have a speaker packing at its listening position at 1 meter unless its peaking range is louder then the full volume it can go, idk i know how my works but it took me years to understand that. I own a 5.2 powerful sound system that costed me 4.5k, its only used in a small space, i have the klipsch speaker set, dont need to know though, i ranged those at 80hz at 75dp at my listening position and the subs at 20hz the loudest both at 75dp, i set each volume on the spl at my listening position to that volume and set the meters at the listening position on what the setting had, i dont have any speakers peaking because its not going louder the maximum volume at its range from one meter which each info the speaker talks about.I
I just reset the whole mixer slide the faders up and then just adjust the EQ until it sounds good but most importantly doesn't feed back. I am the sound nerd in my band so rehearsal studios are awful for feedback.
i don`t think this video is about system tuning at all. the main talking point is just doing a pleasing master EQ for a system. and mainly for own workflow needs. it would be crazy to do system design and speaker alignment on a large scale by ear. let`s say you need to hide an overlap of two summing speakers that are not phase linear with each other. such ears don`t exist that can tell difference in arrival times of single frequencies. even if you only had to separate local trends from general trends in a room you should use measurement data when installing a system. everyone usually pays the same money for the ticket so every seat should be equal..
Wierd to find this channel as a now sound nerd living abroad in central America and Australia growing up in Salem Oregon and building the cardboard castle at Salem art fair in my childhood with my family.
I have been running FOH since 1977 in both huge events and tiny venues. With audiences that ranged from 25k down to 3-4 people. I like your analytical approach and you “get it” as far as tweaked are concerned. Ear training is key and understanding the dynamics of what makes a room sound the way it does is key. I totally agree that you need to be proficient with your equipment possess the ability to listen critically. Your ears and the ability to listen critically are paramount.
I totally agree with learing the tune a system by ear. You become better as a sound engineer and also in-tuned with either bumping lacking or cutting hot and problematic frequencies whether indoor or outdoor venues!
Wait a minute. So basically you went old school with modern digital consoles by not using channel and master Eq presets and doing almost from the scratch as fast as possible at every gig?
@@devinlsheets_alphasound love this approach.. to my ears 1990 to 2005 live sound from most of my favourite bands sounds better than now... Yes i understand that we can transfer the studio sound to the live stage but in the end of they day people pay to hear a more live raw performance...
"grab a mic we are all familiar with. A sure sm 58, especially one with a dent in it" this is my life
Yes yes and yes 🤣
like dropped it accidentally 😂 i hate my dented mic
I’ve got ones with lipstick and dents
I did do 30 year
This video makes perfect sense and is one of the best I have seen regarding system tuning. I haven’t been tuning my church’s sound system at all and have been searching long and hard for the best way to do it. (Smaart, drive rack PA) I found this to be eye opening...er...ear opening and relieving after looking at so many eq graphs and dollar signs. Going to start practice listening immediately.
By ear
For me it just works! For my final sound check i play Kenny G. For my full sound check but that’s my last check. I’m 57 still doing sound and i still use just my ears. Must bands i want to say all but we know. Say at the end i love the way you run your sound. You make us sound very good! Even done Beastie boys run DMC fat boys and many others big events. Enjoyed your video cNt wait for more.
Been there and lived it many times
I feel like my brain just leveled up
How does the age of your ears affect the tuning of your system? Is it possible that as you age, hearing loss at upper and mid frequencies can affect your ability to tune by ear?
Nice principle
A microphone we are all familiar with...."A sure 58 with a dent in it'' :D :D :D
That definitely is the one we are most familiar with
Don't forget to add the crusty layer of lipstick ...which adds character and the appeal for using it.
I've been a sound guy since 1989...starting out in clubs, on systems like Yorkville, old JBLs, SoundTech, BFI, Melhart, homemade stuff, etc... My first sound company job was with a former Showco guy, who had an old 70s Showco rig...called the "Hurler System"...that was actually Led Zeppelins PA.
I was never allowed to even look at consoles and processing until I drove trucks, loaded in and out, learned to set up and wire the whole system, and make it work right, etc... If my boss ever caught me even staring at a console for a moment, he would yell at me..."Stop looking at that console...!".
I learned how to pull shows in the shop. I was cleaning toilets, and taking out the trash. I was changing oil in the trucks. I was doing things like cleaning 250ft snake covered in cow poo, after it had come back from a rodeo arena. I learned to repair broken gear, and replace faulty casters on road cases. I got to a point where I could go from scrubbing the toilet, to taking a broken system and bring it back to full working order, and ready for the next show.
