TECH: LIVE SOUND SUBS SUBWOOFER PLACEMENT & CONFIGURATION - LR, Center, Line, Cardioid, End Fire
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- Опубліковано 27 жов 2024
- Live Sound Sub Subwoofer Configurations: LR, LCR, Center, Line, Cardiod, End Fire.
A basic open-space graphical overview of each of the above configs from BAD to BEST.
#musicianspro
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Thanks for this brilliant video. It's a shame so many sound engineers in smaller places think 'left/right' setup is the only way to run it... you have no idea how many little arguments I've run into when setting up sound for bands! This video is really excellent so thanks for making it and making it so clear too!
But what can i do other than LR when there is no stage and the artists act between the stacks? :/
@@MowBTCI think they leant LR for the subs only, not for the other foh speakers
Very glad I clicked on this video. Exactly what I was looking for, and straight to the point. Thank you.
Great breakdown! I share this video on any forum platform when someone asks about sub placement.
This is so magical, my brain exploded.
Thanks! For cardioid configs, on a small system, (say less that 6,000 W total, including subs and tops), I could theoretically set up 3 identical subs (delayed properly) with 2 tops, and theoretically melt faces? Keep in mind, I realize that "melt faces" is not really quantifiable, especially since I included no specific speaker in the statement. But it could really improve the low end performance of the system.
wow this is the best explanation of sub array I've seen (only now seeing it in 2024) are you guys still making videos and what software you use to configure your subs
I'm a amateur sound engineer (lol at 52) and really will like to acquire more practical skills and software to make my job easier and sound great ( I'm doing all rightish and getting better)
Great information. Clear and concise introduction to the topic of Sub placement and configurations. I appreciate this and your other videos!
Thanks Todd. I hope it helps.
Great information and video. The down side to this is the software models with no walls,ceilings etc. Inside you'll have to deal with walls,ceilings, and depending on deployment the height of the subs. Still less bass overall will be generated on stage. When you add these in then the spl numbers change but it is better than not doing it at all.
Absolutely - this is a basic overview video. All models are in open space.
@Hendrix Sergio I really appreciate your reply. I found the site on google and Im waiting for the hacking stuff now.
Looks like it's gonna take a while so I will get back to you later when my account password hopefully is recovered.
Finaly i fould coherent short explanation of what i was assuming :D Tyvm Sir!
I just learned something! Thanks for such a clear explanation. Take care.
Very informative, thanks Sean. The diagram really puts it in perspective!
Loved the visuals .
Clear and precise, thanks man... I like to try the end fire or cardiod...
cant tell you how helpful this is ty brother
Really useful video, so good to see all this visualized. Nice work.
Very well explained and easy to understand. Thank you!
Glad it was helpful!
Great info! But I would have liked to see the end-fire and line array combo... end-fire configure with spacing between the cabinets like the line array setup...
+Stephen Kamin - It would be verysimilar with just a wider beam as you space out the subs.
+MusiciansPro The Line arc looks to have two power alleys ... I was just curious to see how they developed on the end-fire configuration.
Really well done. Thank you.
Incredible, I was running my LS801ps last night in a club and I was very dis-pleased with the coverage.. been looking into a cardioid pattern.. i wonder how to do that with the LS801ps inside a small club... I swear, it sound better if i only use 1.
Try placing both of them center stage / Venue next time. Leave 4 feet behind them if their is a wall.
Join both subs in the same position. No cancellation and u'll think a speaker is added. Works for me everytime.
Thank you for this information!
really nice video here!!!
I've heard that if you use spaced across array you should delay the subs the longer away from center stage they come, I guess this would also be the case for the LCR config. Is this correct? how do I figure out the delay times if that's the case?
I don't understand how you dislike this video
Probably, Nathan Lively. LOL
Awesome video! How do you go about configuring the “line” setup? Do you just determine a distance between each sub and evenly spread them out?
How do you determine the placement from front row to back row.does this work with 4/6 Sub's too
Determine the FREQ that you want to null. Find its wave length. Divide by 4. That length would be the distance.
Great video
Thank you
You're welcome
Thanks for the good graphical display of the arrangements. It makes it clear when you see it. How would the end fire arrangement be affected if the rear subs were placed against a wall. I am a mobile dj/sound guy and would like to try this arrangement indoors if possible, with 2 double 15's and with 4 double 15's in a big enough hall.
