Thanks to you Micheal Curtis For through your teachings I'm graduating as A very Cool Sound Engineer Who can Be trusted wherever I go for A Gig. I have learnt something about the two combinations of the 15"" and 18"" SUBs
Watching a lot of your videos lately and I'm very grateful for all the information you provide. Started reading "Sound Systems: Design and Optimization" by Bob McCarthy and really do enjoy digging into this topic. Thanks for your work!
Hello Michael, can you please explain on how do a graphic looks or whats the best position if you place main speakers and subs facing each other on a rectangular building, two mains and 2 subs on each side 🙏🏼
Very appropriate the way that you show us set up for PA. Is DBX DriverRack PA management Can Also align correctly PA sub without to use open sound meter?
I'm a DJ and I often have to do big school Grads with 1500 plus guests. Schools don't have huge budgets, so I can't charge them enough to allow me to rent extra gear and have to make the best of what I have. I can cover the mid/highs no problem but of course kids that age want lots of hip hop and lots of low end. I have 2 older QSC hpr181i subs that I usually put together side by side in front of center stage with the mid/high's at the left and right. It sounds OK (even though I have to spend all night removing peoples drinks from the subs). I also have 2 older Mackie SWA1501's. Is there any way I could incorporate those into the setup for a little more bass coverage or would that cause problems? Any feedback would be appreciated!
Great video but you forgot one very important thing. How far apart the subs are from each other. In order to get this summation, they have to be close to or right against each other. Most like to place subs 1/4 wavelength or closer together of a given frequency within the desired bandwidth. For example, 80hz is approximately 15 feet in length so you'd want the 2 subs to be closer to each other than 3 1/2 feet. I like to go 1/8th wavelength or right up beside each other. When the subs start to be farther away from each other than that then it will affect the summation depending on the listening location in the form of power alley.
Great video! But how do you physically align different sized subwoofers when you start playing with delays to get the phasing right? Place them so the front grills line up or what?
Great video, super helpful! Related question, is it possible to use two different subs (KS112 & KW181 for example) to create a cardioid sub configurations? Which driver would you position forwards vs back/ invert polarity? How would level matching between the two different subs help or hinder? Thanks for your time!
Yes, it is possibly to combine two different subs for a cardioid setup as long as they're matched in level and have a similar phase response. Just know your headroom will need to be limited to the small/less SPL capable sub. I'd put the sub with the smaller driver facing forward.
Hi Michael, I am quite a noob and I am very intrigued by your videos. I've already watched your video about the 2 sub placement. I have 2 different subs (15 and 18 inch alto pro) and was also interested in the subject of this video. How is the speaker placement related in your 15+18 sub combo example? Because both measurements are done 2M in front of the sub, I assume that in this hypothetical situation, the subs are stacked. Is this correct? How would the sub placement with a certain distance in between instead of polarity inversion have an effect on the sound? Or should I bring the subs as close as possible to each other with 1 in polarity inversion? Thanks!
great Michael. I wanted to ask you if possible. if I have 2 x18 subs and 2 x15 subs is it possible to create a line gradient by placing the 15 subs behind? I've seen that many companies make subs that start out cardioid but have different speakers inside
I'm struggling to understand some of the fundamentals here. What exactly is the phase response of a single loudspeaker? My understanding of phase is that it's when two or more sound sources arrive at a single point and due to differing propagation paths one source may be say 90 degrees phase shifted from the other at a given frequency. How can a single loudspeaker have a phase response? Surely it's perfectly in phase with itself at all frequencies?
Speaker drivers don’t typically respond at the same speed to different frequencies due to the mass of the driver, lower frequencies taking longer. These responses can be smoothed with digital filters, but that only works for higher frequencies as the low ones would require an unacceptable amount of processing delay to correct due to their longer wavelengths. Also any speaker using All Pass Filters for pattern control (D&B, Meyer) will have a 180* phase wrap wherever the APF is used. Those phase traces look real funny 😄
My biggest question is what do you do when you show up to an event and then there's different types of subwoofers, from different manufacturers. Without analyzation equipment and time to download files. How would you deploy these for the best sound would you just put them side by side in a center configuration and leave them be or would you actually try to cardioid them even though they're different manufacturers without any kind of measurements or equipment... Not everyone has access to laptops measurement equipment and microphones so we need to be able to figure out how to set this stuff up without software..