Then one day, somewhere around the summer of 92'... I had set up a monitor rig for a Bootsy Collins show. There I was sitting on a road case after I had set everything up. My boss said "Hey, those monitors aren't going to mix themselves...". So there it was...my first time behind a console....mixing monitors for Bootsy. But you know what...it went surprisingly well, because I knew that entire rig, inside and out, literally. I knew how everything worked, and knew about any fussy pieces of gear. It was surprisingly easy to make it all sound right.
Over the years, I've used all the gadgetry available. But most often I use my ears. I rarely look at anything once signal flow is established. I use a 58 to do most of the work. I own a small sound company now. I actually make my own cabinets (a once common thing, but a dying art). And I still do all the stuff the same way. I make sure I know every piece of gear inside and out. I've toured the nation and the world, mixed in front of hundreds of thousands of people...and I still do the speaker on a stick gig in the park, for a kids puppet show. It all works the same on a fundamental level. You're just scaling up and down depending on the gig. People these days miss so many fundamentals, and rely to heavily on everything but their own ears. I occasionally hire guys who love to talk about what consoles they've mixed on, and what shows they've done...but at the end of the day, they don't know much about the whole process. It's sad really.
I see so many guys who can set up the network, program the consoles, set up analyzer gear, and make it all look pretty on a screen. But it still sounds like crap. Those analyzer mics are facing and listening to the PA, meanwhile behind FOH, it sounds like a jet aircraft taking off in your ear.
Scott:
I just carefully read your publication on the subject of the video, in which I saw myself personally, practically in every sentence that denotes your effort and perseverance in a profession like the one we both have.
For me, there is software and machinery capable of helping us. This is certainly welcome. But first and foremost is elementary knowledge about electroacoustics, which is the science that governs our work.
After that, my acoustic perception is the reason they hire me to take care of a system. I do not completely hand over this task to sound analysis tools to the point of allowing the result of this analysis to influence this perception.
Essentially, my goal is to deliver an acoustically coherent program to an audience, knowing full well that the majority of listeners don't even have the real ability to analyze the program being sent to them, which means that the spectrum still has to be wider.
The effectiveness and rigor with which this is done depends - in my opinion - on the real knowledge of the person responsible for the sound system in the scope of the provision that is possible, with the means at his disposal.
As a sound engineer, what I think is that I must always have my ears attentive to what is coming out of the sound system and never let myself be distracted by graphics on the control surfaces.
Since the final result of the work is intended to be sent to people who only use their ears and consequently affect their emotions, I have always felt that my professional sound system tuning should be oriented in that direction.
In other words, I perform this tuning based on what is supposed to happen in a generic way during the shows, with the awareness that I am proceeding in the right way so that everyone can clearly hear and feel the program that is being produced on a stage. .
I wish you luck, health and lots of sound work.
Macedo Pinto
Portugal
I vote yes on part 2
Great video. I usually use graphics on my LR and aux sends, and parametric EQs on any routed matrices. As of late, I've been running my subs on an aux, but sometimes I like to mix full range - depends on the band/system/room. The best advice I was given as monitor engineer: just go out and listen to the wedge! Always use your ears.
My soundcheck songs: PYT (Michael Jackson), Woman In Chains (Tears for Fears), and I Like It (DeBarge.)
Also, audio engineer friends: please be kind to your ears. Even if you don't think you mix loud, get used to mixing with ear plugs. I know it sucks, but your ears are your best tool. Protect them.
I always use Michael Jackson dirty Diana to test a system it's always a good go to
Great video! My method has always been to eq a room by using the same three songs every time. I know the songs very well inside and out and I know exactly what they should sound like. I don't use any microphones or software. I simply do it by ear. While it's not perfect, I feel I'm able to very consistently get the same mix over and over regardless of the room if I start there
Would you mind sharing your reference songs? Thank you.