Thank for the tutorial. This is good insight for better live sound productions..
Thank you...
Thanks for the great video ...I'm new to livesound..just wanna ask ,,can any subwoofer speaker work with this software?
Great tutorial.
I'm doing small event is a car show ,
I have 2 top 12 in and one cardio subwoofer
I'm set on the middle of a street
People will be on left and right
What's the best setup with my speakers
Thanks
That explains why I couldn’t hear the bass guitar at the Count Basie theater from the isle seat in the center section.
Could you share which software this is? How do i find out the spacing i need for my subs (EV ETX18 and QSC HPR181)
Hmm, I would only be "fair" to simulate the Cardioid with 8 Subs aswell. Like the other methods :) (Do these 4 Subs add something to the loudness of the FOH or are they pure for the cancellation?)
Great video! Thanks!
How does the pattern change with frequency? I realise the distances and delays are frequency dependent, how should I think about it?
tifius - yes, the patters do change with frequency. Higher is more directional. Lower is more omni.
Thanks for the quick response. So if I want an optimal "infire" setup for a higher frequency than 67hz I should decrase the phyiscal distance and delay time between the front and back row of subs?
tifius - yes. The concept of endfire is very simple. Pick the Freq you want max cancelation. Find its 1/4 wave length. Space your subs by that distance. (Front to front). Then delay the front row for that distance to create summation in the front field.
nice super usefull video
How do you determine how many inches / feet you seperate 4 subs in front center to change from a center set up to a line set up to add bass to the sides of the room that you lose by having all 4 touching one another in dead center? I understand more bass would be in center with the coupling effect of a true center position but I am willing to give up some center bass to add some to the power valleys out to left and right stage. Thanks, I'm guessing 8 inches to 12 inches apart, or do I need more than that??? The 4 subs are JBL PRX815XLFW. The cabinets are only 17.5 inches wide.
Hey, what program are you using?
Which technique would you employ with 4 sub cabinets? 2 sub cabinets?
Hello. very nice video. I wanted an information on end fire mode. do subs have to be close to each other on the line? I have 4, can I leave some space between the subs?
Hello, nice video, I'm wondering what software you use for this video? I use MAPP from Meyer (for learning) but it obviously got only Meyer speakers in it. Thanks.
dB Technologies Composer.
I have 6 subwoofers (horn subwoofers) that run in the 35-80hz range at most
I want to put them in a line, spaced.
How to calculate the ideal space betweeen the subwoofers?
Thanks in advance!
Have you ever tried using the end fire system under the stage i'm interested in finding out how this works
I have not and probably would not. In theory, reflection interference could mess up the end-fire effect -and- you could get a significant rumble and rattle on stage.
Hi! Does anyone know what is the name of the software that is used in this video? Thanks!
Great video! Is there a specific way to measure the best way to place the subwoofers in a line? For example if I have 6-8 of them, what would be the best way to spread them out along the front of the stage?
Hey. Been learning about the "why", and not just the "how" lately. It has to do with frequency lengths of the highest frequency coming out of your sub's (crossover point). The higher the frequency, the shorter the length. For example, 80 hz frequency is about 14 feet long. You do not want to go beyond 2/3 of that length in spacing between the subs. That is measured from center sub to center sub, not from edge to edge. If you go beyond that, then you get the lobes, cancellations, etc. Lynx pro Audio Expert Guide Positioning Subwoofers, is a good article. P.S. I don't own lynx pro subs, I own behringer subs. Have a good one. Carl P.S.S. If you go beyond 1/3 of the length, then you lose any bounce in volume by having two subs next to each other.
Wil u please suggest matching sub woffer i had a pair of avion 515xt jbl speakers ..planing to purchase singel sub woffer...thanks
Great job sean?
If I put 4 single 18" subwoofers in the center at a distance of 1.5 m or 2 m between them, will they connect?
Do you know where to get some info on the "line" speaker setup? I'm sure the math has to do with the size of wavelengths or something (or maybe I am completely off). I think for the equipment I have using the line instead of just coupling them in the center would be perfect. Thanks!