Great question. I'd assess the gig and see how much of a positive impact a cardioid setup would bring. Then also see if I need the SPL output of both subs vs just a single sub. I would put the two subs right next to each other, turn one on and one off, listen to pink, then turn the other on as well and listen to the result. If the level got softer, invert polarity on one and listen again. It could also be a timing thing, not necessarily polarity.
If I am following this alignment process in real life, should I still hit hit 'apply estimated delay' when taking measurements in Open Sound Meter or will that mess with the data?
OSM will have a very hard time applying any estimated delay on a subwoofer. It doesn't have a "spike" in the impulse response to latch on to (which is only present in high frequencies). I would plug in a delay value yourself with one of the subs soloed to get the phase flat in the center of the sub range, then kick on your other sub soloed and compare.
wow... for years I been telling my friends to dont buy all kind of subs or speaker just cause they are cheap. I used to tell them to just stick to one model... I never though phase alignment was this critical.
If the 18" reached down far enough below the 15" that'd be an interesting topic to cover, for sure. For these two particular subs there's too much overlap in frequency response and not enough LF extension in the 18" to pull that off.
Second this request. I run 21” Othorns with ES18s above. Would be interested in a 2 way subs crossover and alignment video. Also could be interesting to see your approach and comments on some DIY rigs as I’m sure a heap of your audience is here to learn how to tune the rigs they built. 🤙
Hi! You made my day, I uploaded this measurement to tracebook! It's so cool to be in your video! One of my dreams came true!
Very cool! Thanks for letting me know and I appreciate you uploading the trace. Have a good one.
This is so technical and I feel I need to do it on my entire 3 systems.
Thanks to you Micheal Curtis For through your teachings I'm graduating as A very Cool Sound Engineer Who can Be trusted wherever I go for A Gig. I have learnt something about the two combinations of the 15"" and 18"" SUBs
Watching a lot of your videos lately and I'm very grateful for all the information you provide. Started reading "Sound Systems: Design and Optimization" by Bob McCarthy and really do enjoy digging into this topic. Thanks for your work!
So glad to hear that! Make sure to check out Michael Lawrence's book, Between The Lines: Concepts In Sound System Design & Alignment, as well.
Very informative. Thanks Michael
fantastic. if you had the two subs, would you then set them up and tweak the delay and volume to see what sounds best?
I'm wondering the same thing!
great video! well done.
Golden!!! Thanks Michael!!
A superb video once again.
Awesome and helpful video! Thanks mate!
Hello Michael, can you please explain on how do a graphic looks or whats the best position if you place main speakers and subs facing each other on a rectangular building, two mains and 2 subs on each side 🙏🏼
Very appropriate the way that you show us set up for PA.
Is DBX DriverRack PA management Can Also align correctly PA sub without to use open sound meter?
I'm a DJ and I often have to do big school Grads with 1500 plus guests. Schools don't have huge budgets, so I can't charge them enough to allow me to rent extra gear and have to make the best of what I have. I can cover the mid/highs no problem but of course kids that age want lots of hip hop and lots of low end. I have 2 older QSC hpr181i subs that I usually put together side by side in front of center stage with the mid/high's at the left and right. It sounds OK (even though I have to spend all night removing peoples drinks from the subs). I also have 2 older Mackie SWA1501's. Is there any way I could incorporate those into the setup for a little more bass coverage or would that cause problems? Any feedback would be appreciated!
Great video but you forgot one very important thing. How far apart the subs are from each other. In order to get this summation, they have to be close to or right against each other. Most like to place subs 1/4 wavelength or closer together of a given frequency within the desired bandwidth. For example, 80hz is approximately 15 feet in length so you'd want the 2 subs to be closer to each other than 3 1/2 feet. I like to go 1/8th wavelength or right up beside each other. When the subs start to be farther away from each other than that then it will affect the summation depending on the listening location in the form of power alley.
You're right. I cover how physical displacement affects coverage pattern extensively in other videos, so didn't want to double up here.
Greetings, I have a problem, open sound meter there is a sampling frequency error, when I have the vector
Thank you 🎉🎉 😊
Great video! But how do you physically align different sized subwoofers when you start playing with delays to get the phasing right? Place them so the front grills line up or what?
You measure it. You can put everything in one line just dont forget that you need an extra processing output for this kind of setup.
Thanks for the video, how about sending kickdrum only to the 18s and then bass guitar only to the 15s
That'd be an interesting way to divide up LF duties. Give it a whirl.