@@_thevaporz don’t use any electronic music to setup they are usually over EQ’d , Iv always used the same songs as Tony Andrews (Funktion one). set mid range (focus on vocal) 1st then top end for this I use George Benson Nature Boy. Then move onto low end until it’s balanced when happy I switch songs to Gat Decore, Passion usually for a final tweak in bass levels. Setup is done ideally at working volume to avoid redlining the mixer or clipping the amps 👍
I love Joe Satriani's fullness. I haven't dealt with a computer system live yet, but I've been thinking about it. Great info man. :)
Back in the day before all this tuning gear was available or priced to the point that mere mortals might have it, everything was done by ear. The 400 hz and 2.5khz thing is probably the first thing you learn in doing live show sound. They are two areas that make things sound harsh and sort of hollow. Nobody likes it when you leave much of that stuff in the mix. Learning to move it from the strip EQ to the main mix EQ is a very big step towards getting a proper sound from the start. If you EQ a system for the FM curve to start with, you will always be starting at a pretty good point. Then you are just working for the room and the desires tonality appropriate for the act or event.
You are right on the mark. 400hz = boxey shitty boomey sound. 2.5khz will give people ear fatigue kind of like the never ending sound of a subliminal piece of chalk screeching on a blackboard or the gnawing annoying sound of a dental drill in your ear.
Im not a sound tech but when Iv been to shows almost always the sound is super peircing and harsh. When thinking of doing live shows as a musician Iv feared what my ears might go through tbh. I find PA systems are almost always way too loud, obnoxiously loud and unnecessary. Iv been to orchestras that are loud and normal, appeasing. But at certain rock shows it seems people have no idea the difference between audible and too loud.
I then worry about inner ears because I assume ones gonna have to blast them directly into my eardrum to overcompensate for the volume. I haven’t experienced this yet so idk but all I can say is I almost never go to a show where the sound felt right accept for one show in a small venue in NY and actually PA now that I think of it . And then outdoor Venues mostly. But my impression has always been PA systems are harsh and nowhere near as musical Or sweet as my guitar amps at very loud volumes
I like to show up, set up, then have the band screw around until it's time to play so I couldn't tune anything. *sarcasm*
I used to EQ a system with a graphic by sliding each slider to max, then min, and settling it where it sounded right to me (playing back familiar music). I always got the system sounding really good this way, and took care of about 90% of potential feedback before I ever turned on a microphone. When my boss found out this is how I did it, he flipped his lid and said I needed to use an RTA because "that's how it's done." Thing is, he sold sound systems; he had little experience in actually operating them, and read about how people did things, and believed it was a rigid formula. Deviation from that formula, to him, made us look incompetent to the customer. (Customer doesn't care -- they just want it to sound good!)
If the boss pays well enough we’ll make it work with measurement equipment too!
That's how I always did it. RTA is only really useful for tracking down FB frequency
I came to the same conclusions and I've been doing this method with great success for about 10 years now! you've really well articulated the logic behind it and unexpected benefits. I like the way you used the word "smooth" as a goal for your sound systems as opposed to "flat". I use the phrase "ear-friendly". I felt such an outlier compared to all the other techs I know (with their reference mics and Smaart but still not ear pleasing results imho).. it's very refreshing to come across this video!!
Man, I'd like to chat. I've been doing this and hiding my technique for about 3 years. I'm a firm believer in quick responsive EQ, what feels good to the ear. I took it as I'm correcting the resonant peaks of the system and room, so I can correct the tonality and resonant peaks of the instruments and voices. I haven't had a legitimate loudness complaint in 3 years, and have gotten more compliments than I am comfortable handling lol. I now have a reference to why I do what I do. Thank so much for making the video.
Been doing live sound for 10 years and I literally do the same thing, never thought I would find someone that does the same.
Never got loud complaints in a long while. But my dynamics are very well done.
@@stevengangaram2825 I’ve been in live sound for 16 years, but would always try and eq the room flat, until that revelation more than 3 years ago now, that I didn’t like it. I didn’t like it when I did it, even though it looked right. I didn’t like how it sounded when others had said they had eqd flat. Wild ride, but so glad I took it!
I’m 30+ years into sound and agree with both of you. I can’t stomach a “flattened” EQ. It sounds horrid. I play “hey 19” by Steely Dan when setting my EQ. If that sounds smooth, then the band will sound smooth. It also doesn’t annoy like pink noise does.
I did the sound for a local blackened folk metal band a little while back. I worked a 30 year old analog console, in an old factory (concrete walls and steel beams), and since we got heavily delayed, I didn't have time to do a full sound check. I was pretty nervous about the quality of the sound, but for some reason, I got tons of positive feedback (not the microphone kind).
Turns out, caffeine, nicotine, and stress, works wonders!
What is this "friend" thing you speak of? Sweetwater sell them?
Share the video and the friends will come
Yes give us a part 2!