+DJ Fayze - There are a couple of options available in the LINE config. Standard line spacing and LINE ARC with delays on the cabs as they move away from center. You should be able to Google more info or check with you speaker maker to get the settings they sugges.
great information... thanks man. please which software did you use for the prediction?
dB Technologies Composer
what do we place subs when we have a stage in the middle of a venue with audiences all around a rectangular stage?
I am working on a show right now and I always do center only (I only have 2 subs) and the bass is amazing from the front center to the back but drops off to the sides, this is a wide auditorium that fits about 800, any recommendations to spread it out more?
Subs are almost omni-directional unless you are using a special config to stear the low end -OR- you have other issues going on causing an anomaly. Try to get a SPL reading with just one sub on at all 4 sides of the sub. Then add the other and take another SPL reading. Did the SPL pattern change from Omni to more directional?
With a few more subs you can create a "LINE" which really widens the pattern. See the video for the SPL plot.
Hi, what is the program you are calculating everything in ? Im trying to find one but cant seem to do so ? Thx
@MusiciansPro I tried a center setup tonight with two active subwoofers. But I still had some issues with phase and bass-cancellation. Is it okay to have one sub in-phase en one out-phase? For me this resulted in the best performance, although I hoped for a little bit more 'oomph' in the lower end. Thanks for this great video, hopefully I will have the budget for more sophisticated setups in the future!
In theory, if you had 2 identical subs placed side by side and it sounded better out of phase - you have a major problem somewhere. Typically putting 2 subs out of phase from each other would almost cancel their output, not make it sound better or louder.
+MusiciansPro Thanks for your quick reply, it's really highly appreciated! The subs are identical, same make/model, however I bought the second one a couple of months after the initial purchase. That shouldn't matter right? Or could it be that it is technical fault and something is wrong with the buttons on the amp? What I hear is the following, both subs in or both out-phase >> bass cancellation. One in, one out >> no cancellation, but not the additional output / smoother low end response -I was expecting from two subs. :)
What is the brand and model? You may need to check the polarity of the speakers, they could be reversed which would put them out of phase. I would contact your dealer.
+MusiciansPro They are defintely not high end subs: Alto TS Sub 18. Thanks for your feedback. I will contact my dealer after the weekend!
What did you find out about your subs?
Hi! thanks, what program are you using?
Marijn It looks like DB Technologies Composer
That 1.64 spacing, is it in meters or feet?
I have 2 questions, 1: Does the Cardioid configuration give you any additional summation in the front? Like is it more efficient? We don't have many subs (6) or wattage to work with so I'm trying to maximize it, also, can you run it as a Line-Cardioid? Or does the spacing then mess up the cardioid pattern? I've tested that in Mapp XT and it seems like it'd work ok, but not as great. But again, I can't afford to put them all together because I only have access to 6 subs. Thanks in advance!
I think it depends. If you have your audience side subs delayed for the time difference to the other sub(s) then you'll get more level out front, and some cancellation behind the subs. If you set it up with the polarity of the back sub flipped, and delay this sub for the time from the front sub, then you'll get much more cancellation behind, but also get some cancellation out front.
What did you end up doing and how did it turn out? Chinese clone D&B Audiotechnik 3*21 SL Subwoofers (designed as cardioid) is what I'm going with but even then the cost adds up.
@@stiffmeister0hYeah Outdoors, I use a "Smiley-face" configuration, I use the speaker pole screwed into the subs for my PA tops now (QSC KLA, 2 per side) so I put 1 sub Left, 1 sub right, ON the stage/trailer/whatever we get, then 2 or 4 subs in the center often as a spaced line, sometimes center cluster, all depends on the situation. So, 1 sub left at head-height, 2-4 on the ground in the middle, then 1 Right at head-height. But mostly what I've learned is, it doesn't really matter all that much on how you configure them for PA systems this size it really doesn't change the sound/coverage much at all. And it CERTAINLY doesn't mean much inside like in the winter when I do smaller bar type gigs. The PA deployment config doesn't mean as much at this level as it does when you start getting way more boxes involved and/or are outside in a large area. In that case, the best configuration to my ears, and that I've used, was 16 subs in 2x2 blocks. So 4 blocks of subs, spaced evenly across the front of the stage (with a center fill on top each block). That system freaking ROCKED man, that was a ton of fun to play with lol.