Great video, super helpful! Related question, is it possible to use two different subs (KS112 & KW181 for example) to create a cardioid sub configurations? Which driver would you position forwards vs back/ invert polarity? How would level matching between the two different subs help or hinder? Thanks for your time!
Yes, it is possibly to combine two different subs for a cardioid setup as long as they're matched in level and have a similar phase response. Just know your headroom will need to be limited to the small/less SPL capable sub. I'd put the sub with the smaller driver facing forward.
Hi Michael,
I am quite a noob and I am very intrigued by your videos. I've already watched your video about the 2 sub placement. I have 2 different subs (15 and 18 inch alto pro) and was also interested in the subject of this video. How is the speaker placement related in your 15+18 sub combo example? Because both measurements are done 2M in front of the sub, I assume that in this hypothetical situation, the subs are stacked. Is this correct?
How would the sub placement with a certain distance in between instead of polarity inversion have an effect on the sound?
Or should I bring the subs as close as possible to each other with 1 in polarity inversion?
Thanks!
Are you local in Tucson? I’m just a hobbiest but have some phase alignment woes that might be good content for you.
great Michael. I wanted to ask you if possible. if I have 2 x18 subs and 2 x15 subs is it possible to create a line gradient by placing the 15 subs behind? I've seen that many companies make subs that start out cardioid but have different speakers inside
nice one!
I'm struggling to understand some of the fundamentals here. What exactly is the phase response of a single loudspeaker? My understanding of phase is that it's when two or more sound sources arrive at a single point and due to differing propagation paths one source may be say 90 degrees phase shifted from the other at a given frequency. How can a single loudspeaker have a phase response? Surely it's perfectly in phase with itself at all frequencies?
Speaker drivers don’t typically respond at the same speed to different frequencies due to the mass of the driver, lower frequencies taking longer. These responses can be smoothed with digital filters, but that only works for higher frequencies as the low ones would require an unacceptable amount of processing delay to correct due to their longer wavelengths.
Also any speaker using All Pass Filters for pattern control (D&B, Meyer) will have a 180* phase wrap wherever the APF is used. Those phase traces look real funny 😄
My biggest question is what do you do when you show up to an event and then there's different types of subwoofers, from different manufacturers. Without analyzation equipment and time to download files. How would you deploy these for the best sound would you just put them side by side in a center configuration and leave them be or would you actually try to cardioid them even though they're different manufacturers without any kind of measurements or equipment... Not everyone has access to laptops measurement equipment and microphones so we need to be able to figure out how to set this stuff up without software..
Great question. I'd assess the gig and see how much of a positive impact a cardioid setup would bring. Then also see if I need the SPL output of both subs vs just a single sub. I would put the two subs right next to each other, turn one on and one off, listen to pink, then turn the other on as well and listen to the result. If the level got softer, invert polarity on one and listen again. It could also be a timing thing, not necessarily polarity.
@@MichaelCurtisAudio Great response! Thanks for the input. Been trying to figure this out all week
@@MichaelCurtisAudio It's pretty crazy how you can pretty much hear power alleys and valleys if you just walk around..
If I am following this alignment process in real life, should I still hit hit 'apply estimated delay' when taking measurements in Open Sound Meter or will that mess with the data?
OSM will have a very hard time applying any estimated delay on a subwoofer. It doesn't have a "spike" in the impulse response to latch on to (which is only present in high frequencies).
I would plug in a delay value yourself with one of the subs soloed to get the phase flat in the center of the sub range, then kick on your other sub soloed and compare.
Nyimak master
Is open sound meter safe to use on windows 11
wow... for years I been telling my friends to dont buy all kind of subs or speaker just cause they are cheap. I used to tell them to just stick to one model... I never though phase alignment was this critical.
Luckily it is no longer necessary to normalize the content in the txt file. At least for the people using OSM.
I had hoped for using the 18” as infra below the 15”. Not making them do the same frequencies.. Hint-hint..
If the 18" reached down far enough below the 15" that'd be an interesting topic to cover, for sure. For these two particular subs there's too much overlap in frequency response and not enough LF extension in the 18" to pull that off.
Second this request. I run 21” Othorns with ES18s above. Would be interested in a 2 way subs crossover and alignment video. Also could be interesting to see your approach and comments on some DIY rigs as I’m sure a heap of your audience is here to learn how to tune the rigs they built. 🤙