Can you do one for a home audience? You know, some of us might not be engineers but I just love trying to get great sound at home that takes me back to a gig or brings the most out of the music for enjoyment.
Great video! Thanks. I have noticed exactly the same thing over the years how if I averaged out all of my EQ's I have so many similarities as well. I havent done it myself as I didnt want to add / remove from certain things. For instance I dont like putting EQ on acoustic and electric guitar if I can help it at all. I always try fix the source first. So on stage fiddling with the musicians EQ on his acoustic and 99.9% of the time it sounds just perfect. Just roll off the lows with a HPF. Same for electric, if there is a amp I listen to the source. If the source is good then I will play with mic position roll off the lows and 99% of the time you have an amazing sound. But watching your video makes me realize I should give it a try. It will also save the other engineers loads of time if the channels just "sound" good from scratch. Great video. Please post more!
i much prefer to tune a system to a well produced song, i bought a dbx driverack ran it with the mic and it was awful! no serious sound system uses sm58 mics, i prefer beta 58 at a push but actially own beta 87's , used to use beyer tgx 80's, great sound but as fragile as eggs!
No tuner here, just having been to a good many festivals, and I have frequently wondered if the guy at the mixing desk is deaf or something (and same with the journos who would write a review saying the concert was sullied by low volume). Another thing is that high-pitch tones has a tendency to break up into painful noise IMO. The most interesting example of mixing craft though was one day where the sound had been dull and muddled the whole day until David Bowie came on stage and it was loud enough to blow out your eardrums while still being crystal clear - and the only difference was the guy at the mixing desk.
Okay hold up 😂😂😂 i love this video already and I'm only at 5 minutes 24 seconds, I'm dying at the sm58 dent that's mad relatable
Very intelligent and entertaining piece. I've been a studio (and sometimes live) engineer for over 50 years.....so I've see the technology evolve. I cut my real engineering chops on a board that had NO EQ whatsoever, drawing on the wisdom and experience of my teacher, Mack Emerman who would not allow you to touch an EQ until you had exhausted every possibility of microphone selection and positioning. What I see in the curve windows of boards these days is horrifying.
nice video. im just a tech but is feels good that I share the same ideas as someone that really know what hes doing..
YES!! Finally someone who understands Fletcher & Munson is the way to go! Especially good if you’re tuning a system made for long listening (read night clubs and such). It’s much smoother for the ears and all the sharp and annoying frequencies tend to disappear. People have been discussing house curves for ages on the internet but this rarely comes up as a subject, which surprise me.
Fun fact: I was tuning a couple of 2” compression drivers with big horns, oldschool you know, and Fletcher/Munson curve was the only way to make them sound natural and not honky. But when they where tuned right they sounded amazing.
I’ve been to sooo many nightclubs with bad tuned systems, and we talk about systems like Void and Funktion One. My ears hurt when I have to listening to 110db of flat response, but not at all with the right tuning.
I really hope this can be the new industry standard. And I know Harmann (JBL and so on…) for example have their own curve for headphones and such, very similar to Fletcher. They know their deal!
Jesus love you, he died on the cross for you, accept him as your lord and savior he can change everything. For God so loved the world that he gave his only son, so that everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal life" (Jn 3:16"
But you must repent too. From that time Jesus went about preaching and saying, Let your hearts be turned from sin, for the kingdom of heaven is near. (Matthew 4:17);
So silly....so off topic,so deeply absurd.Might be from Salem (smile)
YEAH FOR THE JOE SATCH SHOUTOUT! Time Machine is sooo good. Thanks for the video!
Nice insight! However, I feel that what you're after with your target curve is part of the "toning" process of the sound system. Which is a subjective topic. Tuning a sound system, for me at least, mostly deals with verification of the system, worrying about coverage, amount of subs, time alignment. I sometimes don't even have time to EQ the system (thankfully most system I handle are doing okay with just their factory presets) and leave toning to the mixer guys.
Yeah there is this distinction floating around between tuning and toning. It’s a fair distinction but to be honest not everybody uses it or has even heard of the distinction at all. Might be a good excuse to make another video!
I wished the sound crew in my region would watch this. We have been forced to stop attending a concerts due to the sound being well…horrible.
Plz can you give us a live demo of tunning with all the things you mentioned.
Learned how to tune by starting with a rta and 31 band eq for mains, then ringing out mains and monitors. Always played classical & rock to balance the overall eq. Tower of power to check highs & mids.