@@djjazzyjeff1232 ok I got it with the subs. My mains are DZR315 and I only have one pair. Problem with those is that you can't hang them or use a pole mount!! The Yamaha videos/brochure ha them sitting on top of a left/right sub. So I guess I will purchase another pair just in case (first). Yamaha brochure also shows a second set of DZR not as center fill, but on the sides of the audience far from the stage (not center fill). All good, at least two pair. No way I'm paying for 16 subs but I'm ok with 8.
@@stiffmeister0hYeah That big system wasn't mine, I wouldn't do that either I don't want to have that type of investment in gear+ having to maintain it all sounds like a nightmare, I'll leave that for the big production and rental places lol. I used a system very comparable to that for a LOT of years with really good results. JBL Dual-15 +Horn tops, 2 18s under it (with a 3/4inch shim behind the Top speaker to angle it down just slightly) and were pretty much stuck with that config. If you find yourself on a trailer or a stage though, you can just set the speaker ON the corner of the stage. I did that plenty of times, then did a spaced pair across the front of my 4-6 subs, under the stage if possible just so they don't get bonked by shit all night. I've also heard good sounding systems with only a Single-15 on each side sitting right on the deck of the stage and a single 18 under each. Sure power-alley and valley were really apparent, but it wasn't too bad for such a big space with so little PA, it sounded pretty dang good.
Would you consider facing the sub at each other at opposite sides of the walls in a closed club environment? Why not? I am considering to stack or put the sub side by side to optimize the sub's coverage
What is the software you used to do these simulations?
Conner Olson I'm curious !
Conner Olson - I use dB Technologies Composer, but there are many free programs that will do this.
and what are those free softwares? would you recommend me one? Would I be able to simulate or analyze the hall acoustic of my place?
Please tell us names of those free software
Meyer's MAPP XT
Thanks for the video!
I have some questions left, how is the impact of stacking subwoofers? if i put 3 subs as a tower in the middel does it have the same curve like a single one? and whats the best configs for 2-6 subs? will be creating a end fire out of 4 subs make sense? it would be nice to get help with my trouble. greets sascha :)
Good question... I would like to know the answer as well.
for 3 is the example from min. 04:00 (cardioid) and for 6 is described at 4:20 (from upside you can see just 4 grey squares, 4x3=12 ). if I am wrong, help me to understand where.
Thank You For The Great Video :) I do have a Question , I have a great Party and Jam Space, it is 26 ft wide 40 ft long and 16 ft high, The walls and the floor are concrete, I have carpeted the floors and the walls are 50% carpeted about 10 ft high, I do have a loud system for the top I have 700 watts RMS Tower Speakers, and for the Bottom Low`s I have 2 x1000 watt Bass Reflex Sub`s , and 2 x EV T18`s , I have replaced them with more powerful Subwoofer Basket`s 1000 watt QSC`s, I`m Running Loud speaker management system by DBX, and second Set of EQ`S i HAVE 3 amp`s The QSC is being used for the two Bass Reflex subs, The Yorkville amp Is being used for the T18`s They are Bass Scoop, and The MACKIE is Driving the Top Speaker`s. I have a PV Crossover for the T 18`s because they are recommended to Run on a Different Frequencies ..My Drum`s are fully Miked and the kick I`m using a mike and Sub kick Box . My Problem is I don`t know much about sound Systems, I`m Just Learning, and I do love loud and clean sound, That`s why I did spent the money, My 2 x T 18`s are not hooked up yet Because I don`t know how to set up the Crossover. I would like to get that chest pounding Kick drum and Floor Tom Sound`s, Can You Help Please, I Thank You In Advance :)
It sounds like you have a lot of mis-matched gear. This will always be a problem and never time or sum properly. The best option is to always have matched speakers that are powered and processed from the manufacturer.
The problem with the video is it shows what is clearly stated as the setup that is most commonly used- two subs under two tops, AND how that setup is usually laid out, then says it’s the worst possible thing. Followed by showing different more elaborate setups that suck. And finally a setup that is nowhere near the setup most commonly used that doesn’t suck.
How about a video showing how to configure the setup most commonly used do it does NOT suck?
Setting up a very small p.a for small cover band. Playing very small venues 100-200 people tops. Running powered Mackie speakers. 2- 2 way 15" tops and 1 - 15" sub. Using the built in crossover in the sub. The plan is to pole mount 1 - 15 on the sub, the 2nd 15 on a tri-pod. My intention is to place them about 16' apart with the subwoofer side about 1.5' from a wall. Will this work for a decent front of house sound?