Part 2 please
Warning guys! If you're going to hire a rig, hire the engineer to go with it! You will definitely without a doubt, end up on your backside and be sorry if you don't!
I know for a fact if I go up to the PA i would hear something that bothers me and jwould ust change it and everyone is like what did you do it sounds way better! That is always me, it just took like 4 years to fine tune my ear and copy the sound of a 25k system and tune my old peavey speakers and cerwinvega subs like those PA speakers and I always beat the RCF and DAS speakers! So its all
Personal preference its just whose sound and taste will you most enjoy and be willing to pay for!
Lol.. the sure 58 with dent..lol everybody can relate…
3:58 same here, always ring out the monitors first, and some PA feedback.
4:40 Hahaha how recognizable! I even had 'an artist I toured with for 12 years. Complained about his in-ear sound. I PLF the out signal of the mixer, and ok. Then monitor the output of the HF transmitter output and also ok!.
Then later tell the artist give me the receiver and your own in-ears. Receiver signal ok. Then I put the in-ears in.... in 3 seconds I knew the problem.
So I go to the dressing room, to the artist and say, one of the in-ear speakers is blown! Didn't use limer either
Here in the Netherlands they go for cheap. If you ask € 10 too much, they go to another ...
Very sad...
but they do place high demands on the sound engineer...
8:50 I love the sense of relief when I see a vocal eq that looks damn near identical to the one I use as a starting point except I use a shelf at the high end and dont usually need to cut much of the high mids. I have imposter syndrome hardcore sometimes and I second guess my choices constantly. I dont know what to think when I have musicians and audience members tell me it was the best sound they heard either in a long time or ever. Are they just saying that to be nice? To me it could sound a lot better and after 15 years I'm almost to a point where I feel confident to try getting gigs at venues larger than 300 cap.
I too am my own worst critic. After 30+ years, I still think I could have done better. Even though the band and their followers say that’s the best they sounded.
Excellent video. Like others, I am waiting for part 2.
Just seen this video now after you uploaded it 2 years ago. And yeah I agree with you 100% on everything what you've said. And me too do the same thing tuning any system I am told to handle. Except for the pink noise area cause that kind of mic is not cheap here in the Philippines. Great video for new breed of wannabe audio system tech 👍👍👍
Got a new subscriber here 🤗🤗🤗. Keep it up.
Thanks!!! Glad you enjoyed it
I usually don't have too much time to tune so, over the years, starting off with Pink Noise to get the room acoustics in check, then listening to a handful of reference recordings like a couple of tracks off of Ramsey Lewis' Ivory Pyramid(Those GRP recordings sound amazing), to test dynamics and low to mid range performance, a couple more jazz tracks with good vox tracks to get smooth vocal response. Then I listen to a few more popular but well produced tracks from Michael Jackson and Bruno Mars along with Daft Punk to get the rest of the spectrum in line has worked well. I learned pretty quickly that just relying on a flat room eq curve never equates to smooth overall system sound and after a certain amount of time, will fatigue everyone's ear, especially if the show you're mixing is 3-4 hours long.
After I watch this video I don’t want to go to a live show cuz the sound will be messed up
The Fletcher Munson is always used as the standard on how humans hear sound. The funny thing is, only two people were sampled, Fletcher and Munson. Thankfully, neither one of them had bad hearing, so the curve is fairly accurate. I just find it funny that the big scientific standard is only based on 2 samples, lol.
I EQ every rental car that I get into… stay sharp my friends 😉
This is the way
Agree 100%, in my life there are too many people mixing to a picture instead of their ears. I had a similar experience when the audio-wizard I looked up to (and still do to some degree) spent around 20 min "tuning" a system based on the picture, ignoring what the sound was actually doing. I pointed out that it sounded weird, and that it wasn't sounding as good as he normally get is. then he actually listened and realized that he wasn't setup right, and he had to pretty-much start over. Though he got it running well pretty quickly after that. It just showed me that relying too much on these tools made him not listen, and my audience is not made of RTA mics, but other human ears. Now I try to trust my ears as much as possible and only bust out the RTA stuff if I'm in a really rough situation with too many unknowns or changing factors- or if I'm having an issue I cant sort-out quickly with ears alone.
I think it is great to have and teach standards. It super useful for new technicians to have a graph to tell them what is right, even if they haven't taken the time to develop their ears. But a well trained ear and listening ability is actually faster at catching problems than a meter in most cases. Especially the problems that will drastically effect your audience and performer/presenter. For my shows, if you see my laptop out as an RTA, it is because i don't trust something there.
There's a band I follow who are quite talented but their sound team is pure garbage. I can imagine people seeing them for the very first time live , just walking out because the sound is horrible. Don't hire friends if you aren't willing to fire friends when the sound sucks and sucks constantly not just due to differences in venues that can't be overcome..
Thanks for that video! I do concerts at school, but only a few times a year and I would count myself to the category only some skills and only very little vision so thanks for giving me a perspective of where to go!
As a final check I play pink panther and walk around, sometimes it reveals weird things, because I'm always in different rooms and places, and must react to the modes of the environment. A flat sounding system at the mic with an empty room is really not flat in the corners or when filled with people, not fan of real time either, so I prefer the ear, but on the final passes I move around, walk everywhere.
my favourite soundcheck songs are Queensryche - Silent Lucidity, Lenny Kravitz - American Woman, and Joe Cocker - Unchain My Heart.
That was a wicked video.
My ears are all knackered after lockdown from no work. I really like the eq game, thank you. I've picked up a Youngling to train, this'll help is both.
Now I want to hear Dream is Collapsimg on a big Pa System
Yes. Yes you do.
This is an interesting philosophy, and well explained, thanks! Could you replicate the same results by tuning with software, then apply your standard EQ curve to the result get your prefered tuning precisely?
Sir How to Manage 2 Type Sub. I mean 2 /3 types bass reflex sub , example - 1) Front Loaded
2) Hornload
2) Revers speaker sub
In one venue. How to manage it
Good solid info video .BUT, as time is often rare ..Just get your main vocal mike on a stand middle of stage ,set it with 100hz hi pass flat channel EQ and turn it up as loud as it will go on main PA, when it feeds back notch that out from flat on the main system graphic, keep raising gain and do it again till no feedback ,same with monitors .This technique is tried and trusted never fails for any size speaker or PA system.and takes minutes with no extra kit .
I would NEVER EQ a rig to a CD of some music I "Know" YOU EQ THE RIG TO THE LOUDEST MIC, no uncalibrated ears involved.
Ive engineered for 30 years and cringe when I babysit a lot of modern shows with brillient equipment where you just cant make out a word the main vocalist is singing or there is feedback, especially when they spend 10 minutes "sound checking" a snare drum!!
Dear Devin, you nailed it in ALMOST every topic, but I have to strongly disagree with you... An SM58 without a dent, its NOT an SM58. Thanks for all the tech info, greetings from Argentina!😁
This is a 3 year old video,maybe you changed your mind on some aspects since then.
Your method is great for system toning(not tuning) ,I use a similar method,but I still need a mic and measurement system (dual channel FFT) to properly align subs to mains,delays to main etc,I first make the tops flat, add the subs (never ever flat to main,depends on application but I do a minimum of 6dB extra gain for subs) and after that depending on how the system sounds with flat mains I adjust the eq.
I have a not yet verified theory that some systems require more gain reduction than others starting from flat tuned,in the 2.5 to 5 KHz area(an area where you also eq)depending on how much distorsion there is from the way the speaker is built(my guess is that large format HF drivers distort much more than a similar speaker but in a 3 way config with a dedicated mid speaker,the bandwith that the HF driver has to reproduce is quite wide and it strugles at doing that in the lower spectrum ,thus distorting more),but I need to study this more scientifically to demonstrate it.I have encountered some systems that sounded perfectly with a flat reponse from 100Hz to 20KHz,these have 5 HF units/array so I guess they do not distort as much as a single unit with a low x-over point.
What are your thoughts on this?
Definitely a helpful video (I saved it). I fall into the 2nd category. Good vision, good ears, but lack advanced and even some fundamental knowledge. For instance I wasn't familiar with several terms you used. Then again, sound engineering isn't my main gig. I did a fair amount of it in the 90s, but I'm mainly a player. These days I just end up being the guy who knows the most about it in the room...a room with no sound engineers. But I find myself wondering at too many live shows, "why the hell doesn't anyone pay attention to those ear-piercing mids?"
Typically only reference mics have a flat response curve with all other mics having drastically varying responsive curves. So be careful NOT to tune a FOH system to a vocal mic especially a mic that is different than the performers are using. The L R EQ affects every input signal...