2 tops on 2 tripods in LR config. Sub in Center is the best option.
Здравствуйте, подскажите пожалуйста,если 2 саба как их лучше подключить в моно или в стерео?
what about the horn planar setup? the horn push the energy forward. thanks!
So if I only have 2 subs in a church size of around 400 ppl and has a balcony, is it better to put them both in center than left right?
Yes, better for most consistent sound. Better physically or logistically is another question.
Hello, how do you come up with 4.44ft of spacing in the end fire array? thanks
1/4 of the length of the wave you want with the most cancellation.
Thanks, let's say if I want the most cancellation at 90Hz, how much approximate cancellation at 50hz? ...3, 5, 7..... dB down?
That could be calculated, but is beyound the scope of this video. Hoever you will have a noticible dB reduction within the 1/2 octave reange of your center freq. Aprox. 90Hz = 45 Hz range (68-102Hz)
With the center placement with the small gaps about is their any delay to each sub from the center or just spaced I know if they are
All on a line no pace you delay them
in a CENTER config - you will only DELAY the subs to align with your tops. You do not delay sub to sub. Only the Line/Arc has a progressive delay sub to sub which creates the arc. You also must use delay for cardiod and end fire.
@@MusiciansPro Now how about answering my question asked 3 months ago.... Please ???
sharktoothdiver - we get hundreds of replies and questions per month. We can’t answer them all.
@@MusiciansPro I understand. Could you then just answer one of my questions as best as you could? Skip the rest of the long post below. If I choose a line of 4 JBL PRX815XLFW subs, approx. how far apart would I place them if in the center area but not all touching. (your 4th example, not your 3rd) Thank you very much.
Musicians Pro, I have (4) JBL PRX815XLFW subs and tried left right and left center right with obviously no luck and now understand per your great video. So I tried all 4 in the center and it did sound much better but the bass on stage made it very hard for the musician and those lobes or power alleys 45 degrees off stage were bad. I'd like to try a line setup in the center with spacing between the subs yet keeping them still center. I don't mind the small loss of the 3 DB from the lost coupling from moving them a bit apart from one another. My first concern is to eliminate the power valleys 30 to 45 degrees from center stage out into the crowd like what you get in the left right configurations, and less important and the second concern is stage volume. I notice a bit less stage volume and better bass fill out into the crowd with that 4th choice, the line array. So my first question would be, how far apart would you place the subs from one another in a center line? I'm guessing 6 to 18 inches? I have the subs set to produce 80 HZ and lower and would like to limit the db loss in the 50-80 HZ range, not caring if more is lost below that. I'm just hoping you could give me your best guess on that space distance between each sub. I assume that may help you determine the distance to separate the subs? Also is there any benefit to putting sub 2 and 3 together and sub 1 and 4 a bit further left of sub 2 and right of sub 3? Or do I just evenly space them to get the best version of "line setup" per your diagram of scenario #4. Last question and this would probably be the best for me at the next sub purchase. It appears that cardioid setups seem to be in combinations of 3, meaning 2 frontward and one backward. Does that mean I need either 2 more subs which would equal 6 or don't use one of my four and just use 3? Thanks so much for your answers and when giving me ballpark sub spacing for a center line setup with 4 subs, let me know if your dimension is the space between the subs or the distance from the center on one sub to the center of the next sub. My (4) JBL subs are 17.5" wide, contain 15" speakers, 1500 watts each and set at 80 HZ and below.
Did you try the cardiod or end fire configuration? Having for subs, did you try six for cardiod?
in the case of only having a nomal setup 2 speakers and 2 subs...the best way for the subs would be line? or even center could work fine?
2 subs is not technically a line, but center or center with spacing would be better than LR.
I would argue that it depends on the size of the room however and the subject material. If you were in a small to medium size room the power valleys might be so insignificant that they may only effect a handful of people. Add small signal variations to the left and right channels to actually make the signal stereophonic and this will reduce the comb filtering further and will yield significantly better coverage than a mono cluster. (Look at say 48ft on the graph so a fairly small room)
Just saying there is certainly more than one solution and energy propagation is really only a fraction of the situation!