Pink noise is flat. If youre EQing it with those Fletcher Munson curves, you're actually doubling them because once for your ears and once for your system. The Daniel Weiss "by ear" method is simply make a 0-whateverHz sweep, very slow over several minutes. Listen for the peaks and valleys and mark them in time, then check the frequencies and add adjustment until the sweep sounds flat. You get 95% of the way of software using this method.
Hi ...... I had a good laugh, I went the same way as you but 20 years before, the same mistakes to arrive at the same results.
thank you for your work, thank you for your curiosity, thank you for your pedagogy.
pls ! you can speak more slowly, it's difficult for French speakers, thank you
Actually one thing I would like to add is that sometimes you want a different sounding PA. For example a EDM Concert is supposed to sound a bit different than an evening Ball event I guess. 🐣
At 6:11 "compares it to the test microphone
input". With headphones? This part was a little unclear, because you were just talking about pink noise, so i assumed you're still talking about pink noise. But i get you mean the live mix of the show, not noise! Right? But, you're just ensuring the speakers sound the same as the board output. So you're assuming the board output is well-EQ'd. But what if the board output ISN'T well EQ'd?
If you run the output of your console into a software program that compares the frequency content against that of the signal from the test microphone in the environment, it can see what the speakers/environment are changing. This can be done in a static one-time test, or more advanced software can update the results in real time.
To add further clarity, in the example at 6:00 and following, this could be the test microphone result of a speaker system, and if white noise if being played through the speakers, we know what the frequency response should be and can EQ accordingly. In the examples from 6:14 and following, since this mic is picking up program content, we don't have a reference for what the frequency content should be, unless we sample it coming straight off the mixer before hitting the speakers and then being picked up by the test mic. In either case, the speakers are being EQ'd so that the resulting sound at the test mic location is not being frequency altered from the original source.
@@devinlsheets_alphasound In the case of program material, we're only EQ'ing the speakers to match the board output, right? So if the board output is flawed, then this method won't fix that.
@@johnywhy4679 the “board output” would be synonymous with “the mix” at that point. If the mix sucks… then yeah, doesn’t matter if the speakers EQ is set to match the board output signal.
Hats off to you Devin.... I can relate to what you've said in the video... Its alot like, you can never stop learning no matter how good you get😜
As a concert goer since the 80’s, why do you mixer/sound engineers think the audience needs to have the level of sound at 115+decibels over 300 feet from the stage ?? So much is lost in regards to quality of tone and listenability when the sound is so over done. I have worn ear plugs to cut down on at best 18 to 22 decibels since the 1990’s because concerts are too effing loud. Glad I had because at least I will be able to hear my grandchildren talk to me on the phone. Who ever thought the practice of extreme loudness is something people want or need? Most of the long term rock musicians themselves have hearing loss from decades of abuse. This has now made its way into movie theaters so I and my family refuse to go because the sound levels are ridiculously loud.
I owe you one! I strongly agree with your ideas, and the video you made was really helpful to me as a beginner at sound industry.
I hope that you'll create more videos and tutorials!
bro did you read my diary or what?? haha, this was awesome and the struggle is real, appreciate you
Really? I think your thinking you are the musician, for any mixers keep everything as close to unity as possible. Adjust frequencies for tge room, not much. Dont over complicate
My gf (this is her acc:) is audiotech, ty for giving me new comments to criticise/annoy her with!🤣😂 I might've used the "that resonating stage sounds amazing" comment a bit too often now 😇
hey everyone, im looking to start renting out a system for local open air parties. I had experience with setting up with a sound engineer in the past however the business have taken a turn for the worst since hiring some annoying assistants who made alot of patrons feel uncomfortable at our last open air. I`d love any recommendations on books/textbooks to learn more abouting tuning and setting up a system ourselves. For reference I also produce music since 3 years so am familiar with some mixing and EQ fundamentals. However would be open to a clean slate perspective if anyone had some! Thanks !
Starting to make sense to me now how I landed at the same conclusion of tuning by ear and using similar settings show to show after years of tuning flat with pink noise .
this.
When I am in indoor situations I play "Jack of Speed" by Steely Dan. It has a lot of good highs and lows and a lot of space so I can see how the room is reacting.
Luckily sound engineers are the only ones who actually give a shit how it sounds.
Unless it's way too loud, too quiet or there's a high pitch screech hurting everyone's ears, 99% of people won't even know whether it's good or bad.
That's the thing a lot of us audio heads forget, no one hears what we hear lol
Clubs are the worst . Different genres .One night rock next night highly compressed electronic next night HH Rap next night what evers popular .next night funk lolol they all totally different yes default then use your ears on artist you know
what I can say is most of sound engineers suck, but some of them are really brilliant. This « by ear » tuning is certainly a very good method, for the responsibility is on you and not on the equipment
Can someone who understands how home theatres know how to use these, by tunning a speaker with a spl meter and using the controls to make the sound not peak over its desible at its listening postion but also 1 meter at the speaker, also by knowing how much power the reciver can give to each speaker without the reciver losing power can do this, eq settings are also easy to me, your just tunning that frequency to the dsp volume that you want it to be at a certain listening position so if its quite at that frequency you can turn it up and if its over peacking which one it should never do you can turn it down because you shouldn't have a speaker packing at its listening position at 1 meter unless its peaking range is louder then the full volume it can go, idk i know how my works but it took me years to understand that.
I own a 5.2 powerful sound system that costed me 4.5k, its only used in a small space, i have the klipsch speaker set, dont need to know though, i ranged those at 80hz at 75dp at my listening position and the subs at 20hz the loudest both at 75dp, i set each volume on the spl at my listening position to that volume and set the meters at the listening position on what the setting had, i dont have any speakers peaking because its not going louder the maximum volume at its range from one meter which each info the speaker talks about.I
That's why I love a heavy house-curve from 20-100hz at about 4-5dB/octave. Sounds flat to me.
More videos plz
I just reset the whole mixer slide the faders up and then just adjust the EQ until it sounds good but most importantly doesn't feed back. I am the sound nerd in my band so rehearsal studios are awful for feedback.
О! Я не один такой, оказывается. А то господа "плоскоземельцы" заполонили ) 😀 Thnx!
been saying this at SAE in 1999 , what eartraining tools do you guys like to use??
love your vid.
i don`t think this video is about system tuning at all. the main talking point is just doing a pleasing master EQ for a system. and mainly for own workflow needs. it would be crazy to do system design and speaker alignment on a large scale by ear. let`s say you need to hide an overlap of two summing speakers that are not phase linear with each other. such ears don`t exist that can tell difference in arrival times of single frequencies. even if you only had to separate local trends from general trends in a room you should use measurement data when installing a system. everyone usually pays the same money for the ticket so every seat should be equal..
by software that will change the system tuning as the room changes, do you mean like R1? or will a LAKE do this?
Wierd to find this channel as a now sound nerd living abroad in central America and Australia growing up in Salem Oregon and building the cardboard castle at Salem art fair in my childhood with my family.
We loved the cardboard maze!
Great video, thanks. I used this method last night to eq my band's system, and it's the best we've ever sounded. Big help!
I’m in the No Vision No Skill category. Hence I’m here!! 😂😂
Nice video
I’ve always tuned with my voice…but I am a singer….if you are not a singer …do something else…
I have been running FOH since 1977 in both huge events and tiny venues. With audiences that ranged from 25k down to 3-4 people. I like your analytical approach and you “get it” as far as tweaked are concerned. Ear training is key and understanding the dynamics of what makes a room sound the way it does is key. I totally agree that you need to be proficient with your equipment possess the ability to listen critically. Your ears and the ability to listen critically are paramount.
This is a good basic knowledge of system tuning
Best part was the sm58 with a dent in it 😂
I totally agree with learing the tune a system by ear. You become better as a sound engineer and also in-tuned with either bumping lacking or cutting hot and problematic frequencies whether indoor or outdoor venues!
5:10 The SM-58 is not properly calibrated until it has a dent in it. 😅
They make sm58’s without the dent?!?
😂😂😂
"Im Setting This Exact Setup Up Here For A Gazziliont Time So This Is unique opportunity "
LMFAO !
Thanks for the video : I concur 100%
Very inspiring! What app or other tools do you use for ear training on those long drives?
I tune the system to a playlist i made where every song has something that help me do the calibration.
Wait a minute. So basically you went old school with modern digital consoles by not using channel and master Eq presets and doing almost from the scratch as fast as possible at every gig?
yup!
@@devinlsheets_alphasound love this approach.. to my ears 1990 to 2005 live sound from most of my favourite bands sounds better than now... Yes i understand that we can transfer the studio sound to the live stage but in the end of they day people pay to hear a more live raw performance...
Please Part 2 😍😍
ya Part 2 would be great