It is inportant to realize that the SPL plots I am using are in open space. So yes, everything changes when you start to factor in walls and room sizes.
Hi,please how can I start learning this from the beginning sir?
Hi there. What should be the distance between the subs in the model line ? Thanks in advance.
That depends on several factors of your specific cabinet and driver configuration.
+MusiciansPro Thanks for your answer. Could you suggest a literature that I can calculate this distance? Thanks again. Best regards.
I would try your manufacturer first, and then Google "subwoofer configurations" and add "line" or "center", you should find pages that go over the details and math for each config. You can also download the FREE program that we use which is dB Technologies DVA Composer. Try it, learn it, and use their speakers in the program that are close to the same specs as yours. That would be better than nothing. Good luck!
Hello, I would like to ask something. How can I calcute distance between sub speakers? I have 6pcs of JBL SRX 828. I usually use 4pcs on my small stage. We are using line system, four speakers in one line before the stage. One other sound engineer told me that I should to try get space between speakers. Can you help me please? thank you
I have 4 828’s myself. I’m trying to figure out the same as well
What about left/right cardioid... how does that look?
I have run LR Cardiod before and it works great. You will essientially get a HYBRID result. Cancelation in the back, but still the weird LR summations in front with power alley/valley.
is it worth doind a cardioid set with two tops and two subs? having the sub stack in the center with one facing forward and one rear with inverted polarity?
sub are stacked side by side
Miki Do If you are delaying the front sub then yes. The front and back sub because additive from the crowd perspective so you won't be sacrificing anything while only using two subs which is important.
If they are stacked, it will work better. Not side by side. 3 subs side by side work great. Center sub will face backwards.
@@MusiciansPro but do i dont have the same lr problems between the subs?
How can this relate to home theater?
YOU NEVER INVERT PHASE, YOU INVERT POLARITY !
goofie202000 - correct, but most speakers call it phase on the switch.
BUT WE SHOULD ALWAYS USE RIGHT NAMES... PHYSICS IS SAME FOR EVERYONE :)
goofie202000 - agree, but I am simply using the name label of the actual button on “most” subs.
which software are you using to do this
Forgive me if this has already been asked but what are you using to delay the subs?
squaty1212
Im pretty sure the dbx drive rack does this also many digital mixers can add delay to a channel.
My subs have delay built in or I use the RDNet ethernet system to control each box's DSP.
Hello there, i am going to have an event. I do have 12mains ( 6 left 6 right) and 6 2x18subs. Should i stack them 3 left 3 right? Or place them side by side and give distance between them? Ps: Stage width will be 32ft.
6 subs = 3 double stacks in the middle is best.
@@MusiciansPro can I get 2x Danley th812 + 2x J6-42?
I want less gear, more output.
If I have 2 2x18 subs currently positioned L/R, would it be better to do a center or line config? Not sure how the line setup would downscale to just 2 subs. I would guess it would be better to place them right next to each other?
It would certainly be better to place CENTER. A line is several subs centered, but the outside subs delayed to create a virtual arc. It will focus the sub energy more to the center and less omni.
How to determine the line set up speaker distance from each other?
check the manual of your sub
What about L R cardioid... ? Asking for a friend
You'll have more energy going to the front, but you'll still be faced with the same power-valley-problem as in a normal LR setup.
software?
dB Technologies Composer
How many subs are required for effective application of the "in fire" configuration?I'm setting up an all new rig and i will only have 4 single 18" subs to work with.
2 located center stage. 4 if you must place them in the left and right locations (not stereo, just positions). You can also put all 4 center if you want for better results.
Please don't mention people with 2 sub set ups and then go on to explain using an 8 sub festival rig, many meters apart. You've over looked way too much information. Like go check out a 3M/4M speration graph. Centre cluster nearly always trumps but that's beside my point here.
1 sub or 4 subs per side is irrelevant to this video. The purpose of the video is the general understanding in the way low frequency waves interact with each other based on their placement.
All the technical bullshit and graphs are useless. Trust your ears. Your ears are much more reliable when searching for optimal sound.
center cluster subs are the absolute worst option
Is it possible to make a cardioid configuration using 2 simples subs or we can´t scape from the minimum of three? thnks
I would say, ideally always 3 subs, because the second sub facing the audience compensates for the spl loss created by the sub facing the stage.
Anyone backing up this argument?